As the wife of my "fallen" pastor, I've searched for more than 7yrs, "Where do we go from here?" Neither of us dream of him ever pastoring again. It's living with the shame (it is truly ever before us) and feeling so incredibly lost. We've attended 3 churches since leaving the ministry and our church family 7yrs ago. More than the loss of the ministry, we grieve not having fellowship with believers. We both would appreciate a man/men who would come up beside him and offer to hold him accountable. It seems unheard of. One pastor told us that maybe we should move away. Besides the fact that our kids and grandkids and elderly parents are here where we've lived all our lives, we long for healing, for shame to fade and relationships to be even somewhat restored. Your answer is so very helpful. And I thank you. This is hard and ugly. Still. I keep thinking, if only God could use this...
Stay put and keep moving forward. It's not a matter of how others treat us, but how we treat others. Those within the church that remain hard hearted towards another believer (post repentance) has a bigger problem than the one with the original sin issue. Church politics is why I fellowship with believers outside the traditional churches.
So sorry you have had to endure this. I hope that your husband has since found secular work to make a living. And I hope you can find a church where you will be welcomed as lay people and members.
@@BaronReed-rj9rzA church member was doing inappropriate things in my house while I was away without my knowledge. I will never trust her again and a year later I’m just now in the process of church discipline over a very confusing situation. That person will never gain my trust back. Her presence at church is extremely awkward especially since, for a year, I was the only person who knew what she did and what she was (aka false) since I did not gossip or slander her for a year. It is sad but she should have never put me in a position to distrust her! Period!!
It sounds like your husband disqualified himself from church leadership, but that does not mean he disqualified himself from God's forgiveness. It is crazy to think that the only people serving God are on church staffs. Every genuine follower of Christ is in full-time ministry.
1 Timothy 3:2 (KJV) - A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Titus 1:6 (KJV) - If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. God makes it plain. If you cannot rule your household well, you cannot be a pastor. Period. Either submit to God's will, or follow traditions of man. It is our choice. Good message.
Please continue to tell us how you're leadership has always been flawless. Repentant men can never lead again? You think JESUS only uses perfect people for HIS ministry? I think you're missing the forest for the trees.. much like the who knew the LIVING WORD, but didn't recognize it when it stood in front of them.
Thank you for this! I love how this was put honestly, firmly, gently, and with wisdom. Too many people want to slap the grace sticker on sin, call it done, and want to get back to the ministry status that they fell from. I feel like a broken record when I tell them that worrying about your ministry should be the farthest thing from a truly repentant heart. It isn't negating grace to say so. We should yearn and hope for true repentance for the sake of the soul and for those injured by the sin. I appreciate the humility with which this teaching was delivered.
Yeah…and my pastor “counseled” my wife in a park after picking her up at another location and hiding her car behind a hotel..several times…and meeting her downtown…and outlet malls…basically dated my wife. All for “counseling”. What a blessing to have such a shepherd so dedicated to his flock !!
Thank you for an excellent podcast. I entered my first church knowing that the previous pastor committed adultery. The church was hurting so badly. It took years before healing was possible.
Never forget: when we are truly repentant and of a broken heart, God forgives us and casts the sin away as far as the east is from the west. It is only man who remembers and refuses to let go of it.
I appreciate how well you thought out this video. I agree that time is an important factor and that if our biggest question is, "how long before I can preach again" we are not focused on the right thing. If that is our main focus and priority then, yes, it is the wrong question. However, it is an important question because the fallen Pastor is trying to gauge what the process of restoration looks like and trying to set some type of expectation. I think it is a bit of a cop out when our response is, "a significant amount of time." Time is a valid expectation, however, it is not the most helpful answer (if the conversation ends there). I believe you are right in the fact that unrepentant mindset is the biggest factor of qualifications for ministry. If we are relentlessly pursuing God, we are not "sitting in unrepentance." It is very possible to be dealing with a sin and following Christ. Every Christian has sin. Even the most well meaning Pastor has sin in their life. I believe the difference is recognizing and bringing that before Christ rather than hiding it and pretending it doesn't exist. I truly appreciate this video and the message you deliver. In my ministry now, years after my own fall, I believe that Romans 11:29 makes it clear the call never goes away. However, not every one will return to the Pulpit and that is okay. Preaching in front of a church is not the only ministry God calls people to pursue. I will always have my past sin to deal with but the grace and mercy that comes only from Jesus Christ is bigger than any of that. Many times Christians judge others to take the focus off of their own sin instead of using it as a moment to help each other live out our Christian lives more effectively. Pride and selfishness seem to be the two biggest factors in all sin.
One of the biggest issues in the church at present is the church itself We have become PC and do not shine as beacons and cities on the hill We all know the world is on a downhill spiral as noted in the Word However we should be shouting from the rooftops THe Truth so others will know the Truth and it will set them free and come to know and love Jesus
It's foolish, arrogant even, to assume we know our own sins fully, both the sins of comission and omission, including our thought lives. Most think of cognition, being aware of sin, then by will repenting as the definition of "I'm pleasing to God now". But our sin is way more pervasive than that. Forgivness based on what I do ... no one would ever be saved. Have a deep meditation on Gal 6:2 with the parable of the Sheep and the goats in Mt. 25. The sheep don't look for repentance, they give no thought to self, but carry others burdens. That describes very few churches. So, who are the goats?
What is funny (😢sorrow)about this for my case is mine left me for becoming a Christian over 30y ago and church people still hold it against me. But I keep living for Jesus because at the end of the day Iam serving Jesus.The thing that goes threw my mind all the time is how you measure others will be measured unto you. So keep serving a audience of One not once! . It’s enough no mater what people say.
I appreciate everything you had to say, leadership is so important and leaders are to be held to a higher standard, but in saying that there is no thus saith the Lord on if and when a Pastor could be restored two serving in that position again. I think King David is a good example even though there were continual consequences for his past sin he never stopped being King, but most importantly David truly repented, there has to be true repentance.
That is a bad comparison. David was not a priest - he was a king. That was Old Testament - we live under the new covenant. The American concept of "pastor" is not even in the Bible. The Bible shows us elders and overseers and to qualify for that position, you had to be "above reproach." Sounds like you are placing far too much emphasis on "Ministry" as a career. He should find God's forgiveness and ask God to show him how to support his family.
@@rodrocketon9480 I'll have to respectfully disagree, under the New testament even more so forgiveness. I know that the word Pastor and Elder are closely related but Eph 4:11 seems to indicate that Pastor is more of a spiritual gift. If you were to split hairs on "above reproach" that is one of the requirements for elders everyone has their issues. Remember David was a man after God's own heart.
@@DS-md7jn The word would more accurately be translated "Shepherd." But nowhere in Scripture do we find the modern western paradigm of "pastor" as this church manager who is designated to deliver a monologue once or twice a week. Paul makes it clear the Elders/Overseers are to lead and guide the church. One of the worst things that ever happened to the church was "pastor" becoming a career choice. Every follower of Christ is called to "full-time ministry." Jesus sent his followers OUT to GO with the Gospel. We sit and wait for people to show up and hear the next "sermon series."
@@rodrocketon9480 I agree with you that every believer is a full time minister in Christ, but preaching/teaching is a gift, but back to the original point of this conversation that a pastor who has committed adultery cannot be restored back to that position, after repentance and some time taken off is just not true and there is no thus saith the Lord in Scripture that would support your view that he cannot at some point continue as a pastor/Elder.
@@DS-md7jn 2 "Therefore an overseer must be above reproach" I timothy 3:2 At some point the guys in the pulpit have to start practicing what they are preaching. They are trampling on the grace of God.
@@blynkers1411 Actually, the BIBLE completely agrees with this statement. 7 For an overseer,[f] as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound[g] doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. Titus 1:7-9
@@rodrocketon9480 Did the Lord Jesus Himself, the Most HOLY One, not receive ministry from a HARLOT in Luke 7, when she washed His feet (SHE MINISTERED TO HIM) with her hair? No, sorry. The original statement is arrogant, overreaching and Scripturally uninformed. Nothing is impossible with God. He can send "ministry" to us by the hand of whomever He wishes, whether they're "taking holiness more seriously" or not. Whether or not we can receive that ministry has more to do with our humility and willing submission to the ministering hand of God, than it does with how we're "taking holiness". How about the Canaanite harlot who ministered to the Israelites in Joshua 2. You think she was more serious about holiness than the Israelites, God's Chosen, "Set Aside" (holy) People, who in that moment were actually obeying God's commands and aligned with Him? No. She was absolutely unholy - she was not only a prostitute, but a Canaanite under the imminent judgment of God Himself. Yet God used her to MINISTER to the Israeli spies. The Scriptures do NOT teach what "Martin" posted, and listing qualifications for "Overseers", Biblical though they may be, does not argue that what he posted OR what he meant is correct according to the Bible.
@@blynkers1411 Uh, CONTEXT. In the video, he specifically addresses whether or not pastors are disqualified from serving in that role after committing adultery. So, your post has some truth but "missed the mark." I definitely believe in the priesthood of all believers but Paul laid out specific qualifications for overseers/elders in congregations (I Timothy 3 and Tutus). I have addressed elsewhere on here the fact that the current American concept of pastor is not even found in the Bible. Someone (maybe Francis Chan) has said that if Martians read the Bible and then landed on earth in the middle of a church service they would be utterly confused by the difference between what they read about the church in the Bible and what was taking place.
@@rodrocketon9480 Are you seriously operating at a "Francis Chan" level in this discussion? Because if you are, and if Martin's statement is true, then it would explain why I'm having trouble receiving this "ministry" from you. But I will argue for you that Martin's statement is still not true Scripturally on it's face - especially in context with the video. And this means that you have hope to minister to those who take holiness more seriously than you do - especially if you're going reference Francis Chan.
No doubt, adultry is a sin that should keep one from pastoral ministry, if only for a season. But there is a sin that is creeping into our churches that is much more serious: the sin of failing to preach the gospel All of the New Testament writers emphasized the importance of the gospel. Paul went so far as to say, "I have determined not to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." A pastor who preaches "Christian philosophy," "Social ills" or anything other than the gospel is not worthy of the office.
I agree. We live in perilous times when even the professional so-called ministers won't endure sound doctrine but have become teachers of the doctrines of devils. Worst of all, it has infiltrated every denomination, but not every congregation. It is very telling that so many buy their sermons online instead of being inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Sitting in a pew as a listener of preaching, the absence and silence on the full gospel message (simply repentance and forgiveness of sin) that silence is deafening. They so badly do not want to risk offending anyone at all and to keep it a so-called "safe pasture". But is that "safe", not preaching the full truth in love ?
Proverbs 6:32-33 NASB95 The one who commits adultery with a woman is lacking sense; He who would destroy himself does it. [33] Wounds and disgrace he will find, And his reproach will not be blotted out. A man with such a great commision(Pastor or Elder) will most likely never serve again if they commit adultery; his reputation will be ruined for a very long time.
The standard (1st Tim 3 and Titus 1) is the standard. If a man isn't a one woman man, he's disqualified, full stop. That's not to say he can't be forgiven but it does mean he can't be an elder.
I'm curious why, of all the requirements listed in both chapters, that you only mentioned that part about multiple women. Peter was fallen and then restored. There's no reason and from what I can tell in the word, to believe disqualification is permanent.
So a sin committed by Peter that's listed in those chapters doesn't permanently dq him but adultery does for someone else? That doesn't make any sense. Peter can't be forgiven for one on the list and someone else not forgiven for breaking another.
There are lots of great things and wise points to take away from this. Permanent disqualification is not biblical, but an altered life is. King David is probably the most pronounced example of this, and being the king of a nation is more than being a pastor of a church. I certainly agree that unrepentant sin and a way of life should have someone removed. As shared in this video, that person needs to be serious about following Jesus. Seems like man need not be unforgiving and not harden their heart towards anyone who falls, including pastors. But yes, a proven life deomnstrating that Jesus os the goal, etc...well said. I agree.
I agreed…mostly. But, I always find it quite interesting that adultery is always addressed but a pastor’s pride is hardly ever mentioned. You can make an argument that pride is the greatest and most insidious sin of all - it’s literally NEVER mentioned when I hear this topic about who is “qualified” to preach. God does not call the qualified, He qualifies the called. That said, these so-called list of qualifications in the pastoral epistles are “characteristics” not qualifications. It is about the person in the pulpit’s character and if they can be effective in pastoral ministry - if they can earnestly shepherd the LORD’s flock.
@@mateenfoster4595 it does seem that way in some denominations. That goes for the music and other positions in the church. Seen too much of that in the last 40+ years. Too much 1st hand personal experience.
@@danielsmith5032 more than likely from what she has personally seen because I agree 100% with her. I’ve been an outsider and I’ve been married to a pastor’s son. It’s two different worlds and it shouldn’t be.
Exactly. I think pride is the root of sin actually. Lucifer fell because of his pride. The Bible explains many times that the humble will be lifted up and the proud will be abased. When I was a teenager growing up in church, the pastor felt he needed to single me out during his messages because I was a musician playing secular music with my buddies on weekends. Went on for a while, he didn't change my mind and the church was starving spiritually...then he got caught embezzling money from the church. He never set foot in a church again as far as I know. For the rest of his life, he blamed the church for ruining his ministry, and his attitude was the church's bank account was his to use as he pleased because he was the pastor. Another preacher at a revival after that had the same problem with me playing secular music. A few years later, he got caught sleeping with a church member who was not his wife, but someone else. A prideful person will always be quick to point a finger but never examine themself. The funny thing about my example here is playing secular music has enabled me to witness to a lot of people who needed to hear about God's grace and Christ's payment for sin. I'm no better than those two pastors, or anyone for that matter. But I do believe God gave me a gift that I can use to lift His Word up where it needs to be heard, and I pray that I always humble myself so He can use me for His glory no matter where I am. Prideful pastors need to study the OT and read why the high priest had to put his own sins under the blood before he stepped into the Holy Place.
Simply put... God forgives but the trust man of is not so easily recovered. Ironic we preach repentance and Mercy and that God forgives yet we (the fallen vessel) are so harsh on each other that when one falls they are shamed and unforgiven but in time are forgiven IF they go through the process of repentance in the face of public shame...BUT Jesus forgives. Cold game.
Yes, that is sadly true. I have experienced this with someone who used to visit my former church in Des Moines, IA. Through my experiences with him, I am still learning the lesson of loving enemies. My associate pastor asserted your exact point about how forgiveness does not mean instant restoration of trust and respect. Even within the church, first impressions count in forming friendships. Those connections are built on a foundation of mutual trust and respect. Once trust has been broken, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to restore, as you have addressed. Even if it were reestablished, the relationship would never be the same.
@@verentyee5413 the Christian experience can be an eye opener when you realize the perception of perfection is not all fully true. Christians Nope sinners saved by God trying to live daily away from past sins...not always easy.
amen, its unrepentant sin that's the main issue, not whether or not disqualification is permanent. nothing permanently disqualifies, cause if that's the case, you would be saying that God's grace is limited and cannot redeem a fallen pastor. the notion articulated, that as long as the sin is not sufficiently repented of, and as long as the sin is more notorious than the reputation of a repentant godly pastor, a person is not fit to pastor, and needs more time to repent, that is a very good notion. amen to more personal repentance for all men, yes LORD and amen!
Being a woman is a permanent disqualification, and that not because of sin. They're not disqualified for what they are not, God just gave them something better, more important to do. The reason men are to love them as Christ loved the church. Not having a wife is a disqualification. So too, that's not sin. Not trying to stop the crime is complicity too. Got divorced in your church? All pastors now look out on a sea of adultery. Yet they make elders and pastors disregardful of that qualification all the time, that's just chauvinism in action. And truly an insult to woman. And then this, interestingly enough, coming to us from liberal Colorado, but spot on correct: "According to Colorado law, complicity is when someone is legally accountable for another person's criminal actions. This can happen if the person aids, abets, advises, or encourages the other person to plan or commit the crime, with the intent to promote or facilitate the offense.". And, the compliciter can be charged with the very crime they gave consent to. And then there are the very biblical "duty to report" laws. Laws that primarily protect women and children. In the absence of the church doing that. Looks to me like nobody's qualified qualified. ---------- Consider I had a pastor that used to teach the very thing this guy is teaching. He was big on espousing the death penalty, especially for homosexuals. He had a little church. He taught tithing, sabbath observation, neothetic counseling, Christian reconstructionism, thought that Calvin's 5 points weren't enough, but Calvin actually had 10 points. Then, he built a house of cards string of mortgages buying rental property preparing for a retirement. He basically sent everyone to hell who left or tried to leave without hiding under a hidden agenda of something like a geographic relocation. Those who honestly spoke their minds, he twisted their heads. Disqualified? He never was. And he had been told that by several elder boards. The elders were compliciters to a disqualified man being in the office of the teaching elder. The whole denomination was. ---------- Sins a fellow cannot get off of himself? I suspect this pastor, like most, doesn't know anything about PTSD. They think they do, by calling every aberrant problem a man struggles with sin. . But the real sin isn't those calling the sinner a sinner but the judges and their inability to keep the law of Christ towards that person. Gal 6:2. There's a reason why people like combat veterans prefer an AA meeting over a church meeting. Recommended reading "The body keeps the score" by Bessel Van Der Klock. The way to take the Lord's table in an unworthy manner? 1. Think of it as superfluous to what you need. Basically thinking you're good and you don't need the Lord's table. I.e. that you have arrived at full repentance and are therefore worthy Which often looks like people jumping through the hoops of partaking, because they're repentance has made them worthy - they think. 2. Trying to write checks on an empty bank account, metaphorically. It is our nature that disqualifies us. Rmns 7 I would much prefer a sinning pastor who cries with Paul, then one who thinks they are worthy or repentant. "How many times should I forgive my brother?" David and Bathsheba, and the associated murder - Christ did not remove him from being king over Israel. There were consequences for certain, but he didn't get fired. Moses was not disqualified for having been a murderer. The apostle Paul too, he was a mass murderer. Go to the Hall of Faith and look at all the failures of the men there. Every one of them committed doozies. The question isn't whether or not a sinner can be a pastor, but if some cohort of Christians can install over them the pastor of their choosing. Who is this guy to tell anyone who they can choose as their pastor? Excellent model of what a pastor should be? See UA-cam "Monty Roberts join up". Women watching him work, often faint. Today's kids - are the most un-mothered, not sheparded by a father, people who have ever walked the face of the Earth. Pornography comes to them at unbelievably young ages. Who shall preach Grace? Better - call no one father but God. "Here is what we seek, a compassion that can stand in awe at the burdens the poor carry, rather than in judgment at how they carry them". Gregory Boyle. There is precious little of that coming to me from any "pastor." There is precious little of that coming to me from any "pastor." Yet restoring that was the beginning opening salvo of John the Baptist "he will restore the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers", That's where the Christian ethic we read of in 1st Corinthians chapter 1 starts. We are qualified for the Lord's table for the same reason we are qualified to be with him in heaven. He came to us. Jn 6:60-71
Let's Peter as an example one moment he denies Christ even to the point of cursing what can be bigger than denying you know Christ but yet 50 days later he preaches on the day of Pentecost
I would personally say that IMO, any type of sexual sin from a pastor or leadership should permanently disqualify them. This is from personal experience. I know a former pastor who (related by marriage) was caught with a prostitute and arrested. Of course he immediately was relieved of his pastoral duties. He was quoted in the paper as saying that his wife had back problems and that was the only way he could relieve himself! REALLY?! He never pastored again but I think he preached a few places. However, a few years later his son told me he had found porn hidden under the sofa and he didn’t know if he should tell his mom or not. I don’t know what happened there. He had also mentioned that he thinks when he was a kid his dad wasn’t allowed to preach for awhile. I had gotten vibes way back that maybe he was molesting his young granddaughters (now grown). His son asked one day how do you know when to believe a girl when she says she’s been molested. My answer: YOU JUST BELIEVE HER! So now I’m wondering if he did molest the girls because they don’t come around or bring their kids around the grandparents. Even since he has died they still refuse to visit with the grandma. So again, IMO, I’m not sure sexual sin is ever overcome. Not saying it’s impossible but I think it’s rare.
What if those who have committed sexual crimes? A person with that in his history has just been allowed to minister to college students and it has caused division in our ministry. I was told I’m being harsh and we all sin, but a man that has sexually assaulted a woman shouldn’t be a leader in ministry to college kids. In my opinion.
If you ask about how long before you can preach again, you're not repentant. If you judge others' reaction to judging your sin, you're not repentant. When you fall to sin, you do not determine when you are redeemed and get to return to the pulpit. If anyone is afforded any ministry, that is God's providence - grace upon grace. You don't grasp it. You don't ask for it. You don't carry it out secretively.
This video seems to be very eisegetical and based on the makers opinions. As a previous commenter said the exegetical answer (at least to my knowledge) is 1 Tim 3 and Tit 1. I’m open to hearing scriptures to back up this video, but I worry this teaching puts an undue focus on “notorious” sins and ignores “respectable” sins. For example, is a pastor who is a glutton guilty of unrepentant sin? Is he any less incapable of shepherding a flock than an adulterer? It would seem the answer is they are both hindered, but the teaching of this video would likely lead to ignoring the latter case. To be clear my point is that we are all sinners this side of eternity, and a teaching of this type has the potential to lead us down a legalistic and self-righteous path where we claim, “this man can be a pastor because he has eliminated the ‘bad’ sins unlike that man who has ‘bad’ sins.” When the reality is any two people both still have unrepentant sin that the Lord hasn’t fixed yet.
I’m curious about this idea of permanent disqualification. It seems to me that the concept of original sin claims a person is sin marked from birth, then at some point they repent and come to Christ and are regenerated, (or if you’re a Calvinist the order of these may be different;-) Simple sin is missing a target one intends to hit. Transgression is willful trespass into the forbidden. Iniquity is the soul sickness that submits one’s self to the dominion of sin. So if God loved us while we were sinners, and then we come to Him, and then afterwards we go back into some sin, it seems that this sin can and should be forgiven. Yet it seems to me that the answer here is dependent on a people’s ability to forgive and overlook or pardon something moreso than God’s ability. This question must be answered biblically and not based on society’s ever shifting capacity to forgive. One culture might not see something as so big of a deal as another. One congregation or region may have knowledge of a thing, or feel more sensitive to it because of the closeness of it, while just going to another congregation or region will “solve” the problem. Even if they find out about the sin they may be able to “forgive” it because it wasn’t personal, ie: they themselves didn’t directly suffer the pain of the betrayal. Unfortunately it seems as though this answer is very much based on a people’s capacity for forgiveness rather than on God’s Word. I agree, it would be very difficult to forgive a pastor of some transgression, and yet the problem there is my own inability to forgive someone who is repentant. After all, Christ said to forgive the repentant. A major problem we have in the Church is the refusal to understand Matthew chapter 18. He said, “if he repents, forgive him” and yet today we teach that we should forgive someone who hasn’t repented, and then we reduce forgiveness to merely cleansing one’s own self of bitter feelings while we still hold a “record of wrongs” against the person. And then even if they do repent we still hold it against them. This is a wicked society with a wicked and wayward inability to forgive someone who has sinned and repented. The person who does not forgive does not love his brother and has forgotten how much he was forgiven. We are talking about someone who IS repentant. What I’m hearing however is that even if a person IS repentant, they cannot be reinstated because people are unable to forgive. So just get all your junk outta the way before you come to Christ because once you’re saved you need to keep up appearances, because what they don’t know won’t hurt, yet what they DO know will permanently ruin you. What about a past sin that happened after you were saved but before you were a pastor? After all, you people believe in progressive sanctification, so any sin that happens along the way must be understood as “he just wasn’t that sanctified yet”… so then, a pastor must be more sanctified to sin less… Lord, save us from the unbelieving professors of Christ. I do agree with some of your ideas but it isn’t self-righteousness to insist that someone else obeys Jesus. Self righteous means “I am made right by my own self”. So you have chosen the wrong term. But it seems the lower someone grovels the more satisfied the accusers.
When restoring the prodigal son, did the father sit around waiting for the son to take off again, did he threaten the son "If you do that again", did he hold himself, the father, aloof and far off waiting to see if the son really wanted to come home? So why teach that pariable? It leads people to repentance. The Pharisees used the law to extract their pound of flesh.
The story of the prodigal Son is not about the prodigal son it's about the Father and his attitude towards forgiveness and repentance. Whatever church you're in - If we go back generations, how did the first cohort of people become "a church?" Every group of people puts somebody in charge, it's just the way it is... There is nothing distinctive about how the church picks elders versus how gangs pick shoot collars. I'm certain there are pastors and elders amongst the goats of Matthew 25. They are actually probably over-represented in the goats and underrepresented in the sheep. I see that after a lifetime of incredible disappointment in so-called elders and pastors. Despite their fatheads and big egos, they ain't squat.
We want immediate forgiveness and immediate repentance. Rarely are either immediate and that shows you how far off the mark out optics of forgiveness are.
@@MrRickybhere Then go watch a different video. Clearly you're not the individual who needed this. You've never desired forgiveness from another, or offered it?
Do we remember King David most often by his sin with Bathsheba? Or do we remember him because of the Psalms associated with him? The answer is some associate him most often with Bathsheba, others with the Psalms, still others with the good produced through God, from God, out of his life with Bathsheba... but all remember him as a man of God, indeed a man after God's own Heart. ========== Still similarly, do we associate King Solomon with his thousands of concubines and hundreds of wives? or do we associate him with Wisdom and the Temple. Now here are some grey areas where not everyone has arrived at the purest answer concerning... Do we associate king Nebuchadnezzar with idolatry and excessive wars for which God used him for judgement, and he excused himself by consideration of being a tool of divine justice? Or do we associate him with his awe of God and sincere repentance noted in Daniel 4. Or do we even associate him with the Spirit of God filling the whole heavens and earth, per Jer 23:23-24 and Deut. 32, and yet further with Laughter's blessing on the voice of Jacob/Abel and the Flesh of Esau/Adam in Gen. 27 and 33:10? The answer seems to be in complicated derision among many, but pure in Daniel's heart, Christ's (Lamentations 4:20, 2 Cor 13:5), and God's. Do we associate Balaam with his loyalty to Balak's hatred and love of cursing? and with his stubbornness against the donkey's intuition? or do we associate him with being a genuine prophet of God at the times of His choosing, spilling forth some of the most powerful prophecies of Jesus's coming in scripture, and with God's causing him to bless instead of curse... bringing forth what was truly in his heart instead of what Balak wanted... even with consideration of Balaam's own evils. What do we associate Job's friends with? or the whirlwind with? what or whom do we associate Job with? is it his answer and his friends answers in Job 42? specifically nuance filled wording of Job 42:7? Do we associate Pharaoh, the spiritual line and title of pharaoh with mercy on Joseph and Moses, and genuine love of all that God is with and through them and all that they are? or do we associate Pharaoh with only the last abusive pharaohs before the Exodus and with Leviathan (when Ezekiel speaks of his scales and such and Oholah and Oholibah [names]). Do we associate Leviathan with being God's pet, sort of a tool, and The Authors plot device for character growth, from and within The Author's own mind expressly under His command and allowance (Isaiah 45)? and with God's light within him? making him no more than a vehicle, and mask of God's presence and a place of refuge for "the dove (names)" of Jonah? Or do we associate him only with great terror and fear and with pride, Lucifer, the king of Babylon and Tyre, and with Satan? Or do we associate him with King Nebuchadnezzar, Hiram, and the Pharaoh of Genesis, or Exodus, whom if his face is seen again, one may surely die... did God not go with the Israelites when they left Egypt? What of Lazarus and Hezekiah's sickness? The sundial of Ahaz and, Sodom [name], Melchizedek, and the secret place of The Almighty? What of the Babylonian emissaries and the Word of God? The Riches of Israel and Jerusalem, even Samaria [Names]? Who [Asher, Exodus 3:14] went before Israel and Jacob to prepare a place for them in the belly of the beast? Was it Serach/Serah, the daughter of Asher? (Gen. 49:20, 33)? What do the wolves of Benjamin (Gen 49:27) and Ashurbanipal or the names of his father and brother and their nations or cities have to do with anything? What of Joseph in Egypt? Gen 42:7, 42:23 What [Mah] is the meaning of water [Mayim]?! Is the right eye for far sight or near sight? and if so, what is the right arm for? extending or guarding? recieving or stabalizing? What did Hoshea do in Hoshea 1? What does Jesus, Esau/Edom/Adam [Aleph prefix + the word dam] and the book of Revelation have to do with Hoshea 13 and Isaiah 63? What does Revelation 13 have to do with Book 6, Chapter 6, Verse 6 and the name Adonikam in Ezra 2:13? Anything at all? or nothing? or something... is scripture an unbroken tapestry? Now there is an eternal riddle... the greatest riddle in scripture which leads to the revelation of Christ and the Gospel (John 20:21-23). Do not think that my questions and answers come as adversarial to you, nor question you... but indeed reveal the truths you've just brought forth with inspired gratitude and a sharpened sword (1 Samuel 21)! Thankyou! Great video!
It doesn't matter how YOU think of these saints. It's up to the congregation to decide whether they accept a former adulterer as a pastor. And any congregation is well within their rights to reject such a man as their pastor.
We are a society raised wrong. If we from our youth were taught by our parents and elders and pastors to forgive the repentant we would be far more equipped for restoration, instead we rely on Time to heal wounds.
I would have a hard time sitting under the teaching of a pastor that committed adultery. What does repentance look like? Is it restoration with his wife or just him being sorry? Can there be repentance if the pastor marries the woman he had an affair with?
If reputation is so important to determine an adulterous pastor's situation, then surely it is in the interests of the church to NOT disclose a pastor's adultery? After all, the less people know the better. Of course such an argument is wrong. And I'm concerned that reputation will be used to cover up pastoral sins.
I do not believe there is any sin that would permanently disqualify someone from being a pastor that is saying that God's grace wouldn't cover that sin
I agree with some of this but you didn’t give scripture on why a man who falls has to wait so long to return to the pulpit. I believe in restoration,. David prayed, ‘Against thee and only thee have I sinned’
This isn't "thus saith the Lord" it is practical wisdom that has scriptural basis. The qualifications for an elder say he must be above reproach. Yes we should forgive, but a lot of healing has to be done and trust restored first.
Time is the excuse of atheists. It will take a long long long time for a creature to evolve from one thing to another. Etc…. It will take a long long long time to really go through repentance. The magic of Time! We as a people are poorly equipped for the ministry of reconciliation and restoration because we have been taught that it is Time that heals wounds, not the Father. The truth isn’t that it takes a long time to go through repentance, but rather Time is the magical cure for a cold and forgetful heart.
How long did Jonah have to wait to preach again after he sinned? I dont mean this unkind because this senior minister gives some very good advice, but many times man oversteps thier "displinary" actions when only God can forgive and restore. The nursing home and the pulpit are both sharing the Gospel.
What about Pastors that are over weight, obese even, they will have a heart attack and die and leave a family in ruins and a church because they did not take appropriate steps tp guard themselves and their families and the church they will leave behind.
@@jonyoung6405 While I largely despise television evangelist that preach prosperity gospel and get rich off of the tithes and offerings, and despise the practice of pastors getting paid large sums of money just for a speaking engagment. Writing books and speaking engagments are what people all over the world gwt paid for, from realestate to how to live a better life, to health and fitness, so when a pastor, a christian writes a book as long as it theologically sound, and it is if a benefit for the body, how a person makes their money is fine, as long as it is legit and theologically sound it has no play on if someone is fit to hold the office of pastor, which was what this was about.
I agree with somethings he says but no where in the Bible does it say you can't continue being a pastor. Now if a pastor is caught in sin and doesn't want to repent then yes he should step down. If he is in the middle of a divorce he should step down and deal with it. Biblically speaking Look at David.look at Moses. Both did bad things under God but they were not removed from their position. So we understand that yes the goal should be resored with God and the church and if he has truly repented, then i don't think that he should be permanently disqualified. Ppl lets not supercede Gods word over church bi laws.
I believe you do have wisdom, but I wonder about the Apostle Paul. He was a leader in the Jewish religion, he believed he was walking in full knowledge of God. Yes he was transformed on his journey when he met Christ. But honestly I can’t think of anyone who had more sin that was ultimately to the highest level of being egregious as you say, but look at what occurred. It could be said his use as a leader came despite the full knowledge of his sin. I ultimately believe it is in Gods timing and full knowledge of everything, that he so chooses to use others, in whatever capacity he so creates. So we have remember never to count out Gods calling to anyone.
Paul also walked with Jesus for three years before his public ministry and was affirmed by Barnabas and other Jerusalem leaders. That (prior sentence) speaks to the long road Dr. York is referring to while not discounting what you've stated. Part of Paul's repentance was his private preparation for public ministry. We must remember those three years of discipleship.
@@paullaso3645 yes there are the 3 yrs of discipleship. I just have issues with certain people saying someone can’t be used because of past. Let’s be honest here, unless Gods equip you, any ministry will be a disaster. So let’s just let God lead and stop defining in man’s eyes when Someone is able or not.
Great question. I think it depends on the circumstances. There are some circumstances that warrant leaving the church if a pastor gets divorced, and there are some circumstances that don't warrant leaving the church if a pastor gets divorced. I think if a pastor's marriage ends in divorce because the pastor's spouse was abusive towards him, the pastor's spouse cheated on him, the pastor and his spouse weren't compatible (sometimes people make the mistake of marrying someone they aren't compatible with, and it's important for 2 people to be compatible in order for a marriage to work out.), etc, I don't think someone should leave a church over something like that. I would hire a divorced person to be a pastor of a church, but I'd definitely thoroughly investigate the circumstances surrounding the divorce before considering a divorced person to be a pastor. I believe in hiring divorced pastors whose marriages ended in divorce due to the pastor's spouse being abusive, due to the pastor's spouse cheating on him, and due to the pastor and his spouse not being compatible. I wouldn't hire a pastor whose marriage ended in divorce due to the pastor being abusive, due to the pastor being an unrepentant serial adulterer, etc. I wouldn't hire a pastor that divorced his wife due to her getting less attractive, getting paralyzed, etc. If someone was an unrepentant serial adulterer before they became saved, and they have been saved for 20 years, and they aren't an unrepentant serial adulterer anymore, they're a strong Christian, they're a new creation, they don't act like how they were before they were saved, etc, I think someone like that is qualified to be a pastor of a church.
I found your understanding to be very interesting. Time I do agree is not the answer but true repentance. Let us say that a church does not wish to have him as their pastor because of this past sin, have they not forgave him as Christ forgives us? There is not a pastor yet that can stand sinless before their flock. Now are we going to begin to rate sins 1 to 10? If that preacher has moved away and a church has ask him to preach, does he go full blown into his sins? I say no, because you have ask for repentance and you have seeked God in all His mercy and grace… then stop carrying that sin with you everywhere you go. Satan would love for us to keep our sins in our minds and heart even after forgiveness, because it would destroy the testimony God has put in our lives.
(I didn't watch the video.) If an elder (or whatever term you wish to use) is found to be in a serious sin, like adultery. Then I'd say that individual should be removed from that position for a long time. You can forgive them instantly, but that person must demonstrate over a period of time (personally, a few years at least) that they can be trusted. Their sin was serious and they broke trust with the congregation by keeping the sin hidden. If they were caught in the adultery, then they kept it hidden as long as they possibly could.
I understand your view on this. I’m not saying or even thinking you are wrong in saying what you did. I concur with making sure that person has repented and began to rebuild that what was lost. Satan would love to destroy every preachers testimony even if he could tell everyone about the “little lie” that was spoken in time of prevented hurt feelings. I hope we can always look toward the cross for that forgiveness and grace Jesus gave to us all that day on that hill called Calvary. I really hope that any preacher that has fallen from the position of leader of the church can forgive himself for his transgressions.
What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below. New Covenant Whole Gospel: Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him. He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36) We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. 1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those in the New Covenant. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Watch the UA-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay. ============================================================================================================= Old Covenant Baptism vs. New Covenant Baptism (water vs. Spirit) Water baptism was a part of the Old Covenant system of ritual washing. The Old Covenant priests had to wash before beginning their service in the temple. (Ex. 30:17-30) When Christ was water baptized by His cousin John in the Jordan River, He was under the Old Covenant system. He also only ate certain foods, and wore certain clothes, as prescribed by the 613 Old Covenant laws. Christ was water baptized by John and then received the Holy Spirit from heaven. The order is reversed in the New Covenant. A person receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion, and then believers often declare their conversion to their friends and family through a water baptism ceremony. Which baptism makes you a member of Christ’s Church? The New Covenant conversion process is described below. (Born-again) Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (A person must “hear” the Gospel, and “believe” the Gospel, and will then be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit.) Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (See Jer. 31:34 for the New Covenant promise, and 1 John 2:27 for the fulfillment) ============ Which baptism is a part of the salvation process, based on what the Bible says? What did Peter say below? Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and is found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. Unfortunately, many modern Christians see water when they read the word "baptize" in the text. Based on the above, what is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below? How many times is the word "Spirit" found in the passage, and how many times is the word "water" found in the passage? Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, (See 1 Cor. 12:13) “baptize” KJV Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Water or Holy Spirit?, See Eph. 1-13.) Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Joh_1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 1Co_1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (See Eph. 4:1-5) Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. (Old Covenant ----> New Covenant) How many people have been saved by the Old Covenant water baptism of John the Baptist? Who did John the Baptist say is the greatest Baptist that ever lived in Luke 3:16? What kind of New Covenant baptism comes from Christ?
How many people have committed adultery with their eye? What about Pastors who losr their temper or eat too much and dont exercise self control? Why pick on one sin? if a pastor is truly repentant, why cant he be restored?
Where are the Scriptures that state a fallen pastor can not be restored ever again for any specific sin? I'm not saying I disagree that someone should never be trusted with leadership again. I am, however, asking where the biblical mandate for this is written. The word, "permanently," when it comes to disqualification, isn't found in Scripture. Are we not aware of Christian leaders who have committed incredibly horrendous acts be used by God for tremendous impact for the Kingdom? Because permanent disqualification is an unbiblical concept (not always inappropriate per se, but unbiblical, meaning it's not mandated in the bible), could imposing this rob the redemption story God may want to show and tell? Could this be a self-righteous and pretentious act that snuffs out what God intends to do through this? It could be argued that Peter was, in fact, a believer when he denied Jesus, not once, but three times, as he looked Jesus right in His eyes. Is this a permanent disqualification? Paul felt as though he was the "Chief" of all sinners (present tense by the way, although he could've been referring to his pre-Christ life, but I don't think so). He viewed all sin as spitting in the face of Christ and all of his good deeds as "dung." He said there was nothing good in him, except the Spirit. Thus, this concept of permanent disqualification smells of pretentious and religious snobbiness from those who have, perhaps, never had a major debilitating struggle or event in their past. True or untrue? I don't know, but that's how it comes across to me. Can anyone name one person in the Bible who was permanently disqualified due to sin? If not Scripture, then what basis is this built upon? If you say wisdom, then who's wisdom? I am not attacking. This is written with a soft and sincere attitude. If I'm wrong, I'm willing to hear and learn. Blessings.
When was the last time you taught or spoke on church discipline and didn't leave out 1 Timothy 5:20-22. I have witnessed favortism amongst Elders and "iconic" celebrity "Pastors", Theologians, Elders, and False Teachers.
That's because the churches of celebrity pastors often aren't functioning as churches, they are functioning as organizations controlled by and focused on the celebrity.
Follow the logic. AN ELDER MUST BE the husband of one wife. Remarried after an unbiblical divorce, is adultry, Romans 7. So to be a pastor after adultry, they still need to be married in a qualified way. AND THE ONLY option to them is the wife they cheated on. They seeking to be a ruler, outside of that - is it's own proof that they are not qualified, that they are after the job for thier own glory. Digressing - there are FOUR people involved in a remarriage. Two broken couples from which one new couple comes. The probablity that all four had legal reasons to divorce is very small. And these day's, at least one of the four is on thier 2nd, or 3rd+ marriage. Someone in the equation sought an unbiblical divorce. That person remarring makes them BOTH adulterous, even the partner who was not adulterous, by marring the adultrous one, becomes and adultrous. AND - elders with more than average wisdom under thier belts will be looking out for the "engineered" divorce, like a DA would watch out for a false claime of abuse or abuse of the children by someone trying to use the power of the courts to gain leverage - falsely. Crooks try to finger someone else for thier crimes all the time. Pitty those who endure lies in courts.
"For outside are dogs and sorcerers, and sexually immoral (cf Rmns 7), murderers and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." What is the view from heaven? "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image..." Notice - Jesus actively, forever, torments the unrepented in hell. The saints will rejoice in the justice of it, because it glorifies God. That is by glorified, displays his atributes to be seen. Don't fool around with the Holy God Sinner's can be restored, consider lamentations 3.
@BillowsPillow He has no business leaving Mars Hill, refusing any counseling just to start another church. He has fully and utterly disqualified himself.
What do you mean by pastor? Those described in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus? Or those of Ephesians 4:11? The first refers to ELDERS who are the leadership and have a pastoring role (sheperding role) but the qualifications are clearly spelled out in 1 Tim 3 and Titus and reputation outside the church is indeed a necessary criteria for eldership (which should be in the plural - no one man leaders in the New Testament). As for the calling of pastor in Ephesians 4:11-12... "So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up" ... there is NO specification (not even gender). A pastor in that sense of calling does not need a title or pastorship because they (Eph 4:11) are given by Christ to the ekklesia (even if they have had a dark past) for the equipping of the church. They are now children of God living a new life (assuming they are walking with the Lord). They are a new creation. Christ called them to serve the church. The problem is that the church system has created many rules based on tradition and not rooted in the scripture. For example, is the clergy-laity divison. There was no special priesthood and no titles among first disciples. Not even the Apostles carried titles. This system usurps the universal priesthood of all believers who are all livingstones in the house hold of God (1 Peter 2). We need to be careful not to disqualify the saints even God qualified them through his calling.
Perhaps the most thorough treatment of this issue is Alexander Strauch's "Biblical Eldership." Strauch argues--and I believe convincingly--that the qualifications mentioned in the NT all refer to the same office. In other words the terms shepherd, elder, teacher, etc. are synonymous. May I humbly commend this book to you.
@@mchristr Elders may be pastors but not all pastors are elders. They are not the same. Orherwise the apostles, teachers, evangelists and prophets are also synonymous with elders. They can be but those callings/functions are not necessarily the leadership.
@@ReturntoActs I appreciate your response. Again, let me invite you to entertain Alex Strauch's very biblical argument concerning a plurality of elders, and who would be included in that office. Blessings.
I would most definitely recommend a book by Alexander Strauch entitled "Biblical Eldership". He does an excellent job of explaining biblical eldership as far as qualifications and also disqualifications. He goes into detail explaining how Elder, Pastor, Bishop, all relate and how they are used synonymously. He not only deals with these topics but much more. Check it out you will find his exegeses of this subject is on or above par with any on the subject.
This sounds nice but it’s based on opinion not scripture. He made a point if a pastor commits a great sin that it should take a long time for him to be restored by a pastoral board but how can a board restore him when it was God who called him? Do they have more authority than God? Of course not. The idea that a person has to wait to serve God in the capacity in which he was called until people can look past his sin is ridiculous. If he repents or anyone else for that matter and God forgives him who then has the right not to? Videos like this are dangerous because they sound good but have no scriptural backing. Can you make a part two to this and give scriptures supporting your opinions? Thank you in advance.
Sin is a rather ugly (death-producing) symptom of unbelief. The Christian life, in this old world, will be marked by it often; there are times when what we see and feel is a horrible attack against the promise of Jesus' mercy for us. Sometimes this sin will be quite visible, but the sin is no less damaging when it remains invisible to others or in your heart (think of Jesus' sermon on the mount in Matthew 5). In this video, do you fear that you're putting forth an elevated demand for pastors in the law, as if they are not sinners also? Could the peace and comfort of God's promise be taken away by a command to "be better than that" knowing that our hearts are not capable of extinguishing the problem of sin? The sense of call for a pastor here suggests that to administer the Lord's Supper and preach God's Word faithfully is contingent on the "goodness" of the pastor (or by some "superpower in the law" that they've been given by God, which is largely a turn back to Roman Catholicism). This runs counter to Scripture, as there we can find moments of unbelief and sin in every prophet and preacher (the promise is attacked by the devil, the world, and our sinful selves in this old world). God uses them anyway. Now, would the sins of a pastor be a deterrent to a congregation calling them to that role? YES! It very well could! That sin could be a real barrier to faith in the Good News that should be preached, and so it follows that this person would NOT be called to the pastoral office. Are we to "look" for years and years of contrition to remedy the problem of sin in this person's life? Are we to expect the pastor to be really, really good at our standard of the law to make his own way back? That leaves those such as the apostle Paul outside of the boundary for preaching ("Oh wretched man that I am"). It leaves the disciples (Christ's betrayers like you and me) that Jesus found in the upper room out as well. God uses sinners to get His Word to other sinners, and He gives us the keys (John 20) to forgive those sins in the name of Christ. He commands us to use those keys to deliver his mercy (the gospel), not to give them a bigger and better "wishy-washy" law.
@@meaganwelch1841 A pastor who __________________ shouldn’t be a pastor, especially if they know it is sin? What if the pastor votes? After all, according to the law, they’ve just sinned against the wishes of roughly half of the population. How about if he/she gives to charity? This person would have helped some people who needed it, but it did nothing for millions of others who could have really used it! Even in your “best works” according to the law, you are loving some and forsaking others. You’re sinning. What if the pastor has gotten angry with his brother or sister before? Will that forbid him from the pastoral office? This is sin, too, and all sins do have consequences according to the law. The punishment is death. If sinning was a barrier to the job, whether they “know” they’re sinning or not, it would preclude everyone from preaching. I believe you’re speaking of immediate/earthly consequences of sin, such as the jobs they would be allowed to perform. But the consequences of all sin is death. Romans 3:23. Will certain, particular sins be too much for those extending the call? Functionally, yes. Some sins will be too much for the hearers in the congregation to overcome, and the gospel will not be heard. If that is the case, the pastor should not be called. Get him out of there. But, let’s not pretend that the pastor assumes that office because of any “righteousness in the law”. Thankfully, pastors are used by God to deliver his words, law and GOSPEL, to others. It is a word of Jesus Christ, coming through the mouth of a sinner, for sinners. The gospel word, when the Spirit gives his chosen faith in it, makes the Church. As far as the relationship of sin and unbelief, I will proclaim that sin comes out of unbelief (breaking the 1st commandment - not believing that God is who He says He is - the one who delivers mercy to you). All of the other commandments fall apart if the first does not stand. The unclean (unbelieving) heart will produce exactly what you mention - greed, envy, lust, and other nasty symptoms. But Faith, when one has the Spirit, has none of these symptoms. In faith, you have Christ. You can’t even sin in the moment you have faith in Christ as your redeemer. Genesis 3 - “the fall” - has much to say about original sin as unbelief. The move of the serpent is to drive a wedge between Eve’s ear and hearing God’s promise. Satan does this - He tries to point to what you see and feel in this old world, instead of what God is actually saying to you. The devil tries to produce doubt instead of faith. Jesus sums up sin as unbelief in John 16:9 as well. May God's grace be with you!
Please tell me you are not a leader in a church. First of all, you are completely missing what Paul is actually saying in Romans 7 AND 8. There were no chapters and verses when the Bible was written. Paul is not saying, "I am wretched and God is good with that." NO! NO! NO! Paul makes his meaning clear in Romans 8. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. He is saying that without the redeeming, regenerating, and sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit he is dead. He even says, "Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." 8:9 There is no way the Holy Spirit is dwelling in someone who is living according to the flesh.
@@rodrocketon9480 “Please tell me you are not a leader in a church.” - Yes, that IS a vocation put on my life, and I am glad to be used in this capacity. I am a pastor who received a regular call from a congregation to preach God’s Word and administer His sacraments; to give Christ and His Justification apart from works of the law to sinners in my midst. They know and recognize that I am a fellow sinner in need of God’s mercy, but that (being a sinner) is not the basis on which I was called. There were no stumbling blocks that were a barrier to the call they extended to me. Instead they recognized that God could use a person like me, a baptized believer with my educational and experiential background, to distinguish law and gospel and provide pastoral care and be the “local absolver”, always in the name of Christ and by His command to deliver Himself and His gifts to His people. “First of all, you are completely missing what Paul is actually saying in Romans 7 AND 8. There were no chapters and verses when the Bible was written. Paul is not saying, "I am wretched and God is good with that." NO! NO! NO! Paul makes his meaning clear in Romans 8.” - Paul is not saying “I am wretched and God is good with that”, and neither am I! Sin is a serious matter, and look what Jesus Christ had to do about it - look at His death on the cross! Should we sin that sin grace may abound? BY NO MEANS! The apostle Paul quickly refutes the human question of whether we should “just sin more” or “eat, drink, and be merry” after we’ve been forgiven. This is not the fruit of true faith in God’s Word of mercy. Could you explain what it is that you say that I’m “completely missing”? This seems to be the basis that you feel should prevent me from leadership in the church. If you could pick out a particular portion, phrase, or sentence that I’ve written, that would be helpful. As it is, you’ve pointed out a wonderful passage about the relationship with law and gospel, the problem of sin, and how it hangs around us in this old world around the neck of the old you. Thankfully, you are two, not one. The passage also speaks of the new you, the one with faith, the one who lives by the Spirit instead of the flesh, the one that God created through his gospel promise word in your baptism. What a wonderful gift of God this baptism is, a baptism that unites an old sinner with Christ’s death (!) AND with his resurrection. You are made new, God’s own child, by God’s wonderful announcement. And, yes, I’m aware that the books of the Bible were not written with designated chapters and verses. I’m not sure where that comes into things here. “He is saying that without the redeeming, regenerating, and sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit he is dead. He even says, "Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." 8:9” - Yes. It is the work of God alone that makes a person “right” or “just”. The Holy Spirit is the giver of faith, the one who allows a poor sinner like you to open his/her ears to God’s promise of forgiveness, instead of continually hardening your heart to the promise. Without faith in that promise that is given to you (not something you earn or merit or “decide”), a person is dead meat. “There is no way the Holy Spirit is dwelling in someone who is living according to the flesh.” - I agree with this. However, are you suggesting that the old you, the one that doesn’t believe God’s promise is for him/her, the one without faith doesn’t still walk about the earth for a time? Do you never have moments of unbelief, where the symptoms of selfishness, greed, envy, lust, or anger come out? Do you have moments in which you think you deserve more than you’re getting? Are you ever angry with a boss, coworker, or family member? Are you always able to attribute the best intentions in others? Are you now able to fulfill all of the commandments, and the commandments put forth by Jesus in the sermon on the mount? Paul wasn’t able to. No one is able to, except for Jesus Christ. After all, a truly selfless person would die. I simply must get to know who you are if you can refrain from any and all moments of selfishness. This is precisely what Paul is speaking of in Romans 7. “But I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.” For Paul and everyone else I’ve ever known, the Old Adam sticks around until death. This is why a person doesn’t go to church or have their sins forgiven in the name of Christ just once. (Unfortunately, some might go to church and not have their sins forgiven at all, which is sadly leaving the people in their sin.) God’s word of forgiveness needs to get back in your ear again and again, because the old you’s final death hasn’t happened yet. The promise that makes us new is attacked by the devil, the world, and our sinful selves again and again and again. Without the promise of Jesus Christ in your ear, there is no real peace, comfort, or hope. This is the age for preaching Christ into those ears, the promise that creates faith where there was none. And the word is for you, @rodrocketon9480: Jesus Christ forgives you all your sins.
@@ohoegh 13 Therefore, preparing your minds for action,[b] and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” I Peter 1:13-16 4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's[b] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. I John 3:4-10 Of course, most Calvinists simply rip I John 1:8 out of the context (much like Paul's "wretched" statement in Romans 7). And the other thing the faithful Calvinist does is explain to me how this passage from I John 3 does not mean what it clearly means.
@@rodrocketon9480 Am I, who has not been described as a “faithful Calvinist” before, being accused of ripping something out of context here? Or of saying that something doesn’t mean what it clearly means? Or are you putting forth an argument that I’m GOING to rip 1 John 1:8 out of context… like… in the future? I’m missing the intent of your most recent comment. I’d prefer not to engage straw man arguments, or to be labeled something without some evidence articulated.
I don't think there is any sin including repented adultery that disqualifies a person becoming a pastor. Some of the best pastors I've know are men that have a past with this. This man better be living a 100% sinless lifestyle to make that comments like that. All sin is notorious.
1 Timothy 3 He must be a one woman man. Dont make excuses for these disqualified “pastors”, those “best pastors” you know should not be pastors. The Lord has the highest standard for the leaders of His churches, its not perfection but it is beyond reproach, which someone who commits adultery as a believer is not.
Was Paul more well known for his repentance then he was known for killing Christians ?? Completely agree with the first part of the video but God can change a person in a single day. To say “it takes a long long time” is putting God in a box. It most like will take a long time. But God has taken a murder and changed him into a church leader over night. As crazy as it sounds who are we to say he can’t change someone that completely and quickly again ?
Would it be a different story if Paul proclaimed Christ while killing Christians? In my mind, Paul fits more neatly in the category of those who have a past life but then are born again. Still, I see your point about how saying a long time could be limiting. Seems to me like he's had some experience counseling fallen pastors and has found that the inclination of the flesh is to shortcut repentance in an eagerness to return to the pulpit. He could have been more careful, however, to separate for his audience his experiential wisdom from Scripture's requirements.
There were years YEARS between Paul killing Christians and his becoming a leader in the church with baby steps along the way. Paul was converted almost overnight but not trained overnight. He had to eat humble pie for a long time.
@@jeremytuggy9 whether Paul was saved or unsaved during his acts of egregious sin is irrelevant to the man’s answer in this video. The man’s answer in the video is “if your sin is too big then it’s your own fault people can’t forgive it” essentially.
The apostle Paul would have been disqualified before he even started. You know because he was rude of speech, (2 Corinthians 11:6), called himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15), and (as Saul of Tarsus) gave the final consent to the stoning death of St. Stephen, the first Christian martyr (Acts 22:20). If he were alive today and did get into the pastoral ministry at all - it wouldn't take long for a background check to disqualify him. Some of you need to read your Bible and stop listening to failed and flawed people who try to tell you their take on the gospel the way they want it to be. Oh, Moses and King David would be disqualified as well - you know because Moses killed the Egyptian (Exodus 2::11-12) and David orchestrated the battlefield death of Uriah to make it look like just another tragic casualty of war as an attempt to cover up his adultery with Bathsheeba (2 Samuel 11:1-27), Not two men you would want today as pastors, am I correct?
Paul committed those crimes before his conversion (when he was still Saul). Afterwards all that nonsense stopped. As for David being a King and one who is responsible for upholding the standard of one who is called a pastor or elder are two different things. Also, God didn't allow David to build the temple because he had blood on his hands. The task was given to Solomon. David was punished greatly for what he did.
People hold men to a standard of pastoral qualifications while they themselves fall short of the required characteristics of a believer. Yes, a pastor ought to be a one woman man, yes he ought to have children in order to show he can be a father. Yes, he ought to be older in order to be called Elder because of what the word literally means. Yes yes… all this is true and appropriate. And yet, how can you call yourself a Christian if you are unable to forgive even when the wound is fresh? Jesus didn’t hang on the cross and say, “Father, maybe after I’ve had some time.. maybe after I’ve risen and the wounds heal, maybe then I can forgive them…” 😉
Just did not have the guts to give the right reason. If a pastor has committed adultery, he absolutely does not meet the qualifications to be an overseer in God's church. 2 Therefore an overseer[a] must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,[b] sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. I Timothy 3:2-3 7 For an overseer,[f] as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound[g] doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. Titus 1:7-9 Once you have committed adultery - you are not and can never be "above reproach." God may forgive you and you may find a way to serve him but you have disqualified yourself from leadership in any Christian church.
@@JonathanGrandt Well then they should not be in ministry. Should we be aligning with what the Bible says or with what John Calvin says? Those are not suggestions - those are commands.
If one has committed adultery or any sin listed in those verses AND repents, they can be above reproach, thus not disqualified. Unless you are holding his past sins against him, thus committing sin yourself. For the record, those verses make no mention of being disqualified from any service unto the LORD.
@@remnant8898 Being forgiven and being credible are two different things. And how many different times can he commit adultery and keep pastoring? At some point, doesn't his living have to align with his preaching? Of course, what you will find is that, after committing adultery, he will have a problem preaching personal holiness and purity. And according to your reasoning, couldn't a pastor molest a child and return to the pulpit after repenting?
@@rodrocketon9480 but who are you to determine who's credible or not? It certainly isn't the Scriptures. Was Peter credible according to what he did in Galatians? And who and why would you put a tally on how many times one commits a sin? You're speaking in a way that revolves around unrepentant actions, and I'm not. And that's not true, unless you can confirm that every leader that has committed that sin or ANY sin has struggled to preach holiness and purity. But you can't. It's disappointing to see you being that judgmental and using egregious perverted acts as straw man arguments to hold on to your point.
As the wife of my "fallen" pastor, I've searched for more than 7yrs, "Where do we go from here?" Neither of us dream of him ever pastoring again. It's living with the shame (it is truly ever before us) and feeling so incredibly lost. We've attended 3 churches since leaving the ministry and our church family 7yrs ago. More than the loss of the ministry, we grieve not having fellowship with believers. We both would appreciate a man/men who would come up beside him and offer to hold him accountable. It seems unheard of. One pastor told us that maybe we should move away. Besides the fact that our kids and grandkids and elderly parents are here where we've lived all our lives, we long for healing, for shame to fade and relationships to be even somewhat restored. Your answer is so very helpful. And I thank you. This is hard and ugly. Still. I keep thinking, if only God could use this...
Stay put and keep moving forward. It's not a matter of how others treat us, but how we treat others. Those within the church that remain hard hearted towards another believer (post repentance) has a bigger problem than the one with the original sin issue. Church politics is why I fellowship with believers outside the traditional churches.
Christianity has the same problem every where stop being weak and become the light you’re searching for
So sorry you have had to endure this. I hope that your husband has since found secular work to make a living.
And I hope you can find a church where you will be welcomed as lay people and members.
@@BaronReed-rj9rzA church member was doing inappropriate things in my house while I was away without my knowledge. I will never trust her again and a year later I’m just now in the process of church discipline over a very confusing situation. That person will never gain my trust back. Her presence at church is extremely awkward especially since, for a year, I was the only person who knew what she did and what she was (aka false) since I did not gossip or slander her for a year.
It is sad but she should have never put me in a position to distrust her! Period!!
It sounds like your husband disqualified himself from church leadership, but that does not mean he disqualified himself from God's forgiveness. It is crazy to think that the only people serving God are on church staffs. Every genuine follower of Christ is in full-time ministry.
This applies to all of us Christians. I mean it spoke to me so much despite the fact that I am not a pastor.
"My sin is so bad, nothing that that guy thinks bout my sin is as bad as the truth." Such a convicting quote. Thank you Pastor York!
I've never heard you before. Thank you for your words. My sin is ever before me no matter how many years go by😢
1 Timothy 3:2 (KJV) - A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Titus 1:6 (KJV) - If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
God makes it plain. If you cannot rule your household well, you cannot be a pastor. Period. Either submit to God's will, or follow traditions of man. It is our choice. Good message.
Please continue to tell us how you're leadership has always been flawless. Repentant men can never lead again? You think JESUS only uses perfect people for HIS ministry? I think you're missing the forest for the trees.. much like the who knew the LIVING WORD, but didn't recognize it when it stood in front of them.
Thank you for this! I love how this was put honestly, firmly, gently, and with wisdom. Too many people want to slap the grace sticker on sin, call it done, and want to get back to the ministry status that they fell from. I feel like a broken record when I tell them that worrying about your ministry should be the farthest thing from a truly repentant heart. It isn't negating grace to say so. We should yearn and hope for true repentance for the sake of the soul and for those injured by the sin. I appreciate the humility with which this teaching was delivered.
Yeah…and my pastor “counseled” my wife in a park after picking her up at another location and hiding her car behind a hotel..several times…and meeting her downtown…and outlet malls…basically dated my wife. All for “counseling”. What a blessing to have such a shepherd so dedicated to his flock !!
This is a very good talk. This needs to be watched by all pastors. Very, very good.
Thank you for an excellent podcast. I entered my first church knowing that the previous pastor committed adultery. The church was hurting so badly. It took years before healing was possible.
Never forget: when we are truly repentant and of a broken heart, God forgives us and casts the sin away as far as the east is from the west. It is only man who remembers and refuses to let go of it.
I agree.
Thank you for this sobering & wonderful response, Pastor. May the Lord Bless & Keep us all ! Amen
This video deserves more likes. God bless you pastor
Thank you for this comment. I always forget to click the like button! You are so right!
I appreciate how well you thought out this video. I agree that time is an important factor and that if our biggest question is, "how long before I can preach again" we are not focused on the right thing. If that is our main focus and priority then, yes, it is the wrong question. However, it is an important question because the fallen Pastor is trying to gauge what the process of restoration looks like and trying to set some type of expectation. I think it is a bit of a cop out when our response is, "a significant amount of time." Time is a valid expectation, however, it is not the most helpful answer (if the conversation ends there).
I believe you are right in the fact that unrepentant mindset is the biggest factor of qualifications for ministry. If we are relentlessly pursuing God, we are not "sitting in unrepentance." It is very possible to be dealing with a sin and following Christ. Every Christian has sin. Even the most well meaning Pastor has sin in their life. I believe the difference is recognizing and bringing that before Christ rather than hiding it and pretending it doesn't exist.
I truly appreciate this video and the message you deliver. In my ministry now, years after my own fall, I believe that Romans 11:29 makes it clear the call never goes away. However, not every one will return to the Pulpit and that is okay. Preaching in front of a church is not the only ministry God calls people to pursue. I will always have my past sin to deal with but the grace and mercy that comes only from Jesus Christ is bigger than any of that. Many times Christians judge others to take the focus off of their own sin instead of using it as a moment to help each other live out our Christian lives more effectively. Pride and selfishness seem to be the two biggest factors in all sin.
“I wanna pastor well, for life.” ☝🏾Well said
One of the biggest issues in the church at present is the church itself
We have become PC and do not shine as beacons and cities on the hill
We all know the world is on a downhill spiral as noted in the Word
However we should be shouting from the rooftops THe Truth so others will know the Truth and it will set them free and come to know and love Jesus
..thank you for taking such a question, and answering it the way you had.
Thank you Pastor York! Always appreciate your godly wisdom!!!!!
Such wisdom spoken in love.
like he says... STAY PRAYED UP
1 Corinthians 5 seems to answer this question. And not just for pastors but for any brother in the body.
Well said, full of wisdom. Thank you
God will forgive sin that is repented of but will never remove the consequences.. there are consequences to sin
Dead on.
Grace, not law. Try it.
It's foolish, arrogant even, to assume we know our own sins fully, both the sins of comission and omission, including our thought lives. Most think of cognition, being aware of sin, then by will repenting as the definition of "I'm pleasing to God now". But our sin is way more pervasive than that. Forgivness based on what I do ... no one would ever be saved. Have a deep meditation on Gal 6:2 with the parable of the Sheep and the goats in Mt. 25. The sheep don't look for repentance, they give no thought to self, but carry others burdens. That describes very few churches. So, who are the goats?
What is funny (😢sorrow)about this for my case is mine left me for becoming a Christian over 30y ago and church people still hold it against me. But I keep living for Jesus because at the end of the day Iam serving Jesus.The thing that goes threw my mind all the time is how you measure others will be measured unto you. So keep serving a audience of One not once! . It’s enough no mater what people say.
I appreciate everything you had to say, leadership is so important and leaders are to be held to a higher standard, but in saying that there is no thus saith the Lord on if and when a Pastor could be restored two serving in that position again.
I think King David is a good example even though there were continual consequences for his past sin he never stopped being King, but most importantly David truly repented, there has to be true repentance.
That is a bad comparison. David was not a priest - he was a king. That was Old Testament - we live under the new covenant. The American concept of "pastor" is not even in the Bible. The Bible shows us elders and overseers and to qualify for that position, you had to be "above reproach." Sounds like you are placing far too much emphasis on "Ministry" as a career. He should find God's forgiveness and ask God to show him how to support his family.
@@rodrocketon9480 I'll have to respectfully disagree, under the New testament even more so forgiveness. I know that the word Pastor and Elder are closely related but Eph 4:11 seems to indicate that Pastor is more of a spiritual gift. If you were to split hairs on "above reproach" that is one of the requirements for elders everyone has their issues. Remember David was a man after God's own heart.
@@DS-md7jn The word would more accurately be translated "Shepherd." But nowhere in Scripture do we find the modern western paradigm of "pastor" as this church manager who is designated to deliver a monologue once or twice a week. Paul makes it clear the Elders/Overseers are to lead and guide the church. One of the worst things that ever happened to the church was "pastor" becoming a career choice. Every follower of Christ is called to "full-time ministry." Jesus sent his followers OUT to GO with the Gospel. We sit and wait for people to show up and hear the next "sermon series."
@@rodrocketon9480 I agree with you that every believer is a full time minister in Christ, but preaching/teaching is a gift, but back to the original point of this conversation that a pastor who has committed adultery cannot be restored back to that position, after repentance and some time taken off is just not true and there is no thus saith the Lord in Scripture that would support your view that he cannot at some point continue as a pastor/Elder.
@@DS-md7jn 2 "Therefore an overseer must be above reproach" I timothy 3:2 At some point the guys in the pulpit have to start practicing what they are preaching. They are trampling on the grace of God.
Lord have mercy on us
Wow, this was so helpful. For any role of leadership; husband and father.
@John Fillmore It encouraged me to engage the role of each. That's how I found it helpful.
Amen! Pastor well for life.
Truth is you can't be ministered to, by someone who isn't taking holiness more seriously than you are yourself.
The Bible does not agree with this statement. Sorry.
@@blynkers1411 Actually, the BIBLE completely agrees with this statement.
7 For an overseer,[f] as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound[g] doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
Titus 1:7-9
@@rodrocketon9480 Did the Lord Jesus Himself, the Most HOLY One, not receive ministry from a HARLOT in Luke 7, when she washed His feet (SHE MINISTERED TO HIM) with her hair?
No, sorry. The original statement is arrogant, overreaching and Scripturally uninformed. Nothing is impossible with God. He can send "ministry" to us by the hand of whomever He wishes, whether they're "taking holiness more seriously" or not. Whether or not we can receive that ministry has more to do with our humility and willing submission to the ministering hand of God, than it does with how we're "taking holiness".
How about the Canaanite harlot who ministered to the Israelites in Joshua 2. You think she was more serious about holiness than the Israelites, God's Chosen, "Set Aside" (holy) People, who in that moment were actually obeying God's commands and aligned with Him? No. She was absolutely unholy - she was not only a prostitute, but a Canaanite under the imminent judgment of God Himself. Yet God used her to MINISTER to the Israeli spies.
The Scriptures do NOT teach what "Martin" posted, and listing qualifications for "Overseers", Biblical though they may be, does not argue that what he posted OR what he meant is correct according to the Bible.
@@blynkers1411 Uh, CONTEXT. In the video, he specifically addresses whether or not pastors are disqualified from serving in that role after committing adultery. So, your post has some truth but "missed the mark."
I definitely believe in the priesthood of all believers but Paul laid out specific qualifications for overseers/elders in congregations (I Timothy 3 and Tutus).
I have addressed elsewhere on here the fact that the current American concept of pastor is not even found in the Bible. Someone (maybe Francis Chan) has said that if Martians read the Bible and then landed on earth in the middle of a church service they would be utterly confused by the difference between what they read about the church in the Bible and what was taking place.
@@rodrocketon9480 Are you seriously operating at a "Francis Chan" level in this discussion? Because if you are, and if Martin's statement is true, then it would explain why I'm having trouble receiving this "ministry" from you.
But I will argue for you that Martin's statement is still not true Scripturally on it's face - especially in context with the video. And this means that you have hope to minister to those who take holiness more seriously than you do - especially if you're going reference Francis Chan.
Wise counsel. Enjoyed listening to your teaching @ Basics Conference very much
No doubt, adultry is a sin that should keep one from pastoral ministry, if only for a season. But there is a sin that is creeping into our churches that is much more serious: the sin of failing to preach the gospel All of the New Testament writers emphasized the importance of the gospel. Paul went so far as to say, "I have determined not to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." A pastor who preaches "Christian philosophy," "Social ills" or anything other than the gospel is not worthy of the office.
But Paul wrote on more than just the gospel proper... some could call them social ills...
I agree. We live in perilous times when even the professional so-called ministers won't endure sound doctrine but have become teachers of the doctrines of devils. Worst of all, it has infiltrated every denomination, but not every congregation. It is very telling that so many buy their sermons online instead of being inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Sitting in a pew as a listener of preaching, the absence and silence on the full gospel message (simply repentance and forgiveness of sin) that silence is deafening. They so badly do not want to risk offending anyone at all and to keep it a so-called "safe pasture". But is that "safe", not preaching the full truth in love ?
@@dnzswithwombats There isn't anything safe about those pastures. They are leading their flocks to damnation.
@@dnzswithwombats amen! Spot on Brother
Beautiful answer!!
Proverbs 6:32-33 NASB95
The one who commits adultery with a woman is lacking sense; He who would destroy himself does it. [33] Wounds and disgrace he will find, And his reproach will not be blotted out.
A man with such a great commision(Pastor or Elder) will most likely never serve again if they commit adultery; his reputation will be ruined for a very long time.
Thanks to you sir for this.
The standard (1st Tim 3 and Titus 1) is the standard. If a man isn't a one woman man, he's disqualified, full stop. That's not to say he can't be forgiven but it does mean he can't be an elder.
What’s the biblical difference between pastor and elder?
@@andrewbosma4857 There is no difference (see Acts 20). Elders and Pastors are the same office. Elders (overseers) pastor (shepherd).
I'm curious why, of all the requirements listed in both chapters, that you only mentioned that part about multiple women.
Peter was fallen and then restored. There's no reason and from what I can tell in the word, to believe disqualification is permanent.
@@ryanbussell24 I mentioned that qualification because that is what Prof York focused on. Peter sinned of course but never disqualified himself.
So a sin committed by Peter that's listed in those chapters doesn't permanently dq him but adultery does for someone else?
That doesn't make any sense.
Peter can't be forgiven for one on the list and someone else not forgiven for breaking another.
There are lots of great things and wise points to take away from this. Permanent disqualification is not biblical, but an altered life is. King David is probably the most pronounced example of this, and being the king of a nation is more than being a pastor of a church. I certainly agree that unrepentant sin and a way of life should have someone removed. As shared in this video, that person needs to be serious about following Jesus. Seems like man need not be unforgiving and not harden their heart towards anyone who falls, including pastors. But yes, a proven life deomnstrating that Jesus os the goal, etc...well said. I agree.
Amen, sound teaching.
I agreed…mostly. But, I always find it quite interesting that adultery is always addressed but a pastor’s pride is hardly ever mentioned. You can make an argument that pride is the greatest and most insidious sin of all - it’s literally NEVER mentioned when I hear this topic about who is “qualified” to preach. God does not call the qualified, He qualifies the called. That said, these so-called list of qualifications in the pastoral epistles are “characteristics” not qualifications. It is about the person in the pulpit’s character and if they can be effective in pastoral ministry - if they can earnestly shepherd the LORD’s flock.
In this day of Christianity if you're not the Pastors kid or close to the pastor your not called or qualified to preach.
@@mateenfoster4595 where are you getting that from
@@mateenfoster4595 it does seem that way in some denominations. That goes for the music and other positions in the church. Seen too much of that in the last 40+ years. Too much 1st hand personal experience.
@@danielsmith5032 more than likely from what she has personally seen because I agree 100% with her. I’ve been an outsider and I’ve been married to a pastor’s son. It’s two different worlds and it shouldn’t be.
Exactly. I think pride is the root of sin actually. Lucifer fell because of his pride. The Bible explains many times that the humble will be lifted up and the proud will be abased. When I was a teenager growing up in church, the pastor felt he needed to single me out during his messages because I was a musician playing secular music with my buddies on weekends. Went on for a while, he didn't change my mind and the church was starving spiritually...then he got caught embezzling money from the church. He never set foot in a church again as far as I know. For the rest of his life, he blamed the church for ruining his ministry, and his attitude was the church's bank account was his to use as he pleased because he was the pastor. Another preacher at a revival after that had the same problem with me playing secular music. A few years later, he got caught sleeping with a church member who was not his wife, but someone else. A prideful person will always be quick to point a finger but never examine themself. The funny thing about my example here is playing secular music has enabled me to witness to a lot of people who needed to hear about God's grace and Christ's payment for sin. I'm no better than those two pastors, or anyone for that matter. But I do believe God gave me a gift that I can use to lift His Word up where it needs to be heard, and I pray that I always humble myself so He can use me for His glory no matter where I am. Prideful pastors need to study the OT and read why the high priest had to put his own sins under the blood before he stepped into the Holy Place.
Jesús is Lord!❤
Spectacular episode
Thanks again for this brilliant advice.
This is incredible.
Simply put...
God forgives but the trust man of is not so easily recovered. Ironic we preach repentance and Mercy and that God forgives yet we (the fallen vessel) are so harsh on each other that when one falls they are shamed and unforgiven but in time are forgiven IF they go through the process of repentance in the face of public shame...BUT Jesus forgives. Cold game.
Yes, that is sadly true. I have experienced this with someone who used to visit my former church in Des Moines, IA. Through my experiences with him, I am still learning the lesson of loving enemies. My associate pastor asserted your exact point about how forgiveness does not mean instant restoration of trust and respect. Even within the church, first impressions count in forming friendships. Those connections are built on a foundation of mutual trust and respect. Once trust has been broken, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to restore, as you have addressed. Even if it were reestablished, the relationship would never be the same.
@@verentyee5413 the Christian experience can be an eye opener when you realize the perception of perfection is not all fully true.
Christians
Nope sinners saved by God trying to live daily away from past sins...not always easy.
Just typical christians being total hypocrites
amen, its unrepentant sin that's the main issue, not whether or not disqualification is permanent. nothing permanently disqualifies, cause if that's the case, you would be saying that God's grace is limited and cannot redeem a fallen pastor. the notion articulated, that as long as the sin is not sufficiently repented of, and as long as the sin is more notorious than the reputation of a repentant godly pastor, a person is not fit to pastor, and needs more time to repent, that is a very good notion. amen to more personal repentance for all men, yes LORD and amen!
Thank you!
Being a woman is a permanent disqualification, and that not because of sin. They're not disqualified for what they are not, God just gave them something better, more important to do. The reason men are to love them as Christ loved the church.
Not having a wife is a disqualification. So too, that's not sin. Not trying to stop the crime is complicity too.
Got divorced in your church? All pastors now look out on a sea of adultery.
Yet they make elders and pastors disregardful of that qualification all the time, that's just chauvinism in action. And truly an insult to woman.
And then this, interestingly enough, coming to us from liberal Colorado, but spot on correct:
"According to Colorado law, complicity is when someone is legally accountable for another person's criminal actions. This can happen if the person aids, abets, advises, or encourages the other person to plan or commit the crime, with the intent to promote or facilitate the offense.". And, the compliciter can be charged with the very crime they gave consent to.
And then there are the very biblical "duty to report" laws. Laws that primarily protect women and children. In the absence of the church doing that.
Looks to me like nobody's qualified qualified.
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Consider
I had a pastor that used to teach the very thing this guy is teaching. He was big on espousing the death penalty, especially for homosexuals.
He had a little church. He taught tithing, sabbath observation, neothetic counseling, Christian reconstructionism, thought that Calvin's 5 points weren't enough, but Calvin actually had 10 points.
Then, he built a house of cards string of mortgages buying rental property preparing for a retirement.
He basically sent everyone to hell who left or tried to leave without hiding under a hidden agenda of something like a geographic relocation. Those who honestly spoke their minds, he twisted their heads.
Disqualified? He never was. And he had been told that by several elder boards.
The elders were compliciters to a disqualified man being in the office of the teaching elder. The whole denomination was.
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Sins a fellow cannot get off of himself?
I suspect this pastor, like most, doesn't know anything about PTSD. They think they do, by calling every aberrant problem a man struggles with sin. . But the real sin isn't those calling the sinner a sinner but the judges and their inability to keep the law of Christ towards that person. Gal 6:2.
There's a reason why people like combat veterans prefer an AA meeting over a church meeting.
Recommended reading "The body keeps the score" by Bessel Van Der Klock.
The way to take the Lord's table in an unworthy manner?
1. Think of it as superfluous to what you need. Basically thinking you're good and you don't need the Lord's table. I.e. that you have arrived at full repentance and are therefore worthy Which often looks like people jumping through the hoops of partaking, because they're repentance has made them worthy - they think.
2. Trying to write checks on an empty bank account, metaphorically.
It is our nature that disqualifies us. Rmns 7
I would much prefer a sinning pastor who cries with Paul, then one who thinks they are worthy or repentant.
"How many times should I forgive my brother?"
David and Bathsheba, and the associated murder - Christ did not remove him from being king over Israel. There were consequences for certain, but he didn't get fired.
Moses was not disqualified for having been a murderer.
The apostle Paul too, he was a mass murderer.
Go to the Hall of Faith and look at all the failures of the men there. Every one of them committed doozies.
The question isn't whether or not a sinner can be a pastor, but if some cohort of Christians can install over them the pastor of their choosing.
Who is this guy to tell anyone who they can choose as their pastor?
Excellent model of what a pastor should be? See UA-cam "Monty Roberts join up". Women watching him work, often faint.
Today's kids - are the most un-mothered, not sheparded by a father, people who have ever walked the face of the Earth. Pornography comes to them at unbelievably young ages.
Who shall preach Grace?
Better - call no one father but God.
"Here is what we seek, a compassion that can stand in awe at the burdens the poor carry, rather than in judgment at how they carry them". Gregory Boyle.
There is precious little of that coming to me from any "pastor."
There is precious little of that coming to me from any "pastor."
Yet restoring that was the beginning opening salvo of John the Baptist "he will restore the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers", That's where the Christian ethic we read of in 1st Corinthians chapter 1 starts.
We are qualified for the Lord's table for the same reason we are qualified to be with him in heaven.
He came to us. Jn 6:60-71
No pastor who is engaging in unrepented sin is going to step down.
God help us
Let's Peter as an example one moment he denies Christ even to the point of cursing what can be bigger than denying you know Christ but yet 50 days later he preaches on the day of Pentecost
I would personally say that IMO, any type of sexual sin from a pastor or leadership should permanently disqualify them. This is from personal experience. I know a former pastor who (related by marriage) was caught with a prostitute and arrested. Of course he immediately was relieved of his pastoral duties. He was quoted in the paper as saying that his wife had back problems and that was the only way he could relieve himself! REALLY?! He never pastored again but I think he preached a few places. However, a few years later his son told me he had found porn hidden under the sofa and he didn’t know if he should tell his mom or not. I don’t know what happened there. He had also mentioned that he thinks when he was a kid his dad wasn’t allowed to preach for awhile. I had gotten vibes way back that maybe he was molesting his young granddaughters (now grown). His son asked one day how do you know when to believe a girl when she says she’s been molested. My answer: YOU JUST BELIEVE HER! So now I’m wondering if he did molest the girls because they don’t come around or bring their kids around the grandparents. Even since he has died they still refuse to visit with the grandma. So again, IMO, I’m not sure sexual sin is ever overcome. Not saying it’s impossible but I think it’s rare.
good thing this dude wasn't around when Paul went to the disciples for the first time
What if those who have committed sexual crimes? A person with that in his history has just been allowed to minister to college students and it has caused division in our ministry. I was told I’m being harsh and we all sin, but a man that has sexually assaulted a woman shouldn’t be a leader in ministry to college kids. In my opinion.
King DAVID
Really good. Needed to hear
If you ask about how long before you can preach again, you're not repentant.
If you judge others' reaction to judging your sin, you're not repentant.
When you fall to sin, you do not determine when you are redeemed and get to return to the pulpit.
If anyone is afforded any ministry, that is God's providence - grace upon grace.
You don't grasp it. You don't ask for it. You don't carry it out secretively.
Care to quote a Bible verse in "context" for any of what you said....that was a massive opionated nothing burger...
This video seems to be very eisegetical and based on the makers opinions.
As a previous commenter said the exegetical answer (at least to my knowledge) is 1 Tim 3 and Tit 1.
I’m open to hearing scriptures to back up this video, but I worry this teaching puts an undue focus on “notorious” sins and ignores “respectable” sins. For example, is a pastor who is a glutton guilty of unrepentant sin? Is he any less incapable of shepherding a flock than an adulterer? It would seem the answer is they are both hindered, but the teaching of this video would likely lead to ignoring the latter case.
To be clear my point is that we are all sinners this side of eternity, and a teaching of this type has the potential to lead us down a legalistic and self-righteous path where we claim, “this man can be a pastor because he has eliminated the ‘bad’ sins unlike that man who has ‘bad’ sins.” When the reality is any two people both still have unrepentant sin that the Lord hasn’t fixed yet.
Good video. Mere opinion but good.
I’m curious about this idea of permanent disqualification. It seems to me that the concept of original sin claims a person is sin marked from birth, then at some point they repent and come to Christ and are regenerated, (or if you’re a Calvinist the order of these may be different;-)
Simple sin is missing a target one intends to hit.
Transgression is willful trespass into the forbidden.
Iniquity is the soul sickness that submits one’s self to the dominion of sin.
So if God loved us while we were sinners, and then we come to Him, and then afterwards we go back into some sin, it seems that this sin can and should be forgiven.
Yet it seems to me that the answer here is dependent on a people’s ability to forgive and overlook or pardon something moreso than God’s ability.
This question must be answered biblically and not based on society’s ever shifting capacity to forgive.
One culture might not see something as so big of a deal as another.
One congregation or region may have knowledge of a thing, or feel more sensitive to it because of the closeness of it, while just going to another congregation or region will “solve” the problem. Even if they find out about the sin they may be able to “forgive” it because it wasn’t personal, ie: they themselves didn’t directly suffer the pain of the betrayal.
Unfortunately it seems as though this answer is very much based on a people’s capacity for forgiveness rather than on God’s Word.
I agree, it would be very difficult to forgive a pastor of some transgression, and yet the problem there is my own inability to forgive someone who is repentant. After all, Christ said to forgive the repentant.
A major problem we have in the Church is the refusal to understand Matthew chapter 18.
He said, “if he repents, forgive him” and yet today we teach that we should forgive someone who hasn’t repented, and then we reduce forgiveness to merely cleansing one’s own self of bitter feelings while we still hold a “record of wrongs” against the person.
And then even if they do repent we still hold it against them. This is a wicked society with a wicked and wayward inability to forgive someone who has sinned and repented. The person who does not forgive does not love his brother and has forgotten how much he was forgiven.
We are talking about someone who IS repentant.
What I’m hearing however is that even if a person IS repentant, they cannot be reinstated because people are unable to forgive. So just get all your junk outta the way before you come to Christ because once you’re saved you need to keep up appearances, because what they don’t know won’t hurt, yet what they DO know will permanently ruin you.
What about a past sin that happened after you were saved but before you were a pastor? After all, you people believe in progressive sanctification, so any sin that happens along the way must be understood as “he just wasn’t that sanctified yet”… so then, a pastor must be more sanctified to sin less…
Lord, save us from the unbelieving professors of Christ.
I do agree with some of your ideas but it isn’t self-righteousness to insist that someone else obeys Jesus. Self righteous means “I am made right by my own self”. So you have chosen the wrong term.
But it seems the lower someone grovels the more satisfied the accusers.
Amen!
When restoring the prodigal son, did the father sit around waiting for the son to take off again, did he threaten the son "If you do that again", did he hold himself, the father, aloof and far off waiting to see if the son really wanted to come home?
So why teach that pariable?
It leads people to repentance.
The Pharisees used the law to extract their pound of flesh.
was the prodigal son a pastor or elder?
The story of the prodigal Son is not about the prodigal son it's about the Father and his attitude towards forgiveness and repentance.
Whatever church you're in - If we go back generations, how did the first cohort of people become "a church?"
Every group of people puts somebody in charge, it's just the way it is... There is nothing distinctive about how the church picks elders versus how gangs pick shoot collars.
I'm certain there are pastors and elders amongst the goats of Matthew 25. They are actually probably over-represented in the goats and underrepresented in the sheep.
I see that after a lifetime of incredible disappointment in so-called elders and pastors.
Despite their fatheads and big egos, they ain't squat.
We want immediate forgiveness and immediate repentance. Rarely are either immediate and that shows you how far off the mark out optics of forgiveness are.
Forgiveness!!! Fool, for what do you think you need forgiveness?? And from whom, your make believe god ?? Wake up, none of this BS is true.
@@MrRickybhere Then go watch a different video. Clearly you're not the individual who needed this. You've never desired forgiveness from another, or offered it?
Do we remember King David most often by his sin with Bathsheba? Or do we remember him because of the Psalms associated with him?
The answer is some associate him most often with Bathsheba, others with the Psalms, still others with the good produced through God, from God, out of his life with Bathsheba...
but all remember him as a man of God, indeed a man after God's own Heart.
==========
Still similarly, do we associate King Solomon with his thousands of concubines and hundreds of wives? or do we associate him with Wisdom and the Temple.
Now here are some grey areas where not everyone has arrived at the purest answer concerning...
Do we associate king Nebuchadnezzar with idolatry and excessive wars for which God used him for judgement, and he excused himself by consideration of being a tool of divine justice?
Or do we associate him with his awe of God and sincere repentance noted in Daniel 4. Or do we even associate him with the Spirit of God filling the whole heavens and earth, per Jer 23:23-24 and Deut. 32, and yet further with Laughter's blessing on the voice of Jacob/Abel and the Flesh of Esau/Adam in Gen. 27 and 33:10? The answer seems to be in complicated derision among many, but pure in Daniel's heart, Christ's (Lamentations 4:20, 2 Cor 13:5), and God's.
Do we associate Balaam with his loyalty to Balak's hatred and love of cursing? and with his stubbornness against the donkey's intuition? or do we associate him with being a genuine prophet of God at the times of His choosing, spilling forth some of the most powerful prophecies of Jesus's coming in scripture, and with God's causing him to bless instead of curse... bringing forth what was truly in his heart instead of what Balak wanted... even with consideration of Balaam's own evils.
What do we associate Job's friends with? or the whirlwind with? what or whom do we associate Job with? is it his answer and his friends answers in Job 42? specifically nuance filled wording of Job 42:7?
Do we associate Pharaoh, the spiritual line and title of pharaoh with mercy on Joseph and Moses, and genuine love of all that God is with and through them and all that they are? or do we associate Pharaoh with only the last abusive pharaohs before the Exodus and with Leviathan (when Ezekiel speaks of his scales and such and Oholah and Oholibah [names]).
Do we associate Leviathan with being God's pet, sort of a tool, and The Authors plot device for character growth, from and within The Author's own mind expressly under His command and allowance (Isaiah 45)? and with God's light within him? making him no more than a vehicle, and mask of God's presence and a place of refuge for "the dove (names)" of Jonah?
Or do we associate him only with great terror and fear and with pride, Lucifer, the king of Babylon and Tyre, and with Satan?
Or do we associate him with King Nebuchadnezzar, Hiram, and the Pharaoh of Genesis, or Exodus, whom if his face is seen again, one may surely die...
did God not go with the Israelites when they left Egypt?
What of Lazarus and Hezekiah's sickness? The sundial of Ahaz and, Sodom [name], Melchizedek, and the secret place of The Almighty?
What of the Babylonian emissaries and the Word of God? The Riches of Israel and Jerusalem, even Samaria [Names]?
Who [Asher, Exodus 3:14] went before Israel and Jacob to prepare a place for them in the belly of the beast? Was it Serach/Serah, the daughter of Asher? (Gen. 49:20, 33)?
What do the wolves of Benjamin (Gen 49:27) and Ashurbanipal or the names of his father and brother and their nations or cities have to do with anything?
What of Joseph in Egypt? Gen 42:7, 42:23
What [Mah] is the meaning of water [Mayim]?!
Is the right eye for far sight or near sight? and if so, what is the right arm for? extending or guarding? recieving or stabalizing?
What did Hoshea do in Hoshea 1? What does Jesus, Esau/Edom/Adam [Aleph prefix + the word dam] and the book of Revelation have to do with Hoshea 13 and Isaiah 63? What does Revelation 13 have to do with Book 6, Chapter 6, Verse 6 and the name Adonikam in Ezra 2:13? Anything at all? or nothing? or something... is scripture an unbroken tapestry?
Now there is an eternal riddle... the greatest riddle in scripture which leads to the revelation of Christ and the Gospel (John 20:21-23).
Do not think that my questions and answers come as adversarial to you, nor question you... but indeed reveal the truths you've just brought forth with inspired gratitude and a sharpened sword (1 Samuel 21)! Thankyou! Great video!
It doesn't matter how YOU think of these saints. It's up to the congregation to decide whether they accept a former adulterer as a pastor. And any congregation is well within their rights to reject such a man as their pastor.
@@PedroEnamorado Correct, it is up to the congregation, but presumably, this video is advising the congregation on how to decide.
We are a society raised wrong. If we from our youth were taught by our parents and elders and pastors to forgive the repentant we would be far more equipped for restoration, instead we rely on Time to heal wounds.
Amen!
I would have a hard time sitting under the teaching of a pastor that committed adultery.
What does repentance look like? Is it restoration with his wife or just him being sorry? Can there be repentance if the pastor marries the woman he had an affair with?
If reputation is so important to determine an adulterous pastor's situation, then surely it is in the interests of the church to NOT disclose a pastor's adultery? After all, the less people know the better.
Of course such an argument is wrong. And I'm concerned that reputation will be used to cover up pastoral sins.
I do not believe there is any sin that would permanently disqualify someone from being a pastor that is saying that God's grace wouldn't cover that sin
I agree with some of this but you didn’t give scripture on why a man who falls has to wait so long to return to the pulpit. I believe in restoration,. David prayed, ‘Against thee and only thee have I sinned’
This isn't "thus saith the Lord" it is practical wisdom that has scriptural basis. The qualifications for an elder say he must be above reproach. Yes we should forgive, but a lot of healing has to be done and trust restored first.
Thank you Pastor York. On a side note, I’ve been wondering what kind of Bible you have on the desk in front of you sir?
Time is the excuse of atheists. It will take a long long long time for a creature to evolve from one thing to another. Etc…. It will take a long long long time to really go through repentance. The magic of Time! We as a people are poorly equipped for the ministry of reconciliation and restoration because we have been taught that it is Time that heals wounds, not the Father.
The truth isn’t that it takes a long time to go through repentance, but rather Time is the magical cure for a cold and forgetful heart.
How long did Jonah have to wait to preach again after he sinned? I dont mean this unkind because this senior minister gives some very good advice, but many times man oversteps thier "displinary" actions when only God can forgive and restore. The nursing home and the pulpit are both sharing the Gospel.
Amen
What about Pastors that are over weight, obese even, they will have a heart attack and die and leave a family in ruins and a church because they did not take appropriate steps tp guard themselves and their families and the church they will leave behind.
Yes . And what about pastors that get rich from writing “ Christian “ books , speaking deals , and paid for being a board member?
@@jonyoung6405 While I largely despise television evangelist that preach prosperity gospel and get rich off of the tithes and offerings, and despise the practice of pastors getting paid large sums of money just for a speaking engagment.
Writing books and speaking engagments are what people all over the world gwt paid for, from realestate to how to live a better life, to health and fitness, so when a pastor, a christian writes a book as long as it theologically sound, and it is if a benefit for the body, how a person makes their money is fine, as long as it is legit and theologically sound it has no play on if someone is fit to hold the office of pastor, which was what this was about.
@@insiderevolverstudios I guess Jesus and the Apostles did not receive that memo since they died penniless and martyred. Cheers.
What if it is idolatry? No one speaks about pastors being in freemasonry which is full of idolatry.
I agree with somethings he says but no where in the Bible does it say you can't continue being a pastor. Now if a pastor is caught in sin and doesn't want to repent then yes he should step down. If he is in the middle of a divorce he should step down and deal with it. Biblically speaking Look at David.look at Moses. Both did bad things under God but they were not removed from their position. So we understand that yes the goal should be resored with God and the church and if he has truly repented, then i don't think that he should be permanently disqualified. Ppl lets not supercede Gods word over church bi laws.
Men, love your wives!
I believe you do have wisdom, but I wonder about the Apostle Paul. He was a leader in the Jewish religion, he believed he was walking in full knowledge of God. Yes he was transformed on his journey when he met Christ. But honestly I can’t think of anyone who had more sin that was ultimately to the highest level of being egregious as you say, but look at what occurred. It could be said his use as a leader came despite the full knowledge of his sin.
I ultimately believe it is in Gods timing and full knowledge of everything, that he so chooses to use others, in whatever capacity he so creates.
So we have remember never to count out Gods calling to anyone.
Paul also walked with Jesus for three years before his public ministry and was affirmed by Barnabas and other Jerusalem leaders. That (prior sentence) speaks to the long road Dr. York is referring to while not discounting what you've stated. Part of Paul's repentance was his private preparation for public ministry. We must remember those three years of discipleship.
@@paullaso3645 yes there are the 3 yrs of discipleship. I just have issues with certain people saying someone can’t be used because of past.
Let’s be honest here, unless Gods equip you, any ministry will be a disaster. So let’s just let God lead and stop defining in man’s eyes when
Someone is able or not.
That's why the man in the video said "probably not" rather than "definitely not."
@@porkyfedwell not to quibble but rarely a distinction between the two, people just use those phrases depending who is present
@@paullaso3645 Jesus was gone before Paul's conversion. They never walked together.
How many Elders are divorced and remarried or married to a divorced woman?
@@ScribeOfBoom I see that you are disqualified as an Elder.
Should we leave the church if one of the pastors got a divorce?
Great question. I think it depends on the circumstances. There are some circumstances that warrant leaving the church if a pastor gets divorced, and there are some circumstances that don't warrant leaving the church if a pastor gets divorced. I think if a pastor's marriage ends in divorce because the pastor's spouse was abusive towards him, the pastor's spouse cheated on him, the pastor and his spouse weren't compatible (sometimes people make the mistake of marrying someone they aren't compatible with, and it's important for 2 people to be compatible in order for a marriage to work out.), etc, I don't think someone should leave a church over something like that.
I would hire a divorced person to be a pastor of a church, but I'd definitely thoroughly investigate the circumstances surrounding the divorce before considering a divorced person to be a pastor. I believe in hiring divorced pastors whose marriages ended in divorce due to the pastor's spouse being abusive, due to the pastor's spouse cheating on him, and due to the pastor and his spouse not being compatible. I wouldn't hire a pastor whose marriage ended in divorce due to the pastor being abusive, due to the pastor being an unrepentant serial adulterer, etc. I wouldn't hire a pastor that divorced his wife due to her getting less attractive, getting paralyzed, etc.
If someone was an unrepentant serial adulterer before they became saved, and they have been saved for 20 years, and they aren't an unrepentant serial adulterer anymore, they're a strong Christian, they're a new creation, they don't act like how they were before they were saved, etc, I think someone like that is qualified to be a pastor of a church.
Is there an email somewhere that I can ask a question privately? Thanks!
All sounds nice, but the absence of scriptural references for action in obvious
I found your understanding to be very interesting. Time I do agree is not the answer but true repentance. Let us say that a church does not wish to have him as their pastor because of this past sin, have they not forgave him as Christ forgives us?
There is not a pastor yet that can stand sinless before their flock. Now are we going to begin to rate sins 1 to 10?
If that preacher has moved away and a church has ask him to preach, does he go full blown into his sins? I say no, because you have ask for repentance and you have seeked God in all His mercy and grace… then stop carrying that sin with you everywhere you go. Satan would love for us to keep our sins in our minds and heart even after forgiveness, because it would destroy the testimony God has put in our lives.
(I didn't watch the video.)
If an elder (or whatever term you wish to use) is found to be
in a serious sin, like adultery. Then I'd say that individual should
be removed from that position for a long time. You can forgive
them instantly, but that person must demonstrate over a period
of time (personally, a few years at least) that they can be trusted.
Their sin was serious and they broke trust with the congregation
by keeping the sin hidden. If they were caught in the adultery, then
they kept it hidden as long as they possibly could.
I understand your view on this. I’m not saying or even thinking you are wrong in saying what you did. I concur with making sure that person has repented and began to rebuild that what was lost. Satan would love to destroy every preachers testimony even if he could tell everyone about the “little lie” that was spoken in time of prevented hurt feelings.
I hope we can always look toward the cross for that forgiveness and grace Jesus gave to us all that day on that hill called Calvary.
I really hope that any preacher that has fallen from the position of leader of the church can forgive himself for his transgressions.
What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word.
Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary.
What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those in the New Covenant.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Watch the UA-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
=============================================================================================================
Old Covenant Baptism vs. New Covenant Baptism (water vs. Spirit)
Water baptism was a part of the Old Covenant system of ritual washing. The Old Covenant priests had to wash before beginning their service in the temple. (Ex. 30:17-30) When Christ was water baptized by His cousin John in the Jordan River, He was under the Old Covenant system. He also only ate certain foods, and wore certain clothes, as prescribed by the 613 Old Covenant laws. Christ was water baptized by John and then received the Holy Spirit from heaven. The order is reversed in the New Covenant. A person receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion, and then believers often declare their conversion to their friends and family through a water baptism ceremony. Which baptism makes you a member of Christ’s Church?
The New Covenant conversion process is described below. (Born-again)
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(A person must “hear” the Gospel, and “believe” the Gospel, and will then be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit.)
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(See Jer. 31:34 for the New Covenant promise, and 1 John 2:27 for the fulfillment)
============
Which baptism is a part of the salvation process, based on what the Bible says?
What did Peter say below?
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and is found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. Unfortunately, many modern Christians see water when they read the word "baptize" in the text.
Based on the above, what is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below? How many times is the word "Spirit" found in the passage, and how many times is the word "water" found in the passage?
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, (See 1 Cor. 12:13)
“baptize” KJV
Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Water or Holy Spirit?, See Eph. 1-13.)
Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Joh_1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
1Co_1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (See Eph. 4:1-5)
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. (Old Covenant ----> New Covenant)
How many people have been saved by the Old Covenant water baptism of John the Baptist?
Who did John the Baptist say is the greatest Baptist that ever lived in Luke 3:16? What kind of New Covenant baptism comes from Christ?
How many people have committed adultery with their eye? What about Pastors who losr their temper or eat too much and dont exercise self control? Why pick on one sin? if a pastor is truly repentant, why cant he be restored?
Get that money
What money?🙄🙄🙄🙄🤡
Where are the Scriptures that state a fallen pastor can not be restored ever again for any specific sin? I'm not saying I disagree that someone should never be trusted with leadership again. I am, however, asking where the biblical mandate for this is written. The word, "permanently," when it comes to disqualification, isn't found in Scripture. Are we not aware of Christian leaders who have committed incredibly horrendous acts be used by God for tremendous impact for the Kingdom? Because permanent disqualification is an unbiblical concept (not always inappropriate per se, but unbiblical, meaning it's not mandated in the bible), could imposing this rob the redemption story God may want to show and tell? Could this be a self-righteous and pretentious act that snuffs out what God intends to do through this? It could be argued that Peter was, in fact, a believer when he denied Jesus, not once, but three times, as he looked Jesus right in His eyes. Is this a permanent disqualification? Paul felt as though he was the "Chief" of all sinners (present tense by the way, although he could've been referring to his pre-Christ life, but I don't think so). He viewed all sin as spitting in the face of Christ and all of his good deeds as "dung." He said there was nothing good in him, except the Spirit. Thus, this concept of permanent disqualification smells of pretentious and religious snobbiness from those who have, perhaps, never had a major debilitating struggle or event in their past. True or untrue? I don't know, but that's how it comes across to me. Can anyone name one person in the Bible who was permanently disqualified due to sin? If not Scripture, then what basis is this built upon? If you say wisdom, then who's wisdom? I am not attacking. This is written with a soft and sincere attitude. If I'm wrong, I'm willing to hear and learn. Blessings.
The people in the pews need to leave the Church if they are living in sin. Only the Holy will inherit the Kingdom.
When was the last time you taught or spoke on church discipline and didn't leave out 1 Timothy 5:20-22. I have witnessed favortism amongst Elders and "iconic" celebrity "Pastors", Theologians, Elders, and False Teachers.
That's because the churches of celebrity pastors often aren't functioning as churches, they are functioning as organizations controlled by and focused on the celebrity.
Isn’t the Blood of Christ enough?
Enough for forgiveness, but adultery makes it very hard for a church to trust a pastor
Follow the logic. AN ELDER MUST BE the husband of one wife. Remarried after an unbiblical divorce, is adultry, Romans 7.
So to be a pastor after adultry, they still need to be married in a qualified way.
AND THE ONLY option to them is the wife they cheated on.
They seeking to be a ruler, outside of that - is it's own proof that they are not qualified, that they are after the job for thier own glory.
Digressing - there are FOUR people involved in a remarriage. Two broken couples from which one new couple comes. The probablity that all four had legal reasons to divorce is very small. And these day's, at least one of the four is on thier 2nd, or 3rd+ marriage. Someone in the equation sought an unbiblical divorce. That person remarring makes them BOTH adulterous, even the partner who was not adulterous, by marring the adultrous one, becomes and adultrous.
AND - elders with more than average wisdom under thier belts will be looking out for the "engineered" divorce, like a DA would watch out for a false claime of abuse or abuse of the children by someone trying to use the power of the courts to gain leverage - falsely.
Crooks try to finger someone else for thier crimes all the time. Pitty those who endure lies in courts.
"For outside are dogs and sorcerers, and sexually immoral (cf Rmns 7), murderers and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
What is the view from heaven?
"And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image..."
Notice - Jesus actively, forever, torments the unrepented in hell.
The saints will rejoice in the justice of it, because it glorifies God. That is by glorified, displays his atributes to be seen.
Don't fool around with the Holy God
Sinner's can be restored, consider lamentations 3.
So the pastor that used to lead Mars Hill?
@BillowsPillow He has no business leaving Mars Hill, refusing any counseling just to start another church. He has fully and utterly disqualified himself.
What do you mean by pastor? Those described in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus? Or those of Ephesians 4:11? The first refers to ELDERS who are the leadership and have a pastoring role (sheperding role) but the qualifications are clearly spelled out in 1 Tim 3 and Titus and reputation outside the church is indeed a necessary criteria for eldership (which should be in the plural - no one man leaders in the New Testament). As for the calling of pastor in Ephesians 4:11-12...
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up"
... there is NO specification (not even gender). A pastor in that sense of calling does not need a title or pastorship because they (Eph 4:11) are given by Christ to the ekklesia (even if they have had a dark past) for the equipping of the church. They are now children of God living a new life (assuming they are walking with the Lord). They are a new creation. Christ called them to serve the church.
The problem is that the church system has created many rules based on tradition and not rooted in the scripture. For example, is the clergy-laity divison. There was no special priesthood and no titles among first disciples. Not even the Apostles carried titles. This system usurps the universal priesthood of all believers who are all livingstones in the house hold of God (1 Peter 2). We need to be careful not to disqualify the saints even God qualified them through his calling.
Perhaps the most thorough treatment of this issue is Alexander Strauch's "Biblical Eldership." Strauch argues--and I believe convincingly--that the qualifications mentioned in the NT all refer to the same office. In other words the terms shepherd, elder, teacher, etc. are synonymous. May I humbly commend this book to you.
Those leading a flock
@@mchristr Elders may be pastors but not all pastors are elders. They are not the same. Orherwise the apostles, teachers, evangelists and prophets are also synonymous with elders. They can be but those callings/functions are not necessarily the leadership.
@@ReturntoActs I appreciate your response. Again, let me invite you to entertain Alex Strauch's very biblical argument concerning a plurality of elders, and who would be included in that office. Blessings.
I would most definitely recommend a book by Alexander Strauch entitled "Biblical Eldership". He does an excellent job of explaining biblical eldership as far as qualifications and also disqualifications. He goes into detail explaining how Elder, Pastor, Bishop, all relate and how they are used synonymously. He not only deals with these topics but much more. Check it out you will find his exegeses of this subject is on or above par with any on the subject.
This sounds nice but it’s based on opinion not scripture. He made a point if a pastor commits a great sin that it should take a long time for him to be restored by a pastoral board but how can a board restore him when it was God who called him? Do they have more authority than God? Of course not. The idea that a person has to wait to serve God in the capacity in which he was called until people can look past his sin is ridiculous. If he repents or anyone else for that matter and God forgives him who then has the right not to? Videos like this are dangerous because they sound good but have no scriptural backing. Can you make a part two to this and give scriptures supporting your opinions? Thank you in advance.
AMEN!
Here is a disqualifier for pastoral ministry, no Apostolic succession.
@@ScribeOfBoom Tell it to Jesus when you see him.
Sin is a rather ugly (death-producing) symptom of unbelief. The Christian life, in this old world, will be marked by it often; there are times when what we see and feel is a horrible attack against the promise of Jesus' mercy for us. Sometimes this sin will be quite visible, but the sin is no less damaging when it remains invisible to others or in your heart (think of Jesus' sermon on the mount in Matthew 5). In this video, do you fear that you're putting forth an elevated demand for pastors in the law, as if they are not sinners also? Could the peace and comfort of God's promise be taken away by a command to "be better than that" knowing that our hearts are not capable of extinguishing the problem of sin? The sense of call for a pastor here suggests that to administer the Lord's Supper and preach God's Word faithfully is contingent on the "goodness" of the pastor (or by some "superpower in the law" that they've been given by God, which is largely a turn back to Roman Catholicism). This runs counter to Scripture, as there we can find moments of unbelief and sin in every prophet and preacher (the promise is attacked by the devil, the world, and our sinful selves in this old world). God uses them anyway. Now, would the sins of a pastor be a deterrent to a congregation calling them to that role? YES! It very well could! That sin could be a real barrier to faith in the Good News that should be preached, and so it follows that this person would NOT be called to the pastoral office. Are we to "look" for years and years of contrition to remedy the problem of sin in this person's life? Are we to expect the pastor to be really, really good at our standard of the law to make his own way back? That leaves those such as the apostle Paul outside of the boundary for preaching ("Oh wretched man that I am"). It leaves the disciples (Christ's betrayers like you and me) that Jesus found in the upper room out as well. God uses sinners to get His Word to other sinners, and He gives us the keys (John 20) to forgive those sins in the name of Christ. He commands us to use those keys to deliver his mercy (the gospel), not to give them a bigger and better "wishy-washy" law.
@@meaganwelch1841 A pastor who __________________ shouldn’t be a pastor, especially if they know it is sin? What if the pastor votes? After all, according to the law, they’ve just sinned against the wishes of roughly half of the population. How about if he/she gives to charity? This person would have helped some people who needed it, but it did nothing for millions of others who could have really used it! Even in your “best works” according to the law, you are loving some and forsaking others. You’re sinning. What if the pastor has gotten angry with his brother or sister before? Will that forbid him from the pastoral office? This is sin, too, and all sins do have consequences according to the law. The punishment is death. If sinning was a barrier to the job, whether they “know” they’re sinning or not, it would preclude everyone from preaching. I believe you’re speaking of immediate/earthly consequences of sin, such as the jobs they would be allowed to perform. But the consequences of all sin is death. Romans 3:23. Will certain, particular sins be too much for those extending the call? Functionally, yes. Some sins will be too much for the hearers in the congregation to overcome, and the gospel will not be heard. If that is the case, the pastor should not be called. Get him out of there. But, let’s not pretend that the pastor assumes that office because of any “righteousness in the law”. Thankfully, pastors are used by God to deliver his words, law and GOSPEL, to others. It is a word of Jesus Christ, coming through the mouth of a sinner, for sinners. The gospel word, when the Spirit gives his chosen faith in it, makes the Church.
As far as the relationship of sin and unbelief, I will proclaim that sin comes out of unbelief (breaking the 1st commandment - not believing that God is who He says He is - the one who delivers mercy to you). All of the other commandments fall apart if the first does not stand. The unclean (unbelieving) heart will produce exactly what you mention - greed, envy, lust, and other nasty symptoms. But Faith, when one has the Spirit, has none of these symptoms. In faith, you have Christ. You can’t even sin in the moment you have faith in Christ as your redeemer. Genesis 3 - “the fall” - has much to say about original sin as unbelief. The move of the serpent is to drive a wedge between Eve’s ear and hearing God’s promise. Satan does this - He tries to point to what you see and feel in this old world, instead of what God is actually saying to you. The devil tries to produce doubt instead of faith. Jesus sums up sin as unbelief in John 16:9 as well. May God's grace be with you!
Please tell me you are not a leader in a church. First of all, you are completely missing what Paul is actually saying in Romans 7 AND 8. There were no chapters and verses when the Bible was written. Paul is not saying, "I am wretched and God is good with that." NO! NO! NO! Paul makes his meaning clear in Romans 8.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
He is saying that without the redeeming, regenerating, and sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit he is dead. He even says, "Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." 8:9
There is no way the Holy Spirit is dwelling in someone who is living according to the flesh.
@@rodrocketon9480 “Please tell me you are not a leader in a church.”
- Yes, that IS a vocation put on my life, and I am glad to be used in this capacity. I am a pastor who received a regular call from a congregation to preach God’s Word and administer His sacraments; to give Christ and His Justification apart from works of the law to sinners in my midst. They know and recognize that I am a fellow sinner in need of God’s mercy, but that (being a sinner) is not the basis on which I was called. There were no stumbling blocks that were a barrier to the call they extended to me. Instead they recognized that God could use a person like me, a baptized believer with my educational and experiential background, to distinguish law and gospel and provide pastoral care and be the “local absolver”, always in the name of Christ and by His command to deliver Himself and His gifts to His people.
“First of all, you are completely missing what Paul is actually saying in Romans 7 AND 8. There were no chapters and verses when the Bible was written. Paul is not saying, "I am wretched and God is good with that." NO! NO! NO! Paul makes his meaning clear in Romans 8.”
- Paul is not saying “I am wretched and God is good with that”, and neither am I! Sin is a serious matter, and look what Jesus Christ had to do about it - look at His death on the cross! Should we sin that sin grace may abound? BY NO MEANS! The apostle Paul quickly refutes the human question of whether we should “just sin more” or “eat, drink, and be merry” after we’ve been forgiven. This is not the fruit of true faith in God’s Word of mercy. Could you explain what it is that you say that I’m “completely missing”? This seems to be the basis that you feel should prevent me from leadership in the church. If you could pick out a particular portion, phrase, or sentence that I’ve written, that would be helpful. As it is, you’ve pointed out a wonderful passage about the relationship with law and gospel, the problem of sin, and how it hangs around us in this old world around the neck of the old you. Thankfully, you are two, not one. The passage also speaks of the new you, the one with faith, the one who lives by the Spirit instead of the flesh, the one that God created through his gospel promise word in your baptism. What a wonderful gift of God this baptism is, a baptism that unites an old sinner with Christ’s death (!) AND with his resurrection. You are made new, God’s own child, by God’s wonderful announcement. And, yes, I’m aware that the books of the Bible were not written with designated chapters and verses. I’m not sure where that comes into things here.
“He is saying that without the redeeming, regenerating, and sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit he is dead. He even says, "Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." 8:9”
- Yes. It is the work of God alone that makes a person “right” or “just”. The Holy Spirit is the giver of faith, the one who allows a poor sinner like you to open his/her ears to God’s promise of forgiveness, instead of continually hardening your heart to the promise. Without faith in that promise that is given to you (not something you earn or merit or “decide”), a person is dead meat.
“There is no way the Holy Spirit is dwelling in someone who is living according to the flesh.”
- I agree with this. However, are you suggesting that the old you, the one that doesn’t believe God’s promise is for him/her, the one without faith doesn’t still walk about the earth for a time? Do you never have moments of unbelief, where the symptoms of selfishness, greed, envy, lust, or anger come out? Do you have moments in which you think you deserve more than you’re getting? Are you ever angry with a boss, coworker, or family member? Are you always able to attribute the best intentions in others? Are you now able to fulfill all of the commandments, and the commandments put forth by Jesus in the sermon on the mount? Paul wasn’t able to. No one is able to, except for Jesus Christ. After all, a truly selfless person would die. I simply must get to know who you are if you can refrain from any and all moments of selfishness. This is precisely what Paul is speaking of in Romans 7. “But I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.” For Paul and everyone else I’ve ever known, the Old Adam sticks around until death. This is why a person doesn’t go to church or have their sins forgiven in the name of Christ just once. (Unfortunately, some might go to church and not have their sins forgiven at all, which is sadly leaving the people in their sin.) God’s word of forgiveness needs to get back in your ear again and again, because the old you’s final death hasn’t happened yet. The promise that makes us new is attacked by the devil, the world, and our sinful selves again and again and again. Without the promise of Jesus Christ in your ear, there is no real peace, comfort, or hope. This is the age for preaching Christ into those ears, the promise that creates faith where there was none. And the word is for you, @rodrocketon9480: Jesus Christ forgives you all your sins.
@@ohoegh 13 Therefore, preparing your minds for action,[b] and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
I Peter 1:13-16
4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's[b] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
I John 3:4-10
Of course, most Calvinists simply rip I John 1:8 out of the context (much like Paul's "wretched" statement in Romans 7). And the other thing the faithful Calvinist does is explain to me how this passage from I John 3 does not mean what it clearly means.
@@rodrocketon9480 Am I, who has not been described as a “faithful Calvinist” before, being accused of ripping something out of context here? Or of saying that something doesn’t mean what it clearly means? Or are you putting forth an argument that I’m GOING to rip 1 John 1:8 out of context… like… in the future? I’m missing the intent of your most recent comment. I’d prefer not to engage straw man arguments, or to be labeled something without some evidence articulated.
I don't think there is any sin including repented adultery that disqualifies a person becoming a pastor. Some of the best pastors I've know are men that have a past with this. This man better be living a 100% sinless lifestyle to make that comments like that. All sin is notorious.
1 Timothy 3 He must be a one woman man. Dont make excuses for these disqualified “pastors”, those “best pastors” you know should not be pastors. The Lord has the highest standard for the leaders of His churches, its not perfection but it is beyond reproach, which someone who commits adultery as a believer is not.
1 Timothy 3 disqualifies Peter.
Taking the number or mark of the BEAST and or blaspheming the Holy Spirit!!!
Was Paul more well known for his repentance then he was known for killing Christians ??
Completely agree with the first part of the video but God can change a person in a single day. To say “it takes a long long time” is putting God in a box. It most like will take a long time. But God has taken a murder and changed him into a church leader over night.
As crazy as it sounds who are we to say he can’t change someone that completely and quickly again ?
Would it be a different story if Paul proclaimed Christ while killing Christians? In my mind, Paul fits more neatly in the category of those who have a past life but then are born again.
Still, I see your point about how saying a long time could be limiting. Seems to me like he's had some experience counseling fallen pastors and has found that the inclination of the flesh is to shortcut repentance in an eagerness to return to the pulpit. He could have been more careful, however, to separate for his audience his experiential wisdom from Scripture's requirements.
There were years YEARS between Paul killing Christians and his becoming a leader in the church with baby steps along the way. Paul was converted almost overnight but not trained overnight. He had to eat humble pie for a long time.
I would say that Paul actually went away into seclusion for several years before taking in the full mantle of Apostle
@@jeremytuggy9 whether Paul was saved or unsaved during his acts of egregious sin is irrelevant to the man’s answer in this video. The man’s answer in the video is “if your sin is too big then it’s your own fault people can’t forgive it” essentially.
The apostle Paul would have been disqualified before he even started. You know because he was rude of speech, (2 Corinthians 11:6), called himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15), and (as Saul of Tarsus) gave the final consent to the stoning death of St. Stephen, the first Christian martyr (Acts 22:20). If he were alive today and did get into the pastoral ministry at all - it wouldn't take long for a background check to disqualify him. Some of you need to read your Bible and stop listening to failed and flawed people who try to tell you their take on the gospel the way they want it to be. Oh, Moses and King David would be disqualified as well - you know because Moses killed the Egyptian (Exodus 2::11-12) and David orchestrated the battlefield death of Uriah to make it look like just another tragic casualty of war as an attempt to cover up his adultery with Bathsheeba (2 Samuel 11:1-27), Not two men you would want today as pastors, am I correct?
Paul committed those crimes before his conversion (when he was still Saul). Afterwards all that nonsense stopped. As for David being a King and one who is responsible for upholding the standard of one who is called a pastor or elder are two different things. Also, God didn't allow David to build the temple because he had blood on his hands. The task was given to Solomon. David was punished greatly for what he did.
So what are the biblical qualifications for serving in a nursing home or going on trips with senior citizens? 😂 9:18
Suicide can disqualify someone from pastoral ministry.
well suicide would pretty much permanently disqualify them from going to walmart as well. Theyd be dead
@@johnathonbroussard7886
You'd be surprised how many people miss that, and start to argue with me until it hits them, "Oh..."
People hold men to a standard of pastoral qualifications while they themselves fall short of the required characteristics of a believer. Yes, a pastor ought to be a one woman man, yes he ought to have children in order to show he can be a father. Yes, he ought to be older in order to be called Elder because of what the word literally means. Yes yes… all this is true and appropriate. And yet, how can you call yourself a Christian if you are unable to forgive even when the wound is fresh? Jesus didn’t hang on the cross and say, “Father, maybe after I’ve had some time.. maybe after I’ve risen and the wounds heal, maybe then I can forgive them…” 😉
Just did not have the guts to give the right reason. If a pastor has committed adultery, he absolutely does not meet the qualifications to be an overseer in God's church.
2 Therefore an overseer[a] must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,[b] sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
I Timothy 3:2-3
7 For an overseer,[f] as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound[g] doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
Titus 1:7-9
Once you have committed adultery - you are not and can never be "above reproach." God may forgive you and you may find a way to serve him but you have disqualified yourself from leadership in any Christian church.
Most men in ministry fall short of these qualifications.
@@JonathanGrandt Well then they should not be in ministry. Should we be aligning with what the Bible says or with what John Calvin says? Those are not suggestions - those are commands.
If one has committed adultery or any sin listed in those verses AND repents, they can be above reproach, thus not disqualified. Unless you are holding his past sins against him, thus committing sin yourself. For the record, those verses make no mention of being disqualified from any service unto the LORD.
@@remnant8898 Being forgiven and being credible are two different things. And how many different times can he commit adultery and keep pastoring? At some point, doesn't his living have to align with his preaching? Of course, what you will find is that, after committing adultery, he will have a problem preaching personal holiness and purity. And according to your reasoning, couldn't a pastor molest a child and return to the pulpit after repenting?
@@rodrocketon9480 but who are you to determine who's credible or not? It certainly isn't the Scriptures.
Was Peter credible according to what he did in Galatians? And who and why would you put a tally on how many times one commits a sin? You're speaking in a way that revolves around unrepentant actions, and I'm not. And that's not true, unless you can confirm that every leader that has committed that sin or ANY sin has struggled to preach holiness and purity. But you can't. It's disappointing to see you being that judgmental and using egregious perverted acts as straw man arguments to hold on to your point.