Hey man I really appreciate all the content you put out, which is a hell of a lot. my only problem is I can't always watch it everyday and get overwhelmed trying to sort out your vids and what series they are part of etc. I guess it's my own personal problem though lol. Please keep supplying the world with hard facts and data as well as your valued opinion please. Thank you.
I've seen less knock sensor activity on my boosted Coyote at 15-17psi on E85, compared to running 7-8 psi on 91, both fuels using dedicated optimized tuning. I hope E85 never disappears from the pump. Great video!!
Richard whats the chances of doing a vid demonstrating how you build a timing map? I understand every engine wants different things but it will give us guys playing at home an idea of how to do it. Love your work as always! 👍🏻
Trust me, you don't want his timing maps. His timing maps are for max effort on the dyno with good fuel, 120-130 degree coolant temps, perfect ventilation, no underhood heat to worry about, no knock sensors. In real life where lugging exists from being hooked up to an actual vehicle drivetrain there are spots in the powerband that will not tolerate nearly as much timing. Plus, the most important area is down in the 1500-2500 part throttle range, something that doesn't even get touched on a dyno.
On paper, Ethanol is worth 4% more by chemical energy, BUT it needs the right compression ratio. I computed it out using ledenfrost models about 4 years ago. Fail E85 : 10.7:1. Doesn't have enough compression to make the fuel activate all the way, but it can work. Factory E85 : 11.8:1, sub 42 degrees of intake valve event. This puts knock potential at TDC, 1.0 Lambda. Easy to tune. 7% gain Street/strip E85 : 12.2:1, . Again, less than 42 degrees of ABDC IVC. This puts the knock point at 26 degrees. Needs sub 1 lambda all the time. 7.6% gain. Strip: 13.4 :1 Add 1 point of compression for every 15 degrees after 50 degrees ABDC. If you make it here, you already know this.
If you are not picking up power on E85 vs pump gas, you are not running it rich enough. You do not lean it out to make more power on ethanol like you do with gasoline, throw fuel at it instead. Best power on E85 is around 7.5:1. best mileage with good power is around 8:1 to 9:1 AFR. Timing also plays a part too, as does head/chamber design. As I explained in my other post on this video, the reason ethanol makes more power is it has more oxygen in it. Adding more fuel adds more oxygen, and it compounds as you add more. Oxygenated race gas will keep up power wise because it has more oxygen in it, but it is hideously expensive and E85 around here is under $2 a gallon. Even an 8:1 engine will puck up power if you get it enough ethanol. It might only be 8-20hp, but its less money and still more power. Low compression will result in lower mileage, but around 12:1 compression NA you will see the same mileage as on gasoline, and ethanol will pick up mileage along with power above 13:1. Lots more power, and using even less fuel.. still more win. From High Performance Pontiac magazine before they were bought by the owners of HRM. www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-1109-testing-different-fuel/ it also cools the intake charge, but that is very limited in a port fuel system, works a lot better with a carb where the fuel has more time to vaporize and pull heat out of the intake tract. You will see more power the farther up the intake tract you introduce the fuel, also more cooling because it has more time, and if you run the fuel hot enough in the EFI lines you can make power AND increase mileage. the turbo is heating the intake air, ethanol cools it even with port fuel injector location. you get a little bit with direct fuel injection, but that goes completely against how ethanol works, so you will probably use a lot more ethanol in a DI engine. It DOES NOT eat your fuel system or engine gaskets, it will however clean all the varnish out of your fuel system and clog the pump, filter, and injectors. Additives are what cause the corrosion issues, not the ethanol. DO NOT ADD ANYTHING TO YOUR FUEL. Its bad enough when the oil companies do it. You know Jeff Smith as the tech editor of HRM and also for Summit Racing. Here is his article about corrosion on ethanol. www.onallcylinders.com/2018/05/25/ask-away-jeff-smith-e85-pump-gas-additives-not-ethanol-cause-corrosion/ I've been running ethanol both mixed like E30-E98 and E100 that I make from tree sap, converting and tuning carbs like Holley, Demon, and my beloved Qjets. I am the go to info source for E85 Qjets. Look into it and you will find the info I have provided with m 455 Pontiac powered GTOs and Firebirds. I build my engines with as much compression as I can, my daily driver 65 GTO has an iron head 455 with 11.5:1 and closed chamber heads, it likes 42 degrees total advance, the 67 vintage 400 heads don't have a good chamber shape to go with the large quench areas. In the 90s those same heads wanted 52 degrees total on 100 octane VP or Sunoco race gas. My tuning and mileage testing mule is a 13:1 455 with open chamber 69 RA III heads that have been ported to flow 70cfm more than stock. They do not have the center crossover filled so the intake can get warm, which helps with vaporization. It makes tire shredding torque, well over 600ftlbs from what I can tell based on its ease in moving a 4100lb 70 GTO, and gets 20mpg with a Qjet, 700R4, and 3.42 gears. Mid 11s is where both of them run, and the 65 is a lot lighter than the 70, like 700lbs. It costs me 10 to 40 cents to make a gallon from tree sap or cattails, respectively. it also requires about a weeks worth of work to make enough for the year, mostly cleaning as the yeast do the heavy lifting for me. You need a good amount of space to produce ethanol, I have lots of trees with 3% to 5% sugar in the sap, (around 300 sugar maples) no need to cut them down, just tap it like maple syrup. Syrup is far more valuable if you want to sell it though, I drive my cars more than I eat pancakes or waffles. If you want to know how it all works, just ask me. Its very simple, but has legal requirements. I will be making some videos about all of this in the near future. I use an Innovate wideband in my header collectors to measure the AFR, I do not run it on the gas scale, I want it to read what its actually doing, because the mix might be different from spring to summer, and my home brew tunes a bit different with no gasoline added to it.. I have alternative methods of denaturing the vodka. Lambda measures stoich, so I don't use that either, because best power and best mileage are a good distance apart in tuning. I don't have an engine or chassis dyno, so my measurements are all ET/MPH based. I am not the only one testing either, a group of us compare our tunes and a couple friends do Holley/Demon conversions for people. You can try to run ethanol like you do gasoline, but I will make more power and use less fuel than you do. I put Richard in touch with Mark Sullens, but Richard didn't want our nearly two decades of tuning/racing information. Its ok though.
Saying that ethanol does not eat you fuel system is over simplistic and therfore incorrect. In a 2020 vehicle that would be a correct statement, in a older vehicle with natural rubber lines, fuel tanks containing lead, and cork gaskets the ethanol absolutely will cause sever deterioration and be problematic.
And you will never get more fuel milage out of e85 then regular gas if thats what you are trying to claim, it has less BTUs per gallon therefore will ALWAYS consume more fuel per mile traveled.
I'm pretty sure when Richard was quoting AFR's he was expressing the ethanol mixture in petrol equivalent. It would have been better to say lambda. There is no way he was actually running 12.8:1 on ethanol at full load, because it would probably miss and pop and make no power. In reality, his mixture gauge was telling him both vehicles were running a lambda of 0.87. He just didn't switch it over to ethanol for the AFR conversion when he switched fuels. We usually do the same thing with customers because most aren't equipped (or inclined) to try and understand the difference (the looks on their faces if you tell them the actual mixture you run with methanol is hilarious).
Never had q16 compare to good pump e85 and it took roughly 2-3 more in timing. Then ignite made the same difference on the same e85 tune over e85 as e85 did over q16.
@@JoshCP527 I haven't done much comparison with Q16, but the Ignite stuff does work. Can only assume that the gasoline they mix in has a lot less volatility at high cylinder pressure (and it has a little more ethanol too). Picked up almost 40 hp on a 1000 whp LT4 switching from pump E85 to Ignite.
If an NA gasoline engine is set up such that you can give it all the timing it will take without detonation, I can see where the Ethanol wouldn't change anything. If the NA gas motor is finicky and detonates with timing that would give it more power, you back off the timing to let the motor live. In that case I can see how the extra detonation resistance of E85 would allow more timing and therefore better numbers. Things like chamber shape, piston speed, overlap, charge density, intake charge temp, reversion, and head temp all affect this. But I am well aware that you already know all of this and more. Interesting video. In Harleys with high static CR and in Harleys with boost, E85 works better as the motor runs cooler all else being equal. That winds up yielding better numbers largely due to allowing more timing.
@@ttank94 If I remember correctly, E85 actually liked more higher temperature. It's best to run on E85 around 170 to 190 temp. Produces less power if ran cold, like 120-130 temp. But yea, to have the most benefit of E85 you should use a higher compression ratio, depenging of the combustion chamber design.
With a 13:1 compression motor, the power increase you'd see with E vs pump gas is a 100% increase because nobody in the right mind would even think about going WOT with that much compression on pump gas. Jokes aside, you don't need race gas/E for a point or 2 more than 9:1, just not high enough. The combustion chamber characteristics of the LS are efficient enough that the max "safe" compression ratio for pump gas (N/A) IMO is between 11.5-12:1, ask me how I know (N/A 6.0, 11.5:1 comp 620hp on pump gas in my chevelle). You don't need race gas or E85 for an LS with 11:1. Now on the other hand, with a small block chevy/ford/mopar or big block chevy/ford/mopar, I would start to look at running E or race gas in stuff over 11:1.
When going higher compression ratio, the difference between pump gas and E85 gets better (for E85). E85 allows to run ridiculous amount of compression, e.g 13:1 dynamic** compression ratio w/o any problems if the cylinder head has a modern combustion chamber. How much static compression ratio depends a lot how much intake/exhaust cam duration you have, and cam timing.. it could be 14-16:1 to have 13:1 dynamic compression ratio. Methanol is even better. But there are limits, when more comp is not better - combustion chamber efficiency and flame travel are more important. Ridiculous compression ratio with efficient combustion chamber and alcohol fuel means a lot of torque -> power, if the engine can breath when the rpm climbs.
@@juhonmoottoripaja2443 Completely agree. IMO E85 is a MUCH better option than almost any given race gas because it offers the same advantages over pump gas, and costs 1/10th of most race gas, only downside is the legal limit for being labeled "E85" spans from 55%-90% ethanol so a composition test should be done. Bucket list project of mine is to build my blown up 8.1 big block chevy for 800 or 900hp N/A and HUGE compression. Definitely using some E. Smells good too
Swapping over to LS this year and I was really having trouble deciding 6.0 vs 6.2 until i saw this video, with so power potential and the difference in price im going with the 6.0, thanks for another great video Richard thumbs up
@@niknasstie www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=468070 The car does have a rotofab cai but on a stock 6th gen camaro that is only about 5-8 hp gain and yes it has a lot to do with direct injection
@303StreetMachines no it's not at all. If it were it would be as big of a turd as a 351. The old sbc had the beat down all over furd smallblocks. Why would they go backwards?
On my 2015 Chevy Cruze with a flex sensor installed I like to run about a 30 to 35% alcohol mix. It really runs good at that amount. Way better than 93 octane with 10% ethanol. It also is letting the computer command about 2psi more boost that way.
Years ago E85 was so cheap, U buy a control box and mix it urself, but the stupid government saw the potential for profit and tax ethanol portion very high. A few years ago one servo franchise started selling E85 on. Around 20 cents cheaper than unleaded. Now 30cents dearer. Good on U Australia
I would LOVE to see you do a e85 nitrous test. Mark Sullens who builds e85 carbs claims you don't have to pull any timing with nitrous when e85 is the main fuel and nitrous fuel. I believe him but I would love to see a test proving it to the disbelievers and also to see how much more power it's worth with the same jet!!
You didn't see much gain na because all these truck motors are low compression. Couple that with a cam and you'll lower the dcr more and make e85 nearly useless on a combo like that.
You say that E-85 is less expensive, and per gallon it is, but you have to use almost twice as much of it compared to gasoline. So to verify that if that statement is true it would be interesting to see the duty cycle comparison at the same fuel pressure and work out the comparative volumes used then figure out the cost difference between fuels.
You don't use twice as much. Interestingly, here in California, E85 is priced to provide a near equivalent cost per mile as 91 octane gasoline. It's close to a wash for a well tuned vehicle. But considering that you're getting the performance of $10-$15/gal race gas, it feels like a steal if your gas tank is big enough to avoid refueling every other day.
@@ChurchAutoTest - I was thinking of methanol using nearly 2x and I was assuming this wasn't too far off, I suppose I was incorrect. On another note, I really dislike (read hate) this state of CA. What city are you in? I'm in Fresno until I can escape.
@@rudyrayaaw5138 I'm in Los Angeles, but I have a biz in Texas now and am opening one in AZ soon. California is a dead state walking, just doesn't know it yet.
@@lapin46 correct, although it's slightly more since we're looking at fuel _mass_ and E85 density is slightly different than gas. Fortunately we can generally run it a touch leaner.
@@lapin46 True, true. Although if you're interested, you can look at freely available software like HP Tuners to see how your factory ECU is estimating fuel mass flow rate in its calculations, even without a flow meter. It becomes a little easier to grasp the AFR calc when you do it that way.
The LY6, being a truck engine originally, has 9.7 or so compression. It runs on 87 octane with a factory truck cam. Even with the TFS heads, assuming a 65cc chamber, the compression is just over 10:1. That should not stress the pump gas octane. I’m wondering what would happen to the NA test if you put flat top, or even a small domed, piston in this combo and retest. I’m thinking 11 or 11.5 to 1, maybe more. Reducing the combination of chamber, piston, and head gasket by 10-12cc would get you in that range. I’d think timing sensitivity would make that combo like E85 a lot, but only the dyno really knows! Can you test this for us, Richard? Love this channel!
I would also like to see the n/a e85 compared on a higher compression engine, I think that's where the big benefit is. Something 11:5.1 or better, e85 could really shin there, the pp gas would have to be run on lower timing to keep from knocking and the e85 would be able to take advantage where the pump gas couldn't. That would be cool too.
Unfortunately, i live in 1 of those states it's damn near impossible to find e85, CT. Nearest to me to buy it is 45-50miles away, n even trying to get 104 here is something like 8.50 a gal here, its ridiculous. Love ur vid's dude.
You need more compression as many have already said. If an engine will already make peak power before reaching detonation then changing fuel ain’t gonna do jack. You need compression or more heat in the motor so the alcohol can show it’s gains NA
If the engine don't need more octane, it ent going to thank you for it. 🇬🇧 gets 98 Ron. From the pump, we had a 1600cc sohc peugeot xu unit (205 gti) on 45mm Webber carbs and a reasonable race cam from piper cams here in the UK giving 183 bhp @ 8800 rpm and 126lbs/ft of torque at 5700-6300 rpm using 11.5:1 cr and changing to 101 Ron octane "race fuel" made no measurable (chassis dyno) differance either. We do not get E85.
Part of our winter upgrade plans is a bigger pump, bigger injectors to make the change to E85, Plus a TBSS intake to go from 492 wheel hp to 600+ wheel hp. Why 600 wheel hp? Because #burnoutsandicecream
Good Video Rich But there's a downside to this fuel though as I tell customer's when I'm gonna tune their car's or truck's it's not always E85 at the pump it varies octane on the time of the year as well. Plus the other bad things are you need to upgrade the entire fuel systems starting with compatible lines resistant to ethanol and filters too. The injectors needed have to be doubled in capacity plus must be cleaned every few months due to getting gunked up with crap and must be ran with regular gas to keep them lubricated every couple of tanks to lube up the system internally. So in the end cost of the total conversion to E85 plus the maintenance plus the tuning must be redone for E85 as well. It adds up.. So YOU gotta think about all.
Anything over e50-e60 you won’t see a huge gain. Also with a flex sensor running pump won’t be a issue that’s simple. It’s always better to overbuild a fuel system from the start.
Not exactly Sonic. First, you only need about 40% more fuel capacity at the same power/boost level. Second, any car made since about 2000 has to have lines and parts that can handle ethanol in gasoline since it's been mandated in most of the country since then. As reese mentioned, most guys running ethanol run flex fuel these days with a proper ethanol sensor to compensate for varying mixes. Even cars that don't have flex available from the factory can buy injector intercept kits now that modify injector duty cycle for ethanol content (use these on older dodges that don't have flex in the ECU operating system). I do tell my customers to run a tank of regular gasoline basically whenever they do their oil change to keep the injectors clean. But I have done 10,000 miles on my CTSV between tanks of 91 with no issues. I think its more a case of poor tank quality/maintenance at the gas station, or crap already in your tank being dislodged by E85. For older vehicles (80s and earlier to be sure), there are more issues to be considered, no argument there. But for anyone running more modern stuff, its a pretty painless conversion outside of the cost of bigger injectors/pump and retuning.
Without the cylinder pressure the octane becomes a hindrance. You need to be able to fully burn your fuel. My thoughts only...... Na gains would be from lower temps and greatly advanced timing do to a slower burn rate
Matches what we see on the chassis dyno. Something to think about.... Theoretically (I know, bad word) E85 should produce 5-6% more power than gasoline even if you don't run more timing. There is less energy in a gallon of E85 than gas, but you inject so much extra fuel that the energy liberated is 5-6% more. So why don't we see that on lower compression engines like the off-the-shelf LS stuff? I suspect it has something to do with the amount of fuel we're injecting, and how much air we're displacing. Perhaps also that we're quenching the combustion process somewhat, just like when we inject a ton of meth on an NA engine. This would also explain why LT engines see vastly larger gains with E85. They only pick up 7-8% more power naturally aspirated on E85, but torque gains can easily exceed 10% near peak VE. Why? They are higher compression, but the gains are too large to be explained by that. I suspect that the ability to inject a lot of the fuel after the intake valve has closed is a big part of it. When I'm tuning flex fuel on an LS equipped Tahoe or Silverado, one trick I find that helps me get a touch more output is to run a fair bit leaner on E85. You won't knock running 13.5 (that's a gas equivalent AFR, let's just say lambda of 0.92-0.93), but it seems to help just a bit. As for turbo engines, looks like it gained about 6% more power which is right on target for energy content changes from race gas to ethanol. Maybe the higher intake temps and increased mixture motion offsets any potential quenching/displacement issues.
I've always heard rumors that E85 can build boost faster because the chemical reaction of combusting E85 produces a greater volume of exhaust. Have you ever seen evidence of such a thing? And I think most LS guys would shy away from 30 degrees of timing NA on pump gas, so that might be where some people have found gains in E85--by having enough stomach to put the timing in under their E85 safety blanket
Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the difference in power come from the specific gravity? I think octane VS. specific gravity explaining fuel would be a good video for noobs like me.
The Ethanol molecule is smaller and less dense than Octane, however it also has lower caloric content, but more molecules can fit in a given space than Octane, so there's an overall net gain in caloric content at the cost of higher fuel consumption. Ethanol, being an alcohol, also will cool the air, and Ethanol fuel has around like 115 octane rating.
@@tommylyeah that’s kind of my point. The octane of the the two fuels is going to be very close. So with that in mind, they are going to differ in specific gravity creating better atomization due to being less dense, right?
You would make more power NA if you could increase the compression ratio. Form what I am seeing 13.1 on a sbc is pretty natural when it is corn fed :-)
You are burning at least 20% more fuel with the e85, I would think that the lower charge temp is helping increase power. I wonder if using ice water in intercooler would change the results to bring race fuel and e85 closer in the power?
NA applications that have really hot intake temperatures benefit more from E 85 such as Honda’s look how much power they get from turbo yet supercharged they don’t make as much on the same boost I believe it’s because of the intake temperatures. I wonder if you could test the intake temps at the manifold for ls and coyote direct injection engine’s get the most benefit since the e 85 shoots at the piston
I think you need more compression. I don't believe the LS family (especially truck engines) is compression limited so you aren't seeing much difference.
How much boost and timing can I run on my 4.8 twin holset hy35w turbos with 93 octane fuel? Its stock bottom end with ring gap. Truck intake with a cam. Made 416 hp na. Would it be safe to turn it up and make 1000hp on 93 octane if timing is conservative enough??
Even if you run single digit timing and 30 pounds of boost you're going to produce enough heat to detonate that pump swill. You could put some race gas in it and pull big dyno bragging numbers but on pump gas they really struggle above 700. And the variability in actual octane at the pump can cost you dearly. Press it hard on substandard fuel and it won't be pretty. One tank of mislabeled or contaminated fuel will spray the rods all over the road.
E85 has 4.5% more energy than gasoline when run at the same lambda. should run *less* timing because it burns faster. something is not right with the engine. btw you want 1-5/8" headers at 500 hp.
On ethanol vs gasoline, yes it will make more power despite having low compression, if you get it enough ethanol. More O2 means more power, and ethanol has more O2 in it, adding more makes more power until you go richer than 7:1 AFR, then it makes the some power but uses more fuel. You pick up so much more with boost because of how much ethanol cools the intake charge, ethanol has more exhaust gas volume as well, and you can really turn up the boost on it because ethanol doesn't want to light without a spark. www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-1109-testing-different-fuel/
I'm curious what A/F ratio you're running on the e85 both N/A and turbo. E100 has a lower density than gasoline and stoichiometric is 9:1 so you need to run quite a bit richer with E85.... like 8:1 for peak power. I suspect the cooling effect must be about the same with E85 vs pump gas on the N/A engine, but have a better cooling effect on the turbo engine. It may be interesting to see exhaust gas temperatures in the comparison also. Just for the fun of it, I tried a little math to calculate theoretical MAF and theoretical power and VE at the peak torque rpm of 5000 on the N/A engine. 6.0L/2 * 5000rpm/60sec/min * 1.184 g/L = 296 g/sec = 39.12 Lb/min MAF @100%VE multiply by 10 hp/lb/min airflow and I get 391 HP.... using the 450 hp number you had 450 hp/390 hp =.1.15 which is what the VE of the engine would be at 5000 rpm. I don't know if this is even possible, but the facts cannot lie. It would also be interesting to see some MAF numbers.
I just watched Brian Tooley talk about the valve timing relationship between intake valve open and the exhaust valve close and he said to ignore the lobe separation angle...do you believe that the LSA is important?
Its about how much fuel you give it, you can make more power with 8:1 compression and open chamber heads easily. www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-1109-testing-different-fuel/ I am running closed chamber heads on my Pontiac, they want more advance than the open chamber heads on another 455 of mine. Closed chamber is 11.5:1 static, the open heads have been milled so they make 13:1, the open chambers make more power, but that is probably due to the CNC porting vs hand porting and the compression ratio difference. Those 13:1 capable heads are monsters for iron heads.
Off of this topic. When we look at drag racing engines it seems a 540 is about as big of an engine that you typically see with turbos or some kind of supercharger while nitrous motors are approaching 1,000 cubic inches. Is there a limiting factor, or a rules restriction?
I have a 2k S10 Xtreme with a 4.3. Would love to know how much boost it can handle with stock motor. Then again, would dread putting it back to stock every 2 years as I live in CA.
E85 compared with pump plus water /meth would have been a better comparison.. Both are very effective but pump with water/Meth is way less cost factor and easier to set up doesn't need more fuel bigger injection system etc.. and not to mention easier to tune especially for street cars... and access isn't an issue... Tuner School Chanel also proved its effectiveness of running pump with water /meth mix to be close to power levels boosted as E 85 and higher than race fuel and even better if you can run both E85 and water /meth. Just a thought maybe you missed something during your comparison?
Mr Holdner, do you feel a 9 to 9.5:1 compression on a LSX type engine be safe on 91+ octane with up to 15lb of boost? What do you think "BALLPARK" max compression could be obtained because i know many supercharger companies even GM have put boost on 11:1 engines, i was just curious to what your take is with a good healthy cam of at (LEAST) 230* @ .050+ high duration cam types.. Because i wish to have a good healthy compression in case the charger may have issues etc, you can still have a really stout N/A only engine with a simple tune swap.
Happy New Year Richard! Have you seen anyone using 2 stroke oil or castor oil when using E85 to lubricate the valves? I am building a roots blown 540 with the Holley dominator with the injectors on top of the blower to lubricate the rotors and I want to run E85, but I’ve heard people having issues because it doesn’t have any lubricating properties, so I was concerned that it wouldn’t work injecting it into the top of the blower
Does the Coyote take less timing advance to make peak power than this LS? If the peak power timing is less advanced then the combustion happens faster so E85 must have the advantage in engines with faster burning combustion events, as well as charge cooling.
Richard, I have a question about the horsepower of this 6.0. It seems pretty low compared to a lot of the other 6.0 stuff I’ve seen you put out with H/C/I upgrades. It seems more comparable to the 5.7 H/C/I ... any thoughts on why it seemed to be quite a bit lower?
CAN YOU SHOW ME WHICH 6.0l HCI TEST THAT MADE MORE THAN THIS WITH A STOCK BOTTOM END? MAYBE A 6.0L LS2 WITH SLIGHTLY MORE COMPRESSION? BUT THIS IS WHAT THEY DO
Yes sir, the 6.0 factory head shoot out. Made 576 hp, now that was with a FAST intake and I know they make much more power than the Dorman intakes and I also realize that you used different cams but specs were not that far off. So basically it’s about a 55 horsepower difference from what could see. I love your videos bro, very informative and I actually went and bought a FAST 102 with 102 throttle body because of the intake test video where you tested like 20 manifolds and I did notice a big difference with full bolt-ons LS6... AFR 215’s sitting in my garage in the box and probably gonna run that Comp 459 cam. Thanks for all the info and thanks for any reply’s 👍 Oh and Happy New Year!! 🥳🥳
approximately 40% more fuel at the same mixture, but you can run E85 a bit leaner on mild combinations to offset that. More timing can help improve efficiency too vs. pump gas if the motor wants it. My CTS-V returns 12/21 mpg on 91 octane, and 8/15 on E85 running 600 whp/700 whp setup
I can answer this, been running E85 and producing my own E100 for 14 years. The test used to measure octane doesn't work well on ethanol, so the 105 rating isn't indicative of what it can do. its a generalization, a wild ass guess more than an accurate measurement. You aren't going to be running 105 octane race gas with 16:1 static, nor will you run 105 octane race gas with 13:1 static and 20psi, but you can do both with pump E85. Ethanol is a very different fuel with very different properties. It does not like to light on the diesel cycle, eg heat and compression, it wants a spark to light. It also has far more latent heat of vaporization than gasoline does, even race gas. The reason it makes more power is very simple, ethanol has more oxygen in it, its also why you need to add more to get the engine to run right, its not about BTU at all. BTU only measures how long it takes a given fuel to heat one pound of water one degree. Thats it, nothing about how much power it makes, resistance to detonation/knock, intake charge cooling, ease of vaporization, its only about heating a pound of water. the more fuel you throw at it, the more power its going to make. Leaning it out on ethanol does not make more power, gasoline does that. Running 7.5:1 AFR will get you best power on E85, and roughly 9:1-8:1 AFR will get you good power and best mileage. Ethanol does not act like gasoline, its very different. Oxygenated race gas can equal ethanol for power, because it has more oxygen in it. It does not have the vaporization properties though, and its considerably more expensive to run oxygenated race gas. So no torco and 93 isn't going to come remotely close in resistance to ping/knock or power. Its just not happening. If you want to mix E85 with your 93, that works much better, and most domestic EFI systems can handle 40%-50% ethanol without a problem, and carbs can do 30% without major modifications, just jetting, power valves, etc. No drilling orifices at 30%. You can measure it with a flex sensor, easy to wire up even with a carb, so you know you have the right amount in it as you splash mix it.
@@timweb1510 It would be a good idea to get a standalone wideband O2 sensor if you want to start tuning with ethanol, carb or EFI I run the Innovate LM2 with the low end of the rage going to 7:1. If you are pushing it with boost, you will want to know exactly where its running. Scott Clark is the go to guy for turbo tuning on ethanol, he can be a bit of a dick though.. fair warning. Ok guy otherwise, and he knows whats up making power and getting it to live with stupid boost. He tuned Poteet's streamliner and other high profile rides. He will be surprised to hear Thumper promoting him.. lol
I know you make most of your dyno turbo kits with the stock manifolds but I was wondering if you thought and or had tested if using some of the shorty headers would make any difference
I live in the upper peninsula of Michigan, it was 8F two days ago(strangely warm right now I don't mind at all), and we get 200-300 inches of snow every year. Lake effect from the biggest lake is impressive. I have run it in winter, in my beater 98 Gran Prix. It cranks a couple seconds longer, but runs good. Takes a bit longer to heat up because ethanol runs a lot colder, but with a good thermostat you can get enough heat out of it to not freeze to death. With a carb its a bit more tricky when its below 20F. My method is pump the gas a few times, and let it vaporize for about 30-40 seconds, then start cranking. If it fires and you can keep it running, let it warm up for a minute or two. If not, pump the throttle, wait 30-40 seconds and try again. Its a lot easier with more compression and a hot spark like an MSD 6AL. None of my carbs have chokes on them anymore, because I drive EFI newer crap all winter. Why rust out something I care about? Now that I have to drive two hours south to fill 55 gallon drums with E85, I only run it in summer. When I get my production high enough I will run it in everything all year, but the GTOs and other muscle cars I drive in summer get parked as soon as the salt goes out on the roads.
@@SweatyFatGuy yeah I live in north east wyoming I just wonder how it would do in say up to 30 or 40 below. I'd run fuel injection not carb. The other issue would be how it sponge water out of the air.
@@rossbrimmer5895 Anything below 20F you can start having start issues in some cars depending upon how much the injector spray wets the ports/manifold. I certainly would have some concerns about sub-zero temps. With modern sealed fuel systems absorbing water really isn't an issue. But don't leave it in your boat or lawnmower! ;) Don't forget too that while gasoline starts dropping water out of suspension at just a few tenths of a percent, E85 can hold several percent water in suspension with no real issue.
It's not a "true" LS. I believe the 4.8 RPO code is LR4. The true LS designated engines are in cars and have aluminum blocks. The 4.8/5.3/6.0 truck engines are iron blocks (some exceptions) but otherwise are very similar. Most parts from either will bolt on as long as you have the intake and head port combo right. They are so similar that you will get people that blow up the engine in a Camaro or Corvette and replace it with a truck engine. All of the accessories, exhaust manifolds, intake, etc bolt right on.
Thank you and my motor is 706 heads.but still is it just an intake. I have an aluminum block I've checked.i guess I need to look up the block. Happy New Year to all.
I think because you all optimise the timing and afr when running na, you didn't find much hp. There would be hp if you ran the 91 at factory timing vs e85 at happy timing. I am assuming of course haha
@@richardholdener1727 thanks i dropped off my rotating assembly yesterday. Not gonna gamble on killing a brand new rotating assembly over a trying to save money.
@@richardholdener1727 you are right. I just got a shop to balance it and he said the bob weights was off by alomost 200 gramson my bob weights. Thank you so much
At the same volume, yes. Its octane and evaporative cooling effect make it ideal for very high compression or forced induction. But, you have to supply larger volumes of it compared to gas.
@@maxie9506 the type of car is irrelevant, the combustion process is not based on the badge. Adding an octane booster to 93 would help, but its unlikely to boost it enough to compete with e85 as it is 108 octane.
I'm in northern Michigan and I have to drive two hours south to Wisconsin to fill 55 gallon drums. I'd do 50 miles no problem. I am building more production so I can make more of my own though, and it will be denatured E100, no gasoline added to it. Did you know you can make ethanol from Kudzu? If you live in an apartment or suburbs its probably not going to be possible for you unless you just want some highly illegal shine. You for sure know where to find some Kudzu...
@@SweatyFatGuy you can make it from anything containing sugar. Ethanol is extremely hydroscopic so you can't actually achieve 100% ethanol unless your producing it in a world class lab. On a side note if your running homemade ethenol fuel on the road dont forget to pay the fuel taxes on it, people do get pinched for it on occasion. Now I'm not saying I wouldn't fudge the numbers a bit, its just that if you pay zero then its a easy case for the tax man, if you pay some then they have to actually prove you didn't pay enough.
it does. Packaging is the hard part though. I've been working on something like that, but with how easy it is to make a FiTech of Sniper work drilling holes for injectors is a lot more involved. Another thing you can do with ethanol and EFI is heat the fuel in the lines, you need the heater after the return regulator so you aren't vaporizing the stuff in the tank (can go boom easy) but at 60psi in the lines it will not vaporize at 200F fuel temp. Some of the gasoline in E85 might boil and turn into vapor, it works better with straight ethanol. Why that is a thing is simple. The intake manifold is a relative vacuum, so the boiling points are lower for liquids (generally) higher pressure raises the boiling point, lower pressure lowers it. So you take a 200F fuel under 60psi, and now put it in an engine pulling 15 inches of vacuum, that is a few atmospheres difference there, so it vaporizes instantly as it hits the vacuum. It will still pull the heat from the intake charge despite having a 200F temp just before. Now you have a vapor fueled engine, and vapor has a much greater surface area than atomized fuel. Think fog vs rain. The combustion event is faster and more complete with a vaporized fuel, large drops have less surface area and take longer to burn, thats also a big part of why so much of the energy in gasoline goes to waste heat. You can do that with gasoline, Smokey Yunick did it in the 80s with a Fiero, but he needed ceramic pistons and other high end parts due to the heat required to fully vaporize gasoline, its like 450F. The reason for that is simple, some of the components of gasoline have boiling points around 450F, and some are around 80F, so you have to vaporize everything. Then you have the spark knock thing raising its head because gasoline likes to light on its own with just heat and compression. Ethanol will do the same thing at 200F, well within the operating temperature of your average engine. The boiling point of ethanol is 173F at sea level. Its one compound, not several, so its much easier to utilize in this way. You get all the power gains, and you do it on less fuel. I plan to do that with the FiTech on my 65 GTO next summer. I really want to put that type of 455 in a more aerodynamic car though, have a 71 Formula in the works for that. The longer the time the fuel has to vaporize, the better the cooling effect of the intake charge and the power will be, with the added bonus of using less fuel to make that power, on ethanol. Injectors farther up would be beneficial.
I vote Mr Holdener as man of the year!
a 6.0 motor built to maximize pump gas compared to a 6.0 motor built to maximize E85 ..thanks for all your hard work
Hey man I really appreciate all the content you put out, which is a hell of a lot. my only problem is I can't always watch it everyday and get overwhelmed trying to sort out your vids and what series they are part of etc. I guess it's my own personal problem though lol. Please keep supplying the world with hard facts and data as well as your valued opinion please. Thank you.
Go to his page and hit playlist it’s all organized I hope this helps out he’s got a lot of good content
I've seen less knock sensor activity on my boosted Coyote at 15-17psi on E85, compared to running 7-8 psi on 91, both fuels using dedicated optimized tuning. I hope E85 never disappears from the pump. Great video!!
THNX-GOOD INFO
Richard whats the chances of doing a vid demonstrating how you build a timing map? I understand every engine wants different things but it will give us guys playing at home an idea of how to do it.
Love your work as always! 👍🏻
I agree. I'd love to see a full timing map build, especially on a turbo LS!!
Trust me, you don't want his timing maps. His timing maps are for max effort on the dyno with good fuel, 120-130 degree coolant temps, perfect ventilation, no underhood heat to worry about, no knock sensors. In real life where lugging exists from being hooked up to an actual vehicle drivetrain there are spots in the powerband that will not tolerate nearly as much timing. Plus, the most important area is down in the 1500-2500 part throttle range, something that doesn't even get touched on a dyno.
That Holley setup is completely different than a factory ECU. He also doesn't use knock detection.
My understanding is the coyote engines run a fairly high static compression
That would help with the gains.
I think they've got like 12:1+ SCR.
Gen 1 yote is 11:1 I think
And with variable valve timing the CR can be somewhat modified by bleeding a little off if need be.
Just what I’ve been looking for!!
ua-cam.com/video/j9vWVz3Qoz0/v-deo.html
On paper, Ethanol is worth 4% more by chemical energy, BUT it needs the right compression ratio.
I computed it out using ledenfrost models about 4 years ago.
Fail E85 : 10.7:1. Doesn't have enough compression to make the fuel activate all the way, but it can work.
Factory E85 : 11.8:1, sub 42 degrees of intake valve event. This puts knock potential at TDC, 1.0 Lambda. Easy to tune. 7% gain
Street/strip E85 : 12.2:1, . Again, less than 42 degrees of ABDC IVC. This puts the knock point at 26 degrees. Needs sub 1 lambda all the time. 7.6% gain.
Strip: 13.4 :1 Add 1 point of compression for every 15 degrees after 50 degrees ABDC. If you make it here, you already know this.
If you are not picking up power on E85 vs pump gas, you are not running it rich enough. You do not lean it out to make more power on ethanol like you do with gasoline, throw fuel at it instead. Best power on E85 is around 7.5:1. best mileage with good power is around 8:1 to 9:1 AFR. Timing also plays a part too, as does head/chamber design. As I explained in my other post on this video, the reason ethanol makes more power is it has more oxygen in it. Adding more fuel adds more oxygen, and it compounds as you add more. Oxygenated race gas will keep up power wise because it has more oxygen in it, but it is hideously expensive and E85 around here is under $2 a gallon.
Even an 8:1 engine will puck up power if you get it enough ethanol. It might only be 8-20hp, but its less money and still more power. Low compression will result in lower mileage, but around 12:1 compression NA you will see the same mileage as on gasoline, and ethanol will pick up mileage along with power above 13:1. Lots more power, and using even less fuel.. still more win. From High Performance Pontiac magazine before they were bought by the owners of HRM. www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-1109-testing-different-fuel/
it also cools the intake charge, but that is very limited in a port fuel system, works a lot better with a carb where the fuel has more time to vaporize and pull heat out of the intake tract. You will see more power the farther up the intake tract you introduce the fuel, also more cooling because it has more time, and if you run the fuel hot enough in the EFI lines you can make power AND increase mileage. the turbo is heating the intake air, ethanol cools it even with port fuel injector location. you get a little bit with direct fuel injection, but that goes completely against how ethanol works, so you will probably use a lot more ethanol in a DI engine.
It DOES NOT eat your fuel system or engine gaskets, it will however clean all the varnish out of your fuel system and clog the pump, filter, and injectors. Additives are what cause the corrosion issues, not the ethanol. DO NOT ADD ANYTHING TO YOUR FUEL. Its bad enough when the oil companies do it. You know Jeff Smith as the tech editor of HRM and also for Summit Racing. Here is his article about corrosion on ethanol.
www.onallcylinders.com/2018/05/25/ask-away-jeff-smith-e85-pump-gas-additives-not-ethanol-cause-corrosion/
I've been running ethanol both mixed like E30-E98 and E100 that I make from tree sap, converting and tuning carbs like Holley, Demon, and my beloved Qjets. I am the go to info source for E85 Qjets. Look into it and you will find the info I have provided with m 455 Pontiac powered GTOs and Firebirds. I build my engines with as much compression as I can, my daily driver 65 GTO has an iron head 455 with 11.5:1 and closed chamber heads, it likes 42 degrees total advance, the 67 vintage 400 heads don't have a good chamber shape to go with the large quench areas. In the 90s those same heads wanted 52 degrees total on 100 octane VP or Sunoco race gas.
My tuning and mileage testing mule is a 13:1 455 with open chamber 69 RA III heads that have been ported to flow 70cfm more than stock. They do not have the center crossover filled so the intake can get warm, which helps with vaporization. It makes tire shredding torque, well over 600ftlbs from what I can tell based on its ease in moving a 4100lb 70 GTO, and gets 20mpg with a Qjet, 700R4, and 3.42 gears. Mid 11s is where both of them run, and the 65 is a lot lighter than the 70, like 700lbs.
It costs me 10 to 40 cents to make a gallon from tree sap or cattails, respectively. it also requires about a weeks worth of work to make enough for the year, mostly cleaning as the yeast do the heavy lifting for me. You need a good amount of space to produce ethanol, I have lots of trees with 3% to 5% sugar in the sap, (around 300 sugar maples) no need to cut them down, just tap it like maple syrup. Syrup is far more valuable if you want to sell it though, I drive my cars more than I eat pancakes or waffles. If you want to know how it all works, just ask me. Its very simple, but has legal requirements. I will be making some videos about all of this in the near future.
I use an Innovate wideband in my header collectors to measure the AFR, I do not run it on the gas scale, I want it to read what its actually doing, because the mix might be different from spring to summer, and my home brew tunes a bit different with no gasoline added to it.. I have alternative methods of denaturing the vodka. Lambda measures stoich, so I don't use that either, because best power and best mileage are a good distance apart in tuning. I don't have an engine or chassis dyno, so my measurements are all ET/MPH based. I am not the only one testing either, a group of us compare our tunes and a couple friends do Holley/Demon conversions for people.
You can try to run ethanol like you do gasoline, but I will make more power and use less fuel than you do. I put Richard in touch with Mark Sullens, but Richard didn't want our nearly two decades of tuning/racing information. Its ok though.
Saying that ethanol does not eat you fuel system is over simplistic and therfore incorrect. In a 2020 vehicle that would be a correct statement, in a older vehicle with natural rubber lines, fuel tanks containing lead, and cork gaskets the ethanol absolutely will cause sever deterioration and be problematic.
And you will never get more fuel milage out of e85 then regular gas if thats what you are trying to claim, it has less BTUs per gallon therefore will ALWAYS consume more fuel per mile traveled.
I'm pretty sure when Richard was quoting AFR's he was expressing the ethanol mixture in petrol equivalent. It would have been better to say lambda. There is no way he was actually running 12.8:1 on ethanol at full load, because it would probably miss and pop and make no power. In reality, his mixture gauge was telling him both vehicles were running a lambda of 0.87. He just didn't switch it over to ethanol for the AFR conversion when he switched fuels. We usually do the same thing with customers because most aren't equipped (or inclined) to try and understand the difference (the looks on their faces if you tell them the actual mixture you run with methanol is hilarious).
Never had q16 compare to good pump e85 and it took roughly 2-3 more in timing. Then ignite made the same difference on the same e85 tune over e85 as e85 did over q16.
@@JoshCP527 I haven't done much comparison with Q16, but the Ignite stuff does work. Can only assume that the gasoline they mix in has a lot less volatility at high cylinder pressure (and it has a little more ethanol too). Picked up almost 40 hp on a 1000 whp LT4 switching from pump E85 to Ignite.
If an NA gasoline engine is set up such that you can give it all the timing it will take without detonation, I can see where the Ethanol wouldn't change anything. If the NA gas motor is finicky and detonates with timing that would give it more power, you back off the timing to let the motor live. In that case I can see how the extra detonation resistance of E85 would allow more timing and therefore better numbers. Things like chamber shape, piston speed, overlap, charge density, intake charge temp, reversion, and head temp all affect this. But I am well aware that you already know all of this and more. Interesting video. In Harleys with high static CR and in Harleys with boost, E85 works better as the motor runs cooler all else being equal. That winds up yielding better numbers largely due to allowing more timing.
The NA compression is optimized for pump premium. Try adding another point or two, I'm sure the e85 would shine.
or jack that water temp up to 190, something a normal engine will see, instead of these unrealistic "happy number producing" 120-130 degree temps
@@ttank94 If I remember correctly, E85 actually liked more higher temperature.
It's best to run on E85 around 170 to 190 temp.
Produces less power if ran cold, like 120-130 temp.
But yea, to have the most benefit of E85 you should use a higher compression ratio, depenging of the combustion chamber design.
With a 13:1 compression motor, the power increase you'd see with E vs pump gas is a 100% increase because nobody in the right mind would even think about going WOT with that much compression on pump gas.
Jokes aside, you don't need race gas/E for a point or 2 more than 9:1, just not high enough. The combustion chamber characteristics of the LS are efficient enough that the max "safe" compression ratio for pump gas (N/A) IMO is between 11.5-12:1, ask me how I know (N/A 6.0, 11.5:1 comp 620hp on pump gas in my chevelle). You don't need race gas or E85 for an LS with 11:1. Now on the other hand, with a small block chevy/ford/mopar or big block chevy/ford/mopar, I would start to look at running E or race gas in stuff over 11:1.
When going higher compression ratio, the difference between pump gas and E85 gets better (for E85).
E85 allows to run ridiculous amount of compression, e.g 13:1 dynamic** compression ratio w/o any problems if the cylinder head has a modern combustion chamber.
How much static compression ratio depends a lot how much intake/exhaust cam duration you have, and cam timing.. it could be 14-16:1 to have 13:1 dynamic compression ratio.
Methanol is even better. But there are limits, when more comp is not better - combustion chamber efficiency and flame travel are more important.
Ridiculous compression ratio with efficient combustion chamber and alcohol fuel means a lot of torque -> power, if the engine can breath when the rpm climbs.
@@juhonmoottoripaja2443 Completely agree. IMO E85 is a MUCH better option than almost any given race gas because it offers the same advantages over pump gas, and costs 1/10th of most race gas, only downside is the legal limit for being labeled "E85" spans from 55%-90% ethanol so a composition test should be done.
Bucket list project of mine is to build my blown up 8.1 big block chevy for 800 or 900hp N/A and HUGE compression. Definitely using some E. Smells good too
Swapping over to LS this year and I was really having trouble deciding 6.0 vs 6.2 until i saw this video, with so power potential and the difference in price im going with the 6.0, thanks for another great video Richard thumbs up
Great to hear!
E85 makes like 30-40 more hp NA with the LT engine 👍
Direct injection
DAYUM
Swapping over to E85 and tuning for it on a hellcat is worth over 70whp.
Any proof on the NA LT making more power? Just want to see actually it but i assume the direct injection helps it
@@niknasstie www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=468070
The car does have a rotofab cai but on a stock 6th gen camaro that is only about 5-8 hp gain and yes it has a lot to do with direct injection
Yeppers... that should get us out of 2020. Let’s just hope 2021 doesn’t smile at 2020 ans say hold my beer..
IKR
2021 already off and running with 2020 holding said beer. also, the prices of fuel in the video will not age well.
I’ve been waiting for this comparison ! Good way to end the year! #2021
R.H. ………...I am an old Ford guy and the Ls is enlighting a lot of Ford in it ,head bolts 10 ,symmetrical ports etc. Always thumbs up !!!!!!!!
There's nothing ford about it....or it would be as turdy as a windsor.
@303StreetMachines no it's not at all. If it were it would be as big of a turd as a 351. The old sbc had the beat down all over furd smallblocks. Why would they go backwards?
On my 2015 Chevy Cruze with a flex sensor installed I like to run about a 30 to 35% alcohol mix. It really runs good at that amount. Way better than 93 octane with 10% ethanol. It also is letting the computer command about 2psi more boost that way.
Years ago E85 was so cheap, U buy a control box and mix it urself, but the stupid government saw the potential for profit and tax ethanol portion very high. A few years ago one servo franchise started selling E85 on. Around 20 cents cheaper than unleaded. Now 30cents dearer. Good on U Australia
I would LOVE to see you do a e85 nitrous test. Mark Sullens who builds e85 carbs claims you don't have to pull any timing with nitrous when e85 is the main fuel and nitrous fuel. I believe him but I would love to see a test proving it to the disbelievers and also to see how much more power it's worth with the same jet!!
You didn't see much gain na because all these truck motors are low compression. Couple that with a cam and you'll lower the dcr more and make e85 nearly useless on a combo like that.
You say that E-85 is less expensive, and per gallon it is, but you have to use almost twice as much of it compared to gasoline. So to verify that if that statement is true it would be interesting to see the duty cycle comparison at the same fuel pressure and work out the comparative volumes used then figure out the cost difference between fuels.
You don't use twice as much. Interestingly, here in California, E85 is priced to provide a near equivalent cost per mile as 91 octane gasoline. It's close to a wash for a well tuned vehicle. But considering that you're getting the performance of $10-$15/gal race gas, it feels like a steal if your gas tank is big enough to avoid refueling every other day.
@@ChurchAutoTest - I was thinking of methanol using nearly 2x and I was assuming this wasn't too far off, I suppose I was incorrect. On another note, I really dislike (read hate) this state of CA. What city are you in? I'm in Fresno until I can escape.
@@rudyrayaaw5138 I'm in Los Angeles, but I have a biz in Texas now and am opening one in AZ soon. California is a dead state walking, just doesn't know it yet.
@@lapin46 correct, although it's slightly more since we're looking at fuel _mass_ and E85 density is slightly different than gas. Fortunately we can generally run it a touch leaner.
@@lapin46 True, true. Although if you're interested, you can look at freely available software like HP Tuners to see how your factory ECU is estimating fuel mass flow rate in its calculations, even without a flow meter. It becomes a little easier to grasp the AFR calc when you do it that way.
The LY6, being a truck engine originally, has 9.7 or so compression. It runs on 87 octane with a factory truck cam. Even with the TFS heads, assuming a 65cc chamber, the compression is just over 10:1. That should not stress the pump gas octane. I’m wondering what would happen to the NA test if you put flat top, or even a small domed, piston in this combo and retest. I’m thinking 11 or 11.5 to 1, maybe more. Reducing the combination of chamber, piston, and head gasket by 10-12cc would get you in that range. I’d think timing sensitivity would make that combo like E85 a lot, but only the dyno really knows! Can you test this for us, Richard? Love this channel!
HIGHER COMPRESSION WILL HELP WITH E85
I would also like to see the n/a e85 compared on a higher compression engine, I think that's where the big benefit is. Something 11:5.1 or better, e85 could really shin there, the pp gas would have to be run on lower timing to keep from knocking and the e85 would be able to take advantage where the pump gas couldn't. That would be cool too.
Who doesn’t love a good ls boost video!
Unfortunately, i live in 1 of those states it's damn near impossible to find e85, CT. Nearest to me to buy it is 45-50miles away, n even trying to get 104 here is something like 8.50 a gal here, its ridiculous. Love ur vid's dude.
You need more compression as many have already said. If an engine will already make peak power before reaching detonation then changing fuel ain’t gonna do jack. You need compression or more heat in the motor so the alcohol can show it’s gains NA
1.59 cents for a gallon of E85 in the great state of North Dakota
We in komifornia are envious!
I hate you!!!
😆
We would welcome you all with open arms
@@jodypierson3137 I love the weather here but hate the politics...
@@timdontwannasay5889 I totally understand
If the engine don't need more octane, it ent going to thank you for it.
🇬🇧 gets 98 Ron. From the pump, we had a 1600cc sohc peugeot xu unit (205 gti) on 45mm Webber carbs and a reasonable race cam from piper cams here in the UK giving 183 bhp @ 8800 rpm and 126lbs/ft of torque at 5700-6300 rpm using 11.5:1 cr and changing to 101 Ron octane "race fuel" made no measurable (chassis dyno) differance either. We do not get E85.
We get 93 (R+M)/2 here which is the same as your 98 Ron. Not all places get 93 in the US for some reason, its all state based.
Thankyou! This answered many of my questions about E85.
Part of our winter upgrade plans is a bigger pump, bigger injectors to make the change to E85, Plus a TBSS intake to go from 492 wheel hp to 600+ wheel hp. Why 600 wheel hp? Because #burnoutsandicecream
don't want it to melt!
That’s right!! Only thing melting in this truck is the tires!!
Good Video Rich
But there's a downside to this fuel though as I tell customer's when I'm gonna tune their car's or truck's it's not always E85 at the pump it varies octane on the time of the year as well. Plus the other bad things are you need to upgrade the entire fuel systems starting with compatible lines resistant to ethanol and filters too. The injectors needed have to be doubled in capacity plus must be cleaned every few months due to getting gunked up with crap and must be ran with regular gas to keep them lubricated every couple of tanks to lube up the system internally. So in the end cost of the total conversion to E85 plus the maintenance plus the tuning must be redone for E85 as well. It adds up.. So YOU gotta think about all.
Anything over e50-e60 you won’t see a huge gain. Also with a flex sensor running pump won’t be a issue that’s simple. It’s always better to overbuild a fuel system from the start.
Not exactly Sonic. First, you only need about 40% more fuel capacity at the same power/boost level. Second, any car made since about 2000 has to have lines and parts that can handle ethanol in gasoline since it's been mandated in most of the country since then. As reese mentioned, most guys running ethanol run flex fuel these days with a proper ethanol sensor to compensate for varying mixes. Even cars that don't have flex available from the factory can buy injector intercept kits now that modify injector duty cycle for ethanol content (use these on older dodges that don't have flex in the ECU operating system). I do tell my customers to run a tank of regular gasoline basically whenever they do their oil change to keep the injectors clean. But I have done 10,000 miles on my CTSV between tanks of 91 with no issues. I think its more a case of poor tank quality/maintenance at the gas station, or crap already in your tank being dislodged by E85.
For older vehicles (80s and earlier to be sure), there are more issues to be considered, no argument there. But for anyone running more modern stuff, its a pretty painless conversion outside of the cost of bigger injectors/pump and retuning.
Without the cylinder pressure the octane becomes a hindrance. You need to be able to fully burn your fuel.
My thoughts only......
Na gains would be from lower temps and greatly advanced timing do to a slower burn rate
By pressure, do you mean compression? Serious question.
Matches what we see on the chassis dyno. Something to think about....
Theoretically (I know, bad word) E85 should produce 5-6% more power than gasoline even if you don't run more timing. There is less energy in a gallon of E85 than gas, but you inject so much extra fuel that the energy liberated is 5-6% more. So why don't we see that on lower compression engines like the off-the-shelf LS stuff? I suspect it has something to do with the amount of fuel we're injecting, and how much air we're displacing. Perhaps also that we're quenching the combustion process somewhat, just like when we inject a ton of meth on an NA engine.
This would also explain why LT engines see vastly larger gains with E85. They only pick up 7-8% more power naturally aspirated on E85, but torque gains can easily exceed 10% near peak VE. Why? They are higher compression, but the gains are too large to be explained by that. I suspect that the ability to inject a lot of the fuel after the intake valve has closed is a big part of it.
When I'm tuning flex fuel on an LS equipped Tahoe or Silverado, one trick I find that helps me get a touch more output is to run a fair bit leaner on E85. You won't knock running 13.5 (that's a gas equivalent AFR, let's just say lambda of 0.92-0.93), but it seems to help just a bit. As for turbo engines, looks like it gained about 6% more power which is right on target for energy content changes from race gas to ethanol. Maybe the higher intake temps and increased mixture motion offsets any potential quenching/displacement issues.
With higher compression 10:1 + the e85 would make more na pwr over 91, I'm only talking 10-15 hp over 91 on a 10:1 compression,
I've always heard rumors that E85 can build boost faster because the chemical reaction of combusting E85 produces a greater volume of exhaust. Have you ever seen evidence of such a thing?
And I think most LS guys would shy away from 30 degrees of timing NA on pump gas, so that might be where some people have found gains in E85--by having enough stomach to put the timing in under their E85 safety blanket
I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT TESTED
Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the difference in power come from the specific gravity? I think octane VS. specific gravity explaining fuel would be a good video for noobs like me.
The Ethanol molecule is smaller and less dense than Octane, however it also has lower caloric content, but more molecules can fit in a given space than Octane, so there's an overall net gain in caloric content at the cost of higher fuel consumption. Ethanol, being an alcohol, also will cool the air, and Ethanol fuel has around like 115 octane rating.
@@tommylyeah that’s kind of my point. The octane of the the two fuels is going to be very close. So with that in mind, they are going to differ in specific gravity creating better atomization due to being less dense, right?
@@ChadListentome - That makes sense ta me.
You would make more power NA if you could increase the compression ratio. Form what I am seeing 13.1 on a sbc is pretty natural when it is corn fed :-)
You are burning at least 20% more fuel with the e85, I would think that the lower charge temp is helping increase power. I wonder if using ice water in intercooler would change the results to bring race fuel and e85 closer in the power?
ICE WATER ADDS POWER TO BOTH
@@richardholdener1727 Which fuel has more energy potential?
NA applications that have really hot intake temperatures benefit more from E 85 such as Honda’s look how much power they get from turbo yet supercharged they don’t make as much on the same boost I believe it’s because of the intake temperatures. I wonder if you could test the intake temps at the manifold for ls and coyote direct injection engine’s get the most benefit since the e 85 shoots at the piston
love the videos
ua-cam.com/video/j9vWVz3Qoz0/v-deo.html
What was the compression ratio of the engine when it ran on e85?
You should test the bmw n54 to its limits . So cheap to get may not be the easiest to find tho
E85 will tolerate more compression NA. Without more compression it leaves power on the table.
I think you need more compression. I don't believe the LS family (especially truck engines) is compression limited so you aren't seeing much difference.
How much boost and timing can I run on my 4.8 twin holset hy35w turbos with 93 octane fuel? Its stock bottom end with ring gap. Truck intake with a cam. Made 416 hp na. Would it be safe to turn it up and make 1000hp on 93 octane if timing is conservative enough??
1000 HP ON 93?
Or maybe 800 ? Just wondering what you think is to much on 93 and what is safe. 👍
Even if you run single digit timing and 30 pounds of boost you're going to produce enough heat to detonate that pump swill.
You could put some race gas in it and pull big dyno bragging numbers but on pump gas they really struggle above 700. And the variability in actual octane at the pump can cost you dearly. Press it hard on substandard fuel and it won't be pretty. One tank of mislabeled or contaminated fuel will spray the rods all over the road.
So I guess I should stick to around 8 lbs . It makes 620 ish on 8 lbs with 21 degrees of timing afr is around 11.9
E85 has 4.5% more energy than gasoline when run at the same lambda. should run *less* timing because it burns faster. something is not right with the engine. btw you want 1-5/8" headers at 500 hp.
E85 responds to boost or compression. A low compression build for boost will not make more power @ NA without boost
On ethanol vs gasoline, yes it will make more power despite having low compression, if you get it enough ethanol. More O2 means more power, and ethanol has more O2 in it, adding more makes more power until you go richer than 7:1 AFR, then it makes the some power but uses more fuel.
You pick up so much more with boost because of how much ethanol cools the intake charge, ethanol has more exhaust gas volume as well, and you can really turn up the boost on it because ethanol doesn't want to light without a spark.
www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-1109-testing-different-fuel/
I'm curious what A/F ratio you're running on the e85 both N/A and turbo. E100 has a lower density than gasoline and stoichiometric is 9:1 so you need to run quite a bit richer with E85.... like 8:1 for peak power. I suspect the cooling effect must be about the same with E85 vs pump gas on the N/A engine, but have a better cooling effect on the turbo engine. It may be interesting to see exhaust gas temperatures in the comparison also.
Just for the fun of it, I tried a little math to calculate theoretical MAF and theoretical power and VE at the peak torque rpm of 5000 on the N/A engine.
6.0L/2 * 5000rpm/60sec/min * 1.184 g/L = 296 g/sec = 39.12 Lb/min MAF @100%VE
multiply by 10 hp/lb/min airflow and I get 391 HP.... using the 450 hp number you had
450 hp/390 hp =.1.15 which is what the VE of the engine would be at 5000 rpm.
I don't know if this is even possible, but the facts cannot lie. It would also be interesting to see some MAF numbers.
WE ADJUSTED THE AF ON THE E85 (AND GAS) TO FIND BEST SAFE POWER
I just watched Brian Tooley talk about the valve timing relationship between intake valve open and the exhaust valve close and he said to ignore the lobe separation angle...do you believe that the LSA is important?
OVER LAP DOES NOT BLOW BOOST OUT -BACK PRESSURE IS HIGHER THAN BOOST PRESSURE
Would like to see the comparison pull with added boost and timing
Try same motor with 11.5/1 then 93 vs e85
Great video, just curious on the difference between pump 91 with water meth and pump E85 timing values.
Done it on my ls turbo. Difficult to street tune plus over fueling is an issue. Have an Aem controller an a eboost 2.
I can't get e85 so pump gas and alcohol and water injection after the intercooler is the way to go here.
same here. Don't really need water injection, but I inject a tiny amount above 9 lbs boost--- just in case.
More compression make a bigger na difference I guess would be the only plus? Get the timing up with more squish?
Its about how much fuel you give it, you can make more power with 8:1 compression and open chamber heads easily.
www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-1109-testing-different-fuel/
I am running closed chamber heads on my Pontiac, they want more advance than the open chamber heads on another 455 of mine. Closed chamber is 11.5:1 static, the open heads have been milled so they make 13:1, the open chambers make more power, but that is probably due to the CNC porting vs hand porting and the compression ratio difference. Those 13:1 capable heads are monsters for iron heads.
we tried more fuel-nope!
@@richardholdener1727 Did you play with timing when you added more fuel?
Off of this topic. When we look at drag racing engines it seems a 540 is about as big of an engine that you typically see with turbos or some kind of supercharger while nitrous motors are approaching 1,000 cubic inches.
Is there a limiting factor, or a rules restriction?
NITROUS MOTORS NEED MORE NA POWER THAN BOOSTED MOTOR TO GET TO THE SAME HP LEVEL
So, boost doesn't need those mountain motors.
We don’t have e85 in the uk, but have pump 99oct.
Your 98 ron is the same as US 93 (R+M)/2, it depends on what part of the country on if it is widely available.
Can you do a turbo V6 4.3 vortec 1000 hp combo ? In 2021 ? Anyone who thinks this is good 👍 just like & comment .!!
I want to see every 4.3 Chev video possible.
I have a 2k S10 Xtreme with a 4.3. Would love to know how much boost it can handle with stock motor. Then again, would dread putting it back to stock every 2 years as I live in CA.
Oof, $2.50/gallon for E85? California strikes again. It is $1.70 in Texas today. About half the pumps have 93 octane regular gas, too.
Do you think the dorman LS6 would be better than the Speedmaster intake for example? Heard some folks weren’t happy with the dorman...
IT DIDN'T DO AS WELL AS THE STOCK LS6 IN MY TEST
I have a c3 corvette Running rear mounted VS racing 7875 Gen 2 Turbo on a 6L engine, If I run E85 how much boost can I run without an intercooler?
Nice comparison
E85 compared with pump plus water /meth would have been a better comparison.. Both are very effective but pump with water/Meth is way less cost factor and easier to set up doesn't need more fuel bigger injection system etc.. and not to mention easier to tune especially for street cars... and access isn't an issue... Tuner School Chanel also proved its effectiveness of running pump with water /meth mix to be close to power levels boosted as E 85 and higher than race fuel and even better if you can run both E85 and water /meth. Just a thought maybe you missed something during your comparison?
WATER METH HAS HUGE DISTRIBUTION ISSUES ON A LONG RUNNER INTAKE
Mr Holdner, do you feel a 9 to 9.5:1 compression on a LSX type engine be safe on 91+ octane with up to 15lb of boost?
What do you think "BALLPARK" max compression could be obtained because i know many supercharger companies even GM have put boost on 11:1 engines, i was just curious to what your take is with a good healthy cam of at (LEAST) 230* @ .050+ high duration cam types..
Because i wish to have a good healthy compression in case the charger may have issues etc, you can still have a really stout N/A only engine with a simple tune swap.
DEPENDS ON TIMING
Interesting project 6.0 SS just can't afford it yet
Can get pretty cheap ebay turbo kit for the trucks. It's pretty simple for the trucks. Injectors and extra stuff make it a little more though
E85 is no longer available here......
Can you run this test with nitrous pump 93/e85
I heard you say you didn't touch the timing tables when you switched over to the e85. Did you have to change anything on the fuel tables?
YES-LOTS MORE FUEL
Thanka for the reply.
Its not octane or fuel limited though that's why same on the na gen 3 hemi.
Happy New Year Richard! Have you seen anyone using 2 stroke oil or castor oil when using E85 to lubricate the valves? I am building a roots blown 540 with the Holley dominator with the injectors on top of the blower to lubricate the rotors and I want to run E85, but I’ve heard people having issues because it doesn’t have any lubricating properties, so I was concerned that it wouldn’t work injecting it into the top of the blower
ILL ASK ON THAT ONE-THEY DO NEED LUBE
What was the duty cycle of the injectors and fuel pump e85 requires double the injector when compared to standard gas setups
THE E85 FUEL FLOW IS NOT DOUBLE GAS
@@richardholdener1727 correction e85 needs 35% more volume for the same pressure
Right on
Does the Coyote take less timing advance to make peak power than this LS?
If the peak power timing is less advanced then the combustion happens faster so E85 must have the advantage in engines with faster burning combustion events, as well as charge cooling.
Our local pump E85 varies anywhere from 45-75%. Have you measured the quality of your fuels?
WE DON'T-IT ALL WORKS
So what was the difference in air fuel between pump gas vs e85 and e85 vs race gas? Did you increase fuel load going to e85?
Richard, I have a question about the horsepower of this 6.0. It seems pretty low compared to a lot of the other 6.0 stuff I’ve seen you put out with H/C/I upgrades. It seems more comparable to the 5.7 H/C/I ... any thoughts on why it seemed to be quite a bit lower?
CAN YOU SHOW ME WHICH 6.0l HCI TEST THAT MADE MORE THAN THIS WITH A STOCK BOTTOM END? MAYBE A 6.0L LS2 WITH SLIGHTLY MORE COMPRESSION? BUT THIS IS WHAT THEY DO
Yes sir, the 6.0 factory head shoot out. Made 576 hp, now that was with a FAST intake and I know they make much more power than the Dorman intakes and I also realize that you used different cams but specs were not that far off. So basically it’s about a 55 horsepower difference from what could see. I love your videos bro, very informative and I actually went and bought a FAST 102 with 102 throttle body because of the intake test video where you tested like 20 manifolds and I did notice a big difference with full bolt-ons LS6... AFR 215’s sitting in my garage in the box and probably gonna run that Comp 459 cam. Thanks for all the info and thanks for any reply’s 👍
Oh and Happy New Year!! 🥳🥳
What is the octane of real e85 like 105 octane? Plus the cooling effect is that what makes more power that rocket 110?
COOLING EFFECT
I wonder how much more power methanol would make
Happy New Year !!!! How much more E85 is used compared the gasoline, 2X ?
approximately 40% more fuel at the same mixture, but you can run E85 a bit leaner on mild combinations to offset that. More timing can help improve efficiency too vs. pump gas if the motor wants it. My CTS-V returns 12/21 mpg on 91 octane, and 8/15 on E85 running 600 whp/700 whp setup
Basic e 85 is around 103-105 on average right? Would 93 and torco be comparable on a street turbo setup? Thanks
I DON'T THINK THE TORCO WOULD BE THE SAME POWER-NOT SURE ON OCTANE
@@richardholdener1727 Your the BEST ever man!!! I’m a HUGE fan of you!!! (:
I can answer this, been running E85 and producing my own E100 for 14 years. The test used to measure octane doesn't work well on ethanol, so the 105 rating isn't indicative of what it can do. its a generalization, a wild ass guess more than an accurate measurement. You aren't going to be running 105 octane race gas with 16:1 static, nor will you run 105 octane race gas with 13:1 static and 20psi, but you can do both with pump E85.
Ethanol is a very different fuel with very different properties. It does not like to light on the diesel cycle, eg heat and compression, it wants a spark to light. It also has far more latent heat of vaporization than gasoline does, even race gas.
The reason it makes more power is very simple, ethanol has more oxygen in it, its also why you need to add more to get the engine to run right, its not about BTU at all. BTU only measures how long it takes a given fuel to heat one pound of water one degree. Thats it, nothing about how much power it makes, resistance to detonation/knock, intake charge cooling, ease of vaporization, its only about heating a pound of water. the more fuel you throw at it, the more power its going to make. Leaning it out on ethanol does not make more power, gasoline does that. Running 7.5:1 AFR will get you best power on E85, and roughly 9:1-8:1 AFR will get you good power and best mileage. Ethanol does not act like gasoline, its very different.
Oxygenated race gas can equal ethanol for power, because it has more oxygen in it. It does not have the vaporization properties though, and its considerably more expensive to run oxygenated race gas.
So no torco and 93 isn't going to come remotely close in resistance to ping/knock or power. Its just not happening. If you want to mix E85 with your 93, that works much better, and most domestic EFI systems can handle 40%-50% ethanol without a problem, and carbs can do 30% without major modifications, just jetting, power valves, etc. No drilling orifices at 30%. You can measure it with a flex sensor, easy to wire up even with a carb, so you know you have the right amount in it as you splash mix it.
@@SweatyFatGuy wow, thanks man
@@timweb1510 It would be a good idea to get a standalone wideband O2 sensor if you want to start tuning with ethanol, carb or EFI I run the Innovate LM2 with the low end of the rage going to 7:1. If you are pushing it with boost, you will want to know exactly where its running.
Scott Clark is the go to guy for turbo tuning on ethanol, he can be a bit of a dick though.. fair warning. Ok guy otherwise, and he knows whats up making power and getting it to live with stupid boost. He tuned Poteet's streamliner and other high profile rides. He will be surprised to hear Thumper promoting him.. lol
👍👍
Its got the good heads I think 706
Would you ever upload the tune files from these runs? I know a lot of them are done with a Holley system right?
THEY WERE DONE WITH HOLLEY-YOU DON'T WANT THESE TUNE FILES
I know you make most of your dyno turbo kits with the stock manifolds but I was wondering if you thought and or had tested if using some of the shorty headers would make any difference
I still dont know about running it in a winter vehicle in the northern part of the country.
I live in the upper peninsula of Michigan, it was 8F two days ago(strangely warm right now I don't mind at all), and we get 200-300 inches of snow every year. Lake effect from the biggest lake is impressive.
I have run it in winter, in my beater 98 Gran Prix. It cranks a couple seconds longer, but runs good. Takes a bit longer to heat up because ethanol runs a lot colder, but with a good thermostat you can get enough heat out of it to not freeze to death.
With a carb its a bit more tricky when its below 20F. My method is pump the gas a few times, and let it vaporize for about 30-40 seconds, then start cranking. If it fires and you can keep it running, let it warm up for a minute or two. If not, pump the throttle, wait 30-40 seconds and try again. Its a lot easier with more compression and a hot spark like an MSD 6AL. None of my carbs have chokes on them anymore, because I drive EFI newer crap all winter. Why rust out something I care about?
Now that I have to drive two hours south to fill 55 gallon drums with E85, I only run it in summer. When I get my production high enough I will run it in everything all year, but the GTOs and other muscle cars I drive in summer get parked as soon as the salt goes out on the roads.
@@SweatyFatGuy yeah I live in north east wyoming I just wonder how it would do in say up to 30 or 40 below. I'd run fuel injection not carb. The other issue would be how it sponge water out of the air.
I have a 1984 bronco im wanting to put two turbos on a 351w.
@@rossbrimmer5895 Anything below 20F you can start having start issues in some cars depending upon how much the injector spray wets the ports/manifold. I certainly would have some concerns about sub-zero temps. With modern sealed fuel systems absorbing water really isn't an issue. But don't leave it in your boat or lawnmower! ;) Don't forget too that while gasoline starts dropping water out of suspension at just a few tenths of a percent, E85 can hold several percent water in suspension with no real issue.
@@ChurchAutoTest well yeah thats the thing here in wyoming we usually get a couple weeks of sub zero Temps thats why I asked the question.
Hey Richard, which particular “race gas” are you running?
ROCKET 114 IN THIS TEST
Richard I need help my 06 Yukon with 4.8 is an ls what?
It's not a "true" LS. I believe the 4.8 RPO code is LR4.
The true LS designated engines are in cars and have aluminum blocks. The 4.8/5.3/6.0 truck engines are iron blocks (some exceptions) but otherwise are very similar. Most parts from either will bolt on as long as you have the intake and head port combo right.
They are so similar that you will get people that blow up the engine in a Camaro or Corvette and replace it with a truck engine. All of the accessories, exhaust manifolds, intake, etc bolt right on.
Thank you and my motor is 706 heads.but still is it just an intake. I have an aluminum block I've checked.i guess I need to look up the block. Happy New Year to all.
Can Richard Holderness be selected as Secretary of Transportation?
BOOST FOR EVERYONE!
I think because you all optimise the timing and afr when running na, you didn't find much hp. There would be hp if you ran the 91 at factory timing vs e85 at happy timing. I am assuming of course haha
NA the limitation was air not octane, more compression is where the e85 would have made the NA happy
I agree. Otherwise it would of made more power haha
What injectors were in E85 with turbo
1500S
Injector placement? To close to the valve to get additional charge cooling.
thats part of it, but mostly he probably had it too lean.
he did not have it too lean-we tried various AF mixtures with each
@@richardholdener1727 Do you ever see any gains that can be attributed mainly to charge cooling?
What happens if u dont balance a engine?
IT WILL SHAKE ITSELF TO DEATH IF IT IS WAY OFF
@@richardholdener1727 thanks i dropped off my rotating assembly yesterday. Not gonna gamble on killing a brand new rotating assembly over a trying to save money.
@@richardholdener1727 you are right. I just got a shop to balance it and he said the bob weights was off by alomost 200 gramson my bob weights. Thank you so much
But e85 is about 30% less efficient than regular gas.
At the same volume, yes. Its octane and evaporative cooling effect make it ideal for very high compression or forced induction. But, you have to supply larger volumes of it compared to gas.
Have you tried E85 vs C85 ?
NO SIR
@@richardholdener1727 I was wondering how much that 4% better all around would actually look on the dyno
Why no knock detector? Is there some advantage to leaving it off?
not using stock ECM. Need to use stock ECM to interpret the vibration signals from the sensor.
I think....
we run a Holley
My e85 Vic needs boost
Would adding something like Boostane to 93 pump gas make any significant difference?
yeah it would make it more prone to knock/ping than E85 on its own.
@@SweatyFatGuy oh damn. Forza sung praises to it but I think that was more for dodge cars
@@maxie9506 the type of car is irrelevant, the combustion process is not based on the badge. Adding an octane booster to 93 would help, but its unlikely to boost it enough to compete with e85 as it is 108 octane.
Just found out how much hp you can loose with too much or even the recommended amount of oil in the pan. Can you do a video on this?
I think Engine Masters made a video like that.
I HAVE
Imagine how much power you could lose if you didn't have enough oil in the pan.
@@richardholdener1727 my apologies. You have quite the catalog and I haven't made my way through all of it yet.
@@turbolq4 That's the question. What is the acceptable or minimum amount of oil needed before damage as opposed to the recommended amount.
Do you ever check your E85 for % water content?
That's what an ethanol sensor actually does
we don't-i just run whatever i get from the pump
I'm in Louisiana and I have to drive 50 miles to get E85
I'm in northern Michigan and I have to drive two hours south to Wisconsin to fill 55 gallon drums. I'd do 50 miles no problem. I am building more production so I can make more of my own though, and it will be denatured E100, no gasoline added to it.
Did you know you can make ethanol from Kudzu? If you live in an apartment or suburbs its probably not going to be possible for you unless you just want some highly illegal shine. You for sure know where to find some Kudzu...
@@SweatyFatGuy you can make it from anything containing sugar. Ethanol is extremely hydroscopic so you can't actually achieve 100% ethanol unless your producing it in a world class lab.
On a side note if your running homemade ethenol fuel on the road dont forget to pay the fuel taxes on it, people do get pinched for it on occasion. Now I'm not saying I wouldn't fudge the numbers a bit, its just that if you pay zero then its a easy case for the tax man, if you pay some then they have to actually prove you didn't pay enough.
I'd like to see injector location testing. I think E85 would shine with more time to cool the charge.
it does. Packaging is the hard part though. I've been working on something like that, but with how easy it is to make a FiTech of Sniper work drilling holes for injectors is a lot more involved.
Another thing you can do with ethanol and EFI is heat the fuel in the lines, you need the heater after the return regulator so you aren't vaporizing the stuff in the tank (can go boom easy) but at 60psi in the lines it will not vaporize at 200F fuel temp. Some of the gasoline in E85 might boil and turn into vapor, it works better with straight ethanol.
Why that is a thing is simple. The intake manifold is a relative vacuum, so the boiling points are lower for liquids (generally) higher pressure raises the boiling point, lower pressure lowers it. So you take a 200F fuel under 60psi, and now put it in an engine pulling 15 inches of vacuum, that is a few atmospheres difference there, so it vaporizes instantly as it hits the vacuum. It will still pull the heat from the intake charge despite having a 200F temp just before.
Now you have a vapor fueled engine, and vapor has a much greater surface area than atomized fuel. Think fog vs rain. The combustion event is faster and more complete with a vaporized fuel, large drops have less surface area and take longer to burn, thats also a big part of why so much of the energy in gasoline goes to waste heat.
You can do that with gasoline, Smokey Yunick did it in the 80s with a Fiero, but he needed ceramic pistons and other high end parts due to the heat required to fully vaporize gasoline, its like 450F. The reason for that is simple, some of the components of gasoline have boiling points around 450F, and some are around 80F, so you have to vaporize everything. Then you have the spark knock thing raising its head because gasoline likes to light on its own with just heat and compression.
Ethanol will do the same thing at 200F, well within the operating temperature of your average engine. The boiling point of ethanol is 173F at sea level. Its one compound, not several, so its much easier to utilize in this way. You get all the power gains, and you do it on less fuel. I plan to do that with the FiTech on my 65 GTO next summer. I really want to put that type of 455 in a more aerodynamic car though, have a 71 Formula in the works for that.
The longer the time the fuel has to vaporize, the better the cooling effect of the intake charge and the power will be, with the added bonus of using less fuel to make that power, on ethanol. Injectors farther up would be beneficial.