Celsus on the Bible 'resurrection' stories and his critique of the crucifixion accounts
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- Опубліковано 7 лип 2024
- Celsus criticizes the Bible resurrection stories as well as the crucifixion accounts. Celsus, a 2nd Century pagan philosopher was a strong opponent of Christianity and wrote a powerful critique of the new religion called Logos Alethes or 'The True Word' which was later banned by Christian Emperors. In his book, Celsus commented on all aspects of Christianity. This video looks at what he wrote of the crucifixion and resurrection narratives.
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Chapters in video
Introduction 00:00
Celsus' key theme 02:15
The Last Supper 05:11
In the garden of Gethsemane 10:49
The crucifixion 15:34
Death and 'resurrection' 24:51
Visiting Hell 34:56
Final Words 36:45
Questions and issues raised in this video include...
Why are the gods of the Old and New Testament starkly different in nature?
Why are the Old Testament miracles far bigger in scale?
Why does Jesus never do grand ‘Old Testament’ style miracles seen by thousands?
Why no contemporary Greek or Roman accounts of Jesus doing miracles?
Why does Jesus disappear after his ‘resurrection’ rather than showing his presence to the general public?
Why Jesus’ declaring Judas would betray him did not change his mind? Why is Thomas doubting Jesus after seeing his ‘miraculous’ deeds?
Why is Judas being used to engineer the crucifixion?
Why is a ‘divine’ Jesus praying to avoid the crucifixion?
Why is a ‘divine’ Jesus failing to show a miracle at the best possible dramatic time?
Why is a ‘divine’ Jesus showing less spirit than the two criminals by dying first
Why did blood and water pour out of a purely mortal body?
Death is not a state of limbo but an irreversible end of life
Why a ‘resurrected’ Jesus fails to show himself to Pontius Pilate?
Why does Jesus need to convert to the dead?
Origen the third century Christan thinker's responses in his book 'Contra Celsum' are also included
Too bad Celsius didn’t get the opportunity to talk about Islam
He probably would have been a Muslim given the rationality of the concept of God and the purpose of human existence given in the Quran. There is no divine human being, crucified god, and no resurrection of this said god to be a salvific event.
Lmao. Let’s be thankful he wasn’t otherwise things may have been even more violent
@@BenM61He most certainly would not have been a Mohammedan, me old chum. The same theological issues are present in Islam, for the most part, since it’s still mired in Abrahamic-style ontology.
Im glad you just accepted there was no such a thing as "islam" in the ancient times.
@@BenM61 hahahaha not at all. Celsus would have laughed at the absurdities of islam and it's violent behavior.
I’ll never understand they love a human sacrifice that they use as argument against pagans.
Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness Hebrews 9:22.
This critique adds a new meaning to what Paul said in I Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." However, the fact that Christianity is still thriving after two thousand years is a testament to the next verse. "For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"
Another instalment of my favourite series! It does seem that logic disappeared with the ascent of Christianity. Poor Celsus was arguing with the deaf. When we think that Origene's ridiculous rebuttals represented the best Christians had to throw at pagan wisdom, history takes on a sinister light.
Thx Sarah. I do feel Origen has to do plenty of mental gymnastics in order to defend Jesus as divine. Some of his defences and arguments are pretty makeshift and poor.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Yes, and what I find irritating is that Origen typically evades Celsus' arguments or uses straw arguments in return.
Who knows .., maybe celsus could even explain how the shroud of Turin was created
@@sarahahmed113sounds like the conversations one has with flat earthers and COVID denialists... :/
@@usergiodmsilva1983PT Have you taken your booster yet? You absolutely must.
What gets me is that it seems to have taken 60 years for Christians to come up with a rebuttals to Celsus (240 CE vs 180 CE) and this is the best they could come up with?
In fact there was very few Christian rebuttals of Greek philosophies in general Neoplatonism, Epicureanism etc. From what I can see Christian church father simply referred to and largely dismissed Hellenic beliefs as 'idol worship' without any deeper dissection.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Thanks. And I wonder why they simply dismissed all Greco-Roman religion and philosophy as "idol worship". Could it be they did not have the brainpower to effectively refute them? They kept saying it was demons that brought it all into existence but the Romans and the Greeks would have been convinced that demons were part of the Christians' superstitions.
i suggest you to look into stoicism and greek philosophy. They themselves knew there was a huge flaw to their understanding when it came to mortality and the end of a man's life. The resurrection of Jesus Christ filled up that massive gap the greek philosophers and stoics couldn't figured out. How does man live forever? m@@edwardmiessner6502
@@edwardmiessner6502 Most of the early Christian leaders were not scholars. They were taken from all walks of life and didn't have the ability to debate their point of view. Not to mention, they weren't the martyrs they pretended to be and would have preferred to live by hiding in the shadows than directly challenging Roman beliefs.
It’s not like Celsus lived in a time of social media, where he’d have posted his thoughts, and he’d immediately have had Likes and Retweets and responses. Plus, sometimes it takes time to respond to someone.
Here’s a response: Jesus was divine, and His message - indeed He Himself - was Love. Love > Logic.
The thing is, it's obvious reading Against Celsus is that Celsus is clearly smarter than Origen and Origen has a hard time keeping up.
Celsus is NOT smarter than Origen. It’s simply that even the best of the best logician cannot win. Using logic to attempt to defend Christianity is a losing proposition. If even Aristotle or Chrysippus who are two best of the very best logicians were Christians they couldn’t win this debate.
@@PaultheSheik Logic certainly wins over Christianity. It shows it for the smoke and mirrors and magic show that it is.
This makes me want to find whatever has been reconstructed of Celsus and read it. Really interesting. Not that I have the exact same issues as he did, but it's nice someone was noticing some of the absurdities way back nearer the start of it.
I didn't realize you had posted. Will have to remember to check back periodically.
Cheers mate. Worth a read definitely. Important to remember Origen only decided to tackle the issues he wished to or had answers to. There may have been much more material unfortunately he didnt mention. Really we have no clue as to the size of Celsus' work.
Thank you for the series.
You bet!
Thank you for your usual excellent content.
My pleasure!
This really does feel like a Facebook debate, reasonable Celsus vs FatherforChrist-Origen3. Same tactic, any criticism heard or unheard is evil, and therefor paint all opponents as devil workers when cornered.
Thx for watching! Origen does have a habit of strawmanning Celsus' arguments as well I think.
It's a great tragedy that Celsus' full work has been lost. It must have been quite powerful, if the Christian authorities felt that they needed to go to such lengths to destroy it. Who knows, maybe one day a copy will be dug up somewhere, as happened with the Dead Sea scrolls, the Herculaneum library, and the Nag Hammadi library.
That would be one of the great finds of the modern era! We can hope.
I've seen different places that people claim Celsus to be the originator of the idea that the resurrection appearances were merely visions, but I don't see that here, and I can't find any primary material relating to that. Do you happen to know where this idea is found in quotes from Celsus?
I'm not sure that it's said in exactly that fashion. Origen does write that Celsus noted that a real divine being resurrected would hardly be proving his divinity to his followers by mundane things like eating fish etc. Quote from Origen below..
'Moreover, it appears indubitable that after His resurrection He ate a piece of fish; for, according to our view, He assumed a (true) body, as one born of a woman. “But,” objects Celsus, “the body of a god does not make use of such a voice as that of Jesus, nor employ such a method of persuasion as he.”
Can't see any any where he comments directly on his reappearance being a vision unfortunately.
Love your work!
Thanks for your support my friend!
Amazing,return of celsus.
🙏
Sir,how do you see the responses of origen to the judas argument?
You're welcome!
Excellent video!
Thank you very much!
sound levels are super low... but fascinating stuff
Sorry about that! newer videos should be better.
John 9:39 Jesus said " I came to judge the people of this world. I am here to give sight to the blind and to make blind everyone who can see.".. a verse to ponder...people of the ancient time are like us today,spiritually blind ,doubters ,assuming to know everything...when in fact most of us are blind..
Matthew 13:10-12 "10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."
Great video
Thanks buddy!
I don’t think Celsus was exaggerating Jesus’ “lament” given that’s how Celsus interpreted it. One can also bring up Jesus’ crying out “my god, my god, why have you forsaken me?” as Jesus acting ungodly. I wonder which gospel Celsus read to make up his arguments..
It would be REALLY interesting to know which gospels he had access to including the various non-canonical ones which were also floating around. However all the points he makes are found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as far as I have found.
Great video. I've been wondering whether the gospel writers were really trying to write an actual history ? I saw a video with Prof. Dennis Macdonald the other day in which he claims it was more likely they were trying to create meaning from the life of Jesus the historical man and his teachings by creating an allegorical story for him; that it was never meant to be taken literally. Motifs from Homer's Odyssey and other Greek classics etc were used to craft the story. It was later Christians that mistook it all as an actual historical event.
Thx! May well be actually. Many of the stories make no sense - Why did Lazarus not stay with Jesus after he was brought to life? He should have been his most ardent disciple. Why did the three kIngs never come back to visit 'god incarnate'? John the Baptist as well?
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 It appears on the surface that it wasn't Lazarus who declined to be Jesus' disciple, but rather that Jesus, after having brunch with Lazarus at his house, simply ghosted him and acquired a new beloved one. Alternatively it appears that Lazarus became the beloved disciple and Jesus renamed him John.
Lazarus comes from Eleazar which means "God helps", and John comes from Yehohanan which means "God is gracious".
I will award Origen to become the winner of mental olympic 🤭
Certainly a contender amongst many I would say!
It's amusing how feeble, slippery, and thoroughly unconvincing many of Origen's responses are.
Certainly could have done better I think although the Christian stance has always been to retreat back into reliance on faith when cold reasoning doesn't work (and which Origen also does when required).
These are age old questions about the nature of God, it is akin to asking why God doesn’t show up to everyone and say he is there but rather leaves clues here and there for men to discern ??
is there a place to read celsus's book?
It doesn't exist anymore. Did you watch the video? He explains that
@@frauleinhohenzollern8442 if it doesn't exist in any way he wouldn't be able to quote it, I wanted to know where he was getting the quotes from
i'm afraid as @JakeJohns-hx7tcyou points out would have to read Origen's work Contra Celsum which quotes Celsus verbatim in most places.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 thank you!
Celsus had some venom
Did go straight for the jugular!
I am a Christian with unshakable faith in Christ however I admit that Celsus who was at best a second rate or even third rate philosopher ran rings around Origen who was the best of the best in Christian scholarship. This is why I tell fellow Christian’s and particularly those in the field of apologetics to stop their futile attempts. Are they greater than Origen, and yet even Origen got owned! Christianity is purely through faith.
Thx for watching! But shouldn't it be the other way around? Use of Science, logic and reasoning rather than relying on 'blind faith'. Surely a diety worth believing in would have more respect for someone using reason (even if they come up with the wrong answer) than someone simply defaulting to a belief without proper thought?
Your bias is definitely showing. If you won't consider an argument due to your faith, you might as well not even watch a debate based on logic.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Paulthesheik is right that apologetics is useless. But concerning faith, if by faith he means we should just accept and blindly believe, I think that is incorrect. Faith is supposed to be the means to the end, you are supposed to believe in the testimony of the saints, and then put it to practice in such a way that the miraculous displays a believer performs can be observed by the logical and the reasoning minds. In other words, 1 Thessalonians 1:5, the gospel comes not in word only, but also power and in the Holy Spirit. In other words, Christians were supposed to do the same works as Jesus, and even greater. But I guess some settled for apologetics and philosophy, and the rest with blind faith.
👍👍👍
Thx friend!
There is a lot of what Celsus said that Origen did not respond to and therefore is lost to the historical record. R. Joseph Hoffman postulated that 20% of On the True Word is missing. I suppose that what is missing Origen thouht to be far too shameful to read, let alone pen a response. Example, what Celsus would have remarked about Mark 14:51-52.
Jesus Christ is an allegory of the sun.
If any of us understood the nature of the Mystery that Jesus was performing and the nature of the cup that he mentions then a lot of these questions would likely be answered. He expired prematurely because he didn’t have the antidote.
Lots of Reddit users here
Why do those people not understand that the time of the Gentiles must be fulfilled. Why are they incapable of understanding that Daneil 4 empires leading into the times of the ten toes must occur that all be fulfilled before the wrath comes into play. Christ is in human form had carried out his out his human side fear concerns a chance to escape. His divine side was that his powers be suspended in order that he went through what was planned. Further in contrast to the rubbers what had christ gone through when he fell into the hands of Gentiles beaten mocked carry his own cross the works. Remember second mission the dead shall hear my voice thus the 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the Earth being where the world of the dead. He went to visit Satan kingdom to take him on then free some who came back to him. It called putting on the body of Adam. The flesh which itself has limits.
I’m back
Jesus needed show him self to crowds of people after his death. But when he does do that oh well we don’t have any other independent sources…like what do you want.
We would really substantial independent sources, not his own followers claiming 'that many saw him' for this remarkable resurrection claim to be taken more seriously I'm afraid. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” as Carl Sagan used to say. Muslims claim Mohammed split the moon in half for instance and it was seen by followers but we have no independent witnesses and I'm pretty sure you would not simply believe this claim going just by what his followers claimed.
Why don't we though?
Can you imagine the excitement that an actually resurrected being would stir?
There would be no need for the martyrdoms because no one would have questioned anything.
At the very least this is a sadistic way to manipulate mankind.
Christians argue that it's because belief is so important, but it only makes doubt necessary.
If God really loves the world why has he made it so difficult to reasonably accept?
Can you imagine if we had Pontius seeing Jesus resurrected and telling the Emperor?
It would have transformed the empire overnight.
It simply makes more sense to make Jesus another mystery cult...
There is nothing behind the scenes directing events, but there is a reality we can experience called divine.
In places like John 17:20-26 we see this suggested directly but it's considered pagan to interpret it this way.
The problem with this is Ephesians 2:11-22 says the whole point of the cross is to bring Jew and pagan together.
Something has gone seriously wrong even if Jesus was a historical figure.
Another instance of this is Galatians 3:28-29 which expresses this mystical union again, this time asserting that those who know this one are the true seeds of Abraham and heirs to the kingdom of God... a suggestion of Revelation 22:1-5 which tells us all with the light will reign together.
I'm not a Christian because they don't even understand their own mysteries...
@@frank.sophia I think there was excitement about Christianity. It expanded rapidly because of testimonies like this.
People hold on to beliefs and can be stubborn to the . Saying that some aren’t convinced is not an argument
Saying if Pilate told Augustine the empire would change over nigh I doubt. When Constantine converted after Christianity already existing for a while it still took 2-300 years for it to rid paganism.
Also if Augustine heard about Jesus I’m not sure how much he would care or be convinced. Like Celsius he wouldn’t think the god could become a man. And this Jesus guy seemed to be a weak god that was killed by Roman forces without push back.
Why is the flag post being moved so often in the video
Not sure I understand? Is there any particular point in the video you think is 'moving the flag post'?
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 Jesus did appear to of 500 people and in tradition Pontus pilot converted but when these are mentioned you well… theirs no other source that verifies it. Not how you do history.
@@FosterDuncan1 Thx for responding. Well we only have Paul claiming this in 1 Corinthians. I find it a bit odd that none of the apostles or the (anonymous) gospel writers or even any of the 500 didn't manage to find the time to write their own accounts of this most wondrous event. If I saw a crucified man coming back to life I would most certainly be shouting about it from the roof tops, calling the Roman authorities to show them that this was truly a divine being, and dragging the Jewish hierarchy to see him so they realized the Messiah was really with them. Curiously none of what we would expect happened. Paul's claim therefore is only a claim. As for Pontius Plate converting, as you say it may be tradition but no independent source mentions this important event.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 even if you are skeptical of New Testament all agree that Paul write 1st Corinthians. You saying you do multiple sources to verify an event you are throwing out 90% of ancient history. Not how you do history. And is ultimately unconvincing
So you believe that Romulus ascended to heaven and became a god, right? Because there are sources that make that claim. And you believe that Julius Caesar was descended from the Trojan hero Aeneas, who was in turn descended from the goddess Venus. Don't you? Because we also know that is true "according to tradition." And of course you must believe all of the extraordinary acts attributed to the Buddha, right? Because those are attested in sources and according to tradition.
1:22 The rising Christ is depicted wearing cellophane! 😂
it's simplistic to assume that Jesus would not have been crucified if Judas hadn't betrayed him. This is assuming the Jewish leaders would not have been able to find Jesus in spite him having a very public ministry. Like they needed judas in order to find Jesus? What's the basis for that?
Its also simplistic to think that Jesus telling Judas of his betrayal or Peter's denial means Jesus couldn't stop them. The point wasn't to stop them. Jesus was simply just letting them know he was aware, and to demonstrate his powers, and in Peters case to humble him after he claimed he would never deny Jesus.
Even as a kid I thought this was pretty obvious. Its amazing that adults would make such dumb arguments.
Quite true that they could still have crucified him - but it was his 'prophesy' at the last supper and that's all we have to go on.Anything else regarding him possibly being arrested and put to death would be simple speculation. Regarding Jesus telling Judas he is aware of the betrayal this is in fact is a VERY powerful reason for Judas changing his behaviour and intention if Jesus had sufficient influence over him.
@@FlaviusClaudiusJulianus361 exactly, Judas may have never regretted his actions if Jesus hadn't told him that he knew.
Also, If Judas had really understood Jesus he should have known he would be forgiven, instead of just killing himself. Contrast that to Paul who persecuted many people and ended up become the most influential person in the church.
Very interesting. I believe the reason Jesus died first before the others was because he was "wiped and violently beaten half to death" before they put Him on the Cross, whereas the other two were not. The story has a deeper meaning as well. The two Thieves represent two types of Humanity. Those who accept God and those who reject Him. We are all presented as "Thieves" before God because we have all robbed Him of what is rightfully His. It's all very esoteric.
According to Mark both '' thieves'' insulted Jesus, here is lack of contradictions in gospels for u.
From detention lol
why didn't the pagan gods reveal themselves?
Similar criticism to the one that pagans levelled at Jesus - that he never showed his supposed divinity and miracles in front of Greek and Roman scholars who wouldn't have been easily fooled as common fishermen
Remember Jesus didn't show his divinity when Pontius Pilate asked him to, and Romans were good at detecting frauds.
Jesus showed himself all over the city according to the bible.. not sure what celsius is on about
Earliest book of the gospels, the Book of Mark, says no one ever saw Jesus again after the women found the tomb empty.
Not true... apparently resurrected saints did, but not Jesus.
of course you've left out the strong and straight forward arguments for Jesus being God and that is Jesus also being a man.
the man part of Jesus also has a voice and we all need to hear that. Jesus wasn't just some God figure who could do all kinds of miracles He emptied Himself of many powers to become a man. He was a real man and in that state He limited Himself.
Judas was also a real man, he wasn't just playing a role. we focus on the 30 pieces a silver, but Judas was much more interested in pushing Jesus out and forcing Him to take the throne of Israel and then kicking out the Romans. we all want to force Jesus out , but that isn't how it works. Jesus is interested in changing the man not the big miracle that causes collective salvation. this is why Jesus heals people because man is the highest creation and man gets the attention. that fact that Jesus heals man is more of a proof for Godship than some big miracle. man is dead in sin, Jesus wants to make dead men live.
as for Hell and everlasting torments go, when examining the words used we can see a type of poetic hyping for intensity. Gehenna was a dump that burned outside of Jerusalem. it was a very viable place seen by all. Jesus used that as a picture of Hell. well Gehenna isn't burning today but all the trash burned there was destroyed for ever. so Celsus is making words equal to cement with no ability to change. he has taken the flexibility of word use and restricted it. then he adds a Greek culture for proofs to that attack on Jesus. so the Bible is very open to Hell not being torture for ever, and man being so important that he gets the miracles and not a great audience. for this reason Jesus is still remembered by the people today because He touches all man in the heart individually. each man can feel Jesus healing their souls from sin. men choose to live a life without sin all on their own because they listened to the voice of Jesus
Clown
Origin the heretic clowned this guy.
It took 70 years for the Christians to try to rebut Celsus. Even after 70 years, the Christians were so threatened by his book, that the church told Origen to rebut it. And if Origen did "own" Celsus why did the Christians destroy all of Celsus' books? What else did Celsus say that Origen didn't address? Guess we'll never know
Celsus clearly an arrogant character who lacked of understanding about the order required to achive perfection. He wouldve been a great muslim.
Jesus didn't expect perfection.
I don’t he understands Christology