Well, it was the locked rear diff that helped it. Our 2008 4runner has just the center diff lock like the first two vehicles and would have and has done the same thing. Still though. This thing has 180k miles in the 4.7 v8 and is still whisper quiet and has gone places where I feel like it should not have made it to!
I'm so glad I made the right choice and went with the pretty penny runner with all the off-road bells and whistles for not needing to rely on others to rescue me yet. I did say yet but we shall see the day. 💪🏽😎🤘🏽
The best 4x4 system can be found in, for example, an ancient Land Cruiser 80 which has the full-time 4WD transfer case with the lockable differential inside it and differential in both axles are also lockable. All diff locks activate manually (excluding the central diff lock which also can be activated automatically when you shift your t-case in low-range position).
Agreed. The G-wagon is still this way. It's a shame the off-road cheaper and rugged version isn't available in the USA. With the popularity of the Wrangler, I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see a 4:1 Rubicon full-time 4wd transfer case. That would be superior to the 80 series. I believe the Sahara JL can be had with full time t-case, but not the DANA 44 or lockers. So Jeep is almost there... A lot of Jeep die-hards write off full-time cases as 'junk', because Jeep put out some light duty bad ones in the past. It's a shame, I'll never go back to part time if I can help it..
@@ForgottenWaypoints Well, comparing Gelandewagen, Wrangler and Land cruiser... To sum up briefly, if I wanted to create an impression I would choose a G-wagen, If I did off-roading in North America I would have a Jeep, If I drove around the planet I would do it on a Land Cruiser. Modern and relatively modern Jeeps and G-wagen are full of electronics, if to submerge them in water up to their windshield center, they will die even having snorkels. Land Cruiser can do it pretty easily. However I have to make a remark: the current Land Cruiser 200 has absolutely the same amount of vulnerable electronics on board and it will die as well. I used to be the owner of Land Cruiser 105 for ten years, it was bought new in 2007 and it carried me from Mediterranean Sea to the Afghan border. it was the perfect expedition vehicle, two solid axles with manually lockable differentials ( TLC 105 unlike TLC 100 has the identical chassis with TLC 80), a full time lockable t-case, a naturally aspirated indestructible diesel, a manual transmission and a lot of add-ons: 275 litres of fuel on board, two spare tires, a winch etc. The most important feature of that vehicle was the total absence of any electronics, just relays... Now I live in Canada and I have a truck Ford F-150, SCrew, 5.0 V8, it is nice, it is comfortable and pretty powerful, and not touching its off-road capabilities, it has too loooong wheel base to have any of them, speaking just about the vehicle itself, comparing it with TLC 105, I do not have the feeling that I can jump into it and drive the all way down from Canada to Chile and then back without any significant technical malfunctions. If had had my TLC here and if I had had free time and enough money I would have done it without any doubts.
Except the real reason the Toyota had no trouble is that the wheelbase was longer than the obstacle. While your point is true, technically it only showed the problems with open diffs, rather than the solution of lockers. BTY: I discovered I'm not sure I like an electronic locker on my new Cherokee. The problem is that it will not disengage under torque, which means you can not engage or disengage in the middle of an obstacle to gain steering. I failed an obstacle because I couldn't turn in the middle of it. The Jeep just plowed forward in a straight line. I tried disabling the locker, but then could not make it over the first part of the obstacle. My old WJ with factory hydraulic clutch lockers would have had no problem.
Hello there! I have an idea I’ve used many time on more than one type of four wheel vehicle, that will end up stuck with opposing wheels hanging. The easiest thing to do, if you are in a rear drive based 4x4, that has a parking brake system in the rear, that would be to slowly apply the parking brake, along with the throttle, both slowly. That is using the same idea the modern computer controlled traction control works in a way, that is to control the wheel that is free and hanging from spinning and having the open differential send power across to the wheel on the ground with traction! But only to a delicate point of stopping the free wheel from spinning and to then have the power sent to the side with traction. I got the idea from an old auto engineer and race car driver named John Finch, that built and raced all kinds of cars through the sixties and seventies. He drove a Mercedes S450 sedan, where he had fixed with two handles for the rear parking brakes. He told me he used them in the snow, where he lived near Line Rock Raceway in CT. That gets s lot of snow. But anyway he would pull the handle of the wheel that was spinning to stop it and the differential would then send power across to help get out of the snow. Ever since he told me that I’ve used that trick to good effect ! Even a few times on fork lifts, that have no suspension, but would get the opposed wheels hanging for some reason or other, so I would just apply the parking brake and the hanging spinning wheel would stop, then the other wheel would get it going again.
That is as you say, old school. And there are many that don't know how to use old school techniques. ;) And thanks to todays tech. a lot of people will never learn them ways or have to. :)
theninja001 except you cant turn in 4wd. With the Land Rover I have te option to not have the center diff locked so i can turn and let the traction control do the rest. Only in extreme cases have i ever had to lock the center diff. I could never go back to a chain drive part time system. Gear driven transfer cases are so much better. When you lock the center diff it is equivalent to a regular chain drive, but you can unkock the center diff and be able to turn which is great for rock crawling when you want to be able to still steer decently.
rochab77 can’t turn in 4wd. Wtf? Of course you can! Somehow I completed the entire Rubicon trail in 4wd, and guess what? I was turning the entire time!You don’t know what you are talking about lol!
theninja001 you can turn but its harder on your drivetrain on surfaces with traction. Gear driven transfer cases dont bind up when turning unless the center diff is locked.
theninja001 and I definitely know what im talking about. When you get on a good surface you can unlock the center diff and still have 4wd, where in the part time system you'll have to go back to 2wd unless you want your drivetrain to bind. I like having full time 4wd. No shifting, put it indrive and go. To each his own but there's a reason you dont drive a jeep or any other part time 4wd system on the street in 4wd and thats my point.
Common misconception about differentials, locking a differential does not produce an equal torque split, it produces an equal rotational speed. The torque split is decided by the differential's gearing (which in the case of the Land Rover, might very well be 50/50).
On the contrary, a differential does split torque equally and provide a differential of the speeds between output shafts. An open diff will always give equal amounts of torque to either output though it could be anywhere from 0 - 100% depending on available traction. Locking the diff will guarantee 100% to both outputs at all times, regardless of traction.
Super cringe. Seriously my 7 year old can do better. Not at all being rude. He learned in about 4 obstacles. (DRIVER) (PASSENGER) (STOP) (GO) Is ALL you need. Non of this “no no no no no! Turn your wheels a LITTLE TO THE LEFT
Put a $400 lunchbox locker in my XJ rear diff, myself. Now it goes up and over about everything. The brand of locker or vehicle isn't important, only whether the locker is present. Yes, stock limited slip differentials can make a huge difference, but not comparable to a locker, entire worlds open up with a true rear locker.
Clearance is more important. A great 4wd system can assist like a rear locker enough to clear this. Lockers are good for rigs that are not Mitsubishi/subaru. Toyota,jeep,gm,ford.
Not sure why, they're body-on-frame and come with locking rear differentials, cycle just as much wheel travel stock and perform just as well. They just don't have a Toyota badge so you don't have to pay ToyoTax. Check out ua-cam.com/video/NU1G1PVxtpo/v-deo.html that rock garden puts anything on this video to shame. Not that they were trying to do anything insane though in this demonstration video of TC vs locking diff vs locking center diff. This is however an example proving to Dallas Tarderson that he doesn't know shit about what he's talking about.
I do really prefer to crawl slow through obstacles like this... But I do think the Liberty could have made it with just a touch of momentum, likely with less chance of damage than a tow strap. The spotter told the driver to stop in exactly the "wrong" place. The good news is without all the built in traction stuff, you can get a limited slip or a locker, both of which is better than brake based traction control.
Brake-based traction control plays very well with limited slips, especially gear-based units like TrueTracs and Torsen diffs. Installing a locker obviously over-rides the traction control since the sensors wont' get any speed differential across the axle (and you wouldn't want it to pulse anyway).
In most japanese offroad vehicles (at least the ones available outside of USA) engaging the rear differential lock disables the traction control system.
In the US, the traction control is available on all vehicles regardless of locker status. Which is kind of nice because then you can have the rear locked plus traction up front. Obviously, traction control does not work on the axle that is locked....it can't....if you have slip on the locked axles, you have big problems (busted diffs/driveshafts). But all the rovers/toyotas/jeeps on this side of the pond maintain traction control regardless of differential lock status.
@@ForgottenWaypoints Its good that TC stays active on front axle when the diff locked is engaged on rear axle. I think an optimal solution would be to give the user the choice to enable or disable TC on the front axle when mechanical lock is enabled on rear axle, this way vehicle can be used in sand also, where usually TC hurts more than it benefits
It was actually an LX460, if you watch our Eagle Canyon video, you'll recognize the cruiser as part of a separate party from us that happened to be Overlanding in the 'swell at the same time. Toyota fans would get a kick out of the fact that they were on a mission to pick up an alternator for a Land Rover LR3 that they left under the I70 bridge....
Yeah but with the 4Runner you didn't show if it could make it with just the rear locker on and no ATRAC. They likely didn't need to turn both on. Kind of overkill at times. You should have shown the 4runner doing it with just the ATRAC if possible.
We did. Check out our other Atrac video where we just used the traction control. What doesn't come across in this video is how close to the rock the 4Runner was to the rock and also how steep the edge was on the other side. The driver made the correct choice to have the diff lock engaged and atrac on and go as slow as possible. Could it have made it without atrac or a rear locker? Sure. So could have the liberty if we had given it more speed. But you bought the rig with the tools, might as well use them.
I'm considering a Merced Sprinter box-van at the moment, for a van-life / MC-garage build. It has 4WD and both a rear and center diff lock as well as ASR Off. Should be fairly capable for a box-van I'm thinking? I'm not going to do any real off-road with it. I just want something decent if SHTF.
For mild off roading it should be fine, you can even get them with a rear locker. But if you get off camber, Mercedes disables the 4wd, I have no idea why. We had to double pull a sprinter on the trail once because 4wd quit on an easy obstacle because it was steep and off camber. It should have never happened. That was my only complaint on an otherwise awesome rig.
@@ForgottenWaypoints Thanks. It's an old van though (2004) so I think it's permanent 4x4. Only 45000 miles though and in very good condition. Hardly any rust or damages at all. Only one owner which was an undercover cop. Not sure what the police would use a white box-van for though. It has a whiteboard and roof lights installed inside, and the roof lights are installed off-center with the whiteboard in mind. Perhaps that's a clue. 🤔
I originally thought that too, but if you look at the driver rear, the owner of the TRD told me he was pretty much flexed enough that traction was limited and the rear locker did indeed help him over. Now on the front? You are right. I saw no A-TRAC activation because he had traction on the front wheels. But it is arguable that the rear would have spun if he had the diff-lock disengaged. But......then again......it's an excellent excuse to go back out and try again!
Actually, none of the vehicles had a tire off the ground (the Liberty does lift slightly when it rolls back). The problem was differential of grip, on one side it was loose and the other side rock, plus you had some axle articulation which compounds the issue. If you look at the driver rear of the Toyota prior to cresting the small hill, it is also articulated quite a bit, so there is some unloading on the rear axle. With the front, it's harder to tell because of the angle of the camera and the fact IFS doesn't articulates differently than a solid axle. No doubt, there are wheelbase differences here, an advantage on this particular obstacle going to the 4Runner, plus the fact the 4Runner actually took a different line (closer to the rock on the passenger side) which also could have helped it. I also discussed these concerns with the owner of the 4Runner, but he claims based on the articulation of the front and rear axles that he would have spun just like us had his rear-locker and A-TRAC *not* been engaged. I guess the only way to find out for sure would be to go back and tire it open........which we might do because the trail is awesome.
Yup. The Liberty gets a bit of a bad-rap because it followed the legendary XJ. What I like about the Liberty is it seems to be one of the last 4wds you can buy nowadays without an enormous wheelbase. The Jeep Liberty KJ has a wheelbase of 104". The FJ Crusier clocks in at 106" and the Jeep Wrangler JKU is an aircraft carrier astounding 116" (Which is why you see them with 37-40" tires in order to overcome the breakover). Now the Liberty does suffer with regards to modifications thanks to the independent front, but it's size, wheelbase, approach and departure angles make it an excellent mid-duty overlanding platform, especially with a mild lift and slightly larger tires. If you need to pound lots of pavement prior to navigating narrow shelf roads, the Liberty should be on your list. Especially if you are on a budget as they are going for a great prices these days.
ATRAC and multi terrain are good, but many trails lockers are safer and less stress on the drivetrain. Check out my Golden Spike adventure where we find the limits of ABS traction control.
It would have made it over, similar to the Disco, unless the clutch pack was worn. I have a BIL who wants an Xterra really bad. I hope he gets one, I'd love to feature the Xterra on my channel.
...what I didn't do was brake modulate. I prefer to give it steady throttle and let the system take over instead, even though it allows a bit more slipping.
therivershark , I don't believe the taco has an option for a full-time transfer case, so no, you wouldn't want to. However, all manual transmission FJ cruisers have the full-time transfer case with center diff. That's a highly desirable combination, IMO. Which makes me wonder, do manual transmission Tacos have a selectable center differential??
Jeep Rubicon and Ford Bronco. Ineos Grenadier and G wagon (as well as 300 series land cruiser overseas) also have front and rear lockers, but they are full time. .oh, I forgot the ZR2 Colorado and Power Wagon on the truck side.
The traction control on the land rover discovery is nothing more than automatic break modulation. You can do the same thing by letting the vehicle idle down, apply the breaks and slowly give gas. This will transfer power to the wheels that have traction.
That's how traction control works. Watch our video of A-Trac on Hell's revenge and see that the 4runner does the exact same thing... ua-cam.com/video/50HzDfO0134/v-deo.html
From the camera angle WE had that spotter certainly did seem to be guiding those vehicles into more trouble than they deserved. But do not judge too hard since you were not there to see all that they could with the naked eye. ;)
Technically with lockers engaged the torque goes to the wheel with the most grip. Open lockers have the torque go to both wheels evenly, causing the one with no grip to spin. Sorry, I had to be 'that guy' ;)
Torque is a rotational force. If you're sending torque to both wheels evenly then the one with no grip will spin freely, since it doesn't take much torque to move it. The other wheel with the grip doesn't move, since it is getting the same amount of torque. By locking the axles together you are allowing the torque to go to the wheel with the most grip. Honestly though, it's just a technicality that doesn't matter. I'm a physics guy though, so couldn't leave it!
Yup, which is why single-wheel ABS-pulsing works. You add resistance to the wheel that is spinning freely and it takes more torque from the engine to attempt to spin it, which makes it easier to "spin" the opposite wheel (which has grip) and you get over the obstacle (but not as cleanly as with a locker). Open Diff ==> Wheels have equal torque, different rotational speeds. Locked Diff ==> Equal Rotational speeds, which likewise means different torques measured at each wheel. Alejandro, there is actually a time and a place for both (which is why an AWD car has three open differentials (one at each axle AND in the center (to allow different rotational speeds between front and rear axles)), but for a hard-core rock climb pretty much old-school lockers are the standard. Revere Overland is right, it is a small technicality, and I wish UA-cam had an easier way to edit the video, because it is causing some confusion. Maybe I'll just pin this comment so it is the first people read...
You have to apply light braking while still applying throttle. Just braking won't do anything. Honestly, I'm not skilled in that technique as I don't wheel that way, I just give constant, steady throttle and let the TC do it's thing. So hopefully someone else will chime in how it's best done. The braking under load was a trick used in the day to help convince mechanical limited slips to lock in.
@@lowrange1486 , I know Toyota does this with ATRAC, I'll have to get in the dirt and test it on my Discovery 2. I'll bet you are right. In this example though you can see how much wheelspin is required to make the Disco 2 traction control kick in, it's not a very aggressive system. So using the brake-throttle technique at the beginning at a low RPM may have actually been superior to letting the TC kick in. It certainly wouldn't have hurt the Liberty. I never really liked this technique back in the day anyway, in order to prevent snapping shafts you had to stop and then apply throttle with gentle braking force. It was all done by feel. Some people were really good at it. We just bought a locker instead... ;).
@@ForgottenWaypoints I read the D2 technical manual twice (don't know why but I did it) and I understand how SLABS ecu works. If brake force is applied (input from brake pedal is received) then TC/HDC is disengaged.
Ideally, I would want a gear driven two speed full-time transfer case with all three (front, rear, center) diff locks selectable. Personally, I find part time transfer cases (like a Jeep) less flexible. Not so much on the rocks, but in poor weather (snow, rain, etc).
But the best off road is mechanical lockers, great articulation, and steep gear reduction, it's why the Jeep Rubicon is so successful out of the box and as a buggy platform.
Save a ton of $$$ and just buy an ATV/SBS to go play on the rocks. Trust me it's much much cheaper, and in all actuality, it s even more fun. Been there done that. Good vid tho man.
It all depends on what you do. I'm going to eventually set mine up for Overlanding (on and off highway multi-day adventures), and SxS doesn't have the range or highway legality/speed. That's the biggest kicker for me right now. My last adventure (link below) was 140 miles off-road and it wasn't even round trip. If I had to do that in a side-by-side (round trip) it would have been over 200 miles just to "get back to the trailer", that's impossible in a single afternoon. As for cost, it depends on how expensive your rig is. My discovery was $5k and I overpaid. I've never seen a used side-by-side in that range. Plus I take my entire family (5 people), so that means at least two side by sides are required. Even if I did find a SxS, I'd need a truck and a trailer. That leaves a budget of $1,375 each for a Truck, Trailer, and two side-by-sides to equal the cost of my Discovery 2. In fact, the lifetime cost (4 years) of my Disco + repairs + mods + gas for the adventures is slightly less than the going rate of a single used side by side and still thousands less than a new one. Every time I run the numbers, SxS/ATV is more expensive. That said, they definitely have their place in the off-road community, and I hope to add a few to my garage for the
McTig: My point still stands because you end up spending a lot more money with the ATV. Most people don't have a place to park their toy hauler. Most apartment dweller only has one truck or one Jeep to do everything.
If my friends heard me saying this, they would tell me how much I sound like a broken record. But just go buy a Cherokee. It's way better than a SBS, cheaper, easier to modify, and you actually get doors and real seats, with storage space. The XJ is the best value going in off-roading today.
Yep. I'm confident we could have gotten the liberty up, but we had the group behind us in the LX that needed to get out and get a part for another rig and we didn't want to risk body damage to the Liberty. And you'd have laughed at how far we nudged it. Like 6 inches, and then it got over on its own power. Yeah, the video was in no-wise a reflection of the capabilities of the 1st generation Liberty, a platform which we feel is vastly underrated.
In theory, it would have made it over, just like we could have gotten the Liberty over with a bit more speed. Most likely (in 2wd/rear locker) it would have spun a bit and slid to the right due to lack of traction in the front. This is something you would not want to have happen since that is where the drop off is. The only scenario where I've seen "2-lo" come in handy while rock-crawling was an old CJ7 we had and the front axle had a lock-right locker. Since the transfer case had a 2-low option, we would use that to engage and disengage the front locker. It worked well, but for most people (and the typical stock transfer case, such as the TRD in the video) you'll already be in 4wd low range before you even get to this type of obstacle.
Not to mention, most (if not ALL) newer vehicles with factory diff locker(s) will not allow you to engage them in anything other than 4 low, and even then they only stay engaged up to a certain speed.
Michael Smith There are a handful of 2wd trucks with rear lockers. Wish someone would make a good video of just rear locker capabilities. Not as effective off-road as 4wd for obvious reasons, but a lot of added benefits you wouldn’t have on a 4wd.
Dylan McLernon yeah, selectable lockers are the way to go. Full-time lockers like that are definitely not ideal for the street. Those are really much more suited for a dedicated trail rig.
With the discovery 2 you just turn the car off with the CDL engaged, turn the car back on and BOOM: All of your ABS assist goes away and you are traction control free, just like the good ol' days.
There can be situations where traction control isn't beneficial because each time the breaks fire it can slow momentum. The 4Runner default in 4-low for A-Trac is off.
J1I9M7M4Y at least on the land rover the traction control system does not reduce engine power. I have a discovery II and it works so well I almost never have to engage the center diff lock. Its never slowed me down like I thought it would
That`s nice. I have a VW Amarok as a work car, and it is ABSOLUTELY useless! I was driving uphill and there was some snow on the road so the wheels started to spin. The traction control engaged and that was it.. Had to turn and disengage the tc so i could gain some speed and make a 2nd try. My Jeep WJ would have made it with racing slicks..
Agreed. We touched on wheelbase traps in our followup video on Hell's Revenge at the following link. We plan to do more vids on wheelbase/flex pros and cons in the future to.: ua-cam.com/video/50HzDfO0134/v-deo.html
It would have. The Liberty could have made it over with a bit more speed too (just enough to bounce it over the off-camber spot), but we didn't want to risk it with the edge off the driver side (you can't see it very well in the video). If the Liberty also had even a limited slip, it would have pushed it over. The obstacle isn't that difficult, but the footage we captured was pretty good at showing the differences with traction aids.
i have a traklock cluched lsd in my rear and a eaton elocker in the front diff. i dont trust traction control computers to do the same thing with breaking that you do by physically joining shafts
I've actually found Traction Control a pleasant surprise vs clutched limited slips (Jeep stockers don't seem to last much past 60-80k miles). Now, compared to a torsen style like true Trac? That's another story..
Probably could have done it quite well since you are narrower and the wheelbase is probably just right too. The challenge for the brat would be the rock garden just after...it was much bigger rocks than this, just not as off camber. Especially since you don't have a low range AWD box, right? This is an incline and it's steeper later, we were all in low range for the last few miles. But anything is possible.
There are plenty of advantages to worm-gear style, like torsens and True-Tracs. I hope to install True-Tracs on my Discovery 2 in the future to discuss the pros and cons. What I really like about the true-tracs is that they limit torque just enough to offer some protection to the relative weak stock axles of the discovery. When combined with traction control, the true-tracs lock up pretty quick and offer most of the advantages of a locker. But I have yet to test that theory.
You really don't. It's not a "hard core" trail by any stretch. But there was a drop off to the driver side (can't really see it in the vid) and a rock on the passenger side (you can see that), and the goal was to get out with minimal damage. Listening to a spotter is good practice. It was far more technical in nature after this spot, but a mistake was much more forgiving (so the Liberty could give it some throttle to overcome the lack of traction aids).
Two of the the drivers have decades of experience off road. I'm not sure about the third driver. Our philosophy is to use a spotter if there is any concern. I truly believe it is better to use a spotter if the driver has any concern instead of just driving through. What you can't see in the video is how narrow this actually was (it was washed out but that can't be seen), and you can't see the way the rear end wants to slide toward the rock and catch the rear quarter panel. I was driving the 4Runner. It was an inch from the rock on the passenger side and only a few inches from the washed out area on the driver's side. Could I have done this without a spotter? Sure, I do more technical climbs all the time. Could I do this and guarantee that I wouldn't hit my body panel or drop the tire into the hole you can't see with a precarious edge? Nope. The vehicle was new to me and I was still learning the size of the vehicle and the tire placement.
Model T would have cleared it, zero problem. SAS front end, Locked diffs on the rear. Traction control trans, Open top, removable doors, plenty of ground clearance, dub carbon rims. Full delete paint job.
I'd really worry about the black paint and the cooling system. At altitude, in the desert, at slow speed, under that kind of load, I would think you'd overheat before even your gearing became an issue. No?
Maybe on the highway, uphill in full sunlight, but I hadn't heard of that particular issue. Less parts are nice though on the trail. Less things to go wrong. Bummer to have a water pump go out.
In defense of the Jeep Liberty (which is an excellent rig in its own right), it didn't struggle. We opted to take a strap so we wouldn't risk hitting the rear passenger quarter panel when taking the bump at speed since he was open diff'd. We weren't there on a competition, but to get underneath the impressive I-70 span at Eagle Canyon. You really should go there if you haven't seen it. The trail isn't that hard. Rated a 3 or 4, depending on how washed out it is at the time you travel it.
Jason Carpp ,, it depends on what you like. For hardcore rock crawlers, the best is selectable front and rear lockers, so the Jeep Rubicon (especially with electronic swaybar disconnect is tough to beat. The Hummer H3 is a bit undderated, IMO, the later model Adventure Package has selectable front and rear lockers, DANA 44s front and rear, 4:1 Tcase that is AWD/Permenant four wheel drive, the only downside is that the front independent suspension can't flex like the Jeep can. In the end, it depends on what you want to do with your vehicle and build to those targets. Eventually, I'd like to add True-Tracs (essentially Torsten-style limited slips) on my Discovery 2. The theory being the electronic traction control will pulse and engage the limited slips quickly and give me more control. Those that have them on Discos like them. The downside with selectable lockers on the D2, is that the axles are weak and the stress of the lockers requires you to spend money on expensive heavy duty axles. At that point; in my opinion, you should be looking at a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon at minimum instead. I'm going to test my Discovery 2 without True-Tracs on Golden Spike and it will be a good test for the vehicle, considering I only have 32" tires and no full-time lockers. This trail is rated as a 7 (although I'll probably need to use some bypasses, I'm ok with that), and it represents the target "build" of my off-road performance. Once I can master that trail (and Moab Rim), I'm going to focus on Overland building, which is quite a different mindset from Rock Crawling builds. If you liked the video, please subscribe. I'm going to add more content. My cousin in the TRD-Pro Toyota also owns and XJ that he's built VERY nice with 33" tires and selectable OX-Lockers, but he kept his lift small (cut the fenders to do so) in order to keep his center of gravity low. We intend to do some videos of his current build to show it off as well. Thanks for the question!
Jason: Forget about all the ads from Toyota. Just get yourself a Wrangler Rubicon that have front and rear lockers and you are set. You can put more mods into the Rubicon to make it look cooler but the Rubicon is da bomb.
Yup, you wouldn't even need the rear locker as ABS traction control would do just fine like the disco. In defense of the Liberty, it has nice off road angles and is easy to mod to cross obstacles like this.
@@ForgottenWaypoints yeah it just needs a front and rear limited slip and it would be fine. It would probably own my Cherokee... Still the problem with the Cherokee and the compass is it's difficult to put a bigger tires under them.... That's my biggest gripe.... I have a compass trailhawk too... I have the compass Trailhawk and the Cherokee Trailhawk
@@ForgottenWaypoints The stock 245 65 is a good size tire.... I think I could put a 265 60 on it without a lift... But I think that's about it.... There are grocery getter cars that have bigger tires than that.... GMC Acadia does for example....
@@ForgottenWaypoints someone did finally make really good off-road tires for the Jeep compass and Jeep Patriot falcon made some wild peak tires... And I don't mean the kind that came on the compass trail hawk.... I mean the real ones lol.... I just bought some of those and they're pretty darn good.... It's a wider treadway without getting a wider tire... A lot of people don't know that that's possible but it is... Tires are measured on section with not tread width.... And just by changing the type of tire that you have you can get an inch wider tread without changing the section with in some cases. That was true for these. I am on my fourth 2.4 L Jeep. I had a 2008 compass I had a 2015 Patriot I have a 2016 Cherokee Trailhawk and a 2018 compass Trailhawk... And all of those cars are pretty much the same tire except for the Cherokee... I was always disappointed I couldn't get a good tire but now you can... Like 10 years later... Hahaha..... There's a lot of 215 65 17 jeeps on the road thats for sure. "pizza cutters". Honestly and everyday driving it doesn't matter because the new compass is basically all wheel drive and no tires are never going to slide... Not in the rain anyway... I love the new basically all wheel drive compass and Cherokee they are extremely good in the rain I drive in the rain every day in Alabama practically... They're extremely good severe weather vehicles.
The Cherokee Trailhawk has the rear locker, right? You'd go right through this. This trail has been maintained recently, and if this year's monsoons haven't done any serious erosion, the Cherokee Trailhawk should make this climb as easy as the 4Runner, even on factory size tires. Just pick the right line.
I couldn't drive a Jeep Liberty but I do own a Jeep. I'm also a huge fan of Toyotas. Having said that I think the brand of your vehicle is completely irrelevant even independent front suspension vs. Solid axle is not as important as having some sort of locking differential or traction system. if you don't have power to the four wheels, What business do you have being off the road? If you're getting into four wheeling fine be the guy that's always got to get pulled by a strap but if you doing this on the weekends please for the rest of us lock your differentials.
Puseram um pick up nova e uns carros velhos, é sacanagem né, fazem como os americanos poxa, põem GM pra competir com os da Ford, os RAM tudo do mesmo nível
Land Rover Discovery AWD?????? (All Wheel Drive) WTF. All Range Rovers, Discoverys and Defenders are PERMANENT 4WD bro!!!! Good video but get things right hey...
Technically, the D2 is equipped with an LT232 helical geared transfer case with a center differential and low range gear reducer and if you are lucky it will have a diff-lock installed on it (which mine did an hooked up). Permenant 4wd and AWD are the same thing, it's semantics, some companies call it permenant, Jeep calls it "full time" and others call it All-wheel, but in the end it's the same, full time has a center diff, and part time does not. Thee p38's diff is a viscous coupling, and later classics use a viscous coupling, but the older ones have the same LT232, which is highly desirable because of how robust it is.
Ha ha ha, thanks for the laugh. I guess that means those participants in rock crawling competitions shouldn't be there either. They all have spotters...
See an updated video here!
ua-cam.com/video/50HzDfO0134/v-deo.html
So in other words, the 4Runner is the superior offroading machine ;) got it! hahaha
Well, it was the locked rear diff that helped it. Our 2008 4runner has just the center diff lock like the first two vehicles and would have and has done the same thing. Still though. This thing has 180k miles in the 4.7 v8 and is still whisper quiet and has gone places where I feel like it should not have made it to!
@@furion7040 does the 2008 have atrac?
I wonder why people bring like brand new 60k 4runners out there.
@@Venom3303 Because thats what 4runners are made for?
Yup! And Most reliable!
I'm so glad I made the right choice and went with the pretty penny runner with all the off-road bells and whistles for not needing to rely on others to rescue me yet. I did say yet but we shall see the day. 💪🏽😎🤘🏽
Appreciate the video, nice comparison, not often you see three vehicles compared so clearly. Thanks.
The best 4x4 system can be found in, for example, an ancient Land Cruiser 80 which has the full-time 4WD transfer case with the lockable differential inside it and differential in both axles are also lockable. All diff locks activate manually (excluding the central diff lock which also can be activated automatically when you shift your t-case in low-range position).
Agreed. The G-wagon is still this way. It's a shame the off-road cheaper and rugged version isn't available in the USA.
With the popularity of the Wrangler, I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see a 4:1 Rubicon full-time 4wd transfer case. That would be superior to the 80 series. I believe the Sahara JL can be had with full time t-case, but not the DANA 44 or lockers. So Jeep is almost there...
A lot of Jeep die-hards write off full-time cases as 'junk', because Jeep put out some light duty bad ones in the past. It's a shame, I'll never go back to part time if I can help it..
@@ForgottenWaypoints Well, comparing Gelandewagen, Wrangler and Land cruiser...
To sum up briefly, if I wanted to create an impression I would choose a G-wagen, If I did off-roading in North America I would have a Jeep, If I drove around the planet I would do it on a Land Cruiser.
Modern and relatively modern Jeeps and G-wagen are full of electronics, if to submerge them in water up to their windshield center, they will die even having snorkels. Land Cruiser can do it pretty easily. However I have to make a remark: the current Land Cruiser 200 has absolutely the same amount of vulnerable electronics on board and it will die as well.
I used to be the owner of Land Cruiser 105 for ten years, it was bought new in 2007 and it carried me from Mediterranean Sea to the Afghan border. it was the perfect expedition vehicle, two solid axles with manually lockable differentials ( TLC 105 unlike TLC 100 has the identical chassis with TLC 80), a full time lockable t-case, a naturally aspirated indestructible diesel, a manual transmission and a lot of add-ons: 275 litres of fuel on board, two spare tires, a winch etc. The most important feature of that vehicle was the total absence of any electronics, just relays...
Now I live in Canada and I have a truck Ford F-150, SCrew, 5.0 V8, it is nice, it is comfortable and pretty powerful, and not touching its off-road capabilities, it has too loooong wheel base to have any of them, speaking just about the vehicle itself, comparing it with TLC 105, I do not have the feeling that I can jump into it and drive the all way down from Canada to Chile and then back without any significant technical malfunctions. If had had my TLC here and if I had had free time and enough money I would have done it without any doubts.
@@danis1579 , those of us in the states lust after the 105. Cabin upgrades of the 100 series with the running gear of the 80. What's not to love??
Except the real reason the Toyota had no trouble is that the wheelbase was longer than the obstacle. While your point is true, technically it only showed the problems with open diffs, rather than the solution of lockers.
BTY: I discovered I'm not sure I like an electronic locker on my new Cherokee. The problem is that it will not disengage under torque, which means you can not engage or disengage in the middle of an obstacle to gain steering. I failed an obstacle because I couldn't turn in the middle of it. The Jeep just plowed forward in a straight line. I tried disabling the locker, but then could not make it over the first part of the obstacle. My old WJ with factory hydraulic clutch lockers would have had no problem.
Daveinet I think it was ground clearance that helped most
Hello there! I have an idea I’ve used many time on more than one type of four wheel vehicle, that will end up stuck with opposing wheels hanging. The easiest thing to do, if you are in a rear drive based 4x4, that has a parking brake system in the rear, that would be to slowly apply the parking brake, along with the throttle, both slowly. That is using the same idea the modern computer controlled traction control works in a way, that is to control the wheel that is free and hanging from spinning and having the open differential send power across to the wheel on the ground with traction! But only to a delicate point of stopping the free wheel from spinning and to then have the power sent to the side with traction. I got the idea from an old auto engineer and race car driver named John Finch, that built and raced all kinds of cars through the sixties and seventies. He drove a Mercedes S450 sedan, where he had fixed with two handles for the rear parking brakes. He told me he used them in the snow, where he lived near Line Rock Raceway in CT. That gets s lot of snow. But anyway he would pull the handle of the wheel that was spinning to stop it and the differential would then send power across to help get out of the snow. Ever since he told me that I’ve used that trick to good effect ! Even a few times on fork lifts, that have no suspension, but would get the opposed wheels hanging for some reason or other, so I would just apply the parking brake and the hanging spinning wheel would stop, then the other wheel would get it going again.
That is as you say, old school. And there are many that don't know how to use old school techniques. ;) And thanks to todays tech. a lot of people will never learn them ways or have to. :)
I'm sure it's good to use but 5th gen 4runners have Atrac for that
I have an easier method - use the rear locker and take it out of 4WD. Guarantee you have at least one rear wheel on the ground ;)
The best system is a real transfer case and at least a rear locker. Simple, and still the best after decades!
theninja001 except you cant turn in 4wd. With the Land Rover I have te option to not have the center diff locked so i can turn and let the traction control do the rest. Only in extreme cases have i ever had to lock the center diff. I could never go back to a chain drive part time system. Gear driven transfer cases are so much better. When you lock the center diff it is equivalent to a regular chain drive, but you can unkock the center diff and be able to turn which is great for rock crawling when you want to be able to still steer decently.
rochab77 can’t turn in 4wd. Wtf? Of course you can! Somehow I completed the entire Rubicon trail in 4wd, and guess what? I was turning the entire time!You don’t know what you are talking about lol!
theninja001 you can turn but its harder on your drivetrain on surfaces with traction. Gear driven transfer cases dont bind up when turning unless the center diff is locked.
theninja001 and I definitely know what im talking about. When you get on a good surface you can unlock the center diff and still have 4wd, where in the part time system you'll have to go back to 2wd unless you want your drivetrain to bind. I like having full time 4wd. No shifting, put it indrive and go. To each his own but there's a reason you dont drive a jeep or any other part time 4wd system on the street in 4wd and thats my point.
theninja001 same reason why you don't try and make a full lock tirn with your front and rear diff lock engaged.
great explanation and demonstration! Thanks!
Common misconception about differentials, locking a differential does not produce an equal torque split, it produces an equal rotational speed. The torque split is decided by the differential's gearing (which in the case of the Land Rover, might very well be 50/50).
You are correct, there was a thread below where we discussed where I mis-spoke.
it's all good, the mechanics of differentials are confusing at best. Things get even weirder with limited slip and torque biasing differentials.
On the contrary, a differential does split torque equally and provide a differential of the speeds between output shafts. An open diff will always give equal amounts of torque to either output though it could be anywhere from 0 - 100% depending on available traction. Locking the diff will guarantee 100% to both outputs at all times, regardless of traction.
That spotter was cringe.
Which is exactly why I try to stay behind the camera as often as possible...
You were good bro.
What? Why?
Super cringe. Seriously my 7 year old can do better. Not at all being rude. He learned in about 4 obstacles. (DRIVER) (PASSENGER) (STOP) (GO) Is ALL you need. Non of this “no no no no no! Turn your wheels a LITTLE TO THE LEFT
Michael Aguiar SLOOW SLOOOW SLOOOW RIDE THE 4x4 SLOOOW 🤣
Put a $400 lunchbox locker in my XJ rear diff, myself. Now it goes up and over about everything. The brand of locker or vehicle isn't important, only whether the locker is present. Yes, stock limited slip differentials can make a huge difference, but not comparable to a locker, entire worlds open up with a true rear locker.
I'd prefer lsd for a every day drive around street or off road. Extreme off road like climbing mountain boulders and deep mud. I'd go locked diffs
Rear locker, most valuable offroad modification possible, followed by sliders. mic drop.......
Clearance is more important. A great 4wd system can assist like a rear locker enough to clear this. Lockers are good for rigs that are not Mitsubishi/subaru. Toyota,jeep,gm,ford.
Case in point 4runners are the best
Well vehicles with rear locking diffs are best- I do like 4runners though, but my Xterra will keep up just as easily.
DRTMaverick no it wont
Oh it will little buddy, and it cycles more wheel travel than that stock 4runner. The tard is strong with this one...
Not sure why, they're body-on-frame and come with locking rear differentials, cycle just as much wheel travel stock and perform just as well. They just don't have a Toyota badge so you don't have to pay ToyoTax.
Check out ua-cam.com/video/NU1G1PVxtpo/v-deo.html that rock garden puts anything on this video to shame. Not that they were trying to do anything insane though in this demonstration video of TC vs locking diff vs locking center diff. This is however an example proving to Dallas Tarderson that he doesn't know shit about what he's talking about.
The Xterra is so good that they don't make it any more!!!! ;)
Yeah that drop on the drivers side is not dangerously close but would make me tread carefully. If you were to over that it would be a bad time.
I do really prefer to crawl slow through obstacles like this... But I do think the Liberty could have made it with just a touch of momentum, likely with less chance of damage than a tow strap. The spotter told the driver to stop in exactly the "wrong" place. The good news is without all the built in traction stuff, you can get a limited slip or a locker, both of which is better than brake based traction control.
Brake-based traction control plays very well with limited slips, especially gear-based units like TrueTracs and Torsen diffs. Installing a locker obviously over-rides the traction control since the sensors wont' get any speed differential across the axle (and you wouldn't want it to pulse anyway).
Nice, just need a sample of something with twin lockers
We have a few vehicles so equipped which we plan to do future videos with
In most japanese offroad vehicles (at least the ones available outside of USA) engaging the rear differential lock disables the traction control system.
In the US, the traction control is available on all vehicles regardless of locker status. Which is kind of nice because then you can have the rear locked plus traction up front.
Obviously, traction control does not work on the axle that is locked....it can't....if you have slip on the locked axles, you have big problems (busted diffs/driveshafts).
But all the rovers/toyotas/jeeps on this side of the pond maintain traction control regardless of differential lock status.
@@ForgottenWaypoints Its good that TC stays active on front axle when the diff locked is engaged on rear axle. I think an optimal solution would be to give the user the choice to enable or disable TC on the front axle when mechanical lock is enabled on rear axle, this way vehicle can be used in sand also, where usually TC hurts more than it benefits
how dare you not include that Cruiser in the back
It was actually an LX460, if you watch our Eagle Canyon video, you'll recognize the cruiser as part of a separate party from us that happened to be Overlanding in the 'swell at the same time.
Toyota fans would get a kick out of the fact that they were on a mission to pick up an alternator for a Land Rover LR3 that they left under the I70 bridge....
@@ForgottenWaypoints dude they are twins. Just the LX comes with adjustable height control
@@naboo3901 ; funny you should bring this up, I actually own both an LX470 and GX470 right now.
The spotter is best in collecting trolleys
Yeah but with the 4Runner you didn't show if it could make it with just the rear locker on and no ATRAC. They likely didn't need to turn both on. Kind of overkill at times. You should have shown the 4runner doing it with just the ATRAC if possible.
We did. Check out our other Atrac video where we just used the traction control. What doesn't come across in this video is how close to the rock the 4Runner was to the rock and also how steep the edge was on the other side. The driver made the correct choice to have the diff lock engaged and atrac on and go as slow as possible. Could it have made it without atrac or a rear locker? Sure. So could have the liberty if we had given it more speed. But you bought the rig with the tools, might as well use them.
An important note is that while the rear diff lock is engaged, the ATRAC doesn’t do anything for the rear wheels. Only front
I'm considering a Merced Sprinter box-van at the moment, for a van-life / MC-garage build. It has 4WD and both a rear and center diff lock as well as ASR Off. Should be fairly capable for a box-van I'm thinking? I'm not going to do any real off-road with it. I just want something decent if SHTF.
For mild off roading it should be fine, you can even get them with a rear locker. But if you get off camber, Mercedes disables the 4wd, I have no idea why. We had to double pull a sprinter on the trail once because 4wd quit on an easy obstacle because it was steep and off camber. It should have never happened. That was my only complaint on an otherwise awesome rig.
@@ForgottenWaypoints Thanks. It's an old van though (2004) so I think it's permanent 4x4. Only 45000 miles though and in very good condition. Hardly any rust or damages at all. Only one owner which was an undercover cop. Not sure what the police would use a white box-van for though. It has a whiteboard and roof lights installed inside, and the roof lights are installed off-center with the whiteboard in mind. Perhaps that's a clue. 🤔
@@MatthiasNyberg , so that’s the source of the “FBI Surveillance Van” WiFi networks!
the articulation on the toyota didn't allow a wheel to lift off to truly show how the system works
I originally thought that too, but if you look at the driver rear, the owner of the TRD told me he was pretty much flexed enough that traction was limited and the rear locker did indeed help him over. Now on the front? You are right. I saw no A-TRAC activation because he had traction on the front wheels. But it is arguable that the rear would have spun if he had the diff-lock disengaged.
But......then again......it's an excellent excuse to go back out and try again!
Did the Jeep Liberty not have EPS traction assistance? If it did, it should have pulled through.
No, it was an earlier model.
You should have rev it a little more so the LSD kicks in then !!!!!!
Great vid! Problem is Toyota is on the ground with all 4 tires.
Actually, none of the vehicles had a tire off the ground (the Liberty does lift slightly when it rolls back). The problem was differential of grip, on one side it was loose and the other side rock, plus you had some axle articulation which compounds the issue. If you look at the driver rear of the Toyota prior to cresting the small hill, it is also articulated quite a bit, so there is some unloading on the rear axle. With the front, it's harder to tell because of the angle of the camera and the fact IFS doesn't articulates differently than a solid axle.
No doubt, there are wheelbase differences here, an advantage on this particular obstacle going to the 4Runner, plus the fact the 4Runner actually took a different line (closer to the rock on the passenger side) which also could have helped it. I also discussed these concerns with the owner of the 4Runner, but he claims based on the articulation of the front and rear axles that he would have spun just like us had his rear-locker and A-TRAC *not* been engaged.
I guess the only way to find out for sure would be to go back and tire it open........which we might do because the trail is awesome.
What year liberty? All 2006 and up libertys have BLD (brake lock differential). That system solves the cross axle problem. Great video.
I can't remember, but it didn't have any form of traction control.
8LIFGR8 4x4 in that case definitely an 2005. I'm a big fan of the liberty. Because of what you said about the dimensions. Tight fit.
Yup. The Liberty gets a bit of a bad-rap because it followed the legendary XJ. What I like about the Liberty is it seems to be one of the last 4wds you can buy nowadays without an enormous wheelbase. The Jeep Liberty KJ has a wheelbase of 104". The FJ Crusier clocks in at 106" and the Jeep Wrangler JKU is an aircraft carrier astounding 116" (Which is why you see them with 37-40" tires in order to overcome the breakover).
Now the Liberty does suffer with regards to modifications thanks to the independent front, but it's size, wheelbase, approach and departure angles make it an excellent mid-duty overlanding platform, especially with a mild lift and slightly larger tires. If you need to pound lots of pavement prior to navigating narrow shelf roads, the Liberty should be on your list. Especially if you are on a budget as they are going for a great prices these days.
8LIFGR8 4x4 well said. 😊
4 runner almost never needs a rear locker with multi terrain select. Much safer to use over a locked diff as well.
ATRAC and multi terrain are good, but many trails lockers are safer and less stress on the drivetrain. Check out my Golden Spike adventure where we find the limits of ABS traction control.
Nice video. It would have been cool to have a part time 4wd with an lsd rear end (like my gen1 xterra) with those in the video to see the difference.
It would have made it over, similar to the Disco, unless the clutch pack was worn. I have a BIL who wants an Xterra really bad. I hope he gets one, I'd love to feature the Xterra on my channel.
Disco has centre locking diff. Did you engage? Looks like you were only using TC?
Center diff lock was engaged. If you watch closely, you'll see both the front and rear slip in sync right before the TC takes over.
...what I didn't do was brake modulate. I prefer to give it steady throttle and let the system take over instead, even though it allows a bit more slipping.
can you put the taco in 4wd while on drive pavement like you can a 4runner with a center diff?
therivershark , I don't believe the taco has an option for a full-time transfer case, so no, you wouldn't want to.
However, all manual transmission FJ cruisers have the full-time transfer case with center diff. That's a highly desirable combination, IMO.
Which makes me wonder, do manual transmission Tacos have a selectable center differential??
Which part time 4WD vehicles come with front and rear lockers?
Jeep Rubicon and Ford Bronco. Ineos Grenadier and G wagon (as well as 300 series land cruiser overseas) also have front and rear lockers, but they are full time.
.oh, I forgot the ZR2 Colorado and Power Wagon on the truck side.
@@ForgottenWaypoints
Land cruiser 300 part time 4wd?????
My $2,000 Mitsubishi Montero Sr would have crawled right through that without any problem.
So, it wasn't there.
I could have walked over it....
The traction control on the land rover discovery is nothing more than automatic break modulation. You can do the same thing by letting the vehicle idle down, apply the breaks and slowly give gas. This will transfer power to the wheels that have traction.
That's how traction control works. Watch our video of A-Trac on Hell's revenge and see that the 4runner does the exact same thing...
ua-cam.com/video/50HzDfO0134/v-deo.html
If someone would have gagged the spotter they all would have been fine.
From the camera angle WE had that spotter certainly did seem to be guiding those vehicles into more trouble than they deserved. But do not judge too hard since you were not there to see all that they could with the naked eye. ;)
Crown King?
Technically with lockers engaged the torque goes to the wheel with the most grip. Open lockers have the torque go to both wheels evenly, causing the one with no grip to spin.
Sorry, I had to be 'that guy' ;)
Good Catch! This was our first video, and I'm sure other unintentional mistakes crept in. As you know, it's a lot harder to narrate than it seems.
No problem! It's still a good comparison of the differences between each. A small technicality doesn't take away from that!
The locker lock the two parts of the axles and send the torque to both wheels or drive shafts in the case of the land rover
Torque is a rotational force.
If you're sending torque to both wheels evenly then the one with no grip will spin freely, since it doesn't take much torque to move it. The other wheel with the grip doesn't move, since it is getting the same amount of torque.
By locking the axles together you are allowing the torque to go to the wheel with the most grip.
Honestly though, it's just a technicality that doesn't matter. I'm a physics guy though, so couldn't leave it!
Yup, which is why single-wheel ABS-pulsing works. You add resistance to the wheel that is spinning freely and it takes more torque from the engine to attempt to spin it, which makes it easier to "spin" the opposite wheel (which has grip) and you get over the obstacle (but not as cleanly as with a locker).
Open Diff ==> Wheels have equal torque, different rotational speeds. Locked Diff ==> Equal Rotational speeds, which likewise means different torques measured at each wheel.
Alejandro, there is actually a time and a place for both (which is why an AWD car has three open differentials (one at each axle AND in the center (to allow different rotational speeds between front and rear axles)), but for a hard-core rock climb pretty much old-school lockers are the standard.
Revere Overland is right, it is a small technicality, and I wish UA-cam had an easier way to edit the video, because it is causing some confusion. Maybe I'll just pin this comment so it is the first people read...
Hitting the brake will activate Traction Control? Is that what you said?
You have to apply light braking while still applying throttle. Just braking won't do anything. Honestly, I'm not skilled in that technique as I don't wheel that way, I just give constant, steady throttle and let the TC do it's thing. So hopefully someone else will chime in how it's best done.
The braking under load was a trick used in the day to help convince mechanical limited slips to lock in.
8LIFGR8 4x4 at the moment you touch brake TC disengage instantly.
@@lowrange1486 , I know Toyota does this with ATRAC, I'll have to get in the dirt and test it on my Discovery 2. I'll bet you are right. In this example though you can see how much wheelspin is required to make the Disco 2 traction control kick in, it's not a very aggressive system. So using the brake-throttle technique at the beginning at a low RPM may have actually been superior to letting the TC kick in. It certainly wouldn't have hurt the Liberty.
I never really liked this technique back in the day anyway, in order to prevent snapping shafts you had to stop and then apply throttle with gentle braking force. It was all done by feel. Some people were really good at it. We just bought a locker instead... ;).
@@ForgottenWaypoints I read the D2 technical manual twice (don't know why but I did it) and I understand how SLABS ecu works. If brake force is applied (input from brake pedal is received) then TC/HDC is disengaged.
@@lowrange1486 , I stand corrected. Good find!
So part time 4WD with REAR DIFFERENTIAL IS BEST, NOT CENTER? THANKS.
Ideally, I would want a gear driven two speed full-time transfer case with all three (front, rear, center) diff locks selectable.
Personally, I find part time transfer cases (like a Jeep) less flexible. Not so much on the rocks, but in poor weather (snow, rain, etc).
But the best off road is mechanical lockers, great articulation, and steep gear reduction, it's why the Jeep Rubicon is so successful out of the box and as a buggy platform.
👍cool video
Save a ton of $$$ and just buy an ATV/SBS to go play on the rocks. Trust me it's much much cheaper, and in all actuality, it s even more fun. Been there done that. Good vid tho man.
It all depends on what you do. I'm going to eventually set mine up for Overlanding (on and off highway multi-day adventures), and SxS doesn't have the range or highway legality/speed. That's the biggest kicker for me right now. My last adventure (link below) was 140 miles off-road and it wasn't even round trip. If I had to do that in a side-by-side (round trip) it would have been over 200 miles just to "get back to the trailer", that's impossible in a single afternoon.
As for cost, it depends on how expensive your rig is. My discovery was $5k and I overpaid. I've never seen a used side-by-side in that range. Plus I take my entire family (5 people), so that means at least two side by sides are required.
Even if I did find a SxS, I'd need a truck and a trailer. That leaves a budget of $1,375 each for a Truck, Trailer, and two side-by-sides to equal the cost of my Discovery 2. In fact, the lifetime cost (4 years) of my Disco + repairs + mods + gas for the adventures is slightly less than the going rate of a single used side by side and still thousands less than a new one.
Every time I run the numbers, SxS/ATV is more expensive.
That said, they definitely have their place in the off-road community, and I hope to add a few to my garage for the
Sounds like you got off-roading down to a science brother. Awesome. Keep up the good work man.
JSmith: but you need a truck to tow the ATV to the trails so you ended up spending more money.
McTig: My point still stands because you end up spending a lot more money with the ATV. Most people don't have a place to park their toy hauler. Most apartment dweller only has one truck or one Jeep to do everything.
If my friends heard me saying this, they would tell me how much I sound like a broken record. But just go buy a Cherokee. It's way better than a SBS, cheaper, easier to modify, and you actually get doors and real seats, with storage space. The XJ is the best value going in off-roading today.
Strap? You strapped that Jeep? All you needed to do was throw a rock under there.
Yep. I'm confident we could have gotten the liberty up, but we had the group behind us in the LX that needed to get out and get a part for another rig and we didn't want to risk body damage to the Liberty. And you'd have laughed at how far we nudged it. Like 6 inches, and then it got over on its own power.
Yeah, the video was in no-wise a reflection of the capabilities of the 1st generation Liberty, a platform which we feel is vastly underrated.
Really would like to see JUST the rear locker engaged. (no 4WD)
In theory, it would have made it over, just like we could have gotten the Liberty over with a bit more speed. Most likely (in 2wd/rear locker) it would have spun a bit and slid to the right due to lack of traction in the front. This is something you would not want to have happen since that is where the drop off is. The only scenario where I've seen "2-lo" come in handy while rock-crawling was an old CJ7 we had and the front axle had a lock-right locker.
Since the transfer case had a 2-low option, we would use that to engage and disengage the front locker. It worked well, but for most people (and the typical stock transfer case, such as the TRD in the video) you'll already be in 4wd low range before you even get to this type of obstacle.
Not to mention, most (if not ALL) newer vehicles with factory diff locker(s) will not allow you to engage them in anything other than 4 low, and even then they only stay engaged up to a certain speed.
Michael Smith There are a handful of 2wd trucks with rear lockers. Wish someone would make a good video of just rear locker capabilities. Not as effective off-road as 4wd for obvious reasons, but a lot of added benefits you wouldn’t have on a 4wd.
Dylan McLernon yeah, selectable lockers are the way to go. Full-time lockers like that are definitely not ideal for the street. Those are really much more suited for a dedicated trail rig.
I don`t really like the traction control setup. In the cases that you need full power and momentum it is a limitation..
With the discovery 2 you just turn the car off with the CDL engaged, turn the car back on and BOOM: All of your ABS assist goes away and you are traction control free, just like the good ol' days.
That is indeed a nice feature!
There can be situations where traction control isn't beneficial because each time the breaks fire it can slow momentum. The 4Runner default in 4-low for A-Trac is off.
J1I9M7M4Y at least on the land rover the traction control system does not reduce engine power. I have a discovery II and it works so well I almost never have to engage the center diff lock. Its never slowed me down like I thought it would
That`s nice. I have a VW Amarok as a work car, and it is ABSOLUTELY useless! I was driving uphill and there was some snow on the road so the wheels started to spin. The traction control engaged and that was it.. Had to turn and disengage the tc so i could gain some speed and make a 2nd try. My Jeep WJ would have made it with racing slicks..
flex and wheel base does play a part....i think.
Agreed. We touched on wheelbase traps in our followup video on Hell's Revenge at the following link. We plan to do more vids on wheelbase/flex pros and cons in the future to.:
ua-cam.com/video/50HzDfO0134/v-deo.html
The Toyota didn’t notice anything. Just a normal road.
Jeep quadradrive II Would have cruised right over that.
It would have. The Liberty could have made it over with a bit more speed too (just enough to bounce it over the off-camber spot), but we didn't want to risk it with the edge off the driver side (you can't see it very well in the video).
If the Liberty also had even a limited slip, it would have pushed it over. The obstacle isn't that difficult, but the footage we captured was pretty good at showing the differences with traction aids.
i have a traklock cluched lsd in my rear and a eaton elocker in the front diff. i dont trust traction control computers to do the same thing with breaking that you do by physically joining shafts
I've actually found Traction Control a pleasant surprise vs clutched limited slips (Jeep stockers don't seem to last much past 60-80k miles). Now, compared to a torsen style like true Trac? That's another story..
Wonder how my brat would do , low cg super high ground clearance on tiny tires
Probably could have done it quite well since you are narrower and the wheelbase is probably just right too.
The challenge for the brat would be the rock garden just after...it was much bigger rocks than this, just not as off camber.
Especially since you don't have a low range AWD box, right? This is an incline and it's steeper later, we were all in low range for the last few miles. But anything is possible.
I think for 99% of the time for 99% of people a quality lsd like a torsen is the superior solution. Marketing like a lockers more though....
There are plenty of advantages to worm-gear style, like torsens and True-Tracs. I hope to install True-Tracs on my Discovery 2 in the future to discuss the pros and cons.
What I really like about the true-tracs is that they limit torque just enough to offer some protection to the relative weak stock axles of the discovery. When combined with traction control, the true-tracs lock up pretty quick and offer most of the advantages of a locker. But I have yet to test that theory.
why in the hell are these drivers needing a spotter for this? mind blown....
You really don't. It's not a "hard core" trail by any stretch. But there was a drop off to the driver side (can't really see it in the vid) and a rock on the passenger side (you can see that), and the goal was to get out with minimal damage.
Listening to a spotter is good practice. It was far more technical in nature after this spot, but a mistake was much more forgiving (so the Liberty could give it some throttle to overcome the lack of traction aids).
Nothing wrong with a spotter... Always best to play safe so you can wheel another day.
Two of the the drivers have decades of experience off road. I'm not sure about the third driver.
Our philosophy is to use a spotter if there is any concern. I truly believe it is better to use a spotter if the driver has any concern instead of just driving through.
What you can't see in the video is how narrow this actually was (it was washed out but that can't be seen), and you can't see the way the rear end wants to slide toward the rock and catch the rear quarter panel.
I was driving the 4Runner. It was an inch from the rock on the passenger side and only a few inches from the washed out area on the driver's side.
Could I have done this without a spotter? Sure, I do more technical climbs all the time. Could I do this and guarantee that I wouldn't hit my body panel or drop the tire into the hole you can't see with a precarious edge? Nope. The vehicle was new to me and I was still learning the size of the vehicle and the tire placement.
Model T would have cleared it, zero problem. SAS front end, Locked diffs on the rear. Traction control trans, Open top, removable doors, plenty of ground clearance, dub carbon rims. Full delete paint job.
I'd really worry about the black paint and the cooling system. At altitude, in the desert, at slow speed, under that kind of load, I would think you'd overheat before even your gearing became an issue. No?
Maybe on the highway, uphill in full sunlight, but I hadn't heard of that particular issue. Less parts are nice though on the trail. Less things to go wrong. Bummer to have a water pump go out.
Lessson of the day . Get yourself a Toyota
Not so fast....there wasn't a Jeep Rubicon in this comparo.. ;).
If they can barely make it over that first obstacle, they shouldn't even be on the trail in the first place.
Everyone made it over.
The liberty kinda struggled, and you mentioned pulling a strap lol
In defense of the Jeep Liberty (which is an excellent rig in its own right), it didn't struggle. We opted to take a strap so we wouldn't risk hitting the rear passenger quarter panel when taking the bump at speed since he was open diff'd.
We weren't there on a competition, but to get underneath the impressive I-70 span at Eagle Canyon. You really should go there if you haven't seen it. The trail isn't that hard. Rated a 3 or 4, depending on how washed out it is at the time you travel it.
Which system is the best?
Jason Carpp ,, it depends on what you like. For hardcore rock crawlers, the best is selectable front and rear lockers, so the Jeep Rubicon (especially with electronic swaybar disconnect is tough to beat. The Hummer H3 is a bit undderated, IMO, the later model Adventure Package has selectable front and rear lockers, DANA 44s front and rear, 4:1 Tcase that is AWD/Permenant four wheel drive, the only downside is that the front independent suspension can't flex like the Jeep can.
In the end, it depends on what you want to do with your vehicle and build to those targets. Eventually, I'd like to add True-Tracs (essentially Torsten-style limited slips) on my Discovery 2. The theory being the electronic traction control will pulse and engage the limited slips quickly and give me more control. Those that have them on Discos like them. The downside with selectable lockers on the D2, is that the axles are weak and the stress of the lockers requires you to spend money on expensive heavy duty axles. At that point; in my opinion, you should be looking at a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon at minimum instead.
I'm going to test my Discovery 2 without True-Tracs on Golden Spike and it will be a good test for the vehicle, considering I only have 32" tires and no full-time lockers. This trail is rated as a 7 (although I'll probably need to use some bypasses, I'm ok with that), and it represents the target "build" of my off-road performance. Once I can master that trail (and Moab Rim), I'm going to focus on Overland building, which is quite a different mindset from Rock Crawling builds.
If you liked the video, please subscribe. I'm going to add more content. My cousin in the TRD-Pro Toyota also owns and XJ that he's built VERY nice with 33" tires and selectable OX-Lockers, but he kept his lift small (cut the fenders to do so) in order to keep his center of gravity low. We intend to do some videos of his current build to show it off as well.
Thanks for the question!
Jason: Forget about all the ads from Toyota. Just get yourself a Wrangler Rubicon that have front and rear lockers and you are set. You can put more mods into the Rubicon to make it look cooler but the Rubicon is da bomb.
This is cool and all but a horse can beat these fools any day.
On foot especially
Especially if it's dead. You can't beat a dead horse.
That was a joke based on the idiom, "Don't beat a dead horse." I don't hate horses or anything.
Ok
2:01 will never happen with the new cherokee trailhawk...
Yup, you wouldn't even need the rear locker as ABS traction control would do just fine like the disco. In defense of the Liberty, it has nice off road angles and is easy to mod to cross obstacles like this.
@@ForgottenWaypoints yeah it just needs a front and rear limited slip and it would be fine. It would probably own my Cherokee... Still the problem with the Cherokee and the compass is it's difficult to put a bigger tires under them.... That's my biggest gripe.... I have a compass trailhawk too... I have the compass Trailhawk and the Cherokee Trailhawk
@@ForgottenWaypoints The stock 245 65 is a good size tire.... I think I could put a 265 60 on it without a lift... But I think that's about it.... There are grocery getter cars that have bigger tires than that.... GMC Acadia does for example....
@@ForgottenWaypoints someone did finally make really good off-road tires for the Jeep compass and Jeep Patriot falcon made some wild peak tires... And I don't mean the kind that came on the compass trail hawk.... I mean the real ones lol.... I just bought some of those and they're pretty darn good.... It's a wider treadway without getting a wider tire... A lot of people don't know that that's possible but it is... Tires are measured on section with not tread width.... And just by changing the type of tire that you have you can get an inch wider tread without changing the section with in some cases. That was true for these.
I am on my fourth 2.4 L Jeep.
I had a 2008 compass I had a 2015 Patriot I have a 2016 Cherokee Trailhawk and a 2018 compass Trailhawk...
And all of those cars are pretty much the same tire except for the Cherokee...
I was always disappointed I couldn't get a good tire but now you can... Like 10 years later... Hahaha..... There's a lot of 215 65 17 jeeps on the road thats for sure. "pizza cutters". Honestly and everyday driving it doesn't matter because the new compass is basically all wheel drive and no tires are never going to slide... Not in the rain anyway...
I love the new basically all wheel drive compass and Cherokee they are extremely good in the rain I drive in the rain every day in Alabama practically... They're extremely good severe weather vehicles.
The Cherokee Trailhawk has the rear locker, right? You'd go right through this. This trail has been maintained recently, and if this year's monsoons haven't done any serious erosion, the Cherokee Trailhawk should make this climb as easy as the 4Runner, even on factory size tires. Just pick the right line.
B.s. you can make it over that with just rear locker
Of course you can. I personally made it over without a rear locker. It's not a 7 rated trail.
Lol wtf my keep grand Cherokee can do this....
Do it. Walk the walk.
I couldn't drive a Jeep Liberty but I do own a Jeep. I'm also a huge fan of Toyotas. Having said that I think the brand of your vehicle is completely irrelevant even independent front suspension vs. Solid axle is not as important as having some sort of locking differential or traction system. if you don't have power to the four wheels, What business do you have being off the road? If you're getting into four wheeling fine be the guy that's always got to get pulled by a strap but if you doing this on the weekends please for the rest of us lock your differentials.
Puseram um pick up nova e uns carros velhos, é sacanagem né, fazem como os americanos poxa, põem GM pra competir com os da Ford, os RAM tudo do mesmo nível
3 letters atv
Just buy a Samurai or Toyota and invest 3000k and do circles around all of them!
Rice Man the video clearly states that one of them was a Toyota...
@@normp8389 He can't understand what T O Y O T A spells:-)
Land Rover Discovery AWD?????? (All Wheel Drive) WTF. All Range Rovers, Discoverys and Defenders are PERMANENT 4WD bro!!!! Good video but get things right hey...
Technically, the D2 is equipped with an LT232 helical geared transfer case with a center differential and low range gear reducer and if you are lucky it will have a diff-lock installed on it (which mine did an hooked up). Permenant 4wd and AWD are the same thing, it's semantics, some companies call it permenant, Jeep calls it "full time" and others call it All-wheel, but in the end it's the same, full time has a center diff, and part time does not.
Thee p38's diff is a viscous coupling, and later classics use a viscous coupling, but the older ones have the same LT232, which is highly desirable because of how robust it is.
Anyone who needs a spotter should not be on a trail.
Ha ha ha, thanks for the laugh.
I guess that means those participants in rock crawling competitions shouldn't be there either. They all have spotters...
Jonathon anyone who thinks like you has only four wheeled over a curb at the mall.