Jake, the consummate pro, developing a community of like-minded sleuths and armchair mountaineers interested in coming together to have a fascinating conversation about the greatest mystery in all of mountaineering in a welcoming, respectful forum. Thanks for keeping it positive, kind and transparent. Cheers
Thom, thank you my friend. It's so fun that we can still be a part of this fascination 24 years after 1999! And, I always love your spirit and desire to bring out good thoughts and ideas and keep the story and the discussion going. It never gets old, does it? Thank YOU for all you do, and let's talk soon - it's been too long as always!
Thom and Jake, 2 absolute legends in the story and history of Everest and Mallory. Thank you both for your efforts and advancing what we know about Mallory/Irvine and the 1924 Expedition.
Jake, the quantity and quality of work you’ve dedicated to this project is stunning. Thom, thank you for you kindness and for introducing us to amazing people.
you and jake are amazing men. thanks for all you guys do by keeping this mystery still alive after a whole century has passed. OH BTW M&I MADE IT DIED COMING DOWN…irvine lost his footing and fell dragging mallory with him mallory tried to cut the rope in time but couldn’t do it. eventually the rope jerked and cut by its self sending mallory few hundred feet and irvine maybe thousands of feet. my basis is irvines mistake cost mallory his life. i just wish he woulda took noel odell with him instead of a mountaineering novice.
Thank you so much for this tool. I've been a keen M&I enthusiast since I was a small boy in the 1970s. Whilst I am now organising a trip to the Rongbuk Valley to see Evereest, I know I'll never climb it now, so this tool is so important to me. Thank you
Hi Jake, thank you so much for your video and the creation of this project. I have been a M&I enthousiast for years but can't go to Everest. People like you keeping the search alive are essential to Everest fanatics such as me. I will definitely have fun with this map, what a great tool. Cheers !
Thanks, Maraisté. So glad you liked it, and that you are a fellow M&I enthusiast! Let me know what you think once you've been able to dig into it a bit. I'm planning to share another project in a bit that will go with this nicely I think. Thank you!
Jake- Thanks for the tremendous amount of research & and development you've put into this endeavor. I still go back to your videos of finding George Mallory & the old abandoned camps from prior decades. Seeing the gear & the stampings was absolutely fascinating! That must have been a fairly unbelievable expedition...
Thank you - much appreciated! Yeah, those early trips for me - and the ability to interact to some degree with the pre-WWII expeditions - were beyond a joy. Many fun adventures on the hill. Thanks again!
This is brilliant. Really appreciate the time it must have taken to put this all together, the new image angles work really well and it provides a great resource for those of us fascinated with the story. These camera angles also show how forbiddingly tough the terrain was that Norton, Smythe, Wager & Wyn-Harris found themselves halted by.
Thanks, Nelly X1X, much appreciated! I'm glad the new perspectives are beneficial, and I totally agree that they show the difficulty of the terrain one encounters traversing to and into the Couloir. Crazy! Thanks again, and be well!
great stuff as usual , nobody has searched as far as you on this beast , and nobody deserves more kudos for trying to find Andrew . I guess the mystery is preserved for all time . Take care and thanks for filling in the blanks for 20 years
Thanks, Gary, much appreciated! I don't know that I deserve any special kudos - just been lucky to get up there a bunch and poke around, and happy to share as best I can. Thanks again!
Watched the entire video and this is outstanding work, Jake! Thank you! About to go nerd out on your site for awhile. I appreciate the positivity and attitude about "being the best data you have, but being open to correction" as well. Very refreshing. You're a good, kind, intelligent yet humble man, Jake.
Thank you - greatly appreciated! It's been such fun to work on this story for so many years, and I really enjoy trying to put the pieces together and share them how I can. Glad you enjoyed it all, and happy "nerding out"!!
@@jake_norton After checking this out for awhile, I felt compelled to join your site as a member. I can't imagine how much time and effort this took. Also, membership has its benefits indeed! Love the Virtual Backpack! I'm hoping that by posting others will support your work. Easily worth it! Thank you, Jake!
Wow, thank you @digit3l ! I truly appreciate the support, and can't thank you enough. It's definitely a labor of love, and a lot of fun (most of the time) to keep going. Thank you again, and let me know what else would be helpful on the site!
This is AMAZING!! The time and effort and care that you've put into this is absolutely astounding, major kudos to you! Also it breaks my heart that there wasn't enough interest in the museum tour for the artifacts; personally I'd be over the moon for something like that to make a stop in my town!
Thanks, JS Lee, and glad you enjoyed it! And, I'm with you: the artifacts from our 2001 trip, while not ground breaking per se from the Mallory & Irvine standpoint, still were fascinating, and the Washington State History Museum who built the exhibit did an amazing job. Maybe someday it will come back out of hiding, although I always have images of the final scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" when I think about it. ua-cam.com/video/FRP0MBNoieY/v-deo.html
Thanks, Rolando. Yeah, the new drones can not only capture amazing imagery, but can fly higher and higher with more stability all the time. The challenge of course is (a) getting up there with a drone, and perhaps harder (b) getting permission to fly it from the Chinese government. But, hopefully these tools can help tell more of the story!
Hi Jake! It's great to see you here!! ❤️ I have the horrible feeling that poor AI is in the glacier below. From where GM was found, it seems like the answer to my mind.
Hi Jake, I really enjoyed the video, and I'm looking forward to investigating the "virtual" mountain, thank you for all your hard work. Thank you for explaining the reason for the inexact location of the O2 bottle you found (you were in a snowstorm w zero visibility!) The exact location of this O2 bottle is important because it is a major clue as to whether Mallory attempted the first step, or traversed below over the steps to the Norton Coloir. Would also love to hear your thoughts on Jaime McGuinness recent statements to Thom Pollard that Irvine is no longer on the mountain. Thanks for all your great material!
Hi, and thanks for the comment, Paul. Sorry for the delayed reply as well - obviously UA-cam is not my forte! Anyway, on Jaime's comments, I can't really say much with any authority as I haven't spoken to Jaime or Thom directly about it all. But, I think the whole question is sadly a gray area as we only have second and third (or more) hand accounts and whispers of a discovery and final location of Irvine's body, but that doesn't amount to much from a proof standpoint I guess. Personally, I think there's enough of a whisper that it may well be true he's long gone, but I still hold hope that he, or some evidence of the duo, remains to be found. Here's to hope!
Jake, ive always sat back, and listened! And the way you share, your opinons, thoughts, and videos, you've taken! I always learn something, or pickup on something different! Great Showing!! Thank You! And not to mention, all of your climbs, on that side of Everest! Hopefully, someday.... some new information, will come out! And who knows, maybe it might turn out, to be true! And maybe , the history books, might be changed? Thank You!!!
Thanks so much, Christopher, for the kind words, and glad you enjoy the videos and info! I love sharing it all, and it's been such an honor over the years to be able to be a small part of investigating and telling this story. Such fascinating history, to say the least! And, yes, hopefully someday we can rewrite portions of the history books! Thanks again, and be well.
Jake, I'm back, is there anything planned, for this year 2024 , anniversary, for a climb on the North? Like a summit? Im guessing, the search , is pretty much , searched out? With talks, of Irvine, possibly found , a long time ago, and discarded , down the mountain!
Great work as always Jake. Always positive. Always humble. I definitely appreciate that about you. Your work, on the mountain , on your website, & otherwise, are greatly intriguing & appreciated. For conversation’s sake, I was a bit displeased (bummed) about the effort from Mark Synnott while in his expedition. I’ve never quite understood the purpose of summiting the mountain first and then scour it on your way down. It just seems a bit self-indulgent to me. We all know the exhaustion sets in in the way down. It just appeared to be a half-hearted effort - with all due respects to Mark, whom I greatly admire. That said, he mentioned in an interview that he may go back to China and actually seek out the museum that may have viral Irvine information. Any word on that from Mark? Side note: Simone is a beast! I never knew you worked with him on Everest. That dude is awesome - and out there! Haha Finally, the big question for ya, are you ever going back to Everest to give the search another go? Drone work? Off the wall traversing? Appreciate you man! Cheers!
Thanks, Mike, I really appreciate it and you! I know what you mean about the NG 2019 search. I think there were a lot of challenges they faced as a team with their infrastructure, time, health, and directives from outside perhaps on narrative, etc. I think also for Renan and Mark climbing Everest was a bit more of a struggle than they imagined; it's just such a different animal than the epic climbs they have done before, and demanding in more and different ways. It was a shame Mark didn't get a chance to search more, as the area he was in was in better shape in 2019 than it was when I was in the area in 2004 and Jamie McGuinness was there in 2012. Yes indeed, Simone is a beast for sure! We were not climbing with him in 2012, but on the mountain at the same time, and when we were with him at BC and heard he was doing a heli recon of parts of the upper mountain, we asked if he could venture over far enough to shoot the Hornbein Couloir for us and the Diagonal Ditch. We had such nasty conditions below the West Ridge, we wanted to know what we could expect higher if we ever made it that far (which we didn't). So, he got the shots, and this one worked great for this purpose! As for going back, I don't have plans, but I never say never either. I'd go back in a heartbeat to scour the upper mountain some more, and try to peek around with drones as well. I still believe there's more up there to be found, but it gets harder each year to make a real search happen. We shall see! Thanks again, and be well!
Thank you for this content Jake. You were climbing mountains, I was fighting in the war on terror. Alas I cannot afford to climb Everest like yourself but do like to get out on the hills when I can and my knees will let me. I follow you, Michael Tracey, and Thom, as I love the 1924 mystery, but as far as boots on the ground go, I think you have by far covered the most area.
Hi kippamip, thanks for your comment, and thanks more for your service. Your time and dedication are much respected, and far more important than some guy like me waddling up a hill in Tibet. So, thank you again. Like you, I can't afford to climb Everest either; I've been lucky to always be hired to work on expeditions as a photographer or filmmaker, or have gone for free (having my way paid in exchange for my work) like in 1999 and 2001. It's insane how much these things cost, and had it not been my line of work, I doubt I would ever have gone to the mountain. Once again, thanks for your comment and your service, and take good care!
remember that worsted wool sock that was found in 2001? It had the initials E.N on it and we discussed the nature of wool down in basecamp. That was pretty cool, not to mention finding a label of Brand's Essence of Beef that was inserted in a rock cleft as well. By an odd coincidence, one of our big sponsors in 2001 was Brands Essence of chicken - the pre-war British brand totally being an Asian listed company by then. i think just touching that sock was amazing - the part it played in the 1924 climb... great memories. Thanks for the video and hope to see you again soon.
Thanks, Allan. Hmm, that's a good question. I definitely WANT to believe he is still up there, but I'm more doubtful these days than ever before. I do believe he WAS up there for a while, but am more and more convinced he was moved by the Chinese at some point in time. Certainly a shame if so, but I don't think that necessarily means the search is over, as we would not have to find Irvine per se to tell more of the story. Any evidence of them above the Second Step would be huge and telling, and any other items left behind could inform a lot more of the story. Thanks again!
@@jake_norton Too bad all the searchers and enthusiasts can't get along. I have watched all Michael Tracy's videos and his website information. He does a fantastic analysis, maybe someday he can tone down the vitriol and allow for a productive exchange of information.
Very nice, good job man. Are there any photos of the area where ice ax was found? Not far away shots of the mountain with arrows pointing to it but a local picture? I've looked many times and have yet to see that particular view.
Hiello Jake , thank you so much for your video. I also a M&I enthousias for since 1999 after you and the team recovered mallory.. my question is,, many scholars says if we could find mountain top stones in mallory or irvin's pocket it will be an evidance about thier mountain summit. but nothing recovered in mallory's body .other than missing ruth's photo? what you think about that? thank you
Thanks ED TV, and glad you love the story, too! Yes, the stones are an interesting idea. We didn't specifically look for rocks in 1999 - in hindsight we probably should have, but hindsight is always 20/20, right! Anyway, we did search pretty thoroughly, and I don't recollect any rocks/pebbles/stones in his pockets per se, although his whole body was awash with gravel that cascaded down for 75 years. But, I agree with Michael Tracy on one aspect of this: IF rocks were found that could be identified with certainty as having come from the summit ridge, that would have been strong evidence of a summit. But, alas, we didn't specifically look for them - we were doing a lot of things that day! - and thus did not find any. Thanks again!
@@jake_norton 🙏🙏🙏🙏thank you very much.. even since my chilhood dave hahn,condred ancher, politz and you were heros of mine.. i was wondered.. you are replying me..thank you again..hope you will solve the mystery🙂🙂 one last question please if you would not mind....sandy irvine's body literely should be near around mallory's body.lots of effort to search him with experiance climbers. but still it was unable .would you think different scenario happend on that day?
Thanks ED TV - much appreciated! On Irvine's body, I'm not sure where he might be. For years I thought he would be up in the Yellow Band somewhere, as I outlined in 2010 in a blog post on my site: jakenorton.com/what-really-happened-to-george-mallory-andrew-irvine/. But, these days I'm less certain. I think there's still a chance he was there for a while, but maybe was removed in the intervening decades. And, part of me also wonders if he maybe fell down below Mallory in the original fall and now is down in the Central Rongbuk. So hard to say!
Really enjoying your content and virtual everest stuff. Only suggestion I'd have is greater context with typical routes shown and scales as possible. Interested to know if after this you have a personal theory on where Mallory fell from? Also what lighting equipment did they have? From the sounds of things if they did make the top it would have been mid to late afternoon, suggesting a late descent, when would have it got dark and could they have made it back to Camp 6 before dark from the top?
I don't understand the heat over oxygen bottle #9. You have described how it was found and the reasons for the uncertainty of the location. It's identified approximate location is near the ridge in the vicinity of the top of the yellow band. This is not inconsistent with either a ridge route OR a Norton-Somervell traverse along the top of the yellow band to the Norton colour and a zig-zag route to the summit, possibly bypassing all three steps. There is also the 1924 mitten, further down. It might be possible to return to the site and get pictures and an exact gps. You found it once. It might be worthwhile to plot the positions of all the 1924 artifacts. Perhaps the plots should include a "circle of confusion" indicating a range of uncertainty.
Thanks, aeromodeller1. I agree, I think more has been made through "conspiracizing" the bottle than anything else. The general area does tell us a fair bit, and I'm not sure what additionally we'd glean from a precise, GPS location, Maybe something, but maybe not. It would be good to return and try to find the precise spot; I'd have to pick Tap's brain, as he found it (I was nearby) and Jochen's as well to nail the location. And, I like the "circle of confusion" idea with plotting the artifacts. Perhaps another layer on the map showing only the artifacts and their locations could be helpful?
Thank you. As for going up again... I honestly have no interest in the summit again; three times was more than enough! But, I would go up high again to tell more of the story of 1924, without question.
Thank you for this i will definitely spend some time studying it. In fact im going to that as soon as ive left this comment. Im very excited that this will improve my understanding of the geography.
Thanks, Mark! Let me know what you think once you've had a chance to dig in, and stay tuned as I'll hopefully add more content in the days to come, time allowing!
Add what was searched and found by the 1933 expedition. The Norton-Somervell and Zig-Zag routes should be searched. Locate John Noel's Eagle's Nest at 22,000 feet, 3 miles from the summit, from which he made telephoto videos of the summit. Ideally every object and event would be indexed with source references. Thanks for putting this together. My primary interest is in the photography of the 1924 expedition. Sandy's existing photos were not made with a VPK camera.
Thanks, aeromodeller1. Good suggestions all. I will add the 1933 ice ax find, as that is an important item of course. I probably should also add in Odell's rough sighting location, as well as the approximate locations of the supposed body sightings in 1960 (Xu Jing) and 1995 (Chhiring Dorje). As for routes, that would be helpful as well. What I might do is build a new "layer" for routes climbed and hypothetical routes in 1924. Do you think that would be a good way to do it? I could include all the historic routes (Messner 1980, Aussies 1984, Ershler 1984, standard route, etc.). Those could help with narrowing down places that have not seen much if any traffic since the pre-War era. As for the Eagle's Nest, I'm pretty sure I got there - or pretty close - in 2019 on a hike from Advanced Basecamp. If you go to the Virtual Mount Everest I created (jakenorton.com/virtual-mount-everest-tour-is-live/) and using the hamburger in upper left, navigate to "Eagle's Nest View" to see it. Again, the location may not be exact, but I think pretty darn close. Let me know what you think! Thanks again, and keep the ideas coming! I'll be sure to post again here when I get the updates made. Might take a few days though!
@@jake_norton Yes, a layer for routes climbed would be good. Maybe coded for difficulty. I expect the Chinese are cleaning up the mountain and preparing it for reopening, with quicker and safer routes, in a loop, one going up, the other down, sanitation and garbage removal. They want an attractive tourist attraction that will bring in lots of paying customers.
I enjoyed the video, thank you for doing it! I need to ask a question. In 2015, the earthquake altered the Hilary Step. Between 1924 and 1960, were their any seismic events that may have affected Norton's couloir, or any of the ridge route? Thank you Ed
Hi Ed, Thanks for your note, and glad you enjoyed it all! Good question re: earthquakes. It's one I have thought a lot about over the years, and yes indeed, there was a quite catastrophic earthquake of 8.0 on January 15, 1934. It leveled much of Kathmandu, and caused many deaths (likely far more than the 10-12,000 documented). And, of particular interest here, the epicenter was just 5.9 miles south of Everest, so quite close, and much closer than the 2015 quake (and it was stronger). So, quite conceivably this quake could have altered the upper mountain significantly, changing features across the north face. Sadly, we don't have detailed enough images of the Second Step, Couloir, etc. from before the quake to compare. You can read more about the quake here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_Nepal%E2%80%93India_earthquake
Hey Jake! Ive been following this for a while and it seems the location for Mallory's body is off to the side below the ice axe on your website while years ago it was noted as almost (not quite) directly below. Which is correct? Why does it differ? Thanks!
Thanks for the note! I'm not sure what you're referencing with data from "years ago," but I can say in the early years after the discovery we intentionally kept the location of Mallory's body vague to keep people from disturbing him more than we already had. In my "Everest Searches 1999-2019" project on my website, the location should be pretty accurate. Not exact, as I cannot line up the precise GPS data Dave Hahn recorded on May 1, 1999, with the photos (or at least I don't know how to!), but his location was roughly a handful of meters above the apex of an upside-down V - ^ - of gullies clearly visible just below where his location is marked. Hope that makes sense!
Your website and photo documentation is really phenomenal! It’s really too bad that Tracy has taken such a confrontation and frankly mean spirited stance against others who share this passion of what happened to M&I as he does make some compelling points.
Thanks, and agreed that Michael sadly does himself and his great research a lot of disservice by being so aggressive in his style. I try not to take it to heart, and instead glean the good out of his info and ignore the pokes. It's hard to do at times, but part of life I guess. Thanks again!
Jake, I’m thinking Mallory and Irvine tumbled off the mountain tied together . Irvine being heavier tumbled further down the mountain. The rope failed sometime during their fall. Look lower if you can.
Good thought, and quite probable. I think we (or maybe I should just say I) have always thought Irvine was still on the mountain because (a) I want to believe that and that he can still be found, and (b) the supposed sightings in 1960 and 1995 made it seem so. That said, I think it is entirely possible they fell together, and Irvine continued downhill below Mallory. Sadly, if that is the case, it is doubtful anything would ever be found, as he likely would have gone all the down to the Central Rongbuk.
Thanks, Elizabeth. It is one of the best books - mountaineering or otherwise - I have ever read. Enjoy it. Sadly, as you may know, Tom passed just this weekend at age 92. A huge loss. I just wrote a bit about him on my blog if you're interested: jakenorton.com/the-passing-of-a-hero-tom-hornbein-november-6-1930-may-6-2023/
Good job Jake! It would be nice to have a lengthy, or multi-part podcast by many of the relevant parties(such as yourself)and prominent researchers to flesh these questions and topics out even further. Unfortunately, there are those who want to control the narrative and make the decisions on what is topical and pertinent and what is considered improper methodology or even outright attempts at deception. Regrettably, many do not have the social and emotional development to engage in an honest discussion without it descending into a "pissing contest!" I'm reminded of Gene Roddenberry's characters of Spock and Bones in Star Trek. One was a slave to his emotions, the other tyrannized by excessive "logical analysis." Whereas Captain Kirk represented the healthy balance of the two. I think those metaphors are applicable to many of the people involved with the legacy and history of the Mallory and Irvine events. We have too many that are either Spock or Bones and not enough Kirk's. Anyhow, it will be interesting to see if there are any new revelations or "surprises" as 2024 approaches? Obviously, the Tibetan-side is closed for foreigners again this year. Hopefully, you won't wait another year to post again- lol! Thanks again Jake!👌
Did you not listen to his introduction. He said he didn’t want to engage in conspiracy stuff about who ever might be trying to control some narrative. Thats not verbatim but what I gathered.
Thanks, Ed. I think some sort of open discussion with whomever wants to join in would be good, and fun (sort of). It's weird, this digital world we inhabit, that makes it so easy for some at least to be a lost less civil here than they would perhaps be in person, and to conjure up a lot of negativity where none is needed. I guess it's part and parcel of our current reality, but not something I enjoy. That said, if we could gather a bunch of folks who want to discuss, dissect, and debate the story and the questions surrounding it, I think that would be wonderful. Count me in! Maybe we can get something like that going one of these days. Thanks, Ed, and take good care! And, I'll definitely work to post again before too long!
@Jake Norton & MountainWorld Productions Thanks Jake! Hope you are transitioning well with the grief from the loss of your mother as well. She raised a solid son! You always conduct yourself in an admirable fashion. Look forward to you posting again, whether it's here, or over at your blog as usual. Take care!✌️
Thanks for this info. Some of the best views of the areas that Mallory and Irvine had attempted in 1924. Very grateful and satisfied about the finding of Mallory and artifacts of his climb and death, though sad as it is, helps to satisfy some of their mystery. A couple videos related comments by Chinese mountaineers, privately mentioning of their finding Irvine, disposing of his body and taking the camera, finding the film latent images unable to be developed. They will not share this as it would embarrass them knowing they could have given the camera to an American film company who would believe they could have used unique processes to save the film images, where the Chinese blew it by trying themselves. We live in freedom to express ideas and live with embarrassment if we make mistakes in our trying to live and answer questions. The Chinese are not so disposed to share due to the embarrassment they would feel, from the world's negative feelings of what they did and will make certain lives more hurtful or even put in prison, if those in leadership hear that their secrets are shared openly by those who know what happened. I believe that Irvine is no longer where he died, having been moved to over the ridge and down the Chinese side of Everest and will never be found, if only by chance which is controlled mostly by the Chinese themselves. They would never allow any search over the ridge from where the ax and oxygen bottles were found, leading to near where Irvine had died above, where Mallory dies down below. That is what makes sense in my mind after seeing the many videos presenting different possibilities and why Irvine will never be found. Again thank you and the others for the effort in finding Mallory. That was something special.
Thanks for your comment and thoughts and insights. I agree about the Chinese; it is a shame that perhaps they did find Irvine years ago, plus perhaps the camera, and now all is for naught most likely. That is indeed a shame if true, and a massive loss. It would be great to get a straight, honest answer about it all, but I will not hold my breath for that outcome. Thanks again, and all the best from here.
I am but a person who was captivated by Mount Everest in my early teens. I did watch the Documentary from BBC 1999, and was so amazed at what you all were able to do. I’m not a climber, I’m lucky to be able to climb the basement steps to do the laundry 😂, but I’ve always been mystified by the Mount and the culture surrounding it. I do have one question. I haven’t come across anything else that mentions the photo that George had of his wife that he said if he did summit he would leave it there, and the photo wasn’t found on him. Was it left behind at another camp? Do you think he did summit and left it there? Can you refer me to any other resources?
Now hes found I guess there are more things to learn about the mountain and the top of a Glacier he fell on to , im amazed on a few things. One there seems to be very little snow on that glacier , 2 that that must be a spot for avalanches and oxygen bottle mistakes . 3 that that place you can see anything , whould love to know more about that geography
In my opinion, it's a personality flaw. He has done good work in digging up good details based on primary source material. But he has weird interpretations, and bad attitudes if you disagree with him..
@@dmbeaster I dont think thats all it is though. Jake, and others, leave a lot of questions unanswered where's the full footage of the mallory discovery? Why did they find 0, 1, or 2 pairs of gloves? Why do stories keep changing? Etc. Now they may just be the natural flaws of human beings but the fact that they remain unaddressed raises questions.
Thom changing his attitude and story is something Michael illustrates well. Thom seems to be saying he was in the group with Conrad that found GM - he wasn't, he was on the down downhill with faulty oxygen apparatus. He visited the body 2 weeks later. The lack of full data release in general is disturbing.
@@identifiesas65.wheresmyche95 What allegedly remains unanswered? The basic facts are that mountaineers took on a sleuthing task with no experience. They were ignorant about forensic practices. They were excited about finding something with no awareness of how to document things with the precision of an anthropologist or a crime scene examiner. Jake admits this. Later, more detail was sought that no one recorded at the time. People remember the small details differently. The motives of some may have tainted what they said later about events. Nasty and inappropriate hostility further affects what people say. There is no real controversy. Just egotistical people getting worked up about not much.
Thanks brt 123. I honestly don't know what to make of the stories about the Chinese finding Irvine and removing his body, etc. I don't discount it, but also don't necessarily believe it 100% either. There's long been so many whispers about that, but nothing ever truly concrete, and always it seems disputing narratives. Sadly, I don't think it would be beyond imagination at all to envision the Chinese in the 1970s being so concerned with their 1960 summit being discredited (remember, there were a LOT of Western climbers proclaiming there was no way they could have climbed it in 1960, so they were already on their back foot from day 1) that the pressure to dispose of any evidence showing someone else got there first could have been immense. So, I don't discount the possibility, as a lot of crazy things happened in China/Tibet in that era. But, again, I also don't believe it fully until there's a bit more concrete evidence other than second hand accounts. Maybe we'll know more one day!
Thanks, Bill. It does seem a bit low; not sure why, but most likely operator error on my part! Hopefully with the UA-cam volume maxed out and the volume on your computer turned up you'll be able to hear alright. Sorry about that!
I assume you're meaning the items from our 2001 expedition? Yeah, I wish they were out of storage and on display! The exhibit the team put together with the Washington State Historic Society was pretty impressive and comprehensive. Would be nice for it all to re-emerge!
Tracy has does great work is scrounging up primary source data. His interpretations regarding that data are not well reasoned. And he has conspiratorial or just derisive views regarding people who disagree with him. It's unfortunate.
Yeah, I'm with you. Michael has found some great info, but I think he takes some big leaps in interpreting that data, and perhaps bigger ones in his position on essentially everyone else discussing the story. From the beginning, there have been few hard facts and tons of assumptions, and that is just the way it is with a mystery I guess. To say "my assumptions are the right ones and yours are all stupid" is, well, stupid in my opinion, and ultimately counterproductive to the whole story. It's unfortunate!
Out of most climbers besides my heroes Mallory@Irvine, Sherpa Tenzing Norgay Edmund Hillary, you are one of my heroes in mountaineering! I respect you as a person and as a climber! I do also like Michael Tracy for his work as well. I don't always agree with everything he believes about the 24 climbing. Now what gets me a little bothered is how some individuals believe that the Chinese have Irvine's body! I think it's a conspiracy that had people buying the book and taking it at face value. Come on, none of the witnesses could ever provide hard evidence on sightings or proof they found Irvine! People want to believe he's been found and being kept secret! If that was the case why leave Mallory there and not Irvine? If they wanted to keep the secret that the Chinese found evidence that the 24 team made the summit first. All they would have needed was Irvines 📷! Look i love this story but the simple answer as to where Irvine's body lies is off the mountain. The pair were roped together and they fell, meaning Irvine went all the way off the mountain! It's sad as we all want the answer to whether they made the summit or not! I personally believe after being spotted at 12:50 they were on the way down. Why do you ask I say coming down? Well, all the evidence on Mallory points to that! I believe they fell after one in the afternoon! Look at the evidence performed on Mallory ⌚️ ⏱️ 🕛! I don't believe they made the summit there's just too much evidence for that! I do respect anyone's beliefs and know that you believe they made it! That's okay too! Just don't like the conspiracy theories either! I pray one day the mountain will give up its secrets! Mallory and Irvine are my heroes even if they never made the summit! Have a fantastic day Sir!❤
Thank you, Sage - I don't know that I belong even in the same sentence as Mallory & Irvine, Hillary, and Tenzing, but I appreciate your thoughts! Thank you! I agree with you mostly about the Chinese and Irvine. As I mentioned in a prior comment, I don't personally believe the story with any certainty that Irvine was found and removed years back. While there are stories purporting that, it seems the evidence is somewhat non-existent, and thus more rumor than anything else at this point. That said, given the climate in the 1970s in China/Tibet, and the fact that the Western climbing world seemed hell-bent on proving the Chinese team did not reach the top in 1960, I can see the government powers putting heavy pressure on removing anything that could possible discredit 1960 and/or show that someone else got there first. As we all know, it was a time of great craziness within China as a whole, and a lot of things were done that seem absurd and horrific, but made sense to leadership at the time. Anyway, I'm with you in not believing it completely. I see it as a theory, but one that needs some real evidence beyond send hand accounts and whispers. I for one sure hope it is not true for many reasons. And, you make a good point about why Mallory would have been left if they took Irvine's body down. Although, there are rumors that Mallory is no longer on the mountain, and that Irvine may have been there until the mid-aughts. Again, that's only if one wants to believe the stories. Ah, so much unknown still! Thanks again, Sage, and take good care, and keep the thoughts and ideas coming!
I think most individual people can indeed be good and at the same time organizations like the CCP and Disney can have their own agendas that prevent good people from doing and saying what they want.
Thanks Eric Clapton’s Robot Pilot (love the name, by the way). I agree that especially the CCP can apply some pretty strong pressure on people and create a different narrative than what may actually have happened in a given scenario. As for Disney, I have never worked with them, nor had much interaction with them, so can't speak to that aspect. But, I do agree overall that some of the media that has come out of this story - specifically films - could be distorted to one degree or another. Things happen in the edit room that often the participants have no say over. I know, for example, some of my words and wording in the 2019 Discovery program were taken out of context and not really what I said or was thinking, but they were used to make the point the network wanted to make. I simply had no say in it all. But, what I was getting at is that diving immediately, headfirst and headlong into the assumption of nefarious activity is, to my mind, completely unproductive. The individuals I know and have worked with - our 1999 team, 2001 team, 2004 team, and 2019 team - are honest and forthright, and the material put out there has been done with honesty if not always 100% accuracy. Hope that all makes sense, and thanks again!
@@jake_norton that’s really unfortunate that the editors were allowed to contort your words like that, but I guess when you sign a waiver or agree to be a part of a doc it’s really hard to have any say in how you are portrayed in the final product. So was the Nat Geo filming crew and the Disco crew totally different? I guess what I’m asking is was the team “working” for/with both media organizations?
Good question. No, we were totally separate expeditions, separate everything. We all knew/know each other, but kept the search aspects of our plans to ourselves, as well as plans in general. So, the NG team was working solely for NG, and my team was all with Discovery and, more specifically, Mak Productions, which put together the film. Hope that all makes sense!
Jake, the consummate pro, developing a community of like-minded sleuths and armchair mountaineers interested in coming together to have a fascinating conversation about the greatest mystery in all of mountaineering in a welcoming, respectful forum. Thanks for keeping it positive, kind and transparent. Cheers
Thom, thank you my friend. It's so fun that we can still be a part of this fascination 24 years after 1999! And, I always love your spirit and desire to bring out good thoughts and ideas and keep the story and the discussion going. It never gets old, does it? Thank YOU for all you do, and let's talk soon - it's been too long as always!
Thom and Jake, 2 absolute legends in the story and history of Everest and Mallory. Thank you both for your efforts and advancing what we know about Mallory/Irvine and the 1924 Expedition.
Jake, the quantity and quality of work you’ve dedicated to this project is stunning. Thom, thank you for you kindness and for introducing us to amazing people.
you and jake are amazing men. thanks for all you guys do by keeping this mystery still alive after a whole century has passed. OH BTW M&I MADE IT DIED COMING DOWN…irvine lost his footing and fell dragging mallory with him mallory tried to cut the rope in time but couldn’t do it. eventually the rope jerked and cut by its self sending mallory few hundred feet and irvine maybe thousands of feet. my basis is irvines mistake cost mallory his life. i just wish he woulda took noel odell with him instead of a mountaineering novice.
How can you talk about being “respectful “ after calling people “armchair mountaineers”. That just seemed very childish to me
Thank you so much for this tool. I've been a keen M&I enthusiast since I was a small boy in the 1970s. Whilst I am now organising a trip to the Rongbuk Valley to see Evereest, I know I'll never climb it now, so this tool is so important to me. Thank you
Awesome, I'm so glad you enjoyed it! When are you going to Rongbuk? Say tashi delek to Norbu, the abbot, for me!
Hi Jake, thank you so much for your video and the creation of this project. I have been a M&I enthousiast for years but can't go to Everest. People like you keeping the search alive are essential to Everest fanatics such as me. I will definitely have fun with this map, what a great tool. Cheers !
Thanks, Maraisté. So glad you liked it, and that you are a fellow M&I enthusiast! Let me know what you think once you've been able to dig into it a bit. I'm planning to share another project in a bit that will go with this nicely I think. Thank you!
Jake- Thanks for the tremendous amount of research & and development you've put into this endeavor. I still go back to your videos of finding George Mallory & the old abandoned camps from prior decades. Seeing the gear & the stampings was absolutely fascinating! That must have been a fairly unbelievable expedition...
Thank you - much appreciated! Yeah, those early trips for me - and the ability to interact to some degree with the pre-WWII expeditions - were beyond a joy. Many fun adventures on the hill. Thanks again!
@@jake_norton And the "watch your step" line, while staring at that ridiculous cornice on the ridge 😁
Ha, always have to keep some levity up there!
This is brilliant. Really appreciate the time it must have taken to put this all together, the new image angles work really well and it provides a great resource for those of us fascinated with the story. These camera angles also show how forbiddingly tough the terrain was that Norton, Smythe, Wager & Wyn-Harris found themselves halted by.
Thanks, Nelly X1X, much appreciated! I'm glad the new perspectives are beneficial, and I totally agree that they show the difficulty of the terrain one encounters traversing to and into the Couloir. Crazy! Thanks again, and be well!
great stuff as usual , nobody has searched as far as you on this beast , and nobody deserves more kudos for trying to find Andrew . I guess the mystery is preserved for all time . Take care and thanks for filling in the blanks for 20 years
Thanks, Gary, much appreciated! I don't know that I deserve any special kudos - just been lucky to get up there a bunch and poke around, and happy to share as best I can. Thanks again!
Watched the entire video and this is outstanding work, Jake! Thank you! About to go nerd out on your site for awhile. I appreciate the positivity and attitude about "being the best data you have, but being open to correction" as well. Very refreshing. You're a good, kind, intelligent yet humble man, Jake.
Thank you - greatly appreciated! It's been such fun to work on this story for so many years, and I really enjoy trying to put the pieces together and share them how I can. Glad you enjoyed it all, and happy "nerding out"!!
@@jake_norton After checking this out for awhile, I felt compelled to join your site as a member. I can't imagine how much time and effort this took. Also, membership has its benefits indeed! Love the Virtual Backpack! I'm hoping that by posting others will support your work. Easily worth it! Thank you, Jake!
Wow, thank you @digit3l ! I truly appreciate the support, and can't thank you enough. It's definitely a labor of love, and a lot of fun (most of the time) to keep going. Thank you again, and let me know what else would be helpful on the site!
Amazing work Jake. I'll spend alot of time going over all that info. Thanks for taking the time to put all this together.
My pleasure! Let me know what you think of it all!
Thanks for all your hard work Jake!
Thanks, Dean! Much appreciated!
This is AMAZING!! The time and effort and care that you've put into this is absolutely astounding, major kudos to you! Also it breaks my heart that there wasn't enough interest in the museum tour for the artifacts; personally I'd be over the moon for something like that to make a stop in my town!
Thanks, JS Lee, and glad you enjoyed it! And, I'm with you: the artifacts from our 2001 trip, while not ground breaking per se from the Mallory & Irvine standpoint, still were fascinating, and the Washington State History Museum who built the exhibit did an amazing job. Maybe someday it will come back out of hiding, although I always have images of the final scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" when I think about it. ua-cam.com/video/FRP0MBNoieY/v-deo.html
Thanks alot!
I´ve seen some pretty awesome drone footage, so there are new possibilities for searching in "dry" years
Thanks, Rolando. Yeah, the new drones can not only capture amazing imagery, but can fly higher and higher with more stability all the time. The challenge of course is (a) getting up there with a drone, and perhaps harder (b) getting permission to fly it from the Chinese government. But, hopefully these tools can help tell more of the story!
Hi Jake! It's great to see you here!! ❤️ I have the horrible feeling that poor AI is in the glacier below. From where GM was found, it seems like the answer to my mind.
Thanks, Laura. For sure, it seems like a quite likely/possible outcome. If he did, the chances of finding him are certainly slim at best.
Recent developments prove your fear correct. AI's foot and boot found on the Rongbuk glacier
Hi Jake, I really enjoyed the video, and I'm looking forward to investigating the "virtual" mountain, thank you for all your hard work. Thank you for explaining the reason for the inexact location of the O2 bottle you found (you were in a snowstorm w zero visibility!) The exact location of this O2 bottle is important because it is a major clue as to whether Mallory attempted the first step, or traversed below over the steps to the Norton Coloir. Would also love to hear your thoughts on Jaime McGuinness recent statements to Thom Pollard that Irvine is no longer on the mountain. Thanks for all your great material!
Hi, and thanks for the comment, Paul. Sorry for the delayed reply as well - obviously UA-cam is not my forte! Anyway, on Jaime's comments, I can't really say much with any authority as I haven't spoken to Jaime or Thom directly about it all. But, I think the whole question is sadly a gray area as we only have second and third (or more) hand accounts and whispers of a discovery and final location of Irvine's body, but that doesn't amount to much from a proof standpoint I guess. Personally, I think there's enough of a whisper that it may well be true he's long gone, but I still hold hope that he, or some evidence of the duo, remains to be found. Here's to hope!
Jake, ive always sat back, and listened! And the way you share, your opinons, thoughts, and videos, you've taken! I always learn something, or pickup on something different! Great Showing!! Thank You! And not to mention, all of your climbs, on that side of Everest! Hopefully, someday.... some new information, will come out! And who knows, maybe it might turn out, to be true! And maybe , the history books, might be changed? Thank You!!!
Thanks so much, Christopher, for the kind words, and glad you enjoy the videos and info! I love sharing it all, and it's been such an honor over the years to be able to be a small part of investigating and telling this story. Such fascinating history, to say the least! And, yes, hopefully someday we can rewrite portions of the history books! Thanks again, and be well.
Jake, I'm back, is there anything planned, for this year 2024 , anniversary, for a climb on the North? Like a summit? Im guessing, the search , is pretty much , searched out? With talks, of Irvine, possibly found , a long time ago, and discarded , down the mountain!
Great work as always Jake. Always positive. Always humble. I definitely appreciate that about you. Your work, on the mountain , on your website, & otherwise, are greatly intriguing & appreciated.
For conversation’s sake, I was a bit displeased (bummed) about the effort from Mark Synnott while in his expedition. I’ve never quite understood the purpose of summiting the mountain first and then scour it on your way down. It just seems a bit self-indulgent to me.
We all know the exhaustion sets in in the way down. It just appeared to be a half-hearted effort - with all due respects to Mark, whom I greatly admire. That said, he mentioned in an interview that he may go back to China and actually seek out the museum that may have viral Irvine information. Any word on that from Mark?
Side note: Simone is a beast! I never knew you worked with him on Everest. That dude is awesome - and out there! Haha
Finally, the big question for ya, are you ever going back to Everest to give the search another go? Drone work? Off the wall traversing?
Appreciate you man! Cheers!
Thanks, Mike, I really appreciate it and you!
I know what you mean about the NG 2019 search. I think there were a lot of challenges they faced as a team with their infrastructure, time, health, and directives from outside perhaps on narrative, etc. I think also for Renan and Mark climbing Everest was a bit more of a struggle than they imagined; it's just such a different animal than the epic climbs they have done before, and demanding in more and different ways. It was a shame Mark didn't get a chance to search more, as the area he was in was in better shape in 2019 than it was when I was in the area in 2004 and Jamie McGuinness was there in 2012.
Yes indeed, Simone is a beast for sure! We were not climbing with him in 2012, but on the mountain at the same time, and when we were with him at BC and heard he was doing a heli recon of parts of the upper mountain, we asked if he could venture over far enough to shoot the Hornbein Couloir for us and the Diagonal Ditch. We had such nasty conditions below the West Ridge, we wanted to know what we could expect higher if we ever made it that far (which we didn't). So, he got the shots, and this one worked great for this purpose!
As for going back, I don't have plans, but I never say never either. I'd go back in a heartbeat to scour the upper mountain some more, and try to peek around with drones as well. I still believe there's more up there to be found, but it gets harder each year to make a real search happen. We shall see!
Thanks again, and be well!
This is gonna be interesting . Thanks so much for putting it all together.
Thank you for this content Jake. You were climbing mountains, I was fighting in the war on terror. Alas I cannot afford to climb Everest like yourself but do like to get out on the hills when I can and my knees will let me. I follow you, Michael Tracey, and Thom, as I love the 1924 mystery, but as far as boots on the ground go, I think you have by far covered the most area.
Hi kippamip, thanks for your comment, and thanks more for your service. Your time and dedication are much respected, and far more important than some guy like me waddling up a hill in Tibet. So, thank you again. Like you, I can't afford to climb Everest either; I've been lucky to always be hired to work on expeditions as a photographer or filmmaker, or have gone for free (having my way paid in exchange for my work) like in 1999 and 2001. It's insane how much these things cost, and had it not been my line of work, I doubt I would ever have gone to the mountain. Once again, thanks for your comment and your service, and take good care!
@@jake_norton thank you. 👍🏼
Wonderful Jake thanks for sharing
Thanks, Paul, glad you enjoyed it.
remember that worsted wool sock that was found in 2001? It had the initials E.N on it and we discussed the nature of wool down in basecamp. That was pretty cool, not to mention finding a label of Brand's Essence of Beef that was inserted in a rock cleft as well. By an odd coincidence, one of our big sponsors in 2001 was Brands Essence of chicken - the pre-war British brand totally being an Asian listed company by then. i think just touching that sock was amazing - the part it played in the 1924 climb... great memories. Thanks for the video and hope to see you again soon.
Jake. Just curious, do you think Sandy is still high on the mountain?
Thanks, Allan. Hmm, that's a good question. I definitely WANT to believe he is still up there, but I'm more doubtful these days than ever before. I do believe he WAS up there for a while, but am more and more convinced he was moved by the Chinese at some point in time. Certainly a shame if so, but I don't think that necessarily means the search is over, as we would not have to find Irvine per se to tell more of the story. Any evidence of them above the Second Step would be huge and telling, and any other items left behind could inform a lot more of the story. Thanks again!
@@jake_norton Too bad all the searchers and enthusiasts can't get along. I have watched all Michael Tracy's videos and his website information. He does a fantastic analysis, maybe someday he can tone down the vitriol and allow for a productive exchange of information.
Very nice, good job man. Are there any photos of the area where ice ax was found? Not far away shots of the mountain with arrows pointing to it but a local picture? I've looked many times and have yet to see that particular view.
Thanks, Jeff. I have some from the general area from 2001. I'll try to share them in the project as I update it. Thanks!
Hiello Jake , thank you so much for your video. I also a M&I enthousias for since 1999 after you and the team recovered mallory.. my question is,, many scholars says if we could find mountain top stones in mallory or irvin's pocket it will be an evidance about thier mountain summit. but nothing recovered in mallory's body .other than missing ruth's photo? what you think about that? thank you
Thanks ED TV, and glad you love the story, too! Yes, the stones are an interesting idea. We didn't specifically look for rocks in 1999 - in hindsight we probably should have, but hindsight is always 20/20, right! Anyway, we did search pretty thoroughly, and I don't recollect any rocks/pebbles/stones in his pockets per se, although his whole body was awash with gravel that cascaded down for 75 years. But, I agree with Michael Tracy on one aspect of this: IF rocks were found that could be identified with certainty as having come from the summit ridge, that would have been strong evidence of a summit. But, alas, we didn't specifically look for them - we were doing a lot of things that day! - and thus did not find any. Thanks again!
@@jake_norton 🙏🙏🙏🙏thank you very much.. even since my chilhood dave hahn,condred ancher, politz and you were heros of mine.. i was wondered.. you are replying me..thank you again..hope you will solve the mystery🙂🙂 one last question please if you would not mind....sandy irvine's body literely should be near around mallory's body.lots of effort to search him with experiance climbers. but still it was unable .would you think different scenario happend on that day?
Thanks ED TV - much appreciated! On Irvine's body, I'm not sure where he might be. For years I thought he would be up in the Yellow Band somewhere, as I outlined in 2010 in a blog post on my site: jakenorton.com/what-really-happened-to-george-mallory-andrew-irvine/. But, these days I'm less certain. I think there's still a chance he was there for a while, but maybe was removed in the intervening decades. And, part of me also wonders if he maybe fell down below Mallory in the original fall and now is down in the Central Rongbuk. So hard to say!
Really enjoying your content and virtual everest stuff. Only suggestion I'd have is greater context with typical routes shown and scales as possible. Interested to know if after this you have a personal theory on where Mallory fell from? Also what lighting equipment did they have? From the sounds of things if they did make the top it would have been mid to late afternoon, suggesting a late descent, when would have it got dark and could they have made it back to Camp 6 before dark from the top?
I don't understand the heat over oxygen bottle #9. You have described how it was found and the reasons for the uncertainty of the location. It's identified approximate location is near the ridge in the vicinity of the top of the yellow band. This is not inconsistent with either a ridge route OR a Norton-Somervell traverse along the top of the yellow band to the Norton colour and a zig-zag route to the summit, possibly bypassing all three steps. There is also the 1924 mitten, further down. It might be possible to return to the site and get pictures and an exact gps. You found it once. It might be worthwhile to plot the positions of all the 1924 artifacts. Perhaps the plots should include a "circle of confusion" indicating a range of uncertainty.
Thanks, aeromodeller1. I agree, I think more has been made through "conspiracizing" the bottle than anything else. The general area does tell us a fair bit, and I'm not sure what additionally we'd glean from a precise, GPS location, Maybe something, but maybe not. It would be good to return and try to find the precise spot; I'd have to pick Tap's brain, as he found it (I was nearby) and Jochen's as well to nail the location. And, I like the "circle of confusion" idea with plotting the artifacts. Perhaps another layer on the map showing only the artifacts and their locations could be helpful?
Very good info. Thanks. Would you go up there again or are you done with Everest?
Thank you. As for going up again... I honestly have no interest in the summit again; three times was more than enough! But, I would go up high again to tell more of the story of 1924, without question.
Thank you for this i will definitely spend some time studying it. In fact im going to that as soon as ive left this comment. Im very excited that this will improve my understanding of the geography.
Thanks, Mark! Let me know what you think once you've had a chance to dig in, and stay tuned as I'll hopefully add more content in the days to come, time allowing!
Add what was searched and found by the 1933 expedition. The Norton-Somervell and Zig-Zag routes should be searched. Locate John Noel's Eagle's Nest at 22,000 feet, 3 miles from the summit, from which he made telephoto videos of the summit. Ideally every object and event would be indexed with source references. Thanks for putting this together. My primary interest is in the photography of the 1924 expedition. Sandy's existing photos were not made with a VPK camera.
Thanks, aeromodeller1. Good suggestions all. I will add the 1933 ice ax find, as that is an important item of course. I probably should also add in Odell's rough sighting location, as well as the approximate locations of the supposed body sightings in 1960 (Xu Jing) and 1995 (Chhiring Dorje). As for routes, that would be helpful as well. What I might do is build a new "layer" for routes climbed and hypothetical routes in 1924. Do you think that would be a good way to do it? I could include all the historic routes (Messner 1980, Aussies 1984, Ershler 1984, standard route, etc.). Those could help with narrowing down places that have not seen much if any traffic since the pre-War era.
As for the Eagle's Nest, I'm pretty sure I got there - or pretty close - in 2019 on a hike from Advanced Basecamp. If you go to the Virtual Mount Everest I created (jakenorton.com/virtual-mount-everest-tour-is-live/) and using the hamburger in upper left, navigate to "Eagle's Nest View" to see it. Again, the location may not be exact, but I think pretty darn close. Let me know what you think!
Thanks again, and keep the ideas coming! I'll be sure to post again here when I get the updates made. Might take a few days though!
@@jake_norton Yes, a layer for routes climbed would be good. Maybe coded for difficulty. I expect the Chinese are cleaning up the mountain and preparing it for reopening, with quicker and safer routes, in a loop, one going up, the other down, sanitation and garbage removal. They want an attractive tourist attraction that will bring in lots of paying customers.
I enjoyed the video, thank you for doing it!
I need to ask a question.
In 2015, the earthquake altered the Hilary Step. Between 1924 and 1960, were their any seismic events that may have affected Norton's couloir, or any of the ridge route?
Thank you
Ed
Hi Ed, Thanks for your note, and glad you enjoyed it all! Good question re: earthquakes. It's one I have thought a lot about over the years, and yes indeed, there was a quite catastrophic earthquake of 8.0 on January 15, 1934. It leveled much of Kathmandu, and caused many deaths (likely far more than the 10-12,000 documented). And, of particular interest here, the epicenter was just 5.9 miles south of Everest, so quite close, and much closer than the 2015 quake (and it was stronger). So, quite conceivably this quake could have altered the upper mountain significantly, changing features across the north face. Sadly, we don't have detailed enough images of the Second Step, Couloir, etc. from before the quake to compare. You can read more about the quake here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_Nepal%E2%80%93India_earthquake
Hey Jake! Ive been following this for a while and it seems the location for Mallory's body is off to the side below the ice axe on your website while years ago it was noted as almost (not quite) directly below. Which is correct? Why does it differ?
Thanks!
Thanks for the note! I'm not sure what you're referencing with data from "years ago," but I can say in the early years after the discovery we intentionally kept the location of Mallory's body vague to keep people from disturbing him more than we already had. In my "Everest Searches 1999-2019" project on my website, the location should be pretty accurate. Not exact, as I cannot line up the precise GPS data Dave Hahn recorded on May 1, 1999, with the photos (or at least I don't know how to!), but his location was roughly a handful of meters above the apex of an upside-down V - ^ - of gullies clearly visible just below where his location is marked. Hope that makes sense!
Your website and photo documentation is really phenomenal! It’s really too bad that Tracy has taken such a confrontation and frankly mean spirited stance against others who share this passion of what happened to M&I as he does make some compelling points.
Thanks, and agreed that Michael sadly does himself and his great research a lot of disservice by being so aggressive in his style. I try not to take it to heart, and instead glean the good out of his info and ignore the pokes. It's hard to do at times, but part of life I guess. Thanks again!
Thank you for the information!
Jake, I’m thinking Mallory and Irvine tumbled off the mountain tied together . Irvine being heavier tumbled further down the mountain. The rope failed sometime during their fall. Look lower if you can.
Good thought, and quite probable. I think we (or maybe I should just say I) have always thought Irvine was still on the mountain because (a) I want to believe that and that he can still be found, and (b) the supposed sightings in 1960 and 1995 made it seem so. That said, I think it is entirely possible they fell together, and Irvine continued downhill below Mallory. Sadly, if that is the case, it is doubtful anything would ever be found, as he likely would have gone all the down to the Central Rongbuk.
This tool is great. I'd love to see where Irvine's boot discovery lands on the map.
I just started reading Thomas Horn bein's book about the 1963 expedition up the West Ridge.
Thanks, Elizabeth. It is one of the best books - mountaineering or otherwise - I have ever read. Enjoy it. Sadly, as you may know, Tom passed just this weekend at age 92. A huge loss. I just wrote a bit about him on my blog if you're interested: jakenorton.com/the-passing-of-a-hero-tom-hornbein-november-6-1930-may-6-2023/
Good job Jake!
It would be nice to have a lengthy, or multi-part podcast by many of the relevant parties(such as yourself)and prominent researchers to flesh these questions and topics out even further. Unfortunately, there are those who want to control the narrative and make the decisions on what is topical and pertinent and what is considered improper methodology or even outright attempts at deception. Regrettably, many do not have the social and emotional development to engage in an honest discussion without it descending into a "pissing contest!"
I'm reminded of Gene Roddenberry's characters of Spock and Bones in Star Trek. One was a slave to his emotions, the other tyrannized by excessive "logical analysis." Whereas Captain Kirk represented the healthy balance of the two. I think those metaphors are applicable to many of the people involved with the legacy and history of the Mallory and Irvine events. We have too many that are either Spock or Bones and not enough Kirk's.
Anyhow, it will be interesting to see if there are any new revelations or "surprises" as 2024 approaches? Obviously, the Tibetan-side is closed for foreigners again this year. Hopefully, you won't wait another year to post again- lol! Thanks again Jake!👌
Did you not listen to his introduction. He said he didn’t want to engage in conspiracy stuff about who ever might be trying to control some narrative. Thats not verbatim but what I gathered.
Thanks, Ed. I think some sort of open discussion with whomever wants to join in would be good, and fun (sort of). It's weird, this digital world we inhabit, that makes it so easy for some at least to be a lost less civil here than they would perhaps be in person, and to conjure up a lot of negativity where none is needed. I guess it's part and parcel of our current reality, but not something I enjoy.
That said, if we could gather a bunch of folks who want to discuss, dissect, and debate the story and the questions surrounding it, I think that would be wonderful. Count me in! Maybe we can get something like that going one of these days.
Thanks, Ed, and take good care! And, I'll definitely work to post again before too long!
@Jake Norton & MountainWorld Productions Thanks Jake! Hope you are transitioning well with the grief from the loss of your mother as well. She raised a solid son! You always conduct yourself in an admirable fashion. Look forward to you posting again, whether it's here, or over at your blog as usual. Take care!✌️
Thanks for this info. Some of the best views of the areas that Mallory and Irvine had attempted in 1924. Very grateful and satisfied about the finding of Mallory and artifacts of his climb and death, though sad as it is, helps to satisfy some of their mystery. A couple videos related comments by Chinese mountaineers, privately mentioning of their finding Irvine, disposing of his body and taking the camera, finding the film latent images unable to be developed. They will not share this as it would embarrass them knowing they could have given the camera to an American film company who would believe they could have used unique processes to save the film images, where the Chinese blew it by trying themselves. We live in freedom to express ideas and live with embarrassment if we make mistakes in our trying to live and answer questions. The Chinese are not so disposed to share due to the embarrassment they would feel, from the world's negative feelings of what they did and will make certain lives more hurtful or even put in prison, if those in leadership hear that their secrets are shared openly by those who know what happened. I believe that Irvine is no longer where he died, having been moved to over the ridge and down the Chinese side of Everest and will never be found, if only by chance which is controlled mostly by the Chinese themselves. They would never allow any search over the ridge from where the ax and oxygen bottles were found, leading to near where Irvine had died above, where Mallory dies down below. That is what makes sense in my mind after seeing the many videos presenting different possibilities and why Irvine will never be found. Again thank you and the others for the effort in finding Mallory. That was something special.
Thanks for your comment and thoughts and insights. I agree about the Chinese; it is a shame that perhaps they did find Irvine years ago, plus perhaps the camera, and now all is for naught most likely. That is indeed a shame if true, and a massive loss. It would be great to get a straight, honest answer about it all, but I will not hold my breath for that outcome. Thanks again, and all the best from here.
I am but a person who was captivated by Mount Everest in my early teens. I did watch the Documentary from BBC 1999, and was so amazed at what you all were able to do. I’m not a climber, I’m lucky to be able to climb the basement steps to do the laundry 😂, but I’ve always been mystified by the Mount and the culture surrounding it. I do have one question. I haven’t come across anything else that mentions the photo that George had of his wife that he said if he did summit he would leave it there, and the photo wasn’t found on him. Was it left behind at another camp? Do you think he did summit and left it there? Can you refer me to any other resources?
Now hes found I guess there are more things to learn about the mountain and the top of a Glacier he fell on to , im amazed on a few things. One there seems to be very little snow on that glacier , 2 that that must be a spot for avalanches and oxygen bottle mistakes . 3 that that place you can see anything , whould love to know more about that geography
This is awesome! I want to go to Everest.
Thanks, Kirk. You should go! Amazing place, mountain, and history!
... thanks a lot for all your work ...
OK Jake what is that square feature right of Mallory body, it looks to square to be natural.
Why is Michael Tracy obsessed with crapping on you and Thom? Great work. Appreciate you making this!
In my opinion, it's a personality flaw. He has done good work in digging up good details based on primary source material. But he has weird interpretations, and bad attitudes if you disagree with him..
@@dmbeaster I dont think thats all it is though. Jake, and others, leave a lot of questions unanswered where's the full footage of the mallory discovery? Why did they find 0, 1, or 2 pairs of gloves? Why do stories keep changing? Etc. Now they may just be the natural flaws of human beings but the fact that they remain unaddressed raises questions.
Let me know when Tracy has climbed the nonexistent Zig Zag route.@@identifiesas65.wheresmyche95
Thom changing his attitude and story is something Michael illustrates well. Thom seems to be saying he was in the group with Conrad that found GM - he wasn't, he was on the down downhill with faulty oxygen apparatus. He visited the body 2 weeks later. The lack of full data release in general is disturbing.
@@identifiesas65.wheresmyche95 What allegedly remains unanswered?
The basic facts are that mountaineers took on a sleuthing task with no experience. They were ignorant about forensic practices. They were excited about finding something with no awareness of how to document things with the precision of an anthropologist or a crime scene examiner. Jake admits this.
Later, more detail was sought that no one recorded at the time. People remember the small details differently. The motives of some may have tainted what they said later about events. Nasty and inappropriate hostility further affects what people say.
There is no real controversy. Just egotistical people getting worked up about not much.
What are your thoughts on the Chinese finding the camera in the 1960s but couldn't develop the film and it's supposed to be in a museum in China
Thanks brt 123. I honestly don't know what to make of the stories about the Chinese finding Irvine and removing his body, etc. I don't discount it, but also don't necessarily believe it 100% either. There's long been so many whispers about that, but nothing ever truly concrete, and always it seems disputing narratives. Sadly, I don't think it would be beyond imagination at all to envision the Chinese in the 1970s being so concerned with their 1960 summit being discredited (remember, there were a LOT of Western climbers proclaiming there was no way they could have climbed it in 1960, so they were already on their back foot from day 1) that the pressure to dispose of any evidence showing someone else got there first could have been immense. So, I don't discount the possibility, as a lot of crazy things happened in China/Tibet in that era. But, again, I also don't believe it fully until there's a bit more concrete evidence other than second hand accounts. Maybe we'll know more one day!
Volume is very low.
Thanks, Bill. It does seem a bit low; not sure why, but most likely operator error on my part! Hopefully with the UA-cam volume maxed out and the volume on your computer turned up you'll be able to hear alright. Sorry about that!
Jesus wept
Great videio , thanks
Thanks LifesaHobby!
Identify the principal landmarks, such as the First, Second and Third Steps.
Good suggestion, and thanks! Maybe that should be another layer as well that can be toggled on and off?
@@jake_norton Yes, a basemap. Might add topo lines to show the lay of the land, which way something would fall or where it might have fallen from.
Brilliant. Thankyou. I thought it was just me re Mr Tracy's attitude.
How could they not put the historic things in the Smithsonian 😮 its just in storage. I would have loved to see that😢
I assume you're meaning the items from our 2001 expedition? Yeah, I wish they were out of storage and on display! The exhibit the team put together with the Washington State Historic Society was pretty impressive and comprehensive. Would be nice for it all to re-emerge!
Tracy has does great work is scrounging up primary source data. His interpretations regarding that data are not well reasoned. And he has conspiratorial or just derisive views regarding people who disagree with him. It's unfortunate.
Yeah, I'm with you. Michael has found some great info, but I think he takes some big leaps in interpreting that data, and perhaps bigger ones in his position on essentially everyone else discussing the story. From the beginning, there have been few hard facts and tons of assumptions, and that is just the way it is with a mystery I guess. To say "my assumptions are the right ones and yours are all stupid" is, well, stupid in my opinion, and ultimately counterproductive to the whole story. It's unfortunate!
Out of most climbers besides my heroes Mallory@Irvine, Sherpa Tenzing Norgay Edmund Hillary, you are one of my heroes in mountaineering! I respect you as a person and as a climber! I do also like Michael Tracy for his work as well. I don't always agree with everything he believes about the 24 climbing. Now what gets me a little bothered is how some individuals believe that the Chinese have Irvine's body! I think it's a conspiracy that had people buying the book and taking it at face value. Come on, none of the witnesses could ever provide hard evidence on sightings or proof they found Irvine! People want to believe he's been found and being kept secret! If that was the case why leave Mallory there and not Irvine? If they wanted to keep the secret that the Chinese found evidence that the 24 team made the summit first. All they would have needed was Irvines 📷! Look i love this story but the simple answer as to where Irvine's body lies is off the mountain. The pair were roped together and they fell, meaning Irvine went all the way off the mountain! It's sad as we all want the answer to whether they made the summit or not! I personally believe after being spotted at 12:50 they were on the way down. Why do you ask I say coming down? Well, all the evidence on Mallory points to that! I believe they fell after one in the afternoon! Look at the evidence performed on Mallory ⌚️ ⏱️ 🕛! I don't believe they made the summit there's just too much evidence for that! I do respect anyone's beliefs and know that you believe they made it! That's okay too! Just don't like the conspiracy theories either! I pray one day the mountain will give up its secrets! Mallory and Irvine are my heroes even if they never made the summit! Have a fantastic day Sir!❤
Thank you, Sage - I don't know that I belong even in the same sentence as Mallory & Irvine, Hillary, and Tenzing, but I appreciate your thoughts! Thank you!
I agree with you mostly about the Chinese and Irvine. As I mentioned in a prior comment, I don't personally believe the story with any certainty that Irvine was found and removed years back. While there are stories purporting that, it seems the evidence is somewhat non-existent, and thus more rumor than anything else at this point. That said, given the climate in the 1970s in China/Tibet, and the fact that the Western climbing world seemed hell-bent on proving the Chinese team did not reach the top in 1960, I can see the government powers putting heavy pressure on removing anything that could possible discredit 1960 and/or show that someone else got there first. As we all know, it was a time of great craziness within China as a whole, and a lot of things were done that seem absurd and horrific, but made sense to leadership at the time.
Anyway, I'm with you in not believing it completely. I see it as a theory, but one that needs some real evidence beyond send hand accounts and whispers. I for one sure hope it is not true for many reasons. And, you make a good point about why Mallory would have been left if they took Irvine's body down. Although, there are rumors that Mallory is no longer on the mountain, and that Irvine may have been there until the mid-aughts. Again, that's only if one wants to believe the stories. Ah, so much unknown still!
Thanks again, Sage, and take good care, and keep the thoughts and ideas coming!
I think most individual people can indeed be good and at the same time organizations like the CCP and Disney can have their own agendas that prevent good people from doing and saying what they want.
Thanks Eric Clapton’s Robot Pilot (love the name, by the way). I agree that especially the CCP can apply some pretty strong pressure on people and create a different narrative than what may actually have happened in a given scenario. As for Disney, I have never worked with them, nor had much interaction with them, so can't speak to that aspect. But, I do agree overall that some of the media that has come out of this story - specifically films - could be distorted to one degree or another. Things happen in the edit room that often the participants have no say over. I know, for example, some of my words and wording in the 2019 Discovery program were taken out of context and not really what I said or was thinking, but they were used to make the point the network wanted to make. I simply had no say in it all. But, what I was getting at is that diving immediately, headfirst and headlong into the assumption of nefarious activity is, to my mind, completely unproductive. The individuals I know and have worked with - our 1999 team, 2001 team, 2004 team, and 2019 team - are honest and forthright, and the material put out there has been done with honesty if not always 100% accuracy. Hope that all makes sense, and thanks again!
@@jake_norton that’s really unfortunate that the editors were allowed to contort your words like that, but I guess when you sign a waiver or agree to be a part of a doc it’s really hard to have any say in how you are portrayed in the final product.
So was the Nat Geo filming crew and the Disco crew totally different? I guess what I’m asking is was the team “working” for/with both media organizations?
Good question. No, we were totally separate expeditions, separate everything. We all knew/know each other, but kept the search aspects of our plans to ourselves, as well as plans in general. So, the NG team was working solely for NG, and my team was all with Discovery and, more specifically, Mak Productions, which put together the film. Hope that all makes sense!
Good stuff
You got some great hair for your age
I imagine the two lower dots on the map mark a great fall if you fell around there...Great job!!
Yes, a fall would not be a pleasant one, but certainly would be a final one!