Lost on Everest: The Mystery of Mallory & Irvine Livestream
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- Опубліковано 19 сер 2024
- On June 8, 1924, at 12:50 PM, two tiny figures were seen less than a thousand feet from the summit of Mount Everest. It was George Mallory and Andrew Irvine moving toward the top, hoping to become the first people to reach the highest summit on Earth. But they soon vanished in the clouds and reappeared only in the pages of history: Mallory & Irvine were never seen alive again. Their disappearance sparked what is now a 100-year mystery: Did they reach the summit of Everest on June 8, 1924, 29 years before Hillary and Tenzing climbed from the Nepal side?
On May 1, 1999, Jake Norton was a climber and photographer on the team that discovered Mallory's remains at nearly 27,000 feet on the North Face. While their discovery yielded much new information and artifacts about the duo's final days and hours on the mountain, it did not answer the perennial question about the summit. Jake returned to the mountain on dedicated research expeditions in 2001, 2004, and 2019, discovering new information, artifacts, and more, but still no answers, no certainty.
In this livestream presentation, Jake will take you through the story of Mallory and Irvine, their climb of the mountain, their disappearance, and what may finally have befallen them on that fateful day nearly a century ago. He also reflects on whether the central question in their story is even the right one to be asking in the first place.
Jake, well done. I first read of Mallory and Irvine back in 1984 as an eighth grader in middle school. Even though i never embarked on a mountaineering expedition, I was forever changed and inspired by the story of Mallory and Irvine. Then in 1999, when news broke of the discovery of Mallory's body, once again i became enchanted by their mystique. My path led me, not to the high hills of the Himalayas, but to the competitive powerlifting platform. As I trained, i often imagined Mallory and Irvine struggling with every ounce of their being in the high frozen air of the jet stream, resolute to make the summit. I think for many of us, their legacy is that they have inspired us to commit ourselves totally to an objective, and then exhausting every resource to achieve it. I've been a fan of yours for a long time. Thank you for your humility and your insights from the top of the world. Too bad a movie could not have been made to commemorate the 100 year anniversary so that more people could have been inspired.
Thanks, Steve - much appreciated! And love that you have such a long history with the Mallory & Irvine story! It is a captivating one for sure. And, I've gotta say...WOW! Unreal your videos of powerlifting. Man, my entire body hurts just watching it. Amazing, and my hat's off to you! I, too, wish a film had been made this year, and am fairly surprised nothing came to fruition. One day, hopefully!
Jake, kind of off topic, but do you foresee any expeditions in the future to repeat the west ridge, complete northeast ridge, or even the fantasy ridge which is yet to be climbed? you would think with the overcrowding on the southeast ridge route in particular, there would be more interest among elite climbers in knocking off these more difficult routes.
What a fantastic broadcast! I had never seen such an interactive presentation of the possible routes M&I may have taken.
Hi all, thanks for watching and for the comments! Lots to work through, but I'll start replying as best I can going oldest-newest. Thank you!
Brilliant presenration Jake. As a nonclimber but a lover of history, you guys have captured my imagination with all these thoughts and theories. I really hope they made it, it would be a romantic ending to a tragic story.
Most climbers die on the way down.
My grandfather was convinced GM made it to the top. 70 years later, I still believe him 🙂
Hi Jake Yes you should do another one. I find all this information extremely fascinating. I can't get enough of the different aspects and opinions about Mallory and Irvine. I hope they made it. I don't think the Chinese have any bodies. Hope somebody has the camera, if it ever existed. Thanks again and for sure do another one.
More about Mallory ua-cam.com/video/_alNnOQkbHE/v-deo.htmlsi=uW9Xx5gs6TWyQ75f
Thanks, Peggy! Will plan on another one sometime soon. Thanks!
Just finished Mick Conefreys book and came across this awesome presentation, fascinating stuff!
Hi Jake, I would love to hear more from you in Mallory and Irvine. Thank you for a great presentation.
Thanks, Paul! I'll try to do another stream soon.
Man, this was great!!! Thank you! I’m actually surprised they haven’t made a movie about this. I think they made it. With determination everything is possible. And if you are risk taker, you will take your chances. I would love to see another video on future searches. Again, thank you.
Director Doug Limon was all set to make a M&E movie w Ian McGregor a few years back, but then it was quietly cancelled. I believe it became a casualty if the pandemic. I was so looking forward to it!
Try The Wildest Dream [2010] and enjoy.......
Yeah, I'm with you. Such great material for a big film without need to make anything up - it's all there. But, Hollywood dances to its own mercurial drumbeat it seems!
@@jake_norton quite haunting with all Natasha Richardson & Liam Neeson thing. Two pairs of people, two tragic stories...
@@andrazfaganel4307 The Wildest Dream was very good, especially Anker free scaling the second step. If legit, (done in one try) awesome.
I've watched Finding George Mallory probably 10 times. The sound in your voice when you read the tag on his shirt and your red mittens gave me goosebumps. I can't imagine being a part of that team. Have climbed K2?
I get the goosebumps too!
Ha, that makes three of us getting goosebumps! I do every time as well that I see those clips and wander back in time mentally. Glad you enjoyed it all! As for K2, no, sadly, almost went to the North Ridge a decade ago, but then permits didn't work out unfortunately. Thank you!
I'm sorry to hear you didn't make K2! Love listening to your stories!
Great stuff Jake, you should by all means do another stream. Looking forward to it. Blessings 🙌🏼 🙏🏼
Thank you, and will plan on another one!
I'm not a mountaineer but I have read and listened to a lot on this subject. Very well done!! Thank you!!!
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed!
Thanks for putting this together, still lots to unpack. Looking forward to next session.
Thank you! This mountain and every story that comes from it is so beautiful and fascinating to me! Please share more 😊
Thank you! Will do!
Jake, great telling! And showing!! I sat here quietly, ( in the middle of the night ) watching and listening! Learning! Absolutely, loved it!! Thank you! Pretty cool, leaving that picture!! Behind you, resting upwards, on the floor, in your room, is that an ( old ) oxygen cylinder? And yes!! More streams!
Brilliant, fascinating, thoroughly enjoyable and expertly presented. Thank you Jake! I also think they summited. Mallory was an expert climber, cat-like I believe. I think he got up the 2nd step before O'Dell spotted them at the base of the final 'pyramid'. He was fast and determined that day. I also think he was missing the photo of his wife for a reason. Regardless, that they were spotted within touching distance of the summit is incredible considering the era and equipment. So it's their summit in my mind, not Hillary's.
I believe it was a letter, not a photo, which he wrote about to his wife.
Thanks, Rob. So glad you enjoyed the presentation, and like you I believe they made it - no facts to support that belief, but still believe it! That said, Tenzing and Hillary still get credit for the first as they made the round trip. Thanks again!
Wow ,I could listen all day. I thought I knew everything about this . I learned a lot. I hope you do some more. Thanks for your time
Thank you, and glad you learned some new things!
Darn, I had to miss the live because I had a family reunion today and it took about 80% of my day! (lots of prep, driving hour and half to reunion and back, and of course having to talk and communicate with distant cousins for hours 😆). I am going to watch now, thank you!!!!!!
Thanks, Lynn, family is definitely more important! Hope you enjoyed the replay, and maybe you can catch the next one!
Very listenable and well presented.
Thanks for sharing!!! This is my favorite mystery.
Enjoyed listening, appreciated the work you put into this, enjoyed
Thank you Mr Norton what an unbelievable piece of work. Although not a mountaineer myself I've always had a fascination for those who defy the elements and mostly succeed in their endeavor to conquer the heights of this great planet. You now have one more satisfied subscriber, again many thanks.
Great stream Jake , thank u for all the time u put into this. I come back to the M&I rabbit hole at least once every year. Thanks again
Really enjoyed the video,hope you do another,thank you.
Incredible story ! Thanks a lot Jake for giving us the possibility to celebrate this century anniversary. Hope one day we will find something else and know the truth...
Very interesting and enjoyable in deed, thank you very much. Not a problem at all with the order of your slides, gave me a chance to take a breath. Best wishes and I look forward to your next posts / livestreams.
Awesome Jake! Thank you for sharing
And I do fully agree and believe your take on what happened that day! Just wish we could find Irvin.
Great Show, Thank You so much! Would love to listen to more of your experiences and findings. The "Mystery" and the events surrounding Mt Everest catches one's imagination so hard it's almost impossible to stop thinking about it.
Many people living today sometimes easily assume events "back then" wasn't doable due to lack of modern equipment etc... What they miss are the qualities in mind due to the experiences people endured through wars and other circumstances. Situations modern people hardly even knows about and it shaped people with special mind settings.
If I don't remember wrong I think Messner said, after solo Mt Everest without Oxygen, that the hardest part was with his mind, to continue to go on.
Please stream again I'm looking forward to it! 😺
Good stuff Jake! Appreciate the biographical angle of how you came to be so attracted to these giants. They definitely possess a mysterious and ominous draw and attraction that, at times, can only be akin to a Greek Siren-call. Only those who hv been thousands of feet above the madness of man and his pathological cities below can relate to the seductive allure of the heights. A different kind of calling that you know so well my friend! Thanks for sharing part of yourself!✌️
Love Jake Norton's honesty and humility. Love his raw Irvine search videos. Would love another livestream/s with more Q+A. This story is worth keeping alive. 1999 Mallory discovery blew me away as an undergraduate majoring in recreation. My own view of what happened to M+I is a little outside the 'box' and tells a story of immense tenacity on Mallory's part.
And my second question to you. Let's suppose that we are 50 years back in time. It is 1974 and the ladder on the 2nd step doesn't exist. You have to pick one route to summit. Based on your experience which route of the 3 routes with different colours in your presentation you will follow so as to summit?
Your expertise and experience are incredible. Thank you for your impartial take on this historical question. Do you do speaking engagements? I would love to have you speak if so.
Thank you, and thank you for your work. I do a lot of speaking engagements, just don't advertise it much, mainly word of mouth. Would love to talk to you about it though. Feel free to send me a message off my website here: jakenorton.com/contact/. I'll get back to you as soon as possible. Thanks!
Odell was geologist and knew very well The Mountain. According tô what he saw looks like they were abole second step, at the third step this is for sure
Dear Sir, excellent. As you put it clearly the moot question is: Odell saw them on the ridge, on the tail end of the Second Step, and that rules out the Norton route. Odell's first notings are clear on that as you also think. Interestingly Norton himself mentions in his account that Mallory always preferred the Ridge route. Given your experience on the mountain and especially on the ridge route, has Xu's return route towards their Camp VI been followed? He claimed to have seen Irvine to the left and of course to the east of the First Step. Do you think it is worth to explore that idea? He left the 'modern' route quite early from their Camp VII and so it is not a 'normal' descent route perhaps.
Also as the 1999 expedition found the oxygen bottle no 9 of the five the Stella envelop mentions, do you think they took five oxygen bottles as only those five were measured for their pressures out of the inventory at Camp VI that they had?
Thanks for your time sir.
ajay dandekar
Jake, thanks so much for this thoughtful presentation. Some of your inferences about M&I's final climb make sense to me, others not so much. A lot to chew on, I look forward to the next one.
Loved this….please do another one!
Sadly missed the live video, but enjoyed watching it anyway. Yes please to another livestream, I have lots of questions!
Jake thank you for this presentation. I didn't catch it live. I think the green line probably represents closer to the route for me personally. Mallory knew he was going to be filmed wherever possible so he would have stuck as best he could to his route description.
this is an honest and inspiring presentation. except for the second step, I believe that they made it.
Hey, Jake! Really cool presentation, my man! So sorry for not being a part of this experience live.
At any rate, I actually thought the experience was tops on UA-cam from the TV. Really cool in my opinion.
I particularly enjoyed your background story, and of course, your love for 1980s attire. lol
The Hornbein picture is so legit. And what is it with the scary aspects of climbing that draws us near? Also, when you were guiding on Rainier, did you form a relationship with Ed Viesturs? Just curious since I know that’s his backyard.
Your passion for Everest is incredible. I greatly appreciate your respect & admiration for the yesteryear climbers, mapmakers, surveyors, and their unmistakable courage to dive head on into the extreme unknown.
And it always feels like your love & respect for North approach means a great deal to you. So much so it almost seems like the South/Nepal approach is cheating. 😂
Anyway dude, thank you for another great time and awesome storytelling. You’re the man Jake! 🙏
Oh hey Jake, did you know that another Everest movie is currently underway? It’s starring Ewan McGregor as George Mallory. 😳
Hey Mike, thanks so much for the comment and kind words, and glad you enjoyed the presentation! It was, as always, fun to share, even if I screwed up the tech at the start and was more nervous than when I've spoken to a filled auditorium!
Totally agree with Bishop's photo from 1963 of Tom and Willi - so captivating, inspiring, makes you want to be right there with them, climbing into the unknown. I'm sure you've read Tom's book, and he philosophizes quite a bit in there about why we do this, what draws us, etc. Amazing read.
I sadly didn't overlap with Ed on Rainier, as he had largely stopped guiding for RMI by the time I started in 1993. But, I got to know him a bit later on, and then quite well when we were teammates on the Eddie Bauer team for 11 years. We were on Everest together in 2009, as well as Aconcagua, Cotopaxi, Vinson, and some other adventures. Great guy.
Again, thank you, Mike, and I hope all is well with you my friend!
Jake this was great! Thank you..please do alot more of these
Great presentation Jake! Would be amazing with one more live stream if possible. 😊 Have a great day!
Great video, I wholeheartedly believe Mallory and Irvine did summit Everest that fateful day and sadly fell descending in what I think was in the dark. No matter what they were both incredible men climbing Mt Everest
That was excellent and thank-you for doing it!
Thanks for making this video. It is very good!
Great presentation. Interesting comment on the zigzag route - the weak point in Michael Tracy's analysis in my view. Also your comment that, confronted with the view from camp 6, Mallory may have thought the ridge route a better bet. The 1930s climbers didn't come to that conclusion and Mallory had an inexperienced climber with him. But who's to say? I don't think we will ever know the full story.
That was brilliant, thank you. I think a climber of Mallory's reported ability would look at the second step (at least from the picture you put up) and think it was definitely climbable, but getting down without modern protection is a different story. That has always been what has bothered me about the account and where his body was found. If they did go up, they would have had to come down quite some distance to get to where he probably fell from - and if they took the ridge, that would mean downclimbing the second step.
Thank you, I really enjoyed this and have learnt a great deal. The slides of Everest were some of the best I have ever seen. Please make another video answering some of the questions. Your comments about the mountain changing over time are well taken. It could be that the zig zag route was easier as you point our the second step could have been. What do you think of Michael Tracey's video on where Odell was standing when he saw Mallory and Irvine? He claimed that the first step was not visible and the only snowfield was around the third step.
Lots of great information. It’s a shame that you and Michael Tracey can’t swallow your pride and get together to share information. Differing opinions are fine and normal but the combined knowledge of you all would be awesome if you could get together! Who knows you might actually settle some differences and begin to get along
Michael Tracy has no interest in getting along with anyone.
@@10splitter haha 100% agree, I used to enjoy MTs videos but in the past 12 months find him to simply be an asshole who uses big words to talk down to anybody who disagrees with his opinions
I’d like to just see them all, Jake, Thom Michael etc etc get together for the greater good and share information and thoughts. I agree that Michael has in recent times got more aggressive than needed towards others without opening himself to direct conversation with others. Sometimes you need to agree to disagree on certain things and understand that there is no malice behind someone’s thoughts. Might just be a pipe dream
Its too bad that Michael Tracy is an asshole and nobody wants to get along with him. It makes collaboration pretty difficult when the moment you disagree with him, you are a fool and get removed from the conversation. And removed without the ability to defend yourself. Nobody WANTS to work with him, it has nothing to do about swallowing anything.
Thanks, Phil. I would have no problem collaborating with MT on things, and have done my best to share my thoughts, research, ideas, etc quite openly here and on my website, in the small community I built (free to everyone, paid by me). Unfortunately, Michael seems to more enjoy ripping anyone who dares disagree, and stays solely focused on what everyone else is saying, doing, or thinking wrong rather than operating in the spirit of collaboration. It is a shame, as he's added a lot of good information to the story - some fact, much theory passed as fact, lots of good thought - but has also injected a great deal of needles vitriol, conspiracy, and more where I don't feel it needs to be. But, such is the world we live in, I guess. That said, I'm open to collaborating if all sides are doing it in good faith, but won't hold my breath for that! Thanks, and be well!
Loved this...very well presented!
So well told. Poignant, moving.
Jake, many thanks for an excellent and thought-provoking presentation. It was really good to hear about your experiences as well as your theories, which leave the door to this enduring mystery very much open. I'm not a mountaineer, but I've read a lot of the literature regarding Mallory and Irvine from Sir Francis Younghusband's "The Epic of Mount Everest" to Wade Davis' "Into The Silence", from Graham Hoyland's "Last Hours on Everest" to Mark Synnott's "The Third Pole". I remember Wade Davis somewhere within the conclusion of his tome having mentioned something on the lines of the possibility of there having been a potential snow ramp easing Mallory and Irvine's route up the Second Step in 1924. I wonder if you have any thoughts on that? Graham Hoyland, who I understand is Howard Somervell's great nephew, in a BBC documentary believed that they had made it to the summit, but in his book he had changed his mind. This thing about the Chinese having covertly taken Irvine's body off the mountain is pure conjecture for me. I feel that we need to have some sort of evidence to work on before we can consider the possibility of the Chinese having found and interfered with Irvine's body otherwise there's the risk of the potential whereabouts of Irvine developing into a conspiracy theory. One question I have is what did they do for water on that fateful day when their gas cooker had rolled down the mountain the day before? I can't imagine how dehydrated they would've been without an adequate supply of water, and it raises the question of whether it would have been possible to go very far without water. It's interesting that in a 1986 documentary Noel Odell confirmed Mallory and Irvine having reached the foot of the final pyramid, which brings me back to the Third Step, and if they had been there what would have stopped them from going all the way, regardless of the fact it had been 12:50 pm? I'm glad you mentioned the snow goggles in Mallory's pocket because as you say, they must have had a long day, and descended in the dark, but when exactly we might never be able to tell. It would have been so easy for them to have got lost in the dark. Considering where Mallory's final resting place was, it makes you wonder from which point he actually fell because as you say it couldn't have been from the ridge because in your opinion it was a bit too far away. Many thanks again, Jake, and I look forward to more discussions in the future.
Excellent presentation! Thanks so much. I want to believe.
Love everything you do. My thought against the second step is this- since Mallory was found below even the first step they must’ve found a way down #2, and that would’ve necessitated them leaving a rope tied off above the head wall that should’ve been found by subsequent expeditions. I believe several climbers 1933 team reconnoitered second step, close enough to have seen a rope if it was there.
Thanks! Great presentation. I agree with your analysis.
Incredible video, breathtaking photos, I watched a second time on 65" OLED to give the photos some justice, 🙂
Excellent presentation and storytelling. While I don't belive we'll ever find out the truth, I really do hope that further evidence comes to light that gives credence to a succesful summit.
Good stuff
Thanks!
Wow, this video was so good. Incredible story.
An enduring mystery for sure.
Absolutley fantastic presentation Jake! Where the heck did you find such high resolution pictures from the 1921 expedition?
Thanks
Greetings from the town of Birkenhead. There is a photo expedition at the visitors centre in Birkenhead Park this summer to mark the Centenary of the 1924 exhibition. Growing up on the Wirral obviously I learned about them as a child. we can only hope one day Andrew will be found and the camera with him.
I believe Odell saw them on the small snowfield just above the 3rd step. I further believe they went straight up the snowfield as Bob Slozen did.
Love, love, love, love this! Thank you!
(I think you, as the creator, can re-show or allow the live stream conversation to re-play for those of who come to watch after the live and read the live conversation also.)
⛰️ ❤
Thanks, and glad you enjoyed it. I've tried to figure out how to enable replay of the live stream conversation, but can't figure it out. I'll try again!
@@jake_nortonYou must record it at the time.
Really great presentation. If possible, could you recommend the best books/documentary about your 1999 expedition that found Mallory's body. Has anyone gone back through those and re-done a newer documentary that would include information that has come to light over the years since then? Thank you.
@ Norton Very Good presentation as always 👏.
So heres my take on what happened After reading many books and videos in the Subject. As A few other Posters have Mentioned I don't believe they take the Ridge route..I think Mallory was following Nortons Route from a few Days before. At some point After they Disappeared 'into the Mist a Serious Blizzard happened and they Then Tried to make there way back.(Likely Struggling to See much in front of them)Making Slow progress and portenaly seriously struggling with The Cold and with Their Oxygen gone or not working Mallory Slips and Pulls Andrew with him .
Note 1.I do Believe Odal did see them, However I come to the conclusion he really doesn't Kown were.
I thought the same ... that they got caught in a storm, but I'm pretty sure the weather records for that day or week exist.
So, if we go by Odell sighting. Mallory's body is found low before the first step. If they had turned around before the first step, I think they would have made it back. So, let's put them to the second step. How long would it take them to attempt 2nd step then turn back. Would they have a good chance of making it back to camp? I think so. That would put them between the 2nd and 3rd step when Odell spotted them. I agree with what You had stated earlier. Mallory was going for the summit come hell or high water. My opinion is, Mallory and Irvine made it to the summit but to long and we're pushing hard to make it back to camp. As with so many, the climb down is where the mis step happens. Completely spending all their energy to make the summit only to die on the way down. All tho we will probably never know with certainty. Enjoy Your video. I would like to see a follow up. Rock on !!!!!!
I'm in for part 2
Thank you Mr Norton for an excellent presentation. I have a question for you. Considering the fact that George Mallory found w/o googles, w/o oxygen bottles etc we could probably assume that he died descending late in the afternoon. By using your experience and knowing that they left early in the morning what's the time they spend in mountain that day? What's the distance they probably covered from early in the morning till late in the afternoon? Is it enough to reach the 2nd step and get back or that would take less time? Is it enough to summit and get back to his final resting place?
I think there is agreement (?) that the hands on Mallory's watch showed 1.25. Presumably, since his goggles were in his pocket, in the morning.
Good question, and a hard one to answer since we really don't know for sure where they went aside from the few items found over the years. But, i think evidence points to them descending late, after dark, so they would have had 12+ hours on the mountain, likely more. So, plenty of time to do a lot and climb high, but they would inevitably have used a lot of time route finding and figuring out where and how to go, no matter what route they took. Sorry not to be able to give you a much better and more concrete answer!
I agree with most of your comments - Odell sighted them BEFORE the second step - Mallory may have attempted the 2nd step and faltered - injuring or even breaking his leg in the attempt making the retreat v. slow and difficult - as the sunset and darkness made their return travels more difficult - Mallory or Irvine lost their footing in the dark and pulled the other off the mountain - it was likely that Irvine had to assist Mallory in some capacity burdening his load and balance on more challenging terrain - Irvine's body MUST be in the fall trajectory of Mallory - that is obvious - the entire Chinese found the body and brought it down to thwart the summit is pure BS storytelling people like Michael Tracy spout about to get view clicks - Irvine is definitely still up there - somewhere in the fall trajectory - he is either buried in deep snow or fell into a crevasse or fell further down the mountain - the rope cuts on Mallory body prove he was tied to Irvine and they would have fallen together - once the rope snagged on some rocks and snapped their paths went separate directions and hence why Irvine is not in the near vicinity - the high altitude drones should make searching this region easier and affordable - given a suitable thaw season - Irvine should eventually be found save he is in a deep crevasse which is possible
odell didnt see them before the second step. from his vantage point he couldnt even see the second step. he saw them at the base of the third step up from the top of the coulier. educate yourself.
Loved it, Jake!!
Btw ... I believe they summitted.
Excellent presentation. Question/comment about the photo of Ruth. Is there any substantive evidence that Mallory actually had such a photo on the expedition? I think too much emphasis is placed on this wishful canard. After departing Darjeeling, Mallory did correspond with Ruth, requesting photographs of her and the children; and subsequent correspondence affirms that Mallory received the children's photos, but he's still requesting a photo of Ruth.
Honestly unless they were using oxygen. Properly. I dont think they would’ve made the summit. Due to shear exhaustion alone
Hi Jake thank you for this video. I thoroughly enjoyed your take on this debate. I read an article about the possibility that mallory climbed the final pyramid solo. Whilst Irvine waited in area called the olga,s. Have the olga,s been searched.
Smithe was a formidable mountaineer, according with Odell story he tought Mallory climbed the second step. When he arrived at the second step he considered it impossible to climb and changed way and went in the colouir. The question is why Mallory, in front of the 2nd step (with Irvine, not experienced climber) should have say let’s go, let’s climb it. I think he went to the colouir and tried that way, maybe he came back soon, maybe he arrived at the third step (when odall saw them)
Thank you- beautiful modern an vintage photos! I do have a question regarding the oxygen bottle discovered near the ice axe recovery: do you know if the bottle was full or empty of oxygen?
I wonder how many other people have found artifacts from GM and SI but never told anyone.
After following the Mallory story for the last 20 years and reading and watching everything I can get my hands on I came to the conclusion that all of you involved in the search of Mallory and the movie "The wildest Dream" are just a bunch of dishonest people, history will not be kind on you, some truths always come out eventually.
I rseally appreciate your hionesty, integrity, vilunerability, openness. Your theory is interesting. Here are my concerns. We know Odell saw them on the ridge. The question is where? The first step feels highly unreaistic. That would mean it took 7 hours to get there from high camp. I don't know how long it is in time from first to decond step, How does that fit into timeline? How long did it take Chinese to do that manuveur for the first time? If they got up and summited, yes how did they get down the second step most likely in the dark. Mallory fell quite a distance from it. If they could not surmount the second step where were they then on the ridge where Odell felt they were close to the final pyramid? If they were successful on a "zig zag" and were on the third step when sighted, the timing seems more consistent. I read that some years later one of the climnbers said the zig zag wasn ot as bad as originally thought in terms of loose rock.On top by 4 but in the dark at the fall location, unfotunately wshat seems to be an easier part oof the descent.
The timing here feels very confusing. Those who have been on the mountain or really know these tings are in a better position to comment.
P.S. I saw "The Wildest Dream" including Anker's free scaling of the second step. The entire movie is on UA-cam. If what he did was legit, taking into account your "red herring" article, it seems inconceivable they did not summit. Mallory was probably as skilled as skilled a climber as Anker who wore Mallory's type clothes and boots.To me no photo on Mallory is the clincher.
Hi Jake, another subject I would love to hear your thoughts on is the 1960 Chinese effort on the North Ridge. No stove, no summit photos, only some fuzzy photos of summit rocks that have never been analyzed by a western lab. I personally find their claim to have summited to be flimsy, at best. I would imagine if a climber questioned it publicly, they would never get a Chinese climbing permit approved again.
Hey Jake, question, is there a reason Ed Viesturs wasn’t on the 99 Mallory Expedition or any after? Just curious because he was an established climber by that point
Lots of this video is sadly wasted time in examining the ridge route, which Mallory himself stated multiple times was impossible and he didn't intend to take. He stated his intention to take the zigzag route beneath the ridge route. The entire debate over whether Mallory was able to climb the 2nd step is moot, because he never went that way. Michael Tracy does a phenomenal job exploring this and would recommend others check out his investigation on the matter.
If Mallory and Irvine made it past the 2nd step, may they have gone on no matter how late it was. In 1975, Doug Scott and Dougal Haston after climbing the southwest face, reached Everest's summit just as the sun was going down.
As in the Thom pollard podcast, no mention of sulzer Ned
Why all of you who found Mallory in 1999 hiding photos and videos you took there, when observing and checking his body. I do not beleive you.
Thanks for your impressive accomplishments and efforts. Yeah it is almost like Mallory and Irvine, for their efforts and sacrifice, are held in higher esteem than Hillary and Norgay. I hope they made if just for themselves to have that moment before their deaths. I think two sherpas died on this expedition also. It seems like their contributions are not properly recognized.
Hi Jake, question, do you know exactly how you found the mittens in 01? I imagine they mustve been held down by a rather weighty rock to withstand that amount of time in the elements and wind
Why did you mark up the war map?
I'm still listening so maybe you mention it.
Jake do you know if theirs video of you guys with Mallory in its entirety? Namely the exhumation and how hard it was
"Bergen guy" here again :) Were you guiding at RMI back in 2001? I climbed Rainier with RMI on 9/11/01! Did you know John Murkowski?
Jake, first off excellent presentation as all of yours are, to the point however, just last week I watched a video, don't ask who the guy was because I can't remember, but he wasn't a mountaineer he was an older English gentleman that was I believe a mathematician who got interested in Mallory and Irvine and did research into their story, he had a very compelling argument about the ice axe that was found on the ridge in the 30's not belonging to either Mallory or Irvine, according to his theory it was too short to have belonged to either of them especially Irvine, he feels that it was a porters ice axe that was given to them as a spare and instead of it being the location of where an incident occurred instead it's likely they put it there as a marker, whether that would be for a reference point for them for on the way back down after they pressed on further, a marker for maybe another attempt the next day or whatever would be anyone's guess, as he pointed out when it was found it wasn't just laying there but instead was sticking up out of the snow upright just as one might do if leaving a marker, what are your thoughts on that and if that would be the case how could that change the narrative?
Not sure why he would do the ridge route if he said in his letters he didn’t want to do Rock climbing but then we can’t explain the funds if the ice axe ac and the oxygen bottle. Unless that was on the way down. May have been safer route
I know I am showing my ignorance ,did Mallory and Irvine climb from the North? Thank you
well came on to early then forgot and went to bed
Sorry, Gary, but hope you were able to watch the replay!
@@jake_norton I did and was as interesting as ever Jake
I wish people would stop talking about the second step route, there is no way they would have attempted this route. Mallory never talked about taking this route. ua-cam.com/video/_alNnOQkbHE/v-deo.htmlsi=uW9Xx5gs6TWyQ75f
Mallory did talk about the ridge route, it's documented. Whether he followed through with it we don't know for sure. Odell certainly thought he did on the day.
Like Jake said in his video you don't know how viable rock is until you get up close to it. The 1933 team of Wager and Wyn Harris were deceived in the area under the second step twice.
Mallory Speech to Alpine Club and RGS: "Upwards from the North Col it was fairly certain that no great obstacle would present itself below the final ridge, and it seemed probable that the true N.-E. ridge to the summit, if it could be reached, would not be insuperable."
Thanks, Griffith. I don't think anyone can really say that with any authority. Mallory spoke in '21 about not taking the NE Ridge, but lots of that was in reference to the entire ridge, with him noting in those discussions the horror of the Pinnacles. As WellyCoaster notes below, other writings of his suggest he didn't find the Ridge to be out of the question. Much of the debate depends on how you read things, what you want to read into it, etc. And, at the end of the day, arguments over the Ridge or the hypothetical zig-zag route don't matter too much as no one knows where they went...aside from them. I think we're all best serving the story by approaching it with an open mind, accepting other opinions, ideas, and theories even if we disagree with them, and especially when there is no evidence saying it's this way or that way. To me, it's quite like the question of whether or not they reached the top, and everyone wants to say, emphatically, yes or no. The truth is we simply have no proof they did summit, and equally no proof they did not. It's a complete mystery at this point.
Anyway, thanks for your comment!
@@jake_norton Thank you for the reply. I personally think M&I were doomed, even if they made it to the top because they had no cooker, hence no water. Question, has anyone climbed the Zig-Zag route, apparently, the incline is only 21° on average (M. Tracy)? I know Messner was near it in snowy conditions and did not see a viable route. I am disappointed about the second-step conjecture because with it we will never find out what really happened, as far as I know no-one has ever found any of their equipment (M&I) higher than around the first-step, where are all the oxygen bottles? Apparently this generation of English climbers weren't in the business of throwing things down the mountain. I loved the movie "the wildest dream" but I can't watch it anymore because of the 2nd step conjecture. I am honestly bemused that climbers connected to the movie and the search (of M&I) still push this idea and I have often wondered if they are contractually obliged to do so by the financiers of the movie and the search.
@@griffith500tvrI know I'm not Jake and probably wonder why the heck I keep replying, I had the same questions before I started looking into the accounts myself so hope this can be of help in any way.
21 degrees doesn't match the accounts of Norton and the 1933 climbers trying the zig zag area east of the couloir. No one has climbed it and all attempts have been forced across the couloir to exit the western wall in the area of Messner and the Aussies etc.
All accounts talk of cliffs and Frank Smythe's photo looking across the couloir to his high point clearly shows a steep black cliff band east of the couloir.
Smythe's book Camp Six, also Everest 1933 by Hugh Ruttledge can be downloaded on the Internet Archive (google it) and these books go into detail of the difficulties of the zig zag area.
Frank Smythe in Camp Six page, 179: trying to turn the second step:
"Could I climb directly upwards to a point above the second step and attack the final pyramid without having to continue this long, wearisome and unprofitable traverse? The wall rose above me like a sea cliff, in places it overhung, and every hold, every wrinkle and crack held its quota of snow. There was no visible break in it until the buttress where there was a gap, possibly the point reached by Norton in 1924, which might prove a feasible alternative to the subsidiary couloir. At all events direct ascent was impossible"
Norton and Smythe describing the cliffs directly above the yellow band and explaining the least steep section of the cliffs and exit breach is on the western wall. The same place Messner, the Aussies etc exited the couloir.
Frank Smythe at the Everest discussion 1933 in the Geographical Journal January 1934, page 15:
"It is necessary to get into the subsidiary couloir on the other side of the steep buttress, at the foot of which the main couloir and subsidiary couloir bifurcate. This subsidiary couloir is the most dramatic thing on Mount Everest, because it forms the only breach in the band which runs across the northern face of the final pyramid."
Norton in Alpine Journal 57, page 287:
".......the ' yellow band.' This band of schistose limestone stands out clearly against the black rock above and below it in all views of the N . face of the mountain. It is roughly 1ooo ft. deep, and on its eastern end it extends in depth from just below the first step to just below and including the N.-E. shoulder ; its upper edge crosses the. great couloir at 28,ooo ft. and is continued to the W. immediately below a formidable band of black cliffs which crosses the whole face ; the first and second steps, the buttresses which run down from them, and the overhang at the head of the great couloir are all features of the massive limestone in this band of precipices. It is broken to some extent and appears to be least steep at about the point where the three attempts have been made to break out from the great couloir. This is the breach in this formidable defence of the final pyramid......."
Didn’t Frank Smythe get at least as high as Norton in 33?
So the hard evidence puts GM and AI on the ridge. An assumption can be formulated that the sequence of evidence is “in desending”. Dump the Ox bottle, ice axe (at or near fall point, GM below), and the mitten last ridge position. GM googles in pocket indicates coming down after darkness. Injury not mentioned - skull puncture or was this post death and caused by rock fall from above? Until AI is found or more hard evidence uncovered still a question of summit.
Nobody puts Jake in the corner!
Removal of Irvine (by Chinese) would be possible as they manage the care of that side of the mountain. I don't think there is any malice or ill intent of Chinese if Irvine was removed., it would be a clean up task