Science VS. Snake-Oil: Debunking Bunk in this Crazy World (with Timothy Caulfield)
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2022
- Timothy Caulfield (@CaulfieldTim) is Professor of health law & science policy, speaker, TV host & author. He joins Seth Andrews for a compelling and fun conversation about information and misinformation in the media age.
Seth/Tim - Just so you know about my group of old people: all over 80, leftists, atheists, various colors, retired here in southwestern Mexico. No TV to watch, but thanks to UA-cam, we have people like you and Timothy to listen to.
Thank you.
🌱 You made my 💋 heart 🌅 sing, Jesus
Hi S. Hurd, I'd love to know more about your community. I'm thinking about retirement.
@@mrpaupie Oaxaca.
@KindHrt77 you bet!
That's awesome!
I loved James Randi's approach to testing " aura readers " and other spiritual mumbo. He allows the practitioner to design an experiment wherein they can prove their power/ability, offers them a million bucks if they can do it, and watches, along with an audience, as they fail to demonstrate anything special, and don't win the money. These types of things don't usually sway the true believers but for those with open minds it puts that stuff right where it should be, in the bs file.
I worked as an artist model, during the break I walked around to see who saw the aura I was projecting. One fellow did. All 3 colors, all the right shade and intensity. I steered clear of him! He looked like the typical depiction of Pan.
It's not mumbo. My grand daughter at 3 could see my aura. You know a 3 year old who has no clue as to what an aura is, is not going to fake it.
I use the protection of the white aura that I have augmented with barbs to double up the protection recently. Waking up with 3 broken fingernails that I had examined prior to going to sleep and it seemed like a good idea.
@@dianeneill499 So obviously only special people can see them, right? I'm sure you can understand your daughter's three year old speech. That type of evidence may convince you. So be it.
With a test designed so that the " seer " meets eight people ( so he/she can see and read their auras ) Then they take their places in a line behind barriers, some of them are blank with no one behind. The readers claim they can see the aura that extends far above the subject's head. Then they are asked to identify the barriers behind which people were standing. They all, in every trial, failed to pick the correct barriers more than would be expected by chance. They stood to win a million dollars if they could just read auras.
Tim Minchen on "Alternative medicine": What do they call medicine that actually works? Medicine!
I turned my Doctor on to that the day after I 1st heard it. Seemed like she could use a bit of encouragement at the time.
It has got to be just draining to practice medicine here.
In 2016 I went to a chiropractor for a severe flare up of sciatica. I went to him because I had a $6000 deductible on my health insurance and couldn't afford an MD. Turns out he was wonderful, he used massage and manipulation and didn't believe in all the "other" stuff some chiropractors apparently do. He helped me move again and I certainly miss the massages
Yeah, it's weird how so many chiropractors now delve into all that other mystical stuff that people talk about the entire field as if they all do it. In this case it's not just a few bad ones ruining it for everybody, it really seems like it's most of them.. but what do I know
I love my chiropractor! She's helped me a lot over the years. 🙂
I can't remember where it came from now but in an interview about alternative medicine in Chinese hospitals a Chinese doctor, said about acupuncture in quite a serious voice, "people have imaginary illnesses so we need imaginary treatments to help then. "
Greedy practitioners need imaginary treatments, honest people ask them what they are avoiding.
@@dianeneill499 I agree that there are lots of very greedy people behind a lot of alternative make believe cures Jiily Juice is a prime example.. I do think though that people got tricked. In the NHS in Britain treatments like homeopathy and aroma therapy were practised by nurses, not for money. They really thought they were helping patients. There were serious looking journals and papers to read and courses to go on. It seemed legitimate. Even doctors went along with it because aroma therapy seemed to have benefits when patients couldn't settle. It was called complimentary therapy because It went alongside the real medicine. As a nurse I used aroma therapy to ease the uncomfortable side effects of medication. I used it too alongside CBT to ease anxiety. We used it to aid sleep because it took away that awful hospital smell. We sincerely believed we were using proven substances.
Nurses began doing research into the substances, homeopathy was dropped like a hot brick when the results came in. Aroma therapy stayed but lost it medicine status. It became more enhancing the environment and as therapeutic touch like massage and foot spa soaks. I think the greatest part of all of it was time with patients. It gave us time not to be busy but to actually be with the patients and doing something pleasant instead of proceedures
@@toforgetisagem8145 Sounds like many of the effect of marijuana. Aromas do have less short term memory problems.
@@dianeneill499 Have you ever seen a young person suffering from psychosis due to marijuana use? Aroma therapy has nothing at all to do with marijuana use. People put out this message that marijuana is all peace and love and chilled out happiness. They totally ignore the fact that it can and does trigger schizophrenia. For those it does it is irreversible.
@@toforgetisagem8145 Probably a good idea to keep the smoke away from anyone under 25 until after the brain has finished developing. (Insurance companies know a thing or two about the brain. That's why your rates go down at 25.) As for schizophrenia, it was told to me that it was a chemical imbalance and it truly has no distinct symptoms that apply to everyone. I don't say that pot will speed up or instigate the problem, they are not the same thing. Some more research needed, I suspect.
I did suffer from paranoia in the '60s but I think there was good reason for it.
Aromatherapy, tells me that it's a placebo.
Tell someone in a loving manner that some oil will make them more assertive and the idea is planted in the brain. Every time they sniff, the idea is reinforced.
It's the same with gem stones.
What ever rocks your boat.
I had a close friend who was, as it turned out, an antivaxxer, among a whole host of other half baked conspiracy theories ("conspiracy narratives" is, IMO, a better term; "theory" gives it too much legitimacy, bc that is the highest level any hypotheses can reach in real science). Well anyway, my friend died of covid on xmas day '21. Totally preventable death (all he would have had to do was roll up his sleeves a few times), and totally attributable to misinformation and ideology. We who were his friends were put in the position of pleading with HIM for HIS life! The pleas fell on deaf ears. His dearly held conspiracy narratives were, apparently, more important to him than were his friends who loved him, and even more important than his own life.
Same sad experience with our good friend.
@@neildebella5738 it sucks, doesn't it. It would be nice to at least not have his memory dominated by anger at him. There's not even any opportunity to strangle him!
@@tkat6442 All I can say is, "stupid, stupid, stupid" when I think of him! The only way I can even come close to this parallel universe we are living in, is to see him as a cult member brainwashed by a cult leader. Very, very disturbing...
@@neildebella5738 I so relate to your every word! The last time I saw him was by zoom with a dr. and a nurse, just before he went on a ventilator for 6 days. There was a moment of recognition when he seemed like he knew what trouble he was in, then it seemed like all that was gone, lost in the fog of covid brain. I'll always wonder if he knew he messed up, and there's no way I'll ever know...
@@neildebella5738 btw, Your most recent comment doesn't show here for me, but is reflected in the reply count, but I was able to find it by going to your channel. YT is weird lately.
Well America, we had A run.
This conversation was therapeutic, thank you!
Chiropractic is not the panacea they bill it as. But when I have a crick in my neck, that's who I want to see.
I used to say some wacky stuff to my patients(I am a chiro). Now I let them know that restoring function so they can get back to living, even if symptoms remain, is likely the best many patients can expect.
Feldenkrais is the answer
@@Bthe312 Ok. But what is the question?
Great video. I think it's cool that you had Timothy Caulfield on. I've been a huge fan of his for years. :D
Chiropractic simply releases joint pressure held by muscle tension, thereby interrupting the spasm-pain-spasm cycle of protection. That’s it. It can be very helpful for pain relief. However, many chiros make “other” claims. Keep it simple, use it for what it is. Top priorities, change your bad postural habits, do movement exercises, and get orthopedic muscle therapy. With these, you won’t need chiro on a regular basis. I only see a chiro or osteopath when something is locked up, and nothing else is releasing it.
As a chiro myself, your post is pretty much spot on. Structural function is my focus. I dabbled in crystals, chakras and such for a while. Found it to be basically worthless and took too much time. Many of my patients are happy as can be to get back to living their life, even when they still have symptoms.
I'm outgunned by your other reply, but I wanted to support you on this. There's a huge amount of woo spouted by a lot of people in regard to this, and all of that fully deserves the rubbishing that debunkers give it - but too many throw the baby with the bathwater. At it's most basic, it's not much difference from cracking your knuckles - achieves nothing in the long run, but can relieve some really severe symptoms immediately. The biggest difference being that you're dealing with a spine filled with very delicate nerve bundles, and if you screw it up somebody's life gets ruined.
@@CyberiusT With any manual therapy provided by a competent practitioner, it depends on the severity of a person’s musculoskeletal dysfunction. 1) caught early enough, patterns can be changed (majority of cases) 2) after some degeneration has occurred, it provides temporary relief from days to months 3) severe degenerations, limited results, if they can receive at all. In my experience, chiropractic or manipulative osteopathy speeds up the process of change, or lengthens the time of relief. All manual therapy facilitates change, but the person must do their part to re-educate the neuromuscular pattern by addressing the cause, and exercising to stretch or strengthen. Again, there are different factors, such as degeneration, disc narrowing, neural plasticity, etc. I find orthopedic muscle therapy (more detailed than regular massage) to help the most. Then use chiro or osteo when something won’t release because it’s in a neuromuscular protection beyond the norm causing a joint restriction in the spasm-pain-spasm cycle.
@@Nimion2 check out my other reply. I don’t do any woo woo stuff like you mentioned:) At best, they can be done at home. I’ve been providing orthopedic muscle therapy for 28 years, licensed as massage, but much more specific. PTs rarely do hands-on muscle work, so I’m bridging the gap. I’ve worked with a few chiros and have received chiro when needed for 35 years. Life goes on, habits happen, injuries happen. Muscles affect joints. People can get relief, or ignore and live with the discomfort. Unfortunately, ignoring it speeds up degeneration. Our work provides relief and slows the progression of degeneration that ultimately occurs with aging.
Yeah, I see chiro as in the same category as massage.
It's so nice to hear thoughtful discussions about interesting and important topics with a nice dose of humor! Great interview
Great interview. Great topics. Loved it.
Great conversation. Thanks
Now that I'm older, I get more "procedures". No, I don't feel attended to or special. Leading up to it, everyone is your friend and all smiles in a slightly rushed way. Afterward, the rush is more prominent. Facilities are tightly booked, staff is a bit short. So what is you're still woozy and a bit disoriented, off you go. I totally understand the appeal of the woo..I will stick with the real medicine but still wish for a bit more recovery time.
Here's a stray request: Seth, will you PLEASE talk to the people at Atheist Experience about whatever teleconferencing software you're using? You and Timothy could actually talk to each other in real time without the INCESSANT cross-talk and subsequent stammering and apologizing that takes up about 50% of the time on Atheist Experience? My God, this was refreshing to watch--certainly, because of the content, but also because of your interactions.
does it have to happen live on TV news?
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that has been proven to work?
Medicine.
( thanks to Tim Minchin )
But praying helps cure cataracts, right?
I'm glad that I lost interest in Dilbert before Scott Adams started showing his crazy.
I've lived in central Pennsylvania nearly all my life. If Dr. Oz becomes my senator, I'm fucking moving!
I have in the past gone to a chiropractor. They help me but it was scary having someone crack my spine . After I started practicing the most basic yoga though I have never had to resort to there care again.
To the best of my knowledge, dry needling is different to acupuncture, and is based on muscle stimulation, not 'healing points'.
I've had good results with this at my local physio - who explained the difference to me.
There's no scientific evidence to support the efficacy of dry needling as a means of treating anything. It can give temporary pain relief, however studies show no statistic significance.
I don’t like alternative medicine.
Put the links in your description please!
There are a lot of web sites that quote AAA as saying pulling out of a parking space (after you had backed in to park) is safer as it reduces the chance of hitting a pedestrian, but, being a good sceptic, I found the article labled "Majority of American Drivers on Naughty List" from AAA that has the quote.
If you’ve backed in to a parking space you have a much better view when you pull out.
Misinformation can come from multiple sources, but it would be great if everyone would watch ‘The Social Dilemma’…it’s a good watch.
Seth, have you had Jonathan Haidt on your show? He would be a wonderful interview with great insights along the line of this show. Thanks for your activism!
Us atheists need more talk about Feng Shui, crystals, and all other the other woo more often, to let the religious folks see we don't only focus on religion.
The last person I would ever take advice from is a celebrity. Lmao I have never understood why people do that. At the same time as brand loyalty as well.
I've been thinking about the tribalism/partisanship & how it reinforces confirmation bias. Not only can we accurately asses a person's 'tribe' by asking their position on a few key issues but we can reasonably PREDICT what they will believe on future issues by knowing their tribe.
Correct me if I'm wrong but did I just hear something about debunking the correct way to parallel park a car?
The irony of having Snake-oil in the title and Caulfield's name.
Wonder where you guys would come down on fecal analysis with microbiome studies and recommended therapies. Probably not all companies are created equal, but is this a valid therapy?
I remember falling for Dr. Oz's promotion of green coffee bean and red raspberry ketone supplements for burning fat!
"Road Warrior", the real name of this movie is "Mad Max 2" but they didn't really release the first in the USA. "Mad Max beyond Thunderdome" is the 3rd in the series but had very little to do with Max, it was just a Tina Turner movie trying to be in the Max universe And The fourth movie ignores thunderdome and is more like "The next Generation" but fits.
People actually believe in our extant political process! Much of the "alternatives" that are discussed here make MORE sense than the "dog and pony show" we call democracy. Yet most of America is absolutely captivated by the elaborate lie of People's democracy !
I love that y'all named several celebrities who are using their platform(s) to spread misinformation...whether based in ideology or merely ignorance. I think one of the most powerful and important lessons people need to learn is how to recognize _actual_ experts in any given field. Being rich and famous doesn't mean that celebrities actually know what the hell they're talking about. Moreover, _nobody_ is an expert in _everything,_ and most people aren't experts in _anything._ Simply recognizing who is best qualified to opine on any particular subject...and accepting that it _usually_ it isn't oneself...would be a huge step in the collective battle against the Dunning Kruger Effect. Also, I'm adding, "Panic Pimps," to my conversational lexicon!
Chiropractors even use 'Newtonian physics' to explain their drop benches. Which are actually broken benches that a chiro decided to make money on. But Newtonian physics isn't going to work with a couple of inches drop. I asked a chiro what the bench really does...she said it gives her 'more ooomph'. Which I think about sums up the science involved.
In pain for 10 years and needed a walking stick in the morning. Went to physio for two months. Nothing. Went to chiro and was adjusted and had 100% relief. No more spasms, no more aches, no more walking sticks. So this dope is just wrong
A chiropractor recently told my 80 year old mother that her balance and cognitive issues are caused by three fused vertebrae. She has had numerous head and back scans over the years (she's been in numerous car wrecks). No exam has ever revealed "three fused vertebrae". She said that's because they weren't looking for that. The chiropractor was.
Isn't that confirmation bias??
no its called mis-diagnosis
What the fuck is this comments section?
I was just wondering the same thing!
Same as they ever are…. 🤪
Every lunatic you can imagine.
Some people can remove the art from the artist, some can’t. One of my favorite bands is Megadeth and the lead guy, Dave Mustaine is a born again Christian. He’s still a nice guy and I still like his music, but I’ve talked to people who won’t listen for that reason. I guess it’s personal for everyone.
You can talk to such people about pretty much everything. But the moment the topic hits their theistic beliefs you suddenly talk to an absolute moron. Thats my experience from over ten years conversing with theists.
God Gave Rock n' Roll To You.
@@kevinramsey417 that's not what the Christians protesting a metal concert I attended had to say, They were very sure it was the devil's work and leading us all away from Jesus
All musicians are entertainers with a particular audience. Dave just morphed into what most of his audience members believed. A hell raising, born again, god-damned, mother fucking, ticket buying, Christian. They don't see the irony, or the hypocrisy, or the outright cognitive dissonance. Some fans just don't care.
I was a big fan of Terrible Ted Nugent when I was young, saw him in concert twice. I did always know he was a complete moron.
Chiropractor’s definitely Click Out!
No one can say (or should be allowed to get away with saying) "I'm just asking questions" when they're clearly advocating one side. Their minds are already made up.
Yo!
What's the difference between snakeoil peddlers and god-preaching clergy?
A: Snakeoil is a real thing
Wow, you pissed off some chiros; good job.
I am a chiro and not really pissed, just disappointed that my entire profession is commonly profiled as being wacky. My practice is function and pain relief based. I know a few who lay on crystals and wave their hands around reiki or chakra points. I dabbled in that years ago...found it worthless and very time consuming.
Asking hard questions has now become an “attack” on the other person. Intellectually dishonest.
Side note: I enjoy Woody Allen movies, but it can be difficult to look past his behavior. He wrote that clever and insightful stuff, and yet his possible sexual behavior with children is so troubling. I can no longer admire him.
Well. I know one way you can connect yoga to Qanon. They're both. . . A STRETCH!!!
I'll see myself out now.
So, you talk about Joe Rogan being the most popular podcast that spews misinformation and then move on to ask if old people are the ones who are falling for fake news. So, do you think that old people are the ones who made Joe's podcast the most popular?
Fox News brought the olds into the fold decades ago.
Mainstream medical vs chiropractors reminds me of religion vs atheism. A good chiropractor will recommend medical treatment if needed, but mainstream medical will not recommend a chiropractor. There are quacks in chiro just as there are quacks in medicine, so finding one that is helpful can take some time and energy. To just flat out debunk chiropractors though is the same mindset that religion is truth and anyone who doesn't believe is wrong. Sorry Seth... love a lot of your programs but this one is actually quite surprising from someone with your philosophy.
The name of this channel should be ‘The Anti-Christian.’ Seth does not present any argument for a naturalistic theory, or evidence for abiogenesis. So no, he is not ‘thinking’ at all. Ha. Ha just invites guests who have never for themselves ‘thought’ about why they believed in God, and are now beginning the process of thinking, which should have begun in adolescence. This channel is about bashing Christianity, not about the reasoning for atheism.
So, maybe somewhere down the road, Seth will himself begin ‘thinking’ about the REALLY important question - Did this universe, and life, come to be without the existence of a creator? If Seth has gone through that very thorough and exhaustive process, it would be nice for him to share about it. Until then, I must conclude he still hasn’t really begun ‘thinking.’ He’s just…feeling.
0
x-x=0
x=x
therefore something can logically come from nothing.
@@alistairmackintosh9412 Ha, you’re serious? No, sorry, that is illogical. 😳
@@mikehawes2 Show the error.
@@alistairmackintosh9412 If x=something, and 0=nothing, then the correct equation would be 0+x=x. But then, x must first exist before x can exist. What you are proposing is 0=x, which is incorrect.
@@mikehawes2You haven't shown an error.
TCM is real. Its more of a long term tuning of health rather than immediate like western medicine. You can't test the effect with one episode.
I’m quite sure all they’re saying is there are some woo folk in this space: TCM proper (meditation) is about lifestyle & presence of mind/mindfulness and less about health/medicine. Period.
@@christopherhamilton3621 not really, it was the main treatment program for korea, chinese and japan for thousands of years. Its actually works as proper medicine as well. I think that most that made it to the west are snake oil seller though.
What about Jordan Peterson? Snake oil salesman? More complex than that?
That's easy - he's a complex snake oil salesman :-)
You need some snake oil dressing for your word salad? JP is your man.
Just a re-packaged Deepak Chopra
As a Chiropractor, I assure you, not all Chiropractors will make claims like this. I implore you to get some balanced, more practical, view of my profession.
Do you practice the gonstead method? That's the only chiropractor I'll go to. Cheers
@@hailsagan8886 Not specifically Gonstead. However, Gonstead is primarily based on mechanics of the structures. Most Chiros, and myself practice based on similar premises to restore(as much as possible) structural and mechanical integrity of the body.
I do not chase down symptoms as much as aid patients in their ability to function and live life.
My father, who died in the 20th century, used to think chiropractors performed abortions back in the day. Was this true?
@@rembrandt972ify I dont know about the abortion question. Doubtful, but dont know any Chiropractic colleges that taught such.
Thanks
Tell me you haven't read Kennedy's "The Real Anthony Fauci" without saying your haven't read it.
How do you sleep when your whole world is boogeymen?
Kennedy who? What research did this "Kennedy" do to write the book? What sources were listed?
I have a feeling, that the book is toilet paper with a cover, just like the bible
Eric Clapton and Van Morrison ruined themselves for me. They may be musical geniuses, but I just can't listen to them anymore. They are indirectly responsible (probably) for many deaths.
The dude has a Go Science penant next to a Ukraine flag. Pretty sure the disconnect in this one is gonna be REAL significant.
Get a good guest.
So you listened to him?
When you only watch corporate news...