@@Breifcaseguy1 Only put a couple in your deck then. Having some over a land that will enter tapped will improve your deck and as long as you've got enough colours from other sources too then you can mostly avoid the downside of losing life, especially on the later turns. There are reasons to not play them, like if you're playing too many utility lands that don't give you multiple colours, but that's where you turn to other lands. What the pain lands do is serve as a better shock land for decks that aren't doing the whole fetch lands for ultimate consistency (but at the cost of life).
@@Breifcaseguy1 it's an untapped dual in the early game. Then it becomes a colorless painless source later. It does exactly what a dual land wants to do. Fix your mana early. And on curve
@@chrismarlow9585 "No worthwhile reward is easily gained.You can sign in blood, or you can spend your life imagining what might have been yours. There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead."
Pain lands being D seems ridiculous. You're happy to fetch into a shock land for 3 life but not happy to pay usually less than three life to a pain land? They're not the only fixing in your deck so you can avoid paying the life a good amount of the time. Just don't go jamming all 10, but having a few is safe and makes them easy to avoid.
I'm an hour into the video and the pain lands haven't come up yet while the checklands and innistrad lands and cycling lands and snow duals have come up. How can that even be right?
Tomer and seth seem to value basic types super high. I can see it If you play a full set of fetches in every deck, but most people dont have that kind of budget. You absolutely should play pains if your deck has an even slightly suboptimal manabase.
The thing that gets me about shock lands is that they were given names so that could be put into any set in the future (i.e. it's not a "Rakdos Blood Crypt," is a Blood Crypt!), but outside of premium printings like Expeditions from Zenidkar or the Secret Lair, they have only ever been reprinted in Ravnica sets.
At least they've reprinted them enough times that they're reasonably affordable. I think the biggest mistake WotC ever made was removing the true duals from Ice Age, and then they went even further by putting them on the reserved list.
Agreed, I think that can be applied to a number of cards. There are so many cards that are almost identical and I don't see the need to have 4 of the same thing with difft names 🤷
Secret lair was undeniably good value at the time, just a sadly short order period. And they are in unfinity at least, which brings future prospects for them.
@@lordofgarbageprogenitoroft4147 I believe they said it's 1/24 in a draft booster to have a shock so idk how that compares to other dual cycles but there will likely be plenty
When they kept talking about Opposition Agent stealing fetchland activations I just thought about how useless all that red mana would be when they get hit with a Blood Moon, they even made fun of the guy who runs a ton of basics when he's the only one who might survive such a scenario.
i dont understand crim and seth rating pain lands so low. theyre untapped dual lands that cost like 2 life a game at most. theyre the first lands i would recommend new players get bc theyre cheap and require nothing of you, and I still play one or two of them in my 4-5 color cedh decks.
and there is your answer, in your cedh decks. it is a pretty known fact that many cards that are great in cedh are bad in casual edh for the simple fact of 2 life will matter more in casual edh where you will most likely lose to combat damage unlike in cedh where the whole goal is to combo win and life totals dont matter be it 1 life or 1,000,000.
@@atk9989 ignore the cedh part. He’s got a point. Most the time you only Need the fixing 2-4 times a game. Honestly I need to run these more. Biggest issue is the fetchable lands push them out. Easy A in 2-3 colors though.
@@atk9989 i included that to say how theyre great purchases for new players bc they scale so well from low power to high. Untapped duals have always had either a cost or an etb tapped restriction (aside from ABU), and for duals without an etb restriction, the cost on these is super low. Fetches, shocks, and ancient tomb are all still good in casual. These *usually* cost less life than any of those, and obviously aren't as good, but they're also less than a dollar.
@@atk9989 - They don't suddenly become bad outside the context of cEDH though. They're mentioning that because they're _viable_ in cEDH, but saying that indicates they're not good in casual is like saying ABURS duals are only good in combo decks because they're used in cEDH. I'd argue that pain lands are even _better_ in the casual context though because if you're not relying entirely on fetching, they're effectively just shocks with potentially less life loss. The vast majority of the time you're tapping them for colorless, and when you need the color, 1 life is a negligible cost compared to ETB tapped. In decks you're trying to optimize with fetching, even then, if you're in 2-3 colors and have extra slots that don't _need_ to be fetchable, these are a great option. They're like, my #2 pick for non-fetchable duals after the bond lands.
@@KingBobXVI The issue with pain lands is that they fall off with the number of colours in your deck where fixing is more crucial. Outside of budget (just use proxies), the pain lands just aren’t playable once you get to 4-5C decks as you’re far less likely to find the colour you need to stop you from pinging yourself. I would also argue they’re not necessary in 2-colour decks as you can run 30 basics and still not hurt for fixing. I honestly think their slow land assessment was a bit more egregious. Outside of CEDH the overwhelming majority of the game is played after turn two, at which point they’re untapped duals with no downside beyond being unfetchable. A-tier, easy.
Holy hell, how can you rate pain lands at D, they are incredible even on casual tables, most of the time it is a colourless land that can help you manafix for one life. That's crazy for me to think they are bad. They might look bad, but they are pretty incredible. It is unconditional! The pain doesn't add up AT ALL, you will lose like 2 life average at max. I agree with Tomer on fix lands. What's really awkward is when it is the only source of a colour you need, so lets say you have two islands and this and you want to cast a red one mana spell such as Red elemental blast or just bolt and now you have to pay two mana. They can be quite awkward, pain lands are defo way better.
At casual tables, guildgates are good. Tempo literally only matters if the meta is so aggressive that playing first can be a game-determinative advantage. At a casual table, shock lands come in tapped 70% of the time, or even more. Because not every deck needs to bluff a game-winning instant every round in order to avoid the game ending on round 5. That's what makes it casual.
Pain lands a D or C? I don't know about that one. It's a colored dual land that enters untapped 100% of the time. You're more likely to have your bond land enter tapped than these to not be fully functional (1 life or lower left- and even then it taps for colorless). I think they're easy Bs at least
Early game, you pay the life with no real worry. From turn 3-4 onwards, you've likely got other colored lands that don't cost life to tap for those colors, so can just use the pain ones for the generic part of the cost with no worry. They're an A, for sure
A random note on the pain lands, they're the best tri-lands for decks where Colorless is actually one of your three colors. Very few dual lands enter untapped, tap for C, and also tap for 2 other colors. Not very many of those decks, but if you are trying to generate C, I think they're very worth playing.
Bounce lands are also great early game for reanimator decks! Play them on turn two and discard your Void Winnower or whatever to hand size and animate it the following turn. Sometimes people forego playing their first land to be able to discard their threat. Bounce lands let you discard early without missing your land drop!
i run it in my tayova deck,it gives me an extra land drop which is more landfall triggers and card draw. the deck is also running ashaya and kodama of the west as hidden commanders and the bounce lands actually go infinite with either of them after just a bit of setup.
I run the Azorius one in my Lavinia, Azorius Renegade deck, as well as Coral Atoll and Karoo to keep my land count low and make Balance effects better.
Seth in one sentence - "I don't like the innistrad slow lands because they come into play tapped turn 1 and two" - two minutes later regarding pain lands "I don't care for them coming into play untapped because usually we can just play a tap land on turn one no problem". Innistrad slow lands are incredible, literally untapped the entirety of the game except turn one and two, the points of the game where tapped lands matter the least.
Innistrad slow lands are in my mind strictly better than the checks now. Theres 1 realistic turn of difference where a check can come in untapped and a slow land can't, but the slow lands have the upside of always coming in untapped on t3, where in dual heavy decks theres a chance a check won't. In my mind they are the best duals for commander after the battlebond lands.
Slow lands really shine in my big dumb 5-color Ur-Dragon because they don't depend on other land types, and my curve is so high that the first couple turns aren't as vital. I don't have the budget to run all the shocks and fetches. I'd give them a solid A. Unless your deck is hyper-competitive and needs to curve out in 3 turns, they're great in any 2-5 color deck.
fr, and the fact he thinks the battle lands are better than check and innistrad lands is so silly when the battle lands will enter tapped a majority of the game for him, given he says he plays such a few amount of basics. And at the point of the game where they do enter untapped, their primary utility would be to play it as your land per turn, rather than fetching, since you can fetch at the end of your opponent's turn and have a tapped land effectively enter untapped.
One thing with Snow Duals is that fetchable enemy duals are very scarce. There are shocks, OG and snow. That's it. So I run them in any enemy color decks!
All this showed me is I need to play more blood moons and nonbasic hate cards. Even in three color deck I nearly play 20 basics. Need put some fear into these nonbasic land players.
Tomer I used to run the show lands all the time even in my lower budget lists. However over time the amount of time they come in untapped is so low that I started cutting them for either a basic(most likely) or a "powerful" tapped land instead and I would say that a temple qualifies. I wish they were better but for some reason they just never seem to pan out.
@@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai I disagree but see where you're coming from. Typically speaking, turn 3+ the show lands are tapped lands. You don't normally have that many lands in your hand by turn 3 if your mana base is good.
1) Richard is right: they are trippin' about pain lands. Rationally, after original duals, shocks, battlebond lands and fetch, they're better than all other dual options. 2) The crew overvalues the benefits of a dual being fetchable. Basics are fetchable and enter the battlefield untapped. Unless I have snow/cycling synergies, there's no way I'd play a tapped fetchable dual over a basic. 3) Seth overvalues MDFCs. When he uses a full card to get rid of Skyscanner, that is a like stripmining a bounceland. Yes, you have a gotcha feel-good moment, but you're one step closer to losing the war because this is a multiplayer format and you wasted a full card for nothing. I expect the stats episode showing Seth with a lower win rate than usual, and he should question his excessive use of MDFCs for that.
eh i feel people are under counting the value of stripmining a bounce land you're hitting them alot harder than you think because as an example say its turn 3 and you're the first player and you play your stripmine for your 3rd land and don't have a good 3 drop but have a second good 2 drop so drop that, then any other player plays a 2 drop maybe or doesn't because maybe they don't have one and so without casting anything bounces one of their 2 lands back to hand for the bounce land then you stripmine them, well now you start turn 4 with 2 lands and can be on your 3rd land again with your land for turn where as they now start turn 4 with 1 land and have to play their 2nd land back for turn. you go back 1 turn to set them back 2 turns.
@@atk9989 The analysis is correct and it would be a perfectly sound plan in 1v1. The issue is that in multiplayer, this move puts you one land/turn behind the other two opponents, and you've made an enemy for the entirety of the game. You are guaranteed that if that player cannot catch up to win, they will at the minimum catch up to make you lose with them.
The pain lands are great. I'd rather lose some life than have a tapped land. I dont know how they have so few basics in two color decks. Somebody needs to play blood moon or ruination
My favorite part of the reveal lands is the name: Wizards gives generic names to lands it expects to reprint often. Fetches are setting agnostic so they can go on Zendikar or Tarkir or Dominaria. When they first created the reveal lands in Shadows over innistrad they had names like Port Town or Game Trail which means Wizards expected them to be a hit. Then they finally complete the cycle four years later and they come up with a brand new lore thing called a snarl that is incredibly cosmically specific to Arcavios. The lands were such a flop they went from being designed to go anywhere to being shackled to a single plane in a way that's physically impossible to change.
I'm with Tomer on basics. Basics should be given more credit: a LOT of dual lands still come in tapped with either tough conditions to be untapped or just don't come in untapped at all. And idk about you, but having as many untapped lands as possible is super important to play on curve
My take: they're called SNARLS for a reason. They give you the illusion of being untapped lands when you always top deck them one turn too late. At least Guildgates can win the game via Maze's End. Seth is right. They're the worst modern legal rare land cycle, and worse than some commons as well. F.
I do think for what it's worth Fetch Lands are by far the best cycle of duals. They are essentially S+ tier. Not only are they more than just dual lands as they can essentially be any color, they have so many synergies involved.
The best thing about fetchlands is that you can keep it open until the last minute to grab an untapped land if you need the mana, or get a tapped one if you don't but could use more fixing. Main reason I hope WotC finishes the Tango (Battle) and Bicycles soon.
@@Coren024 The best thing about fetchlands is they can be any color of mana, including a land that taps for 3 different colors. Then aside from that there is the point that they work really well with sorts of cards, both cards that can play or return things from the GY, or cards that let you look at the top card of your library like Courser of Kruphix or Sensei's Top. They are just downright busted cards. No other cycle of lands is in the same tier.
Tomer is wrong about the Snarls. He needs to watch an episode of Budget Magic or two, because Seth's hatred of these things is hard earned and justified by the many, many, many times he's been burned by them.
Temples scrying has been more relevant for me than a snarl ever would. Snarls are garbage. When I first started playing magic and trying modern I tried them for budget purposes in a Green White humans and put them in the bulk rare box not long after that lol.
Filter lands are really underrated. I think people just have issues counting coloured mana but if you "train" yourself to do that it's really easy to do. I think all filter lands at least B tier
19:40 Seth revealing that the Commander Crash crew are in dire need of someone to start playing cards like Ruination, From the Ashes, or Wave of Vitriol because from the sounds of it, none of them are prepared for it.
Even Price of Progress would be devastating. Some games they have about 10+ lands out. 2 mana 20 damage per opponent? Or in combination with a damage double or triple spell.
I feel like if they doubled down on untapped lands they’d realize how much their gameplay would speed up. For me, a tapped land had to come with a very powerful ability to make it worth it.
Land tax is a real source of card advantage in like boros. Loot them away and get real cards. Alternatively it's also a source of ramp because once you get Sun Titan or Reclamation or any other land reanimation out you have like six basics in your graveyard for targets. My favorite interaction though is Planar Birth. A sorcery for 1W that brings all basic lands from all graveyards to the battlefield tapped under their owner's control. Most opponents won't have any meanwhile you've been filling your graveyard all game. If you build around land tax, what you should because Lotus Fields and bounce lands do similar things, the discarding hand size is explicitly a good thing.
Personally I really dislike playing fetches off colour. They are clearly intended as the colours they fetch, but they slipped through on a technicality (same for Urborg and Yavimaya). I won't complain when I see them pop-up at a table, but it just makes a little sad when they do show up that way. Maybe that's just me getting old :P.
The midnight hunt "slow" lands are amazing. they either enter untapped, or you're playing them very early in the game. They're really only bad on turn 2. If you play them turn 1, you haven't lost too much tempo and you can still ramp on 2. Solid A+/S-
You really shouldn’t play a bad dual land just because it has basic land types. You only need two of each colour of fetchable land. If you’re fetching to fix, then you’ll retrieve a tier one dual of the colour you need, not your tier three version of the dual you already have in play. Already have all your fetchable dual lands? Well, you probably have some basics left. Or at least Tomer does.
no love (or hate) for the Odyssey lands? in 2-color, unless you have a lot of smallpox/counterspell-like costed cards I feel like they are great fixing. similar, but not as good as the filter lands
They are great and almost never let me down in any deck. Definitely solid A, I play them even in 5c. People should really try them out and count how many times they screw them, it’d almost never happen.
Personally, I think we all need to run more basics. It's so surprising to hear you all have 3-5 basics in your decks. Some of us aren't trying to break the bank with decks builds. It sounds like Tomer has the right idea.
The cast seriously needs to run more basics. They're better than half these duals. Also innistrad slow lands are better than checks at this point. There is only 1 turn, turn 2 where a check might ETB untapped and a slow land won't, but there is a world where you play untyped lands turn 1 and 2, where a turn 3 the slow land will enter untapped and a check won't. IMO innistrad slow lands have entirely replaced checks in my decks (especially when you consider the more untyped duals you run the worse checks are), and are the 5th best dual land cycle in commander after fetches, OG duals, shocks, and battlebond lands.
To add on to Richard's point about fetch lands being good in mono-color decks Green has Life from the Loam and regrowth effects, White has sun titan effects, Blue has mystic sanctuary, Red has Dwarven mine and storm stuff that wants to thin the land count for storm turns and some impulse draws, Black has so many graveyard and sacrifice shenanigan's. Fetch lands from a power perspective can honestly be really good in mono color decks.
i dont know many situations where i would be happy to regrowth a fetch land out of my grave for 2 mana instead of holding it for pretty much any decent creature, artifact, protection, or removal effect. mono green has so many ramp spells that im not wasting a recovery card to ramp unless i have to and if i really have to id bet id still have a better target than the fetch land.
@@atk9989 life from the loam is the main thing, but the regrowth/bala ged recovery tech is only an added bonus. Also because there’s so much ramp in Green I find deck thinning out lands in especially useful so I can get to my creatures etc faster when I’m drawing cards. Fetches in mono color definitely aren’t great don’t get me wrong, but if the support system for them already exists adding them will make a deck better. Many of the cards and strategies mono color decks play could benefit from the addition of fetch lands.
Plus if you run any escape cards, or delirium, or threshold, or are running a goyf-esque effect. There's enough graveyard matters cards that you are probably running one or two of the good ones. Like Red has the escape Ox which I can see being generically good in mono red.
I know fetchlands aren't color specific, but it just seems cheezy to me that you can run certain fetchlands that can get land types that you can't have in your deck. I get that they can still be good, but I think you should only be able to use fetchlands that can get lands that fit your commander’s colors. No fetchlands in monocolor imo
I usually play 9-11 basics in my 2 color decks and it's becoming harder and harder to find room for more duals and utility lands without taking them out. But I don't want to go below that threshold and I'm finding myself trying to slot more back in. It's like I'm trying to serve myself an amount of green beans that I need, but not more than I want and never feel like I find the balance.
I think the tainted cycle is underrated in the right decks. Some of my decks are mostly black splashing another color or two and they are awesome budget picks there.
I am surprised by their discourse on Basics in multi colour. I believe with unwavering certainty that you need basics in every deck, because there is plenty of non-basic hate out there. Examples include Wasteland, Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Price of Progress. And when your non-basic fixing lands get shot off, you either rely on Basics or mana rocks to let you continue playing the game, and everyone should know there's plenty of artifact removal.
I agree with Richard on pain lands. Pain lands are super good. If you don't need the color, just add colorless. The life loss isn't that bad, and always coming in untapped is awesome.
Why did you only do cycles? There are at least 5 lands that tap for all the mana you need that you should play before most of the discussed ones. For example Path of Ancestry is a solid A.
I think Snarls are okay and not that bad. D is a bit unfair and they deserve a C imo, because they are still better than straight up tap lands, except for temples if your deck cares a lot about top deck manipulation. Judging from their power level, they seem more like uncommons or commons though. The biggest feel bad about them is that they are so weak for rare cards, imo.
Well Tomer wanted to know what I thought about Snarls in two color decks. I would legit tear our all my finger and toenails with rusty pliers before playing a single snarl in ANY deck, so I personally think F tier is too high for them. Toilet paper tier.
I think the idea that Bi Cycle lands and Snow lands are B's and Pains are D's is absolutely, nearly objectively incorrect. Idk what Seth and Crim are on.
ranking the midnight hunt lands low and the battlebond lands high is ridiculous. "slow" lands are almost never going to come into play tapped, and battlebond lands are almost never going to come into play tapped. neither have basic land type. both are dual lands. I actually think you're less likely to be impacted by a slow land turn 2 than you are by a dead draw tapped land late game in commander that you couldn't even fetch or whatever. it's pretty ridiculous to rate them differently from one another
I'm no expert but if your snarls forces you to run an extra ten basics over colorless or on color utility lands or MDFCs, then the bonus value (over a basic) of mana fixing doesn't seem worth it.
In my experience with Lathril (BG elves), Tainted Wood is fine. When it isn't turned on, it still comes in untapped. Mana dorks aplenty help with color fixing, and eventually a swamp shows up. It's not the best dual but it's playable. Necroblossom Snarl is hot garbage and I cut it for a basic. Reason: with a low curve and lotsa dorks, elves run fewer lands, and many of those are non-basic, so only 13 cards in the deck turn it on. Compare to Gilt-Leaf Palace which is turned on by 39 cards. Snarl is basically a guildgate. Port Town is slightly better in my Ranar UW deck with more lands and more basics at about 19 cards, but I should probably cut it.
One more point on the snow duals - they're allowed to cast Arcum's Astrolabe, a card banned in Modern, Legacy, and Pauper! Totally busted! I love Horizon lands but they do hurt! You ever use Boseiju and Hall of the Bandit Lord for random mana every turn? Your life total goes down quick! (Yavimaya and Urborg are the best crutches!)
Did I miss them mentioning the OG Kamigawa ones? They come in untapped, tap for colourless. Or you can tap them for one of two coloured mana. The drawback is that if you tap them for coloured mana this way, they don't untap during your next untap step. But they've got really sweet art by John Avon! See Cloudcrest Lake
Yeah, it's cute the whole constantly refering to them as ABU duals, and then showing a Revised dual. Nice job. Nobody trolls like you guys, not even the Flinthorn Elf Gang. ABUR duals are pretty solid though, but if you aren't running Fetches, they aren't very special, and later game they can be worse than a Temple ironically, since they don't do anything but mana. I'm not a big fan of Triomes atm, but I don't run fetches really. My Sun Titan hopes and prays for a Myriad Landscape in the yard, not a Fetch for 1! Dream big! Seriously, in Azorius getting a Myriad Landscape back a few times feels really good, even if it's costing mana. Power level-wise, something coming in tapped is infinitely worse, but for infinitely worse it still feels pretty good, and my land count can go nuts. Arcane Sanctum makes me sad inside. I feel like these are all terrible, but I build openly unusual mana bases regularly. I think you could justify it in a low budget deck, but that is pretty much it, non-green low budget decks. Lands with requirements like Drowned Catacombs are magnets for bad hands, but they aren't technically bad cards, there are just so many permutations where you end up with no basics and an otherwise fine hand, where CIPT comes up and is annoying. I run them in my cEDH deck, but I run 18 basics in a 3 colour deck where I can afford to have them come in tapped sometimes. New Innistrad duals are surprisingly good, but they aren't cEDH relevant usually, since they require a higher land count. I don't run them in my cEDH deck because I'm already running basics and the check lands, and those are the ones I could cut for them. They are worse than pain lands, worse than check lands if you run enough basics, but they are great cards. TBH, there aren't even many lands that are a lot better, it's so easy to make them come in untapped. Shocks get annoying if you pay too often, *shocking* as it sounds, maybe my games are too grindy? Battle Lands are terrible IMHO, but for a fetchable dual (that can work with various non-Fetchland methods of fetching typed lands) they are playable. I think they're fine if you're in 2 colours, but IMHO it's usually a Gate, so if you wouldn't usually run a Gate, don't run these. You need SO many basics to reliably have them on early, ~28 basics gives you good odds of having ~2 lands in your opener, so keep that in mind in faster metas. I like the Guild Bounce lands so much I even use Karoo lands sometimes. A land that taps for 2 can be very relevant in some decks. Guildless Commons is nifty too, but I wouldn't play those in a deck with a higher land count, they feel best without tons of other lands in my experience. Pain Lands are openly good, at least an A, and no, they aren't all cheap, some of the Ally ones are pricey. Pain lands often deal no damage to you in a game, it's like you guys have never played with these, they are playable everywhere they are legal ffs. Tainted Lands are fine in a deck that is 2 colours and for some reason is mostly Black in mana base. They are very so-so in Commander, where he singleton nature combines very poorly with the swamp requirement. To 'almost always have a swamp' you need to be running 14 Swamps, which is WAY more than most people are running, they are that questionable. While Snarls are ungodly bad, Depletion Lands are probably the worst rare duals ever, from Ice Age, also home to 'still played in Vintage sometimes' Pain lands. Snarls are horrible, some of my least favoured lands, you need ~7 'hits' of each type to have decent odds of getting it untapped. I had the same feeling as Seth, where calling them Snarls was open trolling by WotC, but I felt I was being paranoid. At least they didn't call them Tease lands, because they taunt us with visions of a Batlebond Land, yet dash them quite expertly by almost always coming tapped after turn ~3. Signet Lands are secretly some of the best duals, they add value to your colourless ramp like Sol Ring. It can rarely be worse than a Lorwyn Filter, but it can also be better early, so they are niche cEDH lands. Not generally as good as a true dual, but easily an A, probably a narrow S by virtue of enabling so much stuff with their filter. Turn 1 or 2 plays of a +3 colour Commander can be helped by these. They go down in value if you don't run Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring. They kinda suck in decks that run lots of efficient interaction, where you're like 'Welp, I Swan Songed, might as well Swords something with the W', which feels bad, but early plays in decks that need fixing and run the fast mana to power these make them reasonable.
The triomes are definitely not perfect, at best they’re an A with fetches, a B in green and a D otherwise. People rate them high because they’re new, trendy and think everyone runs all fetches in all their decks which is very far from the truth. Signet lands are great in casual meta, definitely A as they fix you well and you don’t play many 1 drop instants anyway. Yes painlands are S and they provide colorless which could be a good upside. I played thousands of games and they cost around 1 life every 2 games, which is nothing. Just don’t run all of them but like 2-3 per deck is just perfect. Bounce lands: I only play them in Yedora (guildless commons) otherwise they’re horrible as they enter tap. Even in reanimator they’re very, very bad as you have to wait a whole turn cycle and risk opponent reanimation spells before you can. They’re among the worst lands in my opinion. Maybe in decks with less than 34 lands they could be significant, but I don’t think so. Check lands: I don’t play them outside of cedh and 2 colors decks. They enter tap almost a third of the time in casual meta even with fetches, ravlands and triomes. Slow lands: S in casual they’re pretty much non-fetchable duals. They’re perfect I run them all in all my decks. In cedh though they’re F, maybe D. Battle lands are bad yes you shouldn’t run them. They’re probably a C with fetches, F otherwise. You’re also right with tainted lands, I only play the dimir one in a very heavy black focus deck.
I'm so happy Richard brought up the average vote for the pain lands. I value them highest after abu duals, shocks, fetches; probably around the same tier as battebond lands. The fact that they are ALWAYS untapped is so good!! There are so few fixing lands that unconditionally etb untapped. Also, being able to tap for colorless is even more of an upside with all the colorless mana requirements from Oath of the Gatewatch!! These turn on Eldrazi Displacer!! I can't express how much I like these lands. I run Karplusan Forest, but not Grove of the Burnwillows, in my Gruul deck, but I'm interested in how they compare. Losing one life seems better to me than each opponent gaining 1, but technically Grove can tap for colored if I'm at one life, so technically it's even less conditional... I might try out Grove, since usually I win by Exponential Growthing my board a bunch of times so the incidental life gain might be less relevant. The shadows/snarl lands are pretty bad imo, I would rather run a basic in literally any deck, unless there's some... revealing cards synergy? Great discussion thanks for sharing!!
A deck doctor episode where you all choose maybe your most loosey goosey decks and one of your oldest decks and you all talk about decision points in building them would be very entertaining.
I actually don't my run fetches or hardly any shocks (lol definitely no OG duals) in my five color dragons. I have so many ramp cards that search for basics I don't need them. I have a couple triomes and a few shocks for stuff like Three visits. My deck functions fine and never have mana issues. The trick is building mostly around a wedge and dabbling in the other colors. Also the battlebond lands (glad I bought them before they spiked) are clutch except for one on one in which I call them sad tapland.
Some real MTGO mindset on display here, where you can make a deck and not have to spend $200 on your mana base. I have to run like 24 basics in most of my decks because I don't want to spend half the cost of the deck on do-nothing lands.
That's perfectly valid, which is why we included prices. If you're playing $5 "C" or "D" lands, you might want to consider some of the $0.20 "A" or "B" lands. There are a lot of
Our full rankings: m.imgur.com/a/T3aHNrm
Would love to see the graph averaged out and put in the tier list format
Y'all missed 2 cycles: the storage counter lands and the jumpstart "choose your 2nd color" lands. Would be curious where they'd fall
Why do the average group ratings of bond lands is higher than triomes if triomes scores higher individually for everyone?
I’m with Richard, I am floored that you guys rated the pain lands so low, they are definitely A’s that was a major shock to see
Use them long enough they become a major shock.
@@Breifcaseguy1 Only put a couple in your deck then. Having some over a land that will enter tapped will improve your deck and as long as you've got enough colours from other sources too then you can mostly avoid the downside of losing life, especially on the later turns. There are reasons to not play them, like if you're playing too many utility lands that don't give you multiple colours, but that's where you turn to other lands. What the pain lands do is serve as a better shock land for decks that aren't doing the whole fetch lands for ultimate consistency (but at the cost of life).
@@Breifcaseguy1 it's an untapped dual in the early game. Then it becomes a colorless painless source later. It does exactly what a dual land wants to do. Fix your mana early. And on curve
@@chrismarlow9585 "No worthwhile reward is easily gained.You can sign in blood, or you can spend your life imagining what might have been yours. There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead."
I think pain lands are very middle of the road. I play them in two color decks or three color decks without intensive mana costs.
Pain lands being D seems ridiculous. You're happy to fetch into a shock land for 3 life but not happy to pay usually less than three life to a pain land? They're not the only fixing in your deck so you can avoid paying the life a good amount of the time. Just don't go jamming all 10, but having a few is safe and makes them easy to avoid.
The green ones are epic in a 5C deck! You gotta drop that Bird!
I'm with Richard 100% about the pain lands being great.
Ya they are tripping on the pain lands they are great - esp for their price.
I'm an hour into the video and the pain lands haven't come up yet while the checklands and innistrad lands and cycling lands and snow duals have come up. How can that even be right?
Eh, I put em low because my meta likes longer games and I build color intensive decks. Plus not have land types is a big hit for me.
Pain lands are so good, lol how long are their games lasting to where the life loss actually matters?
Tomer and seth seem to value basic types super high. I can see it If you play a full set of fetches in every deck, but most people dont have that kind of budget. You absolutely should play pains if your deck has an even slightly suboptimal manabase.
The thing that gets me about shock lands is that they were given names so that could be put into any set in the future (i.e. it's not a "Rakdos Blood Crypt," is a Blood Crypt!), but outside of premium printings like Expeditions from Zenidkar or the Secret Lair, they have only ever been reprinted in Ravnica sets.
At least they've reprinted them enough times that they're reasonably affordable. I think the biggest mistake WotC ever made was removing the true duals from Ice Age, and then they went even further by putting them on the reserved list.
Agreed, I think that can be applied to a number of cards. There are so many cards that are almost identical and I don't see the need to have 4 of the same thing with difft names 🤷
Secret lair was undeniably good value at the time, just a sadly short order period. And they are in unfinity at least, which brings future prospects for them.
@@MTGVania Aren't the unfinity shocks like 1 per box and they only come in the collectors boxes or something awful like that?
@@lordofgarbageprogenitoroft4147 I believe they said it's 1/24 in a draft booster to have a shock so idk how that compares to other dual cycles but there will likely be plenty
Biases present:
“Does it go well in Grixis?”
“Does it go well with Mono-white?”
“Does it combo with my 15 Basic lands?”
“Does it die to Strip Mine?”
They said budget wouldn't be a matter of discussion then spent half the time discussing budget.
They didn’t base rankings on budget, but telling us how much they costs saves us time trying to build decks
So... lotus field best mana fixing land confirmed?
My takeaway from this video: Someone needs to put the fear of Blood Moon back into these people
Even Price of Progress too. 2 mana 10-20 damage per opponent, maybe add in a damage double or triple spell.
Sigh...... blood moon
When they kept talking about Opposition Agent stealing fetchland activations I just thought about how useless all that red mana would be when they get hit with a Blood Moon, they even made fun of the guy who runs a ton of basics when he's the only one who might survive such a scenario.
I mean that's why I run boseiju in every deck now. Who cares about blood moon when cycling boseiju is an option?
@@triopsate3 That doesn't actually work. If none of your lands tap for green mana, you can't cycle boseiju
Utility land tier list would be sick!
that would be a 10 year video.
Watching crim try to name a non-grixis check land made my day. Was SO funny 🤣🤣🤣
I love how Zof Consumption has become the go-to to show off on screen, whenever they mention MDFCs
The argument "there are SO many better..." is always hilarious as they sit and review the few other options that actually exist😂
i dont understand crim and seth rating pain lands so low. theyre untapped dual lands that cost like 2 life a game at most. theyre the first lands i would recommend new players get bc theyre cheap and require nothing of you, and I still play one or two of them in my 4-5 color cedh decks.
and there is your answer, in your cedh decks. it is a pretty known fact that many cards that are great in cedh are bad in casual edh for the simple fact of 2 life will matter more in casual edh where you will most likely lose to combat damage unlike in cedh where the whole goal is to combo win and life totals dont matter be it 1 life or 1,000,000.
@@atk9989 ignore the cedh part. He’s got a point. Most the time you only Need the fixing 2-4 times a game. Honestly I need to run these more.
Biggest issue is the fetchable lands push them out. Easy A in 2-3 colors though.
@@atk9989 i included that to say how theyre great purchases for new players bc they scale so well from low power to high. Untapped duals have always had either a cost or an etb tapped restriction (aside from ABU), and for duals without an etb restriction, the cost on these is super low. Fetches, shocks, and ancient tomb are all still good in casual. These *usually* cost less life than any of those, and obviously aren't as good, but they're also less than a dollar.
@@atk9989 - They don't suddenly become bad outside the context of cEDH though. They're mentioning that because they're _viable_ in cEDH, but saying that indicates they're not good in casual is like saying ABURS duals are only good in combo decks because they're used in cEDH.
I'd argue that pain lands are even _better_ in the casual context though because if you're not relying entirely on fetching, they're effectively just shocks with potentially less life loss. The vast majority of the time you're tapping them for colorless, and when you need the color, 1 life is a negligible cost compared to ETB tapped. In decks you're trying to optimize with fetching, even then, if you're in 2-3 colors and have extra slots that don't _need_ to be fetchable, these are a great option. They're like, my #2 pick for non-fetchable duals after the bond lands.
@@KingBobXVI The issue with pain lands is that they fall off with the number of colours in your deck where fixing is more crucial. Outside of budget (just use proxies), the pain lands just aren’t playable once you get to 4-5C decks as you’re far less likely to find the colour you need to stop you from pinging yourself. I would also argue they’re not necessary in 2-colour decks as you can run 30 basics and still not hurt for fixing.
I honestly think their slow land assessment was a bit more egregious. Outside of CEDH the overwhelming majority of the game is played after turn two, at which point they’re untapped duals with no downside beyond being unfetchable. A-tier, easy.
Holy hell, how can you rate pain lands at D, they are incredible even on casual tables, most of the time it is a colourless land that can help you manafix for one life. That's crazy for me to think they are bad. They might look bad, but they are pretty incredible. It is unconditional! The pain doesn't add up AT ALL, you will lose like 2 life average at max.
I agree with Tomer on fix lands. What's really awkward is when it is the only source of a colour you need, so lets say you have two islands and this and you want to cast a red one mana spell such as Red elemental blast or just bolt and now you have to pay two mana. They can be quite awkward, pain lands are defo way better.
Life is just a resource. It only really matters when you're actually about to lose.
At casual tables, guildgates are good. Tempo literally only matters if the meta is so aggressive that playing first can be a game-determinative advantage. At a casual table, shock lands come in tapped 70% of the time, or even more. Because not every deck needs to bluff a game-winning instant every round in order to avoid the game ending on round 5. That's what makes it casual.
Pain lands a D or C? I don't know about that one. It's a colored dual land that enters untapped 100% of the time. You're more likely to have your bond land enter tapped than these to not be fully functional (1 life or lower left- and even then it taps for colorless). I think they're easy Bs at least
Yep. Easy staple in any 2 colour deck. Makes it a B in my book
Early game, you pay the life with no real worry. From turn 3-4 onwards, you've likely got other colored lands that don't cost life to tap for those colors, so can just use the pain ones for the generic part of the cost with no worry. They're an A, for sure
A random note on the pain lands, they're the best tri-lands for decks where Colorless is actually one of your three colors. Very few dual lands enter untapped, tap for C, and also tap for 2 other colors. Not very many of those decks, but if you are trying to generate C, I think they're very worth playing.
Bounce lands are also great early game for reanimator decks! Play them on turn two and discard your Void Winnower or whatever to hand size and animate it the following turn. Sometimes people forego playing their first land to be able to discard their threat. Bounce lands let you discard early without missing your land drop!
Run these in my Sefris deck for this exact reason.
i run it in my tayova deck,it gives me an extra land drop which is more landfall triggers and card draw. the deck is also running ashaya and kodama of the west as hidden commanders and the bounce lands actually go infinite with either of them after just a bit of setup.
@@hopposai787 west tree??
(Ik it comes out in kamigawa neon dynasty and you mean east tree)
@@3N3MYKN1GHT yes i meant east
I run the Azorius one in my Lavinia, Azorius Renegade deck, as well as Coral Atoll and Karoo to keep my land count low and make Balance effects better.
Seth in one sentence - "I don't like the innistrad slow lands because they come into play tapped turn 1 and two" - two minutes later regarding pain lands "I don't care for them coming into play untapped because usually we can just play a tap land on turn one no problem". Innistrad slow lands are incredible, literally untapped the entirety of the game except turn one and two, the points of the game where tapped lands matter the least.
Innistrad slow lands are in my mind strictly better than the checks now. Theres 1 realistic turn of difference where a check can come in untapped and a slow land can't, but the slow lands have the upside of always coming in untapped on t3, where in dual heavy decks theres a chance a check won't. In my mind they are the best duals for commander after the battlebond lands.
Slow lands really shine in my big dumb 5-color Ur-Dragon because they don't depend on other land types, and my curve is so high that the first couple turns aren't as vital. I don't have the budget to run all the shocks and fetches. I'd give them a solid A. Unless your deck is hyper-competitive and needs to curve out in 3 turns, they're great in any 2-5 color deck.
@@krotash7740 slow lands compared to check lands are better in 3c, but worse in 2c. Turn 2 matters for reliably getting off the t2 ramp.
fr, and the fact he thinks the battle lands are better than check and innistrad lands is so silly when the battle lands will enter tapped a majority of the game for him, given he says he plays such a few amount of basics. And at the point of the game where they do enter untapped, their primary utility would be to play it as your land per turn, rather than fetching, since you can fetch at the end of your opponent's turn and have a tapped land effectively enter untapped.
@Krotash it's definitely close but checks are still A material
One thing with Snow Duals is that fetchable enemy duals are very scarce. There are shocks, OG and snow. That's it. So I run them in any enemy color decks!
All this showed me is I need to play more blood moons and nonbasic hate cards. Even in three color deck I nearly play 20 basics. Need put some fear into these nonbasic land players.
Tomer I used to run the show lands all the time even in my lower budget lists. However over time the amount of time they come in untapped is so low that I started cutting them for either a basic(most likely) or a "powerful" tapped land instead and I would say that a temple qualifies. I wish they were better but for some reason they just never seem to pan out.
The Showland ARE garbage outdide of two color. I said what I said.
@@MajraMangetsu Yeah. The thing is they _are_ still fine in 2-color, though, which means they shouldn’t get a D. C feels right.
@@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai I disagree but see where you're coming from.
Typically speaking, turn 3+ the show lands are tapped lands. You don't normally have that many lands in your hand by turn 3 if your mana base is good.
1) Richard is right: they are trippin' about pain lands. Rationally, after original duals, shocks, battlebond lands and fetch, they're better than all other dual options.
2) The crew overvalues the benefits of a dual being fetchable. Basics are fetchable and enter the battlefield untapped. Unless I have snow/cycling synergies, there's no way I'd play a tapped fetchable dual over a basic.
3) Seth overvalues MDFCs. When he uses a full card to get rid of Skyscanner, that is a like stripmining a bounceland. Yes, you have a gotcha feel-good moment, but you're one step closer to losing the war because this is a multiplayer format and you wasted a full card for nothing. I expect the stats episode showing Seth with a lower win rate than usual, and he should question his excessive use of MDFCs for that.
eh i feel people are under counting the value of stripmining a bounce land you're hitting them alot harder than you think because as an example say its turn 3 and you're the first player and you play your stripmine for your 3rd land and don't have a good 3 drop but have a second good 2 drop so drop that, then any other player plays a 2 drop maybe or doesn't because maybe they don't have one and so without casting anything bounces one of their 2 lands back to hand for the bounce land then you stripmine them, well now you start turn 4 with 2 lands and can be on your 3rd land again with your land for turn where as they now start turn 4 with 1 land and have to play their 2nd land back for turn.
you go back 1 turn to set them back 2 turns.
@@atk9989 The analysis is correct and it would be a perfectly sound plan in 1v1. The issue is that in multiplayer, this move puts you one land/turn behind the other two opponents, and you've made an enemy for the entirety of the game. You are guaranteed that if that player cannot catch up to win, they will at the minimum catch up to make you lose with them.
The pain lands are great. I'd rather lose some life than have a tapped land. I dont know how they have so few basics in two color decks. Somebody needs to play blood moon or ruination
My favorite part of the reveal lands is the name: Wizards gives generic names to lands it expects to reprint often. Fetches are setting agnostic so they can go on Zendikar or Tarkir or Dominaria. When they first created the reveal lands in Shadows over innistrad they had names like Port Town or Game Trail which means Wizards expected them to be a hit. Then they finally complete the cycle four years later and they come up with a brand new lore thing called a snarl that is incredibly cosmically specific to Arcavios. The lands were such a flop they went from being designed to go anywhere to being shackled to a single plane in a way that's physically impossible to change.
I'm with Tomer on basics. Basics should be given more credit: a LOT of dual lands still come in tapped with either tough conditions to be untapped or just don't come in untapped at all. And idk about you, but having as many untapped lands as possible is super important to play on curve
We going to get scoops sippy cups and we all know snarls are the most op dual lands
My take: they're called SNARLS for a reason. They give you the illusion of being untapped lands when you always top deck them one turn too late. At least Guildgates can win the game via Maze's End.
Seth is right. They're the worst modern legal rare land cycle, and worse than some commons as well. F.
At rare, yeah, but just as a card their effect isn't bad. Guildgates with upside
I run them over gates, in 2 color with 20 basics, but that’s it.
I often find myself running a few Gates in three-color white decks, because Hold The Gates is low key awesome.
I have a 5 colored gate deck so I know Gate ramp is insane
Pain lands are amazing. They're the Mana Confluence of duals!
I do think for what it's worth Fetch Lands are by far the best cycle of duals. They are essentially S+ tier. Not only are they more than just dual lands as they can essentially be any color, they have so many synergies involved.
The best thing about fetchlands is that you can keep it open until the last minute to grab an untapped land if you need the mana, or get a tapped one if you don't but could use more fixing. Main reason I hope WotC finishes the Tango (Battle) and Bicycles soon.
@@Coren024 The best thing about fetchlands is they can be any color of mana, including a land that taps for 3 different colors. Then aside from that there is the point that they work really well with sorts of cards, both cards that can play or return things from the GY, or cards that let you look at the top card of your library like Courser of Kruphix or Sensei's Top.
They are just downright busted cards. No other cycle of lands is in the same tier.
Tomer is wrong about the Snarls. He needs to watch an episode of Budget Magic or two, because Seth's hatred of these things is hard earned and justified by the many, many, many times he's been burned by them.
Crim: "The types are nice, but I'm starting to play more MDFCs..."
Editor: "It's time for Zof Consumption"
That's my humor 😂
Temples scrying has been more relevant for me than a snarl ever would. Snarls are garbage. When I first started playing magic and trying modern I tried them for budget purposes in a Green White humans and put them in the bulk rare box not long after that lol.
Filter lands are really underrated. I think people just have issues counting coloured mana but if you "train" yourself to do that it's really easy to do.
I think all filter lands at least B tier
19:40 Seth revealing that the Commander Crash crew are in dire need of someone to start playing cards like Ruination, From the Ashes, or Wave of Vitriol because from the sounds of it, none of them are prepared for it.
As someone that has Blood Moon, Ruination, and Back to Basics in all my pods, I couldn't stop thinking about this.
Even Price of Progress would be devastating. Some games they have about 10+ lands out. 2 mana 20 damage per opponent? Or in combination with a damage double or triple spell.
I hope Phil watches these and is taking notes - would be hilarious to see a match where he just breaks out all the non-basic land hate.
1:04:04 "I play Karoo man" cracked me up XD
I feel like if they doubled down on untapped lands they’d realize how much their gameplay would speed up. For me, a tapped land had to come with a very powerful ability to make it worth it.
Tapped lands suck ass. That's true.
id argue that fetches are the best lands.
You'd be right
Land tax is a real source of card advantage in like boros. Loot them away and get real cards. Alternatively it's also a source of ramp because once you get Sun Titan or Reclamation or any other land reanimation out you have like six basics in your graveyard for targets. My favorite interaction though is Planar Birth. A sorcery for 1W that brings all basic lands from all graveyards to the battlefield tapped under their owner's control. Most opponents won't have any meanwhile you've been filling your graveyard all game. If you build around land tax, what you should because Lotus Fields and bounce lands do similar things, the discarding hand size is explicitly a good thing.
I still think the fetchlands should have color identity, it just feels weird to me.
I'm enjoying this becoming weekly
Crim (number one runner of oppoistion agent) advocating for fetch lands for "thinning" I see you
I hope Crim and Richard are playing Path of ancestry with their Alara tap lands since Path is strictly better than the tapped tri lands
Personally I really dislike playing fetches off colour. They are clearly intended as the colours they fetch, but they slipped through on a technicality (same for Urborg and Yavimaya). I won't complain when I see them pop-up at a table, but it just makes a little sad when they do show up that way. Maybe that's just me getting old :P.
The bounce lands are also going to be really good with the new kamigawa lands, along with the MDFCs
The midnight hunt "slow" lands are amazing.
they either enter untapped, or you're playing them very early in the game.
They're really only bad on turn 2. If you play them turn 1, you haven't lost too much tempo and you can still ramp on 2.
Solid A+/S-
You really shouldn’t play a bad dual land just because it has basic land types. You only need two of each colour of fetchable land. If you’re fetching to fix, then you’ll retrieve a tier one dual of the colour you need, not your tier three version of the dual you already have in play. Already have all your fetchable dual lands? Well, you probably have some basics left. Or at least Tomer does.
Actually in 3 color deck you can only run 9/10 of the fetches
You can run all ten, but one of them does nothing but shuffle your deck for one life.
WOTC prints a new dual-land: flip a coin, if you win it enters untapped if you lose it enters tapped.
Seth: “still better than the Snarls”
I ABSOLUTELY Agree with Crim, the Slowland are AMAZING in my opinion.
no love (or hate) for the Odyssey lands? in 2-color, unless you have a lot of smallpox/counterspell-like costed cards I feel like they are great fixing. similar, but not as good as the filter lands
They are great and almost never let me down in any deck. Definitely solid A, I play them even in 5c. People should really try them out and count how many times they screw them, it’d almost never happen.
Personally, I think we all need to run more basics. It's so surprising to hear you all have 3-5 basics in your decks. Some of us aren't trying to break the bank with decks builds. It sounds like Tomer has the right idea.
For me it’s not about budget but vulnerability. One non basic Land hate card like blood moon and their decks stall.
"you can cast bala ged recovery on your fetchland to go grab another land"
Orrrr... you could play bala ged as its land side?
The cast seriously needs to run more basics. They're better than half these duals. Also innistrad slow lands are better than checks at this point. There is only 1 turn, turn 2 where a check might ETB untapped and a slow land won't, but there is a world where you play untyped lands turn 1 and 2, where a turn 3 the slow land will enter untapped and a check won't. IMO innistrad slow lands have entirely replaced checks in my decks (especially when you consider the more untyped duals you run the worse checks are), and are the 5th best dual land cycle in commander after fetches, OG duals, shocks, and battlebond lands.
To add on to Richard's point about fetch lands being good in mono-color decks Green has Life from the Loam and regrowth effects, White has sun titan effects, Blue has mystic sanctuary, Red has Dwarven mine and storm stuff that wants to thin the land count for storm turns and some impulse draws, Black has so many graveyard and sacrifice shenanigan's. Fetch lands from a power perspective can honestly be really good in mono color decks.
i dont know many situations where i would be happy to regrowth a fetch land out of my grave for 2 mana instead of holding it for pretty much any decent creature, artifact, protection, or removal effect. mono green has so many ramp spells that im not wasting a recovery card to ramp unless i have to and if i really have to id bet id still have a better target than the fetch land.
@@atk9989 life from the loam is the main thing, but the regrowth/bala ged recovery tech is only an added bonus. Also because there’s so much ramp in Green I find deck thinning out lands in especially useful so I can get to my creatures etc faster when I’m drawing cards. Fetches in mono color definitely aren’t great don’t get me wrong, but if the support system for them already exists adding them will make a deck better. Many of the cards and strategies mono color decks play could benefit from the addition of fetch lands.
Plus if you run any escape cards, or delirium, or threshold, or are running a goyf-esque effect. There's enough graveyard matters cards that you are probably running one or two of the good ones. Like Red has the escape Ox which I can see being generically good in mono red.
I know fetchlands aren't color specific, but it just seems cheezy to me that you can run certain fetchlands that can get land types that you can't have in your deck. I get that they can still be good, but I think you should only be able to use fetchlands that can get lands that fit your commander’s colors. No fetchlands in monocolor imo
Heh we are opposites. Color identity is too restrictive. I say run noble hierarch in mono green.
I don’t normally agree with Tomer, but I didn’t realize playing lots of basics was so uncommon.
I usually play 9-11 basics in my 2 color decks and it's becoming harder and harder to find room for more duals and utility lands without taking them out. But I don't want to go below that threshold and I'm finding myself trying to slot more back in. It's like I'm trying to serve myself an amount of green beans that I need, but not more than I want and never feel like I find the balance.
I think the tainted cycle is underrated in the right decks. Some of my decks are mostly black splashing another color or two and they are awesome budget picks there.
I am surprised by their discourse on Basics in multi colour. I believe with unwavering certainty that you need basics in every deck, because there is plenty of non-basic hate out there. Examples include Wasteland, Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Price of Progress. And when your non-basic fixing lands get shot off, you either rely on Basics or mana rocks to let you continue playing the game, and everyone should know there's plenty of artifact removal.
I agree with Richard on pain lands. Pain lands are super good. If you don't need the color, just add colorless. The life loss isn't that bad, and always coming in untapped is awesome.
Why did you only do cycles? There are at least 5 lands that tap for all the mana you need that you should play before most of the discussed ones. For example Path of Ancestry is a solid A.
Did they do a rainbow lands episode?
Reveal lands will always get an F from me.
Do this again, but utility lands. Lands that don't make color.
I really want them to finish the Amonkhet cycling land cycle. I have multiple enemy color sets i want them with
They took years to finish the show cycle lmao but they might finish it ya never know
I have an unexplainable gut feeling they'll finish the cycle within the next year!
Crim supporting the typeless trilands in Abzan is hilarious when Abzan has an extra fetchable triland in Murmoring Bosk.
I think Snarls are okay and not that bad. D is a bit unfair and they deserve a C imo, because they are still better than straight up tap lands, except for temples if your deck cares a lot about top deck manipulation. Judging from their power level, they seem more like uncommons or commons though. The biggest feel bad about them is that they are so weak for rare cards, imo.
I’m with Crim on the slow lands they are almost guaranteed untapped in practice.
Please finish the battle land cycles wotc
Well Tomer wanted to know what I thought about Snarls in two color decks. I would legit tear our all my finger and toenails with rusty pliers before playing a single snarl in ANY deck, so I personally think F tier is too high for them. Toilet paper tier.
I think the idea that Bi Cycle lands and Snow lands are B's and Pains are D's is absolutely, nearly objectively incorrect. Idk what Seth and Crim are on.
ranking the midnight hunt lands low and the battlebond lands high is ridiculous.
"slow" lands are almost never going to come into play tapped, and battlebond lands are almost never going to come into play tapped. neither have basic land type. both are dual lands. I actually think you're less likely to be impacted by a slow land turn 2 than you are by a dead draw tapped land late game in commander that you couldn't even fetch or whatever.
it's pretty ridiculous to rate them differently from one another
I'm no expert but if your snarls forces you to run an extra ten basics over colorless or on color utility lands or MDFCs, then the bonus value (over a basic) of mana fixing doesn't seem worth it.
In my experience with Lathril (BG elves), Tainted Wood is fine. When it isn't turned on, it still comes in untapped. Mana dorks aplenty help with color fixing, and eventually a swamp shows up. It's not the best dual but it's playable. Necroblossom Snarl is hot garbage and I cut it for a basic. Reason: with a low curve and lotsa dorks, elves run fewer lands, and many of those are non-basic, so only 13 cards in the deck turn it on. Compare to Gilt-Leaf Palace which is turned on by 39 cards. Snarl is basically a guildgate. Port Town is slightly better in my Ranar UW deck with more lands and more basics at about 19 cards, but I should probably cut it.
I think another condition you should have mentioned is decks with or without fetches. If you don't have/run fetches then half of the duels get better.
Tainted Isle + Swamp does not produce UU. Sunken Ruin + Swamp does produce UU.
I think check lands have actually gotten better, not worse, due to the higher previalence of non-basics that have basic land types.
all I learned is I should buy more Blood Moons the greed is real with these guys
Primal Order is a thing of beauty.
Seth cares so little about the 3 life that the mythic MDFCs make you lose that I’m shocked the painlands aren’t an S for him
Three colors on I run anywhere from 9-5 basics. I absolutely run all the check lands in three color decks, but not much else.
idk how Seth rates Horizon canopy as a B but give the pain lands that can tap for colourless a fucking D.
I play every untap fetch in Mono-green Azusa because I have graveyard land recursion.
I will play the bounce lands specifically in decks with graveyard synergies for the turn two discard as a plus.
I'm totally with Richard on the painlands
One more point on the snow duals - they're allowed to cast Arcum's Astrolabe, a card banned in Modern, Legacy, and Pauper! Totally busted!
I love Horizon lands but they do hurt! You ever use Boseiju and Hall of the Bandit Lord for random mana every turn? Your life total goes down quick! (Yavimaya and Urborg are the best crutches!)
I actually vomited when the reveal lands were previewed during Shadows Over Innistrad.
Coming from a straight man, tomer reacting to filter lands was the cutest thing I've ever seen.
Snarls are worse than basics. In the scope of commander even the Campus cycle is better.
Snarls are so bad lol. Worst top deck ever. How many lands is Tomer drawing?!
Did I miss them mentioning the OG Kamigawa ones? They come in untapped, tap for colourless. Or you can tap them for one of two coloured mana. The drawback is that if you tap them for coloured mana this way, they don't untap during your next untap step. But they've got really sweet art by John Avon!
See Cloudcrest Lake
Guildgates are better than Snarls, enter tapped about the same and you get to run Circuitous Route to search for them
Yeah, it's cute the whole constantly refering to them as ABU duals, and then showing a Revised dual. Nice job. Nobody trolls like you guys, not even the Flinthorn Elf Gang. ABUR duals are pretty solid though, but if you aren't running Fetches, they aren't very special, and later game they can be worse than a Temple ironically, since they don't do anything but mana.
I'm not a big fan of Triomes atm, but I don't run fetches really. My Sun Titan hopes and prays for a Myriad Landscape in the yard, not a Fetch for 1! Dream big! Seriously, in Azorius getting a Myriad Landscape back a few times feels really good, even if it's costing mana. Power level-wise, something coming in tapped is infinitely worse, but for infinitely worse it still feels pretty good, and my land count can go nuts.
Arcane Sanctum makes me sad inside. I feel like these are all terrible, but I build openly unusual mana bases regularly. I think you could justify it in a low budget deck, but that is pretty much it, non-green low budget decks.
Lands with requirements like Drowned Catacombs are magnets for bad hands, but they aren't technically bad cards, there are just so many permutations where you end up with no basics and an otherwise fine hand, where CIPT comes up and is annoying. I run them in my cEDH deck, but I run 18 basics in a 3 colour deck where I can afford to have them come in tapped sometimes. New Innistrad duals are surprisingly good, but they aren't cEDH relevant usually, since they require a higher land count. I don't run them in my cEDH deck because I'm already running basics and the check lands, and those are the ones I could cut for them. They are worse than pain lands, worse than check lands if you run enough basics, but they are great cards. TBH, there aren't even many lands that are a lot better, it's so easy to make them come in untapped. Shocks get annoying if you pay too often, *shocking* as it sounds, maybe my games are too grindy?
Battle Lands are terrible IMHO, but for a fetchable dual (that can work with various non-Fetchland methods of fetching typed lands) they are playable. I think they're fine if you're in 2 colours, but IMHO it's usually a Gate, so if you wouldn't usually run a Gate, don't run these. You need SO many basics to reliably have them on early, ~28 basics gives you good odds of having ~2 lands in your opener, so keep that in mind in faster metas.
I like the Guild Bounce lands so much I even use Karoo lands sometimes. A land that taps for 2 can be very relevant in some decks. Guildless Commons is nifty too, but I wouldn't play those in a deck with a higher land count, they feel best without tons of other lands in my experience.
Pain Lands are openly good, at least an A, and no, they aren't all cheap, some of the Ally ones are pricey. Pain lands often deal no damage to you in a game, it's like you guys have never played with these, they are playable everywhere they are legal ffs.
Tainted Lands are fine in a deck that is 2 colours and for some reason is mostly Black in mana base. They are very so-so in Commander, where he singleton nature combines very poorly with the swamp requirement. To 'almost always have a swamp' you need to be running 14 Swamps, which is WAY more than most people are running, they are that questionable.
While Snarls are ungodly bad, Depletion Lands are probably the worst rare duals ever, from Ice Age, also home to 'still played in Vintage sometimes' Pain lands. Snarls are horrible, some of my least favoured lands, you need ~7 'hits' of each type to have decent odds of getting it untapped. I had the same feeling as Seth, where calling them Snarls was open trolling by WotC, but I felt I was being paranoid. At least they didn't call them Tease lands, because they taunt us with visions of a Batlebond Land, yet dash them quite expertly by almost always coming tapped after turn ~3.
Signet Lands are secretly some of the best duals, they add value to your colourless ramp like Sol Ring. It can rarely be worse than a Lorwyn Filter, but it can also be better early, so they are niche cEDH lands. Not generally as good as a true dual, but easily an A, probably a narrow S by virtue of enabling so much stuff with their filter. Turn 1 or 2 plays of a +3 colour Commander can be helped by these. They go down in value if you don't run Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring. They kinda suck in decks that run lots of efficient interaction, where you're like 'Welp, I Swan Songed, might as well Swords something with the W', which feels bad, but early plays in decks that need fixing and run the fast mana to power these make them reasonable.
The triomes are definitely not perfect, at best they’re an A with fetches, a B in green and a D otherwise. People rate them high because they’re new, trendy and think everyone runs all fetches in all their decks which is very far from the truth.
Signet lands are great in casual meta, definitely A as they fix you well and you don’t play many 1 drop instants anyway. Yes painlands are S and they provide colorless which could be a good upside. I played thousands of games and they cost around 1 life every 2 games, which is nothing. Just don’t run all of them but like 2-3 per deck is just perfect.
Bounce lands: I only play them in Yedora (guildless commons) otherwise they’re horrible as they enter tap. Even in reanimator they’re very, very bad as you have to wait a whole turn cycle and risk opponent reanimation spells before you can. They’re among the worst lands in my opinion. Maybe in decks with less than 34 lands they could be significant, but I don’t think so.
Check lands: I don’t play them outside of cedh and 2 colors decks. They enter tap almost a third of the time in casual meta even with fetches, ravlands and triomes.
Slow lands: S in casual they’re pretty much non-fetchable duals. They’re perfect I run them all in all my decks. In cedh though they’re F, maybe D.
Battle lands are bad yes you shouldn’t run them. They’re probably a C with fetches, F otherwise.
You’re also right with tainted lands, I only play the dimir one in a very heavy black focus deck.
Wait where are the Kamigawa Duals?
I love the Art on them and yes, totally run them!
I'm so happy Richard brought up the average vote for the pain lands. I value them highest after abu duals, shocks, fetches; probably around the same tier as battebond lands. The fact that they are ALWAYS untapped is so good!! There are so few fixing lands that unconditionally etb untapped. Also, being able to tap for colorless is even more of an upside with all the colorless mana requirements from Oath of the Gatewatch!! These turn on Eldrazi Displacer!! I can't express how much I like these lands. I run Karplusan Forest, but not Grove of the Burnwillows, in my Gruul deck, but I'm interested in how they compare. Losing one life seems better to me than each opponent gaining 1, but technically Grove can tap for colored if I'm at one life, so technically it's even less conditional... I might try out Grove, since usually I win by Exponential Growthing my board a bunch of times so the incidental life gain might be less relevant.
The shadows/snarl lands are pretty bad imo, I would rather run a basic in literally any deck, unless there's some... revealing cards synergy?
Great discussion thanks for sharing!!
fetching out an untapped shock is does more damage then pain lands have ever done in any of my games.
Kinda sucks you can't talk about lands without talking about price.
Richard was right. Pain Lands are great, first duals I go to after fetches and shocks.
A deck doctor episode where you all choose maybe your most loosey goosey decks and one of your oldest decks and you all talk about decision points in building them would be very entertaining.
Looks like Tomer needs to start running more Blood Moon effects with how much the rest of the crew seems to hate running basic lands.
I actually don't my run fetches or hardly any shocks (lol definitely no OG duals) in my five color dragons. I have so many ramp cards that search for basics I don't need them. I have a couple triomes and a few shocks for stuff like Three visits. My deck functions fine and never have mana issues. The trick is building mostly around a wedge and dabbling in the other colors. Also the battlebond lands (glad I bought them before they spiked) are clutch except for one on one in which I call them sad tapland.
I don't think I've ever had a snarl enter tapped. But yeah 3 bucks is pricy.
In defense of guild gates, they can be tutored with some spells.
Some real MTGO mindset on display here, where you can make a deck and not have to spend $200 on your mana base. I have to run like 24 basics in most of my decks because I don't want to spend half the cost of the deck on do-nothing lands.
That's perfectly valid, which is why we included prices. If you're playing $5 "C" or "D" lands, you might want to consider some of the $0.20 "A" or "B" lands. There are a lot of
I didnt play snarls in my standard decks since they came out. They're that bad