Sonic 3 & Knuckles is Mostly a Masterpiece
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- The Lock-On power duo of Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles is widely regarded as a masterpiece... but is it really THAT good?
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2:28 bro really dodge the bullet of the whole hydrocity pronounciation thing lol
Yeah he just said fuck it. Hydro-codile.
@@capcomvssnk I heard Hido ro co dee
It's either all one word and pronounced Hi-dross-settee
or
2 words Hydro City
Wow... I didn't even realize there was a controversy over it. I thought I was being funny pronouncing it "hi - dross - ity" all these years like how Megamind pronounces Metrocity.
Surely no one will take my Marble Garden pronunciation from me. When I got this game back in the 90's I was too young to read and I thought my cousin was saying "Marvin Gardens" referring to that zone. I used to play Monopoly with my dad, (also when I couldn't read yet) just because rolling dice and exchanging play money was fun to my little brain. Sonic 3 and Monopoly are weirdly linked even to this day for me.
@@ukfan0711calling it Marvin gardens from now on, thank you very much.
@@RickyMcSpanishI always read it as hydro-city zone but I think both ways works tbh.
I'd just like to clarify: we dont hate the Origins music because its not the original soundtrack, its because they took the prototype songs and actively made them sound a billion times worse, the ones in the prototype roms sound great, the Origins "remixes" sound like cut songs from Sonic 4
Fair enough but I still don't think the Origins versions sound nearly as bad as people say they do.
@@spontman I can certainly respect that, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you enjoy the tracks, more power to you.
first time the sonic community doesn't get mad at each other for having different opinions
@@Spoopiify truly a rare sight
@@spontman i grew up with the PC version of sonic 3, so i was already used to the original prototype tracks. which sounded the best on the FM synth on PC way way back in the 90s.
Just to clarify on Death Egg boss with the elevator, you can totally spin dash those little spiky dudes when they’re upside down and they’ll fly at the boss. That should cut the completion time of the boss in half and cure some of that boredom
Does that damage the boss? I haven’t played in a while but I thought that just cleared the ceiling.
@@jameskingman1227 Yes it really does
13:06
Correction: Knuckles campaign is not the games events from his POV, it takes place AFTER Sonic campaign.
Fun fact: The doomsday zone was originaly intended to be unlocked after completing both Knuckles and Sonic campaigns and collecting all the emeralds. Kinda like a "Last story" when you think about it.
Yep just like how many other sonic games like Heroes, Sonic Adventure and it's sequel, and even later releases like Superstars as for some examples of future games implementing this part into their campaigns years later.
@@SN64YT I want a Last Story in the next 3d sonic game sooo bad
Now it make sense why Dr. Robotnik comes after Knuckles after the event of Sonic 3 and Knuckles which leads to Knuckles Chaotix. If you play these classic Sonic games together in this order then you get a good storyline out of them:
1. Sonic 1
2. Sonic CD
3. Sonic 2
4. Sonic 3 and Knuckles (play Sonic and Tails first then Knuckles after)
5. Knuckles Chaotix
My guess is the Sonic Game Gear games are their own storylines and happened in an alternative Sonic universe while the Sonic Advance and Rush games are side-story to the main Sonic Adventure and boost games. Sonic 4, Sonic Arcade, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Mania, Sonic Boom, and the Sonic Storybook series may all not be canon.
Hide your kitties is my favorite zone in any Videogame ever. So glad it got the recognition it deserves.
I'm 41 years old. Played every sonic on Genesis without the CD or 32x. Every sonic game on Game Gear. Sonic 3 and Knuckles WAS the best, but sadly I think Sonic Mania is the creme de la creme.
I loved playing Mania when it came out, but it doesn't hold up. I definitely feel like they ruined some of it by releasing Plus, a couple new playable characters and redesigned levels is what RomHacks are for, there was plenty they could have done with entirely new levels and bosses
Verily!
Mania's fantastic, but when the majority of the game is old zones with some new paint, is it really the best? I dunno... I kinda think sonic 3 and knuckles is better. Just about equal quality but without reusing old levels
"flooded ruins of hidderockity"
finally, a compromise can be reached
9:30 The reason people hate the origins tracks is because they actually sound worse than the prototype tracks. The proto version of carnival night act 2 is actually really good but in origins it just sounds awful.
EDIT: Nvm you mention that like 10 seconds later
Yeah, but unmentioned in the video, its not just lower sound quality due to being from pc collection, there's also other differences like the tempos being different and just being overall worse
I can't believe bro pronounced it hydrocity instead of hydrocity 😏
I’ve always pronounced it High - dros- cit- tee
That's how we know he's Megamind in disguise.
High-dro City. Because it makes more sense of the context of the zone.
@@timjackdirector nah it's hydrocity sounding like velocity because sonic is fast
Am I the only one who heard him say 'hydro-kitty'? 😂
Third pronunciation of Hydrocity unlocked
I love how you didn't pronounce Hyrdocity the same twice. Also you missed a final boss, Super Mecha Sonic Mk2 for Knuckles
I'm sorry- "Hi-do-ro-crit-y"?!
"Hi-drock-i-die"?!?!
is that not how you say it ?
sounds more like he said hydro-kitty to me
@@Dog1167 that was the third time her said it
@@alphabae7512 her?
@@riggims its Hydro City or all one word pronounced Hi-dross-Sittee
Perhaps my favorite game ever. Just nostalgic and so replayable. Excited for this!
I see why people find Marble Garden Zone a drag…but fucking Sandopolis 2 can fuck right off the bat
Great video, but I'm surprised you didn't mention the multiplayer.
Also, I definitely recommend trying the original release version of Sonic 3&K, if you haven't already.
I'd recommend Knuckles in Sonic 2, but I don't think you'd like that very much lol
Sonic 3&K like I’ve stayed before is one of my favorite sonic games and even what I consider the best classic sonic game. Your review definitely did justice, and the criticisms you bring up are valid and I’m happy your reason is to show how even when things can’t seem to be better there are still higher places to go. Great vid can’t wait for the next one.
Pro: gave us Knuckles.
Con: Carnival Night Zone.
I always considered Knuckles the hard mode. His jump is shorter, climbing and gliding are more restrictive than flying, and it's physics can hinder instead of help if used aimlessly. I only disagree about it being an issue having to jump yourself to activate it, for Tails flight have the same rules and "if on the move" physics.
A little detail is that Sonic 3 alone have 6 save files, while S3&K have 8: I remember this from my Genesis days, it allowed exactly two save slots for each possible composition (S, T, S&T, K).
And I so wish Origins had the option to play solo S3 and solo S&K: honestly, Knuckles campaign feels just like a "what if", that has him starting in Mushroom Hill like solo S&K: in the "complete" game, why he starts in Mushroom then suddenly is on Angel Forest, only to go through the stages and he back in Mushroom Hill?
I had to remind myself that Knuckles starting in Angel Island was a Sonic 3 Complete feature and not in the original game.
Respect for saying the 3 sprites are more on model. Don’t see that opinion very much - always thought they resembled the Japanese art more than the 1/2 look, which in turn looks more like the American art imo with the rounded head and such.
Also like your use of chill dnb/jungle
These sprites are my favorite. Basically the best because Sonic and fam were supposed to be “edgy” right? Sonic and co seem way more animated!
LOVE YOUR VIDEOS SO MUCH. THANKS BRO. You made my day bro. This makes me sosososo happy and I love it!
"with that amount it's inevitable that a few stinkers slipped through the crack" you got me with that line.
I'm cursed to write fart jokes even when I'm not trying to
25:00 you can spin dash into the upside down ones if doing the anti gravity missed, not as efficient as cheesing camping at the switch, but a bit more fun
I'll have to remember this for my next playthrough
@@spontmanalso you can spin dash in between the Final Bosses fingers
And sometimes when you do that you just fall into the bottom of the screen for some weird reason at least in the original versions @RakoonCD
@@Polynyce I meant to say his hands,
✋ 🦔 ✋
👊 🔵🔅👊
I didn't know this until I was an adult, lol.
Great video!
I love hearing new and fresh opinions on my favorite game of all time. Good video structure and a voice I can stand to listen to for long periods of time
Carival Night Zones music fits that stage perfectly, even if its annoying, the circus sample just belongs i cant picture the stage without it, in fact i cant picture any of the stages without the retail songs
Sonic 3 Complete, despite being a ROM hack technically, is the best way to play this game as originally intended.
Great review man, also love the liquid dnb backing tracks. ☝️🙏
I guess the original Sonic 3 music fell on Hard Times.
Absolutely incredible video as always. Your unique writing style always keeps me invested.
oh and btw, it was confirmed by Masa himself in a tweet that MJ did in fact work on some of the OSTs for the game. You said it was just a rumor. (7:24)
Sorry. Like I said, I'm not very well versed on the topic.
8:24 was *genius* and I might need to start using that.
Also great video! Shame about the Knuckles bit though. But I get it for sure, it doesn't allow for a seamless flow. You might like a mod to Sonic Mania called Sonic Megamix Mania. It lets you go into and out of a glide at will, and exiting a glide gives a small double jump
To be fair in the comparisons to the soundtrack the reason people are complaining about the Origins soundtrack is due to a distinct compressed audio compared to the original and that the replacement / original tracks had better sounding versions
Edit I see that you just mentioned this in the video and in the comments and in my opinion I like to use the origins version for Act 2 and use the MJ ones for act 1
I’m so in love with this game
The prototype soundtracks were also used for the PC version, which was my first version of Sonic 3. I'm a little thrilled to see them make a come back.
Fun fact: For the finger portion of the final boss fight you can spin dash and it counts the hits without killing you.
15:09 “so lets start with Sonic 3” proceeds to talk about sonic 1, 2 and CD 😂😂
One of the rare games I would give my highest grade: EXCEPTIONAL. It's certainly rough in places, but it does so much right that they don't matter much in the long run.
Also, it looks GORGEOUS! Playing on a Mega Drive with an RGB Scart cable brought out the best in the visuals, and I couldn't take my eyes off the screen. It's honestly as visually striking and inspiring as a 1950s Chuck Jones cartoon.
Great video, albeit one with too many "in my opinion" moments.
Yeah I wish I had realized how much I overused that phrase before I recorded the VO. Oh well.
when it comes to speedrunning and getting good this game is absolutley insane. its one of hardest games to speedrun. this video doesnt say anything about that so just wanted to mention this. so this game can have long lasting lifetime overall
"we're almost done here alex" LMAO
Great video and channel. Subbed.
Cant believe it's 30 years.... feels like yesterday.
9:02 That mini boss theme is badass, one of the best 16bit video game compositions ever 🔥🔥
Definitely agree with you there. The problem is that the back-half of the miniboss theme from Sonic 3 never gets heard, because the first time you fight a miniboss you're laser-focused on the fight and not paying attention to the music, and every time after that the fight is over within 15-30 seconds.
Side note: Even as a kid, I recognized them putting the Knuckles percussive theme "buh-duh DAH ca duh, duh dukka DUH" into that miniboss theme, and I always pictured Knuckles in the background, helping out the miniboss since he was on Robotnik's side. I wonder if that was the was the original intent, but they couldn't make it work. It cannot be coincidence.
"That would mean Sonic peaked nearly 30 years ago."
Yes, you are correct.
As Mushroom Hill Zone's #1 enjoyer i have got to say you are doing that zone so dirty. You only have to actually use the pulley once and that's at the very end of act 2, yes its slow but you can avoid 90% of them. Imo its one of the best zones in the game
The two acts do have a beautiful spring and autumn visual vibe to them.
You could also, attach Sonic 2, to Sonic & Knuckles. Would allow you to play as Knuckles in Sonic 2.
10:06 - I paused the video just to comment about Snow Cap music, decided to unpaused to at least finish the music section of the video, and was not disappointed.
Rewatching Acts 1 and 2 of Angel Island now, it looks like a documentary of the town of Lahaina (which I visited once) being ravaged by wildfires last summer.
I call it Hydrocity (hydrawcity), Not Hydro-city. Because its one word and I think it sounds cooler
The first Boss on Death egg you can trow the fliped spiky bombs into the Boos using spindash after making them fall upside down after changing gravity.
For the second Boss you can shred the finger making the hands fall close to the other and using Spindash, you would bonce on them over and over again doing a ton of damage.
And I prefer the Sonic 2 Special stages, the ones in 3 and Knuckles are STRESS, incarnated, they always made my hands sweet a lot, and the stupid music and the speed going faster if you take to long is just evil, but oh boy, when I got the seven emeralds for the first tome when I was 9, I became a Super Sonic abuser every time I played and didn't regret a thing XD.
You can actually make the death egg zone act 1 boss fun by spin dashing instead of just going up and down in the elevators the entire time, just my opinion tho 🤷
One of the greatest games ever made
Sonic 3&knuckles is a masterpiece the best sonic ever made for the sega genesis there are so many secrets that need to be discovered yet
HI-DO-ROCK-ITY
You win an internets.
I heard somewhere that MJ didn’t like the way his music sounded on the genesis and since sega couldn’t make the music sound better due to the genesis hardware at the time he didn’t want his name credited in the music
The problem with that fallacy is that he was completely content with his tracks in Michael Jackson's Moonwalker and was totally fine with being credited for them for that game, which didn't even sound as good as S3&K's tracks, both FM instrument wise and sample wise.
So then why would he backpedal on that stance just for S3&K?
@@Turbulation1I always thought his name was removed because of his pedo-related controversies.
@@AnonDudeBro I feel like that was the more likely reason.
One of my favorite genesis games when I was a kid.
11:05 the super peelout made sense in sonic cd, where if you try to get the good ending(without the time stones) you have to use the time traveling mechanic. Also the super peelout moves faster and charges faster and better. In my tails playthrough, there were times where I took damage or was inconvenienced due to not having the super peelout, flying doesn't even help that much in sonic cd like tails and sonic are equal difficulty there.
Sonic 3&K was always my favorite to play from the originals.. it was the one I played the most as a kid, despite never being able to finish the game. After picking up Origins and completing with every character + grabbing the super emeralds I had an absolute blast. The points you brought up were good and valid, also (I agree, the sprites for this game are superior)
The high watermark of the entire series and it still hasn't been topped. Sonic 2 and Mania were close, but didn't have the stage design and the heart of S3&K
I love how you put the japanese versions of sonic and his friends on the titles of your videos 😊. The best ones on my opinion.
I actually like a lot of the NA art too, but people seem to respond more to the JP art (and I can't blame them, it's very clean)
You're right 😊@@spontman
Huge points both for acknowledging the Origins remixes as actually being prototype versions and not just being like "just play Sonic 3 A.I.R. lol" with the Origins version, much appreciated!
7:39 As I understand it, Michael Jackson wasn't happy with how the music came out and requested to be left uncredited.
I feel the same way about knuckles. Classic sonic level design is all about the three core elements: speed, platforming, and exploration. Knuckles' moveset does not work well at all with the speed aspect of these games at all, seeing how the climb does not work with slopes at all and how gliding makes you lose all speed. However his moveset works well enough with exploration and platforming which is why I still think he's still enjoyable.
I've always thought of Knuckles as a character you use for exploring. Even in Sonic 1 & 2 he's fun to use.
@@Akirathehusky Yeah I agree but to me exploration in sonic games is at its best when speed is involved.
Sonic 3 sprite is the best i love it
I’ve learned to like Launch Base Prototype, Buxter’s Icecap is irreplaceable, but I 100% prefer Prototype Carnival Night. Sonic 3 Complete has my favorite rendition of Act 2 and was my introduction to it. Do recommend
10:00 Ice Cap Zone was sequenced by Buxer, but he took the melody from the 1982 song "Hard Times" by The Jetzons, who he had previously worked with. Also, it's almost without a doubt Jackson helped with the sound track (voice and some melodies), but did not fully compose any songs, thus not credited (unfairly). Nonetheless, most music wasn't brought over to the releases due to copyright restrictions, because of these involvements.
That's got to be the best pronunciation of Hydrocity i've heard 😂
24:14 Hyper Sonic and the bosses are the best things about S3K
The sphere levels were my absolute fav bonus levels.......except for I grew up in the 90s and tv's weren't the cheapest thing back then. So I had a hand me down 13" Black and White tv........ I learned how to tell the shades of grey apart in the end :D
25:25 you can spindash into eggman when he bounces back up after he comes down from the top of the screen for one hit (as shown in the timestamp) but you can also hit him with your insta-shield if you're not super sonic for a couple more hits.
Hydro- what now? 😲
I think Spontman doesn't know the "super glide move" that Knuckles have. I don't know if he still has it in Sonic Origins, though.
Well? We're waitinnggg
the whole video sounds way more like a praise. Awesome game.
6:21
I agree
But for some reason, the sprites look like if Modern Sonic (more of sonic from SA2) was short and didn't have green eyes
Marble Garden Zone is my favorite level in S3&K. Sandopolis Zone is my second favorite level in S3&K.
Angel Island Revisited makes this game perfect
Insta-Shield was always a weird name, especially considering it was originally called rhe Double Spin Attack
Yes let's go finally I am sooooooooooooooo happy you upload this video P. S. This is better then sonic 2
P. S. @spontman when is a mania video coming
Mushroom hill zone is S tier
Sonic 3&K's not a game without flaws, but that's such a thing with every game. This review was quite fair and I don't think you were actually too negative here. (also I agree that the sonic 3 origins soundtrack hate is quite overblown, if you listen to the versions from the leaked sonic 3 prototype that was found in 2019, it sounds really good!)
I'm personally amused by the fact that most Sonic 3 zones have water, but there's not a single drop in S&K.
Wait you're right what the heck
Damn, I've played this one more than any other, ever since it came out. Also, a tip for the "last boss" -> don't jump on its fingers, just spindash until they drop on you and then release. Kills them a lot faster.
Hyddorockety Act 2 has my favorite music in the series.
Spontman Sonic 3 Hype
Making good music for the Genesis was an art and a science, the best chip tunes on the system were done by people who had both music experience and programming experience like Yuzo Koshiro for example was quite fluent in programming Z80 assembly getting his start making games for the PC 88. If the Brad Buxer guy was coming from a record label studio experience he must've lacked technical know-how.
It was also interesting playing Sonic 2 and Knuckles.
Tails is my favorite character to play as. I love the ability to swim, and to fly. Super Tails is AWESOME! The Flickie Army Of Death is the best part.
Can you drop the track playlist you used for this video. Every track is really good 😅
I recommend just listening to all of Accelio's music, it's amazing: www.youtube.com/@AccelioMusic
There really isn't proof that these prototype songs (as-is) were supposed to be in the game. They wouldn't contract with Michael Jackson and just throw away some intended music last minute, they always intended it to be placeholder music. These things take planning, and Sega obviously intended the Sonic 3 we have today. For instance Sonic 3 Prototype has a really awful knuckles song, that never made it to Sonic & Knuckles Replacement.
wHaT dO yOu MeAn tAiLs CaN fLy iN tHiS gAmE!?
I don't think it's nitpicky, I think you did a good job with your points. Good video.
Knuckles's versatility with the glide like you're describing was implemented in Chaotix.
Unfortunately... it's Chaotix.
The best way to experience Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the old PC version.
Not only does it have all 3 games, it's bug-free (thanks Origins) and I'll defend to my death that the changed soundtracks are much better than the original Genesis/Mega Drive.
Sorry Michael Jackson?
I feel like Sonic CD's concepts are worth revisiting/improving upon. I'm a huge fan of Sonic 2's approach, and Sonic 3&K is fine, but CD's approach to exploration, taking certain paths then implementing speed to change the level, the time travel... anyway I think Sega should look at CD more for at least one more sonic project. And of course dumping all the stuff people hate about superstars lol
Feels like in that window of Sonic 3 being stuck in limbo because of the music and its lack of availability on modern platforms until Origins, that modern/revisionist views of the classic series all said Sonic 2 was the best game, but I concur that S3K just blows 2 out of the water in every single facet. 2 is still fun of course, but like it's hard to play it outside of the Christian Whitehead versions.
I was in goddamn 1st grade when this came out.
You should play Sonic Superstars with Knuckles since he can wall jump by pressing jump and up while being attached to a wall. Basically Mightys wall jump from chaotix but with Knuckles.
Outstanding video. Been playing this game for 30 years and everything you said is spot on. I've beaten this game more than any other and while it has it's objective flaws it's still perfect in my eyes. Sonic Mania is just as great, but lacks originality since nearly all the zones were just reused.
My only gripe with S3&K is that there are too many different versions to play. The original hardware, the Sonic 3 Complete project, Steam version of the said project, or Mania which all have their ups and downs.
25:00 While this doesn't invalidate your point, did you not know you could spin dash into the spike guys when they're flipped over in order to point them back towards the boss?
Everything you said about knuckles movement can be circumvented if you understand the mechanics of the game and get a little clever. It actually makes him more agile and precise than sonic.
Sonic & Knuckles was the first ¨DLC¨ I ever bought :)
High Drough C.T. Zone is my favorite.
I think that the origins ost is very comparable to the original but the issue isn't that it's not what we're used to. It's that it sounds like the whole thing was placed under a low-pass filter. The actual versions seen in the beta sound 100x better than what they did in origins.
I'm surprised you did not mention super sonic making you hear the invincibility theme looped forever as a negative.
A main reason why I never use the Super forms.