I'd just like to clarify: we dont hate the Origins music because its not the original soundtrack, its because they took the prototype songs and actively made them sound a billion times worse, the ones in the prototype roms sound great, the Origins "remixes" sound like cut songs from Sonic 4
@@spontman i grew up with the PC version of sonic 3, so i was already used to the original prototype tracks. which sounded the best on the FM synth on PC way way back in the 90s.
13:06 Correction: Knuckles campaign is not the games events from his POV, it takes place AFTER Sonic campaign. Fun fact: The doomsday zone was originaly intended to be unlocked after completing both Knuckles and Sonic campaigns and collecting all the emeralds. Kinda like a "Last story" when you think about it.
Yep just like how many other sonic games like Heroes, Sonic Adventure and it's sequel, and even later releases like Superstars as for some examples of future games implementing this part into their campaigns years later.
Now it make sense why Dr. Robotnik comes after Knuckles after the event of Sonic 3 and Knuckles which leads to Knuckles Chaotix. If you play these classic Sonic games together in this order then you get a good storyline out of them: 1. Sonic 1 2. Sonic CD 3. Sonic 2 4. Sonic 3 and Knuckles (play Sonic and Tails first then Knuckles after) 5. Knuckles Chaotix My guess is the Sonic Game Gear games are their own storylines and happened in an alternative Sonic universe while the Sonic Advance and Rush games are side-story to the main Sonic Adventure and boost games. Sonic 4, Sonic Arcade, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Mania, Sonic Boom, and the Sonic Storybook series may all not be canon.
@@rellarella0305 Evidence is within the game itself. Angel Island is in the sky in Knuckles campaign which can only happen after Sonic's good endings. The Death Egg is not present in either Launch Base or Lava Reef because it went to space and blew up. The bad ending of Sonic's campaign shows Egg Robo emerging from a pile of scrap which hints at Knuckles' story. Hope that helps.
9:30 The reason people hate the origins tracks is because they actually sound worse than the prototype tracks. The proto version of carnival night act 2 is actually really good but in origins it just sounds awful. EDIT: Nvm you mention that like 10 seconds later
Yeah, but unmentioned in the video, its not just lower sound quality due to being from pc collection, there's also other differences like the tempos being different and just being overall worse
Just to clarify on Death Egg boss with the elevator, you can totally spin dash those little spiky dudes when they’re upside down and they’ll fly at the boss. That should cut the completion time of the boss in half and cure some of that boredom
@@jameskingman1227 If you time it correctly, they do. Also, if you miss, they land the other way up, so you can use the gravity switcher again to make them fall into the boss if you so desire.
Great video, but I'm surprised you didn't mention the multiplayer. Also, I definitely recommend trying the original release version of Sonic 3&K, if you haven't already. I'd recommend Knuckles in Sonic 2, but I don't think you'd like that very much lol
I always considered Knuckles the hard mode. His jump is shorter, climbing and gliding are more restrictive than flying, and it's physics can hinder instead of help if used aimlessly. I only disagree about it being an issue having to jump yourself to activate it, for Tails flight have the same rules and "if on the move" physics. A little detail is that Sonic 3 alone have 6 save files, while S3&K have 8: I remember this from my Genesis days, it allowed exactly two save slots for each possible composition (S, T, S&T, K). And I so wish Origins had the option to play solo S3 and solo S&K: honestly, Knuckles campaign feels just like a "what if", that has him starting in Mushroom Hill like solo S&K: in the "complete" game, why he starts in Mushroom then suddenly is on Angel Forest, only to go through the stages and he back in Mushroom Hill?
Also I just binged all your Sonic retrospectives and your channel is AMAZING, really level headed and not too long videos that take on all the important Sonic games with super chill music and great narration with funny jokes. I look forward to whatever comes next.
Respect for saying the 3 sprites are more on model. Don’t see that opinion very much - always thought they resembled the Japanese art more than the 1/2 look, which in turn looks more like the American art imo with the rounded head and such. Also like your use of chill dnb/jungle
The cool thing about Sonic's "new" sprites from Sonic 3 is that he looks more mature than he did in previous games, as if he had aged slightly, bringing him closer to his then-upcoming Dreamcast design without clashing with what we had known up until that point. A shame this was never really reflected in any of the promotional artwork for the game, regardless of regions.
Perhaps my favorite game ever. Just nostalgic and so replayable. Excited for this! I see why people find Marble Garden Zone a drag…but fucking Sandopolis 2 can fuck right off the bat
Tbh Sandopolis 2 wasn't even that bad it was kinda fun in my opinion and not even that long compared to what people say Marble Garden Zone was pretty bad because of the annoying gimmick with that blue platform
10:00 Ice Cap Zone was sequenced by Buxer, but he took the melody from the 1982 song "Hard Times" by The Jetzons, who he had previously worked with. Also, it's almost without a doubt Jackson helped with the sound track (voice and some melodies), but did not fully compose any songs, thus not credited (unfairly). Nonetheless, most music wasn't brought over to the releases due to copyright restrictions, because of these involvements.
I'm 41 years old. Played every sonic on Genesis without the CD or 32x. Every sonic game on Game Gear. Sonic 3 and Knuckles WAS the best, but sadly I think Sonic Mania is the creme de la creme.
I loved playing Mania when it came out, but it doesn't hold up. I definitely feel like they ruined some of it by releasing Plus, a couple new playable characters and redesigned levels is what RomHacks are for, there was plenty they could have done with entirely new levels and bosses
Mania's fantastic, but when the majority of the game is old zones with some new paint, is it really the best? I dunno... I kinda think sonic 3 and knuckles is better. Just about equal quality but without reusing old levels
@@phoenixwright784 the majority of the game is NOT old zones. if you mean old zone "themes" then maybe there's an argument to be had there. but those are new levels. with very small parts taken from the originals & they only do it on the first act. act 2 stages are 100% new.
@@asdfxcvbn746 I mean, they aren't a 100% copy and paste of the old levels, but even with the new/newish level designs, It's still hard to get excited over these old levels, or at least not as excited as the few 100% new levels that are in the game. Also, act 2s aren't 100% new either. Act 2 of Flying Battery zone, for example, has similarities to Wing Fortress zone. I'm not trying to bash Mania. It is absolutely fantastic and as a classic sonic fan, I'm obviously very happy that it exists. I just wish more of it was 100% unique and it's own thing. I can't put it above sonic 3 and knuckles for this reason.
I’m actually working on a video that tries to pinpoint who wrote which songs for this game and I gotta say, I do like the prototype tracks a lot. However, I feel that the way Origins’ versions are mixed does disservice to how good they actually are as musical compositions.
Sonic 3&K like I’ve stayed before is one of my favorite sonic games and even what I consider the best classic sonic game. Your review definitely did justice, and the criticisms you bring up are valid and I’m happy your reason is to show how even when things can’t seem to be better there are still higher places to go. Great vid can’t wait for the next one.
Carival Night Zones music fits that stage perfectly, even if its annoying, the circus sample just belongs i cant picture the stage without it, in fact i cant picture any of the stages without the retail songs
25:00 you can spin dash into the upside down ones if doing the anti gravity missed, not as efficient as cheesing camping at the switch, but a bit more fun
11:05 the super peelout made sense in sonic cd, where if you try to get the good ending(without the time stones) you have to use the time traveling mechanic. Also the super peelout moves faster and charges faster and better. In my tails playthrough, there were times where I took damage or was inconvenienced due to not having the super peelout, flying doesn't even help that much in sonic cd like tails and sonic are equal difficulty there.
I heard somewhere that MJ didn’t like the way his music sounded on the genesis and since sega couldn’t make the music sound better due to the genesis hardware at the time he didn’t want his name credited in the music
The problem with that fallacy is that he was completely content with his tracks in Michael Jackson's Moonwalker and was totally fine with being credited for them for that game, which didn't even sound as good as S3&K's tracks, both FM instrument wise and sample wise. So then why would he backpedal on that stance just for S3&K?
8:24 was *genius* and I might need to start using that. Also great video! Shame about the Knuckles bit though. But I get it for sure, it doesn't allow for a seamless flow. You might like a mod to Sonic Mania called Sonic Megamix Mania. It lets you go into and out of a glide at will, and exiting a glide gives a small double jump
One of the rare games I would give my highest grade: EXCEPTIONAL. It's certainly rough in places, but it does so much right that they don't matter much in the long run. Also, it looks GORGEOUS! Playing on a Mega Drive with an RGB Scart cable brought out the best in the visuals, and I couldn't take my eyes off the screen. It's honestly as visually striking and inspiring as a 1950s Chuck Jones cartoon. Great video, albeit one with too many "in my opinion" moments.
10:06 - I paused the video just to comment about Snow Cap music, decided to unpaused to at least finish the music section of the video, and was not disappointed.
To be fair in the comparisons to the soundtrack the reason people are complaining about the Origins soundtrack is due to a distinct compressed audio compared to the original and that the replacement / original tracks had better sounding versions Edit I see that you just mentioned this in the video and in the comments and in my opinion I like to use the origins version for Act 2 and use the MJ ones for act 1
If they had just gone with the versions from the Nov. 1993 Sonic 3 prototype IMO the complaints would be almost nonexistent, or at the least far, far smaller.
Absolutely incredible video as always. Your unique writing style always keeps me invested. oh and btw, it was confirmed by Masa himself in a tweet that MJ did in fact work on some of the OSTs for the game. You said it was just a rumor. (7:24)
25:00 While this doesn't invalidate your point, did you not know you could spin dash into the spike guys when they're flipped over in order to point them back towards the boss?
Something I loved and blew my mind after discovering Doomsday Zone, was playing with Knuckles w/ all the chaos emeralds and discover the Final Boss Fight had a second phase "unlockable" like doomsday zone!
As Mushroom Hill Zone's #1 enjoyer i have got to say you are doing that zone so dirty. You only have to actually use the pulley once and that's at the very end of act 2, yes its slow but you can avoid 90% of them. Imo its one of the best zones in the game
25:25 you can spindash into eggman when he bounces back up after he comes down from the top of the screen for one hit (as shown in the timestamp) but you can also hit him with your insta-shield if you're not super sonic for a couple more hits.
24:55 Putting this here because I didn't find it out until years later. You can actually SPINDASH into the little spike bots if they are flipped upside-down, It helps leagues in making this fight more tolerable, faster, and bordering actually enjoyable. As doing so will launch them toward the boss in an arc, turning a boring timing "challenge" into a more fun accuracy and ammo management fight that also ends way faster. ...Still not exactly my favorite, though. Edit: I just saw someone else's comment on this too, but I am still putting mine here to help that info spread!
Definitely agree with you there. The problem is that the back-half of the miniboss theme from Sonic 3 never gets heard, because the first time you fight a miniboss you're laser-focused on the fight and not paying attention to the music, and every time after that the fight is over within 15-30 seconds. Side note: Even as a kid, I recognized them putting the Knuckles percussive theme "buh-duh DAH ca duh, duh dukka DUH" into that miniboss theme, and I always pictured Knuckles in the background, helping out the miniboss since he was on Robotnik's side. I wonder if that was the was the original intent, but they couldn't make it work. It cannot be coincidence.
The first Boss on Death egg you can trow the fliped spiky bombs into the Boos using spindash after making them fall upside down after changing gravity. For the second Boss you can shred the finger making the hands fall close to the other and using Spindash, you would bonce on them over and over again doing a ton of damage. And I prefer the Sonic 2 Special stages, the ones in 3 and Knuckles are STRESS, incarnated, they always made my hands sweet a lot, and the stupid music and the speed going faster if you take to long is just evil, but oh boy, when I got the seven emeralds for the first tome when I was 9, I became a Super Sonic abuser every time I played and didn't regret a thing XD.
The prototype soundtracks were also used for the PC version, which was my first version of Sonic 3. I'm a little thrilled to see them make a come back. Fun fact: For the finger portion of the final boss fight you can spin dash and it counts the hits without killing you.
Great video! I love hearing new and fresh opinions on my favorite game of all time. Good video structure and a voice I can stand to listen to for long periods of time
24:55 You can spin dash the _piketurtles_ right at the right time and damage the boss, invert gravity is not the only way to turn its weapons against him
Rewatching Acts 1 and 2 of Angel Island now, it looks like a documentary of the town of Lahaina (which I visited once) being ravaged by wildfires last summer.
Huge points both for acknowledging the Origins remixes as actually being prototype versions and not just being like "just play Sonic 3 A.I.R. lol" with the Origins version, much appreciated!
I love S3&K, to me, its still the best Sonic game ever, followed shortly by Sonic Mania Plus (Only because of which came first). And can we all which played Sonic 2 og and Sonic 2 Origins just appreciate that end scene were you actually see the Death Egg base fall at the end of S2O? That attention to detail was just so, so needed
I’ve learned to like Launch Base Prototype, Buxter’s Icecap is irreplaceable, but I 100% prefer Prototype Carnival Night. Sonic 3 Complete has my favorite rendition of Act 2 and was my introduction to it. Do recommend
Damn, I've played this one more than any other, ever since it came out. Also, a tip for the "last boss" -> don't jump on its fingers, just spindash until they drop on you and then release. Kills them a lot faster.
Sonic 3&K was always my favorite to play from the originals.. it was the one I played the most as a kid, despite never being able to finish the game. After picking up Origins and completing with every character + grabbing the super emeralds I had an absolute blast. The points you brought up were good and valid, also (I agree, the sprites for this game are superior)
I feel the same way about knuckles. Classic sonic level design is all about the three core elements: speed, platforming, and exploration. Knuckles' moveset does not work well at all with the speed aspect of these games at all, seeing how the climb does not work with slopes at all and how gliding makes you lose all speed. However his moveset works well enough with exploration and platforming which is why I still think he's still enjoyable.
I agree with the music take tbh. I think the new remixes of the prototype carnival night have to be the highlight like you showed. I never understood why people were hating on it and I still don’t.
Parts of the fandom are convinced that it's pronounced High-drossity, and arguments have occurred as a result, so Spontman made up some alternate pronunciations as a joke.
Sonic 3&K's not a game without flaws, but that's such a thing with every game. This review was quite fair and I don't think you were actually too negative here. (also I agree that the sonic 3 origins soundtrack hate is quite overblown, if you listen to the versions from the leaked sonic 3 prototype that was found in 2019, it sounds really good!)
You can actually make the death egg zone act 1 boss fun by spin dashing instead of just going up and down in the elevators the entire time, just my opinion tho 🤷
Sorry, I know you don't like the Carnival Night Zone music - but the proper one is better and has a lot more going on with it than you might appreciate. There's a link between different Sonic music and different games - the chromatic tumble you showed in the clip was from 'Entrance of the Gladiators', which better fits the whole carnival theme, and it's also a shout back to Mystic Cave. Also, Ice Cap Zone is probably my favourite Sonic 3 music and I refuse to play that zone to anything else.
Entrance of the Gladiators is the most stereotypical and obvious choice for a circus-themed song, I'm not sure what's supposed to be clever about that. It also doesn't make the song itself sound any less awful.
@@spontman Carnival Night Zone is the weakest of the 3 replaced songs, but the replacement still sounds like a cheap knock-off to me (even though it's technically the original). Entrance of the Gladiators isn't the only thing going on, but I can't really break it down in a comment - there's a few music theory channels around who break down sonic music, and it's actually really interesting
25:11 And then you spin dash into the upside down ones, flipping them again while you get knocked back into the gravity tunnel where you repeat the process again on the other side with those same spikey things, which are conveniently flipped again (the ones that didn't hit the boss on the way down, that is). You did that, right?
Im sorry but did you call hydrocity, "hidrokity" please with all due respect, activate the spike bug and throw yourself im a pit of spikes my good sir. :)
6:17 you are not alone in that opinion. They are indeed the best, and I cram to understand why Evening Star didn't use those sprites in Sonic Mania, but instead defaulted to Sonic 1? 😭
The sphere levels were my absolute fav bonus levels.......except for I grew up in the 90s and tv's weren't the cheapest thing back then. So I had a hand me down 13" Black and White tv........ I learned how to tell the shades of grey apart in the end :D
Outstanding video. Been playing this game for 30 years and everything you said is spot on. I've beaten this game more than any other and while it has it's objective flaws it's still perfect in my eyes. Sonic Mania is just as great, but lacks originality since nearly all the zones were just reused.
Making good music for the Genesis was an art and a science, the best chip tunes on the system were done by people who had both music experience and programming experience like Yuzo Koshiro for example was quite fluent in programming Z80 assembly getting his start making games for the PC 88. If the Brad Buxer guy was coming from a record label studio experience he must've lacked technical know-how.
The high watermark of the entire series and it still hasn't been topped. Sonic 2 and Mania were close, but didn't have the stage design and the heart of S3&K
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I'd just like to clarify: we dont hate the Origins music because its not the original soundtrack, its because they took the prototype songs and actively made them sound a billion times worse, the ones in the prototype roms sound great, the Origins "remixes" sound like cut songs from Sonic 4
Fair enough but I still don't think the Origins versions sound nearly as bad as people say they do.
@@spontman I can certainly respect that, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you enjoy the tracks, more power to you.
first time the sonic community doesn't get mad at each other for having different opinions
@@Spoopiify truly a rare sight
@@spontman i grew up with the PC version of sonic 3, so i was already used to the original prototype tracks. which sounded the best on the FM synth on PC way way back in the 90s.
5:28 This guy got around the "Hydro City vs. Hydrocity" debate by saying... whatever the hell he just said.
God, that was SO much worse.
and then we get *"hydro-kitty zone"*
Hydo rockety
hiddirockerti
yo thats exactly wat i thought word for word no joke lol
13:06
Correction: Knuckles campaign is not the games events from his POV, it takes place AFTER Sonic campaign.
Fun fact: The doomsday zone was originaly intended to be unlocked after completing both Knuckles and Sonic campaigns and collecting all the emeralds. Kinda like a "Last story" when you think about it.
Yep just like how many other sonic games like Heroes, Sonic Adventure and it's sequel, and even later releases like Superstars as for some examples of future games implementing this part into their campaigns years later.
@@SN64YT I want a Last Story in the next 3d sonic game sooo bad
Now it make sense why Dr. Robotnik comes after Knuckles after the event of Sonic 3 and Knuckles which leads to Knuckles Chaotix. If you play these classic Sonic games together in this order then you get a good storyline out of them:
1. Sonic 1
2. Sonic CD
3. Sonic 2
4. Sonic 3 and Knuckles (play Sonic and Tails first then Knuckles after)
5. Knuckles Chaotix
My guess is the Sonic Game Gear games are their own storylines and happened in an alternative Sonic universe while the Sonic Advance and Rush games are side-story to the main Sonic Adventure and boost games. Sonic 4, Sonic Arcade, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Mania, Sonic Boom, and the Sonic Storybook series may all not be canon.
do you have a source for the 'last story' claim? :) just curious
@@rellarella0305 Evidence is within the game itself. Angel Island is in the sky in Knuckles campaign which can only happen after Sonic's good endings. The Death Egg is not present in either Launch Base or Lava Reef because it went to space and blew up.
The bad ending of Sonic's campaign shows Egg Robo emerging from a pile of scrap which hints at Knuckles' story.
Hope that helps.
"flooded ruins of hidderockity"
finally, a compromise can be reached
nah, that’s infinitely worse
@@dreamareakoso3791 a good compromise leaves everyone involved uncomfortable
Third pronunciation of Hydrocity unlocked
Hide your kitties is my favorite zone in any Videogame ever. So glad it got the recognition it deserves.
9:30 The reason people hate the origins tracks is because they actually sound worse than the prototype tracks. The proto version of carnival night act 2 is actually really good but in origins it just sounds awful.
EDIT: Nvm you mention that like 10 seconds later
Yeah, but unmentioned in the video, its not just lower sound quality due to being from pc collection, there's also other differences like the tempos being different and just being overall worse
I love how you didn't pronounce Hyrdocity the same twice. Also you missed a final boss, Super Mecha Sonic Mk2 for Knuckles
Just to clarify on Death Egg boss with the elevator, you can totally spin dash those little spiky dudes when they’re upside down and they’ll fly at the boss. That should cut the completion time of the boss in half and cure some of that boredom
Does that damage the boss? I haven’t played in a while but I thought that just cleared the ceiling.
@@jameskingman1227 Yes it really does
I thought everyone knew this lmao
@@jameskingman1227 If you time it correctly, they do. Also, if you miss, they land the other way up, so you can use the gravity switcher again to make them fall into the boss if you so desire.
Yea it kinda makes it fun ngl
Sonic 3 Complete, despite being a ROM hack technically, is the best way to play this game as originally intended.
Sonic 3 A.I.R
15:09 “so lets start with Sonic 3” proceeds to talk about sonic 1, 2 and CD 😂😂
Great video, but I'm surprised you didn't mention the multiplayer.
Also, I definitely recommend trying the original release version of Sonic 3&K, if you haven't already.
I'd recommend Knuckles in Sonic 2, but I don't think you'd like that very much lol
I always considered Knuckles the hard mode. His jump is shorter, climbing and gliding are more restrictive than flying, and it's physics can hinder instead of help if used aimlessly. I only disagree about it being an issue having to jump yourself to activate it, for Tails flight have the same rules and "if on the move" physics.
A little detail is that Sonic 3 alone have 6 save files, while S3&K have 8: I remember this from my Genesis days, it allowed exactly two save slots for each possible composition (S, T, S&T, K).
And I so wish Origins had the option to play solo S3 and solo S&K: honestly, Knuckles campaign feels just like a "what if", that has him starting in Mushroom Hill like solo S&K: in the "complete" game, why he starts in Mushroom then suddenly is on Angel Forest, only to go through the stages and he back in Mushroom Hill?
I had to remind myself that Knuckles starting in Angel Island was a Sonic 3 Complete feature and not in the original game.
Also I just binged all your Sonic retrospectives and your channel is AMAZING, really level headed and not too long videos that take on all the important Sonic games with super chill music and great narration with funny jokes. I look forward to whatever comes next.
I can't believe bro pronounced it hydrocity instead of hydrocity 😏
I’ve always pronounced it High - dros- cit- tee
That's how we know he's Megamind in disguise.
High-dro City. Because it makes more sense of the context of the zone.
@@timjackdirector nah it's hydrocity sounding like velocity because sonic is fast
Am I the only one who heard him say 'hydro-kitty'? 😂
Respect for saying the 3 sprites are more on model. Don’t see that opinion very much - always thought they resembled the Japanese art more than the 1/2 look, which in turn looks more like the American art imo with the rounded head and such.
Also like your use of chill dnb/jungle
These sprites are my favorite. Basically the best because Sonic and fam were supposed to be “edgy” right? Sonic and co seem way more animated!
The cool thing about Sonic's "new" sprites from Sonic 3 is that he looks more mature than he did in previous games, as if he had aged slightly, bringing him closer to his then-upcoming Dreamcast design without clashing with what we had known up until that point. A shame this was never really reflected in any of the promotional artwork for the game, regardless of regions.
Perhaps my favorite game ever. Just nostalgic and so replayable. Excited for this!
I see why people find Marble Garden Zone a drag…but fucking Sandopolis 2 can fuck right off the bat
Tbh Sandopolis 2 wasn't even that bad it was kinda fun in my opinion and not even that long compared to what people say
Marble Garden Zone was pretty bad because of the annoying gimmick with that blue platform
10:00 Ice Cap Zone was sequenced by Buxer, but he took the melody from the 1982 song "Hard Times" by The Jetzons, who he had previously worked with. Also, it's almost without a doubt Jackson helped with the sound track (voice and some melodies), but did not fully compose any songs, thus not credited (unfairly). Nonetheless, most music wasn't brought over to the releases due to copyright restrictions, because of these involvements.
I'm sorry- "Hi-do-ro-crit-y"?!
"Hi-drock-i-die"?!?!
is that not how you say it ?
sounds more like he said hydro-kitty to me
@@Dog1167 that was the third time her said it
@@alphabae7512 her?
@@riggims its Hydro City or all one word pronounced Hi-dross-Sittee
I'm 41 years old. Played every sonic on Genesis without the CD or 32x. Every sonic game on Game Gear. Sonic 3 and Knuckles WAS the best, but sadly I think Sonic Mania is the creme de la creme.
I loved playing Mania when it came out, but it doesn't hold up. I definitely feel like they ruined some of it by releasing Plus, a couple new playable characters and redesigned levels is what RomHacks are for, there was plenty they could have done with entirely new levels and bosses
Verily!
Mania's fantastic, but when the majority of the game is old zones with some new paint, is it really the best? I dunno... I kinda think sonic 3 and knuckles is better. Just about equal quality but without reusing old levels
@@phoenixwright784 the majority of the game is NOT old zones. if you mean old zone "themes" then maybe there's an argument to be had there. but those are new levels. with very small parts taken from the originals & they only do it on the first act. act 2 stages are 100% new.
@@asdfxcvbn746 I mean, they aren't a 100% copy and paste of the old levels, but even with the new/newish level designs, It's still hard to get excited over these old levels, or at least not as excited as the few 100% new levels that are in the game.
Also, act 2s aren't 100% new either. Act 2 of Flying Battery zone, for example, has similarities to Wing Fortress zone.
I'm not trying to bash Mania. It is absolutely fantastic and as a classic sonic fan, I'm obviously very happy that it exists. I just wish more of it was 100% unique and it's own thing. I can't put it above sonic 3 and knuckles for this reason.
I’m actually working on a video that tries to pinpoint who wrote which songs for this game and I gotta say, I do like the prototype tracks a lot. However, I feel that the way Origins’ versions are mixed does disservice to how good they actually are as musical compositions.
Sonic 3&K like I’ve stayed before is one of my favorite sonic games and even what I consider the best classic sonic game. Your review definitely did justice, and the criticisms you bring up are valid and I’m happy your reason is to show how even when things can’t seem to be better there are still higher places to go. Great vid can’t wait for the next one.
Carival Night Zones music fits that stage perfectly, even if its annoying, the circus sample just belongs i cant picture the stage without it, in fact i cant picture any of the stages without the retail songs
25:00 you can spin dash into the upside down ones if doing the anti gravity missed, not as efficient as cheesing camping at the switch, but a bit more fun
I'll have to remember this for my next playthrough
@@spontmanalso you can spin dash in between the Final Bosses fingers
And sometimes when you do that you just fall into the bottom of the screen for some weird reason at least in the original versions @RakoonCD
@@Polynyce I meant to say his hands,
✋ 🦔 ✋
👊 🔵🔅👊
I didn't know this until I was an adult, lol.
9:40 I don't trust your judgment then
11:05 the super peelout made sense in sonic cd, where if you try to get the good ending(without the time stones) you have to use the time traveling mechanic. Also the super peelout moves faster and charges faster and better. In my tails playthrough, there were times where I took damage or was inconvenienced due to not having the super peelout, flying doesn't even help that much in sonic cd like tails and sonic are equal difficulty there.
I heard somewhere that MJ didn’t like the way his music sounded on the genesis and since sega couldn’t make the music sound better due to the genesis hardware at the time he didn’t want his name credited in the music
The problem with that fallacy is that he was completely content with his tracks in Michael Jackson's Moonwalker and was totally fine with being credited for them for that game, which didn't even sound as good as S3&K's tracks, both FM instrument wise and sample wise.
So then why would he backpedal on that stance just for S3&K?
@@Turbulation1I always thought his name was removed because of his pedo-related controversies.
@@AnonDudeBro I feel like that was the more likely reason.
LOVE YOUR VIDEOS SO MUCH. THANKS BRO. You made my day bro. This makes me sosososo happy and I love it!
8:24 was *genius* and I might need to start using that.
Also great video! Shame about the Knuckles bit though. But I get it for sure, it doesn't allow for a seamless flow. You might like a mod to Sonic Mania called Sonic Megamix Mania. It lets you go into and out of a glide at will, and exiting a glide gives a small double jump
One of the rare games I would give my highest grade: EXCEPTIONAL. It's certainly rough in places, but it does so much right that they don't matter much in the long run.
Also, it looks GORGEOUS! Playing on a Mega Drive with an RGB Scart cable brought out the best in the visuals, and I couldn't take my eyes off the screen. It's honestly as visually striking and inspiring as a 1950s Chuck Jones cartoon.
Great video, albeit one with too many "in my opinion" moments.
Yeah I wish I had realized how much I overused that phrase before I recorded the VO. Oh well.
10:06 - I paused the video just to comment about Snow Cap music, decided to unpaused to at least finish the music section of the video, and was not disappointed.
Perfect summary on this game and I like the drum and bass music choices in background you used that connects with the vibe excellent video
To be fair in the comparisons to the soundtrack the reason people are complaining about the Origins soundtrack is due to a distinct compressed audio compared to the original and that the replacement / original tracks had better sounding versions
Edit I see that you just mentioned this in the video and in the comments and in my opinion I like to use the origins version for Act 2 and use the MJ ones for act 1
If they had just gone with the versions from the Nov. 1993 Sonic 3 prototype IMO the complaints would be almost nonexistent, or at the least far, far smaller.
7:39 As I understand it, Michael Jackson wasn't happy with how the music came out and requested to be left uncredited.
Absolutely incredible video as always. Your unique writing style always keeps me invested.
oh and btw, it was confirmed by Masa himself in a tweet that MJ did in fact work on some of the OSTs for the game. You said it was just a rumor. (7:24)
Sorry. Like I said, I'm not very well versed on the topic.
25:00 While this doesn't invalidate your point, did you not know you could spin dash into the spike guys when they're flipped over in order to point them back towards the boss?
Pro: gave us Knuckles.
Con: Carnival Night Zone.
Carnival Night Zone ain't that bad. You just suck.
I didn't have problems with that Zone honestly
Cant believe it's 30 years.... feels like yesterday.
I call it Hydrocity (hydrawcity), Not Hydro-city. Because its one word and I think it sounds cooler
Great review man, also love the liquid dnb backing tracks. ☝️🙏
I think Spontman doesn't know the "super glide move" that Knuckles have. I don't know if he still has it in Sonic Origins, though.
Something I loved and blew my mind after discovering Doomsday Zone, was playing with Knuckles w/ all the chaos emeralds and discover the Final Boss Fight had a second phase "unlockable" like doomsday zone!
As Mushroom Hill Zone's #1 enjoyer i have got to say you are doing that zone so dirty. You only have to actually use the pulley once and that's at the very end of act 2, yes its slow but you can avoid 90% of them. Imo its one of the best zones in the game
The two acts do have a beautiful spring and autumn visual vibe to them.
5:29 Not trying to be rude, but it's "Hydro-City".
Is it better than Sonic Mania? Yeah, it is. And I will die on this hill. Sonic Mania was fantastic, but nothing can top Sonic 3&K for me
6:21
I agree
But for some reason, the sprites look like if Modern Sonic (more of sonic from SA2) was short and didn't have green eyes
"with that amount it's inevitable that a few stinkers slipped through the crack" you got me with that line.
I'm cursed to write fart jokes even when I'm not trying to
25:25 you can spindash into eggman when he bounces back up after he comes down from the top of the screen for one hit (as shown in the timestamp) but you can also hit him with your insta-shield if you're not super sonic for a couple more hits.
24:55 Putting this here because I didn't find it out until years later. You can actually SPINDASH into the little spike bots if they are flipped upside-down, It helps leagues in making this fight more tolerable, faster, and bordering actually enjoyable. As doing so will launch them toward the boss in an arc, turning a boring timing "challenge" into a more fun accuracy and ammo management fight that also ends way faster.
...Still not exactly my favorite, though.
Edit: I just saw someone else's comment on this too, but I am still putting mine here to help that info spread!
9:02 That mini boss theme is badass, one of the best 16bit video game compositions ever 🔥🔥
Definitely agree with you there. The problem is that the back-half of the miniboss theme from Sonic 3 never gets heard, because the first time you fight a miniboss you're laser-focused on the fight and not paying attention to the music, and every time after that the fight is over within 15-30 seconds.
Side note: Even as a kid, I recognized them putting the Knuckles percussive theme "buh-duh DAH ca duh, duh dukka DUH" into that miniboss theme, and I always pictured Knuckles in the background, helping out the miniboss since he was on Robotnik's side. I wonder if that was the was the original intent, but they couldn't make it work. It cannot be coincidence.
I'm actually kind of curious as to why you think Mushroom Hill is one of the game's weaker zones as it actually ended up being my favorite Sonic zone.
25:48 Expected footage of using the spin dash to bounce between the fingers. The true way to maximise your hits.
Sonic 3 sprite is the best i love it
13:05: (alright, lemme get the book out) Knuckles' campaign takes place AFTER Sonic & Tails' campaign.
The first Boss on Death egg you can trow the fliped spiky bombs into the Boos using spindash after making them fall upside down after changing gravity.
For the second Boss you can shred the finger making the hands fall close to the other and using Spindash, you would bonce on them over and over again doing a ton of damage.
And I prefer the Sonic 2 Special stages, the ones in 3 and Knuckles are STRESS, incarnated, they always made my hands sweet a lot, and the stupid music and the speed going faster if you take to long is just evil, but oh boy, when I got the seven emeralds for the first tome when I was 9, I became a Super Sonic abuser every time I played and didn't regret a thing XD.
I guess the original Sonic 3 music fell on Hard Times.
“Hidorockity”
Dib’t you mean High Velocity zone?
The prototype soundtracks were also used for the PC version, which was my first version of Sonic 3. I'm a little thrilled to see them make a come back.
Fun fact: For the finger portion of the final boss fight you can spin dash and it counts the hits without killing you.
Great video!
I love hearing new and fresh opinions on my favorite game of all time. Good video structure and a voice I can stand to listen to for long periods of time
24:55
You can spin dash the _piketurtles_ right at the right time and damage the boss, invert gravity is not the only way to turn its weapons against him
I’m so in love with this game
I'm preparing my pitchfork 😡
You could also, attach Sonic 2, to Sonic & Knuckles. Would allow you to play as Knuckles in Sonic 2.
I'm surprised you did not mention super sonic making you hear the invincibility theme looped forever as a negative.
A main reason why I never use the Super forms.
Marble Garden Zone is my favorite level in S3&K. Sandopolis Zone is my second favorite level in S3&K.
Rewatching Acts 1 and 2 of Angel Island now, it looks like a documentary of the town of Lahaina (which I visited once) being ravaged by wildfires last summer.
One of the greatest games ever made
i agree, I just finished this game last night on twitch with the 14 chaos emeralds... its a masterpiece...
Huge points both for acknowledging the Origins remixes as actually being prototype versions and not just being like "just play Sonic 3 A.I.R. lol" with the Origins version, much appreciated!
Sonic 3&knuckles is a masterpiece the best sonic ever made for the sega genesis there are so many secrets that need to be discovered yet
I love S3&K, to me, its still the best Sonic game ever, followed shortly by Sonic Mania Plus (Only because of which came first). And can we all which played Sonic 2 og and Sonic 2 Origins just appreciate that end scene were you actually see the Death Egg base fall at the end of S2O? That attention to detail was just so, so needed
I’ve learned to like Launch Base Prototype, Buxter’s Icecap is irreplaceable, but I 100% prefer Prototype Carnival Night. Sonic 3 Complete has my favorite rendition of Act 2 and was my introduction to it. Do recommend
Damn, I've played this one more than any other, ever since it came out. Also, a tip for the "last boss" -> don't jump on its fingers, just spindash until they drop on you and then release. Kills them a lot faster.
Everyone who has played Doomsday zone gets a little tingle when you hear the super sonic chirp just before the dun dun duhh 26:13
I love how you put the japanese versions of sonic and his friends on the titles of your videos 😊. The best ones on my opinion.
I actually like a lot of the NA art too, but people seem to respond more to the JP art (and I can't blame them, it's very clean)
You're right 😊@@spontman
5:29, 8:24, 18:05 Those pronuniciations of "Hydrocity"'s name, I love it. 😂
Sonic 3&K was always my favorite to play from the originals.. it was the one I played the most as a kid, despite never being able to finish the game. After picking up Origins and completing with every character + grabbing the super emeralds I had an absolute blast. The points you brought up were good and valid, also (I agree, the sprites for this game are superior)
5:29: "Hid-er-rocket-ey" Scott the Woz fan, I see
I feel the same way about knuckles. Classic sonic level design is all about the three core elements: speed, platforming, and exploration. Knuckles' moveset does not work well at all with the speed aspect of these games at all, seeing how the climb does not work with slopes at all and how gliding makes you lose all speed. However his moveset works well enough with exploration and platforming which is why I still think he's still enjoyable.
I've always thought of Knuckles as a character you use for exploring. Even in Sonic 1 & 2 he's fun to use.
@@Akirathehusky Yeah I agree but to me exploration in sonic games is at its best when speed is involved.
I agree with the music take tbh. I think the new remixes of the prototype carnival night have to be the highlight like you showed. I never understood why people were hating on it and I still don’t.
Am I missing something? Is the name of the underwater level not pronounced ‘Hydro City zone?’ 5:27
Parts of the fandom are convinced that it's pronounced High-drossity, and arguments have occurred as a result, so Spontman made up some alternate pronunciations as a joke.
@@JediMB cheers bro, thought I was going mad. 😂
Sonic 3&K's not a game without flaws, but that's such a thing with every game. This review was quite fair and I don't think you were actually too negative here. (also I agree that the sonic 3 origins soundtrack hate is quite overblown, if you listen to the versions from the leaked sonic 3 prototype that was found in 2019, it sounds really good!)
You can actually make the death egg zone act 1 boss fun by spin dashing instead of just going up and down in the elevators the entire time, just my opinion tho 🤷
Sorry, I know you don't like the Carnival Night Zone music - but the proper one is better and has a lot more going on with it than you might appreciate.
There's a link between different Sonic music and different games - the chromatic tumble you showed in the clip was from 'Entrance of the Gladiators', which better fits the whole carnival theme, and it's also a shout back to Mystic Cave. Also, Ice Cap Zone is probably my favourite Sonic 3 music and I refuse to play that zone to anything else.
Entrance of the Gladiators is the most stereotypical and obvious choice for a circus-themed song, I'm not sure what's supposed to be clever about that. It also doesn't make the song itself sound any less awful.
@@spontman Carnival Night Zone is the weakest of the 3 replaced songs, but the replacement still sounds like a cheap knock-off to me (even though it's technically the original). Entrance of the Gladiators isn't the only thing going on, but I can't really break it down in a comment - there's a few music theory channels around who break down sonic music, and it's actually really interesting
I love how u said "Dr EggBotnik". Lol
Just like the last stage in sonic campaign the STORY Progression was the element that made it stand out as the best in the franchise for me.
25:11 And then you spin dash into the upside down ones, flipping them again while you get knocked back into the gravity tunnel where you repeat the process again on the other side with those same spikey things, which are conveniently flipped again (the ones that didn't hit the boss on the way down, that is). You did that, right?
Im sorry but did you call hydrocity, "hidrokity" please with all due respect, activate the spike bug and throw yourself im a pit of spikes my good sir. :)
Lol holy shit I was literally gonna comment the same damn thing. I’m hoping hidrokity is some kind of inside joke. Btw, team HY-DRAH-SIT-E
@@Wza456 lmao, honestly I'm on the same boat with you, it ain't no damn city there's no inhabitants lol
23:26 FINALLY SOMEONE WHO FELT MY PAIN AFTER DOING THAT 😭
6:17 you are not alone in that opinion. They are indeed the best, and I cram to understand why Evening Star didn't use those sprites in Sonic Mania, but instead defaulted to Sonic 1? 😭
The sphere levels were my absolute fav bonus levels.......except for I grew up in the 90s and tv's weren't the cheapest thing back then. So I had a hand me down 13" Black and White tv........ I learned how to tell the shades of grey apart in the end :D
Outstanding video. Been playing this game for 30 years and everything you said is spot on. I've beaten this game more than any other and while it has it's objective flaws it's still perfect in my eyes. Sonic Mania is just as great, but lacks originality since nearly all the zones were just reused.
Making good music for the Genesis was an art and a science, the best chip tunes on the system were done by people who had both music experience and programming experience like Yuzo Koshiro for example was quite fluent in programming Z80 assembly getting his start making games for the PC 88. If the Brad Buxer guy was coming from a record label studio experience he must've lacked technical know-how.
The high watermark of the entire series and it still hasn't been topped. Sonic 2 and Mania were close, but didn't have the stage design and the heart of S3&K
The original ice cap zone soundtrack was the best.. It fit the snow level perfectly.
ac-hem it's actually pronounced Hydroi-shitty
9:44 I don't like Sonic 3K all that much and even I know you are as wrong as you could possibly be lmfao
24:14 Hyper Sonic and the bosses are the best things about S3K
hydrokity