Byron rubbed me wrong because he had such a cult leader vibe that was incredibly intense. His adherents also had a hard dose of group think as well. It just pushed EVERY creep nerve I have. Byron sat there apparently feeding off B5 charity instead of having his people out looking for the resources and planet to move to.
I didn't think about the impact of wrapping up the civil war story early. Once I started thinking about it, I really could see Byron as written working much better if Sheridan and the station were still caught up in the much larger ongoing and gradually escalating war. Creepy cult leader Byron just doesn't work without that larger ongoing pressure distorting everyone's views until it is too late. With the war, the entire telepath story and its characters needed a complete rethink.
You pretty much nailed it when you mentioned how Byron was an insufferable cult leader. I also did not like how they just abruptly decided we're going to go from fighting for a new world to killing ourselves. That whole episode seemed forced and illogical.
@@Phintasmo To be fair, the treatment of telepaths in S5 was rather appaling. Lyta was completely right - after all she'd done for them and suffered through, they just abandon her when she falls on hard times! And it applies to Ts in general. I mean, we've dealt with the fascist regime that was in cahoots with cosmic horrors and nearly destroyed Earth, and we're now moving into the better, more enlightened era of freedom and cooperation. But the Psy Corps? Arguably the second most prominent symbol of that regime's evils (after the Night Watch)? Nah, we're keeping that; can't have those dangerous freaks running around snooping after our creepy fetishes and underhanded deals! Even though both Minbari and Centauri somehow manage without such a structure (I think), and maybe that's something we might culturally appropriate from them. Come to think of it, Bester shaped up to be the main villain of S5 (What? "Drakhs"? Yeah, right.) He terrorized Lyta, he did all that horrible shit to Garibaldi, pushing him to drink again, he gloated about murdering Talya, and he came down on the (initally) peaceful commune of telepaths. And he got away scot free (Yes, I know he got his in the books, doesn't count)! That is some major bullshit.
@@PhintasmoSo much of the Telepath plot was wasted potential. When you have people who can read thoughts and alter perceptions and memories, you have a major story engine. Byron changing goals could easily be handled with a little jiggery pokery -he has his will subtly eroded by radicals, he was a psi corps plant, he became an mouthpiece of the colony as a Hivemind and his sanity was shredded with too many voices, etc. The rest of the plot for S5 was much better than I'd expected, but the telepath plot dragged it down. Guess it was the biggest casualty of the final season.
The telepath plot was badly done. I kept expecting a reveal that psycorp had compromised Byron. As to psycorp not being dismantled and minbari etc dealing better with Ts I think a big reason for that was the fact human Ts did not occur naturally and gradually but due to the Vorlons interference. There was limited opportunity for gradual socialisation and integration and acceptance. It was kind of a moot point anyway as earlier episodes more than suggested that the genetically modified humans with such abilities would eventually be unable to sustain their numbers and would gradually lose the ability to produce descendants who shared those abilities. So a telepath colony would after a few generations just be a colony of mundanes.
I have always said season six should have been the telepath war, with a final season 7 being the Drakh war that then lead into Crusade on a high. I think part of why Crusade failed - studio interference aside - was because of the damage done by Byron's arc. B5 had just spent 5 years building up to the climatic confrontation with the Shadows, culminating in a war in heaven between the Shadows and the Vorlons, if it was to continue past that point it needed to start building up to towards the next big confrontation and the Telepath and Drakh wars are two major events in the lore.
JMS was holding the Telepath War in reserve for a motion picture with a modest budget of $30 to $35 million. This is why that event is carved out of the timeline with Crusade picking up after it is over. He thought it would be a great send off for B5 and would allow the cast to get a proper paycheck. Of course, it never happened and we are all left with holes in our minds. Byron's death was the catalyst propelling Lyta toward this conflict and the cause of her eventual death. A Call to Arms starts on the five-year anniversary of the Interstellar Alliance and notes the deaths on both sides in the recent telepath conflict, especially.... The Drakh "war" was seen in a Call to Arms, although Drakh incursion or siege is a more proper description. After that brazen assault, they went back to their usual routine of hiding in the shadows and continued to be a problem until 2278, when the Drakh Leader was hilariously killed by Michael Garibaldi after the rescue of David Sheridan.
Season 5 could be an example of the extended arc being too rigid. Without the Earth civil war to anchor the first half they needed something new and impactful to take its place (Telepath War would have done it - or move up the Drakh stuff earlier and provide more resolution later.) Instead it feels like they beefed up something that was intended to be a side story. Its a shame Crusade didnt last as we would almost certainly have got all the things you mentioned in some form or another.
That's the problem, the Drakh war wasn't seen in _Call to Arms,_ they had already lost the war by this point, because remember it's a five year time jump. All it showed was a spiteful attack on Earth to set up Crusade. We needed to see a war that was a very real threat to the nascent Alliance on screen, not hear references to it in a TV movie pilot for a new show.
@@saladinbob The spiteful attack out of left field was the only direct conflict with the Drakh. There was no actual war, just the single assault. They had been hiding on Centauri Prime with their very patient and very silly plan to get back at Sheridan in 17 years and then they suddenly decided instead to destroy Earth on the fifth anniversary of the IA. After the ass kicking they seemed to go back back into hiding except for a few random encounters. There was no prolonged conflict during the intervening 5 years. The Drakh had managed to get the Shadow Cloud up and running and tested it in secret in preparation for a surprise attack. Earth would have had no idea they were coming had Galen not tipped off Sheridan and sent him on a quest in A Call to Arms. Once the cloud and much of the Drakh fleet were destroyed, they were no longer a match for the IA forces and the withdrew to Centauri Prime.
@@Phintasmo Crusade was getting ready to go down some rabbit holes. The unfilmed scripts were really good. The telepath war, part 2 would have started gearing up.
The entire telepath arc always seemed off to me from the time Lyta got cut loose after the Shadow war. Up until then, Sheridan always backed his people & took care of them. Then Lyta basically wins the war for him and he....doesn't even pay her rent. Much less employ her as he well could have done as a very useful ally. That didn't fit the character he had been established as. Then yes, Byron was a cult leader and rather insufferable for it, while his telepaths were creepy cyphers we were supposed to care about, but they never got humanized/personalized enough to make the connection. It also never made sense to me that there wasn't even a single planet in the entire known universe that they could have been offered - if for no other reason that the offering government wanted them as extremely strong allies (especially useful ones in the newly mostly-commercial relations after the previous Shadow-inspired-warring the universe had been).
I think if they had asked for it first, there might have been offers. The problem was: They went straight to blackmail, showing up front they couldn't be trusted. Proving everyone's suspicion to be right. And the next issue is, they wanted everything haded to them, unwilling to make any concessions, and that's just not how things work. No matter how 'fair' it seems to them, they have to accept that they are indeed dangerous people and others are wary. By trying blackmail, they made themselves into the enemy.
What certainly didn't help things was the challenges of broadcast television. In the 90s, you didn't have your extras speak or you'd have to pay them more. So you get a lot of people standing around nodding as the principle actors monologue to them. In Byron's case, you ended up with a room full of people staring at him wistfully without saying a word, and it just significantly ups the creep factor.
The Lyta character arc made no sense whatsoever. She's the only known non-Vorlon to have been to the Vorlon homeworld. She's obviously the strongest human telepath to anyone that can fog up a window. She's literally the only reason Sheridan and Garibaldi survived the Earth Civil War. If she hadn't been able to read Garibaldi's mind and project his memories Garibaldi would have been executed and Sheridan would not have been rescued. Good chance he gets executed as well. Decent chance the Earth Civil War ends in a stalemate or drags out and severely weakens the Alliance. Screw political concerns between the newly founded Interstellar Alliance and the Earth Alliance. Lyta should have been part of the inner circle from the start. Her being forced back into the Psi Corps' fold was an absurd plot point. It felt like JMS had an endgame in mind, but went about reaching it in the worst way possible.
I think you hit it with the "Cult Leader" vibe, and noting he had to stretch the Byron plot with rewrites because Claudia was off the show. This telepath arc (JMS has written) was only supposed to be about three or four episodes. 1) Byron shows up. 2) Byron hangs out attracting Lyta/Ivanova 3) Byron gets laid and finds out about Vorlon manipulation. 4) Byron goes aggro and gets taken out by Psi Corp. Stretching that from about 4 episodes to half a season just hurt. Budget cuts, shooting schedule cuts and the contract snafu with Claudia running long into pre-production meat JMS was too overloaded to really refine the stretched out story.
Season 5 was a bit of a letdown in some ways. The studio politics really messed with the story pacing through the whole series. But this was just a clumsy mess. I was rooting for PsiCorps almost from the time Byron walked on stage. We were lucky to get the quality of B5 we got.
There's an apocryphal story about a really badly acted stage production of the Diary of Anne Frank - during the climax someone in the audience shouted 'She's in the attic!'
You cannot help but feel sorry for Lochley because she correctly assesses the situations thrown at her and knows how she wants to run things but is overruled by her ex-husband and the old crew at almost every turn.
I really empathized with Lochley's frustration with Sheridan and the whole situation. Strangely, she comes out the best from the whole saga. By the end we've been given a really good picture of her decision making process - also she shines in contrast to the incompetence of everyone else. I just checked out one of your podcasts (Day of the Dead) - its a great listen! You guys know this stuff inside out. And kudos for working your way through the ENTIRE series!
@@Phintasmo The movies at least show how chill Lochley's command is! Thanks for checking out our stuff and we're keen to see what B5 videos you have coming up, perhaps one about Lochley being a better character than people give her credit for! Upon a re-watch it's pretty clear that she's just so god damn funny.
@@yumyumpodcast I think a problem is with her being all high and mighty that she stayed on the side of Clark. The scene with that little speech she gives Garibaldi just rubs the wrong way and makes little sense in context with what had happened. Despite that, the scene almost literally ends with the joke: "And then everybody clapped". I really think that without that scene, her overall perception would have been higher. There is probably more to it, but it has been too long since I watched the show. I really should fix that soon ^^
@@MarijnvdSterre We talk about the problems of that scene often on the podcast! Honestly think her rationale works well as a justification people who were on the wrong side would use and it makes sense that Lochley believes it. The great thing about that speech is it gives us an insight into a mentality of this character and puts into motion an arc in which we we see over the course of the season her ideals get challenged in many ways and eventually she flips her stance on a personal level with her not being able to stay out of what is happening with Garibaldi and his relapse. All of this is majorly undercut by the fact the crowd claps and thus the show itself seemingly sides with her very clearly skewed point of view.
@@yumyumpodcast I agree completely. The problem isn't with her rational itself. It does make sense for her. And you make a good point about the show "feeling" like it wants us to side with her (at least partly). And since the viewers are not, it really gets the hackles up. That latches on Lochley and not the scene itself or the show. The scene might have worked perfectly fine if there had been no clapping, but some head shaking.
Byron's problem with Psi-Corps could've been more easily dealt with if he had non-human telepaths among his group. It would've elevated them to I.S.A. jurisdiction solely. That he didn't have alien telepaths among his group I think is telling. Just as is his past as a Psi-Cop. Whether Byron was intending to or not, I think with his high P-rating, he was subtly manipulating everyone in his group into conformity (given that he would only lose control when his people started showing strong emotions). The show mentions alien minds being very difficult on a human telepath but that should not have been an issue if Byron wasn't trying to use his abilities to control them. Thus, cult leader. His cause was admirable given that telepaths were indeed created for use as weapons and not the result of natural evolution. And while his reaction to finding this out seemed against his character, at the same I'm not exactly sure how I would act finding out my entire existence and everything I had been made to believe and believe in was a lie either. Basically his characterization and how he's talked about by others; that disconnect, is what I think we were supposed to have been paying attention to. Even if Byron's not trying to be, to modify an expression: you can take the Psi-Cop out of the Corps but you can't take the Corps out of the Psi-Cop. He was trained to believe himself superior to not only normals but superior to other telepaths as well. A wonderful recipe for political leadership...
Yeah, you can tell by all of his groupies dressing like him, having the same long hair and lacking any sort of independent personality. And remember how he first interacted with Lyta? By trying to guilt-trip her with that entire "sit down" farce. He was a friggin cult leader, that's how they gain control of their victims.
The 'sit down' bit was classic negging! He was such a jerk. As for non-human telepaths, I'm glad they kept that separate. We never know a great deal about how the other species govern their teeps and drawing attention to it muddles and confuses the story they are trying to tell with the Psicorp. One of the few times it comes up is in that season 1 episode where the latent telepath girl ends up going off to live with the Minbari. The audience really has to ignore that this happened, because it raises the question of why all the human rogue telepaths don't do this, or why Earth isn't taking issue with Alien governments harboring fugitives.
@@Phintasmothe reason non human telepathy weren't part of the group is because other cultures have no problem accepting non human telepaths into their society, with humans, its either PsiCorps or nothing. Byron knows better than most how indoctrination and controlling the PsyCorps can be. What he was trying to do was bring structure and organization to the rogue telepaths so they could achieve their aims of striking out on their own and build a future for themselves and provide a stable and sustainable alternative to the PsyCorps. In addition, he was fed up with how so called normal people always seem to.beg and plead for telepaths to help solve their problems, fight their wars, but the very minute telepaths ask for help from normal people, suddenly 'there's nothing we can do'. Byron tried appealing to their good nature, tried making a compassionate plea to try to get their help from their good will, and when they kept saying 'there's nothing we can do', that's when they had to resort to forcing the issue. And they weren't asking for much, just an uninhabited world for rogue telepaths to settle on, a safe haven, and Sheridan acts like they're asking for the first born child of every council member.
None of the other races treated their telepaths anywhere near as badly as Psi Corps, so there was no (strong enough) desire for any of them to go into voluntary exile... As for the "created as a weapon" thing, I'm pretty sure it's just as Star Trek TNG's "The Hunted" simply an analogy to how the USA treated their Vietnam war veterans. In both cases, it's blatant, no subtlety whatsoever, which is supposed to give the "created as weapons, then neglected and discarded" party some big bonus points, which were in this case immediately squandered with Byron's "insufferable cult leader" character... (it's one of the few cases where I significantly prefer Star Trek's take on a subject, even though they didn't do it anywhere near as well as one could have done, either)
I’ve thought for nearly 30 years I was the only one that hated Byron. The whole first half of season 5 was so grating. It’s nice to know I’m not all alone in the night.
Exactly. When he went up in flames in his last episode I breathed a sigh of relief.
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@@richardthomas5362 I remember actually saying out loud "Oh thank the great maker he is dead" when it happened and before that I was internally thinking "just die already" I mean FFS they made him so obnoxious and annoying that I was rooting for Bester! A god damn telepath SS space nazi!
Definitely not alone. I was active in forums such as USENET, CompuServe and CiX when B5 was first airing, and absolutely everybody HATED Byron without any exceptions.
Solid analysis. Byron, for all his fault, mainly being annoying, still had a charisma to him. He kind of steals all the scenes he is involved in, even though one might want him not to. The telepath colony arc has a good climax to it as well, and even though S5 isn't as strong as the rest of B5, I don't hate this arc taking the spotlight for the first half.
The actor is good and he does steal every scene he is in. It's a shame that he mainly interacts with Lyta and has no strong connection to any of the other main characters. (Too bad Ivanova wasn't around anymore.) Most people tuned in for the continuing adventures of the established cast but it feels like it becomes the Byron show at times.
I think a lot of people missed the point about the “rogue telepaths”, and Byron in particular. They were, in so many ways, a reflection of the cultural trauma resulting from the Branch Davidians in Waco, TX. Byron in particular is an excellent - if annoying - representation of how cult leaders so often go awry - high on a combination of power and drunk on the adulation of their followers. I never thought of him as a character to like.
True but it's so damned overdone. And Pedowood today doesn't have a single, original idea to explore anymore. Most of it is just atheist "shariah" in the form of nihilistic demoralization. It's not about subtle propaganda hiding in entertainment, but full on propaganda with only a dash of entertainment.
People seem to forget that Waco and Ruby Ridge were very fresh in the American psyche. I too think that JMS coding Byron as a cult leader was VERY MUCH intended.
That's one of the key problems isn't it - on what basis could Sheridan let them stay but not seem like a doofus stumbling into disaster. Maybe they could ratify G'Kar's declaration of principles - then the Telepaths show up and say "You've committed to protecting people who are oppressed by their governments - well we fit the bill!"
Totally agree, I absolutely hated the Byron character, it was totally different and out of place with the rest of the B5 universe, a case of PC / Preaching that went BADLY wrong.
The whole telepath colony made no sense. Imagine Little House on the Prairie but everybody is a telepath. "I sense a million minds that want to suck our blood." Yeah...they're called mosquitoes.
The biggest problem was the underground railroad story arc essentially went away in season four along with telepaths being created by the Vorlons as a counter to the Shadows.. In season 4 we had bit of Lyta. But that mostly revolved around the command staff cutting her loose at the end of the Shadow war. Then we got telepath virus arc, that while reinforcing Psi-Corp bad, did not really show us any corresponding telepaths good (outside Lyta). That meant Byron and the colony showed up without much of the usual setup that B5 did so well during the first four seasons. I remain convinced that had JMS gone into season 4 knowing season 5 was coming he would have done much more setup. Possibly focused on one more telepaths who aided against the Shadows (Early into to Byron). At the end of season 3 Ivanova got contacts for the underground railroad from Dr Franklin so we might have got a mini arc about using the railroad to recruit telepaths. Some of those telepaths might have popped up again throughout the season. Do more setting up of Sheridan’s blind spot towards telepaths, expanding on not just Lyta being blown off but a lot of telepaths being left out in the cold after the Shadow war. That could have done a much better job leading into season 5’s colony arc and making the stakes more personnel. But alas we will never know. JMS has conferred that the Shadow arc would have lasted 3-4 more episodes if he’d had the time but he’s never really said how he would have fleshed out those episodes. I think more emphasis on telepaths would have been a key subplot.
@@Phintasmo Like David Herman and OG MadTV fans. But Robert Atkin Downes(Byron) has voiced everything from the nemesis orcs in Shadow of Mordor/War, to Brynjolf the Theives Guild douche in Skyrim... I just realized Claudia Christensen was also in Skyrim, lol.
@@Phintasmo thanks for the essay by the way. I was way to young to appreciate b5 when it was running. Its time to bench it again. As for Robert Atkin Dowes he is a giga chad when it comes to his roles expecially his voices, Tf2 has an exelent cast and trough that i became aware of his work.
You are very welcome! I still remember how it slowly dawned on me as season 5 progressed that they probably werent going to deliver the Telepath War. Biggest missing chapter in the whole lore!
@@PhintasmoNope. Just a slow build up. The telepath war is actually composed of two parts: Lyta’s War (the destruction of the Psy Corps) Bester’s Return (an armed insurrection against Earthgov by rogue factions of the former Psy Corps). By the time of Crusade, the first part had concluded and the unfilmed script Value Judgments (late Season 1) would have set the second into motion. Neither went well for Bester as he found himself wanted as a war criminal after both of these events. He remained at large until finally captured by Michael Garibaldi in 2271. Bester spent ten years in a Maximum Security prison until his death in 2281. Garibaldi visited his grave and planted something in the Earth above his resting place - a wooden stake.
first the main problem was that the show runners weren't expecting to get renewed for the last season and it why they rushed to get all the mains arc over with, this caused the problem of only having the b-plots to focus on, if Telepath Colony had been woven in with the normal arcs it would have come off much better, the interstellar Alliance would have needed the Telepaths for the war, and could have come built up the relationships slowly and more in depth, so the inevitable confrontation when the war ended would have been more impactful, secondly the way byron was portrayed made him a very bad leader, he left the Psi core, but the Psi core never left him, he antagonized everyone who would be his ally, called normal people mundanes and acted like they were superior, which drove a wedge between then telepaths and normals, there very future depended on cooperation with the interstellar alliance and instead they blackmailed and alliterated everyone who would be willing to help and so on, byron came of as unsympathetic to the audience, more of as a antagonist we rooted to see fall, another problem was we never really addressed how poorly the main cast treated leela and drove her into the Telepath camp
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true when you make Bester of all people look like the good guy, you know you stuffed up making a character the audience is meant to agree with on the ideals.
John Sheridan: "Honey? Can the human telepaths live on some weird outpost in Minbar space somewhere? Delen: "Hmmm.. I don't know. It does make sense with the whole human/minbari souls thing, but I'd have to pull a lot of strings." JS: "It would really piss off Bester." D: "You always did know how to sweet talk me, John."
I think they needed to be more animated, more practical. More human. They just.. stood there being creepy all the time. Also, if you're looking for a place to stay, it seems likely that you'd want everyone else there to think you're good people. Helping them out occasionally even. They should have found a place outside of Earth jurisdiction immediately instead of staying right there, taunting the Psi-core to come and arrest them.
They would have been hunted down no matter where they went (even outside earth jurisdiction). As rogue minorities, their continued existence was unacceptable. A state offering sanctuary would have been the only thing that could have saved them, but none did.
One of the many, many reasons I hate Byron is that he’s completely superfluous. I mean, we’ve known Lyta for four years at this point. Do we need some newb showing up and teaching her how to be a rebel leader? And she just follows him around like a puppy dog? No! Lyta doesn’t need anyone to *teach* her how to lead, she’s already learned it through her years of experience on the show. She spent years running from the Psicorps. She made use of the Underground Railroad, and (probably) ran part of it at some point. So the season takes this character that we know really well and like, and make her an understudy for some pretentious goofus, as though she’s got anything to learn. Now, if Byron was her lieutenant, I doubt anyone would have a problem with it. She says “Jump” and he doesn’t have to ask how high because he already knows ‘cuz he’s a telepath. I mean, think about how cool that could have been: Lyta with her little clan of rogue teeps, all of them just instantly following her whims, intimidating security, stuff like that.
Season 5 seems to be a result of JMS having to use too many of his "outs" because of actors leaving or having already left. Seems like the story just didn't turn out to be what it was intended to be. It's a show-runner's nightmare that causes you to have to make changes on the fly that you were not originally wanting, and having to alter the story to fit the real-life circumstances. It was very disappointing that Claudia Christian left after S4, and I'm sure--like other's have already mentioned--with the Ivanova character still in the show, the season plot arc could have been very different. After all, as Claudia Christian has said, Ivanova was everyone's favorite Telepathic, Russian, Lesbian, Jew.
Even as a teenager Byron annoyed the hell out of me. I couldn't have articulated what exactly it was at the time, but looking back with this in mind I think you nailed it.
I'm at a loss for words...mostly because I had COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN this. Ugh. The most punchable face in SF goes up against the most loathesome semi-regular in the show and...suddenly Bester is the reincarnation of Randolph Scott.* Who WASN'T rooting for Bester at the end of this? *Scott: see "Blazing Saddles". I shall now cry in my coffee. THANKS. (OK, I guess I'll subscribe now. What IS this place. Ta.)
I'm just rewatching S5 for the first in years and I can't believe they only sang it twice. Overall I thought the plotline had more good things going for it then I remembered, but it's definitely uneven as heck. And the first singing scene is atrocious.
the thing about telepaths in the B5 universe is they were only a stepping stone in evolution, in s4 final it's implied that humanity evolves into a race much like the Vorlons were , if anything Psi corps held the evolution back with there inhouse breeding program. for example when Lyta went all control mode at the end of s5 it was Sheridan a mere mundane shut her down simply because he had also walked with the Vorlons.
I think it would have been interesting to see how this story would have gone if they hadn't "killed off" Talia. Every time I rewatch the show I find it a little jarring how just when she starts getting interesting, she's gone. I think if we continued on with her until season 5 instead of Lyta, let her and Ivonova become lovers, And of course still had Claudia Christian in season 5, I feel like this arc would have played out in a very different way. Talia and Ivanova could have been made to be at odds in the colony situation, putting pressure on their relationship and testing their commitments. The telepaths could have potentially been leaderless, a spot that Talia could have filled. This way even if the arc followed its same general path, It would have been more impactful since it was a character we've known for five seasons, especially if she dies like Byron. Yah know, instead of THAT guy. It'll be curious to see where JMS goes with this new reboot!
That would have been fantastic! Talia Winters was great and its a shame actress left. Still, its amazing JMS was able to keep things going for five seasons despite all the departures.
That was never the plan but the original intent, before the "Claudia Situation" was that Susan would assume command of B5 and still be in mourning for Marcus and John Sheridan would temporarily conduct the business of the IA from there as well. When Byron and his band of kooks arrive, Susan would immediately sympathize with them based on her long-standing hatred of the Psy Corps. Sheridan, trying to abide by the rules and play it safe in the fledgling Alliance, would refuse their request for sanctuary and Susan would override him, as was her right. This would create a conflict since we've never seen Susan disobey Sheridan before. Their relationship has almost been like sister and brother over the years with John standing in for the big brother she lost in the war. Her going against him and endangering the Alliance could be seen as an act of betrayal by his closest and most loyal officer. They flipped the dynamic in Season 5 and it never made much sense the way it played out in the show. Sheridan tells Lochley that station ops are her decision and immediately overrides that decision in the same episode. Now, on to Byron. Susan immediately becomes enamored of this man with long hair and a British accent possibly out of guilt for spurning our favorite virginal Ranger and gets romantically involved with Discount Marcus. This, of course, turns out to be just another bad relationship choice for the long-suffering Ivanova who ultimately ends up as a middle-aged lonely General who never found true love. Lyta would still be there but only as a super-powered acolyte of Byron. After his death, she would go off in search of revenge pretty much the way she does in Season 5. Dramatically speaking, all these points make perfect sense and would have fueled much better drama but remove one block and the whole structure crumbles. I still don't know if the telepath arc would have been good overall with these changes, but it certainly would have been better.
@@quantumsledgehammer1629 It’s true though. Ivanova would be drawn to him primarily because of his similarities to a certain flamboyant Ranger. Once she listened to him talk for a few hours, the relationship would be over.
I hated Byron and his band because they were a bunch of selfish cowards who (after hiding under their beds during the shadow war) came out and Demanded everyone kiss their butts and give them what they perceived was owed to them from people who had no part in hurting them. Lyta and the telepaths who fought and died, just like 'mundanes' knew what Byron and his worms could never figure out. As the rangers say "We live for the one, we die for the one" Even when B5 was attacked all they did was protect themselves and to hell with everyone else, If these gutless bullies want reparations, go find the Vorlons
This hit the nail on the head. I loved the show up until that point, and thought it had so many elements that other sci-fi shows lacked. Then Season 5 came along and Jumped the Shark, and I thought it was not even the same show anymore.
My biggest problem with the telepath subplot was that we already knew from previous seasons, that the Minbari care for their telepaths, and treat them with great respect, and lay no obligations on them. In return, they might perform certain services for the people.. So, WHY DIDN'T the telepaths EMIGRATE TO MINBAR? They could have led free lives, away from Earth's laws-- just as they wanted!
Minbari are deeply religious to control their behavior, much like valcan from star trek. Whie warrior caste is overbearing, all them keep their matters with a share belief. Incorporating humans to the ranger was heated debate among them, likly only accepted due to coming shadow war. Human telepaths would have been much more difficult matter. With worker caste hold major of power in grey council, why built homes for those who wouldn't be part of Minbar? Centuri seem to have some measures to use telepathy their stances and positions of power, like the emperors "herm" (there a more appropriate term, but they are telepathy for emperor to keep in touch of homeworld while away,) Of course, the who galaxy is just recovering from shadow war, with many worlds destroyed. Even minbar just when through a civil war. So the last thing any world want is more refugees who can read minds, not without security measures in place when human telepathy wouldn't been accepting.
Perhaps the problem with the Telepath arc on B5 was not so much how the characters of Byron and Sheridan were written, but simply that there was no good solution to it. And no Kirkian solution to this Kobayashi Maru type situation, either. In that case there is no "Sheridan sitting on his ass", but simply him trying and failing to solve an unsolvable problem. Equally, Byron and his telepaths becoming more radical would simply be par for the course: a natural reaction to being confronted with an unsolvable conundrum that you *have* to solve in order to surivive. Fight in stead of flight, with some desperate moves like the blackmail for their own planet being perhaps a bold final move born of sheer exasperation. Perhaps more painful than how Babylon 5 handled this plotline, is how easily Crusade solved it: by simply adding a fourth option to the grim list of prison, Psi Corps or debilitating drugs. And that was allowing telepaths to roam free in society, as long as they did not abuse their powers, with the Psi Corps standing watch to apprehend any offenders, just like the regular police enforce regular laws. Clean and simple, putting the whole telepath crisis during Babylon 5's final season in a somewhat cringy perspective: if only they had thought of this solution sooner...
The psicorp was an imperfect solution that got entrenched and went rotten over the course of a couple of hundred years. I can believe it had reached a point where a major reckoning was needed to bring about a new status quo. I agree that there was this inevitable sense it was going to end badly and there wasn’t a good solution. It was the execution that failed more than the premise.
Nowadays, i just imagine that Byron has just finished smoking weed everytime i see him on screen 😂 His dialogue at times was like a space hippie 😂 Fortunately, season five picks up (big time) in the second half and ended the show on a high.
Your analysis is good but seems to overlook the heavy handed way the renegade telepaths were presented as just the smartest, nicest, most civilized victims ever. It was too incredible to be anything but annoying.
I read the Psi Corps series, and it was good, and laid out some intriguing aspects of humam psycics, but I kept wondering why human psycics seemed to be more trouble than Centari, Minbari, or the psycics of other races. It seemed like psycic ability had much more potential than what was shown in B5.
Yeah, the arc for Byron and his merry band of rogue telepaths certainly wasn’t the finest writing that we had come to expect. But, season 5 did have some occasional gems pop up, like View from the Gallery, which tells a story about the day in the life of a pair of station maintenance workers.
I like your take but I think if you are paying attention then we quickly had issues . 1) Humans are not the only telepaths. While they did have issues going on the Mimbari could have sent a couple of groups to help. The Centari don’t group all the telepaths in one group but spread them out and so finding some to help should have been on the table. And the Centari telepaths are good with reading possible future so yeah why were they not trying to do this (and I mean EVERYONE should have tried). Also, they all knew telepaths exist so how much info was he going to get before codes change security locked down and fleets start moving to remove the threat. This is what we expect not just upset diplomats- a full blown military response! 2) G’kar. As the last member of the original ruling council he was at the beginning trying to find telepaths. Even if the Narn had none he literally knew why they had none and how it hurt his people. Info that the telepaths should have notes and made plans or set expectations with that as part of them. At the least, G’kar himself should have tried to warn them where this was leading. Even if just to be moral about it. 3) Ironheart. He is a literal telepathic GAWD and while he may not have cared about much of the first one issues, the PsiCorp vs the rebels he would have cared about. At the lest again if the telepaths were trying to get him to talk to them or come back that would have been a good call. At the least, the viewer could have expected his return (what with them brining his name up multiple times in the first two seasons - yeah) I. This one place he cares about. His being missing feels like a lost opportunity. (He does not have to show up but he is the Holy Spirit to Bryan’s Paul the apostle) . Losing everything even the gift of telekinesis from that episode hurt. 4) Human female telepath in the Minbari . We literally saw her and there was no reason she does not come back with what she knows. She may not be as stable as others but she knows how a gestalt telepathy group works because that was supposedly how the Minbari did it. Brining her back would have given that outside perspective and made up to some extent for the loosing other elements of the arc. She would be someone that already can sniff out what bad things people want and being a counter to Bryon makes a more interesting narrative. But the worst thing was: 5) The telepaths were evil and stupid. Where there was a bit of moral issues before when they go into backstabbing mode there was only one way it was going to end - in Blood. The Galaxy kicked out the Volons a more powerful telepathic biotechnology species so they really expected this to play out with them getting a planet ? The species had not asked for this but they attacked those that did nothing removing all care for them in a strike. Heck I was shocked that they got off the station alive because they should’ve made it off except for Lydia. There would have been nothing but help for Psi Corp in the war. And this was basically logical in result. Unlike most of the series it felt tacked on and half thought out and a poor end for the series.
I don't remember most of season 5, since it was so boring I bailed on it fairly quickly. So I barely recall anything about the telepath colony. And now I have to wonder why the telepaths didn't set up a secret colony on Epsilon 3. It was a whole planet mostly empty with massive amounts of underground spaces that could be used to house a few dozen people. The Great Machine would have been able to protect them from the Psi-Corps.
So, one thing should be taken into context, especially now we can easily discover this information from various interviews. JMS intended for ALL the major plots to end in Season 5. Everything: Babylon 5s attack on the Sol System to free Earth from President Clark’s tyranny, the Shadow War, the Telepath Colony, the Minibari Civil War, the introduction of the Drahk, and more. However, he was told that the show would end in Season 4 abruptly at the beginning of the Season’s production, and by the time the decision was reversed, it was too late, the Shadow War and ending of President Clark and the establishment of The Alliance had to go according to the with the planning of the series ending with Season 4. This is why Season 4s last episode includes showing us the future and hinting at the Telepath conflict, JMS was fishing for another Season. In the original 5 Season plan, Byron and the Telepath Colony would have probably been introduced during mid-late Season 4 and would have been used by Babylon 5 and allies in the Shadow War. This likely would have leant far more creditability to the whole “we were weapons, give us a planet NOW” argument, but I do agree they should have asked before spying. Basically, JMS wanted to resolve all the things he had been hinting at since Season 1, resolved in Season 4 what he could when told it was all he was getting very suddenly, and when he tried to resolve everything else in the Season 5 he was finally granted…it kinda didn’t work because the sequence of intended events wasn’t there to support it. Sadly.
Even still, JMS could have solved that entire issue by making all of Season 5 have "The Telepath War" as the major plotline, over the space of maybe 15-20 episodes, before finally wrapping everything up in the last couple of shows. But instead, he tried to rush/force the storyline, which has never worked, (especially in Sci-Fi, see: BSG Season 4), and never will.
Claudia Christian said in an interview that she just wasn't contacted for appearing in season 5. She didn't abruptly leave after season 4. Sadly season 5 was a dogshit sandwich, and was on par with the B5 movies in quality.
From what I can put together, there was some kind of deadline that was fixed (due to producers of the actor's guild or whatever), and she didn't show up or hand in the signed papers in time for that deadline. Why she didn't, what led up to that, what happened afterwards, depends on who you ask (JMS, Christian, Boxleitner all have somewhat different views)
Perhaps the reason people on the show acted like he was so great and pure despite being an abrasive jerk was him using his powers to subtly manipulate the emotions of those he interacted with.
Yeah Byron was terribly portayed. The problem with Byron was that there was nothing for the audience to sympathize with. Not to mention the fact that you have him going up against the man who got up in a Vorlon's face and LIVED. Who went to Za'ha'dum, died and came back. Who flipped the bird to the Shadows AND the Vorlons at the SAME TIME... Who's mentor was the OLDEST sentient being in the universe... You have this messianic character and you give him a p12 with a chip on his shoulder as his antagonist? It was only a matter of time before Sheridan got tired of playing games and rolled over him like a freight train.
I’ve never really bought the idea that all of season 5’s woes were because of the accelerated pace. JMS has said that had things gone according to plan, season 4 would have ended with Intersections in Real Time. So, realistically, we only lost four or five episodes, at least a couple of which would have been Clarke’s ongoing efforts to destabilize B5 through indirect means (Which were tedious) and maybe one standalone episode. I think a *lot* of the problem was that JMS was dealing with the switch to a new network and a shorter production schedule (1 day less per episode), gearing up to start a new show, making three TV movies, and so forth. I feel like a lot of the problem comes from him being overextended. And I also feel like, as you said, getting Crusade made him decide to just push all that stuff out into the next series. So what I think the problem *really* is (I mean on top of the hyperextended JMS stuff) is that we got all the Byron crap *instead of* the Telepath War. Because he no longer needed to wrap it up in B5, *and* had to find something to fill up all that space. So it went from being the resolution of a long and interesting plot thread to a seven-episode “Coming attractions.” That’s my hunch anyway
I’d add that all his notes for season 5 were destroyed when his hotel room was cleaned out shortly before they started filming and had to start writing again from scratch and the only plot he could clearly remember and thus he spent way too much time on the story
I hated Byron the moment I saw him, he looked and acted like a cult leader. There were so many ways they could have solved this issue. I have read so many B5 fanfics that lays out solutions to this issue. As for season 5, there are some excellent episodes, but also some bad ones.
"Most hated?" Nah. That would be Mr. Morden for most of the audience. If you meant "hated character that was supposed to be liked," then it might be accurate.
Disagree. You can have the most vile villain still be like by the audience because they are so vile, like Mr. Morden. Every sence you look forward to with behind the shadow plotting and mystery. Or mr. Bester on how he get underneath everyone skin without his telepathy. Bryan, every scene with him, you know is going to be a drag. I'm not ashamed that when I rewatch the show, I never skip Mr. Morden and Bester but I can skip the telepathy arc with Bryan
Totally agree with this analysis. I absolutely loved (most of) B5, but JMS has an issue with his writing where it often crosses over into the pretentious, but then veers back into greatness. I think he did way more good than bad, though. When the casting was great, it was REALLY great. The characters of G'Kar, Mollari and Vir were perfectly played by those actors, and they carried the show on their backs for me. But there was also a lot of clunkiness, stiff acting, and not great casting choices. I don't want to be mean and get too detailed here, but I will say Byron is not the only British character I wanted off the show. I was so happy when the Byron story got wrapped up, and didn't even care how it was done. It was supposed to be tragic and I guess noble, but it was just empty and happily forgotten. The rest of the season was great, though. I swear I am not a hater in disguise. I genuinely ultimately love the show, and the incredible ambition of it's long form storytelling. I just can't ignore the issues either.
JMS often writes dialogue that's a bit strange and unnatural. But when he finds actors who can make it convincing (like Londo and G'Kar) - its fantastic!
The very first time I saw the first episode with the telepaths talking about a telepath homeworld, I wondered why they didn't just ask for one of the smaller Markab colony worlds. The Markab weren't around anymore, and nobody ever mentioned any of the other races taking them over.
8 місяців тому
Yeah the only mention of them was that the other races looted the Markab worlds
Watch the main war and the earth war was over. I kind of was done with the show. B5 always struggled with it's filler episodes a lot of them weren't great. B5s main story arc carried the show hard. Once it was done. There was no point left to the show overall.
Well, as every B5 fan knows (including the makers of this video), Joe S. was forced to accelerate the story telling in Season 4 because there was very little chance of a season 5. When miraculously, at the last minute, the show was granted a 5th season, most of the 5th season story arc had already been told. So, Joe had to scramble to come up with enough story material to fill season 5, and it suffered accordingly.
It flopped because we didn't see him and his people fight on the frontlines, if we saw him fight along sherigan and co against the shadows/vorlons, Clark dictatorship and Psycorp we would have had a inbuilt sympathy for him. Plus if he was less of a cult.
As you mentioned the main problem was the show almost being cancelled, it messed up the last two sessions. A lot was rushed or cut short in S4 & S5, the flow of the show was hit hard. They where trying to do a more hard SIFI take on telepathy, in books it's easier than film to show groups of people who dont need to talk. Kind of hit me that Walter Koenig set a high bar, like Nimoy in Trek. I compare all new Vulcans in Trek to Spock & all new telepath's in B5 to Koenig.
I agree with most of the points, save Sheridan's. Sheridan assigned Lochley to resolve the situation, intending to train and teach her, which explains his inaction. And yes, Byron deserved a cage in a zoo, not martyrdom.
What didn't make any sense to me was, the telepaths wanted their own world and just a few season ago the markab died out making their world move in ready but for some reason Sheridan forgets all about that.
I think this hits the nail right on the head as to why this plotline just didn't work. Overall season 5 feels like a ridiculous overlong epilogue to the most important storylines. It can't help but be a big letdown after the Shadow war and Human civil war.
It seems especially slow after the breakneck speed of events in season 4. If they’d kept up the pace a bit I think it would have helped contrast with the final few episodes when we say farewell to all the characters.
I agree wholeheartedly. The 5th season was insufferable especially when these telepaths are involved. The ISA plotlines are mostly ok but Byron always rubbed me the wrong way.
Minbar had no problem taking in the Asian girl when her latent telepathy emerged in Season 1. A more important question was, with all that open space out there, why could no one allow them to settle on some planet where they could live alone in seclusion like the freaky hippies they were? Nobody could spare a few acres in the woods? Telepaths are only subjugated on Earth so anyone else’s space away from Psy Corps jurisdiction would have been fine.
They kind of want you to forget that season 1 episode - it raises the question of why all rogue telepaths dont go to Minbar. I feel like Earth has jurisdiction over all humans - so they’d need some kind of official sanction/protection by the alliance to set up their own colony world - otherwise Psicorp just shows up and arrests them.
@@Phintasmo But you’re having to work out a reason because Joe didn’t have a good one. And if you’re going to expect people to forget small details, B5 is not show on which to do it.
It got cut in season four when JMS truncated the story arc to finish things out. I'm fairly certain if season five had been confirmed going into season four JMS would have had an arc dealing with telepaths during the Shadow War, most likely recruited from the Underground Railroad (Susan got Franklin's contacts at the end of season three for just that reason).
It didn't help that Season 4 felt like all the story arcs were already over. I didn't feel very invested in Byron's story because he was tacked on to a story that was already over: the Shadows and Vorlons were gone, the Civil War was over and Babylon 5 won, new agreements put all the characters in new positions, it honestly felt like the last episode of Season 4 was the finale the show deserved. Season 5 was just an unnecessary victory lap that also unnecessarily tied in some additional setup for things previously mentioned by the series.
I think having a cult vibe was the idea. But I believe that was the idea. JMS had a tendency to play with the concept of actions vs your gut. Compare Kosh and Morden. Morden was very pleasant and offered to help people, yet you knew he was the bad guy. Kosh did some very suspect things, but you never doubted he was a good guy. I 100 percent agree the certainty cancelation at the end of season 4 caused the rush nature of the second half of season 4 (after into the fire). Then, when it got picked up for season 5 all these loose ends were just kind of picked up and mashed together; and it shows.
JMS really downplays it in a lot of interviews, but to me its obvious that he blew through a lot of his best material in season 4 and had to awkwardly modify what he had left.
Came across like a bunch of hippies in a commune, doing nothing but whine constantly about how their way of life is better than everyone else's. All while living off of the charity of others.
the biggest problem with byron is that once he finds out the truth about the telepaths he becomes stupid. One he plans is to black mail the alliance. A much better way to do it would be to ask for help and offer to aid or to serve with conditions that they can control their own fate. Someone would seek to gain an advantage but the problem is that instead its pushed to the front as a do this or we screw you over. Plus byrons just a jerk, instead of hippy commune it should have been more like a refugee camp. Less cult like worship and more him trying to keep everyone feed and everyone healthy. Plus constantly trying to find a planet to colonize have him meeting with ambassadors and negotiating to offer to mine a planet or grow crops for another government in exchange for them giving them the planet. Or maybe even trying to get the old markab homeworld -its empty now that they are all dead.
Yes! His character shifts far too abruptly and things escalate implausibly quickly. If you start with blackmail and it doesnt work where do you have left to go?
First time I have seen you in my thread, and this actually was interesting. I always found Crusade sn odd follow up to the original series with all the buildup for what sermed like a Martian and telepath points that it felt like were coming. With the new movie recently done, I have wondered if JMS might return to other open plots. Time will tell but thanks for this
Byron was indeed "off" as a character, and fully agree that his group was quite cult-y. Robin Atkin Downes is a prolific voice actor in animation and video games. After beating Fallout New Vegas I had a good chuckle when I was watching the credits where he's listed as: Robin Atkin "Don't Call him Byron" Downes 😀
Honestly I think if they wanted to deal with this they could have. Once they had an issue on the station shared instead of just simply given them a ship from ISA Funds. And send them on their merry way. They could have Gone multiple places in the alliance, or asked a race like the Minbari Two settlements somewhere inside Minbari federation space On an isolated or remote island or planet somewhere where they could live out their lives as they sell fit. For that matter, why didn't they go to another alien? Ray such as the narn and ask for sanctuary. The norm would have gladly given them sanctuary in return for Genetic material. I think the messionic martyrdom was kind of played out with Sheridan by the time they got to Byron. It seemed a little bit tright and played out
Yeah, you'd think Sheridan would try something at the point where further confrontation with Psicorp appeared inevitable. "We can't protect you, but we can send you on your way with a colony ship - don't tell us where you're going."
The telepath story changed several time. There was one flashback in the crusade tv series where John Mathesons character has a flashback to his phycore days, he was left guarding a rogue telepath, who ultimatley convinced him to free her, she then warned him to leave and called in an airstrike on the hidden phycore base, which presumably was the end to telepath war or part of it. They wanted patricia tallman to come back and film that scene, though were unable to come to an agreement, or she was just unavailable. So the part the part of the prisoner was taken by a different character. Tallman herself was brought back to the series after Andrea Thompson who played Talia Winters left the show. The arc of Lyta Alexander being enhanced by the vorlons was done to cover what would've been covered by the Talia Winters character who's abilities had been enhanced by her lover iron heart. Even though the Talia Winters character was brainwashed by the phsycore, the plot where kosh the vorlon ambassador took a copy of her mind would've been used to restore Talia Winters back to normal.
Byron needed charm. He didn't give off cult vibes to me just snobbery. Cult leaders are supposed to be magnetic they say weird stuff but something about them makes it seem compelling makes you want to help them. Big miss with the actor. He didn't have it. Add to it our smart characters being dumb it's a recipe for failure. Great video here.
Having just rewatched all of Babylon 5, I can tell you it didn't work because Byron was _Lord_ Byron. He was overly serious and self-satisfied all the time. There was no humor in this man.
I actually love this story line and the popular reaction to it because it illustrates how these things happen in the real world so well. The revolutionary/liberation leaders are never perfect and likable. The problems staring world leaders in the face for months and years aren't always at the top of their priority lists, often to their detriment. And most of all, nobody really knows what they're doing. It's all just made up as we go along. Sometimes we don't know what to do and we wait until we're forced to act. Those who have faced life long oppression often act in ways that seem irrational to those who haven't been through the same treatment. Biases, both conscious and unconscious, color all our actions and thoughts so that even good people can bring about terrible things through inaction or ignorance. I don't know how intentional all of that was on the part of JMS, but whether he meant to or not it's a great object lesson.
Byron rubbed me wrong because he had such a cult leader vibe that was incredibly intense. His adherents also had a hard dose of group think as well. It just pushed EVERY creep nerve I have. Byron sat there apparently feeding off B5 charity instead of having his people out looking for the resources and planet to move to.
That was one of the few times I supported Psi Corps.
I didn't think about the impact of wrapping up the civil war story early. Once I started thinking about it, I really could see Byron as written working much better if Sheridan and the station were still caught up in the much larger ongoing and gradually escalating war. Creepy cult leader Byron just doesn't work without that larger ongoing pressure distorting everyone's views until it is too late. With the war, the entire telepath story and its characters needed a complete rethink.
Also, you don't cast a guy who looks like a hack Vegas magician as a telepath everyone is supposed to take seriously.
@@Lonovavir Good thing Byron wasn't fighting The Shadows. Just imagine the smug competition between him and Morden.
I alsways hated him
You pretty much nailed it when you mentioned how Byron was an insufferable cult leader. I also did not like how they just abruptly decided we're going to go from fighting for a new world to killing ourselves. That whole episode seemed forced and illogical.
The switch in Byron's goals upends the whole thing.
There was probably a way to get their more naturally, but he literally changes overnight.
@@Phintasmo To be fair, the treatment of telepaths in S5 was rather appaling. Lyta was completely right - after all she'd done for them and suffered through, they just abandon her when she falls on hard times! And it applies to Ts in general. I mean, we've dealt with the fascist regime that was in cahoots with cosmic horrors and nearly destroyed Earth, and we're now moving into the better, more enlightened era of freedom and cooperation. But the Psy Corps? Arguably the second most prominent symbol of that regime's evils (after the Night Watch)? Nah, we're keeping that; can't have those dangerous freaks running around snooping after our creepy fetishes and underhanded deals! Even though both Minbari and Centauri somehow manage without such a structure (I think), and maybe that's something we might culturally appropriate from them.
Come to think of it, Bester shaped up to be the main villain of S5 (What? "Drakhs"? Yeah, right.) He terrorized Lyta, he did all that horrible shit to Garibaldi, pushing him to drink again, he gloated about murdering Talya, and he came down on the (initally) peaceful commune of telepaths. And he got away scot free (Yes, I know he got his in the books, doesn't count)! That is some major bullshit.
@@PhintasmoSo much of the Telepath plot was wasted potential. When you have people who can read thoughts and alter perceptions and memories, you have a major story engine. Byron changing goals could easily be handled with a little jiggery pokery -he has his will subtly eroded by radicals, he was a psi corps plant, he became an mouthpiece of the colony as a Hivemind and his sanity was shredded with too many voices, etc. The rest of the plot for S5 was much better than I'd expected, but the telepath plot dragged it down. Guess it was the biggest casualty of the final season.
The telepath plot was badly done. I kept expecting a reveal that psycorp had compromised Byron. As to psycorp not being dismantled and minbari etc dealing better with Ts I think a big reason for that was the fact human Ts did not occur naturally and gradually but due to the Vorlons interference. There was limited opportunity for gradual socialisation and integration and acceptance. It was kind of a moot point anyway as earlier episodes more than suggested that the genetically modified humans with such abilities would eventually be unable to sustain their numbers and would gradually lose the ability to produce descendants who shared those abilities. So a telepath colony would after a few generations just be a colony of mundanes.
@@SG-1-GRC Weren't all telepaths the product of Vorlons' interference?
He's literally one of those charismatic cult leaders that are just assholes.
The Rogue Telepaths actually made Psycorps look like the good guys.
Exactly. This was a case where the characters - the rogue telepaths - were designated as good but did nothing to earn it.
It helps we had a long running Psycop character who we knew was a bastard, but never pretended otherwise.
They were too Charlie Mansonesque to be likeable for me.
I have always said season six should have been the telepath war, with a final season 7 being the Drakh war that then lead into Crusade on a high. I think part of why Crusade failed - studio interference aside - was because of the damage done by Byron's arc. B5 had just spent 5 years building up to the climatic confrontation with the Shadows, culminating in a war in heaven between the Shadows and the Vorlons, if it was to continue past that point it needed to start building up to towards the next big confrontation and the Telepath and Drakh wars are two major events in the lore.
JMS was holding the Telepath War in reserve for a motion picture with a modest budget of $30 to $35 million. This is why that event is carved out of the timeline with Crusade picking up after it is over. He thought it would be a great send off for B5 and would allow the cast to get a proper paycheck. Of course, it never happened and we are all left with holes in our minds.
Byron's death was the catalyst propelling Lyta toward this conflict and the cause of her eventual death. A Call to Arms starts on the five-year anniversary of the Interstellar Alliance and notes the deaths on both sides in the recent telepath conflict, especially....
The Drakh "war" was seen in a Call to Arms, although Drakh incursion or siege is a more proper description. After that brazen assault, they went back to their usual routine of hiding in the shadows and continued to be a problem until 2278, when the Drakh Leader was hilariously killed by Michael Garibaldi after the rescue of David Sheridan.
Season 5 could be an example of the extended arc being too rigid.
Without the Earth civil war to anchor the first half they needed something new and impactful to take its place (Telepath War would have done it - or move up the Drakh stuff earlier and provide more resolution later.)
Instead it feels like they beefed up something that was intended to be a side story.
Its a shame Crusade didnt last as we would almost certainly have got all the things you mentioned in some form or another.
That's the problem, the Drakh war wasn't seen in _Call to Arms,_ they had already lost the war by this point, because remember it's a five year time jump. All it showed was a spiteful attack on Earth to set up Crusade. We needed to see a war that was a very real threat to the nascent Alliance on screen, not hear references to it in a TV movie pilot for a new show.
@@saladinbob The spiteful attack out of left field was the only direct conflict with the Drakh. There was no actual war, just the single assault. They had been hiding on Centauri Prime with their very patient and very silly plan to get back at Sheridan in 17 years and then they suddenly decided instead to destroy Earth on the fifth anniversary of the IA. After the ass kicking they seemed to go back back into hiding except for a few random encounters. There was no prolonged conflict during the intervening 5 years. The Drakh had managed to get the Shadow Cloud up and running and tested it in secret in preparation for a surprise attack. Earth would have had no idea they were coming had Galen not tipped off Sheridan and sent him on a quest in A Call to Arms. Once the cloud and much of the Drakh fleet were destroyed, they were no longer a match for the IA forces and the withdrew to Centauri Prime.
@@Phintasmo Crusade was getting ready to go down some rabbit holes. The unfilmed scripts were really good. The telepath war, part 2 would have started gearing up.
The entire telepath arc always seemed off to me from the time Lyta got cut loose after the Shadow war. Up until then, Sheridan always backed his people & took care of them. Then Lyta basically wins the war for him and he....doesn't even pay her rent. Much less employ her as he well could have done as a very useful ally. That didn't fit the character he had been established as. Then yes, Byron was a cult leader and rather insufferable for it, while his telepaths were creepy cyphers we were supposed to care about, but they never got humanized/personalized enough to make the connection. It also never made sense to me that there wasn't even a single planet in the entire known universe that they could have been offered - if for no other reason that the offering government wanted them as extremely strong allies (especially useful ones in the newly mostly-commercial relations after the previous Shadow-inspired-warring the universe had been).
THIS.
I think if they had asked for it first, there might have been offers. The problem was: They went straight to blackmail, showing up front they couldn't be trusted. Proving everyone's suspicion to be right. And the next issue is, they wanted everything haded to them, unwilling to make any concessions, and that's just not how things work. No matter how 'fair' it seems to them, they have to accept that they are indeed dangerous people and others are wary. By trying blackmail, they made themselves into the enemy.
What certainly didn't help things was the challenges of broadcast television. In the 90s, you didn't have your extras speak or you'd have to pay them more. So you get a lot of people standing around nodding as the principle actors monologue to them. In Byron's case, you ended up with a room full of people staring at him wistfully without saying a word, and it just significantly ups the creep factor.
The Lyta character arc made no sense whatsoever.
She's the only known non-Vorlon to have been to the Vorlon homeworld.
She's obviously the strongest human telepath to anyone that can fog up a window.
She's literally the only reason Sheridan and Garibaldi survived the Earth Civil War. If she hadn't been able to read Garibaldi's mind and project his memories Garibaldi would have been executed and Sheridan would not have been rescued. Good chance he gets executed as well. Decent chance the Earth Civil War ends in a stalemate or drags out and severely weakens the Alliance.
Screw political concerns between the newly founded Interstellar Alliance and the Earth Alliance. Lyta should have been part of the inner circle from the start. Her being forced back into the Psi Corps' fold was an absurd plot point. It felt like JMS had an endgame in mind, but went about reaching it in the worst way possible.
@@thomasmeyer6943 EXACTLY!
I think you hit it with the "Cult Leader" vibe, and noting he had to stretch the Byron plot with rewrites because Claudia was off the show.
This telepath arc (JMS has written) was only supposed to be about three or four episodes. 1) Byron shows up. 2) Byron hangs out attracting Lyta/Ivanova 3) Byron gets laid and finds out about Vorlon manipulation. 4) Byron goes aggro and gets taken out by Psi Corp.
Stretching that from about 4 episodes to half a season just hurt.
Budget cuts, shooting schedule cuts and the contract snafu with Claudia running long into pre-production meat JMS was too overloaded to really refine the stretched out story.
They could have also started earlier and had them help out against the Shadows.
@@Phintasmo Oh, HEY-ELL no!
That would mean we've have had to put up with Byron for two seasons!
Season 5 was a bit of a letdown in some ways. The studio politics really messed with the story pacing through the whole series. But this was just a clumsy mess. I was rooting for PsiCorps almost from the time Byron walked on stage. We were lucky to get the quality of B5 we got.
There's an apocryphal story about a really badly acted stage production of the Diary of Anne Frank - during the climax someone in the audience shouted 'She's in the attic!'
@@Phintasmo Was Anne Frank portrayed like Lisa Simpson?
You cannot help but feel sorry for Lochley because she correctly assesses the situations thrown at her and knows how she wants to run things but is overruled by her ex-husband and the old crew at almost every turn.
I really empathized with Lochley's frustration with Sheridan and the whole situation.
Strangely, she comes out the best from the whole saga. By the end we've been given a really good picture of her decision making process - also she shines in contrast to the incompetence of everyone else.
I just checked out one of your podcasts (Day of the Dead) - its a great listen!
You guys know this stuff inside out. And kudos for working your way through the ENTIRE series!
@@Phintasmo The movies at least show how chill Lochley's command is! Thanks for checking out our stuff and we're keen to see what B5 videos you have coming up, perhaps one about Lochley being a better character than people give her credit for! Upon a re-watch it's pretty clear that she's just so god damn funny.
@@yumyumpodcast I think a problem is with her being all high and mighty that she stayed on the side of Clark. The scene with that little speech she gives Garibaldi just rubs the wrong way and makes little sense in context with what had happened. Despite that, the scene almost literally ends with the joke: "And then everybody clapped". I really think that without that scene, her overall perception would have been higher.
There is probably more to it, but it has been too long since I watched the show. I really should fix that soon ^^
@@MarijnvdSterre We talk about the problems of that scene often on the podcast! Honestly think her rationale works well as a justification people who were on the wrong side would use and it makes sense that Lochley believes it. The great thing about that speech is it gives us an insight into a mentality of this character and puts into motion an arc in which we we see over the course of the season her ideals get challenged in many ways and eventually she flips her stance on a personal level with her not being able to stay out of what is happening with Garibaldi and his relapse. All of this is majorly undercut by the fact the crowd claps and thus the show itself seemingly sides with her very clearly skewed point of view.
@@yumyumpodcast I agree completely. The problem isn't with her rational itself. It does make sense for her.
And you make a good point about the show "feeling" like it wants us to side with her (at least partly). And since the viewers are not, it really gets the hackles up. That latches on Lochley and not the scene itself or the show.
The scene might have worked perfectly fine if there had been no clapping, but some head shaking.
Byron's problem with Psi-Corps could've been more easily dealt with if he had non-human telepaths among his group. It would've elevated them to I.S.A. jurisdiction solely. That he didn't have alien telepaths among his group I think is telling. Just as is his past as a Psi-Cop. Whether Byron was intending to or not, I think with his high P-rating, he was subtly manipulating everyone in his group into conformity (given that he would only lose control when his people started showing strong emotions). The show mentions alien minds being very difficult on a human telepath but that should not have been an issue if Byron wasn't trying to use his abilities to control them. Thus, cult leader. His cause was admirable given that telepaths were indeed created for use as weapons and not the result of natural evolution. And while his reaction to finding this out seemed against his character, at the same I'm not exactly sure how I would act finding out my entire existence and everything I had been made to believe and believe in was a lie either.
Basically his characterization and how he's talked about by others; that disconnect, is what I think we were supposed to have been paying attention to. Even if Byron's not trying to be, to modify an expression: you can take the Psi-Cop out of the Corps but you can't take the Corps out of the Psi-Cop. He was trained to believe himself superior to not only normals but superior to other telepaths as well. A wonderful recipe for political leadership...
Yeah, you can tell by all of his groupies dressing like him, having the same long hair and lacking any sort of independent personality. And remember how he first interacted with Lyta? By trying to guilt-trip her with that entire "sit down" farce. He was a friggin cult leader, that's how they gain control of their victims.
The 'sit down' bit was classic negging! He was such a jerk.
As for non-human telepaths, I'm glad they kept that separate. We never know a great deal about how the other species govern their teeps and drawing attention to it muddles and confuses the story they are trying to tell with the Psicorp.
One of the few times it comes up is in that season 1 episode where the latent telepath girl ends up going off to live with the Minbari.
The audience really has to ignore that this happened, because it raises the question of why all the human rogue telepaths don't do this, or why Earth isn't taking issue with Alien governments harboring fugitives.
@@Phintasmothe reason non human telepathy weren't part of the group is because other cultures have no problem accepting non human telepaths into their society, with humans, its either PsiCorps or nothing. Byron knows better than most how indoctrination and controlling the PsyCorps can be. What he was trying to do was bring structure and organization to the rogue telepaths so they could achieve their aims of striking out on their own and build a future for themselves and provide a stable and sustainable alternative to the PsyCorps. In addition, he was fed up with how so called normal people always seem to.beg and plead for telepaths to help solve their problems, fight their wars, but the very minute telepaths ask for help from normal people, suddenly 'there's nothing we can do'. Byron tried appealing to their good nature, tried making a compassionate plea to try to get their help from their good will, and when they kept saying 'there's nothing we can do', that's when they had to resort to forcing the issue. And they weren't asking for much, just an uninhabited world for rogue telepaths to settle on, a safe haven, and Sheridan acts like they're asking for the first born child of every council member.
@@Phintasmo Because it is the Minbari, I don't think earth would be starting anything with them again lol. But you point overall is right
None of the other races treated their telepaths anywhere near as badly as Psi Corps, so there was no (strong enough) desire for any of them to go into voluntary exile...
As for the "created as a weapon" thing, I'm pretty sure it's just as Star Trek TNG's "The Hunted" simply an analogy to how the USA treated their Vietnam war veterans. In both cases, it's blatant, no subtlety whatsoever, which is supposed to give the "created as weapons, then neglected and discarded" party some big bonus points, which were in this case immediately squandered with Byron's "insufferable cult leader" character...
(it's one of the few cases where I significantly prefer Star Trek's take on a subject, even though they didn't do it anywhere near as well as one could have done, either)
I’ve thought for nearly 30 years I was the only one that hated Byron. The whole first half of season 5 was so grating. It’s nice to know I’m not all alone in the night.
Exactly. When he went up in flames in his last episode I breathed a sigh of relief.
@@richardthomas5362 I remember actually saying out loud "Oh thank the great maker he is dead" when it happened and before that I was internally thinking "just die already"
I mean FFS they made him so obnoxious and annoying that I was rooting for Bester! A god damn telepath SS space nazi!
@@richardthomas5362 I only wish I had lit the flame.
Definitely not alone. I was active in forums such as USENET, CompuServe and CiX when B5 was first airing, and absolutely everybody HATED Byron without any exceptions.
@@richardthomas5362 they, especially Byron, didn't deserve such an easy way out.
Solid analysis. Byron, for all his fault, mainly being annoying, still had a charisma to him. He kind of steals all the scenes he is involved in, even though one might want him not to. The telepath colony arc has a good climax to it as well, and even though S5 isn't as strong as the rest of B5, I don't hate this arc taking the spotlight for the first half.
The actor is good and he does steal every scene he is in.
It's a shame that he mainly interacts with Lyta and has no strong connection to any of the other main characters. (Too bad Ivanova wasn't around anymore.)
Most people tuned in for the continuing adventures of the established cast but it feels like it becomes the Byron show at times.
I think a lot of people missed the point about the “rogue telepaths”, and Byron in particular. They were, in so many ways, a reflection of the cultural trauma resulting from the Branch Davidians in Waco, TX. Byron in particular is an excellent - if annoying - representation of how cult leaders so often go awry - high on a combination of power and drunk on the adulation of their followers.
I never thought of him as a character to like.
True but it's so damned overdone.
And Pedowood today doesn't have a single, original idea to explore anymore. Most of it is just atheist "shariah" in the form of nihilistic demoralization.
It's not about subtle propaganda hiding in entertainment, but full on propaganda with only a dash of entertainment.
People seem to forget that Waco and Ruby Ridge were very fresh in the American psyche. I too think that JMS coding Byron as a cult leader was VERY MUCH intended.
If Sheridan had said, "You got 6 months of asylum to get it together and get out."
That's one of the key problems isn't it - on what basis could Sheridan let them stay but not seem like a doofus stumbling into disaster.
Maybe they could ratify G'Kar's declaration of principles - then the Telepaths show up and say "You've committed to protecting people who are oppressed by their governments - well we fit the bill!"
Totally agree, I absolutely hated the Byron character, it was totally different and out of place with the rest of the B5 universe, a case of PC / Preaching that went BADLY wrong.
The whole telepath colony made no sense.
Imagine Little House on the Prairie but everybody is a telepath.
"I sense a million minds that want to suck our blood."
Yeah...they're called mosquitoes.
And then George Lucas saw Byron and thought to himself -- that, THAT is what Vader looked and sounded like before the suit . 😂😅😢
The problem for me was that the final ep. of season 4 already gave away that the colony was a failure. That ruined any tension.
How can you not love Alfred Bester 🤔?
How can you not love to hate Alfred Bester, is more accurate lol. You can tell Chekov really loved playing a smarmy evil character like him.
He's the reason I tend to do an invisible hat tip rather than wave to people.
@@mikepatton8691 Agreed, he is evil, but an smarmy, charming and oddly polite evil
Koenig is extremely good in such a role, god i miss to hate Bester
The biggest problem was the underground railroad story arc essentially went away in season four along with telepaths being created by the Vorlons as a counter to the Shadows.. In season 4 we had bit of Lyta. But that mostly revolved around the command staff cutting her loose at the end of the Shadow war. Then we got telepath virus arc, that while reinforcing Psi-Corp bad, did not really show us any corresponding telepaths good (outside Lyta). That meant Byron and the colony showed up without much of the usual setup that B5 did so well during the first four seasons.
I remain convinced that had JMS gone into season 4 knowing season 5 was coming he would have done much more setup.
Possibly focused on one more telepaths who aided against the Shadows (Early into to Byron). At the end of season 3 Ivanova got contacts for the underground railroad from Dr Franklin so we might have got a mini arc about using the railroad to recruit telepaths. Some of those telepaths might have popped up again throughout the season. Do more setting up of Sheridan’s blind spot towards telepaths, expanding on not just Lyta being blown off but a lot of telepaths being left out in the cold after the Shadow war.
That could have done a much better job leading into season 5’s colony arc and making the stakes more personnel. But alas we will never know. JMS has conferred that the Shadow arc would have lasted 3-4 more episodes if he’d had the time but he’s never really said how he would have fleshed out those episodes. I think more emphasis on telepaths would have been a key subplot.
I could not ever hate my favourite medic.
He’s in soo many video games!
B5 fans are among the only people who strongly link him to a live action role.
@@Phintasmo Like David Herman and OG MadTV fans.
But Robert Atkin Downes(Byron) has voiced everything from the nemesis orcs in Shadow of Mordor/War, to Brynjolf the Theives Guild douche in Skyrim... I just realized Claudia Christensen was also in Skyrim, lol.
@@Phintasmo thanks for the essay by the way. I was way to young to appreciate b5 when it was running. Its time to bench it again.
As for Robert Atkin Dowes he is a giga chad when it comes to his roles expecially his voices,
Tf2 has an exelent cast and trough that i became aware of his work.
I was so ready to see the telepath war in S5. Thank you for sharing!
You are very welcome!
I still remember how it slowly dawned on me as season 5 progressed that they probably werent going to deliver the Telepath War.
Biggest missing chapter in the whole lore!
@@PhintasmoNope. Just a slow build up.
The telepath war is actually composed of two parts:
Lyta’s War (the destruction of the Psy Corps)
Bester’s Return (an armed insurrection against Earthgov by rogue factions of the former Psy Corps).
By the time of Crusade, the first part had concluded and the unfilmed script Value Judgments (late Season 1) would have set the second into motion.
Neither went well for Bester as he found himself wanted as a war criminal after both of these events. He remained at large until finally captured by Michael Garibaldi in 2271.
Bester spent ten years in a Maximum Security prison until his death in 2281.
Garibaldi visited his grave and planted something in the Earth above his resting place - a wooden stake.
The weird "I was in an 80's Christian Rock Band you've never heard of" look didn't help.
Ha! Thats exactly the look!
Kelly Family...
first the main problem was that the show runners weren't expecting to get renewed for the last season and it why they rushed to get all the mains arc over with, this caused the problem of only having the b-plots to focus on, if Telepath Colony had been woven in with the normal arcs it would have come off much better, the interstellar Alliance would have needed the Telepaths for the war, and could have come built up the relationships slowly and more in depth, so the inevitable confrontation when the war ended would have been more impactful,
secondly the way byron was portrayed made him a very bad leader, he left the Psi core, but the Psi core never left him, he antagonized everyone who would be his ally, called normal people mundanes and acted like they were superior, which drove a wedge between then telepaths and normals, there very future depended on cooperation with the interstellar alliance and instead they blackmailed and alliterated everyone who would be willing to help and so on, byron came of as unsympathetic to the audience, more of as a antagonist we rooted to see fall, another problem was we never really addressed how poorly the main cast treated leela and drove her into the Telepath camp
true when you make Bester of all people look like the good guy, you know you stuffed up making a character the audience is meant to agree with on the ideals.
John Sheridan: "Honey? Can the human telepaths live on some weird outpost in Minbar space somewhere?
Delen: "Hmmm.. I don't know. It does make sense with the whole human/minbari souls thing, but I'd have to pull a lot of strings."
JS: "It would really piss off Bester."
D: "You always did know how to sweet talk me, John."
Roll credits!
I think they needed to be more animated, more practical. More human. They just.. stood there being creepy all the time.
Also, if you're looking for a place to stay, it seems likely that you'd want everyone else there to think you're good people. Helping them out occasionally even. They should have found a place outside of Earth jurisdiction immediately instead of staying right there, taunting the Psi-core to come and arrest them.
They would have been hunted down no matter where they went (even outside earth jurisdiction). As rogue minorities, their continued existence was unacceptable.
A state offering sanctuary would have been the only thing that could have saved them, but none did.
I have no idea why they didn't seek sanctuary with Minbar like that 10 year old from season 1.
One of the many, many reasons I hate Byron is that he’s completely superfluous. I mean, we’ve known Lyta for four years at this point. Do we need some newb showing up and teaching her how to be a rebel leader? And she just follows him around like a puppy dog? No! Lyta doesn’t need anyone to *teach* her how to lead, she’s already learned it through her years of experience on the show. She spent years running from the Psicorps. She made use of the Underground Railroad, and (probably) ran part of it at some point.
So the season takes this character that we know really well and like, and make her an understudy for some pretentious goofus, as though she’s got anything to learn. Now, if Byron was her lieutenant, I doubt anyone would have a problem with it. She says “Jump” and he doesn’t have to ask how high because he already knows ‘cuz he’s a telepath.
I mean, think about how cool that could have been: Lyta with her little clan of rogue teeps, all of them just instantly following her whims, intimidating security, stuff like that.
I wonder if Ivanova was supposed to be Byron's GF initially with her on the rebound from Marcus and her history with the corps.
@@jonathancurran5366She was, and it’s the only reason I’m happy about the contract mixups that caused her not to be in Season 5.
@@rukbat3 indeed Ivanova would have been waaaay out of his league. hell LytaxByron felt forced as hell to me.
I didn't mind the TELEPATH idea - but it was horribly layed out...
Not enough time.
A friend of mine used to call Byron's bunch the "telegoths". Says it all, really.
I always called them (part of) the Kelly Family...
Season 5 seems to be a result of JMS having to use too many of his "outs" because of actors leaving or having already left. Seems like the story just didn't turn out to be what it was intended to be.
It's a show-runner's nightmare that causes you to have to make changes on the fly that you were not originally wanting, and having to alter the story to fit the real-life circumstances.
It was very disappointing that Claudia Christian left after S4, and I'm sure--like other's have already mentioned--with the Ivanova character still in the show, the season plot arc could have been very different.
After all, as Claudia Christian has said, Ivanova was everyone's favorite Telepathic, Russian, Lesbian, Jew.
The double-wammy of losing a key cast member AND compensating for all the stuff moved to season 4.
well they thought season for was it butthen they got a season 5
Obnoxious...and his teeps were creepy... weird... ugh! I think your video nailed it. Excellent 👍
Thanks!
Yeah, they got the tone of the whole thing so wrong.
Big disconnect between what they were going for and what ended up on screen.
I could have done without Byron and wish they gave his story to Lyta which also would have fleshed out Zack.
That would've been awesome
Even as a teenager Byron annoyed the hell out of me. I couldn't have articulated what exactly it was at the time, but looking back with this in mind I think you nailed it.
I'm at a loss for words...mostly because I had COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN this. Ugh.
The most punchable face in SF goes up against the most loathesome semi-regular in the show and...suddenly Bester is the reincarnation of Randolph Scott.* Who WASN'T rooting for Bester at the end of this?
*Scott: see "Blazing Saddles".
I shall now cry in my coffee.
THANKS.
(OK, I guess I'll subscribe now. What IS this place. Ta.)
While it wasn't one of B5's best story lines it was at least tolerable except for that damn annoying song the Teeps were always singing.
🎶🎵“We will all come together in a better place…” 🎶🎵
I'm just rewatching S5 for the first in years and I can't believe they only sang it twice. Overall I thought the plotline had more good things going for it then I remembered, but it's definitely uneven as heck. And the first singing scene is atrocious.
the thing about telepaths in the B5 universe is they were only a stepping stone in evolution, in s4 final it's implied that humanity evolves into a race much like the Vorlons were , if anything Psi corps held the evolution back with there inhouse breeding program. for example when Lyta went all control mode at the end of s5 it was Sheridan a mere mundane shut her down simply because he had also walked with the Vorlons.
I liked Byron and felt sorry for his group 😢 And Lyta helped saved everyone and they want to kick her out of her room.
Thank you for confirming everything I thought about Byron...
I think it would have been interesting to see how this story would have gone if they hadn't "killed off" Talia. Every time I rewatch the show I find it a little jarring how just when she starts getting interesting, she's gone.
I think if we continued on with her until season 5 instead of Lyta, let her and Ivonova become lovers, And of course still had Claudia Christian in season 5, I feel like this arc would have played out in a very different way.
Talia and Ivanova could have been made to be at odds in the colony situation, putting pressure on their relationship and testing their commitments. The telepaths could have potentially been leaderless, a spot that Talia could have filled. This way even if the arc followed its same general path, It would have been more impactful since it was a character we've known for five seasons, especially if she dies like Byron. Yah know, instead of THAT guy.
It'll be curious to see where JMS goes with this new reboot!
That would have been fantastic!
Talia Winters was great and its a shame actress left.
Still, its amazing JMS was able to keep things going for five seasons despite all the departures.
That was never the plan but the original intent, before the "Claudia Situation" was that Susan would assume command of B5 and still be in mourning for Marcus and John Sheridan would temporarily conduct the business of the IA from there as well.
When Byron and his band of kooks arrive, Susan would immediately sympathize with them based on her long-standing hatred of the Psy Corps. Sheridan, trying to abide by the rules and play it safe in the fledgling Alliance, would refuse their request for sanctuary and Susan would override him, as was her right.
This would create a conflict since we've never seen Susan disobey Sheridan before. Their relationship has almost been like sister and brother over the years with John standing in for the big brother she lost in the war. Her going against him and endangering the Alliance could be seen as an act of betrayal by his closest and most loyal officer.
They flipped the dynamic in Season 5 and it never made much sense the way it played out in the show. Sheridan tells Lochley that station ops are her decision and immediately overrides that decision in the same episode.
Now, on to Byron. Susan immediately becomes enamored of this man with long hair and a British accent possibly out of guilt for spurning our favorite virginal Ranger and gets romantically involved with Discount Marcus. This, of course, turns out to be just another bad relationship choice for the long-suffering Ivanova who ultimately ends up as a middle-aged lonely General who never found true love.
Lyta would still be there but only as a super-powered acolyte of Byron. After his death, she would go off in search of revenge pretty much the way she does in Season 5.
Dramatically speaking, all these points make perfect sense and would have fueled much better drama but remove one block and the whole structure crumbles. I still don't know if the telepath arc would have been good overall with these changes, but it certainly would have been better.
@@sdfried4877 "Discount Marcus"...hilarious, but true description.
@@quantumsledgehammer1629
It’s true though. Ivanova would be drawn to him primarily because of his similarities to a certain flamboyant Ranger. Once she listened to him talk for a few hours, the relationship would be over.
@@sdfried4877 Agreed. Ivanova was not a character known for tolerating pretentiousness.
I hated Byron and his band because they were a bunch of selfish cowards who (after hiding under their beds during the shadow war) came out and Demanded everyone kiss their butts and give them what they perceived was owed to them from people who had no part in hurting them. Lyta and the telepaths who fought and died, just like 'mundanes' knew what Byron and his worms could never figure out. As the rangers say "We live for the one, we die for the one"
Even when B5 was attacked all they did was protect themselves and to hell with everyone else,
If these gutless bullies want reparations, go find the Vorlons
I always fast forward every scene with Byron when I do a series rewatch
This hit the nail on the head. I loved the show up until that point, and thought it had so many elements that other sci-fi shows lacked. Then Season 5 came along and Jumped the Shark, and I thought it was not even the same show anymore.
The rogue telepath plotline felt bolted on when they got a green light for season 5 having already filmed the story's final episode.
Sheridan is like a great sports star, who goes in to management and finds out it does not play the same way. The Peter principle comes to mind.
Maybe so.
Probably for the best that Captain Kirk never became Federation President.
My biggest problem with the telepath subplot was that we already knew from previous seasons, that the Minbari care for their telepaths, and treat them with great respect, and lay no obligations on them. In return, they might perform certain services for the people.. So, WHY DIDN'T the telepaths EMIGRATE TO MINBAR? They could have led free lives, away from Earth's laws-- just as they wanted!
Minbari are deeply religious to control their behavior, much like valcan from star trek. Whie warrior caste is overbearing, all them keep their matters with a share belief. Incorporating humans to the ranger was heated debate among them, likly only accepted due to coming shadow war. Human telepaths would have been much more difficult matter. With worker caste hold major of power in grey council, why built homes for those who wouldn't be part of Minbar?
Centuri seem to have some measures to use telepathy their stances and positions of power, like the emperors "herm" (there a more appropriate term, but they are telepathy for emperor to keep in touch of homeworld while away,)
Of course, the who galaxy is just recovering from shadow war, with many worlds destroyed. Even minbar just when through a civil war. So the last thing any world want is more refugees who can read minds, not without security measures in place when human telepathy wouldn't been accepting.
He was supposed to be a sympathetic character who wasn't sympathetic - he was arrogant, pretentious, narcissistic.
Well, he was Bester's protege...
I love B5 but the telepath ark seemed lazy and lyta deserved more.
Perhaps the problem with the Telepath arc on B5 was not so much how the characters of Byron and Sheridan were written, but simply that there was no good solution to it. And no Kirkian solution to this Kobayashi Maru type situation, either.
In that case there is no "Sheridan sitting on his ass", but simply him trying and failing to solve an unsolvable problem.
Equally, Byron and his telepaths becoming more radical would simply be par for the course: a natural reaction to being confronted with an unsolvable conundrum that you *have* to solve in order to surivive. Fight in stead of flight, with some desperate moves like the blackmail for their own planet being perhaps a bold final move born of sheer exasperation.
Perhaps more painful than how Babylon 5 handled this plotline, is how easily Crusade solved it: by simply adding a fourth option to the grim list of prison, Psi Corps or debilitating drugs. And that was allowing telepaths to roam free in society, as long as they did not abuse their powers, with the Psi Corps standing watch to apprehend any offenders, just like the regular police enforce regular laws. Clean and simple, putting the whole telepath crisis during Babylon 5's final season in a somewhat cringy perspective: if only they had thought of this solution sooner...
The psicorp was an imperfect solution that got entrenched and went rotten over the course of a couple of hundred years. I can believe it had reached a point where a major reckoning was needed to bring about a new status quo.
I agree that there was this inevitable sense it was going to end badly and there wasn’t a good solution. It was the execution that failed more than the premise.
Nowadays, i just imagine that Byron has just finished smoking weed everytime i see him on screen 😂
His dialogue at times was like a space hippie 😂
Fortunately, season five picks up (big time) in the second half and ended the show on a high.
"Flaming Telepaths" - bLUe oYsTeR cULt 🎸
Don’t Fear The Teepers! 😏
This is a very interesting hypothetical look at what could have gone wrong w/ a fifth season of B5. Luckily that never happened.
Lol!
Byron is basically Marcus Cole if you ordered him on Wish 😛
lol!
I’ve heard that was intentional - since they were originally setting him up for Ivanova.
Your analysis is good but seems to overlook the heavy handed way the renegade telepaths were presented as just the smartest, nicest, most civilized victims ever. It was too incredible to be anything but annoying.
This is a good channel. Seems under-appreciated.
I read the Psi Corps series, and it was good, and laid out some intriguing aspects of humam psycics, but I kept wondering why human psycics seemed to be more trouble than Centari, Minbari, or the psycics of other races. It seemed like psycic ability had much more potential than what was shown in B5.
psychic
Yeah, the arc for Byron and his merry band of rogue telepaths certainly wasn’t the finest writing that we had come to expect. But, season 5 did have some occasional gems pop up, like View from the Gallery, which tells a story about the day in the life of a pair of station maintenance workers.
That episode was awful. That short guy with the doofus accent was INSUFFERABLE
Pretty spot on here. When I do rewatches I just don't bother with season 5
The Day of the Dead story was great!
I like this channel. I put it up on twitter to get you more support. Good stuff man.
I like your take but I think if you are paying attention then we quickly had issues .
1) Humans are not the only telepaths. While they did have issues going on the Mimbari could have sent a couple of groups to help. The Centari don’t group all the telepaths in one group but spread them out and so finding some to help should have been on the table. And the Centari telepaths are good with reading possible future so yeah why were they not trying to do this (and I mean EVERYONE should have tried). Also, they all knew telepaths exist so how much info was he going to get before codes change security locked down and fleets start moving to remove the threat. This is what we expect not just upset diplomats- a full blown military response!
2) G’kar. As the last member of the original ruling council he was at the beginning trying to find telepaths. Even if the Narn had none he literally knew why they had none and how it hurt his people. Info that the telepaths should have notes and made plans or set expectations with that as part of them. At the least, G’kar himself should have tried to warn them where this was leading. Even if just to be moral about it.
3) Ironheart. He is a literal telepathic GAWD and while he may not have cared about much of the first one issues, the PsiCorp vs the rebels he would have cared about. At the lest again if the telepaths were trying to get him to talk to them or come back that would have been a good call. At the least, the viewer could have expected his return (what with them brining his name up multiple times in the first two seasons - yeah) I. This one place he cares about. His being missing feels like a lost opportunity. (He does not have to show up but he is the Holy Spirit to Bryan’s Paul the apostle) . Losing everything even the gift of telekinesis from that episode hurt.
4) Human female telepath in the Minbari . We literally saw her and there was no reason she does not come back with what she knows. She may not be as stable as others but she knows how a gestalt telepathy group works because that was supposedly how the Minbari did it. Brining her back would have given that outside perspective and made up to some extent for the loosing other elements of the arc. She would be someone that already can sniff out what bad things people want and being a counter to Bryon makes a more interesting narrative.
But the worst thing was:
5) The telepaths were evil and stupid. Where there was a bit of moral issues before when they go into backstabbing mode there was only one way it was going to end - in Blood. The Galaxy kicked out the Volons a more powerful telepathic biotechnology species so they really expected this to play out with them getting a planet ? The species had not asked for this but they attacked those that did nothing removing all care for them in a strike. Heck I was shocked that they got off the station alive because they should’ve made it off except for Lydia. There would have been nothing but help for Psi Corp in the war. And this was basically logical in result.
Unlike most of the series it felt tacked on and half thought out and a poor end for the series.
I have found the telepath colony all the space and distance they'll ever need, it's right through airlock 12.
The right wing solution to deal with all minorities
I don't remember most of season 5, since it was so boring I bailed on it fairly quickly. So I barely recall anything about the telepath colony. And now I have to wonder why the telepaths didn't set up a secret colony on Epsilon 3. It was a whole planet mostly empty with massive amounts of underground spaces that could be used to house a few dozen people. The Great Machine would have been able to protect them from the Psi-Corps.
So, one thing should be taken into context, especially now we can easily discover this information from various interviews.
JMS intended for ALL the major plots to end in Season 5. Everything: Babylon 5s attack on the Sol System to free Earth from President Clark’s tyranny, the Shadow War, the Telepath Colony, the Minibari Civil War, the introduction of the Drahk, and more. However, he was told that the show would end in Season 4 abruptly at the beginning of the Season’s production, and by the time the decision was reversed, it was too late, the Shadow War and ending of President Clark and the establishment of The Alliance had to go according to the with the planning of the series ending with Season 4. This is why Season 4s last episode includes showing us the future and hinting at the Telepath conflict, JMS was fishing for another Season.
In the original 5 Season plan, Byron and the Telepath Colony would have probably been introduced during mid-late Season 4 and would have been used by Babylon 5 and allies in the Shadow War. This likely would have leant far more creditability to the whole “we were weapons, give us a planet NOW” argument, but I do agree they should have asked before spying.
Basically, JMS wanted to resolve all the things he had been hinting at since Season 1, resolved in Season 4 what he could when told it was all he was getting very suddenly, and when he tried to resolve everything else in the Season 5 he was finally granted…it kinda didn’t work because the sequence of intended events wasn’t there to support it. Sadly.
Even still, JMS could have solved that entire issue by making all of Season 5 have "The Telepath War" as the major plotline, over the space of maybe 15-20 episodes, before finally wrapping everything up in the last couple of shows.
But instead, he tried to rush/force the storyline, which has never worked, (especially in Sci-Fi, see: BSG Season 4), and never will.
You have done a lot of great content on B5. I hope you find the success you deserve.
Thanks! I really appreciate that.
Claudia Christian said in an interview that she just wasn't contacted for appearing in season 5. She didn't abruptly leave after season 4. Sadly season 5 was a dogshit sandwich, and was on par with the B5 movies in quality.
Well that's just complete nonsense. They were negotiating with her for S5, just like all the other actors, and she didn't sign on.
From what I can put together, there was some kind of deadline that was fixed (due to producers of the actor's guild or whatever), and she didn't show up or hand in the signed papers in time for that deadline. Why she didn't, what led up to that, what happened afterwards, depends on who you ask (JMS, Christian, Boxleitner all have somewhat different views)
Perhaps the reason people on the show acted like he was so great and pure despite being an abrasive jerk was him using his powers to subtly manipulate the emotions of those he interacted with.
Yeah Byron was terribly portayed. The problem with Byron was that there was nothing for the audience to sympathize with. Not to mention the fact that you have him going up against the man who got up in a Vorlon's face and LIVED. Who went to Za'ha'dum, died and came back. Who flipped the bird to the Shadows AND the Vorlons at the SAME TIME... Who's mentor was the OLDEST sentient being in the universe... You have this messianic character and you give him a p12 with a chip on his shoulder as his antagonist? It was only a matter of time before Sheridan got tired of playing games and rolled over him like a freight train.
Sheridan just seemed bewildered the whole season. Not the same guy from season 4.
I’ve never really bought the idea that all of season 5’s woes were because of the accelerated pace. JMS has said that had things gone according to plan, season 4 would have ended with Intersections in Real Time. So, realistically, we only lost four or five episodes, at least a couple of which would have been Clarke’s ongoing efforts to destabilize B5 through indirect means (Which were tedious) and maybe one standalone episode.
I think a *lot* of the problem was that JMS was dealing with the switch to a new network and a shorter production schedule (1 day less per episode), gearing up to start a new show, making three TV movies, and so forth. I feel like a lot of the problem comes from him being overextended. And I also feel like, as you said, getting Crusade made him decide to just push all that stuff out into the next series.
So what I think the problem *really* is (I mean on top of the hyperextended JMS stuff) is that we got all the Byron crap *instead of* the Telepath War. Because he no longer needed to wrap it up in B5, *and* had to find something to fill up all that space. So it went from being the resolution of a long and interesting plot thread to a seven-episode “Coming attractions.”
That’s my hunch anyway
makes sense
I’d add that all his notes for season 5 were destroyed when his hotel room was cleaned out shortly before they started filming and had to start writing again from scratch and the only plot he could clearly remember and thus he spent way too much time on the story
*"THERRRRE IS NOOOO SAAAAANCTUUUUUUARY ALLLL FROOOOZEN" - Surrogate 2of Logan5.*
I hated Byron the moment I saw him, he looked and acted like a cult leader. There were so many ways they could have solved this issue. I have read so many B5 fanfics that lays out solutions to this issue. As for season 5, there are some excellent episodes, but also some bad ones.
"Most hated?" Nah. That would be Mr. Morden for most of the audience. If you meant "hated character that was supposed to be liked," then it might be accurate.
Disagree. You can have the most vile villain still be like by the audience because they are so vile, like Mr. Morden. Every sence you look forward to with behind the shadow plotting and mystery. Or mr. Bester on how he get underneath everyone skin without his telepathy.
Bryan, every scene with him, you know is going to be a drag.
I'm not ashamed that when I rewatch the show, I never skip Mr. Morden and Bester but I can skip the telepathy arc with Bryan
Totally agree with this analysis. I absolutely loved (most of) B5, but JMS has an issue with his writing where it often crosses over into the pretentious, but then veers back into greatness. I think he did way more good than bad, though. When the casting was great, it was REALLY great. The characters of G'Kar, Mollari and Vir were perfectly played by those actors, and they carried the show on their backs for me. But there was also a lot of clunkiness, stiff acting, and not great casting choices. I don't want to be mean and get too detailed here, but I will say Byron is not the only British character I wanted off the show.
I was so happy when the Byron story got wrapped up, and didn't even care how it was done. It was supposed to be tragic and I guess noble, but it was just empty and happily forgotten. The rest of the season was great, though. I swear I am not a hater in disguise. I genuinely ultimately love the show, and the incredible ambition of it's long form storytelling. I just can't ignore the issues either.
JMS often writes dialogue that's a bit strange and unnatural.
But when he finds actors who can make it convincing (like Londo and G'Kar) - its fantastic!
The very first time I saw the first episode with the telepaths talking about a telepath homeworld, I wondered why they didn't just ask for one of the smaller Markab colony worlds. The Markab weren't around anymore, and nobody ever mentioned any of the other races taking them over.
Yeah the only mention of them was that the other races looted the Markab worlds
Watch the main war and the earth war was over. I kind of was done with the show. B5 always struggled with it's filler episodes a lot of them weren't great. B5s main story arc carried the show hard. Once it was done. There was no point left to the show overall.
i DEVOURED this show from start to finish, back in the day...and i dont remember a damn thing about any of this
You DON'T remember Byron!? Lyta will be most displeased.
@@ZlothZloth sorry. i really dont.🤷♂
Well, as every B5 fan knows (including the makers of this video), Joe S. was forced to accelerate the story telling in Season 4 because there was very little chance of a season 5. When miraculously, at the last minute, the show was granted a 5th season, most of the 5th season story arc had already been told. So, Joe had to scramble to come up with enough story material to fill season 5, and it suffered accordingly.
There's this nice moment with subtitles, when Lita says: "there's going to be war between telepaths and monday"...
It flopped because we didn't see him and his people fight on the frontlines, if we saw him fight along sherigan and co against the shadows/vorlons, Clark dictatorship and Psycorp we would have had a inbuilt sympathy for him. Plus if he was less of a cult.
I agree - lost count of the number of times I said "aww shut up Byron. Pratt", On top of everything he was just boring.
I hated Lochley more.
I really didnt like Lochley when she first showed up but she grew on me.
She and Garibaldi had some good exchanges.
I enjoyed season 5, but it was the first season I watched before moving onto the others. (I got into the franchise in 1998 as it was being aired).
You may have been lucky - you watched the weakest season first and then it all gets better from there!
@@Phintasmo The guy I borrowed the VHS's from said exactly that.
As you mentioned the main problem was the show almost being cancelled, it messed up the last two sessions. A lot was rushed or cut short in S4 & S5, the flow of the show was hit hard.
They where trying to do a more hard SIFI take on telepathy, in books it's easier than film to show groups of people who dont need to talk.
Kind of hit me that Walter Koenig set a high bar, like Nimoy in Trek. I compare all new Vulcans in Trek to Spock & all new telepath's in B5 to Koenig.
Also, the whole Byron storyline should have been a one or two episode thing, not half a season.
I agree with most of the points, save Sheridan's. Sheridan assigned Lochley to resolve the situation, intending to train and teach her, which explains his inaction.
And yes, Byron deserved a cage in a zoo, not martyrdom.
Was I the only one who cheered when he blew himself up. Yes i hated Byron and curse those 8 episodes he was in.
What didn't make any sense to me was, the telepaths wanted their own world and just a few season ago the markab died out making their world move in ready but for some reason Sheridan forgets all about that.
I think this hits the nail right on the head as to why this plotline just didn't work. Overall season 5 feels like a ridiculous overlong epilogue to the most important storylines. It can't help but be a big letdown after the Shadow war and Human civil war.
It seems especially slow after the breakneck speed of events in season 4.
If they’d kept up the pace a bit I think it would have helped contrast with the final few episodes when we say farewell to all the characters.
I agree wholeheartedly. The 5th season was insufferable especially when these telepaths are involved. The ISA plotlines are mostly ok but Byron always rubbed me the wrong way.
My question is what happened to the telepath underground railroad established in earlier seasons and why they could not them there.
Minbar had no problem taking in the Asian girl when her latent telepathy emerged in Season 1.
A more important question was, with all that open space out there, why could no one allow them to settle on some planet where they could live alone in seclusion like the freaky hippies they were?
Nobody could spare a few acres in the woods?
Telepaths are only subjugated on Earth so anyone else’s space away from Psy Corps jurisdiction would have been fine.
They kind of want you to forget that season 1 episode - it raises the question of why all rogue telepaths dont go to Minbar.
I feel like Earth has jurisdiction over all humans - so they’d need some kind of official sanction/protection by the alliance to set up their own colony world - otherwise Psicorp just shows up and arrests them.
@@Phintasmo But you’re having to work out a reason because Joe didn’t have a good one. And if you’re going to expect people to forget small details, B5 is not show on which to do it.
It got cut in season four when JMS truncated the story arc to finish things out. I'm fairly certain if season five had been confirmed going into season four JMS would have had an arc dealing with telepaths during the Shadow War, most likely recruited from the Underground Railroad (Susan got Franklin's contacts at the end of season three for just that reason).
It didn't help that Season 4 felt like all the story arcs were already over. I didn't feel very invested in Byron's story because he was tacked on to a story that was already over: the Shadows and Vorlons were gone, the Civil War was over and Babylon 5 won, new agreements put all the characters in new positions, it honestly felt like the last episode of Season 4 was the finale the show deserved. Season 5 was just an unnecessary victory lap that also unnecessarily tied in some additional setup for things previously mentioned by the series.
I think having a cult vibe was the idea. But I believe that was the idea. JMS had a tendency to play with the concept of actions vs your gut. Compare Kosh and Morden. Morden was very pleasant and offered to help people, yet you knew he was the bad guy. Kosh did some very suspect things, but you never doubted he was a good guy.
I 100 percent agree the certainty cancelation at the end of season 4 caused the rush nature of the second half of season 4 (after into the fire). Then, when it got picked up for season 5 all these loose ends were just kind of picked up and mashed together; and it shows.
JMS really downplays it in a lot of interviews, but to me its obvious that he blew through a lot of his best material in season 4 and had to awkwardly modify what he had left.
Came across like a bunch of hippies in a commune, doing nothing but whine constantly about how their way of life is better than everyone else's. All while living off of the charity of others.
the biggest problem with byron is that once he finds out the truth about the telepaths he becomes stupid. One he plans is to black mail the alliance. A much better way to do it would be to ask for help and offer to aid or to serve with conditions that they can control their own fate. Someone would seek to gain an advantage but the problem is that instead its pushed to the front as a do this or we screw you over. Plus byrons just a jerk, instead of hippy commune it should have been more like a refugee camp. Less cult like worship and more him trying to keep everyone feed and everyone healthy. Plus constantly trying to find a planet to colonize have him meeting with ambassadors and negotiating to offer to mine a planet or grow crops for another government in exchange for them giving them the planet. Or maybe even trying to get the old markab homeworld -its empty now that they are all dead.
Yes!
His character shifts far too abruptly and things escalate implausibly quickly.
If you start with blackmail and it doesnt work where do you have left to go?
First time I have seen you in my thread, and this actually was interesting. I always found Crusade sn odd follow up to the original series with all the buildup for what sermed like a Martian and telepath points that it felt like were coming. With the new movie recently done, I have wondered if JMS might return to other open plots. Time will tell but thanks for this
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
Byron was indeed "off" as a character, and fully agree that his group was quite cult-y.
Robin Atkin Downes is a prolific voice actor in animation and video games. After beating Fallout New Vegas I had a good chuckle when I was watching the credits where he's listed as:
Robin Atkin "Don't Call him Byron" Downes 😀
I completely missed that credit in Fallout NV!
Glad to see he remembers where he came from, lol!
Honestly I think if they wanted to deal with this they could have. Once they had an issue on the station shared instead of just simply given them a ship from ISA Funds. And send them on their merry way. They could have Gone multiple places in the alliance, or asked a race like the Minbari Two settlements somewhere inside Minbari federation space On an isolated or remote island or planet somewhere where they could live out their lives as they sell fit. For that matter, why didn't they go to another alien? Ray such as the narn and ask for sanctuary. The norm would have gladly given them sanctuary in return for Genetic material. I think the messionic martyrdom was kind of played out with Sheridan by the time they got to Byron. It seemed a little bit tright and played out
Yeah, you'd think Sheridan would try something at the point where further confrontation with Psicorp appeared inevitable.
"We can't protect you, but we can send you on your way with a colony ship - don't tell us where you're going."
The telepath story changed several time.
There was one flashback in the crusade tv series where John Mathesons character has a flashback to his phycore days, he was left guarding a rogue telepath, who ultimatley convinced him to free her, she then warned him to leave and called in an airstrike on the hidden phycore base, which presumably was the end to telepath war or part of it. They wanted patricia tallman to come back and film that scene, though were unable to come to an agreement, or she was just unavailable. So the part the part of the prisoner was taken by a different character.
Tallman herself was brought back to the series after Andrea Thompson who played Talia Winters left the show. The arc of Lyta Alexander being enhanced by the vorlons was done to cover what would've been covered by the Talia Winters character who's abilities had been enhanced by her lover iron heart. Even though the Talia Winters character was brainwashed by the phsycore, the plot where kosh the vorlon ambassador took a copy of her mind would've been used to restore Talia Winters back to normal.
Byron needed charm. He didn't give off cult vibes to me just snobbery. Cult leaders are supposed to be magnetic they say weird stuff but something about them makes it seem compelling makes you want to help them. Big miss with the actor. He didn't have it. Add to it our smart characters being dumb it's a recipe for failure. Great video here.
Thanks!
Having just rewatched all of Babylon 5, I can tell you it didn't work because Byron was _Lord_ Byron. He was overly serious and self-satisfied all the time. There was no humor in this man.
I actually love this story line and the popular reaction to it because it illustrates how these things happen in the real world so well. The revolutionary/liberation leaders are never perfect and likable. The problems staring world leaders in the face for months and years aren't always at the top of their priority lists, often to their detriment. And most of all, nobody really knows what they're doing. It's all just made up as we go along. Sometimes we don't know what to do and we wait until we're forced to act. Those who have faced life long oppression often act in ways that seem irrational to those who haven't been through the same treatment. Biases, both conscious and unconscious, color all our actions and thoughts so that even good people can bring about terrible things through inaction or ignorance. I don't know how intentional all of that was on the part of JMS, but whether he meant to or not it's a great object lesson.