My grandfather was a cryptographer in WW2. He translated and decrypted Japanese radio transmissions. Alan Turing was his hero for his entire life and he spoke about him daily until he passed at 94 a few years ago. He often told the story of how we killed Yamamoto and continued flying pointless patrols through the area and did not share the fact that we'd killed him publicly so the Japanese would not know we'd broken their code. We made them think we got lucky. He often said "The world owes Alan Turing everything, but firstly it owes him an apology."
@@allen5455 Sadly Homophobia was rampant at that time. You could be imprisoned in the UK for your sexuality until the late 1970s. Gladly this has passed but not in Russia and many Islamic countries. As a heterosexual I have no idea why I am such - I do not even know why women find men attractive. But I do know this - you have no idea yourself allen5455 do you?
@@philipmain5701 Now that the Dodd decision is law, we should turn our attention to restoring the anti-sodomy laws. This will happen. The political left has "no idea" because each is of a reprobate mind. Repent! Believe the Good News of Christ Jesus.
My favorite part of this scene is watching Hugh as he silently realizes what Alan means - he gets there only a few seconds after Joan but it hits him harder. You can see the weight of it suddenly envelope him, and he just turns away sadly to lean on the closest desk.
@@reneprovosty7032 Alan Turing's only crime was being a gay man at a time when the world didn't understand that no person can choose their whether they're homosexual, straight or bisexual, it is in their genetics from birth. He was issued a posthumous pardon by Queen Elizabeth II in 2013 along with the British prime minister at the time giving an official public apology for what happened to Mr. Turing. He should NEVER have been convicted of the supposed "crime" because of the fact that he was a human being. Please do not make assumptions without knowing the actual facts of the incidents in question.
And he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal. Because he invented it! And then he perfected it. And then he beat the living crap out of every single one of them.
This scene shows Alan Turing as a true genius. He not only creates a remarkable invention, but he also has the sense to know how to utilize it most effectively.
This scene is pure fiction though. Turing played no part in how the intelligence was utilised, and it was used very extensively. The Allies just covered their tracks very well by concocting plausible alternative ways they would have gained the intelligence (e.g. by sending a spotter plane over the nazi U-boats to 'randomly' spot them before attacking).
One point that I would like to make about the above mentioned and its basic reality as it applies to us humans today..😢 Take for example the idea that we are not alone in the universe?! If ordinary people believed that life existed on other planets and they were to be revealed to have visited here? Todays society would revolt because it would betray everything that we have come to believe. Once that's happened it's a culture shock from which we may never recover! Keeping that a secret would also be utmost paramount, just for our own survival! It's no different than the reality that they faced in that situation. Think about it?! Would you not feel unsettled knowing that something else was far superior to our abilities! People already feel that way towards those that they already see as elites!
@@lawrencebrenton3365 Hope there is, there's very little intelligence here; Our 'grate' leader is bored so goes to war, the male herd of lemmings follow him to hell.
@@hobbso8508 Their deaths are included in the official military casualty list. And even if they weren't the moment you're armed you're a combatant I don't care what your 'official' designation is. Bullets are bullets. I'm a pragmatist legal niceties are for lawyers to sort out not soldiers. For me what matters is your contribution to the war effort not how you call yourself.
WWII was won on 25th August of 1940. Everything past that was slow decline of Axis into nonexistence without any hope for victory. And that was a year before these events.
@@prospero4183 it always is. We look at that era with bias of afterknowledge. Look up how many people call german/french/british/russian/american/japanese/italian/etc. commanders and politicians dumb or something along those lines.
Fun fact. The enigma machine that he uses in this clip is an actual enigma that bletchley park posessed during the war. Its still in blectcley park : )
This scene shows how each character is more clever then the other. Turing (the genius) knows they can't save the convoy, once he starts explaining, Joan (who beated Turing test in a shorter time than he could) realises in his first sentence. Then Hugh as he begins to explain it, followed by John and then Peter as Turing continues.
This WAS the best part of the movie!! Very well acted by everyone in the room!! Alan was a brilliant man,....a genius!!! B. C. did an excellent job of acting and portraying Alan!! Still one of the best movies out there!!!😉😉🤩🤩👍👍
Dont think so... He needed the guy to get his anger out. He punched him because he knew, he knew that he could save the boat but it was the wrong thing to do.... He knew Alan was right. Alan mentions it... you punched me, with anger, cause you knew, Anger is not out of your body, you can think logically now.
It's plausible since he's suppose to be autistic, and explaining yourself clearly to others don't come natural too him, and their urgency isn't his urgency. He has cold logic and emotion's don't play a part in his decision making. This is just very typical for any one with any form of autism. :)
In real life every one of them would have know this long before they cracked it. Only in movies is there a single genius and every one else is a blithering idiot.
Fictional films are fiction at their heart - they are about telling a story. Historical films like these are based on real historical events which are molded INTO a story, in this case a story about Turing and his life. There were about 10,000 people involved in the wider Bletchley Park program, and hunderds of ciphers. Of course you can't fit all that into a few hours, so they turn this into a story involving characters we can empathise with. All of these decisions on keeping the decoding secret was made by those at the higher levels and remained 'Ultra' secret, people were sworn to secrecy even well after the war ended, and the information wasn't revealed unitl well into the mid to late 70's. But to convey that to the auidence, the simplified it into this exchange.
the only problem with this sort of movies is that people start to take it for reality, at least those who don't get in deeper on it. Thereby simplifying reality and historical facts and context as it was a movie. In the long run people don' t get their facts straight anymore, and, as you see everywhere these days, start to think history, science and current world affairs are as simple as a romantic plot of some hollywood entertainment.
It could be debated that, while this was a great scene, it was limited by an understanding of filming at the current time. I’m not saying I have such an understanding (I don’t), but if cinema were to continue to develop, perhaps there would be enough breakthroughs and revolutions on filming technique and philosophy to capture the debates and 10,000 people within the decision making process in such a way a laymen audience could understand (laymen simply meaning average person, not an insult, more of a neutral term… ironically I’m oversimplifying laymen here) The categorised limitations of the now could very well be opportunities for the next-in-line.
This is a perfect example of what it means to sacrifice your life for your country. In order to keep the machine a secret he had to sacrifice his brothers as well as his own life in order to win the war. Doesn’t sound so cool and romantic when you see it actually happen does it?
"My friend, you would not tell with such high zest, To children desperate for some ardent glory The old lie: Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori." - Wilfred Owen.
In times of desperate war & fighting, sometimes, the needs/survival of the many far outweighed the needs of a few. Must be a mentally heartwrenching decision to be forced to remain a bystander to the loss of lives that you alone could've saved, but had to sacrifice.
Yeah cause in reality would code breakers really make a call like that? Their job is to crack the codes it would be their superiors job to decide what to do with it, to withhold potentially life saving information would not be their call to make,in fact, wouldn't that be treason?
That is a call above the Admiralty, however. It's a National-level asset so they were right not to tell the Admiralty first. The correct decision is to tell the Prime Minister/War Cabinet that 1) Enigma has been broken 2) the implications/extent of it 3) give recommendations based on their analysis of the situation This would all take longer than the ~30 minutes until the convoy was attacked
@fed1up quite possible. but im sure the people tasked with cracking enigma where more than smart enough to know that if they don't use their ability to read german communications and anticipate their moves with caution and farsightedness they would sacrifice their most powerfull advantage in this war. so i think when they presented their strides to their superiors they will have emphazised on the caution with which their decoding ability had to be implemented into a longterm strategie to gain the upperhand in the longrun. and i guess it's just easier to show that dilema in the way showed in this scene. but.. yes i too think that a decision like that most likely would have been made on a higher level.
The scary thing about the enigma is that, even with modern computer knowledge, it’s still not an easy machine to crack. The deep understanding that was needed for them to reverse engineer a solution to the enigma is astounding. It’s a shame what happened to Mr Turing
@@douglasharbert3340 Through brute force, sure. But Turing & Co. couldn't brute force it; they had to reverse engineer how it worked, then come up with a way to exploit it's own design. Much harder to do.
That's what they based this off, although that story is actually a myth, we didn't let Coventry be bombed to save enigma because we didn't know Coventry was the target, since those pesky Germans never referred to locations by name
Watching this for the first time when Alan shouts no and grabs the phone I immediately (being a huge Sherlock fan) thought of the Coventry conundrum. Because of that episode as soon as he said “No” I knew exactly what the horrible situation was. There’s another reference loop in Sherlock 2x2 Sherlock’s famous quote “when you eliminated the impossible whatever remains however improbable must be the truth” And Watson replies “ok Spock” And in star trek 2009 Spock says that exact quote…..
This might be the most unbelievable part of the movie. Even before the code would have been officially cracked, someone, somewhere at the top would have long thought of plans or procedures to make it seem credible to the Germans that their plans were foiled. Turing and team would have never had the right, or the desire to make strategic calls.
Still it says something about the moral responsibility. The scene is over simplifying things, but yet it shows us how overwhelming this knowledge and inability to use it must have been. They were all people after all... This says something about the terrible dillema someone somewhere had to face. Whether it was the team or some high level officials, still the weight of the information was the weight of human lives. This is the worst thing a person can ever experience... Responsibility and the knowledge that you could have saved innocent people but you didn't do anything because of the wider picture of events. Awful... War is awful...
well yes, thats why after this scene they went to someone who specialised in secrecy, who did have proper plans set out for this and was already doing it. but the military at Bletchley was not privy to those kinds of plans. The military at Bletchley was tasked with an impossible task and hoped to decode bits and pieces that would help them win fights and battles. It's not just that they didnt have plans, they didnt think it was possible to even need them. Turing and his team were the only ones with the right to make those kinds of strategic calls, they were the ones who broke the code after all
Yep. This whole part is complete bullshit, to put it lightly. Peter Hilton didn't even have any such brother, and wasn't working at Bletchley Park until after the machine was built. The Allies had plenty of ways to act on information leaks, and fool the Germans into how it leaked. For example, they used their double agent network to convince the Germans they were tracking U-boats by detecting the submarine's anti-aircraft radar systems. Enigma was the one place they never suspected they had information leaks. The military had been working with this kind of thing as far back as World War I. And Commander Alistair Denniston was not some obstructive bad guy looking to fire Alan any chance he got - he supported the team and viewed Alan as one of the best. The military and government officials would decide what to do with this information, not low ranking cryptographers (a little thing called the chain of command).
They should have had a scene before this where the group is running past the security checkpoint (but verifying their identities so the guards don't tackle or shoot them), then going into this room and doing this scene. However, when they pick up the phone, they slowly realize that there is no dial tone (or other 'connected' signal). Then at a critical moment you hear a voice at the back of the room, and it is Commodore Dennison saying "I don't know whether to hate you or admire you Professor Turing, because you made the right call by insulting my intelligence." Dennison then leans outside the door and says to someone standing outside, "leftenant, if anyone leaves this building before I do, shoot them." (cue the sound of running footsteps surrounding the building, to give the impression that the building is surrounded) Dennison then explains that very little happens on his base without his knowledge, and having the main team of codebreakers suddenly running onto the base caused the officer on duty to call him, and he was able to get to the base in time. He was standing outside the door, listening to the group, and decided to intervene at the right moment. He explains that his job is to win the war, not just one battle, and as a result he would not have passed on their warning. Their job is to gather intelligence, to crack Enigma, but their job is NOT to act on the information they receive. Dennison then knocks on the door to leave, tells the lieutenant to stand down the ready platoon, and to reconnect the phone line. (Basically, I didn't like how Commodore Dennison was portrayed in the movie. This would remind people that Commodore Dennison was placed in charge of a top secret strategic location because he could be trusted to make long-term decisions while keeping the civilians under control.)
like ok a lot of people are awful and that makes me sad but you know if I thought the only people in the world were the bad ones Id probably give up on life... like what's really the point at all if there's no one of any real character or morally upstanding to even hang out with? truthfully a lot of humans are fucked up and cold but it's not everyone.
This part in the movie certainly makes one wonder how many allies lives in WW2 were sacrificed to prevent the Germans from knowing the engima code had been broken.
It was cracked in July of 1941. Germany surrendered in May of 1945. A total of 75 million people died in WW2. 58% of which were allied civilians. That would be about 43 million civilians. take that and divide by the number of year for the war (rounding to 6). So potentially about 30 million allied civilians died from July 1941 to May 1945. I think we can safely argue that 10 million lives were sacrificed to protect this secret.
@@SophiaAphrodite No. 1) Half of the civilian deaths were in Russia. Those lives would not have been saved in any case. 2) If it had been known that the Allies had broken the Enigma code, a lot of other lives would have been lost and the war would almost surely have gone on longer.
@@SophiaAphrodite "A total of 75 million people died in WW2. 58% of which were allied civilians. That would be about 43 million civilians. " it's impossible to know how many lives would be lost without enigma.
The lives lost by keeping the cracking of that code and machine a secret was way less than we could have lost if the Germans had figured out we had broken it. Just look at what happened in the Battle for the Atlantic when the German Navy went to the 4 Rotor system. Instead of being able to miss the wolfpacks as we had been reading their mail almost as fast as they got it we had about 4 months of shipping losses about as great as during the so called Happy Time for the Germans.
@@williamzame3708 even though most of the civilian lives lost were in Russia we still saved lives there by being able to avoid the German navy's attempts to stop the polar convoys that went into Murmansk and Archangel. By being able to keep those 2 northern ports open and supplies going into them we shortened the supply line with the Russian army fighting around Leingrad and Moscow then on the push back west into Germany itself. We still supplied 10 percent of all materials used by the Russian government in WW2 in combat power not including the food and medical supplies. We sent over millions of tons of food.
Historian here: 1) NO, they did not have the authority to decide how to use the information in a case like this. The military authority above them made those decisions. They passed the information upward. 2) The premise however in this scene, ( even if over dramatized for the movie ) was that any action making use of the information they gleaned had to take into consideration the protection of their breaking of Enigma. In fact the Germans had suspicions anyway, and soon created the 4th wheel Enigma machine, which once again stumped decoding. 3) Military operations involving capturing of code books and documents had to continue during the war in order to continue to adapt and decode messages. It was genius to figure out a pattern to be able to find a key to decoding messages ( daily weather reports were in fact a pivotal element ) but the creation of the 'bombes' - the machines used to figure out code keys- were the true genius inventions. Modern computing was a result of these early electro mechanical systems.
Im not sure why they chose to change the first point you made. It is just as dramatic to have them relay the info and have everyone excited and tense and then have Turing say something along the lines of 'in his case, it doesnt matter. They can't change course, they have to protect the information etc' and then have him defend that decision whilst everyone else feels sick. Sacrifices none of the tension, keeps it more true to reality. It's a good movie but not sure why they don't work within the parameters of the true story, especially in places where it can work as well or even better.
@@justiniath The stakes are greater if they are the ones that are deciding what to do, so I'd argue a little of the tension is lost. It's harder to imagine Hugh (I think his name is) punching Alan for example when they don't have direct control. Personally, I'd have much preferred as you've written it and think the punch is silly anyway.
@@justiniath it just doesn't makes Hollywood if it's not simplified as a concept. Also, there's no show in having them telling someone else _("show, don't tell" technique)_ there's a reason why novels adapted for the screen always say “based on”; sometimes what works for written, doesn't work for the screen.
@@PrograError I understand the concept and I get why they did it but I think it is lazy. I think the punch is forced and there are plenty of ways to show and not tell here. Plus, this is already a scene with a lot of tell and not show. Also, the idea that they were cogs in the machine and that in the moment that they feel like they can save lives that decision was taken away from them is so much more impactful. I get what you're saying though.
@@justiniath IMO this scene is very much show, don't tell tho... it shows likely different reactions of the Admiralty when they got told they have cracked the code (even if they are behind the walls of compartmentalisation)
For the greater good... It takes a good person to make that decision, and a great person to feel remorse for doing so. For all his contributions and sacrifices, society couldn't just accepted him for who he is. What a shame...
Technically, he was playing 5D Chess as Dr. Strange, when he needed to defeat Thanos; He had to look at alternate realities to find the one scenario where the Avengers could win.
The same dilemma that faces handlers of double-agents. You only WANT them to give the enemy useless, or even detrimental, information. But if that is all they provide, the enemy will stop trusting them. So every now and then, you need to give them the truth. Sometimes you can time it so the information cannot be acted on in time (which happened during D-day: The true landing targets were given to the double agents, but too late to do anything about it). But sometimes you have to blow the lid on your own operations, and probably get someone killed, just to make sure your double-agents will still be listened to when you really need it.
When I was in school many years ago, two of my classmates (twins) mother was slightly known in the neighbourhood for having worked at Bletchly Park during WW2. Many years later I learned that she was one of the core group of codebreakers. I only wish that my 15-year-old self had had the nerve and the foresight to actually interview her about it. But... who of us at 15 would have known?
I always encouraged my students to go talk to those in the know. I ended up with a treasure trove of stories from people who worked in Camp X, the AVRO Arrow program, a Devil's Brigade member, a survivor of a German torpedo attack, a member of the Righteous, a Holocaust survivor, a York Uni volunteer in the Mississippi Summer Project, an internment camp survivor (Japanese Canadian) and so many others. I get it. I wish I'd had the courage to talk to the people in my neighbourhood growing up. So many stories. so much history.
The fact that us Brits put a homosexual genius on the highest denomination banknote is testament to our acknowledgment of this man’s profound impact on computer science. Darwin too. USA put In God We Trust on their currency, not people who’ve influenced our understanding of the sciences and our universe, and continue to use an outdated imperial measurement system. I’ll get hammered for saying this. As a scientist, I recognise genius. We reward those that change things for the better. My late wife had an IQ of 186. She was a genius. I married her for her brain. A remarkable mind. We need to encourage talent, educate our children, teach them to love and learn.
As a Star Wars fan, this here reminds me of a scene in Andor. Luthen Rael has information that Anto Kreegyr is planning an attack on Spellhaus. Luthen wants Saw Gererra to join him. Saw initially refuses the offer. However, the day before Kreegyr heads on over to Spellhaus, Saw is mobilizing his forces, ready to assist him on his own terms. But by that point, things had changed. One of Luthen's moles informed him that the Empire already knows what Kreegyr is planning and will be waiting with an ambush. Luthen then has to explain to Saw that he no longer can head on out to assist Kreegyr in order to have Kreegyr succeed. Because doing so, will make the Empire paranoid. They will KNOW something's amiss, they will trust nothing. And worse yet, they could find Luthen's mole. Luthen with a heavy heart chooses to not inform Kreegyr and convinces Saw to stay out of it in order to have Kreegyr fail, because doing exactly that means the Empire will feel invincible. The Empire will think there is no leak in security, because they succeeded after all. It gives Luthen and Saw free reign to continue to play the long game against the Empire. All warfare is based on deception. Luthen's mole is the equivalent to the Enigma machine. One has to use such an asset in such a way that the enemy don't suspect their secrets has been spilled. Both Luthen and Alan Turing knew this perfectly well.
FYI: In reality, Hilton had no such brother, and decisions about when and whether to use data from Ultra intelligence were made at much higher administrative levels. Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imitation_Game#Historical_events
So if they kept it a secret, how did they use it to win the war? Did they organize a full on singular assault or something? Did this breakthrough lead to D-Day?
In this case, the Germans know the convoy's there and they know its course and are planning an attack which is due to occur within the hour. If the convoy suddenly changes course right before the attack, it looks suspicious. Too suspicious. However, Bletchley Park knew the movements of the Wolfpacks and they knew their reports of sighting Allied convoys. Convoys that hadn't been located could be steered away from the Wolfpacks. They could also arrange for spotter planes to locate U-boats they already knew about so that the Germans would think the plane did the discovering; not that their position was already known. Vital convoys could be protected while less important groups would be left to make contact with the enemy; sacrificial lambs as it were. Although the toll escorts took on U-boats meant that the Germans never had an overwhelming victory. On land, if you knew an attack was coming you couldn't have the troops making sudden extensive defensive preparations. But you could prepare a response to be waiting behind the lines, ready to counterattack. This would then look like an intelligence failure on the Germans part; failing to locate the enemy's reserves. In the case of Operation Citadel; everyone knew the Germans were planning to attack the Kursk salient. The Soviets knew the attack coming. The Germans knew the Soviets knew and were making huge preparations for it. It was an obvious target. What the Germans didn't know was that between British and Soviet intelligence, the USSR knew more about the Wehrmacht forces preparing for the attack than the German generals did. They knew which armies would take part, which divisions constituted those armies, how many tanks and guns they possessed; everything. This allowed the Soviets to tailor their defences to the coming attack. Conversely, as the Germans lacked this kind of extensive intelligence; they had no idea the Soviets had amassed a reserve force of over a million men, ready to counterattack if it looked like the Germans were going to break through the Kursk defences.
You need emotions and drama and to give the answers to the viewers so they can feel and understand too. Alot of people would have been like: WTF! Emotions or Not
the guy transcribing would have known after 5 letters that it worked, but he looks at the final message as though he was transcribing in his sleep and just woke up. That is a necessary part of the scene, you need to allow a little theatre.
I actually think it paints the others in a good light as it shows their thought was not winning the war it was the value of 500 plus civilian lives that could be saved
Jonabank mate their right I mean what can they do if the Germans found out that they broken the Engima code, they would have change the Code and would 2 years would be all for nothing
Many of these tough decisions had to be made. The Coventry Blitz was one them. The city was sacrificed even though long before Churchill knew it was going to be attacked
We all know this (wonderful) "problem" ran all the way up the chain of command to Churchill. Even he and his advisors had to be extremely careful in their reaction(s) not to let on because of ULTRA information. That kind of situation certainly has the potential to tear an individual in two...weighing lives, ethics, secrecy and the overarching good of sometimes doing...nothing.
Wait, did stuff like this really happen? I'm not talking about Turing's team making big decisions, but about not using intel to prevent raising suspicions? Did it happen?
To avoid suspicion after Enigma was broke, the Allies can only take action on 5% or so of the messages intercepted. Does anyone know of publications, articles that explain this tactic of reacting to only some of the messages so that the opponent (Germans in this case) doesn't realize they need to abandon (Enigma).
While I like the scene making suck decision is beyond the scope of what they did at Bletchley Park, Turing didnt decide on which information was acted the admiralty and war offices did. SO yes this discussion would have taken place it just wouldnt have taken place at Bletchley Park between these people
I have a question. Couldn't they have saved everyone, and then when the Nazis redesigned their enigma machine, they could have beaten that redesigned enigma machine with the Turing machine? It wouldn't have been a waste of two years work, because the Turing machine got built, and they knew that they don't have to figure out every word to beat the enigma machine.
Dont know if you noticed, but the whole point of redesining enigma is to make whatever method the allies used to crack the code obsolete. Them saving the convoy would have resulted in all their work being pointless.
i imagine the Germans would create more settings or change the design of enigma. Such a small change could render Turing’s machine pointless because he built it based on the original enigma machine and only got it to work when he found out that he should use Heil Hitler. The germans were EXTREMELY paranoid like get your children to snitch on you paranoid, if a convoy somehow managed to avoid a high skilled U-Boat everyone would ask questions and immediately change the machine. While 500 lives is a large number of people to be sacrificing you have to remember that this is war. Something that will cost lives and depends on strategy, in the end saving 500 lives couldn’t be justified when the machine could be used to save thousands and win the war
Unless they build a new machine that doesn't work on the computer. The Brits made a Type X machine that was like a more sophisticated enigma. The Germans never cracked.
For dramatic effect, the movie departs from history in some scenes. In reality, the code breakers would not have made this decision. Intercepted messages would have been passed up their chain of command. The people at the top would have made the decisions about how to handle that information. I don't know whether the Allies decided to let Axis submarines attack a convoy or not. But, in reality, such decisions were made. In one case, a message was decrypted to reveal the Germans were planning an attack on factory in England. To protect the secret that Enigma code had been broken, nothing was done to stop or resist the attack, or to protect the workers.
I can only imagine the heartache of making those kinds of deicisions. Knowing what the Germans were planning and letting them happen to that you can stop the big ones
Frankly, with a 20 minute window, even if they got the word out help wouldnt arrive in time. I know they said planes are 10 minutes away but this is 1940s tech, communication wasnt that quick, it would have to go through multiple stations before ever reaching the pilots. And thats assuming anyone believed that they cracked enigma since at this point in the movie they hadnt reported it yet
This scene actually presents things as MORE dire than they actually were. While probably this immediate convoy would have to be sacrificed, the scene seems to imply that they'll have to be similarly judicious about it for the entire war. But in reality, the British were able to make it look like they were getting their Weirdly Accurate Intelligence from conventional means: scouting, cloak and dagger intelligence operations, vigilance, and so on. This, combined with German Military Intelligence being a goddamn joke, meant that the Nazis were never able to keep their communications encrypted for very long, and the Allies could use their intelligence gained from cracking Enigma much more aggressively.
These situations are always hard. But if you just imagine they didn't break Enigma at that moment, that convoy was going to be destroyed anyway. So Alan was right, even if it was a difficult decision.
Ego? Oh yeah, that's right: it's always ego that has someone saying "God is on our side," either their own or the egos of those who are witnessing the statement and have some power over the one who announces it.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
My grandfather was a cryptographer in WW2. He translated and decrypted Japanese radio transmissions. Alan Turing was his hero for his entire life and he spoke about him daily until he passed at 94 a few years ago. He often told the story of how we killed Yamamoto and continued flying pointless patrols through the area and did not share the fact that we'd killed him publicly so the Japanese would not know we'd broken their code. We made them think we got lucky. He often said "The world owes Alan Turing everything, but firstly it owes him an apology."
Nobody asked
@@elliotcaddy9217 No one asked you to reply either. Why did you?
An apology for opposing queer? Not a chance!
@@allen5455 Sadly Homophobia was rampant at that time. You could be imprisoned in the UK for your sexuality until the late 1970s.
Gladly this has passed but not in Russia and many Islamic countries.
As a heterosexual I have no idea why I am such - I do not even know why women find men attractive.
But I do know this - you have no idea yourself allen5455 do you?
@@philipmain5701 Now that the Dodd decision is law, we should turn our attention to restoring the anti-sodomy laws. This will happen. The political left has "no idea" because each is of a reprobate mind. Repent! Believe the Good News of Christ Jesus.
My favorite part of this scene is watching Hugh as he silently realizes what Alan means - he gets there only a few seconds after Joan but it hits him harder. You can see the weight of it suddenly envelope him, and he just turns away sadly to lean on the closest desk.
wait until you find out how hard it hits Peter
look and listen - then think carefully !
@@kcking To be fair, it was family.
He saved more than 14 million lives, shorted the war by two years and still his live couldn’t be saved. So heartbreaking
Too bad this movie is bullshit for being historically inaccurate.
guy got arrested for a crime and got consequences.
@@reneprovosty7032 Alan Turing's only crime was being a gay man at a time when the world didn't understand that no person can choose their whether they're homosexual, straight or bisexual, it is in their genetics from birth. He was issued a posthumous pardon by Queen Elizabeth II in 2013 along with the British prime minister at the time giving an official public apology for what happened to Mr. Turing. He should NEVER have been convicted of the supposed "crime" because of the fact that he was a human being. Please do not make assumptions without knowing the actual facts of the incidents in question.
@@reneprovosty7032 What a shitty fucking perspective you have there
@@Scytheslinger you just don't understand wat I am talking about sir.
"All warfare is based on deception"
Sun Tzu
Friendly fire will not be tolerated.
And he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal. Because he invented it! And then he perfected it.
And then he beat the living crap out of every single one of them.
@@leonard_9500 o7
@@souswodaem1 Press F
@@souswodaem1 friendly fire have always been tolerated if its for the betterment of the war
This scene shows Alan Turing as a true genius. He not only creates a remarkable invention, but he also has the sense to know how to utilize it most effectively.
This scene is pure fiction though. Turing played no part in how the intelligence was utilised, and it was used very extensively. The Allies just covered their tracks very well by concocting plausible alternative ways they would have gained the intelligence (e.g. by sending a spotter plane over the nazi U-boats to 'randomly' spot them before attacking).
One point that I would like to make about the above mentioned and its basic reality as it applies to us humans today..😢
Take for example the idea that we are not alone in the universe?!
If ordinary people believed that life existed on other planets and they were to be revealed to have visited here? Todays society would revolt because it would betray everything that we have come to believe. Once that's happened it's a culture shock from which we may never recover! Keeping that a secret would also be utmost paramount, just for our own survival! It's no different than the reality that they faced in that situation. Think about it?! Would you not feel unsettled knowing that something else was far superior to our abilities! People already feel that way towards those that they already see as elites!
@@lawrencebrenton3365 Hope there is, there's very little intelligence here; Our 'grate' leader is bored so goes to war, the male herd of lemmings follow him to hell.
@@Youbularbells Do you know why that is? Because someone had the bright idea to keep the code breaking a secret
What an asshole
"There are 500 civilians in that convoy-"
Alan: In the grand calculus of the multiverse, their sacrifice means much more than their deaths.
Unless that convoy was transporting refugees there were no civilians in that convoy. Merchant navy men were armed and equippped to defend their ships.
@@florinivan6907 They can be as armed as you like, they aren't going to shoot a submarine.
@@hobbso8508 Makes no difference the moment you pick up a rifle on the battlefield you lose your civilian status.
@@florinivan6907 No, they were civilian volunteers.
@@hobbso8508 Their deaths are included in the official military casualty list. And even if they weren't the moment you're armed you're a combatant I don't care what your 'official' designation is. Bullets are bullets. I'm a pragmatist legal niceties are for lawyers to sort out not soldiers. For me what matters is your contribution to the war effort not how you call yourself.
Talk about a dilemma
*enigma
WWII was won on 25th August of 1940. Everything past that was slow decline of Axis into nonexistence without any hope for victory. And that was a year before these events.
@@TheArklyte No, actually. Nobody would ever argue that date ever.
Not really a dilemma. It just seems that way viewed through history.
@@prospero4183 it always is. We look at that era with bias of afterknowledge. Look up how many people call german/french/british/russian/american/japanese/italian/etc. commanders and politicians dumb or something along those lines.
I love a good script... this movie gave me goosebumps every ten minutes.
"In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies." - Winston S. Churchill
Wow great quote
Wow, amazing leader he was
Bodyguard of Lies: Written by Anthony Cave Brown.. A great book..
Alan Turing deserved better life🥺
Fun fact. The enigma machine that he uses in this clip is an actual enigma that bletchley park posessed during the war. Its still in blectcley park : )
Benedict did an amazzzing job. Seeing him portray Kahn from Star Trek, Dr Strange, and Alan Turing, he's got so much range
And Sherlock
@@sushantgoswami9149 and Smaug
@@sushantgoswami9149 Scherlock is cool it was my favourite in Netflix cheers from Poland 🙂
And Dormammu
Benedicts prtrayl of Khan sucked big time. Ricardo Montbahn will always be Khan.
This scene shows how each character is more clever then the other. Turing (the genius) knows they can't save the convoy, once he starts explaining, Joan (who beated Turing test in a shorter time than he could) realises in his first sentence. Then Hugh as he begins to explain it, followed by John and then Peter as Turing continues.
This WAS the best part of the movie!! Very well acted by everyone in the room!! Alan was a brilliant man,....a genius!!! B. C. did an excellent job of acting and portraying Alan!! Still one of the best movies out there!!!😉😉🤩🤩👍👍
he could have just told him "If u do, the Nazis will know". then he would have avoided being punched in the face. just saying
Dont think so... He needed the guy to get his anger out. He punched him because he knew, he knew that he could save the boat but it was the wrong thing to do.... He knew Alan was right. Alan mentions it... you punched me, with anger, cause you knew, Anger is not out of your body, you can think logically now.
It's plausible since he's suppose to be autistic, and explaining yourself clearly to others don't come natural too him, and their urgency isn't his urgency. He has cold logic and emotion's don't play a part in his decision making. This is just very typical for any one with any form of autism. :)
Ragna R this
In real life every one of them would have know this long before they cracked it. Only in movies is there a single genius and every one else is a blithering idiot.
Yeah, but elephants can't swim upstream.
Fictional films are fiction at their heart - they are about telling a story. Historical films like these are based on real historical events which are molded INTO a story, in this case a story about Turing and his life. There were about 10,000 people involved in the wider Bletchley Park program, and hunderds of ciphers. Of course you can't fit all that into a few hours, so they turn this into a story involving characters we can empathise with. All of these decisions on keeping the decoding secret was made by those at the higher levels and remained 'Ultra' secret, people were sworn to secrecy even well after the war ended, and the information wasn't revealed unitl well into the mid to late 70's. But to convey that to the auidence, the simplified it into this exchange.
the only problem with this sort of movies is that people start to take it for reality, at least those who don't get in deeper on it. Thereby simplifying reality and historical facts and context as it was a movie. In the long run people don' t get their facts straight anymore, and, as you see everywhere these days, start to think history, science and current world affairs are as simple as a romantic plot of some hollywood entertainment.
@@yottagram Its not like it matters to them anyway, so what?
It could be debated that, while this was a great scene, it was limited by an understanding of filming at the current time.
I’m not saying I have such an understanding (I don’t), but if cinema were to continue to develop, perhaps there would be enough breakthroughs and revolutions on filming technique and philosophy to capture the debates and 10,000 people within the decision making process in such a way a laymen audience could understand (laymen simply meaning average person, not an insult, more of a neutral term… ironically I’m oversimplifying laymen here)
The categorised limitations of the now could very well be opportunities for the next-in-line.
@@yottagram getting the simple version is better than getting no version at all.
@@yottagram getting the simple version is better than getting no version at all.
who else is watching on a turing machine?
Imao
lol :)
I see you're a man of excellent taste, Will.
@Aidan Bavinton ^
Who else here could pass a Turing test?
Imagine to have greatest acomplishment in your life. The best anyone of your generation could think of. And you can tell none. Unhuman.
I like how Alan accounted for this because in his mind he knew they'd crack enigma
This is a perfect example of what it means to sacrifice your life for your country. In order to keep the machine a secret he had to sacrifice his brothers as well as his own life in order to win the war. Doesn’t sound so cool and romantic when you see it actually happen does it?
"My friend, you would not tell with such high zest,
To children desperate for some ardent glory
The old lie: Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori." - Wilfred Owen.
In times of desperate war & fighting, sometimes, the needs/survival of the many far outweighed the needs of a few. Must be a mentally heartwrenching decision to be forced to remain a bystander to the loss of lives that you alone could've saved, but had to sacrifice.
Reminds me of Robb with the 2,000 men he sent to die to beat Jamie Lannister.
But it didn't happen
Churchill had to do the same thing with Coventry.
Those decisions were actually made at a much higher level
Yeah cause in reality would code breakers really make a call like that? Their job is to crack the codes it would be their superiors job to decide what to do with it, to withhold potentially life saving information would not be their call to make,in fact, wouldn't that be treason?
That is a call above the Admiralty, however. It's a National-level asset so they were right not to tell the Admiralty first. The correct decision is to tell the Prime Minister/War Cabinet that
1) Enigma has been broken
2) the implications/extent of it
3) give recommendations based on their analysis of the situation
This would all take longer than the ~30 minutes until the convoy was attacked
@@a.m.s6611 other code breakers are not turing who invented computers and decided world war.. comparing dirt with diamonds/
@fed1up quite possible. but im sure the people tasked with cracking enigma where more than smart enough to know that if they don't use their ability to read german communications and anticipate their moves with caution and farsightedness they would sacrifice their most powerfull advantage in this war. so i think when they presented their strides to their superiors they will have emphazised on the caution with which their decoding ability had to be implemented into a longterm strategie to gain the upperhand in the longrun. and i guess it's just easier to show that dilema in the way showed in this scene. but.. yes i too think that a decision like that most likely would have been made on a higher level.
They simplify it here but that's kind of the intent - coz they start sharing the results with the spymaster who then decides what action to take.
The real reasons it was kept secret is nothing short of incredible
And how long they kept it secret after the war.
👍
1:25 "That there's some good in this world Mr Frodo and that it's worth fighting for"
*_Seriously this dude looks way too much like Sam_*
Unironically could be Sean Astin's son or younger brother.
The scary thing about the enigma is that, even with modern computer knowledge, it’s still not an easy machine to crack. The deep understanding that was needed for them to reverse engineer a solution to the enigma is astounding. It’s a shame what happened to Mr Turing
A modern supercomputer would crack Enigma in seconds. Our current supercomputers perform one quadrillion operations per second.
@@douglasharbert3340 Through brute force, sure. But Turing & Co. couldn't brute force it; they had to reverse engineer how it worked, then come up with a way to exploit it's own design. Much harder to do.
Another trick by Doctor Strange to defeat Thanos.
You’re full of tricks wizard
lol...
While working with Veidt.
It is like Coventry from Sherlock episode four
I was just thinking about it
That's what they based this off, although that story is actually a myth, we didn't let Coventry be bombed to save enigma because we didn't know Coventry was the target, since those pesky Germans never referred to locations by name
It is Coventry from Sherlock. That is what he was referring to
It is just amazing that Turing himself thought of it first and he is also played by Benedict Cumberbatch.
Watching this for the first time when Alan shouts no and grabs the phone I immediately (being a huge Sherlock fan) thought of the Coventry conundrum.
Because of that episode as soon as he said “No” I knew exactly what the horrible situation was.
There’s another reference loop in Sherlock 2x2
Sherlock’s famous quote “when you eliminated the impossible whatever remains however improbable must be the truth”
And Watson replies “ok Spock”
And in star trek 2009 Spock says that exact quote…..
“Now for the hard part….keeping it a secret”
Cairncross: leave that to me
To sum this up
" Sins of the fathers that had to make tough decisions, self righteous vs ideal logic "
Captain America will be proud of Doctor Strange who cracked the code to win the Second World War for us
Including the strategy for beating thanos
This might be the most unbelievable part of the movie. Even before the code would have been officially cracked, someone, somewhere at the top would have long thought of plans or procedures to make it seem credible to the Germans that their plans were foiled. Turing and team would have never had the right, or the desire to make strategic calls.
Still it says something about the moral responsibility. The scene is over simplifying things, but yet it shows us how overwhelming this knowledge and inability to use it must have been. They were all people after all... This says something about the terrible dillema someone somewhere had to face. Whether it was the team or some high level officials, still the weight of the information was the weight of human lives. This is the worst thing a person can ever experience... Responsibility and the knowledge that you could have saved innocent people but you didn't do anything because of the wider picture of events. Awful... War is awful...
@@marta9127 A little bit like Triage on ER
well yes, thats why after this scene they went to someone who specialised in secrecy, who did have proper plans set out for this and was already doing it. but the military at Bletchley was not privy to those kinds of plans. The military at Bletchley was tasked with an impossible task and hoped to decode bits and pieces that would help them win fights and battles. It's not just that they didnt have plans, they didnt think it was possible to even need them. Turing and his team were the only ones with the right to make those kinds of strategic calls, they were the ones who broke the code after all
Yep. This whole part is complete bullshit, to put it lightly. Peter Hilton didn't even have any such brother, and wasn't working at Bletchley Park until after the machine was built. The Allies had plenty of ways to act on information leaks, and fool the Germans into how it leaked. For example, they used their double agent network to convince the Germans they were tracking U-boats by detecting the submarine's anti-aircraft radar systems. Enigma was the one place they never suspected they had information leaks. The military had been working with this kind of thing as far back as World War I. And Commander Alistair Denniston was not some obstructive bad guy looking to fire Alan any chance he got - he supported the team and viewed Alan as one of the best. The military and government officials would decide what to do with this information, not low ranking cryptographers (a little thing called the chain of command).
They should have had a scene before this where the group is running past the security checkpoint (but verifying their identities so the guards don't tackle or shoot them), then going into this room and doing this scene. However, when they pick up the phone, they slowly realize that there is no dial tone (or other 'connected' signal).
Then at a critical moment you hear a voice at the back of the room, and it is Commodore Dennison saying "I don't know whether to hate you or admire you Professor Turing, because you made the right call by insulting my intelligence." Dennison then leans outside the door and says to someone standing outside, "leftenant, if anyone leaves this building before I do, shoot them." (cue the sound of running footsteps surrounding the building, to give the impression that the building is surrounded)
Dennison then explains that very little happens on his base without his knowledge, and having the main team of codebreakers suddenly running onto the base caused the officer on duty to call him, and he was able to get to the base in time. He was standing outside the door, listening to the group, and decided to intervene at the right moment. He explains that his job is to win the war, not just one battle, and as a result he would not have passed on their warning. Their job is to gather intelligence, to crack Enigma, but their job is NOT to act on the information they receive.
Dennison then knocks on the door to leave, tells the lieutenant to stand down the ready platoon, and to reconnect the phone line.
(Basically, I didn't like how Commodore Dennison was portrayed in the movie. This would remind people that Commodore Dennison was placed in charge of a top secret strategic location because he could be trusted to make long-term decisions while keeping the civilians under control.)
What a genius Alan was, we treated him so badly, and he still saved millions of lives.
lovely scene
This scene works dramatically, but this conversation would have been had and settled by other people, before work even started on cracking Enigma.
I cant imagine this decision being made anymore, people cant bear to sacrifice for the greater good these days and it brings me both relief and worry
People can surprise you
Really what makes you say that? Horrible shit is happening around the world as we speak
Maybe we should stop putting ourselves in positions to have to make these decisions in the first place.
What are you on about? We lifted lockdowns knowing full well people will die as a result to help the economy. LMAO
like ok a lot of people are awful and that makes me sad but you know if I thought the only people in the world were the bad ones Id probably give up on life...
like what's really the point at all if there's no one of any real character or morally upstanding to even hang out with? truthfully a lot of humans are fucked up and cold but it's not everyone.
Talk about a condensation of historical events! But, this is entertainment after all.
Its theater. You want facts, you read a book. Doesn't take away from the point of this movie.
It sucks soo much about his brother.. but in the strategic side of this warfare, this was the right call :(
This part in the movie certainly makes one wonder how many allies lives in WW2 were sacrificed to prevent the Germans from knowing the engima code had been broken.
It was cracked in July of 1941. Germany surrendered in May of 1945. A total of 75 million people died in WW2. 58% of which were allied civilians. That would be about 43 million civilians. take that and divide by the number of year for the war (rounding to 6). So potentially about 30 million allied civilians died from July 1941 to May 1945. I think we can safely argue that 10 million lives were sacrificed to protect this secret.
@@SophiaAphrodite No. 1) Half of the civilian deaths were in Russia. Those lives would not have been saved in any case. 2) If it had been known that the Allies had broken the Enigma code, a lot of other lives would have been lost and the war would almost surely have gone on longer.
@@SophiaAphrodite "A total of 75 million people died in WW2. 58% of which were allied civilians. That would be about 43 million civilians. "
it's impossible to know how many lives would be lost without enigma.
The lives lost by keeping the cracking of that code and machine a secret was way less than we could have lost if the Germans had figured out we had broken it. Just look at what happened in the Battle for the Atlantic when the German Navy went to the 4 Rotor system. Instead of being able to miss the wolfpacks as we had been reading their mail almost as fast as they got it we had about 4 months of shipping losses about as great as during the so called Happy Time for the Germans.
@@williamzame3708 even though most of the civilian lives lost were in Russia we still saved lives there by being able to avoid the German navy's attempts to stop the polar convoys that went into Murmansk and Archangel. By being able to keep those 2 northern ports open and supplies going into them we shortened the supply line with the Russian army fighting around Leingrad and Moscow then on the push back west into Germany itself. We still supplied 10 percent of all materials used by the Russian government in WW2 in combat power not including the food and medical supplies. We sent over millions of tons of food.
Historian here: 1) NO, they did not have the authority to decide how to use the information in a case like this. The military authority above them made those decisions. They passed the information upward. 2) The premise however in this scene, ( even if over dramatized for the movie ) was that any action making use of the information they gleaned had to take into consideration the protection of their breaking of Enigma. In fact the Germans had suspicions anyway, and soon created the 4th wheel Enigma machine, which once again stumped decoding. 3) Military operations involving capturing of code books and documents had to continue during the war in order to continue to adapt and decode messages. It was genius to figure out a pattern to be able to find a key to decoding messages ( daily weather reports were in fact a pivotal element ) but the creation of the 'bombes' - the machines used to figure out code keys- were the true genius inventions. Modern computing was a result of these early electro mechanical systems.
Im not sure why they chose to change the first point you made. It is just as dramatic to have them relay the info and have everyone excited and tense and then have Turing say something along the lines of 'in his case, it doesnt matter. They can't change course, they have to protect the information etc' and then have him defend that decision whilst everyone else feels sick. Sacrifices none of the tension, keeps it more true to reality. It's a good movie but not sure why they don't work within the parameters of the true story, especially in places where it can work as well or even better.
@@justiniath The stakes are greater if they are the ones that are deciding what to do, so I'd argue a little of the tension is lost. It's harder to imagine Hugh (I think his name is) punching Alan for example when they don't have direct control.
Personally, I'd have much preferred as you've written it and think the punch is silly anyway.
@@justiniath it just doesn't makes Hollywood if it's not simplified as a concept. Also, there's no show in having them telling someone else _("show, don't tell" technique)_
there's a reason why novels adapted for the screen always say “based on”; sometimes what works for written, doesn't work for the screen.
@@PrograError I understand the concept and I get why they did it but I think it is lazy. I think the punch is forced and there are plenty of ways to show and not tell here. Plus, this is already a scene with a lot of tell and not show. Also, the idea that they were cogs in the machine and that in the moment that they feel like they can save lives that decision was taken away from them is so much more impactful. I get what you're saying though.
@@justiniath IMO this scene is very much show, don't tell tho... it shows likely different reactions of the Admiralty when they got told they have cracked the code (even if they are behind the walls of compartmentalisation)
The expression on John face just about makes the whole scene
good history.
This is the part when you know Alan Turing is a real genius.
For the greater good... It takes a good person to make that decision, and a great person to feel remorse for doing so. For all his contributions and sacrifices, society couldn't just accepted him for who he is. What a shame...
I liked this movie and all the actors😎
You may feel he made the wrong decision but in the end it was the right one
if you feel he made the wrong decision then this movie isnt for you.
He broke the code, and he keep the secret plan from Watson, Moriarty, Kirk, Spock, Tony and Thanos too... Benedict playing 4D chess with everybody.
Technically, he was playing 5D Chess as Dr. Strange, when he needed to defeat Thanos; He had to look at alternate realities to find the one scenario where the Avengers could win.
Holy shit Mycroft mentioned this in Sherlock and it's the same actor. MIND BLOWN
I wonder how long they kept that (their deaths)a secret
The same dilemma that faces handlers of double-agents. You only WANT them to give the enemy useless, or even detrimental, information. But if that is all they provide, the enemy will stop trusting them. So every now and then, you need to give them the truth. Sometimes you can time it so the information cannot be acted on in time (which happened during D-day: The true landing targets were given to the double agents, but too late to do anything about it). But sometimes you have to blow the lid on your own operations, and probably get someone killed, just to make sure your double-agents will still be listened to when you really need it.
Sometimes the price for saving millions of lives requires the sacrifices of a few
The 1 universe out of 14 millions where Dr. Strange beats Ozymandias
When I was in school many years ago, two of my classmates (twins) mother was slightly known in the neighbourhood for having worked at Bletchly Park during WW2. Many years later I learned that she was one of the core group of codebreakers. I only wish that my 15-year-old self had had the nerve and the foresight to actually interview her about it. But... who of us at 15 would have known?
I always encouraged my students to go talk to those in the know. I ended up with a treasure trove of stories from people who worked in Camp X, the AVRO Arrow program, a Devil's Brigade member, a survivor of a German torpedo attack, a member of the Righteous, a Holocaust survivor, a York Uni volunteer in the Mississippi Summer Project, an internment camp survivor (Japanese Canadian) and so many others. I get it. I wish I'd had the courage to talk to the people in my neighbourhood growing up. So many stories. so much history.
She would have kept her mouth shut about what she really did, and fed you a false story that 'I was only a minor typist'.
Best scene in the film.
There is nothing justice only law that building which look where judges sit
A Cumberbatch of Cumbercookies
It’s crazy as the guy who plays Ozymandias got to play two intelligent characters that had to sacrifice lives to save a bunch more.
Marvelous exposition! It's on par with a seminal book I read in this field. "Game Theory and the Pursuit of Algorithmic Fairness" by Various Authors
The fact that us Brits put a homosexual genius on the highest denomination banknote is testament to our acknowledgment of this man’s profound impact on computer science. Darwin too. USA put In God We Trust on their currency, not people who’ve influenced our understanding of the sciences and our universe, and continue to use an outdated imperial measurement system. I’ll get hammered for saying this. As a scientist, I recognise genius. We reward those that change things for the better. My late wife had an IQ of 186. She was a genius. I married her for her brain. A remarkable mind. We need to encourage talent, educate our children, teach them to love and learn.
As a Star Wars fan, this here reminds me of a scene in Andor.
Luthen Rael has information that Anto Kreegyr is planning an attack on Spellhaus. Luthen wants Saw Gererra to join him. Saw initially refuses the offer.
However, the day before Kreegyr heads on over to Spellhaus, Saw is mobilizing his forces, ready to assist him on his own terms. But by that point, things had changed. One of Luthen's moles informed him that the Empire already knows what Kreegyr is planning and will be waiting with an ambush. Luthen then has to explain to Saw that he no longer can head on out to assist Kreegyr in order to have Kreegyr succeed. Because doing so, will make the Empire paranoid. They will KNOW something's amiss, they will trust nothing. And worse yet, they could find Luthen's mole.
Luthen with a heavy heart chooses to not inform Kreegyr and convinces Saw to stay out of it in order to have Kreegyr fail, because doing exactly that means the Empire will feel invincible. The Empire will think there is no leak in security, because they succeeded after all. It gives Luthen and Saw free reign to continue to play the long game against the Empire.
All warfare is based on deception.
Luthen's mole is the equivalent to the Enigma machine. One has to use such an asset in such a way that the enemy don't suspect their secrets has been spilled. Both Luthen and Alan Turing knew this perfectly well.
1:02 😫
USE THE TIME STONE, Dr Strange!!! Use it!!
In the grand calculus of the war, their sacrifice means more than their lives.
"Our job is to win the war". And what a tough job it can be.
That is cold man
FYI: In reality, Hilton had no such brother, and decisions about when and whether to use data from Ultra intelligence were made at much higher administrative levels.
Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imitation_Game#Historical_events
That is war man
Virgin enigma enthusiasts vs Chad enigma enjoyer.
This is why he did what he did in The Watchmen.
So if they kept it a secret, how did they use it to win the war? Did they organize a full on singular assault or something?
Did this breakthrough lead to D-Day?
In this case, the Germans know the convoy's there and they know its course and are planning an attack which is due to occur within the hour. If the convoy suddenly changes course right before the attack, it looks suspicious. Too suspicious.
However, Bletchley Park knew the movements of the Wolfpacks and they knew their reports of sighting Allied convoys. Convoys that hadn't been located could be steered away from the Wolfpacks. They could also arrange for spotter planes to locate U-boats they already knew about so that the Germans would think the plane did the discovering; not that their position was already known. Vital convoys could be protected while less important groups would be left to make contact with the enemy; sacrificial lambs as it were. Although the toll escorts took on U-boats meant that the Germans never had an overwhelming victory.
On land, if you knew an attack was coming you couldn't have the troops making sudden extensive defensive preparations. But you could prepare a response to be waiting behind the lines, ready to counterattack. This would then look like an intelligence failure on the Germans part; failing to locate the enemy's reserves.
In the case of Operation Citadel; everyone knew the Germans were planning to attack the Kursk salient. The Soviets knew the attack coming. The Germans knew the Soviets knew and were making huge preparations for it. It was an obvious target.
What the Germans didn't know was that between British and Soviet intelligence, the USSR knew more about the Wehrmacht forces preparing for the attack than the German generals did. They knew which armies would take part, which divisions constituted those armies, how many tanks and guns they possessed; everything. This allowed the Soviets to tailor their defences to the coming attack. Conversely, as the Germans lacked this kind of extensive intelligence; they had no idea the Soviets had amassed a reserve force of over a million men, ready to counterattack if it looked like the Germans were going to break through the Kursk defences.
I don't like this scene. It makes everyone except Allan seem like an idiot, which is certainly not the case.
You need emotions and drama and to give the answers to the viewers so they can feel and understand too. Alot of people would have been like: WTF! Emotions or Not
the guy transcribing would have known after 5 letters that it worked, but he looks at the final message as though he was transcribing in his sleep and just woke up. That is a necessary part of the scene, you need to allow a little theatre.
I actually think it paints the others in a good light as it shows their thought was not winning the war it was the value of 500 plus civilian lives that could be saved
Why would they be idiots?
Jonabank mate their right I mean what can they do if the Germans found out that they broken the Engima code, they would have change the Code and would 2 years would be all for nothing
A real life Mr. Spock.
More like Kahn.
Okay, the previews of other videos at the end in the boxes. You can't click them. What's the game?
"We've done that. Now for the hard part..."
Many of these tough decisions had to be made. The Coventry Blitz was one them. The city was sacrificed even though long before Churchill knew it was going to be attacked
Not true. They didn’t know the location.
This is a great movie overall you really should watch it if you haven’t
i don’t think saving one should would lead to the conclusion that enigma was cracked
It still would raise suspicion. And they really couldn't afford that.
We all know this (wonderful) "problem" ran all the way up the chain of command to Churchill. Even he and his advisors had to be extremely careful in their reaction(s) not to let on because of ULTRA information. That kind of situation certainly has the potential to tear an individual in two...weighing lives, ethics, secrecy and the overarching good of sometimes doing...nothing.
Wait, did stuff like this really happen? I'm not talking about Turing's team making big decisions, but about not using intel to prevent raising suspicions? Did it happen?
I sometimes think AI will be like Turing 😂
What song?
Seriously, all up the ship, tell them to attack some random place in the ocean and tada.
If you're seriously suggesting they should've done that then you're just as idiotic as the people who had Alan Turing sentenced for being a homosexual
amazing
To avoid suspicion after Enigma was broke, the Allies can only take action on 5% or so of the messages intercepted. Does anyone know of publications, articles that explain this tactic of reacting to only some of the messages so that the opponent (Germans in this case) doesn't realize they need to abandon (Enigma).
Look up Bombing of Coventry, Battle of Britain.
Many people sacrificed their lives in the war. Just as many gave their souls.
While I like the scene making suck decision is beyond the scope of what they did at Bletchley Park, Turing didnt decide on which information was acted the admiralty and war offices did. SO yes this discussion would have taken place it just wouldnt have taken place at Bletchley Park between these people
The tricky part they dont show that one of the scientist's brother was on the convoy
It would have made more senses if the chess master made this decision
I have a hard time believing this decision was being made by a bunch of mathematicians.
I have a question. Couldn't they have saved everyone, and then when the Nazis redesigned their enigma machine, they could have beaten that redesigned enigma machine with the Turing machine? It wouldn't have been a waste of two years work, because the Turing machine got built, and they knew that they don't have to figure out every word to beat the enigma machine.
Well thinking of the possibility of the machine itself might be a factor but good question
Dont know if you noticed, but the whole point of redesining enigma is to make whatever method the allies used to crack the code obsolete. Them saving the convoy would have resulted in all their work being pointless.
i imagine the Germans would create more settings or change the design of enigma. Such a small change could render Turing’s machine pointless because he built it based on the original enigma machine and only got it to work when he found out that he should use Heil Hitler. The germans were EXTREMELY paranoid like get your children to snitch on you paranoid, if a convoy somehow managed to avoid a high skilled U-Boat everyone would ask questions and immediately change the machine. While 500 lives is a large number of people to be sacrificing you have to remember that this is war. Something that will cost lives and depends on strategy, in the end saving 500 lives couldn’t be justified when the machine could be used to save thousands and win the war
Unless they build a new machine that doesn't work on the computer. The Brits made a Type X machine that was like a more sophisticated enigma. The Germans never cracked.
@@nsn757 considering the Brits killed thousands of French civilians to prepare for D Day, this was nothing in the eyes of the decision makers
For dramatic effect, the movie departs from history in some scenes. In reality, the code breakers would not have made this decision. Intercepted messages would have been passed up their chain of command. The people at the top would have made the decisions about how to handle that information.
I don't know whether the Allies decided to let Axis submarines attack a convoy or not. But, in reality, such decisions were made. In one case, a message was decrypted to reveal the Germans were planning an attack on factory in England. To protect the secret that Enigma code had been broken, nothing was done to stop or resist the attack, or to protect the workers.
I can only imagine the heartache of making those kinds of deicisions. Knowing what the Germans were planning and letting them happen to that you can stop the big ones
Frankly, with a 20 minute window, even if they got the word out help wouldnt arrive in time. I know they said planes are 10 minutes away but this is 1940s tech, communication wasnt that quick, it would have to go through multiple stations before ever reaching the pilots.
And thats assuming anyone believed that they cracked enigma since at this point in the movie they hadnt reported it yet
look and listen - then think carefully !
I expected Ozymandias to keep a cooler head.
What about the men on the convoy? 😅
Germans: make enigma code
Americans: *calls the Navaho*
So they found a way to cheat in battle ship nice
It's easy to do the right thing, when there's no cost.
This scene actually presents things as MORE dire than they actually were. While probably this immediate convoy would have to be sacrificed, the scene seems to imply that they'll have to be similarly judicious about it for the entire war. But in reality, the British were able to make it look like they were getting their Weirdly Accurate Intelligence from conventional means: scouting, cloak and dagger intelligence operations, vigilance, and so on. This, combined with German Military Intelligence being a goddamn joke, meant that the Nazis were never able to keep their communications encrypted for very long, and the Allies could use their intelligence gained from cracking Enigma much more aggressively.
Man was a hero .
These situations are always hard. But if you just imagine they didn't break Enigma at that moment, that convoy was going to be destroyed anyway. So Alan was right, even if it was a difficult decision.
"If God's on our side, who's on theirs?"
Ego? Oh yeah, that's right: it's always ego that has someone saying "God is on our side," either their own or the egos of those who are witnessing the statement and have some power over the one who announces it.
This - for that is intrested is the meaning of, TOP SECRET.