To my mechanic eye it does not look like over heating. Overheating is usually going to have some grey ash like appearance as the piston gets to critical heat it will start flaking and the melt will be more plastic where it fails, this looks more mechanical. It has a huge amount of carbon build up as if the oil control ring has been not doing its just so well and perhaps that build up as started to foul the ring land and cause jamming of the ring resulting in eventual failure around the top of the land, any mechanical failure up top is going to end up down the side resulting on scoring of the skirt and bore.
Another theory I have is that maybe the injector got stuck open at some point and dumped in more fuel than needed. Some unburned fuel got below the piston top and around the ring, and eventually detonated on the next compression stroke. That would explain the upwards blown melted metal, and the skirt on the same side being scored very deep. We are investigating all possibilities.
well we learn from failure .. so hopefully it gets better .. im rooting for youre r3 superbike .. r3 owner here from the Philippines ... good luck .. and ride safe ..
Looking at your picture, of the melted piston-If it peels from the compression ring its timing detonation, correct? Air fuel might be right on the money, Radiator and cooling port mod- by increasing its volume might help, I do not think it will be enough long term. Thanks for sharing and allowing us to follow
Hao959 Not necessarily. 4 things can cause the Piston to look like that / end up that way. Air / Fuel Ratio Carbon Build Up Overheating Excessive Friction I think the direction they're planning to go in with the second build should more or less cure the issues. I noticed the Skirts on that Piston were not Teflon Coated, maybe I didn't pay enough attention, but it seemed that way to me.
KSIXRIDER the springs did not come out of spec in the time they had in service but we replaced them anyway. This time we are shimming the valves a bit more to preload the springs just a little bit. Should help with the float and slap on closing
saw the odometer flashing oil.. usually when the oil meter flashes its telling you to change oil.. you probably thought it just had to be reset correct? and now your engine is seized lol
The oil flashing message pertains to oil change interval which we don't follow. Low oil pressure switch turns on a different control light that has nothing to do with the LCD display. Congratulations....you solved a big mystery we couldn't figure out.
I like when Space-X blows up a rocket, they call it a rapid unscheduled disassembly. Sorry to hear that the motor decided that the wanted to schedule a disassembly ahead of expectation. That's racing on the cutting edge for you. Refine and try again.
One day someone will challenge Matt at The Workshop using facts or answering the points he makes - I look forward to that day - it should be really enlightening.
I'm assuming a water methanol injection setup really isn't congruent with a bike like this. Too much weight and complexity, along with an additional task during pitting (topping off the tank). Would that be correct?
smith jones I designed a methanol injection system for a turbo BMW a while ago. In a car, especially boosted, meth injection is a pretty good way to get a cooler and denser charge into the combustion chamber. On an NA bike I think the system's bulk and cumbersomeness nullifies its benefits.
Coollino HD first thing never sell it. Stock up spares, change engine oil and oil filter every 2500 Kms and most important never let anyone else ride it.
Coollino HD Keep on top of the Oil Change Intervals and replace the coolant with a Waterless Coolant. Check the Engine and surrounding components / pipes / hoses, anything that looks like it has seen better days, start replacing sooner rather than later. Treat it with love and respect.
I've heard people say if we put a bigger radiator it puts load on the water pump and ruins it. So I too thought to put a slightly bigger radiator but dropped the idea. Did this work for you ?
At least you have a nice set of desk ornaments with a winning story. Stuff happens. I might anodize the piston as well, a cold/hard anodize might be worth doing. I'd dimple the intake ports/runners and probably slightly dimple the valves too.
Atleast it wasnt the r1 and now we know why your building these bike price people its cheaper and just as much fun cuz it literally cost your house to go racing with anything 600 or bigger
Unfutunately similar to the Moto2 motors (CBR600rr) the Alusil cylinders are like butter compared to Nikasil. We can great success when we atarted getting the OEM piston skirts coated.
KSIXRIDER see, these are comments I can get excited about answering....thank you. We will try the nikasil approach and find out if we blow it up again. I think it will be fine. r6's spin up to 16k and they're fine with nikasil
Your bike died and you took first. Jesus how many seconds of lead did you have? The piston ring melting......oof. I'm surprised about the cooling system not having independent loops for each cyclinder tho. You sometimes hear about how air cooled Harleys doesn't have enough cooling in the back cyclinder because of poor airflow, surprised to see something similar play out in Watercooled engines.
You'll measure at most a few degrees C difference between the two cylinders. Water's thermal conductivity is too high to be saturated by a single cylinder. Have a look at ceramic coating instead to better contain the heat inside the cylinder: ua-cam.com/video/7AczhknPIPk/v-deo.html
![Assessing the Damage on our R3 Supebike Motor [Superbike Build Series Ep.21]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7ezkDG6dbOg/mqdefault.jpg)
![Assessing the Damage on our R3 Supebike Motor [Superbike Build Series Ep.21]](/img/tr.png)
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Respect. A lot of places would try hiding this at all costs. Things happen, and this is how progress it made. Love following along this series.
This is what research and development is. And I am grateful that you made us a part of this great journey.
To my mechanic eye it does not look like over heating.
Overheating is usually going to have some grey ash like appearance as the piston gets to critical heat it will start flaking and the melt will be more plastic where it fails, this looks more mechanical.
It has a huge amount of carbon build up as if the oil control ring has been not doing its just so well and perhaps that build up as started to foul the ring land and cause jamming of the ring resulting in eventual failure around the top of the land, any mechanical failure up top is going to end up down the side resulting on scoring of the skirt and bore.
Another theory I have is that maybe the injector got stuck open at some point and dumped in more fuel than needed. Some unburned fuel got below the piston top and around the ring, and eventually detonated on the next compression stroke. That would explain the upwards blown melted metal, and the skirt on the same side being scored very deep. We are investigating all possibilities.
well we learn from failure .. so hopefully it gets better .. im rooting for youre r3 superbike .. r3 owner here from the Philippines ... good luck .. and ride safe ..
Congratulations on the win. Hopefully soon it'll be up and running!
Sorry to hear about the motor, but excellent explanation. Hope the rebuild goes well.
Looking at your picture, of the melted piston-If it peels
from the compression ring its timing detonation, correct? Air fuel might be
right on the money, Radiator and cooling port mod- by increasing its volume might help, I do
not think it will be enough long term. Thanks for sharing and allowing us to
follow
Hao959
Not necessarily.
4 things can cause the Piston to look like that / end up that way.
Air / Fuel Ratio
Carbon Build Up
Overheating
Excessive Friction
I think the direction they're planning to go in with the second build should more or less cure the issues.
I noticed the Skirts on that Piston were not Teflon Coated, maybe I didn't pay enough attention, but it seemed that way to me.
How tight are you going to go with the squish?
KSIXRIDER for the next version of the motor we took 15 thou off the head and using a 10 thou gasket
KSIXRIDER this setup still leaves 0.055 clearance on a cold, static motor
I'm ready to see it. And numbers.
Sorry to hear. Awesome series.
Look into WPC treatment for all moving internals. I'm not sure if you can add oil squirters for each cylinder on the block. Good luck!
It would be interesting to see the vavle spring pressure after several races
KSIXRIDER the springs did not come out of spec in the time they had in service but we replaced them anyway. This time we are shimming the valves a bit more to preload the springs just a little bit. Should help with the float and slap on closing
top speed on straights before it blew up? its still stock bore size when it melted right? I've been following ever since. this is really good stuff
128mph/206kph. We kept stock bore throughout the project.
All the best again.
wonder how long the oil light was flashing before it blew up
It wasn't flashing at all
saw the odometer flashing oil.. usually when the oil meter flashes its telling you to change oil.. you probably thought it just had to be reset correct? and now your engine is seized lol
The oil flashing message pertains to oil change interval which we don't follow. Low oil pressure switch turns on a different control light that has nothing to do with the LCD display. Congratulations....you solved a big mystery we couldn't figure out.
Yamaha uses DiASil on R3
well.. look at the bright side, season 2 has just being confirmed
I like when Space-X blows up a rocket, they call it a rapid unscheduled disassembly.
Sorry to hear that the motor decided that the wanted to schedule a disassembly ahead of expectation. That's racing on the cutting edge for you. Refine and try again.
Happened to me and my zx6r somewhat. Valve #4 made contact with the piston, fuses together, and rod shattered. Leaving nasty hole in the wall.
Good luck guys
One day someone will challenge Matt at The Workshop using facts or answering the points he makes - I look forward to that day - it should be really enlightening.
I'm assuming a water methanol injection setup really isn't congruent with a bike like this. Too much weight and complexity, along with an additional task during pitting (topping off the tank). Would that be correct?
smith jones I designed a methanol injection system for a turbo BMW a while ago. In a car, especially boosted, meth injection is a pretty good way to get a cooler and denser charge into the combustion chamber. On an NA bike I think the system's bulk and cumbersomeness nullifies its benefits.
I have an FZR 1992 and i want it to last for alot longer any tips?
Coollino HD first thing never sell it. Stock up spares, change engine oil and oil filter every 2500 Kms and most important never let anyone else ride it.
Coollino HD
Keep on top of the Oil Change Intervals and replace the coolant with a Waterless Coolant.
Check the Engine and surrounding components / pipes / hoses, anything that looks like it has seen better days, start replacing sooner rather than later.
Treat it with love and respect.
So funny watching Matt pointing out how clueless you are😂 Oh,and the Yamaha R3 is hardly a superbike. Just thought i`d point that out for you
Can the coolent ports be bored out 3-5 mm bigger
They can but faster flow doesn't necessarily translate to more heat scrubbing in convection.
Why not try a nikasil ?
We did Nikasil the cylinders after that first meltdown
The cooling system is not at fault. As long as water temp is good. Its got to be air fuel or timing related.
I've heard people say if we put a bigger radiator it puts load on the water pump and ruins it. So I too thought to put a slightly bigger radiator but dropped the idea. Did this work for you ?
See the problem is your to awsome.quick question y not a ktm just curious.
Hope the triple t is budget friendly
Depends what you consider budget friendly. A lot of engineering time, machining, and testing time went into making them.
Bro use oil cooler on r3 next time r3 build i think oil temperature get too hot
Just use an old school 250cc inline 4 instead :P
Blew up the Piston and still made it first..
I built in enough of a gap to make it but it was close
Check your ring end gap.
Ring gap issue would be my guess.
Just use forged pistons next time.
We do use forged pistons
I think the oil squiter failed.
At least you have a nice set of desk ornaments with a winning story. Stuff happens. I might anodize the piston as well, a cold/hard anodize might be worth doing. I'd dimple the intake ports/runners and probably slightly dimple the valves too.
Atleast it wasnt the r1 and now we know why your building these bike price people its cheaper and just as much fun cuz it literally cost your house to go racing with anything 600 or bigger
Lagian dibubut 😂😂
Unfutunately similar to the Moto2 motors (CBR600rr) the Alusil cylinders are like butter compared to Nikasil. We can great success when we atarted getting the OEM piston skirts coated.
KSIXRIDER see, these are comments I can get excited about answering....thank you. We will try the nikasil approach and find out if we blow it up again. I think it will be fine. r6's spin up to 16k and they're fine with nikasil
Your bike died and you took first. Jesus how many seconds of lead did you have?
The piston ring melting......oof. I'm surprised about the cooling system not having independent loops for each cyclinder tho. You sometimes hear about how air cooled Harleys doesn't have enough cooling in the back cyclinder because of poor airflow, surprised to see something similar play out in Watercooled engines.
You'll measure at most a few degrees C difference between the two cylinders. Water's thermal conductivity is too high to be saturated by a single cylinder. Have a look at ceramic coating instead to better contain the heat inside the cylinder: ua-cam.com/video/7AczhknPIPk/v-deo.html
if you aint blowing shit up your not trying
Tough on that little motor to keep it running when it was obviously running rough. It may not have been so damaged on a pull down.
Should've bought an R6
And why is that?
Cryoheat...
Yamaha went to cheap on the r3