TNG began at the close of an era when the Federation and Starfleet had been "fat, dumb and happy" for several decades. That's all that really needs to be said.
At the beginning of Next Gen, there were basically 0 threats to the Federation. The Klingons had been "allies" for a couple decades and no one had seen the Romulans in half a century or more. Based on the average age of security personnel seen on the show, none of them were old enough to have experience beyond the occasional medical emergency. I mean, they didn't even have modern police level experience since crime was basically nonexistant, especially aboard a starship. So they may have been trained extremely well, but it's still no substitute for practical experience.
@@1337penguinman And yet, there were worlds like Tasha Yar's homeworld that were dangerous, chaotic places. Fat, dumb, happy and willfully blind does describe the federation rather well. They THOUGHT nothing could harm them and so became inept.
@@mikeh.8912 A border skirmish, at best. This isn't to downplay the intensity of the battles that were fought, or the brutality of same, but Starfleet could certainly have crushed Cardassia - but would have had to dedicate the resources and approach the matter like a war, instead of a diplomatic issue with regrettable use of force, to be regretted and dealt with with as little force used as possible. Cardassia was in no way a neer-peer adversary, Starfleet just didn't want to take the gloves off.
@@jarowan it was bad enough that a man who would go on to be one of the best engineers in Starfleet was on the ground fighting and had to kill people to survive, one that ended in a rather pathetic excuse for a victory, since the Federation made a lot of concessions and all they got was maybe a few strip-mined worlds
I feel strongly that one of Voyagers writing faults was the fact security never adapted to their situation, even the inclusion of additional technology to help internally defend the ship. Elite Force for example
I would at least like to see someone put on some body armor. You can replicate anything with enough space material. Star Fleet vessels get into some form of firefight every other month. DISCO put body armor on their away crews, they had that right at least. Can even add some treknobabble on why it works.
@@Daginni1 And the idea of body armor and PPE carried over into SNW. At least it can be explained as in our modern productions, they have the budget and materials to make such costumes where as even in the 90s and early 2000s, nobody would have even considered expanding the budget to do it.
There's also the bit that Voyager's computers kept getting locked out by EVERYONE. The ship's cook, aliens you've never met... sure, they'll keep you from your own systems...
@@travispotthoff6131 I wonder if the computer had a keyboard combination like "Windows+L" to make it easy to lock the computer and a "CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+DELETE+WINDOWS+~" combination to unlock it.
@@darkhighwayman1757 I think that mainly came down to political and cultural reasons. Starfleet always insisted it wasn't a military organization, even though it clearly was. It might have made more sense if, like in Enterprise, there was an actual Military alongside Starfleet. But as far as we've seen since then, the Federation had no official military whatsoever.
In the moments in Star Trek where security personnel seems less than stellar, that's where scripts are written by people who dont know a damnd thing about basic security tactics. It's the writer's fault. They write them as inept to make jeopardy happen. Unless the ailen of the week have superpowers they'll generally have the upper hand.
The writers didn't design the weapons, the lack of armor, lack of night vision, or FLIR for away teams. Look at a hand phaser, it's going to be an almost impossible to aim weapon. Armor to stop a phaser blast shouldn't be that hard to make, we know that the vision enhancements existed, we had a blind crew member who could see on TNG, why couldn't there away teams have light enhancers or FLIR we have that tech now.
@@ricardoospina5970 Clunky phaser designs were pretty endemic from TNG era, (I think the props department gradually improved em, I actually really like the shiny Nemesis ones, ) but I presume there must be some kind of virtual sighting involved in the things, as much as I believe in point-shooting. The utility of armor seems pretty debatable in some ways, but it appears those thick jackets for Dominion War ground forces were about as effective or ineffective as what Klingons and Cardassians sported, particularly when it comes to energy weapons. Certainly, at least, you'd expect phaser rifles to have specialized tricorder/targeting sights, though. Which I guess is implied by what they had on Voyager.
Another thing is the security aka police on Navy ships are all enlisted. The head of security is the Master at Arms a Chief Petty Officer or higher but never an officer. Then again Star Trek apart from DS9 tended to ignore Ratings.
24th century Starfleet mentality " you'll run out of ammo before we run out of people " in the early federation security was trained to combat/eliminate threats, gather intelligence and secure facilities. The body count was so high due to the bizarre encounters with unknown species that had absurd abilities. By Picard era Starfleet security was trained to DIFFUSE situations or contain threats till diplomatic solution was found and over relied on technosorcery to Mcguffin everything they come across.
A good reflection of this is the Strange New Worlds Episode All Those Who Wander when the crew of Enterprise must rescue a downed Starship while fighting off a super aggressive alien race(think of the movie Aliens), there was no negotiation these things wanted nothing more to kill and eat you, they needed to end the treat by any means necessary
In my mind, the issue sems to be the whole 'non-violence' viewpoint of the Federation. If you were looking to create a good security service within Starfleet at the founding of the Federation it would have made the most sense to put people like the MAKO teams into a security force and expand on their training systems as a basis for upcoming recruits so that they get all the combat skills along with everything else that they need to know about within the fleet. The Andorians would also have made good candidates for this job with their militaristic outlook and the fact that they had already had to look at what people in this kind of post needed to know. The Federation in universe has a tendancy to forget the phrase 'if you wish for peace, prepare for war' and as such always seem to start off on the back foot when they encounter any serious opposition.
Thing is they often don't do nonviolence well either at least groups that practice nonviolent intervention or other things like actually prepared for people to be violent
@@thodan467 Well, in the days of sail that so influenced Star Trek in other ways, ship security was provided by the Marine detail, whose main job was to be snipers in a close combat and to support boarding actions. US and Royal Navies and most others. Indeed, into the 20th century ship security was done by marines. Maybe still. I could see Starfleet wanting to separate the combat and shipboard security roles, but then they should have given them more diverse training and maybe kept some MACO around for landing parties in certain denied areas.
The out of universe answer is that Star Trek was often written by people who knew nothing about the police or military. The exchange: "Would you not aim that at me?" "Safety is on." (quoted from memory, it was the episode where visited Empok Nor to search spare parts for Deep Space 9) could have only been written by somebody who never held a gun.
You’re very correct about security being more competent in the earlier timeline. I have a few examples from Star Trek Enterprise. When they’re boarding the cloaked suliban ship, the crew are tossing stun grenades into corridors and hallways to clear out the suliban soldiers. Very effective when fighting a numerically superior force. Also, there are a couple of times when Malcolm shows more tactical ingenuity than later starfleet security officers. In one episode when he’s helping the crew retake the ship, he’s walking down a hallway, and quickly hugs the wall when he hears footsteps, then pursues his foes when the coast is clear. Future security officers would just walk right into the line of fire. Also, at one point, Malcolm’s rifle is shot, literally, and he throws it at his attacker before engaging him in hand to hand. He even used his rifle like a club against a borg drone and stunned it! (Granted, the drone was busy trying to infect another security officer, but still.) And the MACO’s. The gigachad’s of starfleet security. Nuff said. And here’s something i’ve noticed. When Malcolm goes on his first alien ship, he breaks out the rifles before Archer tells him otherwise. Starfleet security would beam down with mere pistols in the 24th century! That’s like bringing a .22 handgun against an AK rifle. And in strange new worlds, when they beam down into a hostile situation, they’re armed to the teeth, and wear body armor for heaven’s sake. How and why did starfleet security fall so far?
I once heard a comment or a line from an episode. "We may have forgotten how to wage war, but we kept really good notes." I think this exemplifies the progress Starfleet sees in the Dominion war. Going from a peacekeeping Armada to a naval force in just the first few years of the Dominion war.
@@rossdax47 To be fair to Worf. Picard always countermaned and shot down every good security suggestion Worf gave. Like all of them. Sisko at least let Worf be Worf. Thus ending the Worf effect for good.
Except for making the ludicrous unforced error of _pulling off a tagout_ on a turbolift Mariner was working on. You **DO NOT DO THAT.** He should have gotten his ears scorched by the captain.
if starfleet attached a platoon of marines on board... well a lot of security issues would be pretty much negated. or on a galaxy class starship you could probably station an entire company of marines.
Most science fiction universes that you read about in print have Marines serving aboard ships and space stations. On planetary surfaces you’d have the Army and Aerospace Forces with their own military police and security forces. That’s not even mentioning special forces. Starfleet forgot all of that. I think one of the most telling moments of Starfleet’s ineffectiveness was when Earth (Terra) was under effective martial law in DS9 for all of two episodes. All they did was deploy Starfleet security personnel with phaser rifles. No personal armor (not even riot shields), no heavy weapons, no grenades, no vehicles of any kind that I could see, and I don’t think the personnel even carried their own water or rations. For a force that was expected to be in the field for more than a few days they were woefully under-equipped.
@@IncredibleMD well to be fair those are civilians families of the starfleet officers under his command. The enterprise d was supposed to go in to deep deep space but never happened they always just stayed close to federation space
@@joeswanson733 Which is why it's weird that they were never removed, even as the Enterprise became increasingly engaged in combat throughout the run of TNG.
A parallels to this can be seen in the US Air Force. When radar supersonic missiles became reliable we thought that there was no need for dog fighting skills so we stopped training pilots for it. Then during Vietnam we started running into extremely maneuverable Soviet fighters that forced us to relearn an art we had thought obsolete.
Selection Bias? The situations where security worked smoothly were to boring to make episodes from. The times Starfleet Security executed perfectly, shut down the threat in 5 minutes leave 55 minutes of dead time in the episode.
Security shuts down the threat in 5 minutes, that sounds just about right for the into to an episode. The FALLOUT from security doing their jobs (Say the diplomatic incident that was caused by them catching an alien representative doing something dangerous in the name of espionage) would easily fill the rest of an episode. :)
The writers all grew up cushy too...........so their ability to write security, war, tactics, or even a basic fist fight was always laughable. Casting wasn't much better. "Best trained security in the sector" yet not a bicep or ab among them lol.
Hmm. Yes, maybe. It's just we were a little young back then, and here we are pondering about the obvious flaws. No wonder my parents didn't like tng, for them kirk, spock, McCoy and expendable ensigns? 😅
Interesting how you equated them to mall cops. I however thought hotel/office security. Their function was primarily to observe and report anyone deemed to be a problem (not necessarily a threat) but also as they patrol the ship, any problems the ship itself might have and then have it addressed by engineering.
I will point out that a lot of quote unquote Mall Cops are US Combat Veterans. Some of us with PTSD. So people should not poke fun at them. Half of them can snap said joker in half.
One of the quotes I think of defining of starfleet was "[...] those Starfleet engineers that can turn rocks into replicators" (paraphrasing a bit) explains the organisation pretty well. It's not about the leadership, nor the soldiers, but the engineers. Ultimately, starfleet is a space university of technology with extra steps. Research, engineering and informatics, these are the bomb-diggity.
I can think of a few things that would help. 1) Face the bloody door you're guarding. 2) Check corners before you go around them. I mean couldn't you have a alien scanner tricorder setting thingy? You'd not even have to look around them. 3) Ditch the wrist throws 4) Would it be possible to switch hand weapons off from the bridge? I think they cold detect weapons discharge on internal sensors. I mean joking aside there's no excuse for it. They have a holodeck they could be running three simulations a week, they could even have a pain setting where the phasers sting a lot but don't injure, that wakes you up. The only think I could think of there is you could argue the computer would not think like a person and if you simulations don't evolve (and they do according to Yarr) you could get stuck into pedicable senarios. Also instruder drills, get someone who knows the ship layout to run the rest of the crew ragged for an afternoon, like Odo did in DS9. Drill drill drill. But yes there's no real reason to be shit, other than so the plot could happen, and they were shit. Joko Wilik had always said that a police force should spend 20% of their time training, and with holodecks and what have you I can't see any reson even more time could be spent on drills, de escalation, learning how to get a kingon to back down without losing face, that sor of thing. I mean I could see what they were doing wrong and I was like in the reseves for 2 years or something and I was bad at it, no telling what a professional security would make of it.
Great video and happy you gave respect to Red Shirts of the TOS era when you have super powered beings like Vul, Nomad, Gary Mitchell, the Horta, Apollo, and the Vampire Cloud, I don't know how tough you can be on security when anyone of those could cause instant death. Vs TNG era where you had those but rarely did they encounter similar beings as frequently more often you had Klingons, Romulans, Ferengi, Jem Hidar, and the Borg, while some are stronger than others instant death wasn't a given when dealing with these races.
Mall Cop sums it up well. It's the same mentality that put families on a ship that was routinely sent to the untamed and unknown frontier. My theory is complacency. They took the mentality of working security in a utopia to the stars and died in the droves. That said, I do love how the real world eccentricities and influence wielded by creators has combined to form a subtext/through-line in terms of the development of Starfleet from season 1 of TNG to DS9 and season 1 of Picard.
@@thodan467 Wow that's insane! In the context of Star Trek though, it's perfectly in keeping with the attitudes of Starfleet and their handling of the Maquis. Sisko's line from that episode always comes to mind.
@@aer0planejelly911 armies did the same, the reducing armies to military personnel with a few non military specialists is a very modern development . A roman imperial Legion had 100s of slaves as support personnel Even today families could be problematic, destroying relationships and breaking families, Even roman imperial legions dared not to break up relationships and families if it could be avoided. Those ships were not war ships they were well armed explorer ships and many civilians on board were there for scientific reasons and i expect administrative and diplomatic also Picard was ordered to hold scintific symposiums and conferences on board. yes you may put x 1000 additional people on board besides crew, but the reason was never pur military - that was rather coincidence
The irony being that in the time of TNG Starfleet security had the greatest training tool ever¹ - *the Holodeck.* With that you could become a experienced combat veteran without ever actually being in a real battle, and you could get _personalised_ instruction from the best of the best. Want to learn how to fight in hand to hand, here's Holo Bruce Lee, a couple of World champion MMA coaches and Military HTH trainers from throughout history, giving you their undivided attention. And if the safety protocols are tweaked a little so that you can get minor injuries (that can be healed in a minute with the wonder medicine of the 24th century) then you'll be the best that you possibly could be. And then there's armed combat that's so realistic you can't tell it apart, except from the fact that when you get killed you're not actually dead - a very useful learning tool as you can learn from your _fatal_ mistakes. Why wouldn't people who want to work in security utilise this? Even if only recreationally. If it existed now, all the military wannabes would be fighting in realistic Sims, it would even be the ultimate in gaming for civilians. Holodecks revolutionise teaching and skill training and practice … that could be the explanation as to why many Starfleet personal appear to be Renaissance 'Men' with a wide range of skills. How many serving military can also be talented ballerinas and violinist, and competent at engineering when they are not in engineering (everyone can do maintenance?). Dr Crusher was a top Doctor, a research scientist with expertise in solar shielding technology, a tap dancer, a soldier (she could shoot and do Roundhouse kicks), and also a single mother with a gifted child, and she did classical theatre as a hobby. That's time management skills that even Palpatine would be envious of. ¹ The only possible better training tool would be direct uploading of skills a la Matrix.
_"With that you could become a experienced combat veteran without ever actually being in a real battle"_ Well that's true, upto a point. But it also might breed a sense of apathy, "Eh I mean I can't die who cares lol."
I'd use it for sure. Even if I was not a security person. But one point: Holodeck safeties would obviously be on enough to prevent actually fatal injuries. But when training security forces they should make simulated fatalities *hurt a LOT* . So that the trainees don't just get used to getting killed and not dying.
The trouble with trek security is the same with every department, the people use the 1% of any of the techs obvious uses. No stun grenades, no holographic tech anywhere beyond entertainment rooms, no actual armour, DATA firing phasers and missing because they duck, no built in stunners in corridors to help disabling intruders, the guns are the most stupid shape for the hand and most basically fighting is either Pile onto intruder or throw to the ground, no punching or kicking.
I'd love it if they brought MACO back to Star Trek. We see so often humans admiring skills of the Vulcans or other races, but what about our skills? Humans are damn good at war, it's been our species' greatest curse. But in a more dangerous Trek universe, lost arts of special forces could be really valuable and I'd love to see an episode where humans reteach the Federation how to properly fight. Reminds me of the Stargate episode where SG-1 was showing the difference between terrorizing the enemy and killing the enemy.
The thing I never understood was how ineffective Starship vessels were at counter intrusion. No one way forceshields, no automated turrets, no barricades that only Federation personnel could activate. Just slightly rounded corners with no cover..
They had everything they needed to deal with any normal intruder, but they didn’t use it. Just seal off the section they’re in with forcefields and pump it full of knockout gas or if that doesn’t work, remove the atmosphere until they pass out.
Unless they are wearing a spacesuit, blowing holes in a spaceship will kill the attacker as fast as the crew. Unless they are like Species 8472 or the Borg, who can live in open space. Plus transporters should have security scanners to prevent them from boarding that way.
It's something that could have been a little more focused on by the writers. For example, a Star Trek RPG (classic era) had a little story about the son of a Federation Ambassador that got kidnapped on a planet that had applied for membership and some people were against it. The local law enforcement did not want to get involved because they recently botched the rescue of a kidnapped victim. So the Ambassador called the next Starfleet ship for help, they put a team together for this rescue, did build a mock-up set of the hideout based on data from the local government, did a few training runs, rescued the son and discovered that the kidnappers were working with the Orions and were smuggling technological advanced tech that would have collapsed the local economy. Boarding a pirate ship could have been something else to show, maybe one that has just caught and is still attached to a large freighter. Who is freighter crew? Who is a pirate? Is the frighter from the Tal Shiar, the Orions or someone else? And so on. So much could and can still be done told here.
While focused on the Maquis, I think Sisko's rant to Kira about saint in paradise is a good primer on the problems with Starfleet and the Federation's internal and external security enforcement problems during "the Golden age"
A few thoughts: The Voyager: Elite Force PC game dealt with the need for advanced security in a compelling way. I also wish Voyager had presented Janeway as a bit more concerned with acquiring advanced defensive and offensive technology. They usually solved problems with more of a “what can we do with what we have” approach. I would have enjoyed seeing Janeway actively acquiring additional combat craft for support or integrating additional Delta Quadrant technologies into the ship (beyond what they sometimes did with the Borg.) To me, Tuvok is an ideal example of a security officer: he’s trained in starship tactics, martial arts, and criminal investigation. I always wanted an “Investigator Tuvok” spinoff. They probably used mostly human extras for budgetary reasons in TNG, but what would make sense to me “in universe” would be to see more security staff from combative species such as Andorians in security roles. To me that seems like the perfect way to integrate more aggressive or suspicious species into Starfleet: as security, tactical, and investigative staff. How many times did the Enterprise-D crew have to solve a murder? I would think that dedicated criminal investigator roles would have been a huge asset instead of lumping them under defense. To me, it would make sense to have separate chiefs or sub-chiefs devoted to those functions. Same with legal services, which frequently fell under Picard’s diplomatic purview. Those would’ve been great elements. The Enterprise-D had the space and facilities for those departments, too. Check out the “unseen Enterprise-D” to get a sense of how decked out that ship was.
Don't forget the Horta Have a team of Horta Security guards give a boarding party of Borg an "acid bath" & see etched in the deck plates "assimilate this !"
One thing that always bothered me was why armoured vehicles are not seen in trek, despite a shielded multi purpose vehicle with weapons would be in exploration. In addition to do during the dominion war where a infantry fighting vehicles might be in demand.
@@chukwudiilozue9171 it's just seems to me that an armoured ground vehicle would be use planetary defence since we only see infantry used. It would be nigh unstoppable on a battle field
Good vid. This matches up what I always believed in my "head canon" as to why Section 31 needed to exist, especially "off the books" as it did. The Federation/Starfleet knew that "Starfleet Intelligence" has some SERIOUS limitations, and there needed to exist an organization like Section 31, to fill in the gaps. An entity such as the Federation just can't rely on blind luck and tribbles to weed out security risks and (Klingon) spies ("The Trouble With Tribbles") as a sustainable "security model".
I always wondered the same thing. Even if you consider how overall pacifistic star fleet in TNG tends to be, they’re almost always on the verge of some war somewhere. Klingons and Romulans in particular. Add in the Orions and there’s a case to be made for decent security that can fight. But they didn’t do it until the Dominion War and only after how many people died?
I think the last episode of Strange New Worlds references this shift during Pike's era. While wanting to avoid any reference the Klingon War in Discovery is understood, Pike realizing that a more aggressive captain (like Kirk) was going to have to lead the Enterprise in the future for the Federation to survive in dealing with the Romulans of that time is a canon event that supports the militarist (Kirk) vs diplomatic (Pike) duality that existed in the Federation and should have been referenced in the conclusion.
Star Trek was a major influence on what I DID NOT want my fleet to be like in my own sci-fi property. First off, it is a Navy. Military AF. Marines on every ship. With the exception of a fleet of ships designed specifically for science and exploration, the bulk of the navy is comprised of WARSHIPS. Now, diplomacy is an important skill in that world. They won't start a fight, they'll try to handle things diplomatically at first. However, if the other guy insists on a fight and starts one, my guys will damn sure finish it. When possible, heavily classified information is hand delivered. No reliance on long range communications unless it's the only option. In the story the enemy learns of a couple of new ship types by running into them in combat because there was no intel to intercept on them. They were... Secret... Meh. I still love Trek even through all of its flaws. I still smile when I see the name Enterprise on the hull of a ship.
I think a good fit based on a real world unit would be USAF Pararesuce. Having a unit that specialises in search and rescue in hostile environments would be invaluable to away teams but at the same time be trained to bring force to bare when absolutely necessary. This would allow star fleet to maintain its principles increase flexibility aboard starships and bases
I always laughed when Ops was told to lock someone out of whatever it was, and inevitably the captain was told "I can't". And all aliens seem to know how to use the Trek ships' systems.
Firstly, when talking about federation warriors I'd separate Kirk (and by extension all Starfleet captains and bridge command officers) from Starfleet security personnel. The skillset required for ship to ship combat, however rare that was during the golden era, was conplealty different to the skillset required of security personnel who'd theoretically be more likely to engage in hand to hand combat/phaser fights. That being said the relative peace of the federation was the main factor in Starfleet securities failings. During times of peace military doctring funds itself in a situation where no one knows what the next threat will be, nor how to combat them. As such they train in methods that they think the next potential war/conflict will take which, almost always, shows shortcomings of a year or two if you are the forces on the defensive side. By the golden era conflicts the major conflicts had been boarder skirmishes with lesser powers where casualties hadn't been that high (compared to earlier Klingon and romulan wars). Federation ship superiority had overwhelmed other forces, with even a young captain Picard of the USS Stargazer getting a battle manager named after himself. Hand to hand fighting/boots in the ground had not been that much of a factor, and even when it had been it was small teams being beamed in. So when Tasha says that Starfleet security was the best of the best she isn't lying. However the problems showed themselves when Starfleet security was attacked from within (caught unawares), such as with the Klingons aboard the 1701-D, or when they found themselves in a situation out of their control, as I'd assume they would have been trained to believe that they would always be the ones in control of a situation not vice versa. Another problem they tended to have is maintaining personnel: O'Brian was security initially before transfering to engineering. As a result of this individuals from other division would need to be transferred to security to make up the divisions losses (such as word being transferred from command to security following Tasha's death, of Sisko being transferred from engineering to operations before he later transferred to command). As mentioned before, the problem with this is that a bridge command officer, or a science Division etc. Might be the best in their division when the red alert battle stations klackson comes on... But they're not "first fighters", so transfering new personnel from one division to another to fill in the gaps just doesn't work - it also has the other negative side effect of weekending the other divisions in their own abilities. As Picard said after Q introduced the to the borg, the federation did need to be humbled to realise how inept they were in certain areas. And whilst I do agree that combat is only a small purview of the duties of a starship captain the difference between riker saying it and Piccard is that Picard was, by the standards of the golden era, a battle vetraned captain (think about it, battle bridge he brings down O'Brian the enterprises only other battle vetran as opposed to young worf who calls himself a warrior in season 1, but is still fresh) whilst riker was, mutiny assides, green. Also, I do like your choice of clips from TNG season 1 with the Klingons as that episodes was showing Klingons who were on the run from the empire because they thought the empire was becoming soft and weak - so by the standards of the KDF of the time these guys were zealots / battle junkies (also highlights that the Klingons solved their weakening defences by having another civil war... Although I think the topic of the fall and then rise-but-filled-with-political-manioulations of the golden era Klingon defence forces during the golden era would also be a nice sister video to this one.
I really like this video, but I wish it had been at least three times longer. I'd enjoy seeing your analysis of security era-by-era in greater depth (including the TOS movie era "don't call me tiny"). We could also have a "character focus" segment, where key figures can be explored as either exemplars or exceptions in security (e.g., Reed, Hayes, Garrovick, Yar, Worf, Tuvok, Shaxs). Another idea would be to compare security in Star Trek to security in other SF franchises. Babyon 5 comes readily to mind, of course.
This why I like elite force from GOG. Someone finally said we need people for combat with special training and equipment. In the manual it even states members had certain expertises in demolition, technology, infiltration, marksmanship, and more.
"Starfleet has the best training and most effective security forces." That's a pretty easy claim when Starfleet security is the only force equipped with weapons that have 20,000 settings. Tech is definitely a crutch for Starfleet.
@@mikehendon7327 I'm just saying that when she makes those comments the confrontations she's using as her "evidence" involve Starfleet being wayyyyy overequipped for the fight. Like taking a battleship against a barely-working gunboat and attributing your victory to skill.
@@mikehendon7327 that tar river would have gone through a battailon of Valerian Marines with the same ease. to really fight it you needed 2nd Stage Lensman
Makes you wonder about the training, I assume in Kirk's academy days, it was more like ROTC and basic for military, but come Picard's time, I feel it was more like college with self-defense classes.
If you look at the United States Navy at the beginning of World War II you will see how years of peacetime can erode combat efficiency. The same goes for the Royal Navy before WW I. In both cases, one's administrative skill, ability to run a tight, clean, efficient ship, and respect for the rules and regulations were the prized attributes. When war broke out, it very quickly became evident that creativity, initiative, aggressiveness, and the ability to improvise on the fly were what was needed, as well as a good understanding of the principle of calculated risk. Unfortunately, the British never quite found their fighting admirals in WW I, whereas the US was lucky to have Admirals like Halsey, Spruance, and Fletcher (yes I said Fletcher. Fight me!) who knew how to win battles. Still, the USN paid a heavy price early on because it did not have capable admirals and captains. The early naval battles around Guadalcanal are prime examples of it, as well as Pearl Harbor. Extending this to Trek, you can see how negotiators like Picard and Pike don't necessarily make the best combat commanders. Kirk actually was both a savvy negotiator and a tactician. Riker was also good a good tactician, and it's a wonder they didn't give him his own command during the Dominion War. Sisko was the right man at the right point in history. Janeway would have been good if she'd been around for the war; she knew when to put up a fight and she would never give up. You could make a case that the reasoning given for Pike's Enterprise to sit out the Klingon War; that is, to preserve the best of the Federation if it came to it, might have applied to Picard as well. Maybe they thought that Pike and Picard were the best chance to reform the Federation government in the wake of disaster? (Which, by extension, would make them the Adama of Starfleet, but I digress).
Honestly, I think Security should wear some kind of armor. Like, flexible padded vests made of titanium cotton polymer (don't know if that's the right phrase, I suck at science) that would make bladed weapons a non-issue, at least. And helmets.
The issue I see with SF Security is: You can train someone for 100 years in Martial Arts/Weapon play....but you leave them with no armour and a command that tells them they're there for peace and security only and they're going to lose against anyone armoured and trained for x/y situations. You dont put a bombardier in a CQC situation in a confined space and expect them to win.
The starship's technological edge precluding the Security guys seeing much action shouldn't be a factor for a society with infinite resources: even if the security guys never actually have to repel boarders or raid a hostile ship or facility themselves, they can still spend hours every day running through holodeck sims of the battle of space-Guadalcanal to keep themselves sharp. Since that's not what we see, though, I'm inclined to agree with Lore's conclusion here - that Starfleet as an organization just didn't really see the point in the role anymore. That almost certainly led to mission creep in what they expected Security personnel to do. So, instead of focusing on their role as space-deployed elite infantry, they trained as navigators, helmsmen, weapons officers, engineering techs, and any number of other roles - with a minor side gig of occasionally carrying a phaser and having been trained in combatives a bit here and there. After all, the Security role should be a non-issue if they do their other job properly, right? This is wrongheaded, of course: when things get rough, infantry is the arm of RESTRAINT. They're who you go to when you need to secure a target _without_ leveling the city it's in from orbit. Boots on the ground what you use to go down there, find the target, and deal with it while minimizing collateral damage.
One of the clips that you showed is _exactly_ why we think they seem to be inept: Tasha Yar: "...There is no one more physically trained than those in Starfleet - Eepecially in _Security_ people." Note she said "Security" people - _not_ the "Armed Forces" (or the Star Trek equivalent). They are definitely the best trained _security_ force in the area. What's another word for security? Police. Even when you look at the phaser rifles they sometimes use, they are the equivalent of the police carrying M4 carbines for major situations. And the closest they get to a SWAT team is some of the more Elite units you see during the Dominion War. But we _never_ hear about armored vehicles (in Alpha Canon, anyway), and we almost _never_ see Starfleet security using military tactics or strategies, or using highly lethal weapons, or heavy weapons. We often see them pairing up against the Jem'Hadar and Klingons, and we can immediately see the difference in their performance, as those two species use a fully military industrial complex, training, and tactics. Heck, consider the crippling losses to Starfleet Navy faced against fixed space orbital weapons, which is something Starfleet almost never used (and _certainly_ not at the lethality that could instantly penetrate the shields off of and cut deeply into the Galaxy Class USS Galaxy in that battle). Back before the Starfleet years, as shown in the Star Trek Enterprise series, we see the MACO's. They have the proper rigging, low visibility uniforms, and high-powered weapons of a proper military fighting force. In fact, in the show, they were treated as the real-life US Marines on board US Navy ships. So yes, Tasha Yar said it right - they are the best _security_ force in the quadrant. But a security force can't defend against a proper _military_ force.
true, Kirk was a warrior. remember though, there are great examples of Kirk brokering for peace, and then even when that failed, found ways through cunning and witt to minimize loss of life on all sides in many incidents where he had to use force. like an orbital stun bombardment. so, I say Kirk had the head of a pacifist with the heart of a warrior. as any Starfleet Captain he was against the wanton destruction of life, but when need arose, he wouldn't hesitate to do what must be done.
A Warrior is simply someone ready to take on the fight. Not nesscarliy 100% of the time advocating for war instead of peace...That would be a Warmonger/Warlord. Also the very intention of the Warrior to fight is to ensure the protection of their cause, ideals, beliefs, faction, people etc. They're fighting so that one day or even today (other) people can live in peace. That's even what the Sec 31 agent tried to convince Bashir with...We're breaking/bending the rules so you don't have to and to ensure that those rules exist in the first place. Kirk is someone that would've understood that clearly. Your actions are to ensure ideals come afterwards. What the generation of Picard forgot is that violence and hostility aren't inherently wrong, that some have to sacrifice their ideals or even lives for the greater good of all, that the fight is never truly over there is no such thing as an universal peace to existence there is always another threat or challenge lurking both from within and without...So you need to be prepared for anything. Picard's generation simply got lazy and forgot that No the Federation isn't a god nor can they dictate how reality works nor are they 100% pacifistic nor should they be as that can be just as disadvantageous as extremely war-like...To get where they were and to remain so they must be something in-between and adaptable. Both diplomats and cowboys, the idealists and pragmatists, the warriors and scholars are needed...All play a role in charting the way to progress and stability. If someone truly loves the Federation they will find a way for these differing opinions to unionize and maintain their ideals while also willing to subvert or convert them when needed.
It’s pretty interesting/ironic that Riker said that about combat training with the Hathaway, but then ended-up being very competent at combat on the Titan.
When talking about security you also got to include computing systems, like people get abducted and nobody knows till someone asked the computer where is so and so. The computer should 100% know when any members of the crew or passengers are not accounted for, or if someone is there that shouldn’t be. Hell the computer should also have a registry of all objects, including the hull and anything coming into contact with the ship externally. Not to mention the whole why does the transporter not catch things being beamed on with others etc.
I don't think Kirk was the exception in Starfleet Captains of his era. He was exceptional in that he was the best at being a Starfleet Captain. But we see evidence in Commodore Decker that Starfleet of the 23rd century knew its primary mission was to protect the Federation. As that protection seemed to be guaranteed after the disappearance of the Romulans and the explosion of Praxis Starfleet security became lax. By the time the Galaxy class was launched Starfleet security couldn't even convince the rest of the admiralty not to put families on starships.
Starfleet Security was at its best during the fourth season of DS9 when Captain Sisko took control of Starfleet Security on Earth…and his friends attempted a military coup against the Federation.
Putting aside the good points brought out in the video in the context of the universe, there is i think the RL fact that Star Trek was intended to be a show where the humans and aliens of the Federation would use a pacifist approach to resolve most of the conflicts. That's why I prefer the Orville in that regard because even if they eventually find the smart way to save the day, the security and military forces are holding up and give time to the rest of the crew to "figure it out peacefully".
A completely fair and even kind evaluation of the STARFLEET's lacking capacity...to be, secure. I too, would have too many suggestions for improvement in the offensive and defensive capacity of personnel and ships/ stations
The bridge for instance. Looks cool as heck but it's a fish in a barrel situation. Someone can step off the elevator with a phaser and take everyone out quick and easy. There needs to be more cover. Just saying.
Starfleet basically decided that they had the biggest ships and the strongest weapons. Why train soldiers when no one can get that close to you? Then the Borg and Dominion happens.
The Siege of AR-558 is another good example of what is wrong with the Federations policies on ground combat. They've made progress, but they haven't regained enough lost technical experience.
This was definitely something that I always kind of fell out with about Star Trek. Especially during the Dominion War and on Voyager. In the Dominion War you see a clear need for Starfleet security to step up its game. You would think they would revamp and train their personnel to be able to actually fight. Voyager you would think that they would have adapted being that they were so far from the federation that they had to defend themselves from any number of threats. As far as the next generation was concerned it just was senseless that they were constantly defeated the way they were. Even in the best of times with as good of a history buff as Picard was you would think he would realize that. Not just him but Starfleet in general. Knowing that that is how Rome fell due to a weakening of its military as well as corruption.
I do really like how you point out this is actually quite logical and may even be intentional. Like Riker says, combat is only a tiny fraction of what Starfleet, even Starfleet Security, does. Why WOULD it be a huge focus in training when you have other things to worry about?
Starfleet was also a victim of their own technology. It got so good they thought they didn't need silly things like higher training and equipment for security, and then were less than willing to admit that view was wrong.
The truly frustrating thing is you'd think both the Vulcans and Andorians would require good states of readiness among the personnel whose job is literally "fight, defeat, and destroy threats that present themselves to your crew and the Federation". The Andorians had a very soldier-focused style of Warrior culture as we saw with Shran. Meanwhile the Vulcans would likely understand that violence might be distasteful, but it is occasionally necessary and thus it is only logical to be very adept in its use. After all, if you're capable of destroying an aggressor and they know it, they suddenly become more amenable to diplomacy.
They do the same thing with worf. Half the time he's this great warrior but any time they need to show the baddy of the week is tough. Bring out worf for some ass wuping.
I once heard about a redshirt getting into a firefight with a stormtrooper. The stormtrooper missed but the redshirt still died...please don't cancel me...
Of course there is the Siege of AR-558 if you want to see rough ground troopers in star trek uniforms. O'Brien also had a lot of war experience against the Kardis. And then there was his former captain who liked to sing war songs.
You are correct. Because of a lack of need for adequate security forces, it would ultimately become stagnant and weak. And although this is a bit out of universe, a similar thing happened in star wars, where the galactic republic got so large it disbanded its entire military shy of local planetary security forces. It was because the republic became so powerful, there just wasn't a need for it. In fact, I think something similar is also going on in the real world right now because of Pax Americana, because we have been at peace for so long, military strength and capability is starting to weaken. It's especially bad with our current leadership, with general Milley being somewhat comparable to general McClellan.
I remembered a little history snippet I saw on the F4 Phantom, as it's first generation lacked an onboard canon for dogfighting. Why? Because this new generation of pilots were suppose to engage enemies out of sight through the use of long range tracked missiles. Dog fighting would be the thing of the past...till pilots found themselves needing to while engaging MiGs over Vietnam. F4 pilots couldn't get too close because their missiles needed time to engage and track, too far and they'd be outmaneuvered, and no gun option. So later iterations of the Phantom would included a gun pod, then build-in canons after, and dog fighting was back in the training regiment. A change in tactics and doctrine that was meant to remove a very basic skill thinking it to be obsolete. It would be like removing the need to train ground troops in hand to hand combat because their guns can shoot at longer ranges more accurately.
The early security needed trigger guards on their phasers to avoid a negligent discharge. Sailors are trained to fight, but for real combat you need Marines.
The quote you are looking for is from the Man-Kzin Wars series of books by Larry Niven. It starts by stating that Humans had proven too effective at war for their own good. They decided to pacify themselves as a result. Eventually they encountered an existential threat from an aggressive alien species, forcing them to change back.
It goes like this: A alien vessel is spotted, some which has never seen before build by a unknown species and culture. You dock there, overwhelm they well trained security without much effort, then take the elevator to the bridge. The captain and security officer make a last stand but are overwhelmed or threatened. Then you sit down in the chairs, adjust they slice, play your favorite music and drive your new ship (which you have never seen before) around as you please. 2 weeks later the ships programs start to work against you and were chased of by a few hidden survivors of the crew. That's starfleet security for you.
The "mall cops" comparison was fair for TNG. I laughed. Enterprise D at the time was essentially a family cruise ship that did science and exploration. And if you've ever been on a cruise ship, about the only differences are that one wears short pants, and the other carries a phaser.
A major issue is, Starfleet security can handle a lot of serious issues, like a hostile on board, without needing to send the security forces at all. Turn on the force fields, fuck with life support, transport someone inside out, etc. You don't need to have Ensign Ricky with the least ergonomic weapon ever designed get within stabbing range of a hostile Klingon. The tech they bring to bear against an outside threat is formidable, but someone boards their ship and the best they can do is dispatch the 24th century equivalent of mall cops. If they took a hostile boarding party half as seriously as a radiation leak a boarding action against a functional starship would be a death sentence.
2160s Starfleet security: kills every enemy with the help of MACOs 2260s: they do the dying for the rest of the crew 2360s: less useful that a Romulan at an AA meeting
I always liked the idea of the "Elite Forces" model from the game. A team or multiple teams trained in advanced tactics with rifles, advanced defensive tech, and more kill than stun mentality. For a bar fight in 10 Forward, let regular security handle it. Ship is about to be boarded by hostile aliens, send out the Elite Forces ready to kill. Beaming down to Betazed for a slightly tense meeting, bring regular security. Making sure a site is safe for the captain to beam down to negotiate between two hostile factions, send the Elite Forces. Also let's talk weapons and tactics. We know force fields exist and can stop some weapons temporarily. Mobile cover should be a thing. With advanced computing we need these guys with automatic turrets that can identify friend and foe fire as soon as your enemy is out of cover. Shuttle have phasers. In very low orbit above every hostile situation a shuttle waits way out of sight and when called on lays down death from above. Without really adding anything tech wise there could be a lot done to strengthen the armed response of the Federation. Not saying nuke everything from orbit all the time, but sometimes you need to hit it hard and fast with a well trained team with only one goal, neutralize the threat.
20 minutes tops. Of course, that's because my MACO teams wouldn't be dumb enough to use turbolifts that can be shut down from the bridge. They'd use the secondary corridors and maintenance access ways. Hit the engine room. Seal the hatches. Shut down power to the bridge. It's hard to regain control of your ship if nothing works, isn't it?
Roddenberry was adamant that Star Fleet Security was not a Star Fleet Marine Corps. It was intended to be more like Masters-at-Arms and Shore Patrol. But that came into effect later after TOS. "Devil in the Dark" showed the Enterprise's Security Detachment lead by a Full Commander, I guy equal in Rank to Spock, the 2IC. Whoever wrote that might have been thinking of it as a Battalion Landing Team embarked on a Carrier and Roddenberry and Coons either did not catch it (or agreed with it at the time).
Solving threats/issues on that kind of level would stop a lot of the plot to happen... if they are not solving issues on a diplomatic or creative science-y way it would be a boring ep of TNG... so yeah, let's put our barely trained/competent security person so Picard and co have to solve issues
@@LoreReloaded Maybe it was more the mandates from Those On High that nerfed the writers as opposed to the bullpen being so shallow. I would include Gene among the TOH, especially for TNG.
I've always wondered if at some point federation super science with holograms and replicators and so on couldn't make starfleet uniforms into some kind of super equipment. Uniforms that project shields for defence and exploration of hazardous environments, if not some super armoured threads for making personnel functionally invulnerable against any non-contemporary, gloves that can form holographic tools and weapons on demand, or simply project phaser bolts at a whim. They have their badges with this micro technology, so why not the full uniform? Link them in with their ships replicators and transporters to give them anything and everything they might need whenever it is needed. Project holograms to hide yourself, or create holo klingons to fight for you, or even host your hologrpahic friends as you travel around. Replicate drones or shelters when down on planets, or create armours and hardened suits when conditions change. Have the clothes be made of programmable matter that once expended can be teleported back to the ship and refreshed as needed to keep you going with all the water and food you might need. It seems so bizarre to me that the signature uniforms they wear are all so primitive in comparison, especially if they aren't wearing klingon style body army or nasa space suits! Think of the lives saved when your workstation explodes but your dress uniform projects an emergency tungsten weave over you just as the blast arrives, saving your life even if it doesn't fully stop it. A properly equipped federation uniform should make you look like a god, flicking your wrists and changing the world around you.
For all those saying “Starfleet needs to put marines aboard their starships”: the US Navy doesn’t use Marines for shipboard security anymore; they use Masters-at-Arms, a Navy rating (the Navy’s equivalent of an MOS); which would be the equivalent of Starfleet’s Security. Based on my personal observations, Masters-at-Arms are, as a rule, quite capable of providing shipboard security. The (in universe) solution isn’t putting ‘marines’ aboard starships, it’s to update and improve Starfleet Security’s training. The _actual_ solution, of course, is better writing.
From the tv show points of view, I would say that DS9 had the best security due to situation it was in. Oddly enough, head of security wasn't a part of Starfleet. Now if you considered the many star trek novels that have been written over last 30 to 50 years, security was a lot more competent. Chekov even became Sulu's second-in-command due to his extensive security background, which includes black-op missions and intelligence missions. Worf was a lot more hands on in missions including parachuting into combat, which Worf found to be extremely exhilarating, when the Enterprise was helping out an interesting warrior species. I would say television did a lot to make starfleet security look incompetent. I sorry about not mention the titles of said books but I'm pushing fifty and I've been reading Star Trek, Star Wars, Buck Rodgers and sci-fi novels since the eight grade. There no way I can remember the titles.
I think it was a mistake that the Federation dissolved the MACOs. Just like the United States embassy to be able to secure the structure. In the same fashion you can have for a Federation ship. Which most were used for science, medical, political and exploration. You can have maybe a squad or two of MACOs, of course depending on the size of the ship to always be stationed. Avoid having a ship full of them to prevent any military direction. Also instilling the prime directive of defense rather than attack. Examples JDF ( Japanese Defense Force).
If Starfleet Security is going to rely on technological superiority, they really need to use their technology better. Personal shields, like in STO, would be GREAT for storytelling purposes in Star Trek series, because now you can have more shots fired that actually hit or graze the protagonists, and still have them flung around kinetically but say "the shields took the brunt of it." And you can use the same "my shield is down to 15%!" kind of thing for increased tension or to otherwise indicate that they can't keep Borg-ing their way through hails of phaser-fire. But give Starfleet that and leave the tougher races without it and you start to see reason for Starfleet training to be less lustrous than the physical might of the Klingons or the like. They also need to use their transporters to their advantage. "Internal sensors are offline" works fine for the times they don't want it to be that easy, but techno-babble up why they can't just beam the intruders to the brig, please. ("We're at warp and can't drop out" works, too, at least up until they finally developed internal site-to-site transport-at-warp technology. Not that that's even a problem for getting rid of an intruder bent on sabotaging the ship - lethal response is justified then, so beaming them into the void of space accidentally because you missed the brig is fine.)
In beta cannon, they had referenced the Starfleet Marine Corps aka Starfleets actual military being around during one of the Federation Klingon wars as well as other stuff in the 23rd century and was similar to the MACOs but was later dissolved in the early 24th century, so I'm guessing that during TNG Starfleet figured why would you put people through hardcore training only to put them as ship security and breakup much smaller disagreements, if they had kept them around they would've had literal years to expand their forces & improve military technologies coming from every member world to fight the Borg and the Dominion, then Starfleet would have been able to almost single handedly to take on the entirety of the Dominion, but Starfleet isn't a military organization, but it would make for a pretty good star trek series.
As much as we like to perceive Star Trek as 'hard' science fiction, and a vision of what humanity COULD become, it also embraces a few 'fantasy' elements that allow everything to actually exist in a manner similar to what Gene Roddenberry originally had in mind. In an 'ideal' universe, humans WOULDN'T need to focus much on combat, and would be able to negotiate peacefully with ANY other species they encountered, who would also be essentially 'peaceful' if they were also advanced enough technically (and hopefully socially) to achieve interstellar space travel.
I still think they should've kept a small MACO group that could be planetside most of the time, even in orbiting stations, and when needed increase there size for battles and war. Maybe have 2-3 one each ship to assist security during landing parties where there might be trouble. A lot of the technique training could be akin to taking martial arts today. After the Borg conflict in the best of both worlds increase the compliment to say 8-10. During Dominion war have a full compliment per ship. Afterwards the number would depend on the ship's mission and size but at least 12. It allows a special division just for military purposes while allowing security to focus on non military security concerns. Perhaps have a MACO bridge liaison officer who could take over if the CO & XO are disabled/killed.
You do realize that there is a much better explaination. Fiction not reality+Worf Effect. To establish things are a threat you say starfleet security is well trained and then show them being totally outclassed to establish that the baddies are strong. You didn't need that in the Dominion War because the Dominion was already shown to be strong so you got to see starfleet security operating as intended not that they got better because you didn't need to establish that the enemy is strong. Nor did you need it in Enterprise because Starfleet was new.
So first.. it’s called contextual criticism.. secondly.. battlestar galactica, Babylon 5 and many many more were able to do it.. the writers should do better
Larry Niven wrote in one of his books, the reason why man stoped fighting wars, was because we were so very very good at it. However I think the reason you think Starfleet security aren’t any good is the same reason people think storm troopers can’t shoot. If they portrayed them to be as good as they actually are the show would come to a very quick end.
I was always bothered about Picard's insistence that Starfleet wasn't a military organization. Because everything, to include the military / navy rank structure, and Starfleet literally fighting all the Federation's wars on its behalf, says otherwise. When something is flaring up, Starfleet sends a warship to check things out and settle things down, preferably. If they want to talk, they'll send one of their diplomats on one of Starfleet's warships. Sending a warship is a show of force, preferably to get people to back down and respect the Federation's power. Because sending something as powerful as a Constitution-class in TOS-era, or the even stronger, larger Galaxy-class of TNG era, is a show of force. "We come in peace, but check out all these phasers and photon torpedoes that your civilization is not close in equaling."
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If you need to know about Security, hit me up: I have over 10 years in the field
What if starfleet security was based on the real world un peacekeeper?
Don't tell me what to do.
@@christenorio9555
That hilarious and painfully truth
TNG began at the close of an era when the Federation and Starfleet had been "fat, dumb and happy" for several decades. That's all that really needs to be said.
At the beginning of Next Gen, there were basically 0 threats to the Federation. The Klingons had been "allies" for a couple decades and no one had seen the Romulans in half a century or more. Based on the average age of security personnel seen on the show, none of them were old enough to have experience beyond the occasional medical emergency. I mean, they didn't even have modern police level experience since crime was basically nonexistant, especially aboard a starship. So they may have been trained extremely well, but it's still no substitute for practical experience.
@@1337penguinman And yet, there were worlds like Tasha Yar's homeworld that were dangerous, chaotic places. Fat, dumb, happy and willfully blind does describe the federation rather well. They THOUGHT nothing could harm them and so became inept.
Wasn't there a somewhat recent Cardassian/Federation war? Though the series is a bit lax on details.
@@mikeh.8912 A border skirmish, at best. This isn't to downplay the intensity of the battles that were fought, or the brutality of same, but Starfleet could certainly have crushed Cardassia - but would have had to dedicate the resources and approach the matter like a war, instead of a diplomatic issue with regrettable use of force, to be regretted and dealt with with as little force used as possible. Cardassia was in no way a neer-peer adversary, Starfleet just didn't want to take the gloves off.
@@jarowan it was bad enough that a man who would go on to be one of the best engineers in Starfleet was on the ground fighting and had to kill people to survive, one that ended in a rather pathetic excuse for a victory, since the Federation made a lot of concessions and all they got was maybe a few strip-mined worlds
I feel strongly that one of Voyagers writing faults was the fact security never adapted to their situation, even the inclusion of additional technology to help internally defend the ship. Elite Force for example
I would at least like to see someone put on some body armor. You can replicate anything with enough space material. Star Fleet vessels get into some form of firefight every other month. DISCO put body armor on their away crews, they had that right at least. Can even add some treknobabble on why it works.
@@Daginni1 And the idea of body armor and PPE carried over into SNW. At least it can be explained as in our modern productions, they have the budget and materials to make such costumes where as even in the 90s and early 2000s, nobody would have even considered expanding the budget to do it.
Year Of Hell was in two episodes what the show should have been over seven seasons.
There's also the bit that Voyager's computers kept getting locked out by EVERYONE. The ship's cook, aliens you've never met... sure, they'll keep you from your own systems...
@@travispotthoff6131 I wonder if the computer had a keyboard combination like "Windows+L" to make it easy to lock the computer and a "CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+DELETE+WINDOWS+~" combination to unlock it.
I always felt that StarFleet needed a Marine force for security onboard their ships and on their starbases.
Yeah, a government the size of the federation really needs such a thing
Enterprise for all its faults had the Maco and it made sense to me to have Marines on board.
@@darkhighwayman1757 I think that mainly came down to political and cultural reasons. Starfleet always insisted it wasn't a military organization, even though it clearly was. It might have made more sense if, like in Enterprise, there was an actual Military alongside Starfleet. But as far as we've seen since then, the Federation had no official military whatsoever.
I agree.
@@1337penguinman I agree.
In the moments in Star Trek where security personnel seems less than stellar, that's where scripts are written by people who dont know a damnd thing about basic security tactics. It's the writer's fault. They write them as inept to make jeopardy happen. Unless the ailen of the week have superpowers they'll generally have the upper hand.
They could have been written as better like we see in other media
We can agree that Sci writers aren't good candidates for West Point graduates, but they could employ a little more common sense.
The writers didn't design the weapons, the lack of armor, lack of night vision, or FLIR for away teams. Look at a hand phaser, it's going to be an almost impossible to aim weapon. Armor to stop a phaser blast shouldn't be that hard to make, we know that the vision enhancements existed, we had a blind crew member who could see on TNG, why couldn't there away teams have light enhancers or FLIR we have that tech now.
@@ricardoospina5970 Clunky phaser designs were pretty endemic from TNG era, (I think the props department gradually improved em, I actually really like the shiny Nemesis ones, ) but I presume there must be some kind of virtual sighting involved in the things, as much as I believe in point-shooting. The utility of armor seems pretty debatable in some ways, but it appears those thick jackets for Dominion War ground forces were about as effective or ineffective as what Klingons and Cardassians sported, particularly when it comes to energy weapons. Certainly, at least, you'd expect phaser rifles to have specialized tricorder/targeting sights, though. Which I guess is implied by what they had on Voyager.
Another thing is the security aka police on Navy ships are all enlisted. The head of security is the Master at Arms a Chief Petty Officer or higher but never an officer. Then again Star Trek apart from DS9 tended to ignore Ratings.
24th century Starfleet mentality " you'll run out of ammo before we run out of people "
in the early federation security was trained to combat/eliminate threats, gather intelligence and secure facilities. The body count was so high due to the bizarre encounters with unknown species that had absurd abilities. By Picard era Starfleet security was trained to DIFFUSE situations or contain threats till diplomatic solution was found and over relied on technosorcery to Mcguffin everything they come across.
A good reflection of this is the Strange New Worlds Episode All Those Who Wander when the crew of Enterprise must rescue a downed Starship while fighting off a super aggressive alien race(think of the movie Aliens), there was no negotiation these things wanted nothing more to kill and eat you, they needed to end the treat by any means necessary
In my mind, the issue sems to be the whole 'non-violence' viewpoint of the Federation. If you were looking to create a good security service within Starfleet at the founding of the Federation it would have made the most sense to put people like the MAKO teams into a security force and expand on their training systems as a basis for upcoming recruits so that they get all the combat skills along with everything else that they need to know about within the fleet. The Andorians would also have made good candidates for this job with their militaristic outlook and the fact that they had already had to look at what people in this kind of post needed to know. The Federation in universe has a tendancy to forget the phrase 'if you wish for peace, prepare for war' and as such always seem to start off on the back foot when they encounter any serious opposition.
Thing is they often don't do nonviolence well either at least groups that practice nonviolent intervention or other things like actually prepared for people to be violent
ship decurity are not commandos
@@thodan467 Well, in the days of sail that so influenced Star Trek in other ways, ship security was provided by the Marine detail, whose main job was to be snipers in a close combat and to support boarding actions. US and Royal Navies and most others. Indeed, into the 20th century ship security was done by marines. Maybe still. I could see Starfleet wanting to separate the combat and shipboard security roles, but then they should have given them more diverse training and maybe kept some MACO around for landing parties in certain denied areas.
It's actually spelt MACO, Military Assault Command Operations.
The out of universe answer is that Star Trek was often written by people who knew nothing about the police or military.
The exchange: "Would you not aim that at me?" "Safety is on." (quoted from memory, it was the episode where visited Empok Nor to search spare parts for Deep Space 9) could have only been written by somebody who never held a gun.
You’re very correct about security being more competent in the earlier timeline. I have a few examples from Star Trek Enterprise.
When they’re boarding the cloaked suliban ship, the crew are tossing stun grenades into corridors and hallways to clear out the suliban soldiers. Very effective when fighting a numerically superior force.
Also, there are a couple of times when Malcolm shows more tactical ingenuity than later starfleet security officers. In one episode when he’s helping the crew retake the ship, he’s walking down a hallway, and quickly hugs the wall when he hears footsteps, then pursues his foes when the coast is clear. Future security officers would just walk right into the line of fire.
Also, at one point, Malcolm’s rifle is shot, literally, and he throws it at his attacker before engaging him in hand to hand. He even used his rifle like a club against a borg drone and stunned it! (Granted, the drone was busy trying to infect another security officer, but still.)
And the MACO’s. The gigachad’s of starfleet security. Nuff said.
And here’s something i’ve noticed. When Malcolm goes on his first alien ship, he breaks out the rifles before Archer tells him otherwise. Starfleet security would beam down with mere pistols in the 24th century! That’s like bringing a .22 handgun against an AK rifle.
And in strange new worlds, when they beam down into a hostile situation, they’re armed to the teeth, and wear body armor for heaven’s sake. How and why did starfleet security fall so far?
I once heard a comment or a line from an episode. "We may have forgotten how to wage war, but we kept really good notes." I think this exemplifies the progress Starfleet sees in the Dominion war. Going from a peacekeeping Armada to a naval force in just the first few years of the Dominion war.
At least this changed after the Dominion War. Lt. Shaxs is an awesome security chief!
just like when they first met the borg whom could breach the ships shields and get on board easily to do whatever they wanted
Worf isn't fit to hold Shax's jumba stick!
@@rossdax47 To be fair to Worf. Picard always countermaned and shot down every good security suggestion Worf gave. Like all of them. Sisko at least let Worf be Worf. Thus ending the Worf effect for good.
Except for making the ludicrous unforced error of _pulling off a tagout_ on a turbolift Mariner was working on. You **DO NOT DO THAT.** He should have gotten his ears scorched by the captain.
Dont forget Odo
if starfleet attached a platoon of marines on board... well a lot of security issues would be pretty much negated. or on a galaxy class starship you could probably station an entire company of marines.
Most science fiction universes that you read about in print have Marines serving aboard ships and space stations. On planetary surfaces you’d have the Army and Aerospace Forces with their own military police and security forces. That’s not even mentioning special forces.
Starfleet forgot all of that. I think one of the most telling moments of Starfleet’s ineffectiveness was when Earth (Terra) was under effective martial law in DS9 for all of two episodes. All they did was deploy Starfleet security personnel with phaser rifles. No personal armor (not even riot shields), no heavy weapons, no grenades, no vehicles of any kind that I could see, and I don’t think the personnel even carried their own water or rations. For a force that was expected to be in the field for more than a few days they were woefully under-equipped.
A company of marines would probably be more useful than all the women and children onboard Picard's command.
@@IncredibleMD well to be fair those are civilians families of the starfleet officers under his command. The enterprise d was supposed to go in to deep deep space but never happened they always just stayed close to federation space
@@joeswanson733 Which is why it's weird that they were never removed, even as the Enterprise became increasingly engaged in combat throughout the run of TNG.
On a Galaxy Class ship, she could hold a battalion of at least 750 Marines, and have room to spare for transport assets.
A parallels to this can be seen in the US Air Force. When radar supersonic missiles became reliable we thought that there was no need for dog fighting skills so we stopped training pilots for it. Then during Vietnam we started running into extremely maneuverable Soviet fighters that forced us to relearn an art we had thought obsolete.
Selection Bias?
The situations where security worked smoothly were to boring to make episodes from. The times Starfleet Security executed perfectly, shut down the threat in 5 minutes leave 55 minutes of dead time in the episode.
Security shuts down the threat in 5 minutes, that sounds just about right for the into to an episode. The FALLOUT from security doing their jobs (Say the diplomatic incident that was caused by them catching an alien representative doing something dangerous in the name of espionage) would easily fill the rest of an episode. :)
@@s.scottstaten1852
Would also be a failure, violating diplomatic immunity is a casus belli
No, "Starfleet Security" was lacking because the show was on too small a budget to provide actors with proper hand to hand combat training 😄
The writers all grew up cushy too...........so their ability to write security, war, tactics, or even a basic fist fight was always laughable. Casting wasn't much better. "Best trained security in the sector" yet not a bicep or ab among them lol.
Hmm. Yes, maybe. It's just we were a little young back then, and here we are pondering about the obvious flaws.
No wonder my parents didn't like tng, for them kirk, spock, McCoy and expendable ensigns? 😅
Interesting how you equated them to mall cops. I however thought hotel/office security. Their function was primarily to observe and report anyone deemed to be a problem (not necessarily a threat) but also as they patrol the ship, any problems the ship itself might have and then have it addressed by engineering.
Oi, we have same last name, cousins or something.
Cheers! 🖖
I just realized that is probably why they group security and engineering departments together.
24th century security motto
" Don't fight them even when overpowered."
I will point out that a lot of quote unquote Mall Cops are US Combat Veterans. Some of us with PTSD. So people should not poke fun at them. Half of them can snap said joker in half.
@@GRIGGINS1
okay and that make you a liability not anything near the standard of professional police
One of the quotes I think of defining of starfleet was "[...] those Starfleet engineers that can turn rocks into replicators" (paraphrasing a bit) explains the organisation pretty well. It's not about the leadership, nor the soldiers, but the engineers. Ultimately, starfleet is a space university of technology with extra steps. Research, engineering and informatics, these are the bomb-diggity.
I can think of a few things that would help.
1) Face the bloody door you're guarding.
2) Check corners before you go around them. I mean couldn't you have a alien scanner tricorder setting thingy? You'd not even have to look around them.
3) Ditch the wrist throws
4) Would it be possible to switch hand weapons off from the bridge? I think they cold detect weapons discharge on internal sensors.
I mean joking aside there's no excuse for it. They have a holodeck they could be running three simulations a week, they could even have a pain setting where the phasers sting a lot but don't injure, that wakes you up. The only think I could think of there is you could argue the computer would not think like a person and if you simulations don't evolve (and they do according to Yarr) you could get stuck into pedicable senarios.
Also instruder drills, get someone who knows the ship layout to run the rest of the crew ragged for an afternoon, like Odo did in DS9. Drill drill drill.
But yes there's no real reason to be shit, other than so the plot could happen, and they were shit. Joko Wilik had always said that a police force should spend 20% of their time training, and with holodecks and what have you I can't see any reson even more time could be spent on drills, de escalation, learning how to get a kingon to back down without losing face, that sor of thing.
I mean I could see what they were doing wrong and I was like in the reseves for 2 years or something and I was bad at it, no telling what a professional security would make of it.
TNG era Starfleet Security was always fortunate that enemies didn't just come in blazing disintegrate settings on their weapons.
Great video and happy you gave respect to Red Shirts of the TOS era when you have super powered beings like Vul, Nomad, Gary Mitchell, the Horta, Apollo, and the Vampire Cloud, I don't know how tough you can be on security when anyone of those could cause instant death. Vs TNG era where you had those but rarely did they encounter similar beings as frequently more often you had Klingons, Romulans, Ferengi, Jem Hidar, and the Borg, while some are stronger than others instant death wasn't a given when dealing with these races.
Mall Cop sums it up well. It's the same mentality that put families on a ship that was routinely sent to the untamed and unknown frontier. My theory is complacency. They took the mentality of working security in a utopia to the stars and died in the droves. That said, I do love how the real world eccentricities and influence wielded by creators has combined to form a subtext/through-line in terms of the development of Starfleet from season 1 of TNG to DS9 and season 1 of Picard.
which the royal navy did regularly with ships sailing into war and combat
@@thodan467 Wow that's insane! In the context of Star Trek though, it's perfectly in keeping with the attitudes of Starfleet and their handling of the Maquis. Sisko's line from that episode always comes to mind.
@@aer0planejelly911
armies did the same, the reducing armies to military personnel with a few non military specialists is a very modern development .
A roman imperial Legion had 100s of slaves as support personnel
Even today families could be problematic, destroying relationships and breaking families,
Even roman imperial legions dared not to break up relationships and families if it could be avoided.
Those ships were not war ships they were well armed explorer ships and many civilians on board were there for scientific reasons and i expect administrative and diplomatic also
Picard was ordered to hold scintific symposiums and conferences on board.
yes you may put x 1000 additional people on board besides crew, but the reason was never pur military - that was rather coincidence
The irony being that in the time of TNG Starfleet security had the greatest training tool ever¹ - *the Holodeck.*
With that you could become a experienced combat veteran without ever actually being in a real battle, and you could get _personalised_ instruction from the best of the best.
Want to learn how to fight in hand to hand, here's Holo Bruce Lee, a couple of World champion MMA coaches and Military HTH trainers from throughout history, giving you their undivided attention. And if the safety protocols are tweaked a little so that you can get minor injuries (that can be healed in a minute with the wonder medicine of the 24th century) then you'll be the best that you possibly could be.
And then there's armed combat that's so realistic you can't tell it apart, except from the fact that when you get killed you're not actually dead - a very useful learning tool as you can learn from your _fatal_ mistakes.
Why wouldn't people who want to work in security utilise this? Even if only recreationally.
If it existed now, all the military wannabes would be fighting in realistic Sims, it would even be the ultimate in gaming for civilians.
Holodecks revolutionise teaching and skill training and practice … that could be the explanation as to why many Starfleet personal appear to be Renaissance 'Men' with a wide range of skills. How many serving military can also be talented ballerinas and violinist, and competent at engineering when they are not in engineering (everyone can do maintenance?). Dr Crusher was a top Doctor, a research scientist with expertise in solar shielding technology, a tap dancer, a soldier (she could shoot and do Roundhouse kicks), and also a single mother with a gifted child, and she did classical theatre as a hobby.
That's time management skills that even Palpatine would be envious of.
¹ The only possible better training tool would be direct uploading of skills a la Matrix.
_"With that you could become a experienced combat veteran without ever actually being in a real battle"_
Well that's true, upto a point.
But it also might breed a sense of apathy, "Eh I mean I can't die who cares lol."
@@hellacoorinna9995 That would be a problem for the training officer, to ensure that attitude didn't get entrenched.
I'd use it for sure. Even if I was not a security person.
But one point: Holodeck safeties would obviously be on enough to prevent actually fatal injuries. But when training security forces they should make simulated fatalities *hurt a LOT* . So that the trainees don't just get used to getting killed and not dying.
Bruce Lee maybe
but the MMA no way, better as nothing but real combat skills those lack
@@sundoga4961 True that
The trouble with trek security is the same with every department, the people use the 1% of any of the techs obvious uses. No stun grenades, no holographic tech anywhere beyond entertainment rooms, no actual armour, DATA firing phasers and missing because they duck, no built in stunners in corridors to help disabling intruders, the guns are the most stupid shape for the hand and most basically fighting is either Pile onto intruder or throw to the ground, no punching or kicking.
In TOS there was an anti-intruder gas system. Guess it ran out of plotonium.
Yo! Yo! Bring back the M.A.C.O.!
I was thinking the same thing! 🤣
I'd love it if they brought MACO back to Star Trek. We see so often humans admiring skills of the Vulcans or other races, but what about our skills? Humans are damn good at war, it's been our species' greatest curse. But in a more dangerous Trek universe, lost arts of special forces could be really valuable and I'd love to see an episode where humans reteach the Federation how to properly fight. Reminds me of the Stargate episode where SG-1 was showing the difference between terrorizing the enemy and killing the enemy.
Starfleet securities failures are partly due to the efficiency of Section 31 and partly the cause of Section 31 need to be efficient.
The thing I never understood was how ineffective Starship vessels were at counter intrusion. No one way forceshields, no automated turrets, no barricades that only Federation personnel could activate. Just slightly rounded corners with no cover..
They had everything they needed to deal with any normal intruder, but they didn’t use it. Just seal off the section they’re in with forcefields and pump it full of knockout gas or if that doesn’t work, remove the atmosphere until they pass out.
When someone with an AK-47 with a Grenade launcher attached to it comes on board they're going to have trouble.
Unless they are wearing a spacesuit, blowing holes in a spaceship will kill the attacker as fast as the crew. Unless they are like Species 8472 or the Borg, who can live in open space. Plus transporters should have security scanners to prevent them from boarding that way.
It's something that could have been a little more focused on by the writers.
For example, a Star Trek RPG (classic era) had a little story about the son of a Federation Ambassador that got kidnapped on a planet that had applied for membership and some people were against it. The local law enforcement did not want to get involved because they recently botched the rescue of a kidnapped victim. So the Ambassador called the next Starfleet ship for help, they put a team together for this rescue, did build a mock-up set of the hideout based on data from the local government, did a few training runs, rescued the son and discovered that the kidnappers were working with the Orions and were smuggling technological advanced tech that would have collapsed the local economy.
Boarding a pirate ship could have been something else to show, maybe one that has just caught and is still attached to a large freighter. Who is freighter crew? Who is a pirate? Is the frighter from the Tal Shiar, the Orions or someone else? And so on.
So much could and can still be done told here.
While focused on the Maquis, I think Sisko's rant to Kira about saint in paradise is a good primer on the problems with Starfleet and the Federation's internal and external security enforcement problems during "the Golden age"
A few thoughts:
The Voyager: Elite Force PC game dealt with the need for advanced security in a compelling way.
I also wish Voyager had presented Janeway as a bit more concerned with acquiring advanced defensive and offensive technology. They usually solved problems with more of a “what can we do with what we have” approach. I would have enjoyed seeing Janeway actively acquiring additional combat craft for support or integrating additional Delta Quadrant technologies into the ship (beyond what they sometimes did with the Borg.)
To me, Tuvok is an ideal example of a security officer: he’s trained in starship tactics, martial arts, and criminal investigation. I always wanted an “Investigator Tuvok” spinoff.
They probably used mostly human extras for budgetary reasons in TNG, but what would make sense to me “in universe” would be to see more security staff from combative species such as Andorians in security roles. To me that seems like the perfect way to integrate more aggressive or suspicious species into Starfleet: as security, tactical, and investigative staff. How many times did the Enterprise-D crew have to solve a murder? I would think that dedicated criminal investigator roles would have been a huge asset instead of lumping them under defense. To me, it would make sense to have separate chiefs or sub-chiefs devoted to those functions. Same with legal services, which frequently fell under Picard’s diplomatic purview. Those would’ve been great elements. The Enterprise-D had the space and facilities for those departments, too. Check out the “unseen Enterprise-D” to get a sense of how decked out that ship was.
As a starship captain, Picard definitely had some judicial authority over his crew.
@@crash406 Oh, for sure, and he’s in charge. But it seems like he could have benefitted from having a full time lawyer on the ship.
Don't forget the Horta
Have a team of Horta Security guards give a boarding party of Borg an "acid bath" & see etched in the deck plates "assimilate this !"
In all series whenever they say "Keep a transporter lock" I mumble to myself : "Like that's ever worked"
One thing that always bothered me was why armoured vehicles are not seen in trek, despite a shielded multi purpose vehicle with weapons would be in exploration. In addition to do during the dominion war where a infantry fighting vehicles might be in demand.
They just used the shuttlecrafts for better or worse.
@@chukwudiilozue9171 it's just seems to me that an armoured ground vehicle would be use planetary defence since we only see infantry used. It would be nigh unstoppable on a battle field
Good vid. This matches up what I always believed in my "head canon" as to why Section 31 needed to exist, especially "off the books" as it did. The Federation/Starfleet knew that "Starfleet Intelligence" has some SERIOUS limitations, and there needed to exist an organization like Section 31, to fill in the gaps. An entity such as the Federation just can't rely on blind luck and tribbles to weed out security risks and (Klingon) spies ("The Trouble With Tribbles") as a sustainable "security model".
I always wondered the same thing. Even if you consider how overall pacifistic star fleet in TNG tends to be, they’re almost always on the verge of some war somewhere. Klingons and Romulans in particular. Add in the Orions and there’s a case to be made for decent security that can fight. But they didn’t do it until the Dominion War and only after how many people died?
I think the last episode of Strange New Worlds references this shift during Pike's era. While wanting to avoid any reference the Klingon War in Discovery is understood, Pike realizing that a more aggressive captain (like Kirk) was going to have to lead the Enterprise in the future for the Federation to survive in dealing with the Romulans of that time is a canon event that supports the militarist (Kirk) vs diplomatic (Pike) duality that existed in the Federation and should have been referenced in the conclusion.
Pike served unusually long as captain of the Enterprise, 3 tours
Star Trek was a major influence on what I DID NOT want my fleet to be like in my own sci-fi property. First off, it is a Navy. Military AF. Marines on every ship. With the exception of a fleet of ships designed specifically for science and exploration, the bulk of the navy is comprised of WARSHIPS. Now, diplomacy is an important skill in that world. They won't start a fight, they'll try to handle things diplomatically at first. However, if the other guy insists on a fight and starts one, my guys will damn sure finish it. When possible, heavily classified information is hand delivered. No reliance on long range communications unless it's the only option. In the story the enemy learns of a couple of new ship types by running into them in combat because there was no intel to intercept on them. They were... Secret... Meh. I still love Trek even through all of its flaws. I still smile when I see the name Enterprise on the hull of a ship.
Remember Kirk's "Starfleet security" on Khan? Seal the doors and place one guard outside - yeah Kirk that'll hold him🤣
I think a good fit based on a real world unit would be USAF Pararesuce. Having a unit that specialises in search and rescue in hostile environments would be invaluable to away teams but at the same time be trained to bring force to bare when absolutely necessary.
This would allow star fleet to maintain its principles increase flexibility aboard starships and bases
I always laughed when Ops was told to lock someone out of whatever it was, and inevitably the captain was told "I can't". And all aliens seem to know how to use the Trek ships' systems.
Firstly, when talking about federation warriors I'd separate Kirk (and by extension all Starfleet captains and bridge command officers) from Starfleet security personnel. The skillset required for ship to ship combat, however rare that was during the golden era, was conplealty different to the skillset required of security personnel who'd theoretically be more likely to engage in hand to hand combat/phaser fights. That being said the relative peace of the federation was the main factor in Starfleet securities failings. During times of peace military doctring funds itself in a situation where no one knows what the next threat will be, nor how to combat them. As such they train in methods that they think the next potential war/conflict will take which, almost always, shows shortcomings of a year or two if you are the forces on the defensive side. By the golden era conflicts the major conflicts had been boarder skirmishes with lesser powers where casualties hadn't been that high (compared to earlier Klingon and romulan wars). Federation ship superiority had overwhelmed other forces, with even a young captain Picard of the USS Stargazer getting a battle manager named after himself. Hand to hand fighting/boots in the ground had not been that much of a factor, and even when it had been it was small teams being beamed in. So when Tasha says that Starfleet security was the best of the best she isn't lying. However the problems showed themselves when Starfleet security was attacked from within (caught unawares), such as with the Klingons aboard the 1701-D, or when they found themselves in a situation out of their control, as I'd assume they would have been trained to believe that they would always be the ones in control of a situation not vice versa. Another problem they tended to have is maintaining personnel: O'Brian was security initially before transfering to engineering. As a result of this individuals from other division would need to be transferred to security to make up the divisions losses (such as word being transferred from command to security following Tasha's death, of Sisko being transferred from engineering to operations before he later transferred to command). As mentioned before, the problem with this is that a bridge command officer, or a science Division etc. Might be the best in their division when the red alert battle stations klackson comes on... But they're not "first fighters", so transfering new personnel from one division to another to fill in the gaps just doesn't work - it also has the other negative side effect of weekending the other divisions in their own abilities.
As Picard said after Q introduced the to the borg, the federation did need to be humbled to realise how inept they were in certain areas. And whilst I do agree that combat is only a small purview of the duties of a starship captain the difference between riker saying it and Piccard is that Picard was, by the standards of the golden era, a battle vetraned captain (think about it, battle bridge he brings down O'Brian the enterprises only other battle vetran as opposed to young worf who calls himself a warrior in season 1, but is still fresh) whilst riker was, mutiny assides, green.
Also, I do like your choice of clips from TNG season 1 with the Klingons as that episodes was showing Klingons who were on the run from the empire because they thought the empire was becoming soft and weak - so by the standards of the KDF of the time these guys were zealots / battle junkies (also highlights that the Klingons solved their weakening defences by having another civil war... Although I think the topic of the fall and then rise-but-filled-with-political-manioulations of the golden era Klingon defence forces during the golden era would also be a nice sister video to this one.
I really like this video, but I wish it had been at least three times longer. I'd enjoy seeing your analysis of security era-by-era in greater depth (including the TOS movie era "don't call me tiny"). We could also have a "character focus" segment, where key figures can be explored as either exemplars or exceptions in security (e.g., Reed, Hayes, Garrovick, Yar, Worf, Tuvok, Shaxs). Another idea would be to compare security in Star Trek to security in other SF franchises. Babyon 5 comes readily to mind, of course.
This why I like elite force from GOG. Someone finally said we need people for combat with special training and equipment. In the manual it even states members had certain expertises in demolition, technology, infiltration, marksmanship, and more.
The most shocking part of this is that security was actually trained.
"Starfleet has the best training and most effective security forces." That's a pretty easy claim when Starfleet security is the only force equipped with weapons that have 20,000 settings. Tech is definitely a crutch for Starfleet.
Reminder that the person saying this was killed by an evil tar river. She is not a reliable narrator.
@@mikehendon7327 I'm just saying that when she makes those comments the confrontations she's using as her "evidence" involve Starfleet being wayyyyy overequipped for the fight. Like taking a battleship against a barely-working gunboat and attributing your victory to skill.
@@mikehendon7327
that tar river would have gone through a battailon of Valerian Marines with the same ease.
to really fight it you needed 2nd Stage Lensman
I’d imagine Klingon and Romulan disrupters could have an equivalent to “Stun” but culture and doctrine don’t have them on there.
Makes you wonder about the training, I assume in Kirk's academy days, it was more like ROTC and basic for military, but come Picard's time, I feel it was more like college with self-defense classes.
If you look at the United States Navy at the beginning of World War II you will see how years of peacetime can erode combat efficiency. The same goes for the Royal Navy before WW I. In both cases, one's administrative skill, ability to run a tight, clean, efficient ship, and respect for the rules and regulations were the prized attributes. When war broke out, it very quickly became evident that creativity, initiative, aggressiveness, and the ability to improvise on the fly were what was needed, as well as a good understanding of the principle of calculated risk. Unfortunately, the British never quite found their fighting admirals in WW I, whereas the US was lucky to have Admirals like Halsey, Spruance, and Fletcher (yes I said Fletcher. Fight me!) who knew how to win battles.
Still, the USN paid a heavy price early on because it did not have capable admirals and captains. The early naval battles around Guadalcanal are prime examples of it, as well as Pearl Harbor.
Extending this to Trek, you can see how negotiators like Picard and Pike don't necessarily make the best combat commanders. Kirk actually was both a savvy negotiator and a tactician. Riker was also good a good tactician, and it's a wonder they didn't give him his own command during the Dominion War. Sisko was the right man at the right point in history. Janeway would have been good if she'd been around for the war; she knew when to put up a fight and she would never give up.
You could make a case that the reasoning given for Pike's Enterprise to sit out the Klingon War; that is, to preserve the best of the Federation if it came to it, might have applied to Picard as well. Maybe they thought that Pike and Picard were the best chance to reform the Federation government in the wake of disaster? (Which, by extension, would make them the Adama of Starfleet, but I digress).
Honestly, I think Security should wear some kind of armor. Like, flexible padded vests made of titanium cotton polymer (don't know if that's the right phrase, I suck at science) that would make bladed weapons a non-issue, at least. And helmets.
and now we have blades who laugh at this
The TOS era films did show security with armored vests and helmets.
@@MSinistrari
Could you tell us which episodes
@@thodan467 Off the top of my head, Star Trek: The Motion Picture and Search for Spock.
The issue I see with SF Security is:
You can train someone for 100 years in Martial Arts/Weapon play....but you leave them with no armour and a command that tells them they're there for peace and security only and they're going to lose against anyone armoured and trained for x/y situations.
You dont put a bombardier in a CQC situation in a confined space and expect them to win.
Weapons and unarmed Combat are not all, most and likely not even the important parts of their skill set
I feel that the modern portrayal of star trek security is vastly more competent.
Which show you referring to? Snw, Picard, prodigy, lower decks, disc?
I actually agree.. Generally.. they handle things better
The starship's technological edge precluding the Security guys seeing much action shouldn't be a factor for a society with infinite resources: even if the security guys never actually have to repel boarders or raid a hostile ship or facility themselves, they can still spend hours every day running through holodeck sims of the battle of space-Guadalcanal to keep themselves sharp. Since that's not what we see, though, I'm inclined to agree with Lore's conclusion here - that Starfleet as an organization just didn't really see the point in the role anymore.
That almost certainly led to mission creep in what they expected Security personnel to do. So, instead of focusing on their role as space-deployed elite infantry, they trained as navigators, helmsmen, weapons officers, engineering techs, and any number of other roles - with a minor side gig of occasionally carrying a phaser and having been trained in combatives a bit here and there. After all, the Security role should be a non-issue if they do their other job properly, right?
This is wrongheaded, of course: when things get rough, infantry is the arm of RESTRAINT. They're who you go to when you need to secure a target _without_ leveling the city it's in from orbit. Boots on the ground what you use to go down there, find the target, and deal with it while minimizing collateral damage.
One of the clips that you showed is _exactly_ why we think they seem to be inept:
Tasha Yar: "...There is no one more physically trained than those in Starfleet - Eepecially in _Security_ people."
Note she said "Security" people - _not_ the "Armed Forces" (or the Star Trek equivalent). They are definitely the best trained _security_ force in the area. What's another word for security? Police. Even when you look at the phaser rifles they sometimes use, they are the equivalent of the police carrying M4 carbines for major situations. And the closest they get to a SWAT team is some of the more Elite units you see during the Dominion War.
But we _never_ hear about armored vehicles (in Alpha Canon, anyway), and we almost _never_ see Starfleet security using military tactics or strategies, or using highly lethal weapons, or heavy weapons. We often see them pairing up against the Jem'Hadar and Klingons, and we can immediately see the difference in their performance, as those two species use a fully military industrial complex, training, and tactics. Heck, consider the crippling losses to Starfleet Navy faced against fixed space orbital weapons, which is something Starfleet almost never used (and _certainly_ not at the lethality that could instantly penetrate the shields off of and cut deeply into the Galaxy Class USS Galaxy in that battle).
Back before the Starfleet years, as shown in the Star Trek Enterprise series, we see the MACO's. They have the proper rigging, low visibility uniforms, and high-powered weapons of a proper military fighting force. In fact, in the show, they were treated as the real-life US Marines on board US Navy ships.
So yes, Tasha Yar said it right - they are the best _security_ force in the quadrant. But a security force can't defend against a proper _military_ force.
true, Kirk was a warrior. remember though, there are great examples of Kirk brokering for peace, and then even when that failed, found ways through cunning and witt to minimize loss of life on all sides in many incidents where he had to use force. like an orbital stun bombardment.
so, I say Kirk had the head of a pacifist with the heart of a warrior. as any Starfleet Captain he was against the wanton destruction of life, but when need arose, he wouldn't hesitate to do what must be done.
A Warrior is simply someone ready to take on the fight. Not nesscarliy 100% of the time advocating for war instead of peace...That would be a Warmonger/Warlord. Also the very intention of the Warrior to fight is to ensure the protection of their cause, ideals, beliefs, faction, people etc. They're fighting so that one day or even today (other) people can live in peace.
That's even what the Sec 31 agent tried to convince Bashir with...We're breaking/bending the rules so you don't have to and to ensure that those rules exist in the first place. Kirk is someone that would've understood that clearly. Your actions are to ensure ideals come afterwards.
What the generation of Picard forgot is that violence and hostility aren't inherently wrong, that some have to sacrifice their ideals or even lives for the greater good of all, that the fight is never truly over there is no such thing as an universal peace to existence there is always another threat or challenge lurking both from within and without...So you need to be prepared for anything. Picard's generation simply got lazy and forgot that No the Federation isn't a god nor can they dictate how reality works nor are they 100% pacifistic nor should they be as that can be just as disadvantageous as extremely war-like...To get where they were and to remain so they must be something in-between and adaptable.
Both diplomats and cowboys, the idealists and pragmatists, the warriors and scholars are needed...All play a role in charting the way to progress and stability. If someone truly loves the Federation they will find a way for these differing opinions to unionize and maintain their ideals while also willing to subvert or convert them when needed.
@@flamesofchaos13 perfectly said
It’s pretty interesting/ironic that Riker said that about combat training with the Hathaway, but then ended-up being very competent at combat on the Titan.
When talking about security you also got to include computing systems, like people get abducted and nobody knows till someone asked the computer where is so and so. The computer should 100% know when any members of the crew or passengers are not accounted for, or if someone is there that shouldn’t be. Hell the computer should also have a registry of all objects, including the hull and anything coming into contact with the ship externally. Not to mention the whole why does the transporter not catch things being beamed on with others etc.
In fairness, how do you train against the "Writers need to show how serious the threat is by chewing through a few security unknowns" scenarios?
I don't think Kirk was the exception in Starfleet Captains of his era. He was exceptional in that he was the best at being a Starfleet Captain. But we see evidence in Commodore Decker that Starfleet of the 23rd century knew its primary mission was to protect the Federation.
As that protection seemed to be guaranteed after the disappearance of the Romulans and the explosion of Praxis Starfleet security became lax. By the time the Galaxy class was launched Starfleet security couldn't even convince the rest of the admiralty not to put families on starships.
security was bad , the fact that start fleet had NO marines was worse.
whichuse would starfleet have for them
Starfleet Security was at its best during the fourth season of DS9 when Captain Sisko took control of Starfleet Security on Earth…and his friends attempted a military coup against the Federation.
Putting aside the good points brought out in the video in the context of the universe, there is i think the RL fact that Star Trek was intended to be a show where the humans and aliens of the Federation would use a pacifist approach to resolve most of the conflicts. That's why I prefer the Orville in that regard because even if they eventually find the smart way to save the day, the security and military forces are holding up and give time to the rest of the crew to "figure it out peacefully".
So your saying that Commodore Oh rebuilt Starfleet security's capabilities?
A completely fair and even kind evaluation of the STARFLEET's lacking capacity...to be, secure. I too, would have too many suggestions for improvement in the offensive and defensive capacity of personnel and ships/ stations
The bridge for instance. Looks cool as heck but it's a fish in a barrel situation. Someone can step off the elevator with a phaser and take everyone out quick and easy. There needs to be more cover. Just saying.
If you got there this way i expect the problem was not losing the bridge, yoe can not beam harden the bridge
Starfleet basically decided that they had the biggest ships and the strongest weapons. Why train soldiers when no one can get that close to you? Then the Borg and Dominion happens.
The Siege of AR-558 is another good example of what is wrong with the Federations policies on ground combat. They've made progress, but they haven't regained enough lost technical experience.
This was definitely something that I always kind of fell out with about Star Trek. Especially during the Dominion War and on Voyager. In the Dominion War you see a clear need for Starfleet security to step up its game. You would think they would revamp and train their personnel to be able to actually fight. Voyager you would think that they would have adapted being that they were so far from the federation that they had to defend themselves from any number of threats. As far as the next generation was concerned it just was senseless that they were constantly defeated the way they were. Even in the best of times with as good of a history buff as Picard was you would think he would realize that. Not just him but Starfleet in general. Knowing that that is how Rome fell due to a weakening of its military as well as corruption.
I do really like how you point out this is actually quite logical and may even be intentional. Like Riker says, combat is only a tiny fraction of what Starfleet, even Starfleet Security, does. Why WOULD it be a huge focus in training when you have other things to worry about?
Starfleet was also a victim of their own technology. It got so good they thought they didn't need silly things like higher training and equipment for security, and then were less than willing to admit that view was wrong.
The truly frustrating thing is you'd think both the Vulcans and Andorians would require good states of readiness among the personnel whose job is literally "fight, defeat, and destroy threats that present themselves to your crew and the Federation". The Andorians had a very soldier-focused style of Warrior culture as we saw with Shran. Meanwhile the Vulcans would likely understand that violence might be distasteful, but it is occasionally necessary and thus it is only logical to be very adept in its use. After all, if you're capable of destroying an aggressor and they know it, they suddenly become more amenable to diplomacy.
One comment: I don't think Kirk was an exception. Ron Tracy and Matt Decker were both shown to have good hand to hand combat skills.
So did riker , we’re they good warriors though? Decker I could see, I don’t remember Tracy :/
Starfleet security similar to stormtroopers are as good as the plot needs them to be
They do the same thing with worf. Half the time he's this great warrior but any time they need to show the baddy of the week is tough. Bring out worf for some ass wuping.
@@tophatminion.7558 I agree it happens to tuvok in voyager sometimes as well
I once heard about a redshirt getting into a firefight with a stormtrooper. The stormtrooper missed but the redshirt still died...please don't cancel me...
Of course there is the Siege of AR-558 if you want to see rough ground troopers in star trek uniforms. O'Brien also had a lot of war experience against the Kardis. And then there was his former captain who liked to sing war songs.
You are correct. Because of a lack of need for adequate security forces, it would ultimately become stagnant and weak. And although this is a bit out of universe, a similar thing happened in star wars, where the galactic republic got so large it disbanded its entire military shy of local planetary security forces. It was because the republic became so powerful, there just wasn't a need for it. In fact, I think something similar is also going on in the real world right now because of Pax Americana, because we have been at peace for so long, military strength and capability is starting to weaken. It's especially bad with our current leadership, with general Milley being somewhat comparable to general McClellan.
I remembered a little history snippet I saw on the F4 Phantom, as it's first generation lacked an onboard canon for dogfighting. Why? Because this new generation of pilots were suppose to engage enemies out of sight through the use of long range tracked missiles. Dog fighting would be the thing of the past...till pilots found themselves needing to while engaging MiGs over Vietnam. F4 pilots couldn't get too close because their missiles needed time to engage and track, too far and they'd be outmaneuvered, and no gun option. So later iterations of the Phantom would included a gun pod, then build-in canons after, and dog fighting was back in the training regiment.
A change in tactics and doctrine that was meant to remove a very basic skill thinking it to be obsolete. It would be like removing the need to train ground troops in hand to hand combat because their guns can shoot at longer ranges more accurately.
The early security needed trigger guards on their phasers to avoid a negligent discharge. Sailors are trained to fight, but for real combat you need Marines.
or in this case.
space marines.
The quote you are looking for is from the Man-Kzin Wars series of books by Larry Niven. It starts by stating that Humans had proven too effective at war for their own good. They decided to pacify themselves as a result. Eventually they encountered an existential threat from an aggressive alien species, forcing them to change back.
It goes like this: A alien vessel is spotted, some which has never seen before build by a unknown species and culture.
You dock there, overwhelm they well trained security without much effort, then take the elevator to the bridge.
The captain and security officer make a last stand but are overwhelmed or threatened.
Then you sit down in the chairs, adjust they slice, play your favorite music and drive your new ship (which you have never seen before) around as you please.
2 weeks later the ships programs start to work against you and were chased of by a few hidden survivors of the crew.
That's starfleet security for you.
The "mall cops" comparison was fair for TNG. I laughed. Enterprise D at the time was essentially a family cruise ship that did science and exploration. And if you've ever been on a cruise ship, about the only differences are that one wears short pants, and the other carries a phaser.
A major issue is, Starfleet security can handle a lot of serious issues, like a hostile on board, without needing to send the security forces at all. Turn on the force fields, fuck with life support, transport someone inside out, etc. You don't need to have Ensign Ricky with the least ergonomic weapon ever designed get within stabbing range of a hostile Klingon.
The tech they bring to bear against an outside threat is formidable, but someone boards their ship and the best they can do is dispatch the 24th century equivalent of mall cops. If they took a hostile boarding party half as seriously as a radiation leak a boarding action against a functional starship would be a death sentence.
Gold shirts were the new Red shirts... 'Nuff said... Great video!!!
2160s Starfleet security: kills every enemy with the help of MACOs
2260s: they do the dying for the rest of the crew
2360s: less useful that a Romulan at an AA meeting
I always liked the idea of the "Elite Forces" model from the game. A team or multiple teams trained in advanced tactics with rifles, advanced defensive tech, and more kill than stun mentality. For a bar fight in 10 Forward, let regular security handle it. Ship is about to be boarded by hostile aliens, send out the Elite Forces ready to kill. Beaming down to Betazed for a slightly tense meeting, bring regular security. Making sure a site is safe for the captain to beam down to negotiate between two hostile factions, send the Elite Forces.
Also let's talk weapons and tactics. We know force fields exist and can stop some weapons temporarily. Mobile cover should be a thing. With advanced computing we need these guys with automatic turrets that can identify friend and foe fire as soon as your enemy is out of cover. Shuttle have phasers. In very low orbit above every hostile situation a shuttle waits way out of sight and when called on lays down death from above.
Without really adding anything tech wise there could be a lot done to strengthen the armed response of the Federation. Not saying nuke everything from orbit all the time, but sometimes you need to hit it hard and fast with a well trained team with only one goal, neutralize the threat.
How quickly could you seize the Enterprise D with say 4 MACO teams?
Pretty damn quick.
20 minutes tops.
Of course, that's because my MACO teams wouldn't be dumb enough to use turbolifts that can be shut down from the bridge. They'd use the secondary corridors and maintenance access ways.
Hit the engine room. Seal the hatches. Shut down power to the bridge. It's hard to regain control of your ship if nothing works, isn't it?
Did krill kind of makes the same argument in star trek beyond ?
Roddenberry was adamant that Star Fleet Security was not a Star Fleet Marine Corps. It was intended to be more like Masters-at-Arms and Shore Patrol. But that came into effect later after TOS.
"Devil in the Dark" showed the Enterprise's Security Detachment lead by a Full Commander, I guy equal in Rank to Spock, the 2IC. Whoever wrote that might have been thinking of it as a Battalion Landing Team embarked on a Carrier and Roddenberry and Coons either did not catch it (or agreed with it at the time).
Solving threats/issues on that kind of level would stop a lot of the plot to happen... if they are not solving issues on a diplomatic or creative science-y way it would be a boring ep of TNG... so yeah, let's put our barely trained/competent security person so Picard and co have to solve issues
I disageee.. Babylon 5, battle star galactica, and more did it.. are trek writers really that inferior ?
@@LoreReloaded Maybe it was more the mandates from Those On High that nerfed the writers as opposed to the bullpen being so shallow. I would include Gene among the TOH, especially for TNG.
@@LoreReloaded Probably.
I've always wondered if at some point federation super science with holograms and replicators and so on couldn't make starfleet uniforms into some kind of super equipment. Uniforms that project shields for defence and exploration of hazardous environments, if not some super armoured threads for making personnel functionally invulnerable against any non-contemporary, gloves that can form holographic tools and weapons on demand, or simply project phaser bolts at a whim.
They have their badges with this micro technology, so why not the full uniform? Link them in with their ships replicators and transporters to give them anything and everything they might need whenever it is needed. Project holograms to hide yourself, or create holo klingons to fight for you, or even host your hologrpahic friends as you travel around. Replicate drones or shelters when down on planets, or create armours and hardened suits when conditions change. Have the clothes be made of programmable matter that once expended can be teleported back to the ship and refreshed as needed to keep you going with all the water and food you might need.
It seems so bizarre to me that the signature uniforms they wear are all so primitive in comparison, especially if they aren't wearing klingon style body army or nasa space suits! Think of the lives saved when your workstation explodes but your dress uniform projects an emergency tungsten weave over you just as the blast arrives, saving your life even if it doesn't fully stop it.
A properly equipped federation uniform should make you look like a god, flicking your wrists and changing the world around you.
For all those saying “Starfleet needs to put marines aboard their starships”: the US Navy doesn’t use Marines for shipboard security anymore; they use Masters-at-Arms, a Navy rating (the Navy’s equivalent of an MOS); which would be the equivalent of Starfleet’s Security. Based on my personal observations, Masters-at-Arms are, as a rule, quite capable of providing shipboard security.
The (in universe) solution isn’t putting ‘marines’ aboard starships, it’s to update and improve Starfleet Security’s training. The _actual_ solution, of course, is better writing.
From the tv show points of view, I would say that DS9 had the best security due to situation it was in. Oddly enough, head of security wasn't a part of Starfleet. Now if you considered the many star trek novels that have been written over last 30 to 50 years, security was a lot more competent. Chekov even became Sulu's second-in-command due to his extensive security background, which includes black-op missions and intelligence missions. Worf was a lot more hands on in missions including parachuting into combat, which Worf found to be extremely exhilarating, when the Enterprise was helping out an interesting warrior species. I would say television did a lot to make starfleet security look incompetent. I sorry about not mention the titles of said books but I'm pushing fifty and I've been reading Star Trek, Star Wars, Buck Rodgers and sci-fi novels since the eight grade. There no way I can remember the titles.
I think it was a mistake that the Federation dissolved the MACOs. Just like the United States embassy to be able to secure the structure. In the same fashion you can have for a Federation ship. Which most were used for science, medical, political and exploration. You can have maybe a squad or two of MACOs, of course depending on the size of the ship to always be stationed. Avoid having a ship full of them to prevent any military direction. Also instilling the prime directive of defense rather than attack. Examples JDF ( Japanese Defense Force).
If Starfleet Security is going to rely on technological superiority, they really need to use their technology better. Personal shields, like in STO, would be GREAT for storytelling purposes in Star Trek series, because now you can have more shots fired that actually hit or graze the protagonists, and still have them flung around kinetically but say "the shields took the brunt of it." And you can use the same "my shield is down to 15%!" kind of thing for increased tension or to otherwise indicate that they can't keep Borg-ing their way through hails of phaser-fire.
But give Starfleet that and leave the tougher races without it and you start to see reason for Starfleet training to be less lustrous than the physical might of the Klingons or the like.
They also need to use their transporters to their advantage. "Internal sensors are offline" works fine for the times they don't want it to be that easy, but techno-babble up why they can't just beam the intruders to the brig, please. ("We're at warp and can't drop out" works, too, at least up until they finally developed internal site-to-site transport-at-warp technology. Not that that's even a problem for getting rid of an intruder bent on sabotaging the ship - lethal response is justified then, so beaming them into the void of space accidentally because you missed the brig is fine.)
There should be an extensive program on the holodeck for security force training, just on the combat skills of Roga Danar..
In beta cannon, they had referenced the Starfleet Marine Corps aka Starfleets actual military being around during one of the Federation Klingon wars as well as other stuff in the 23rd century and was similar to the MACOs but was later dissolved in the early 24th century, so I'm guessing that during TNG Starfleet figured why would you put people through hardcore training only to put them as ship security and breakup much smaller disagreements, if they had kept them around they would've had literal years to expand their forces & improve military technologies coming from every member world to fight the Borg and the Dominion, then Starfleet would have been able to almost single handedly to take on the entirety of the Dominion, but Starfleet isn't a military organization, but it would make for a pretty good star trek series.
As much as we like to perceive Star Trek as 'hard' science fiction, and a vision of what humanity COULD become, it also embraces a few 'fantasy' elements that allow everything to actually exist in a manner similar to what Gene Roddenberry originally had in mind.
In an 'ideal' universe, humans WOULDN'T need to focus much on combat, and would be able to negotiate peacefully with ANY other species they encountered, who would also be essentially 'peaceful' if they were also advanced enough technically (and hopefully socially) to achieve interstellar space travel.
I still think they should've kept a small MACO group that could be planetside most of the time, even in orbiting stations, and when needed increase there size for battles and war. Maybe have 2-3 one each ship to assist security during landing parties where there might be trouble. A lot of the technique training could be akin to taking martial arts today. After the Borg conflict in the best of both worlds increase the compliment to say 8-10. During Dominion war have a full compliment per ship. Afterwards the number would depend on the ship's mission and size but at least 12. It allows a special division just for military purposes while allowing security to focus on non military security concerns. Perhaps have a MACO bridge liaison officer who could take over if the CO & XO are disabled/killed.
You do realize that there is a much better explaination. Fiction not reality+Worf Effect. To establish things are a threat you say starfleet security is well trained and then show them being totally outclassed to establish that the baddies are strong. You didn't need that in the Dominion War because the Dominion was already shown to be strong so you got to see starfleet security operating as intended not that they got better because you didn't need to establish that the enemy is strong. Nor did you need it in Enterprise because Starfleet was new.
So first.. it’s called contextual criticism.. secondly.. battlestar galactica, Babylon 5 and many many more were able to do it.. the writers should do better
Larry Niven wrote in one of his books, the reason why man stoped fighting wars, was because we were so very very good at it. However I think the reason you think Starfleet security aren’t any good is the same reason people think storm troopers can’t shoot. If they portrayed them to be as good as they actually are the show would come to a very quick end.
I was always bothered about Picard's insistence that Starfleet wasn't a military organization. Because everything, to include the military / navy rank structure, and Starfleet literally fighting all the Federation's wars on its behalf, says otherwise.
When something is flaring up, Starfleet sends a warship to check things out and settle things down, preferably. If they want to talk, they'll send one of their diplomats on one of Starfleet's warships.
Sending a warship is a show of force, preferably to get people to back down and respect the Federation's power. Because sending something as powerful as a Constitution-class in TOS-era, or the even stronger, larger Galaxy-class of TNG era, is a show of force.
"We come in peace, but check out all these phasers and photon torpedoes that your civilization is not close in equaling."
Amazing depth of your argument; agree with your conclusions
Don't forget Lieutenant Leslie from TOS; died more times than Captain Scarlet but always came back!