Here is your broken heart land episode: "27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west-and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided. 28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore. 29 And also there were many Lamanites on the east by the seashore, whither the Nephites had driven them. And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful. 30 And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing. 31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food. 32 And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward. 33 And it came to pass that the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from the east unto the west sea, and thus the Nephites in their wisdom, with their guards and their armies, had hemmed in the Lamanites on the south, that thereby they should have no more possession on the north, that they might not overrun the land northward. 34 Therefore the Lamanites could have no more possessions only in the land of Nephi, and the wilderness round about. Now this was wisdom in the Nephites-as the Lamanites were an enemy to them, they would not suffer their afflictions on every hand, and also that they might have a country whither they might flee, according to their desires." (Alma 22:27-34)
There is a very particular structure in Tikal that, with the help of an incredible tour guide, I believe could point to a very specific "rebellious son" in the Book of Mormon. That's the non-TLDR version . . . here goes the rest. A pair of missionaries just rotated out, and without giving names here, they told me that members of the first presidency have traveled to this region & indicated that it was a region where particular events have taken place. I mention this because of the statement you made about how 'no official . . . *yadda*' and this sounded pretty official & idk either way. I'm a scuba diver w/ an advanced license & probably the deepest dive I've been on was at the Blue Hole in Belize c2009-2010. Our intended side-interest for the trip to go to a Mayan city in Belize was washed out w/ a heavy rain, so we redirected our interest to Tikal in Guatemala. Tikal means 'echo' and there is a very particular spot where you can stand in Tikal between two pyramids . . . when you clap your hands the echo will return with the sound of one of the native birds. *Pop* *pop* --> -*-Cahw-*- *Cahw*. The historian / guide we went with pointed out many other fascinating points of interest. There was the pyramid of the mother & father . . . he talked about how everything was built in stages of 50 years. It may be noteworthy to let you know . . . nobody involved in my experience here was a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints . . . and as far as I know, I'm the first in my family line to convert some 4 years after this event. Our guide was Catholic, as I was born, but converted to a form of Protestantism. Bible was a major of mine & I found it interesting that the time period for building in Tikal lined up with the year of Jubilee. The guide talked about how the people worshiped 'God' as 'God' and that this civilization of some 1700 years (Don't remember exact duration) shifted after a rebellious son (Son of the parents whose pyramids were known as mother & father) decided to have the people worship him (the rebellious son) as 'God' . . . and that this was the time period where human sacrifice entered into the culture & that the people were forced to work constantly on his pyramid until it was taller than his parents. Evidence of this is shown in the shape of the structures. all of the pyramids are pretty much the same as all the major ones we see across the planet. . . in fact the ones in Tikal are roughly within 1 degree longitude of the Great Pyramid. However the shape of bad-boy's bricks would be more like steeple prayer hands if you're sitting at a table & trying to get your elbows as close as you can together comfortably & not bending at the wrist. There were a massive number of trees there that were cultivated and one major feature of the tree was that it had 3 distinct branches near the top & there was a note in the guide's research on how this was a reminder to the people that 'there were 3 in heaven'. There were below-ground cities that had a connotation of fear to them known of as shebalba ( as in . . . kids don't go into shebalba . . . even some of the best big-boys die when the roof collapses -- only, the telephone game of handing down this story probably got embellished -- -- my impression). So the apex of this story for me ended up being a factor that I considered while investigating the Mormon church in 2013 . . . something I reflected on as I read the Book of Mormon. The guide told us he was so excited when he found a survivor, a Mayan woman who spoke Mayan as her native tongue. She became evangelized and learned Spanish as she read her Bible, and later decided to learn some Greek and Hebrew to know more about the origins of scripture. She told our guide that it was incredibly easy for her to learn Hebrew as so many of the Hebrew words were exactly the same as her native Maya tongue. It wasn't all that impactful to me at the time, but I did find it interesting. The most solid connection that I have seen that binds language from where the Israelites were forced to make brick & the new world is the Book of Mormon. Of course, there are references about 'where the land narrows' and yes, there are lots of theories out there about 'where exactly' certain things took place . . . but I like to think of the land that narrows as the Panama canal & that perhaps the Tikal pyramids are where certain events on the plates took place before they eventually found their way to Palmyra. There certainly are other underwater cities, some at incredibly high elevation, which if you know about scuba rules, that would make discovery much more difficult. Enough said . . . . except possibly a thankful testimony I do have faith, and I'm thankful for things that helped me to discover more about what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually believe. Because what I was being told in my protestant church was not even remotely close to an honest representation.
I don't know why the cross-out font is through 1/2 of this, but I'll let it sit as it stands so that it's not 'edited' . . . but I will note that I had no intention of having strikethrough text
I think it's more likely the Book of Mormon was set in North America, although I don't have any proof. I've always thought it was strange that we say everything took place in central/south America, except when Moroni decided to walk thousands of miles up to New York to bury the plates. UPDATE: I'm a random guy who thinks the "heartland" model is interesting. Besides church tradition, there's no definitive proof that the Book of Mormon was set in Mesoamerica. I don't understand the hostility of people defending the Mesoamerica model. Does it really matter at the end of the day? The bottom line is that the story took place in "the Americas." That's all we really know.
Ill try to find the details of this but, I do remember coming across information about a lake in Tennessee that was formed by a dam in the early 1900s where there were ancient ruins that were submerged.
One thing I have noticed is those believing in the heartland theory are very confrontational kinda like apostates. That alone tells me the theory of the heartland is wrong. Those believing in mesoamerica are much more peaceful. But why you ask? Prayer and the power of discernment.
There's a similar sunken city near New Orleans. Although there hasn't been much exploration yet, they've pulled up hundreds of artifacts near the Mississippi delta that seem to indicate a city once stood there. And if you watch Graham Hancock's "Ancient Apocalypse", you'll see that there's dozens if not hundreds of examples of sunken cities found throughout the world.
Could you please make a video covering the 1886 Revelation as well as the priesthood group set apart to keep plural marriage alive? I want to ask about it and believe that if something is taught by Joseph, like the United Order or full temple endowment- we ought to be practicing it, the same is true for Celestial Marriage. I have a testimony of the gospel, but this bit of church history makes me have doubts about the true succession of the prophets and which group has the Priesthood. I would love to hear your insights. Love your videos!
Good question. From the notes in the description: “‘We have found six ceremonial monuments and four altars and without doubt there are more, which means this was an extremely important place from a spiritual point of view,’ lead archaeologist Sonia Medrano told Reuters in an interview. … Medrano...says the island has ruins of small houses for about 150 people and is crammed with religious paraphernalia, leading researchers to believe Samabaj was a pilgrimage destination. Worshippers probably flocked there from the surrounding area, hiring boats from the shore to row them out to the island for prayer and contemplation, Medrano said.” Source: bit.ly/44qfQIW
Not to be "that guy" but didn't Joseph himself clearly say the BoM took place in the area where he lived? I don't know why we're so dedicated to disagreeing with the guy who revealed the entire book to us.
It seems to me that Joseph's own understanding of Book of Mormon geography changed over time, so it's hard to take any side without disagreeing with something Joseph said on the subject. Personally, the variety of statements he made about geography suggests to me that he really didn't know precisely where Book of Mormon events took place. Joseph made statements about North American, Central America, and both North and South America together. Here's just one about Central America: “This is a work [Stephens and Catherwoods book, 'Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan'] that ought to be in the hands of every Latter Day Saint; corroborating, as it does the history of the Book of Mormon. There is no stronger circumstancial evidence of the authenticity of the latter book, can be given, than that contained in Mr. Stephens’ works.” Source: Times and Seasons Oct. 1, 1843, Vol. 4 No. 22, pg 346-347 Lots of additional examples here: www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2010/04/02/book-of-mormon-geography-in-joseph-smiths-day
2:05 My biggest random takeaway from this episode is that apparently?? there are just...models for the Book of Mormon geography...in Sri Lanka. and Malaysia??
“A Transcendental Critique of Mormonism” The Transcendental Argument can be summarized in this way: it argues that all alternatives to Christianity render knowledge and intelligibility of human experience impossible, and since it is self-defeating to hold the position that knowledge and intelligibility of human experience is not the case, Christianity must therefore be necessarily true. How the first premise (the incompatibility of alternative belief systems with the reality of human intelligibility) is argued will depend on the particular alternative worldview held by the Christian apologist’s interlocutor, which informs the apologist which worldview to critique. In the following, I make a Transcendental critique of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon) theology, utilizing the problem of the One and the Many (how their deities’ lack of unity/transcendence entails insurmountable problems proving the falsity of their system). On LDS theology, the heavenly father was once a man like us, whom his god created, spent time on his previous planet as a man, did enough good, and as a result, became the god of our planet, and we have the opportunity to do likewise. On LDS theology, presumably, his god had a god, and that god had a god, and so on into an infinite regress. These finite deities cannot ground universal, unchanging, immaterial laws, such as logic and morality, due to their being physical, changing, and having a finite beginning. A law (whether moral or logical), if unchanging and applicable/true at all times, must therefore always be, whereas each of these gods come into existence at a finite point in history as men (then do enough ‘good’ to become gods). However, each finite god is always preceded by the existence of moral and logical laws and thus doesn’t ground them (is not the source of these laws). Another reason they can’t ground these laws is that the LDS deities are said to be corporeal (physical), and laws of logic and morality are not. How can the law that ‘murder is wrong’ be physical? What about the law of non-contradiction? Are either of these made up of atoms, have a specific mass, or possess a particular texture? Supposing these immaterial, unchanging, eternal, and transcendent laws could somehow exist in a Mormon universe (but not grounded in any god), the finite deities couldn’t gain knowledge of them because they lack universal experience. To know if a law will hold true at all times in all places requires experience of all times and all places, which they don’t have since each god is not eternal and omnipresent but comes into existence as a part of the universe (each god experiences manhood on one planet and godhood on another (thus experiences two planets)) with a chunk of the universe’s history already having taken place so that no god has knowledge/experience of all places at all times. Neither does LDS theology have any being who does have such necessary universal experience and is personal to communicate these laws to the LDS deities’ finite minds (such a conception would resemble a description of the God of Christianity). Limited experience entails that each finite god could have his beliefs contradicted by something outside the scope of the deity’s experience. This means that all the deity's beliefs are fallible, and/or the deity might change his mind about previous beliefs. This undermines the reliability of any belief this supposed god discloses to humans, such as in sacred texts (or allegedly sacred texts). With word-revelation undermined this severely, this would leave man to the autonomous ‘man is the measure of all things’ position or method of obtaining knowledge (no different than secular epistemology (theory/method of knowledge)), which in turn reduces into either self-defeating position of skepticism or relativism. Thus, we see that LDS theology is incompatible with logic, morality, and knowledge, rendering the human experience wholly unintelligible. However, your ability to understand anything in this writing whatsoever demonstrates that human experience is, in fact, intelligible, and thus LDS theology is undoubtedly false. By contrast, in Christianity, we as humans have finite minds. Yet, we can gain knowledge of universal laws due to God, who either communicates them to us or implants/preprograms them as immediate knowledge. This he can and does via his transcendence infinitude omniscience and omnipresence (that he grounds and perfectly knows these), omnipotence & personalism (that he communicates them). Additionally, moral laws are not some mysterious, impersonal something out there to which God submits. His nature or character is the ground of goodness (which can be the case for an eternal, unchanging, and immaterial being). Thus, everything he does is good by nature and definition. Thus, he grounds moral laws, too. Lastly, God’s omniscience means that everything, not God (i.e., creation), results from God’s creative decree; and since God knows himself exhaustively, he also knows his creative decree exhaustively. As a result of this, as well as God’s universal experience (omnipresence), he has an infinite knowledge encompassing all particular information from eternity, such that there will not be any new info which might appear to God that could alter his perceptions or beliefs at any point in time, let alone after he gives word revelation (Scripture). We can know, therefore, that what he reveals is sure, and so word-revelation will be infallible as well. Thus, we see that, unlike the LDS gods, the absolute and transcendent Triune God of Christianity makes sense of the intelligibility of human experience, as I’ve shown in relation to logic, morality, and knowledge. However, the most critical difference is that the Gospel laid out in the Bible is that, unlike in LDS theology (and all other religions, for that matter), salvation is all of the Triune God, in which the Father sent the eternal and equally divine Son to take on flesh, live a perfect life of obedience, then die in place of sinners taking on their punishment and imputing to them the perfect righteousness the Son merited. The Holy Spirit is poured out in those who repent and believe, applying the benefits the Son procured on the cross, including the faith and repentance that those sinners respond to the Gospel with. May the reader also be blessed with the benefits of the cross through faith and repentance. Soli Deo Gloria! November 22, 2023 ❤️
So, calling it Atlantis... Atlantis as a concept was at least as old as Plato, who was kicking around 400 years before Christ. So, calling the BoM Jerusalem "Atlantis" might conflate different topics
Listen to Timothy Alberino if any of you wants to dig into the indepth book of enoch's research. There are very few points that I disagree with (mainly because the revealed truth is with us) in his theory but love his research all the way.
Most saints that examine the evidence actually believe the main events happened of the BoM happened where Joseph and Oliver who actually translated the plates said it was, where they were found. In north Eastern North America. Obviously bands of nephite and lamanite peoples would have spread all over the Americas taking cultural and religious and linguistic similarities with them. Which is why some meso believers find things linking them to the BoM. But the main events of the Book of Mormon happened where the jaredites and nephites nations rose and fell and where Americans are warned they will rise and fall if they do or repent as well. North eastern America. There is only one hill cumorah. Everything needed to obey the law of Moses exists in that area, while almost none of it does in meso America. It's ok. Lehis seed spread all over the land. But when Joseph's any missionaries to the lamanites he sent them to tribes in North America not meso America. When he traveled over North America he said the bones they were picking up and looking at were nephites bones and called them the plains of the nephites. There are Mountains of evidence that this is the case. Those that follow meso America tend to be academics that were trained by academics to tow the line and resist all change or evidence to the contrary. These academics are well established and gatekeep all dissent from serious consideration. If you don’t believe what they believe they will mock and deride you as ignorant. Activities which are more akin to the great and spacious building than to those that dwell by the tree and cry come and see. Just sayin.
@@kenedward4585 the nephites and lamanites are certainly one part of the BoM. But let me ask this. Before I spend a bunch of time answering, will it make a dimes worth of a difference? Many people continue to dismiss the books of the Bible regardless of the fact that archaeological evidence shows that the events described have a basis in fact. I dont mind spending time I would never get back if it would help another person come to know God. But short of that, I would be taking time from things that actually make a difference in the world by wasting it showing evidence that never had a chance to change anything for you. The doctrine and covenants is teeming with evidence archeological and otherwise that it took place exactly as described but does that change a faithless heart? If you won't believe the D&C with evidence what difference would evidence make in how you view the BoM.?
A part of me has wondered that as well in times past; and I have come to the conclusion that God emphasizes our need for faith due to the fact that spiritual matters must first and foremost be learned spiritually. While there are strong evidences for the Book of Mormon (check out our other FaB episodes for more details), if we had all the physical proof we could ever dream of having, there would be no need for faith. Faith is a key component of our spiritual growth and development. And due to the need for faith as I study the scriptures, my faith in God and His teachings have dramatically strengthened.
Spirituality can mean many things to many people, not all of which require faith. I’m often troubled by the use of faith in this context. I can understand the usefulness of faith in certain contexts. Like having faith that difficult challenges can be beneficial to one’s experience, but it’s not something that always holds true. In the parent-child relationship I honestly question a parent that would require their children to have faith in what they are telling them to do. That’s not preparing the child well for engaging with the world. Even if a parent can’t completely explain to a child the importance of rules/concepts it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t do so anyways. Eventually the child will develop and they will be capable of understanding. In the case of God it seems even stranger that such a perfected being is incapable of explaining the reason of anything in terms any human could understand. As for strong evidences for the Book of Mormon I’ve seen most of those strongly contested, so it’s hard to accept they are strong evidences. Even if I were to accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God it creates many more problems than it solves. Do you feel your views on the Book of Mormon are objective? If there are so many strong evidences why are there so few members of the LDS church, relative to the world population? Also, thanks for the reply!
Would it change anything if there were? There's concrete evidence for many places, people, events and artifacts described in the Bible, yet billions still dispute its historicity. Yet when you really get down to it, it's not because they don't believe (as they claim), but because they refuse to follow the commandments of God. No amount of evidence will shift their hardened hearts.
@@kelaarin I guess I have more "faith" in humanity than to say the majority would continue to deny the truth of something when there is lots of compelling evidence. Billions don't dispute lots of old ideas that have been refuted due to evidence, like the earth being a sphere, the center of the solar system being the sun, etc. Assuming the best of people is better than assuming the worst, which ironically sounds like something Christ would have said.
I suggest we put our money and invest in that area to see what it really is! If this would cement the truth of the book of mormon! but if this is just speculation then.. it won't cement anything..
@@JD-pr1et Hope this helps: "a land of promise".."a land which I have prepared" (1 Nephi 2:20) "a land which is choice above all other lands" (2 Nephi 1:5) "shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the Gentiles shall be blessed upon the land. (2 Nephi 10: 11) "And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles" (2 Nephi 10: 12) "And I will fortify this land against all other nations." (2 Nephi 10: 13)
@@kingdave1 Yes. There are some passages that point directly to modern America as well as the entire two continents as the entire land of Joseph as well as describing the limited geography of the Nephite and Lamanite lands. However, as there is no river flowing to the north, no raised roads, no sufficient populations during the times of the text, no volcanos active there and no earthquakes at the time of Christ's death in the area, only wet and dry seasons, distances way to large for what the text notes, etc. the Heartland model fails against the text.
Why didn't you tell the viewers that everything they pulled up out of the lake has been verified to NOT be related to any of the people groups in the BOM, but rather to ancient Mayans? It just sounds like you don't care about the actual truth, but rather you just want to create vague assertions to cover the glaring lack of historic evidence for the BOM.
Lol your contradiction comes from modern researchers who probably think the earth is billions of years old, even though the scriptures say otherwise, and it's accompanied by an "IF this is true" statement. I'm on the believing side 😊
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I traveled there in the early 90s. The locals told us during dry years the lake level would lower and you could see a sunken city.
You still owe us a heartlander episode!! ❤
Here is your broken heart land episode:
"27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west-and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.
28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.
29 And also there were many Lamanites on the east by the seashore, whither the Nephites had driven them. And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful.
30 And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing.
31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.
32 And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.
33 And it came to pass that the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountiful, even from the east unto the west sea, and thus the Nephites in their wisdom, with their guards and their armies, had hemmed in the Lamanites on the south, that thereby they should have no more possession on the north, that they might not overrun the land northward.
34 Therefore the Lamanites could have no more possessions only in the land of Nephi, and the wilderness round about. Now this was wisdom in the Nephites-as the Lamanites were an enemy to them, they would not suffer their afflictions on every hand, and also that they might have a country whither they might flee, according to their desires." (Alma 22:27-34)
The editing is absolutely 🔥....
There is a very particular structure in Tikal that, with the help of an incredible tour guide, I believe could point to a very specific "rebellious son" in the Book of Mormon. That's the non-TLDR version . . . here goes the rest. A pair of missionaries just rotated out, and without giving names here, they told me that members of the first presidency have traveled to this region & indicated that it was a region where particular events have taken place. I mention this because of the statement you made about how 'no official . . . *yadda*' and this sounded pretty official & idk either way. I'm a scuba diver w/ an advanced license & probably the deepest dive I've been on was at the Blue Hole in Belize c2009-2010. Our intended side-interest for the trip to go to a Mayan city in Belize was washed out w/ a heavy rain, so we redirected our interest to Tikal in Guatemala. Tikal means 'echo' and there is a very particular spot where you can stand in Tikal between two pyramids . . . when you clap your hands the echo will return with the sound of one of the native birds. *Pop* *pop* --> -*-Cahw-*- *Cahw*. The historian / guide we went with pointed out many other fascinating points of interest. There was the pyramid of the mother & father . . . he talked about how everything was built in stages of 50 years. It may be noteworthy to let you know . . . nobody involved in my experience here was a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints . . . and as far as I know, I'm the first in my family line to convert some 4 years after this event. Our guide was Catholic, as I was born, but converted to a form of Protestantism. Bible was a major of mine & I found it interesting that the time period for building in Tikal lined up with the year of Jubilee. The guide talked about how the people worshiped 'God' as 'God' and that this civilization of some 1700 years (Don't remember exact duration) shifted after a rebellious son (Son of the parents whose pyramids were known as mother & father) decided to have the people worship him (the rebellious son) as 'God' . . . and that this was the time period where human sacrifice entered into the culture & that the people were forced to work constantly on his pyramid until it was taller than his parents. Evidence of this is shown in the shape of the structures. all of the pyramids are pretty much the same as all the major ones we see across the planet. . . in fact the ones in Tikal are roughly within 1 degree longitude of the Great Pyramid. However the shape of bad-boy's bricks would be more like steeple prayer hands if you're sitting at a table & trying to get your elbows as close as you can together comfortably & not bending at the wrist. There were a massive number of trees there that were cultivated and one major feature of the tree was that it had 3 distinct branches near the top & there was a note in the guide's research on how this was a reminder to the people that 'there were 3 in heaven'. There were below-ground cities that had a connotation of fear to them known of as shebalba ( as in . . . kids don't go into shebalba . . . even some of the best big-boys die when the roof collapses -- only, the telephone game of handing down this story probably got embellished -- -- my impression). So the apex of this story for me ended up being a factor that I considered while investigating the Mormon church in 2013 . . . something I reflected on as I read the Book of Mormon. The guide told us he was so excited when he found a survivor, a Mayan woman who spoke Mayan as her native tongue. She became evangelized and learned Spanish as she read her Bible, and later decided to learn some Greek and Hebrew to know more about the origins of scripture. She told our guide that it was incredibly easy for her to learn Hebrew as so many of the Hebrew words were exactly the same as her native Maya tongue. It wasn't all that impactful to me at the time, but I did find it interesting. The most solid connection that I have seen that binds language from where the Israelites were forced to make brick & the new world is the Book of Mormon. Of course, there are references about 'where the land narrows' and yes, there are lots of theories out there about 'where exactly' certain things took place . . . but I like to think of the land that narrows as the Panama canal & that perhaps the Tikal pyramids are where certain events on the plates took place before they eventually found their way to Palmyra. There certainly are other underwater cities, some at incredibly high elevation, which if you know about scuba rules, that would make discovery much more difficult. Enough said . . . . except possibly a thankful testimony I do have faith, and I'm thankful for things that helped me to discover more about what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually believe. Because what I was being told in my protestant church was not even remotely close to an honest representation.
I don't know why the cross-out font is through 1/2 of this, but I'll let it sit as it stands so that it's not 'edited' . . . but I will note that I had no intention of having strikethrough text
I think it's more likely the Book of Mormon was set in North America, although I don't have any proof. I've always thought it was strange that we say everything took place in central/south America, except when Moroni decided to walk thousands of miles up to New York to bury the plates.
UPDATE: I'm a random guy who thinks the "heartland" model is interesting. Besides church tradition, there's no definitive proof that the Book of Mormon was set in Mesoamerica. I don't understand the hostility of people defending the Mesoamerica model. Does it really matter at the end of the day? The bottom line is that the story took place in "the Americas." That's all we really know.
Ill try to find the details of this but, I do remember coming across information about a lake in Tennessee that was formed by a dam in the early 1900s where there were ancient ruins that were submerged.
@@michaelsheflo 👍
I definitely think central america
@@Khig494 Why?
One thing I have noticed is those believing in the heartland theory are very confrontational kinda like apostates. That alone tells me the theory of the heartland is wrong. Those believing in mesoamerica are much more peaceful. But why you ask? Prayer and the power of discernment.
good job
this was a cool episode arceology is always fascinating
This channel is a blessings
You are a blessing!
I loved the even treatment. Some people would not tell us the weaknesses of the theory.
There's a similar sunken city near New Orleans. Although there hasn't been much exploration yet, they've pulled up hundreds of artifacts near the Mississippi delta that seem to indicate a city once stood there. And if you watch Graham Hancock's "Ancient Apocalypse", you'll see that there's dozens if not hundreds of examples of sunken cities found throughout the world.
archeology is something I love so, this was great.
Oh I’m going to teach this at church this Sunday. 😂
Could you please make a video covering the 1886 Revelation as well as the priesthood group set apart to keep plural marriage alive? I want to ask about it and believe that if something is taught by Joseph, like the United Order or full temple endowment- we ought to be practicing it, the same is true for Celestial Marriage. I have a testimony of the gospel, but this bit of church history makes me have doubts about the true succession of the prophets and which group has the Priesthood. I would love to hear your insights. Love your videos!
This was fantastic, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
04:17 What constitues a religious structure?
I think it's anything an archeologist finds 🤣
@@loudogg73 🤣🤣🤣
Good question. From the notes in the description: “‘We have found six ceremonial monuments and four altars and without doubt there are more, which means this was an extremely important place from a spiritual point of view,’ lead archaeologist Sonia Medrano told Reuters in an interview. … Medrano...says the island has ruins of small houses for about 150 people and is crammed with religious paraphernalia, leading researchers to believe Samabaj was a pilgrimage destination. Worshippers probably flocked there from the surrounding area, hiring boats from the shore to row them out to the island for prayer and contemplation, Medrano said.” Source: bit.ly/44qfQIW
@@davidsnell2605 That's fascinating. I appreciate your reply
@@davidsnell2605 David, ur research and delivery is spot on....u rock bro!!!!!👍
I love the Book of Mormon!
I'm grateful for the knowledge of the Lord.
Me too!
If you really wanted the knowledge of the Lord you would ask God to reveal himself to you instead of asking somebody else tell me about him
Not to be "that guy" but didn't Joseph himself clearly say the BoM took place in the area where he lived? I don't know why we're so dedicated to disagreeing with the guy who revealed the entire book to us.
Later on in his years he quit saying that as he became stronger in his testimony
Nope.
It seems to me that Joseph's own understanding of Book of Mormon geography changed over time, so it's hard to take any side without disagreeing with something Joseph said on the subject. Personally, the variety of statements he made about geography suggests to me that he really didn't know precisely where Book of Mormon events took place. Joseph made statements about North American, Central America, and both North and South America together. Here's just one about Central America:
“This is a work [Stephens and Catherwoods book, 'Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatan'] that ought to be in the hands of every Latter Day Saint; corroborating, as it does the history of the Book of Mormon. There is no stronger circumstancial evidence of the authenticity of the latter book, can be given, than that contained in Mr. Stephens’ works.” Source: Times and Seasons Oct. 1, 1843, Vol. 4 No. 22, pg 346-347
Lots of additional examples here: www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2010/04/02/book-of-mormon-geography-in-joseph-smiths-day
@@davidsnell2605 I know for me thru prayer and discernment central
America has always felt right
There's a lake in Michigan with hopewell Indian pyramids that sunk into a lake between 0 - 100 A.D...
2:05 My biggest random takeaway from this episode is that apparently?? there are just...models for the Book of Mormon geography...in Sri Lanka. and Malaysia??
“A Transcendental Critique of Mormonism”
The Transcendental Argument can be summarized in this way: it argues that all alternatives to Christianity render knowledge and intelligibility of human experience impossible, and since it is self-defeating to hold the position that knowledge and intelligibility of human experience is not the case, Christianity must therefore be necessarily true. How the first premise (the incompatibility of alternative belief systems with the reality of human intelligibility) is argued will depend on the particular alternative worldview held by the Christian apologist’s interlocutor, which informs the apologist which worldview to critique. In the following, I make a Transcendental critique of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon) theology, utilizing the problem of the One and the Many (how their deities’ lack of unity/transcendence entails insurmountable problems proving the falsity of their system).
On LDS theology, the heavenly father was once a man like us, whom his god created, spent time on his previous planet as a man, did enough good, and as a result, became the god of our planet, and we have the opportunity to do likewise. On LDS theology, presumably, his god had a god, and that god had a god, and so on into an infinite regress. These finite deities cannot ground universal, unchanging, immaterial laws, such as logic and morality, due to their being physical, changing, and having a finite beginning. A law (whether moral or logical), if unchanging and applicable/true at all times, must therefore always be, whereas each of these gods come into existence at a finite point in history as men (then do enough ‘good’ to become gods). However, each finite god is always preceded by the existence of moral and logical laws and thus doesn’t ground them (is not the source of these laws). Another reason they can’t ground these laws is that the LDS deities are said to be corporeal (physical), and laws of logic and morality are not. How can the law that ‘murder is wrong’ be physical? What about the law of non-contradiction? Are either of these made up of atoms, have a specific mass, or possess a particular texture?
Supposing these immaterial, unchanging, eternal, and transcendent laws could somehow exist in a Mormon universe (but not grounded in any god), the finite deities couldn’t gain knowledge of them because they lack universal experience. To know if a law will hold true at all times in all places requires experience of all times and all places, which they don’t have since each god is not eternal and omnipresent but comes into existence as a part of the universe (each god experiences manhood on one planet and godhood on another (thus experiences two planets)) with a chunk of the universe’s history already having taken place so that no god has knowledge/experience of all places at all times. Neither does LDS theology have any being who does have such necessary universal experience and is personal to communicate these laws to the LDS deities’ finite minds (such a conception would resemble a description of the God of Christianity).
Limited experience entails that each finite god could have his beliefs contradicted by something outside the scope of the deity’s experience. This means that all the deity's beliefs are fallible, and/or the deity might change his mind about previous beliefs. This undermines the reliability of any belief this supposed god discloses to humans, such as in sacred texts (or allegedly sacred texts). With word-revelation undermined this severely, this would leave man to the autonomous ‘man is the measure of all things’ position or method of obtaining knowledge (no different than secular epistemology (theory/method of knowledge)), which in turn reduces into either self-defeating position of skepticism or relativism. Thus, we see that LDS theology is incompatible with logic, morality, and knowledge, rendering the human experience wholly unintelligible. However, your ability to understand anything in this writing whatsoever demonstrates that human experience is, in fact, intelligible, and thus LDS theology is undoubtedly false.
By contrast, in Christianity, we as humans have finite minds. Yet, we can gain knowledge of universal laws due to God, who either communicates them to us or implants/preprograms them as immediate knowledge. This he can and does via his transcendence infinitude omniscience and omnipresence (that he grounds and perfectly knows these), omnipotence & personalism (that he communicates them). Additionally, moral laws are not some mysterious, impersonal something out there to which God submits. His nature or character is the ground of goodness (which can be the case for an eternal, unchanging, and immaterial being). Thus, everything he does is good by nature and definition. Thus, he grounds moral laws, too. Lastly, God’s omniscience means that everything, not God (i.e., creation), results from God’s creative decree; and since God knows himself exhaustively, he also knows his creative decree exhaustively. As a result of this, as well as God’s universal experience (omnipresence), he has an infinite knowledge encompassing all particular information from eternity, such that there will not be any new info which might appear to God that could alter his perceptions or beliefs at any point in time, let alone after he gives word revelation (Scripture). We can know, therefore, that what he reveals is sure, and so word-revelation will be infallible as well. Thus, we see that, unlike the LDS gods, the absolute and transcendent Triune God of Christianity makes sense of the intelligibility of human experience, as I’ve shown in relation to logic, morality, and knowledge.
However, the most critical difference is that the Gospel laid out in the Bible is that, unlike in LDS theology (and all other religions, for that matter), salvation is all of the Triune God, in which the Father sent the eternal and equally divine Son to take on flesh, live a perfect life of obedience, then die in place of sinners taking on their punishment and imputing to them the perfect righteousness the Son merited. The Holy Spirit is poured out in those who repent and believe, applying the benefits the Son procured on the cross, including the faith and repentance that those sinners respond to the Gospel with. May the reader also be blessed with the benefits of the cross through faith and repentance.
Soli Deo Gloria!
November 22, 2023 ❤️
Please, please please, interview Wayne May!
So, calling it Atlantis... Atlantis as a concept was at least as old as Plato, who was kicking around 400 years before Christ. So, calling the BoM Jerusalem "Atlantis" might conflate different topics
Epic
Listen to Timothy Alberino if any of you wants to dig into the indepth book of enoch's research. There are very few points that I disagree with (mainly because the revealed truth is with us) in his theory but love his research all the way.
Elder McConkie mentioned Atlantis in The Promised Messiah.
Dating things with a plus-minus factor of 250 years is such a GUESS. So I would not take the dating factor as heavy evidence against the hypothesis.
🥚👀
I also wonder of an explanation for Atlantis could be the city of Enoch
MAKE YOUR VIDEOS LONGER!! SAVE THE ~5MIN VIDEOS FOR YT SHORTS. 😅❤
Most saints that examine the evidence actually believe the main events happened of the BoM happened where Joseph and Oliver who actually translated the plates said it was, where they were found. In north Eastern North America. Obviously bands of nephite and lamanite peoples would have spread all over the Americas taking cultural and religious and linguistic similarities with them. Which is why some meso believers find things linking them to the BoM. But the main events of the Book of Mormon happened where the jaredites and nephites nations rose and fell and where Americans are warned they will rise and fall if they do or repent as well. North eastern America. There is only one hill cumorah. Everything needed to obey the law of Moses exists in that area, while almost none of it does in meso America.
It's ok. Lehis seed spread all over the land. But when Joseph's any missionaries to the lamanites he sent them to tribes in North America not meso America. When he traveled over North America he said the bones they were picking up and looking at were nephites bones and called them the plains of the nephites. There are Mountains of evidence that this is the case. Those that follow meso America tend to be academics that were trained by academics to tow the line and resist all change or evidence to the contrary. These academics are well established and gatekeep all dissent from serious consideration. If you don’t believe what they believe they will mock and deride you as ignorant. Activities which are more akin to the great and spacious building than to those that dwell by the tree and cry come and see. Just sayin.
Hmmmph then were is the archaeological evidence from the millions of Laminites and Nephites and their massive cities?
@@kenedward4585 everywhere
@@myeyepie Ok, can you then name somewhere?
@@kenedward4585 the nephites and lamanites are certainly one part of the BoM. But let me ask this. Before I spend a bunch of time answering, will it make a dimes worth of a difference? Many people continue to dismiss the books of the Bible regardless of the fact that archaeological evidence shows that the events described have a basis in fact. I dont mind spending time I would never get back if it would help another person come to know God. But short of that, I would be taking time from things that actually make a difference in the world by wasting it showing evidence that never had a chance to change anything for you.
The doctrine and covenants is teeming with evidence archeological and otherwise that it took place exactly as described but does that change a faithless heart? If you won't believe the D&C with evidence what difference would evidence make in how you view the BoM.?
One day we will know.
It takes more than an excommunication to remove a testimony from a mormon.
MORE EXCITING FACTS COMING IN THE
FUTURE
These were not natural disasters. The BOM states that Jesus himself caused these disasters. He takes credit for each one of them.
I just wonder why God makes it so hard to find some concrete proof for the Book of Mormon.
A part of me has wondered that as well in times past; and I have come to the conclusion that God emphasizes our need for faith due to the fact that spiritual matters must first and foremost be learned spiritually. While there are strong evidences for the Book of Mormon (check out our other FaB episodes for more details), if we had all the physical proof we could ever dream of having, there would be no need for faith. Faith is a key component of our spiritual growth and development. And due to the need for faith as I study the scriptures, my faith in God and His teachings have dramatically strengthened.
Spirituality can mean many things to many people, not all of which require faith. I’m often troubled by the use of faith in this context. I can understand the usefulness of faith in certain contexts. Like having faith that difficult challenges can be beneficial to one’s experience, but it’s not something that always holds true. In the parent-child relationship I honestly question a parent that would require their children to have faith in what they are telling them to do. That’s not preparing the child well for engaging with the world. Even if a parent can’t completely explain to a child the importance of rules/concepts it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t do so anyways. Eventually the child will develop and they will be capable of understanding. In the case of God it seems even stranger that such a perfected being is incapable of explaining the reason of anything in terms any human could understand. As for strong evidences for the Book of Mormon I’ve seen most of those strongly contested, so it’s hard to accept they are strong evidences. Even if I were to accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God it creates many more problems than it solves. Do you feel your views on the Book of Mormon are objective? If there are so many strong evidences why are there so few members of the LDS church, relative to the world population? Also, thanks for the reply!
Would it change anything if there were? There's concrete evidence for many places, people, events and artifacts described in the Bible, yet billions still dispute its historicity.
Yet when you really get down to it, it's not because they don't believe (as they claim), but because they refuse to follow the commandments of God. No amount of evidence will shift their hardened hearts.
@@kelaarin I guess I have more "faith" in humanity than to say the majority would continue to deny the truth of something when there is lots of compelling evidence. Billions don't dispute lots of old ideas that have been refuted due to evidence, like the earth being a sphere, the center of the solar system being the sun, etc. Assuming the best of people is better than assuming the worst, which ironically sounds like something Christ would have said.
I suggest we put our money and invest in that area to see what it really is! If this would cement the truth of the book of mormon! but if this is just speculation then.. it won't cement anything..
banger
Atlantis and the city of enoch are most likely the same in my thinking anyhow
Yu pronounce good Spanish
ATLANTIS? Dream on
dawg ive read the book of mormon several times and ive never caught this city they named jerusalem.
It was North America. Not Guatemala.
nope. No north flowing river and many other problems.
@@JD-pr1et pray about it.
@@kingdave1 I have, it's not the heartland.
@@JD-pr1et Hope this helps:
"a land of promise".."a land which I have prepared" (1 Nephi 2:20)
"a land which is choice above all other lands" (2 Nephi 1:5)
"shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the Gentiles shall be blessed upon the land. (2 Nephi 10: 11)
"And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles" (2 Nephi 10: 12)
"And I will fortify this land against all other nations." (2 Nephi 10: 13)
@@kingdave1 Yes. There are some passages that point directly to modern America as well as the entire two continents as the entire land of Joseph as well as describing the limited geography of the Nephite and Lamanite lands.
However, as there is no river flowing to the north, no raised roads, no sufficient populations during the times of the text, no volcanos active there and no earthquakes at the time of Christ's death in the area, only wet and dry seasons, distances way to large for what the text notes, etc. the Heartland model fails against the text.
Why didn't you tell the viewers that everything they pulled up out of the lake has been verified to NOT be related to any of the people groups in the BOM, but rather to ancient Mayans? It just sounds like you don't care about the actual truth, but rather you just want to create vague assertions to cover the glaring lack of historic evidence for the BOM.
Sorry buddy, but the nephites and lamanites did not span further than North America.
Lol your contradiction comes from modern researchers who probably think the earth is billions of years old, even though the scriptures say otherwise, and it's accompanied by an "IF this is true" statement. I'm on the believing side 😊
And this is why I maintain that the Heartlanders are the flat-earthers of the Mormon world.