Brian Zahnd's False Gospel and Fake Jesus
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- I recently read Brian Zahnd's book "Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God" and discovered concerns with his theology, his view of Jesus and his teaching on the gospel itself. In this video I will go over specific passages of scripture which Zahnd has misinterpreted and offer an explanation of why his version of Jesus does not match the Jesus we read about in the Bible. I'll also deal with Zahnd's extensive use of rhetorical tactics of shaming those who don't hold his view and straw manning the position of biblical Christianity. Brian Zahnd functions more strongly as a rhetorician and poet than a theologian but I'm going to try and bring clarity to exactly where his gospel goes wrong and why his Jesus is really just a mirror image of Brian Zahnd rather than the true Jesus. Please share this content with anyone you know who may need to hear it.
The best way to recognise a fake dollar bill is not by studying fake bills but by studying the original. Keep reading and studying the bible yourself to recognise false teachings. Thank you Mike for your insights.
As a banker, I approve this message!
Gavin, this is simply incorrect. The hyper-individualism post Enlightenment and Reformation, has contributed to the defective and circular view of Sola scriptura. This paradigm necessarily creates the incessant schism we see in Protestant circles. Folks will join or create a church based entirely on their personal interpretation of the scriptures. This does not necessarily get you to the truth of any matter. We simply do not see this in the early church. What we see is a conciliar paradigm in Acts 15 carried out in Acts 16:4 and schism is not an option because interpretive Authority does not rest with the individual.
@gavin s. the problem is that we don't have the originals which the Bible is based on to study only conflicting copies. Which is one of the main reasons there are so many conflicting religions.
Only with new original scripture and revelation can this problem be solved which would, as Paul clearly said, require a new modern prophet. Otherwise we are only left with private interpretation.
@@lukesteele4510 check the Dead Sea Scrolls, which match up with the early versions of the Holy Bible still with us that were translated from the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. As well, God is omnipotent, which means He has the power to have His word delivered to us exactly as He had it written down in the beginning - if He couldn't do that, He wouldn't be the God who created the universe. He wouldn't be much of a god at all. Interpretation comes through help, available at any time just for the asking, from the Holy Spirit.
@@CanadianOrth What religion are you that you shun Sola Scriptura? The Bible itself says not to add anything to it nor take anything away from it. It's all we need, and there is only one Author, God Himself, who only used the hands of men to put down His inspired (God-breathed) words. Why should we need anything else besides the Bible alone? Personal interpretation with guidance from the Holy Spirit is all that's needed. He is always there for us! What a huge gift that is!!
So I just started reading his book sinners in the hands of a loving God. Then after 2 1/2 hours in he stated to change the message of the cross. At first I said ok. I’ll keep listening. 15 mins after that, He admitted to debating with people. I then put the book down and found this video! Thank you 🙏🏾
@@TheSierriacoates that’s an excellent book!!! It’s not perfect but no one’s theology is perfect. He a lot further along in understanding the Word of God (Jesus) than most of the church in the west. The thing is folks in the west are arrogant. There is a whole world of Christianity out there and no where besides the west do they hold to the penal substitutionary atonement. It’s actually a fairly new doctrine about 500 years old. It’s the doctrine of men. John Calvin to be exact.
This is why people need to do their homework.
Yes. Which mike has not done.
@@aaronkrohn2195 Pls. explain. Thanks.
Ella Maria Tomas Hi. I just think if you read Zahnd. The Bible. Study church history. Particularly 1st century, pre Constantine and pre Calvin you’ll see mike is holding onto something more Calvin & “American” than biblical. My opinion. xo
OK, its been 2 years now and the more homework I do, the more I find myself thinking this Brian Zahnd guy has some very good points.
If you feel that way, I want to say you are deceived. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. You may have greatly misunderstood Scripture. He is anti-biblical. Jesus himself quoted from the OT all the time and shared it was true. That alone puts Brian Zhand in the position of being wrong. He may share SOME truth with a bunch of misinformation. Satan does this often to decieve. With love, man.
I just started my walk with Jesus.. & im sticking with mike's bible study
Welcome to the family. Mike is a great pastor to receive your pastorship.
Mike believes in Christmas, and in halloween.
Who follows All gods will? Including the new covenant? As jesus fulfilled
I wish I had Mikes teaching when I started my walk... you have some of the richest most in depth teaching I’ve ever come across ...
Another to look at is Charles Swindoll. Chuck has help me tremendously during my walk.
@Watcher in the Woods ,
What "proves" GOD??? GOD keeping His covenant promises.
Please explain away a GOD promise that was originally made (2 Samuel 7:12-16, 931-722 BC) at least 722 years B.C., then that same promise expanded upon (Psalms 89:27-37, 1410-450 BC, and Jeremiah 33:14-22, 586-570 BC) at least 450 years BEFORE Jesus Christ was even born - that He fulfilled 450 years later in Matthew 16:18 resulting in 2,000 and ongoing years of "proof":
www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
catholicexchange.com/church-new-israel
Is this another "accident" to an "accidental" believing atheist or Jew or Protestant OR something "divine" proving the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH is the "ONE TRUE FAITH"???
Which???
,
Goodness gracious.
Let we forget, Satan convinced Eve by asking "did God really say...?"
@Brad Bowers We must equally be weary, for satan tempted our lord by saying "it is written".
I got trust issues from everyone saying " but mum said" or "but my mum said" its unreal as always though God uses that for good and I'm thankful that that happened now and I persevered through the rough times of "but the bible says this its evil" (I dont have the full thing yet just new tes) just off of the "yeah someone prolly lied" attitude.
Praise God man, praise God
@@Josiah-Andrews he said It is written.....while twisting said scripture.
@@Josiah-Andrews And Jesus responded with "It is also written" and then a correction within the scripture of the twisting of scripture the satan had attempted. Quoting scripture correctly is very good and right.
I found Zahnd during a Calvinism/Arminianism debate on UA-cam. I followed him for a while, but he continually said things that made me curious because he would talk about how the Bible isn't God, but I know that most of the information we have about God and Jesus come from the Bible. He kept directing me to his forthcoming book "Sinners in the hands..." and so when it came out, I read it. And it made me angry. When I got to his argument about Joshua I almost put the book down forever. This video has helped me to flesh out a lot of the issues I have with Zahnd in a concise and well-articulated way. Great analysis.
So he’s pretty much saying don’t read and trust the Bible but read and trust his book and his opinions 🙄
He’s setting up disciples after himself and attempting to replace Christ and God’s message with his own.
Are the Bible and God the same?
@@SeruhGee No. They are not. But if we believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, and that it is accurate in all that it endeavours to teach, then we cannot simply wipe away the parts we don't like as "not God", while keeping the parts we do like as "actually God". We need to wrestle to truly understand what is being reported, with its literary style, genre, historical context, and the progressive revelation of Christ at the fore. Zahnd, while a nice guy, seems to take easy shortcuts, rather than actually face down things he wishes weren't there. That's my take. :) God bless.
@@SeruhGee - The Bible is God revealing to us who He is , His characteristics , what has been created for us , His intial plan for us , mankinds fall from grace , what our sin problem is , the way back to him , His future plans to finally deal with all of mankind once and for all , etc , etc , so yes , I for one believe the Bible and God are the same , in that God is Sovereign of of the universe , and creator of it , and the Bible is His revelation to us ,, Jesus being the main theme through out the entire book . The Old Testament is full of typologies of Him and the New Testament is His story .. God Bless You Sister Sarah Marie
Great video Pastor Mike! Very informative as always! Zhand and ppl like him are lost! Only a lost person could come up with his theology. And he is also cursed-Galatians 1:8 and 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.
Zahnd has been bothering me for a few years now. Some influential Christians here in Australia think he's excellent, but I've always had an issue with his teaching. Very glad to see he's been "Winged" here, top job Mike.
He is excellent
@@Adesupzy Hard pass. His critique of the atonement relies on strong misunderstandings of trinitarian theology. And as Mike shows, he doesn't interpret scripture very well.
@@nathanguy981 Have you ever read the church fathers that gave us Trinitarian theology? They sound more like Brian Zahnd than today's evangelicals and Mike misinterpretes scriptures as well, he reads through the lens of an evangelical.
@@Adesupzy They don't sound more like Zahnd! Because Zahnd doesn't sound like scripture, whereas Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin etc quoted the NT at length and deferred to its authority. Can you give examples of where Mike misinterprets scripture?
@@nathanguy981 Then you have not read Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa etc. The gospel/atonement was never described legally like how Mike and most evangelicals describe. This started with Martin Luther and the reformation era.
I have recently been confronted with progressive Christianity in the form of a few “pastors” who are part of a local organization I am part of. This video is very helpful for me to recognize their straw man arguments and the way they are twisting Scripture to agree with their version of Jesus. It is very difficult to refute them when they have seminary degrees and I do not. Thank you for helping me to sort through their confusing statements.
It's easy to refute then...you have the truthful spirit of God, they have cemetery, I mean seminary knowledge.
I love how God works! You said in the intro how ‘maybe this will help someone 4-5years from now that is researching this guy’ and that is exactly what has occurred. Thank you for your faithfulness. This was extremely helpful in explaining a shift that has occurred in someone we know that listens to him.
I also am listening to this to understand the beliefs of someone I know.
Oh crap, I just posted before I started reading through the comments. I guess we are all here for the same reasons..
@@rocsalt956 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
@@kristalsea thank you for that Scripture..I needed to be reminded of that
Me too! I was researching what happens to people who embrace contemplative practices after learning about John Mark Comer.
I have a number of friends who are enthralled with this kind of teaching. They love Zahnd, Peter Enns, and Rachel Held Evans. These teachers allow them to make the gospel about social justice rather than sin and redemption. Thank you for your video! I've shared it with one of my friends about to read his book and pray God will use it to open his eyes.
Is Jesus not addressing issues when he was on earth?
Social justice is about sin and redemption.
Huh, that's funny, because the Bible I read and the story it tells has EVERYTHING to do with social justice.
Isaiah 1:17 (NIV): "Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow."
Matthew 25:40 (NIV): "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'"
Luke 4:18-19 (NIV): "The Spirit of the Lord is on me because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
Proverbs 31:8-9 (NIV): "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."
James 1:27 (NIV): "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."
Those are just a few I guess. So maybe instead of criticizing a message/idea you are scared of, you should instead just check out Brian's books for yourself and learn how to read the Bible correctly.
This statement is EXACTLY true! "Brian Zahnd functions more strongly as a rhetorician and poet than a theologian" I went to his church for several years in the late 90's and am just disgusted with his elitism and shaming of everyone who doesn't "get him" or is not at his supposed intellectual level. And a little closer to home, he has no interest in involvement of his local community or shepherding his flock. He is more interested in marketing to his social media base. His gospel is not to the poor, downtrodden, or uneducated because if you are not on his supposed intellectual level then you just don't understand and are a xenophobe or any other number labels he puts on others. I can't hear anything he says without hearing the scripture ring in my ear "professing to be wise, they became as fools"
Joe - this is a bold and well-written statement. And you are 100% right.
He doesn't speak to his "flock" unless one is in the "elite" group.
💯%
I've not been exhaustively exposed to Zahnd, but I suspect I've heard enough to generally understand his postion. And, Mike, it seems to me you've got an awful lot of starwmans yourself. Not five minutes in and you've already mischaracterized what I've heard and understood him to say twice. He has a unique way of understanding scritpure, a different symantical presupposition perhaps, not one I always agree with, but to prop him up as some kind of blasphemous heretic seems hugely unfair. As someone who was not raised a Christian, and who frequently reaches out to other non-christians (I live in the most godless state: VT), his characterization of American Christian tropes and attitudes is essentially dead on. My Christian friends, even you on occasion, talk the way he characterizes. His message is one that emphisizes Christ. Too many christians do, say, or behave in very un-Christ like ways, all under the justification of biblical scripture. Im not even sure how you could throw Zahnd under the bus without implicating most of eastern world Christianity as heretical. This highly Americanized application and understanding of scriptire decries heresy and blasphemy WAY too often. Happily we dont burn anyone at the stake anymore for misunderstanding such things, but it makes me wonder whether you would have advocated it or not. Your understanding and interpritation of scripture comes from those who literally burned "heretics" at the stake over the pettiest of differences. Im not saying that means you are wrong theological because of the violence of reformers, but--damnitall--if it doesnt cause you some pause. I for one, who became christian under the typical blanket of American conservative evangelicalism, find it unbelievably refreshing to hear messages that focus on God's love made clear through Christ, the exact image and nature of God. Penal substitutionary atonement THEORY is not a gospel staple, nor is believing the bible is inerrant. Christ is the gem of our salvation, not a perfect understanding of atonement. And praise God for that.
How do you even know what Christ-like is if you don't look to Scripture? It is scripture that should guide our beliefs not whatever you or Mr Zahnd wishes were true. The Bible describes the Lord as a just God and that there will eventually be punishment for those who reject God. To obfuscate or sugar coat that biblical truth is wrong and unhelpful to people who want to follow the Christ of the Bible.
Why do you think they killed Gods Prophets? His Apostles, disciples, Christ? The reformers who were burned and strangled?
@@User_Happy35 yeah, I don't disagree with any of that. Not sure why you think I would in light of what I actually said, and not what you assume I believe.
@@jomayo1678 many reformers were guilty of murder. Full stop. I'm not going to take my theological cues from men who burned women alive to suppress the plague... Scripture is going to shape my understanding of God and His nature, not men of history. I'm happy to have their help and wisdom when it conforms to what I do know about scripture, but I won't be even the least bit troubled if we disagree.
100%
I haven't read the whole review, but PSA is not held by many solid Christians. Many have held ransom theory and Christus Victor
Many American Christians aren't even aware there are other theories!
Thanks Pastor Mike - Another awesome teaching - It's getting scary out there in Christendom - "A text, out of context, is a pretext for error"
Debate me on the doctrine of Eternal Torment, please. I've tried for the last 3 years to find someone willing to defend this non-Biblical doctrine to no avail. If it's really part of the Gospel please, PLEASE prove it.
Haha man we both here
Yes this! Amen 🙏
I’ve watched your reviews before and saw this video addressing Brian Zahnd’s theology.
I had never heard of Brian Zahnd in my life until about a month ago, the pastor mention Brian Zahnd’s book “When everything is on Fire.” What little he said in the sermon seemed to make sense, but then I listened to some UA-cam videos with Brian Zahnd (to better understand Zahnd’s premise in the book). While I couldn’t articulate what I felt, nothing Zahnd said in those videos resonated with me. NOW I KNOW WHY. THANK YOU for alerting me.
God bless your ministry!
Mike, have Brian on for an interview. I'm sure he would love to discuss. Additionally, Brian's views are not far from the theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church. If your view is that the Eastern Orthodox Church also preaches a false gospel and false Christ, that's super bold...
I heard that from someone else, but have seen no evidence for it from the Orthodox Church. Could you provide evidence? Thanks.
Misdirection and deflection won't refute what Mike just laid out very clearly to be facts of heresy and false gospel. Also the only relevance that statement would have is that the Eastern Orthodox Church, if what YOU are saying is true, ABSOLUTELY is preaching a false gospel and false Christ. No biblically sound Christian would disagree.
@@talonkarrde3630The Orthodox Church is THE Church. It is the pillar and ground of truth.
@@bradleyperry1735no, it's not
@@ryanprosper88 It is. Unbroken Apostolic Succession and the Holy Spirit.
You should listen to Brian Zahnd and draw your own conclusions. This gentleman is deeply mistaken
Hi Bruno, is really like to hear from you on this. Where did I get Zahnd’s views wrong? Where did I misquote or misrepresent him?
It seems to me that many people have responded to my critique as if I don’t understand Brian or got his views wrong. But none of them have shown me where I did so. It’s not enough to say he is nice or that he really loves God and loves people. We need to deal with doctrine and teaching, not the unseeable heart of the man.
Mike, I’m so sorry for the late response... I’m a horrible UA-camr, but don’t want to be that guy who makes a simple comment and hide;
I think you are very much attached to the conservative view of the Bible, based on your American religious tradition. I feel fear of the unknown, of deconstruction of what you see as the monoliths of your faith. I see you trying as hard as you can to give logic (a pretty human impulse) specially to justify what sacrifice means to you. We can obviously agree to disagree, and I appreciate the opportunity to comment here. Since I have no doubt you and you’re listeners are among the saints, we can surely have a much deeper conversation (along with Brian) in the heavenly mansions one of these days 😀
@@MikeWinger here's an example: @ 41:42 - accusing him of the "worst kind of blasphemy" when describing Zahnd's view of the atonement (I think he primarily believes Christus Victor). I agree his view is too narrow here, (I believe Christus Victor AND Penal Substitution are BOTH found in scripture - does that make me a heretic?) One issue I have with your critique is that I find your view is too narrow also. I have only heard you promote Penal Substitution, and not only that, you equate it with THE gospel... which would lead me to the conclusion that if someone does not agree that PS 'is the gospel', you would claim they are not a Christian. Maybe I heard you wrong, not sure.
@@ObvdocdiDeconstruction of the truth by people like Zahnd should be feared. And Mike gets the meaning of sacrifice from Scripture, not what it means to him or from modern sentiments like Zahnd does
This is an embarrassing critique of Zahnd's work. Mostly because you perpetually say things like he doesn't engage in "biblical Christianity" or suggest that he's reluctant to teach from the Bible. I'm sorry my guy... but not only do you shamefully mischaracterize Zahnd's reverence for scripture and his long time ministry as a pastor, but you also are propping up a presupposition that you are the final authority on what is and is not real Christianity. I'm sorry... but you do not have all the answers. No one does. And Zahnd would probably agree that he doesn't either! Grace is a virtue.
I can see that you are super well-versed in scripture and very intelligent. You also care deeply about finding truth in the Bible. I admire all those qualities in you. But I think you need to be more mindful of the way you describe the theologians you review. Questioning their calling or the legitimacy of their ministry based on YOUR understanding of scripture is a dangerous path. Debating ideas is fine. Saying things like, "this is so unchristian" or "this is a cult" is very narrow-minded. Christianity includes hundreds if not thousands of different faith traditions that interpret scripture differently. It is quite unhelpful and borderline counterproductive to the gospel when you just dismiss things as not "biblical christianity".
I would hear and obey your criticisms if not for a few considerations.
1. I am not pretending I have all the answers. That criticism is odd.
2. I am not setting myself up as the authority. I am only acknowledging the authority of Jesus and the Bible.
3. Your views are in direct conflict with the plain sense of the New Testament. Your criticisms of me would literally cast out large portions of Scripture as well as direct teachings of Jesus. If we can’t say “Christianity is THIS and is not THAT” then we need to go back and tell Jesus and the apostles how terribly wrong they were. We also need to rebuke them for calling out false teachers.
It sadly comes down to this; Zahnd is a false teacher on issues central to the faith and those who will let the Bible be the Bible are going to have to recognize him as such.
@@MikeWinger Thank you for outlining your response. I really appreciate the back and forth.
Regarding your first point, there are multiple times in this video where you draw very hard lines on ambiguous topics. For example, you say he’s a rhetorician and not really a theologian. Exactly what credentials is he lacking to give you the ability to make such a sweeping statement about someone’s work and ministry? Zahnd has been in pastoral ministry for over 40 years, written exceptional books on theology and the Bible, and regularly travels the globe teaching on his theological perspective. Not a theologian? According to you, maybe. But you just dismiss him as a rhetorician and a poet, not really a theologian. It just rubs me the wrong way.
Regarding point number two: Having read much of Zahnd’s work, he would agree and say the same thing himself. His authority is Jesus and the Bible, for the Bible is our primary revelation of Jesus. No difference. Your whole “Jesus Zahnd” thing completely misses his point about his process for interpreting the OT in light of Jesus. It’s also in poor taste-borderline ad hominem stuff.
And finally, this whole “plain sense of the New Testament” is a fantasy. Otherwise why would there be so many faith traditions within the umbrella of Christianity? Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Pentecostalism, Anabaptism, etc… Are all the priests, teachers, and pastors of these traditions false teachers? Again, I have no problem with your form of debating the scriptures and trying to find the way to the best understanding of scripture as you can. But be careful not to isolate yourself on a theological island by calling everyone else a heretic.
And I think that last point is my main point. Zahnd does not exist in a vacuum. He did not come up with these ideas either. His influences are diverse and many across the spectrum of Christianity. Debate his ideas… that’s fine. False teacher? C’mon man… Unless you also plan to call N.T. Wright a false teacher too, then I think this name calling does nothing for purposes of spreading the gospel.
@@MikeWingerThe Orthodox Church disagrees with much of your interpretation of the Scriptures, so yes, you are setting yourself up as an authority.
@@MikeWingerthank you for clarifying questions I had over his teachings.
I see many members of his church in the comments, and I get the reasons that are coming out in force to defend his teachings.. he's charismatic as hell.
If i didn't want to make a change ..if I wanted to remain comfortable living a sinful life.. I would choose his church. I would love his teachings.
As someone who's actively seeking Christ.. my intuition says run.
Well said @thekongqueror9788....thank you
Listened to Brian Zahnd being interviewed on the bad Christian podcast. Nothing he said in that interview seemed heretical or out of the realm of Christianity. Does he have some different views? He does. But, he said in no uncertain terms he believes in the risen Christ.
I get what you’re saying Curtis but I worked hard to get quite from him and read his whole book in context. I know I’m representing his views in ways he may not like but I believe I am representing them very accurately.
Mike, I’m surprised that you hadn’t been more exposed Jonathon Edward’s sermon. It was required reading for me in public high school. Because of this, I always thought it was classic literature that shaped our country.
It did shape our country.
I would too disagree that is has not shaped our culture. Dante has showed our views of hell much more than the Bible has as well. Similar to Edwards sermon. It was radical then and radical now.
I heard it for the first time, a few years ago. I love it!! (But I also have no problem being reminded of my sinful nature, or Hell).
I'm in my late thirties and we definitely read this sermon in public school when I was growing up
It’s a great sermon!
I’d never noticed before you went over it, that the reason the slaveowner is not punished in Ex. 21:21 when the injured slave survives is because the punishment in v. 19 for injuring a freeman was to compensate him for his lost income. But that wouldn’t make sense for the slave because the slaveowner is the one who lost income while his slave couldn’t work. That section makes much better sense now. 🤔
Why do you spend so much time and energy trashing a brother. He has helped a lot of people. Including me.
Mike's not trashing anyone. He is disagreeing with Brian biblically, and does so very graciously.
Wow, informative. Context is key. I really want to learn more so I can't be manipulated.
Zahnd does quite a solid job with context
He does not come close at all. Did you watch the video? If so, what are your points of criticisms? Thank you.
By responding like this you are doing the very thing that you accuse Zahnd of - picking select verses and ignoring the cultural context. Yes Zahnd says somethings that are maybe over the top but biblicists often ignore the logical ends of many of their arguments that drive Zahnd and others like me to reject or re-evaluate many of the positions that we were taught in our youth. I would disagree that this is a millennial issue. Many of my friends in Canada are re-evaluating the rigid and judgemental spirit of fundamentalism and we are 55 years old and older. Our prayer is that God will direct as we seek Jesus on this. Remember John 1. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God.” Jesus is the Word of God. Blessings to all of you.
Re-evaluating something because it is rigid or you don't like it is a selfishness issue. One of the easiest sins to fall into. He did not pick the verses. Zahnd did. He is going over them. It's of no matter. Multiple lies add up to a person proving to be a liar. Multiple intentional miss directs add up to a false prophet. He has proven Zahnd a false prophet in a big way! False prophets tickle the ears to let you hear what you want to hear! You are attempting to to defend your actions and desires instead of listening to sound teachings proven by both Christ and The Bible. Christ Himself said God's Word is NOT confusing to those in the Holy Spirit.
@@Rescue3EMS What do you suppose people whose ears are tickled by what Zahnd preaches want to hear? Is the emphasis on a"Loving God" who asks disciples to take up the cross and absorb violence and evil rather than raining justice upon those who've hurt them what tickles peoples ears? It doesn't seem like the most intuitive message to tickle man's ears with. As fallen beings we are so prone to hate, anger and revenge that a call to follow in the footsteps of a God who resisted not evil even unto death would not be an intuitive way to tickle ears. So I ask, what am I missing? You say he's tickling ears. What in particular is he appealing to? Discipleship of the sermon Jesus preached on the Mount and lived through to his unjust and shameful murder appears difficult, not something to tickle ears with.
I wish I were a better writer, I'm trying to ask, what do you suppose Brian Zahnd is trying to do if not get people to live as disciples of Jesus?
If the Christian and Muslim women example was represented accurately, then I'd say the tickling in the ear is that being good more than makes up for being sinful. That being sinful isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
Zahnd literally said Jesus asked him what does the passage mean. This guy cannot be trusted
Rescue3EMS - Amen 🙏🏼 Psalm 138:2 KJB
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Straw man videos are the best. So are videos refuting historical church theology that originated 1900-1600 years before you were born.
It isn’t Brian you’re battling with: your battling for your right to a bastardized narrative of the gospel, and it doesn’t work.
Which are the oldest Christian traditions? Have you studied the early church fathers?
If you haven’t looked at them for real, you’re just another Protestant with disconnected, discombobulated ideas about Jesus + the gospel.
This is not intended as a slam on you, but it is sad to think how many people you’re going to keep in fear of “God’s Wrath” and either conditional love or unpredidictable (mutable) character.
Have a conversation with Brian.
I have read both "Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God" by Zahnd and "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Edwards (who was in fact a very influential pastor during the great awakening church period in America, maybe obscure to some now but nonetheless still influential for generations of churched people). I found many of the quotes you share from the book to be taken out of context, and also the clip you share, which is very misleading. From the beginning of the video before even discussing what's in the book, you have already labeled it a bad book and Zahnd a false prophet who is attacking you and people like you. You do this repeatedly in the beginning and throughout the video claiming that Zahnd is attacking you, and in your defensive posture, I think you totally miss the points he is making in the book. If you don't agree with him, fine, but taking quotes out of context and attacking his character before you even get started doesn't seem a very fair critique. I like to look at ideas from different perspectives, and would appreciate a more balanced approach. How about we just look at the ideas presented and debate those?
Yes how about we do that? Can you name anything specific Mike mentioned or are you upset about his tone?
Have you interviewed him and asked to meet with him on your show - to discuss this?
So if it's not "a dark dungeon of eternal torture" is it a nice luxury apartment with a hot tub where sinners are tormented day and night? What term would you use?
Hell is separation from the presence of God. So what does that mean? Well for starters: what is in the presence of God or what comes from God? Justice, love, beauty, grace...just to name the most famous few. Everything that is good and true is absent. I personally cannot imagine anything worse and I've been through some pretty nasty things in my life.
@@siren3849 But Paul said nothing can separate us from the love of God. So you're saying Paul was wrong?
@lorenrosser9702 8n the context of the actual letter, Paul is speaking to and about those who have already been redeemed/saved. I'm not of the opinion that salvation can be lost either. I suppose anything could seem like a gotcha without reading it in context though. So, yes, if you choose life outside of the presence of God, you get exactly what you asked for.
The way you used Matthew 19 to explain how the law is not actually condoning those behaviors is actually quite similar to the point that Zahnd is making in that clip. He is not in any way trying to make a case for throwing out the Old Testament but is simply conveying that we need to stop and think about it in its context
But he does it with deception…
And he absolutely reads lies into the scripture. Mike explains in love, what he feels is being confused by other teachers. There is no comparison between the two men other than that they both are teachers. One just teaches a lie. The other is a humble, loving human, who genuinely wants to see people be saved and grow in their faith, all with nothing but the teachings of the word of God…. They are not the same my friend.
When I was a teenager I went to my good friend’s church to try to get her out of what I thought was a cult. They preached fire and brim stone and scared the ee b Jee bees out of me. ( I was already a believer) I answered their alter call and began balling my head off because I was so convicted of my sin and knew I deserved hell. After I gave my self to the lord I felt so euphoric that I was ready to do whatever they wanted. Which was to obey the elders, never cut my hair, always wear dresses, no swimming with boys....My dad told me he wouldn’t let me go back. I was so mad at him, he finally said that if I waited a few weeks he would reconsider. 2 days later, the feeling was gone and I knew I had been manipulated. I know from experience that part of what brian says is true. Now 40 years later, I volunteered at an evangelical youth group. And the teacher told the kids the gospel and it was so sweet- then he added and you know why else you should except Jesus? ... So you don’t go to hell. He was also telling the kids that their eternal life was depended on them believing the correct doctrine- his interpretation of scripture. Basically it was an insurance policy. There is a lot wrong with modern Christianity and I think it’s important that we listen and learn from people who are trying to reform it. I don’t want to throw out the baby (Jesus) with the bath water. Man I’m getting too old. I hope you know what that idiom means. I don’t think we should be afraid. The gates of hell will not prevail. I don’t think Brian is the enemy or the wolf. Our enemy is Fear, and hate, the things that separate us and keep us from coming together to learn and listen at Jesus feet. Right and left .
Thank you so much for writing this 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 Amen ❤️
There's a lot wrong with Christianity and it's precisely the kind of stuff that Brian Zahnd is teaching. Don't you understand that the wrath of God (that so many people recoil at) was not directed at us, it was directed at Christ, who is God. In other words, God's wrath was poured out on God because of our sin. He stood in our place. And that through Faith in Christ, not only was your sin transferred to Christ, his righteousness was transferred to you. A righteousness you did not have nor were you capable of, and yet God credits it to you as if it were yours. All that God asks from you is to believe that he did this for you and trust that he did this for you on the cross in the person of Jesus Christ. He's not asking you to get your life all straightened out before hand, he's not asking you to do anything but trust him in this. Why is that so difficult to understand? Why would anybody reject that? The reason people reject it is they can't stand the thought that they are completely incapable of securing their salvation through their own effort. In other words, they can't face the fact that they can't "earn" their salvation. there is no reforming the gospel of Jesus Christ, there is only destroying it and in the process stripping man of any hope of salvation. That is what Brian is doing.
Yet Brian throws out Jesus and redemption with the bath water.
I will say one positive thing about Zahnd... He brought me here! 😂
Seriously man, great video. Thank you.
You are awesome! It's a terrible thing when seekers are tricked away from our Lord by false prophets. May the Lord lead them back to the truth. God bless you in your journey to help people understand our Lord's beautiful message!
Loreen: while false teachers who lead others to damnation is indeed reprehensible, never forget what the Bible tells us about the people who follow them. The Bible warns us that people follow false teachers because they cannot abide the Truth and build up false teachers for themselves.
Yes we must pray that The Lord opens their eyes but keep in mind their false beliefs are formed out of rebellion against God rather than innocent ignorance.
@@CC-ee7bj What will happen to Catholics and Jews?? It's breaking my heart!!
@@loreendegenstein5629 : Their place will be in the lake of fire unless they repent of their sins and accept Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior. I have many Catholic family members, my own mother is a Roman Catholic so it breaks my heart too but I have to accept the reality that she has rebelled against God and must face justice if she does not repent by the grace of God.
@@CC-ee7bj Thank you for responding. This has also been in my thoughts. I will continue to include these people in my prayers that they will receive the Lord and turn from the lies they've been taught. God bless!
Let me first say that I enjoy your videos and do appreciate the tone of most of your discussions. My question here, and I don't want to sound antagonistic, is what has provided you the authority to the be arbiter of what is true Christian ideology? Isn't this task assigned to the Holy Spirit, or do you see yourself as simply a vehicle for the H.S. to work through?
"He's demonizing the idea of hell" that sentence made me laugh
But how is it possible to see the idea of hell as anything but super negative?
Mike isn't saying that hell isn't negative, rather he's pointing out that not believing in it's reality BECAUSE it's negative is ultimately rejecting God and His justice as being wholly righteous and good. All that God does is good, and that includes the just punishment of sinners.
Mike blasts Brian’s view, but doesn’t say what his own view is. If eternal torment for being born in the wrong place isn’t Auschwitz-like, then what is it?
Wow. 40 mins in. So many misconceptions and blatant confusion on what zahnd believes. Maybe you should get him on your channel and ask him yourself. Instead of assuming so much of his beliefs out of context of snippets from his book.
I love how he talks about “endless distain” for anyone who doesn’t believe the same as them. Isn’t that what you are doing sir? Sure sounds like distain to me.
Thankful for Brian Zahnd. Thank you for making his work more popular.
Same
If youre thankful for Brian Zhand then youre thankful for mis guided teaching that will ultimately lead you to hell if you dont repent and believe the true Gospel that can save you.
@@MMAD-Rob See this is how we know you guys don’t even believe the evangelical version of the gospel - how would believing in universal reconciliation and/or Christus Victor mean that we would go to hell? That’s not even the qualification in evangelical belief? We would still be justified by faith under your model.
This is a poor representation of what Brian actually believes. I'd recommend actually reading or listening to Brian's works yourself. Make up your own mind. His "version" of the Gospel is basically just the Eastern Orthodox version, which is the oldest in the world. Mike doesn't actually seem to understand most of what Brian writes in his book. Lastly, Mike keeps trying to make it seem like Brian insults people who believe in substitutionary atonement theory, but that isn't even close to the truth. If Mike feels petty for believing in a monstrous God, maybe he needs to think about that some more. Honestly, not sure I can trust a commentator who has never heard of Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, the sermon which basically created the Great Awakening, which in turn created American Christianity.
Yep. Just because Winger puts up hour long videos make his analysis more accurate. And yes Brian’s view is more eastern orthodox, which is yes the oldest as you said. I find that view more consistent with a God of love.
He uses direct quotes from Zahnd. What specifically has been taken out of context?
I would like to know why the Jews who were most familiar with the “0ld Testament” didn’t recognise God when He turned up as Jesus? Is it because they had wrong expectations of who God was based upon their “scriptures”?
I think most american Christians would not recognize Jesus
If only Mike understood the difference between what happens after we die and the warnings Jesus gave to those in Jerusalem about the coming destruction of their Temple, and the end of the Age.
Why don’t you do yourself a favor and invite him to an interview and interrogate the issues you have. That seems more of a manly thing to do, instead of just making a video. Display some degree of integrity man!!!
LOL. They said Jesus blasphemed too. He kept leaving violence out of verses he quoted. He let sinners off the hook. He wouldn't let them make him king. He refused to use force, or endorse it. Made the religious crowds crazy and they picked up stones to kill him. Seems nothing has changed. It's ok. In time you will see how wide, deep, long and high is Christ's love. We will wait for you all to catch up.
Brian Zhand’s church is local to me, but I think you are far overanalyzing or missing the goals of his teaching. If it weren’t for him I probably wouldn’t have any hope in Christianity at all, he is by far one of the most well educated pastors that I know of. I don’t think you’re in a position to call out other preacher’s as being false teachers. Preach your own message, instead of trying to use another preacher as a springboard to notoriety. I think you’ve missed the point completely.
I've noticed recently that when a false teacher or apostate pops up on my social media radar, they tend to have a connection to Brian Zahnd in some regard. I only know him by his (negative) reputation but this video has been very helpful in explaining why he has the reputation he does.
Yikes. Read Zahnd. Listen to him. You may not agree with everything he says but you will see - if you’re paying attention and not pre-judging - he is wise, is well intentioned, humble and well informed. Loves Jesus. Preaches Jesus. Exalts Jesus. Not sure why this gentlemen took so much time to misrepresent him?
Not sure this can be counted as "pre-judging". It was a critique with specific examples. If they were taken out of context you can always provide the full context and explain how Winger is misrepresenting him.
@@megangoldsney8214 right
Well I maintain winger - however well intentioned - demonstrates that he doesn’t “know” Pastor Brian at all. As a result he ends up misrepresenting him. If you disagree cool. I don’t want to talk about it anymore. Seems winger is doing and spreading good - just like Brian Zahnd.
Your comment that “nobody knows” Edwards’s Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God sermon is both historically and contemporarily false. Johnathan Edwards is the MOST well-known American theologian (period.), and his sermons quickened the Great Revival at the outset of America’s history. As a high school and college student in a public (secular) school, I read it twice in American literature courses as an example of ‘Christian American literature’...and saw the faces of all of my classmates sour at its horrendous depiction of Jesus’s Abba. Then, when I went on to study in seminary, we read excerpts of this sermon in a Master’s level church history course, as well as another of Edwards’s books which we were required to read in full. In his book on the most important sermons in American history, evangelical leader Jerry Falwell named it as (you guessed it) #1. The god of Johnathan Edwards is at the root of American evangelical theology; this is traceable through history and verifiable in modern evangelical preaching. If one is to step outside the bubble of Reformed theology, one can see this rather starkly - and one will also recognize Penal Substitutionary Atonement as a 500-year old doctrine (not a 2,000 year old doctrine) that is considered heretical in other, equally viable and important Christian traditions. Unfortunately, your analysis excludes at least millions of Christians from their seat at the communion table of past and present saints.
Matt Harp You seem to be ignoring the fact that the reason penal substitutionary atonement wasn’t articulated so pointedly prior to 500 years ago is because it was shrouded in 1,000+ years of Roman Catholicism, and their view of atonement.
The problem is that Zahnd’s, as well as Rome’s, views are not compatible with Scripture.
It's called hyperbole. Dude, seriously. Thats what you're gonna latch onto?
Not ignoring; just disagreeing! If penal substitutionary atonement is derived from the theologies of individuals such as St. Augustine and St. Anselm (which is usually considered accurate), it seems Roman Catholicism didn’t conceal PSA, it produced it. To call Reformed Christian theology “actual Christianity”, as this reviewer does repeatedly, is truly to ignore 1500 years of people who trusted that, by God’s mercy, they might be delivered out of death. Not to mention those of us after the Reformation who call Jesus Lord but don’t agree with a particular system of biblical interpretation. This point has little to do with theological accuracy though. I am critiquing the exclusive culture of evangelical Christianity evidenced in this video. As a non-Reformed Christian, I am personally hurt by this reviewer’s claim that I and others like me can’t be considered “actual Christians”. For even though I might not accept the dogmatics of Reformed theology, I would still acknowledge Reformed people as Christians, and I worship with many of them.
I'd say Billy Graham and many other theologians have well eclipsed Edwards, but I agree that Winger's lack of familiarity with Sinners in the Hands of an angry God was surprising.
And here is the turning point of the sermon. "And now you have an extraordinary opportunity, a day wherein Christ has thrown the door of mercy wide open, and stands in calling and crying with a loud voice to poor sinners; a day wherein many are flocking to him, and pressing into the kingdom of God. Many are daily coming from the east, west, north and south; many that were very lately in the same miserable condition that you are in, are now in a happy state, with their hearts filled with love to him who has loved them, and washed them from their sins in his own blood, and rejoicing in hope of the glory of God."
"For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices." Jeremiah 7:22
I’ve only listened to the first 5 minutes of this, but you accuse BZ of presenting a strawman. You can disagree with him, but you present a strawman of his beliefs.
I’m confident that I have accurately represented him. I provided numerous quotes and clips to help with this. Brian might respond by saying I misrepresented him but I’d be interested to hear a careful explanation of this which doesn’t involve misrepresenting how I represented him.
Mike, I don't know if you have addressed Assyriologist Dr. Joshua Bowen's responses to you about slavery. You seem to completely disregard Leviticus 25 and numerous other passages along with the historical issues regarding slavery. Doctor Josh goes into such details as beating them with the rod and ownership for life. He knows the ancient languages. You have clearly glossed that issue here.
Also, I find a striking how evangelicals can be such genocide apologists out of one side of their mouth but claim objective moral values out of the other. If something is objectively evil, then God cannot command Israel to do it.
Also, I think you are missing a lot of the Christological base for guys like Brian zahnd, and numerous others, let alone the church fathers and the Orthodox Church.
Agreed
Well said.
Dr. Bowen is an Assyriologist with one published paper who specialized in Sumerian literary and liturgical compositions not the Biblical texts or the biblical languages. And by the way there are many scholars that have dealt with this issue and put it to bed. Norman Giesler, Paul Copan, William Lane Craig etc...
I have truly enjoyed Mike Winger and many of his teachings, but I disagree with Mike regarding Brian Zahnd.
Alex Yar Me, too. I really appreciated his videos on Bill Johnson and the passion "translation", but I follow Zahnd on Twitter, and his tweets sure don't line up with how he's being portrayed by Mike in this video.
Wyatt, read his book. Zahnd is really focused on rhetoric and slogans and you don’t get as much from his tweets as you do from his book because that is where his thoughts are more drawn out and explained. I honestly believe it is a false gospel and a rejection of God’s revealed word in the guise of a new method of interpretation, drenched in emotional rhetoric. I wish I could say less about it and extend the olive branch of “this is an in house debate” but it’s really not. Read his book but ignore for the time being his affirmations of how much he loves the Bible and loves Jesus and focus on what he says about them and the gospel, how he explains them and treats them.
People are more comfortable with the idea that God needs to satisfy his wrath vs a God who is perfect love
@J DV what? Are you kidding me?
'Sinners In The Hands of a Loving God' - easily the best Christian book I've read in many years (& I'm a devoted follower of Jesus of 40+ years standing, a graduate of Bible college & pastor). I think you've put an unjustifiably negative spin on Zahnd's book, Mike, & urge people to read it prayerfully and judge it for themselves. 👍🏻
Are there any specific points you disagree with in this video or is there anything you think Mike misrepresented or omitted?
Jonny, just checking in again. It’s one thing to say that the video put an “unjustifiably negative spin” on the book, but it’s another thing to actually back that up and be even a little more specific. I’d love to hear if there were any specific claims you thought were “unjustifiably negative.” I’ve seen a ton of comments like yours on this video, where people say Mike’s analysis is bad or misrepresentative, but no one’s really said why that is. I’d genuinely love to be educated about it, especially by a pastor. Thanks!
It amazes me how many of Winger's followers say you have to keep studying for yourself and need to do your homework, and then they just take his word for it when he's responding to other Christians or non-Christians. He seems so offended by Zahnd using the word "torture" when talking about hell, and then follows it up by affirming conscious eternal torment. Hey Mike, torture is a synonym for torment. You can act butt hurt about his depictions of hell, but as soon as you define what you (and most Christians) mean by hell, it's a distinction without a difference. It's not a straw man version. I also find it amazing that Winger wants to be taken seriously as a theologian and apologist, and he's never heard Jonathan Edwards "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" sermon. He wants to pretend like most people have never heard this sermon when it's taught in American literature classes in high school and college. I first heard it when I was a sophomore in high school in a literature class. I found this quote on Pastor Dave Durham's blog: "It is read in high school and college classrooms all across the U.S. and because of the imagery, language, and overall content it is often hated and despised." So maybe you should talk to your brother in Christ, Mike. If you're unfamiliar with Jonathan Edwards and the First Great Awakening and the impact that it's had on Christianity in the America, maybe you should stop reading Zahnd, and start reading the history and development of your own faith. Anyways, I could go on and on about Winger's comments. He's so ignorant and dishonest. Just because he seems knowledgeable and honest (I know, I know, he seems so nice) doesn't mean he is. You wouldn't take Joel Osteen's word for it when he lies to you with a smile, so don't take Mike's word for it because he's got a big smile on his face.
One thing has nothing to do with the other.
By the way, to compare the fake smile of Joel Osteen to Mr Wingers genuin smile is ... just say very strange.🤔
Dude....your way off about Brian. I went to church there several years. I am not new to Christianity. You are taking Brian way out of context. He is one of the most humble, true hearted Christians I have ever met. You will have to answer to Jesus for this divide you are causing.
It was good to see that this video has more views than the top 5 Brian Zahnd videos combined when I did a search on UA-cam.
Thank you Mike. A few of my friends fall into the “progressive theology” camp and one in particular has shamed my belief in the Bible actually condemning sin. She would talk about God being “inclusive” and my belief in the Bible being “exclusive” and I knew that was wrong but didn’t know how to respond.
"Get thee behind me satan."
That's because there are absolutes in God's word. In society, there are no longer absolute truths... a child's sexual orientation used to be male or female, but now it is "choose your own", etc.
What a whirlwind we are sowing for our grandchildren!
I’m guessing you don’t agree with NT Wright either?
Certainly he doesn’t. xo
Mike having finished your video based on your representation of Brian's theology leads me to think that his theology seems more accurate than yours.
You really should have had him on to explain for himself because you are making a lot of assumptions about his beliefs and revealing a lot in his beliefs that are your beliefs in fact.
Me thinks that you take offence at other peoples logical and theological fallacies because those are the same fallacies that you use commonly in your presentations.
How can he be making assumptions about a dude's beliefs when he is literally holding the book where he says "This is what I believe, you should believe it to and here's why." *What?*
Mike you are having a rant.
Your are intentioanlly trying paint a bad, hertical picture. You've literally just taken bit and peices out of context to support your own arguement. The irony is your munipulating the words of brian to fit your own agenda, the very thing your accusing him of... lol.
You say he uses rhetorical tatics of shaming those who don't hold his view.. Your entire video is the same thing. You use rhetorical tactics to shame, humliate and disort this man because his veiws go agaisnt yours.. The entire video is ironic...
Mike, clearly your a clever guy, and you know your bible. However the saddest part of your video is the lack of humitly you show through out it. The undertone of this was arogance, as if you've 'arrived' theologically . There was no room in this video for being wrong, room for growth, or perhaps misintepreting his book, or views. Perhaps pull the log from your own eye, before you remove the speck from Brians.
These false teachers like Zahnd are making a killing among young millennials my age because our churches are failing to teach the Bible and answer the doubts planted in their minds with truth.
So thankful for your ministry, Mike. However, it is also sad that some have to tune into youtube to a pastor somewhere in California before we receive both loving and truthful Bible teaching. We need to pray and spread the gospel FIRST in our own churches and to our own young people!
Brian Zahnd is an imbecile and he is not a Christian. He is the leader of a sinful cult.
Only the bible tells us who God is and what He expects from His followers.
@@wrefordjones478 How do you know? You might said the same thing about Apostle Paul. Just remember that by the same token we judge others we will be judged.
@@james64468 We are to contend for the gospel and not even allow someone who brings another teaching into our homes. Discernment is crucial at this time when the falling away is happening Mike is a watchman. There are some but we need more.
@@clouseauthecat181 Well I don't believe or trust anyone. God made me that way. Sure there are some of the churches wears dirty robes. Look I saw the fruit of Brian Zahnd in person. When I was in my teens. One of my youngest sister did a lot of damage to the female bathroom at wolc. He forgave her and didn't even ask my dad to pay for the damage. He does have some good fruit. That happened several years ago. Maybe I do have a soft spot for Brian. How does a good tree produce bad fruit? But there a lot of buildings that are going to be judged. How do you know that mike is a watchman? Let's see if Mike has gone though anything. Because if he don't have experience his word is worthless. Heck I fought Demons no big deal. I have had dreams no big deal. But without love nothing matters. Earlier this year I did a conditional curse on a lady that sought to cause me trouble. I told her that if she tried to cause me trouble she would end up in jail. And it happened last week. Not that I rejoice in such matters. I hope she turns to God and repents and grows in the Lord.
@@wrefordjones478 If by Christian you mean he believes in anything other that what Jesus holds to be true, then probably not. And that would be a good thing...
I don't think you're being fair with Zahnd. When he says that Johnathan Edward's sermon shaped American theology, that is just true. This is one example of being honest with this criticism. Another is how when I say "this is how to be honest" to not immediately jump to the conclusion that I called you a liar.
@Brad Bowers Who cares that his other sermons weren't like that. It's a horrible sermon that deeply moved the needle in American theology.
If anyone thinks Edwards shaped anything in American theology needs to do some research. Nothing he said in his sermon wasn't said centuries before he was born.
@@darthmcgee2216 So, America can't be shaped by something that was said before?
I would LOVE to debate you Mike about your view of PSA and esp your misunderstanding of Hebrews in regards to sacrifice.
Crickets
I lost it when he came to the part about "Becky" the probably white Christian woman. Don't be a Becky guys! hahaha! Love you Pastor Mike! :D
The Luke 12:4 verse was the turning point for me. When I read that I realized my need for Jesus' salvation. People say "you can't scare into heaven" in a way that's true if that was your exclusive info about the gospel but it is a part of it. I was suddenly enlightened to my peril. I consider this my "life verse" essentially the one that made everything click for me.
Thanks Mike for your thorough and patient handling of this issue. I am one of those listening after many years of releasing this video. I have people I'm very concerned about in my life that are being taken in by this man's teaching.
Me too..
Good job, brother. You nailed Zahnd's tactics. Up here in Canada he is gaining support in part because of his Canadian buddy, Bruxy Cavey. Keep up the good work.
I find Brian Zahnd to be someone who has experienced the grace and mercy of Christ, It's evident in his gentleness and his Christ centered interpretations of the Bible.
I am discouraged to hear not that you disagree with your brother on some theological points but in your snarky, accusatory, phariseeical disregard for the character of your brother and for your brother himself. This tone is very religious. It's very evangelical but it doesn't sound like Jesus at all to me.
I know my shepherd's voice. It's gentle. It's kind. It's full of mercy and grace. It's peaceful and not agitated especially concerning those who seek him.
Remember that Satan is called the accuser. Let's be gentle with our fellow seekers and let's be humble when it comes to thinking we have all the answers all buttoned up. Listen, pray, discern and certainly teach what you believe to be true but keep learning. Keep thinking. Keep seeking. None of us have all the answers yet.
Jesus called Pharisees serpents and vipers did he not? He called Peter Satan at one point, correct? Mike did a great job going point by point on this. It seems you have crafted your own personal Jesus who was always Disney channel mild and sweet to everyone 24-7. Do you think if Jesus had heard the way this Pastor bashes and attacks the OT he would have smiled and been cool with it?
I agree. Mike is projecting a lot here
Most conservative Christian churches today are all about reserving your place in heaven after you died. You have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven, otherwise you are bound to tell automatically. This was NOT Jesus's gospel!
You spend so much time accusing Zahnd of making a "strawman" that you don't see you've done the exact same thing. While you certainly make some good points (and while Zahnd certainly has many issues), you have completely misrepresented most of his views in what appears to be an effort to do exactly what you accuse him of doing: shame and scare people into believing your interpretation of God and the Gospel. I don't know if that's intentional, but it certainly comes across that way.
Most of the points he raised in this book, along with his numerous sermons and podcasts available on here, are issues that Christians have struggled with since Christians were a thing. The Bible is not as perspicuous as you often portray it. There are ambiguities, competing thoughts and ideas, throughout the text.
In fact, you actually support one of Zahnd's points (accidentally, I'm sure). Leviticus 25 is very clear that the Israelites could buy and sell people, keeping them as "property" forever:
44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
This is not "case law" like the Exodus example; this is a clear directive from the mouth of God (see Lev. 25:1). Is it morally good to own other people as property? In this video, you say no. In other words, you would agree that a thirteen year old in 2018 America has a better moral view of slavery than the Old Testament, correct?
You also cite Jesus on divorce. Jesus directly contradicted written Jewish law on divorce. Would you not say that a thirteen year old in 2018 America, following Jesus' example, has a better moral view of divorce than the text of Deuteronomy 24?
This is one of Zahnd's main arguments (also set forth by Greg Boyd et al): the Old Testament is still a record of the words and works of God, and it is absolutely necessary as it points and leads us to Christ. However, it also has to be understood as written to a certain people at a certain time. Christ made this clear in Matthew 19. God, for reasons known only to Him, met the Israelites where they were, in their time and culture, and slowly drew them forward with the Law. Then His full and final revelation of Himself was given in Christ. As John repeated, no one had seen God at any time; Christ revealed the Father's true heart and nature in a way that the OT simply couldn't.
THAT is Zahnd's overarching point. All of scripture (and history for that matter) has to be viewed through the lens of Christ. We can't understand who God is apart from Christ. Looking at the OT without a Christ lens gives the picture of a monster "god" that is absolutely not accurate. This is the "straw man" you've accused Zahnd of setting up, but for many of us it is the lived reality of American Christianity. We've been fed a picture of an angry, vengeful God. Sit in a Southern Baptist church sometime; this is the picture that you're given.
Zahnd is a necessary corrective for these problems. The Church has lost its way somewhere down the line. While Zahnd certainly goes too far in several respects, I implore you to actually listen to his overarching points.
Very well said...
Wonderfully said!
Kayla Roszelle Don’t feel the need to only follow one tribe. Follow Jesus.
@@kroszelle What about reading the Bible (a good translation like a KJV or NLT) and analysing on your own what that Zahnd guy says :) ?
What is the overarching point? - If the basic Gospel is corrupted what else is there to talk about? Basic Gospel: Jesus died for everything I (and everybody else) did wrong and rose on the third day, so that if I trust in him and turn away from my sin I will inherit the everlasting life instead of burning in hell forever. If that Zahnd guy preaches a different one (as Mike points out), he is occursed. I wouldn't trust an occursed Zahnd or anyone else with my (everlasting) life. What about you?
Hey Mike, always enjoy your commentary and critiques! Could you do one on Rob Bell?
Pete Ohlinger
Not the Pope of Emergent Heresy! 😉
>
Rob would absolutely destroy Mike. Rob actually knows his stuff.
@@jasonspencer8558 doubt it. Just because you just said that, i can see what fruit your tree springs. Think about that. You probably wont, but i hope you do.
@@darnellpistachio2991 You obviously have no idea how well-studied Rob is. And how ill-studied Mike is. I have nothing to think about here. You have plenty. You don't know me or anything about my "fruit".
I just finished your whole video and it was outstanding outstanding we as believers need this info. Also new believers can be deceived so easily because of this man. Thank you for bringing this to our light Mike God bless you❣️❣️❣️❣️❣️
This discussion raises some interesting questions for me: how important is adherence to a belief in Penal Substitutionary Atonement? Is this view of atonement an essential? Can we have proper fellowship with people who adhere to different views of atonement (such as Ransom Theory, Christus Victor, etc.)?
Yes, you can (fellowship with others who hold a different view), but the downside to not embracing PSA is that it downplays the severity of sin and God's holiness. Not believing sin must be paid for and the all-supreme value is love results in the position that certain behaviors are not sinful and that love cover it, and you can pretty much figure out what behaviors I'm referring to.
Yes. We can. NT Wright is not a progressive and he “agrees” with Zahnd. There’s also a guy named Paul who pre-agrees with Zahnd. Read Romans. The whole thing. Not cherry picked. (Not accusing you of doing that)
@@aaronkrohn2195 So NT Wright does not believe the punishment that should have come upon us, fell upon Jesus, according to Isaiah 53:5 - "punishment for our peace was on him," ???
Tom thinks Jesus takes our sin upon him. It does not follow that god therefore punishes Jesus. With wrath etc. read The Day The Revolution began. First rate biblical scholar - Wright - discussing his speciality: Romans. Have a good one! Also, the English bible has been very perverted - I’m sure you know this - by the theologies of the last 1500 years. Not ALL bad...but: read Wright. And, I think, read Zahnd. And Brad Jersak. James Cone...xo
Aaron Krohn Explain Isaiah 53:5 please.
I actually had to read "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" in high school. It really is just a Puritan sermon doing the whole fear method of saving people all the way through. However, the teacher that made us read it was a Mormon, so I couldn't help but think that he wanted us Southern Baptist kids to read this sermon and start questioning our faith.
Nic Epperson
Jonathan Edwards was a somewhat extreme Calvinist, but if you read "Sinners" it is still orthodox. We are sinners in the hands of an "angry" God (I prefer "just" God but the Bible does speak of God's righteous anger). Of course God is also loving and patient and merciful.
Heretics like Zahnd can't handle that complexity of God and certainly have no respect for His word that is expressed through the Father AND the Son AND the Holy Spirit. All just to feed their need to appease their emotionalism and to fit in with the world. So yes, give me Edward's harsh, one-note sermon over Zahnd's heresies anyday.
@@IAmisMaster Oh yeah I didn't disagree with it on a theological level. Just disagreed with the method, I guess. And I guessed that the teacher thought we would have more trouble reconciling it. So yeah I don't think it's heretical or anything.
@@nicepperson4917 pat yourself on the back?
"Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom."
There is no real wisdom outside of that fear.
Love, "A repentant sinner in the hands of a merciful God."
If i remove repentant, God will remove merciful.
@@nicepperson4917 supposedly Jonathan Edwards preached the sermon in monotone as an attempt to avoid emotionalism.
My high school English teacher read "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" to my class, also. She was a liberal, "we are all children of god", phoney Christian (mainline Protestant church goer) and I think she read it to us for the same reason as your Mormon teacher did, to undermine the Christian kids' faith. Most of the class was Christians of some denomination or another.
Jesus said something about "anyone who causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble"...something about millstones and the midst of the sea...
I recently discovered Zahnd in his new book, "When Everything is on Fire." I find him to be a refreshing, prophetic voice that cuts through the religion and man-made theology permeated Christianity. Flawed theology has corrupted the church of Jesus Christ since the very beginning of the church. This is because anytime "man" get involved with interpreting God, he will screw it up.
Surprised that an apologist would seem as though Jonathan Edwards' sermon "Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God" is rather unknown.
He outed himself as having absolutely no idea what's he's talking about. If he's never heard of that sermon, then he shouldn't be running this channel.
Him and Alisa Childers.
I know this video is not recent but I have been learning more about progressive Christianity from your posts - - binging them lately. I have been very concerned that our church is moving very very quickly in this direction and I’ve been following my pastor’s social media posts very closely. Today he reposted one from this Zahnd guy-that was like a punch in the gut and sure enough… I found this video! I’ve known for a while we need to find a new pastor. This confirms it.
Binging exactly!
Thank you for your critique of Brian Zahnd. Does the Bible actually teach the Father requires a payment (blood sacrifice) before He can forgive? I ask since it appears Brian Zahnd and guys like Greg Boyd are trying to reach apostates who've been disillusioned by penal substitutionary theory. For example, critic Matt Dillahunty says: "...and then you get to a spot where God who’s been demanding that we slaughter animals and burn them because he likes barbecue has now decided that he’s going to come down and take human form and SACRIFICE HIMSELF TO HIMSELF for a weekend fix everything for everybody. That’s blood magic. That is sacrificial blood magic thinking and nothing to do about human value."
I fear that dismissing Zahnd's interpretation of Christ's atonement as a False Gospel and Fake Jesus does more harm to the Body of Christ than it helps. The Christus Victor view of the atonement is held deeply by so many today. Your thoughts? God bless you and your ministry.
I've heard Edward's sermon quoted before in the same way; take snippets from the beginning, portray it as the whole of the thing, then claim that Edward's taught of a monster god. Then one day I actually read the whole of the sermon and find that this is actually laying the ground work for the need of a Savior, a call for repentance, and a call for evangelism. It is a case of I've got some bad news, some bad news, some really bad news, and some good news. You are a sinner, the wages of sin is death, you can't fix it yourself, but God paid the penalty. I recommend giving it a read or giving it a listen - if you are comfortable with mid 18th century English.
Yes, here is the end of the sermon -- "And now you have an extraordinary opportunity, a day wherein Christ has thrown the door of mercy wide open, and stands in calling and crying with a loud voice to poor sinners; a day wherein many are flocking to him, and pressing into the kingdom of God. Many are daily coming from the east, west, north and south; many that were very lately in the same miserable condition that you are in, are now in a happy state, with their hearts filled with love to him who has loved them, and washed them from their sins in his own blood, and rejoicing in hope of the glory of God."
He doesn't just take snippets from the beginning. Try reading Brian's book.
@@jasonspencer8558 Pretty sure I didn't say anything about how this Brian fellow makes use of Edwards. Never heard of him, let alone read his book so who am I to make a comment about him based on the testimony of one witness? No, what I was commenting on was having personally heard others taking Edwards out of context and how his whole sermon is a worthy read. Maybe Brian did this and Winger is in error, maybe he didn't. I don't know, and as I don't know anyone relying on his writings I don't really care ATT. I know the Gospel so what do I need with another commentary? Got enough to read as it is. If I ever hit a point where it actually matters to me, then I will read his book.
@@1smallstep You actually did. You said you've seen Edwards' sermon "quoted this way before". I said, in reply, that maybe you should read the book, since Brian doesn't use it that way.
Mike I'm curious about that book over your right shoulder. Dogmatic Theology... Who is the author? I tried googling it but couldn't find it.
Thanks Kevin.
This was a very enlightening video. Thank you for taking the time to call this guy out.
I watched the first minute of this video quickly a bit ago (i didn't have the time to really start watching it then) and remembered you said Brian Zahnd has a fake gospel. Today for the first time I heard a chapter from one of his books (Unvarnished Jesus) and I was immediately hearing these weird things like "You can go back into the old testament with the Holy Spirit we have from Jesus and see where you've read things about God wrong." and I had a problem with it. I'll finish watching your video now because I really want to have defensible evidence that his teaching is flawed to show others. Thank you for always staying true to the Living Word, Mike!!
Mike you said you don't want to rant, but if that were true you should have had Brian on the video with you to hash out what you think he is saying and what he thinks he is saying.
I have watched you periodically and much of your focus appears to be attacking other denominations based on your assumptions of scripture and what it says.
What makes you the ultimate authority of scripture?
Do you think you are some kind of prophet?
Early on you say Brian builds some kind of straw man to persuade others of his authority, but Mike you do the same thing in each of your attack videos to discredit who you are attacking.
To be honest if you want to speak from a place of authority you need to abandon the platonic gospel inherent in traditional Christianity. A platonic gospel which was originally adopted by the catholic church and retained by the offshoot churches such as yours as they protested.
I would recommend that instead of attacking other religious groups invite them to your program to discuss what they believe and why. That would be the honest Christian thing to do. Otherwise you are guilty of calling your brother raca.
Brilliant perspective...
He does invite them. But the fact that zahnd has made these things public means the public revelation of truth. The scriptures Mike used and hermeneutics he applied are standards for reading and understanding anything in any language. Mike has contested Calvinism, Catholicism, and more. He invites all of them, and if you take the time you can find debates he has had. Mike literally displayed what Zahnd believes from his own material. The label was applied after the contents of the package was shown and a label given. I don’t need to defend Mike but I would swear you didn’t watch the video because your making statements that don’t line up.
no i did watch the video, and the fact that we interpreted Mike's words differently from each other and perhaps different than he intended makes my point.
He mentioned that he would like to invite the author, which implies that he hasn't. And after the potential straw man he built about the authors book like he said it may be unlikely that he will accept an invitation now. Which also implies that Mike knew how biased and inflammatory his arguments were.
Even so from the way Mike presented the authors beliefs some of those beliefs sound to me more reasonable than Mike's interpretation.
And yes I have seen Mike attack other groups and people using the same tactics he condemns in those who disagree with him.
@@lukesteele4510 of course they are inflammatory, he is contending earnestly for the faith. Can you point at one time where Mike missed it scripturally? Even once? You cant present a scriptural argument, and as I said, he definitely stuck to a constant hermeneutic and did everything contextually. If you don't then it can say whatever you want. Which is what Zahnd has done. And they seem reasonable to you because its from a feeling not scriptural basis. It makes you "feel" good and it "sound" reasonable when it's not. But hearing, they will not hear I reckon.
If you write a book and publish it, you ARE inviting people to go through it and give criticism on it. This is exactly what Mike is doing. He’s going through his book and saying what is biblical or not. It IS the Christian thing to do, call out false teachers, whom Brian is one.
If your view of Hell isn’t eternal torture, then what is it?
Ik, he says one second it isn’t, and then the very next second says it’s not heresy to say it’s “eternal conscious torment.” The contradictory philosophy is kinda ridiculous
I did the same thing de-constructing Rob Bell's book, "Love Wins" .... another false teacher .. Thanks for the info on Brian, ... I live in Kansas City and am just a little familiar with him ...
Your words "your just demonizing people you don't like, and mocking them". Which is exactly what this video has been doing itself, 30 minutes in. Smh
So quoting Zahnd's own words is mocking him?
If ECT is true then why wouldn’t you use the word torture to describe it?
Yes why?
I don't understand how you "discovered" concerns in his theology when at the beginning of the tape you admitted that you and your friends agree to read "bad" books. You had already decided that you disagreed with his theology, that is why you read the book, in order to tear it apart. Reading from that position, preconditions you to search for stuff you don't agree with. What you are UNABLE to do from that position is read with an open mind, strawmanning Mr. Zahnd for strawmanning along the way.
You do a lot of mind reading and motive reading when it comes to what I think and what my secret motives are and how they impact me. You’ve got a rather distorted version of me.
Mike didn't discover the areas where he disagrees with Brian's views. Mike discovered areas where the Bible disagrees with Brian's views.
Mike, I'm glad you made this. A while ago I stumbled on his 'Beauty will save the world' message on wearerubicon channel. I hated it at first but by the end I was like, "I think this guy is a Christian - who spent too much time in college." What a great orator he is. Very skilled. Very dangerous.
Brian Zahnd's approach is the same as Rob Bell, but he is more aggressive towards Biblical Christians who hold to a holiness revealed in scripture.
@@Deacondan240 because people who hold to "holiness revealed in scriptures" look way different than the Jesus revealed in scriptures
I went to his church for five years in the early 2000s, and know a lot about him. He never went to college and doesn’t have a degree. He is self taught, which is apparently dangerous. I became a Christian there and learned about faith and my core foundational beliefs. It was a revival atmosphere that many don’t get to experience, it was powerful and amazing, It was the real thing. He was definitely called by God and anointed to preach the gospel, the best preacher my husband and I have ever heard… EVER! Gods gifts and His calling are irrevocable, but unfortunately the anointing has left him and he is now heretical. Saul was King for 40 years but only anointed for four because of his disobedience to God. It’s so super sad to have seen him moving in his calling and now for him to be where he is. Deceived. 😪 He married my husband and I…
@@joniberry3257 I was brought up in a church that became more and more 'revivalist' and 'spirit led' as I went through HS and college. The preaching was good and I felt all the feels of being a Christian. But feelings aren't really the point. Learning and being fed the Word is really what we need as a body of believers. A pastors duty is to teach the Word and care for the church members. I read a book recently that talked about pastors as having either a David spirit or a Saul spirit. I thought that was so silly because the OT kings point to King Jesus and not to men ordained to serve and instruct Christians. Jesus is our priest and king. A pastor should always remind us of that. What an awesome responsibility and undertaking!
That must be hard to look back on such a special day and have different (changing?) opinions of the MC that day. Be sure to remember why you both were there and all that matters is your covenant to one another before the Lord.
But you never clarified his point. Why was there no justice if the slave died a few days later?
I need to join that secret club of reading bad books since I am already doing it. Since re-establishing with old friends on Facebook I've had to read all kinds of junk by this guy and others to understand where some of my friends have gone astray.
Here's a clip of Brian Zahnd explaining how demonizing someone who is different from us is actually not the Spirit but the Devil and now let me demonize Brian Zahnd in exactly the same way. Wow.
The distorted concepts of the incredibly popular sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards from 1741are still alive and well in most of evangical Christianity today and taught as the Gospel. The fact this theologian/speaker was unaware of the sermon makes me question the quality of his educational foundation.
You are right on Mike, Brian is a rhetorician at heart. He grew up in a household where debate was encouraged. His father was a Lawyer and Circuit Judge, brother is a Prosecuting Attorney in a large county in MO. In Brian's own words you had to learn to debate and defend your positions at the dinner table. So there is that. WOLC is Brian's domain, he is the ultimate authority. I could be wrong but I do not think there are any Elders, Deacons or overseers of his ministry. He is out there on an Island and answers to no one. Please pray for him and the church. Brian is a home grown pastor, he has NO formal training at any Seminary. used to call them Cemeteries where the word of God went to die(paraphrase). I don't remember the exact quote, been a long time.
Mike, I think Brian would probably agree with what you are saying about the case law. I believe his main point is that one needs to be careful how they read the Bible. I don't believe that Brian believes the Bible is endorsing slavery in these passages anymore than you do. His point is that a number of doctrines have been developed by distorting Scripture or an incorrect reading of Scripture.
wade gray that may be true but it seems that his way of speaking seems unclear to me...
Based on what you've written here, I have to think that you watched an entirely different clip. He was absolutely clear with what he thought that passage said and it was horrifying to hear that he misled young people with it.
Pastor Mike, I find that the fear and hatred of judgement makes a lot of people rebel against God because it highlights their errors, however instead of changing and subduing themselves to the LORD, they twist the Word of God to justify their own beliefs and lifestyle. This is especially true if the word of God hinders the way they want to live and think. It's unfortunate as the gospel is to teach, reprove, correct and instruct in justice.
Thanks for the video and your ministry.
Be blessed 🙏
Thanks for exposing this guy, I’ve only heard a little about Zahnd because he was in a group debate against Calvinists that I watched, and I think I also heard something about him when looking into Open Theism. I never went deeper into learning more about him but also didn’t know to avoid him in the future either. Didn’t realize how far off he was. Thanks!
The associate pastor at my church did a sermon promoting Brian Zahnd and his book(s). It burned in my heart to not do anything, so I confronted him and the pastor, and we had a meeting with a board member and I presented my arguments to Brian Zahnd and his teachings, and I was told that I'm wrong, Brian Zahnd is okay, and that the Bible, while inspired by God, isn't the only book we need to read, etc blah blah bah. I have since stopped going to church as I can't stomach false doctrine being taught from the pulpit.
I do want to say that "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" is quite possibly the most famous American Sermon ever, with the exception of Billy Graham's sermon (if that can be rightly called an "American Sermon"). Furthermore, it has affected (or at least represented) American theology for centuries, even if people aren't aware of the sermon itself. I say this as someone who detests Puritanism (I am an Anglican), which is where the theology and sermon ultimately come from. Equally, I detest the teachings of Zahnd.
I'm glad you pointed that out. I was also very aware of Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God and found it weird that Mike wasn't more familiar with it. We even read it in my secular American lit class though in retrospect that may have been done to discredit Christianity.
While I liked most of what Mike said in this video, I found it really weird that he seemed so unfamiliar with Edward’s sermon. I thought everybody had to read that in H.S. Seeing other people comment about their familiarity with the sermon makes me really wonder about Mike’s response here. Usually he does his homework but he obviously didn’t on this point.
@Stitching in the Boro the Puritans were rejecting Anglicanism, not just Romanism.
I am uncertain if you have given Zahnd a fair dealing. You agree with his opening statement, that the God whom is often presented and how He is often represented in American Christianity is not accurate or good. On to the slave issue, I am not sure if you deal with the issue that Zahnd brings up. Striking the slave is not the issue, but having slaves at all. I agree that it doesn't seem like Zahnd has a good understanding of the OT, but you went off on a tangent to what was being discussed by Zahnd. Zahnd was arguing that we are progressing towards Jesus, including the notion of owning slaves. Or not owning slaves. I see Zahnd responding to critics of Christianity as being stagnant and dead and irrelevant. Zahnd is just demonstrating a progression from a lesser state to a higher state, not much unlike Paul when Paul discusses the contrast between Jewish and Gentile believers. Paul had a progressive understanding as well.
I find that when you use Jesus in regards to the Old Testament law, it sounds like you are mirroring what Zahnd says by quoting Jesus perspective on divorce. If Jesus says that some laws are because our hearts were hard and that it was never intended, is that not EXACTLY what Zahnd was saying? That as we get closer to Christ and know God, our standards become more stringent?
"Substitutionary Atonement" is debated widely in the Seminaries and amongst theologians. I come from a tradition that missed out on that discussion and typically does not hold Substitutionary Atonement as true.
One last thing, but I am thinking about how you use the term "true Christianity" and yet have not really outlined or discussed what it is. I would think, that like Zahnd, you would agree that much of what is presented as Christianity is not true Christianity. You are going to have to describe what "true Christianity is" for what you say to have much meaning. From what I am hearing, "true Christianity" is just not what Zahnd believes.