What Is the Double-Empathy Problem? | Neurodivergent Magic
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
- Have you heard the myth that autistic folks lack empathy? Turns out, it's generally untrue, and the double-empathy problem explains why.
It turns out that neurodivergent folks are good at empathizing with other neurodivergent folks, and neurotypical folks are good at empathizing with other neurotypical folks, but when you mix the two groups, communication tends to break down.
So why is the blame always placed on autistic folks? Let's talk about it.
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😊 Hi, I'm Megan Griffith, I'm a neurodivergent life coach and content creator on a mission to help neurodivergent folks embrace their strengths, cope with their struggles, and be their true, authentic selves.
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I am quite sure I am autistic but this trait of lacking empathy made me think I am not. I have always had problem with excess disproportionate empathy that is out of my control most of the time, and I am not humble bragging. My son is low functioning autistic and Down syndrome non-verbal and he is very very empathic. Thank you for this video.
It's a myth that autistics lack empathy. It's just that non autistic people don't notice the ways autistic people express it, because it's often different from how they do. I've met a lot of autistic people in the comments that are hyper empathetic, and I am also. The fact THEY can't see it doesn't mean we don't have any.
I love that you explained that you are not humble bragging about being disproportionately empathetic - I’m the same way!
Since I was a preschooler I’ve been overwhelmed by other people’s pain and suffering, losing sleep and ruminating for years and years and years over a stranger’s struggles or misfortune.
The pain and suffering in the world is horribly overwhelming and until I understood my autistic brain, I thought everyone was like this but were able to shut their feelings off. I thought I was “broken” or inferior because my empathy toward others can be paralyzing.
So I can understand why someone might see it as humble bragging about being super empathetic, but, I know from first-hand experience, you ARE NOT trying to brag.
While I’m happy to be a person who feels things deeply, it’s also an incredible burden to constantly and uncontrollably worry about the world.
Peace!
If he is there's a 50% chance you do to. Autism is inherited
The double-empathy problem can play out between two neurotypical people, two autistic people, or two allistic ND people, especially when you take other factors into account.
Take cultural differences for example. I studied Russian for two years in college and had two professors who were both Russian. Smiling for "no reason" is frowned upon in Russia and is seen as unsettling by locals. However, in the US, some degree of amicability is expected from others, even when the person doesn't really have a clear reason to show such behavior. Without clear understandings of either culture on either end, a lot of Americans would think that Russians are hostile while Russians might think that Americans are inauthentic, even if that's not necessarily the case.
You just blew me away there! Great example!
I feel a connection with my autistic best friend way more than I do with my non-autistic best friend! We get eachother on another level and we even built our routines around eachother. 😂
It's so special to have someone like that in your life!!!
Thanks for explaining this. More people need to know about it. I'm wondering though, why you said autistic people lack empathy for allistic people, but you didn't say allistic people lack empathy for autistic people.
All my life I've tried indescribably hard to understand them and learn how to communicate and be accepted by allistics.
Most of them expect me to do all of the effort and make none themselves. Then put all the blame on me if a misunderstanding happens.
Also, when I was in autistic burn out, I told the people I thought were close about it. I'd always been supportive of them during their hard times, so I thought they would return some reassurance when I needed it. Some acted like it was trivial. Some completely dismissed it.
I concluded from that, that most allistics lack empathy for autistic people.
I think, in general, most groups find it hard to empathize with groups that are different from them. Whether that's men and women, racial divides, etc. It's not just an a NT ND thing.
You are correct
The *double* in double empathy problem refers to the mutual lack of empathy between neurotypes; it’s difficult to understand someone with such vastly different experiences. If she didn’t make that clear, most other explanations of the double empathy problem do. By definition, it goes both ways.
I think she is emphasizing on how allistic people do not hold empathy for autistic people because they are the majority and they write the definitions. That is why the false claim that autistic people lack empathy persists.
Autistic people have “spikey” skill and sensory profiles. Hyper or hypo sensitive, hyper or hypo empathetic, hyper or hypo linguistic. Yes, *some* autistic people lack cognitive empathy, but most seem to have extra affective empathy.
And the false claim that persists in society, saying autistic people lack empathy, is extremely harmful because it allows people to dehumanize and treat autistic people as “less than.”
I rewatched it, and yeah, the first half of the video is about how allistic people have historically mistreated us because they do not have empathy for autistic people. She doesn’t use the exact quote, “allistic people lack empathy for autistic people,” but that is what she discusses.
The second half is about how autistic people empathy is different than neurotypical empathy, and how autistic people can struggle to empathize with allistic people (as you quote). I think you are just hung up on the specific words she is using, but she did explain the mutuality of the double empathy problem.
Your experience of being misunderstood and dismissed all your life *is* the double empathy problem. It really sucks, I know. ❤❤❤
@@Ann963 I know this is about the double empathy problem, and I know that the misunderstandings and dismissals I've had from allistics are because of it, but I don't think it's fair to specifically say that autistic people have a hard time empathizing with allistic people, and not acknowledge that allistic people have a hard time empathizing with autistic people. It's not really right that even in videos about this subject, ALL THE BLAME still goes to autistic people.
I'm not hung up on specific words. Just the lack of giving both sides the same amount of EMPATHY.
Yes! I'm undiagnosed but suspect I might be on the spectrum and I relate a lot to this. Thank you for what you do by the way. Found your channel recently and can't stop binging them, I love the way you talk about things.
Omg, thank you! I'm so glad my videos can help!
In my apartment block there is a fire door that should always remain shut. Random people leave it ajar. As someone with Autism, this really exasperates me; not only is it dangerous, but it breaks the Health & Safety rule. When I explained this to my neighbor, she was very chilled about it and I really snapped at her. She could not understand why the fire door being left open provoked me so much and I could not understand why she would happily let it slide. Maybe this is double empathy or just a vigilant person vs someone who is apathetic?
yeah, that would piss me off too, but there is a social standard of that door being used and open. People often break laws merely because it's socially acceptable to do so, like in cases of looting, once one starts stealing, the next & next see it as acceptable & so on, exponentially. Even if it has long term dangerous effects, people ignore those - if it does not immediately affect them they would rather remain ignorant than change. You are using the health and safety rules. They are using the rules of unspoken social etiquette. Unless something obviously negative happens - like someone falling from the fire escape, no one is likely change their behaviour. If you can find a concise way to explain why it is dangerous to leave the fire escape open, perhaps with an obvious dangerous scenario, they probably won't change their habits, but will at least have a better chance of understanding. Hope this helps, even if I'm 9 months late, lol.
Thank you for explaining this, such a great way of picturing how both parties can have genuine empathy and still miss understandingeach other. I was diagnosed with ADHD, not autism, but I think I have AuDHD. I spent most of my 30s trying to understand whether or not I'm autistic and why conversations with people are so difficult.
Throughout my life I have noticed that many people have good intentions and seem to care about my feelings, yet still TOTALLY misunderstand my feelings. I can see that they THINK they have empathy for me, but they actually don't understand me at all, not by a long shot.
It can get to the point where people do things that are incredibly hurtful (emotionally or even physically, like loud noise), yet I feel like I will hurt them more if I point out how their behavior is actually impacting me. If I do they are likely going to be very offended. You end up apologizing to the other person for being hurt by their behavior.
I have garbage auditory processing for speech. People talk over me a lot while I'm still trying to process what words they said. I think they assume that they are "helping" somehow by taking control of the conversation.
I find a lot of allistic people will actually just auto-complete my side of the conversation for themselves if I haven't answered fast enough. They fundamentally operate on assumptions anyhow, like there's a code under your words that they automatically decoded without actually needing any input from you. Sometimes they get it right, but most of the time it is WRONG.
It's kind of like allistic people have presumptive empathy that is built out certain core assumptions about people, life, society etc. Whereas my empathy is algorithmic. It takes time for me to build enough data to fully understand, but once I do, it's pretty detailed and thorough. In the meantime, if I don't have enough information, I can't parse things out correctly.
I don't think I'm autistic or even neuro divergent, but I do struggle with basic daily life and sociability. Some of the things I'm hearing as I watch these videos resonate, yet I don't quite fit in either allistic or divergent. I feel like I would be devalidating someone who truly struggles with these states of being. And yet, not quite normal either. Either way, thank you for your soothing expression and lovely presentation. Quite informative.
It is important to remember that a "spectrum" is a continuous range between two extremities (analog) not an on-off, either-or (binary) choice between two mutually exclusive conditions.
It is clear to me (looking back over 60+ years of life "experience") that I share some traits that are "on the spectrum," but I also share some traits with the neurotypical side. I'm not an "either-or," I'm an "and." 🖖
diagnoses are a kind of tool. they are just words that have been invented to describe something unimaginably complex
My sister identifies as sub clinical. It’s recently been proven there are people who are not autistic, but not allistic either. And a brain scan shows it’s neither. Could be a possibility.
I dont think I have autism, I have really bad adhd but dang does every autism video I watch feel so validating dhdhd
oh my god i get it now. thank you so much for this video. im going to share what the AI told me. i hope this helps.
Example of the Double Empathy Problem
Scenario: A Team Project at Work
Participants:
Alice: An autistic employee who prefers direct, clear communication and may have difficulty with implicit social cues.
Bob: A non-autistic employee who is comfortable with implied social norms and indirect communication.
Meeting Discussions:
Bob’s Perspective: During meetings, Bob uses a lot of indirect language and expects team members to pick up on subtle cues and hints about what needs to be done. He often uses phrases like, “It might be a good idea if someone looked into this,” expecting the team to understand who should take on the task.
Alice’s Perspective: Alice finds this indirect communication confusing and is unsure who is responsible for specific tasks. She prefers direct statements like, “Alice, please investigate this matter.”
i always called the 'maybe' words weak and non-commital, mostly because it requires me to reach across the line (invest energy) and altruistically give in to a superpositional stance in order to complete a verbal agreement AS WELL AS comply with the agreement. This double-tapping of my energy is seen as narcissisms on my side, and my perceived rude/abrupt/direct approach is seen as commanding.
What is the solution?
Because I think in memories I can emphatise with what I can relate to, either through my own experience, or someone explaining it to me so it makes sense to me. I find it extremely hard to see things from a perspective that doesn't make sense to me, and therfor I find it hard to emphatise with it.
I am similar to a large extent, but I have been studying them for a long time and can cognitively empathise as well, but I call it ‘predicting what they are going to feel/think/say/do’. The things I can’t empathise with is when people are cruel, spiteful, b*tchy, lying to make themselves feel better, devious…
@@tracik1277 Exactly, like I can understand someone losing their cool in the heat of the moment on a cognitive level so I can emphatise with that. I can't cognitively understand bad intent so can't emphatise but that makes it also very hard to predict and prepare for bad behaviour (which I believe is the reason we sometimes seem "naive"). It involves abstract thinking which is typically also not our strong point.
The neurodivergent superhighway! I use this analogy to explain how neurodivergent people make friends super fast! We're just on a different wavelength
When the communication is not scripted and the living situation is different, there WILL be misunderstanding. This also happends in different religion, ras, sexual preference etc... The point is that the 'minority ' gets blamed for it!😢
Definitely! I get on so much more easily with other neurodivergent folks!
Hello Madam,
Your videos have been saving me from completely drowning. It provides me a ray of hope. Double empathy problem makes me look like an idiot! I thought I was stupid but I am happy there is a word for it. Will make sure I work a therapist on that.
Please Keep doing the great work. xo :)
The way I see it, something a lot of ASD folks have in common is some sort of emotional processing disorder- which can sometimes indicate that whatever emotion a non-autistic person might be feeling in a given circumstance, an ASD person might be feeling it more intensely.
Sometimes this means that they are indeed more empathetic than the average person.
However, what can also happen is, if the emotion or sensation they feel is uncomfortable, they're therefore feeling it more strongly than a non-autistic person would. If said feeling is intense enough, they might have to resort to what comes off as "rude" behavior, just to deal with the feeling in the first place, to "put out the fire".
For a lot of us, our logical, pragmatic, and analytical tendencies are often our coping mechanism for dealing with the increased amounts of anxiety we have.
I have never yet heard a clear definition or explanation of "double empathy".. must have missed it here too. A problem I have with "normies"( my term for NT folks) is that they misunderstand the autistic delay in reading situations, assuming that autistics just don't seem to mind what's going on. I have had all kinds of abuse, disrespect and utter disregard, and while these hurt at the time, it can take months until I realise just what has happened. By which time the perpetrator is long gone, and has completely forgotten it.
The NT folks mistake this - " I completely walked all over him, and he didn't seem to mind or even notice". So this leads them to think we don't feel anything.
I've run out of steam here. I hope this is relevant somehow.
The double empathy problem pretty much is the story of my life 😅
Glad you mentioned adhd at the end I have 100% found this to be true but do not think that I have ASC, although who knows I only found out about the ADHD at age 34...
Thanks, I have heard this term the past couple of years but now I understand that the problem happens to me all the time as I try to interact with my significant other. It has ALWAYS happened. We are both autistic. !@#!!
I like to think some allistics are the ones lacking empathy.
I fail to see how communication and differently organisation of ideas and information has anything to do with empathy.
I agree. The divide isn't because Au lack empathy for Al or vice versa, but because our communication styles and perspectives tend to be different enough that learning how they feel and why is patchy, so we often don't get exposed to the stimuli that would prompt the empathy, and when we do, our way of showing it is similarly patchy, so it doesn't always come across well. If someone's hurting and I feel bad, I might say something to them that would comfort me - treating them how I'd want to be treated, what I'd like to hear in a painful moment, but that's not what they want. And similarly they're offering what seems proper to them when I'm hurting but it's the incorrect approach. Also, "how would you feel in this situation?" Isn't very useful when the way you actually would feel is considerably different than the person asking the question. I usually say "me, personally, I'd be fine, but cognitively I understand why it upsets you, and that's because [my guess at the reason, which is correct only like 60% of the time]
The empathy or potential for it is there it just doesn't transfer well.
Autistic people like analogies, and your analogy helps. Thanks.
Funny being an empath with autism/adhd!! Things can get so chaotic!!🤪👍😎👻🤪🌶
One lesson: never explain to autistic people the details too much, especially in complicated problem solving issues, or else he/she will go HULK mode.
This is why when we talk about problems or trouble shooting, I do not explain at all. My parents keep insisting on explaining stuff when things go wrong
I know what you mean. They keep talking and talking and talking lol O:)
Never say never. I’m always interested in explanations, though I don’t match all the symptoms of autism.
I feel much less anxious if I do know all the details. So much of the time people and other situations don’t give enough information or it is vague or ambiguous, that is crap. Just maybe don’t pile on everything all at once, because we may need time to process.
Yes, I have much more peace with my husband if I don't try to brainstorm ideas or solutions to a problem with him. I have to think it out by myself or with another person, and then I either bring him the best two ideas or just the one. And we discuss it for a few moments to see if he sees anything amiss, and then that's the plan.
It's less overwhelming for him.
Not for me, of course. It feels very lonely to not be permitted to think out loud with him. However, that's our life.
So miscommunication is the double empathy problem?
Thank you for the content this was incredibly helpful to hear
ND people are far more socially aware than what some people give them credit for. Being more concerned with pragmatics than the semantics in social interactions. So yeah it's different communication channel and not a lack of empathy or understanding.
And more often than not you have to look out for why a person might be asking or demanding you empathise with them . Because it could be manipulation as well . Narcicistic people love autists and the main way they abuse them is by triggering them with the stigma that they are not emotional (maliable ) enough .
And for nt people it's just a stigma they hold because they probabaly don't like people questioning or asking them to clarify their motives or intent . It depends on the context of the interaction .
thanks
The hot sauce thing 😳 it was either that or dish soap..
How does the telephone game show empathy? I would think it would be showing memory skills
It’s not really about the empathy in that example. It’s about the difference in communication between different-minded people. Hope this helps!
Yes, but the reactions and subsequent frustration would demonstrate double empathy because group A would be super frustrated with group b a vice versa and both groups would have mutual annoyance.
Here is a challenge. Tell me why this notion has been labelled "The Double Empathy Problem".
Sadly you do not mention one example. Like on a other channel some adhd mention the whole video no single one example. So I do not understand what you sad fully.
It isn’t really a misconception because there are way more non autistic people and the actions by the autistic people still do hurt others because they don’t understand and empathise with how their actions affect others. The reality is we live in a predominantly neurotypical world and the differences can harm people because of not being able to put themselves in others’ shoes.
The differences harm autistic people as well and as we find out more about autism there are actually more autistic people than we use to think. Communication shouldn’t only be catered for a certain group of people.
Folks? I prefer people.
Whaaaat? OMG...
Life's short.
Who cares?
Thank you for this! … my whole life ❤️🩹💙💜
Love your content!
Aahhhhh, thank you so much!