Specialized & Canyon just inventing stuff for click bait? - All I want is a reliable quiet bike 🚴♂️
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- Опубліковано 26 жов 2022
- Is Specialized and Canyon just inventing stuff for click bait? In this video, I discuss the all new Specialized Diverge Future Shock for Gravel Riders and Canyon Spectral KIS (Keep it Stable) for Mountain Bikes. Is this really going to help you ride better or could that time, energy and cost be better spent for a better bike?
#specializeddiverge #canyonspectral #Qualitybikes - Спорт
The problem is that a quality bike only distinguishes itself long after the time of purchase. This is all targeted towards capturing attention at the time of purchase. It’s a real pity. We need more trustworthy review sources that expose poor quality bikes and make it much harder to sell them.
if theres one thing ive picked up is these bike companies using unreliable unfixable shimano motors that are fucking up after a few 1000 miles
that's a very smart comment if you ask me..
Completely agree. I would add to the issue though, that the companies also screw themselves in the "quest" to be king... take for example what was once a little know US bike company called Trek. They VERY quickly rose to "word of mouth" fame as THE bike to buy back in the 1980's; because they were taking on the European dominated market for high quality bikes, with light (relative to the day) frames, good components, & backed by a good midwest-values American made company. So, their sales & dominance skyrocketed. Then each year we saw a mix of: slicker paint jobs, more marketing, small increases in prices, sneaking a step down in lesser noticed components (like on a particular model that was full Deore xt one year, the next it might only be the derailleurs & brake levers, while the rest of the component group was downgraded one or two steps). Before long, they were an average bike at an average price, but hung on to the "Trek is a great value" moniker for many years after it was no longer deserved.
That's a bigger example of what I feel like many companies do in a cyclical pattern. Among that pattern is gimmicky crap like the video describes, which are things we don't need & are not asking for, instead of actually making a better version of what they already have! As you said; more trustworthy review sources that could expose these issues would force the bike industry to focus better on craft & quality to value instead of "shiny new objects" that distract from real issues.
Touché
The issue is that any source that gets sent a test bike and then slams it in press will end up blackballed by that company for future review models. So while companies aren't directly buying positive reviews they are leveraging much less damaging press and reviews.
I work in a bike shop with mechanics. We can’t wait to chase down all these new creaks and squeaks 😆
And folk wonder why the labour bill is so high. In 4 years most our time will be spent on google trying to find parts for this stuff to get it working again.
Doing the lords work 🙌🙏
My creak finding fee has just gone up, along with headset replacement on things like the Sworks Tarmac SL7
CORRECT the cycle manufacturers who are making eye watering profits have to try to justify the outrageous prices being charged for run of the mill frames made in china .
Source for ‘eye watering profits’?
@@themoodyteam Hambini is great source.
@@iMadrid11 Yes, but facts about profits?
@Jesskha Yes, but facts about profits?
My Fairlight Strael is smooth and quiet, steel frame and doesnt echo like carbon
I had a look at that, nice, but overpriced.
Specialized does the rear future shock and oddly enough, Trek just backed off a notch on the Domane, and got rid of the adjustability of the rear iSOspeed, and eliminated the front system all together, stating they can now get the same result from bigger tires and air pressure.
It’s like an over due Epiphany
I own a Domane ALR and although I DO like it a lot, I’ve learned the hard way that gimmicks such as IsoSpeed give riders more headaches than smiles. The bike would be just as good with a rigid frame, as the flex comes more from my saddle than the pivot. The noises, though… those are not coming from the tires, I can tell you that much..
@diesel can confirm. I have 2017 Trek Stache on alu frame and even with gigantic 29x3.0 tyres the frame is too damn stiff, the ride is not forgiving at all. I run 0.8 Bar front and 1 Bar rear and the ride is still too stiff. Drop the pressure even more - and the bike tends to float like a jelly.
@diesel there's limit to how low you can go. 0.8 front/1 Bar rear is already verging on ridiculous. Frame has to be compliant to not only for comfort, but also for grip too. Ducati went through this vicious cycle a while ago. They were building stiffer and stiffer bikes, but it turned out bikes were starting to lose traction earlier than bikes with forgiving frames. So engineers have started to account for grip as well.
Bottom line is that one must avoid from getting extremes. The endless push in one direction (in this case - stiffness) leads to loss of other important aspects. Getting balance is what cycling industry has issues at these days and it pains me to see how Specialized et al are trying hard to reinvent what was working from the get go. Bikes were already perfected. Like a hatchet. Like a knife.
Cycling since a kid, started mountainbiking in 1985. I’ve seen the development of front to full suspension and all the dead end developments along the way.
I agree 100% with your assessment
Reliable, quiet and with parts that are easy to get hold of!
Yeah. there is no way there will be part for that future shock in 5 years.
Hence im still using round seatpost, stem+handlebar combination, cable barrel adjuster. Looking for good new bike nowadays with all that specs + direct mount rim brake is impossible.
Custom frame is the only way to go
@@shhhdontshout That's the concern the standard bike tech that we know and love is disappearing, replaced by expensive proprietary disposable fashion crap-tech.
@@shhhdontshout Sometimes I do think of getting a bespoke frameset made out of a metal (aluminium, steel or if I can afford it, titanium) with standardised parts. Some of my desired features include:
Aftermarket 1 1/8-inch fork with the most common steerer tube taper
Two-piece aluminium cockpit
Integrated (ie. drop-in bearings) or zero-stack headset
Regular internal routing (amateurs call this external routing)
27.2 mm seatpost + collar clamp
T47 Outboard BB standard
Detachable RD hanger of a model that'll be manufactured long-term
My only problem is, rim or disc? 😂 (I can work on both)
@@shhhdontshout Trek Domane AL 5! 32mm tires! Full 11 speed Shimano 105. I bought one this year because I wanted something bombproof and futureproof. I’m loving it!
The marketing BS people fall for is amazing.
I just built a 14.5 lb bike using a 20 year old Sintesi Easton Elite frame. Such a joy to build and ride. Everything lines up, no creaking, no rattling. Rim brakes, tubes, clinchers and mechanical. No problem keeping up with the 10k ‘super bikes’.
I still pull a Sunday shift in a bike shop, and most of the build quality tolerances today are sadly comical.
Great channel!
I'm waiting for all of the knee problems to start from all of the loosey-goosey, misaligned, even wobbly press fit bottom brackets. 😉👎👎
It's the same for geometries, where some "independent" testers want to convince you that the new bike with a 1-2mm shorter chainstay is feeling "so more agil" than the previous model from the last year. The problem is, that all these guys are so heavily dependent on the companies to get new stuff for testing to get the channel/website going, so they will tell you every nonsense, to not endanger the good connection to the bike brands
Honestly sounds like a shit bike that u love too much
The only thing super about those so called super bikes is the price.
I second what @alienchow said. Get an older frame and rebuild it. I just bought a Cannondale CAAD5 made in 2000, stripped it down, and rebuilt it with mostly 10 speed Dura Ace 7900 components. Replaced the fork with a new Enve fork, which is key and made a tremendous difference. So easy to build. The bike is stiff and stable but not harsh, and totally silent. No creaks, rattles, groans. A joy to ride!
Really like your points of views along with your honesty & integrity 👏 . Serious times we are living in...
🙏 thank you Aaa aaa
I couldn't agree more with your points on the Diverge str. So much complexity with very little benefit - more moving parts, more things to go wrong... especially in dirty riding environments where gravel bikes were meant to thrive.
The old fashioned way of reducing shock while seated is to push a bigger gear to put weight on the feet and take it off the saddle.
yeah but that doesn't make any money !
... and you need to know how to ride a bike too, these mimics are aimed to people easily impressed by blinky things and with money in their pockets, then losing interest after two bike rides.
The old fashioned way of reducing shock while riding is to also add 160mm of travel in the fork and rear triangle. That’s what I have hanging on my wall beside my road bikes.
Would you like to buy a full Suss bike instead then? Of not, maybe you’ll see why companies are trying to add travel to a bike without making it into just another mtb.
Or just bigger tires. Thus, gravel bikes. Or whatever type of bike you want that can fit wider rubber.
Completely agree! For a quite, smooth shifting, lightweight, and reliable bike, just reach back to 2014 - 2017….before the board rooms started thinking they could innovate.😂
Somewhere there was peak 10sp and rim brake evolution. Those 10speed groupsets were bloody reliable.
@@Mapdec I’ve got a Shimano 105 10 speed that I really liked. Currently using a Felt Z5, updated to 11 speed Di2 6870z. Dura Ace brakes, and EA90SLX wheels, and a SRAM Red22 quark. All eBay, all 75% off MSRP, and all working perfectly after a little TLC and just over 7kg. 😆 Always on the look out to upgrade with superior older tech! Buying something new at this point would feel like downgrading!
@@Mapdec Mine, on my all external everything (except for the brake/shifter CABLES under the bar tape) titanium ride has not failed me yet in the last 20+ years, with minimal maintenance!
People just LOVE to rag on, and lambaste Campy for everything under the sun, but my circa 2000 Record 10 gruppo has been flawless since new!!
Sure, it might take a microsecond longer than Di2 to be in gear, but I NEVER have to worry about charging anything, or about carrying any spare batteries (is 'crosstalk' EVER any kind of an issue/thing with any of these electronic systems??).
How long until these manufacturers want to implant effing chips in our heads so that we can just 'think' about shifting, and it happens??
Of course, then besides the $10K USD co$t of the gruppo, and the neurosurgeon's exorbitant fee, these companies will also get a licensing fee for said chip. 🤣🤣
Yes, agreed. My 2012 Specialized Tarmac has been great (standardized seat tube and headset, external cable routing, 10-speed rock solid rear mech, rim brakes and just as light as todays overpriced garbage). I have no intention of getting anything new.
The content is right on target. The bike industry is one big marketing, selling us sinfully expensive bikes with mediocre components, poor build and setup, poor final control...etc. Your video on the Canyon Endurace CF SLX is epic.
I send my regards to you.
Thank you Benno.
I agree 100% with what you're saying here, I even exhale a sigh of disappiontment that the cycle industry isn't really trying anymore. Hope this nonsense ends soon and bike companies get their shit together.
@paul Astin.....I wouldn't hold your breath! I cannot think of any industry that is as ruthlessly greedy as the bike industry [except maybe banking]. .
Back in school one of my friends got an internship with Bosch, and apparently their back motors are no innovation at all just a repurposed drill with a bigger battery, yet they can cost up to 3 times more
Well sram better do something like wireless brakes for riders in rampage and slope riders so they can do more trick without a giant cable
Fair play, great video. Best marketing nonsense critique since Peak Torque
Thank you Gary.
Unfortunately, this is not unique to the cycling industry. Very recently, I worked in the fly fishing industry and all they wanted to do was sell new products that weren't necessary. You don't need space ship materials to build a good fly rod. Consequently, all of their investment went in to R&D and marketing and they completely abandoned quality. Defects got through QA and the returns/repair process took huge hits. It was down for over 6 months and the "lifetime warranty" became something the customer had to pay for. Consumer sentiment in the marketplace is abysmal for that brand now.
Love the honesty & integrity.
Agreed - a number of bike manufactures cant make a bike with a true well alined frame yet.
Still - i'm sure some journalists will be saying this is the best thing since sliced bread.
Of course 😉
Fully agree, these are solutions looking for a problem that doesn't exist. Surely 40mm+ tyres on a gravel bike is the whole point of greater clearances to smooth out rougher terrain.
Yeah. Fitting a nice wide carbon rim and some high quality tyres with a compliment side wall would have a greater impact on comfort.
Or you could just add 10-20mm of travel like what they did, and have a thinner and lighter tyre for a more responsive riding experience than 40mm tyres?
And parts don’t usually spoil within a year or two, which is about when you’re due to upgrade and buy a new bike anyway.
Suspension has a lot of advantages. The problem with the specialized is that it's suspension doesn't seem to provide any advantages that a cane creek suspension seatpost doesn't. There are many excellent rear suspension bike designs in existence and that isn't one of them. I guess it's likely better than a softride beam xc mtb from the 1990's but we've had a few decades of suspension design evolution.
I've been an avid cyclist for over 30 years. Never, ever at any point did it think, "You know what I need? Something to bring my steering back on center." That is a solution for a non-problem.
When you do get that you know the lower race needs replacing...
I sometimes think about it on uphills (slack head-angle --> more wheel wandering) but I don't think this system is the answer.
Yeah but ur not an engineer 30 years thats why.
Getting back to cycling after many years I am in shock and awe about all the technical gadgets and nonsense that seems to be necessary to ride a bicycle today. The younger consumers seem to be totally brainwashed by marketing. Paying extremely high prices for bikes and parts sounds like the only guarantee for propper cycling . If you need a spring to ride in a straight line you should probably just put a few more kilometers under your belt. A changing frame geometry was what cyclists feared most in my days, why do you now want to pay for it? Well, to each his own but I feel immensely refreshed by someone like you who still has a brain between his ears! 👏👏👏
Aww. I’ve never been so flattered 😊. Thank you.
‘Quiet, smooth, reliable’
Trust me, like most things in life, I’d just settle for reliable 🥳
Designs like this are a big part of why I left the bike industry. Bang on vid couldn't agree more. PS buy steel or titanium bikes
We have a Ti frame in, coming soon. It’s a nice one, so nobody will watch the vid 😅
None of this overpriced, overcomplicated nonsense excites me. If I am going to part with some serious wedge, the next bike will be lugged steel with caliper brakes and cable actuated gears. I know I sound like a ludd, but it works and works well. In my opinion the bike industry has been getting worse by the year with its "inovations" (money extraction techniques), mind you L shaped cranks and drilled components were shite ideas when I started riding, and the moneyed muggs still paid through the nose for them. Keep up the good work, great videos.
The more gimmicks these companies come up with the less inclined I am to go near the industry. Love a good rant btw.
...and the more and more I want to keep on riding my 2000 Merlin Road, and just swap out the Campy carbon cranks for one of their 10 speed metal alloy versions, and keep buying up every set of new, NARROW rim width, rim brake wheels I can find for it, before these effing 'planned obsolescence' manufacturers completely stop making anything which will fit between the chain stays.
Couldn't agree more with your observations here . I'm so tired of seeing these manufacturer led "solutions " to problems most riders didn't know they had .
more engineers than mechanics.
@@Mapdec Don't go sullying the good name of engineers with this nonsense.😉 This looks like the work of the "product design" department to me.
Eek. Yes you are right there. Sorry
THIS is the way I think about disc brakes.
Even though yes, granted, they are a little bit better in the modulation, and soaking wet braking departments,
Yet somehow, I am still alive today after having raced/trained/ridden on rim brakes exclusively for the last 50+ years.
I cannot even think of a scenario (even in the pouring rain, or on a long 'technical' downhill) where they caused me to crash while racing/training/riding for all of those years either.
All of the newbies/kiddies nowadays; "Oh, you're gonna DIE on rim brakes!" 🤣
Besides, I LOVE the aesthetics of a radial spoked front wheel, something (along with yes, tiny weight and aero penalties) discs have taken away from us. ☹😡
This is absolutely spot on. I thought the same when these two ‘innovations’ were announced. Having purchased from Canyon back in 2017 and experiencing just the issues you mention, it’s shocking to hear that they still exist. I will never buy from Canyon again and this springy thingy only affirms this. Keep up the excellent work!
Thank you Wesley
Bought a canyon in 2019 went for a threaded BB. No issues here ;)
That bike should be called “ The Anti Fit Bike”. Imaging paying 200~300 USD for a bike fit and then ride that thing 🤣😂
Current inflation is bad but inflation within bike prices has been at this level for a few years now. Of course there are justifications for part of the above inflation price rises we have seen year on year - higher R&D costs as bikes embraced the aero design, more complex tech - hydrolic brakes, electric shifting, carbon wheels etc. Though this should have at least been partly covered by cheaper manufacturing costs as almost everything moved is SE Asia - e.g Trek stopped making their OCLV frames in the US & outsourced to companies like Quest Carbon. I remember buying a Giant anodised TCR for around £1700 with full DA groupset & Mavic Krysiums. At the time it was all World Tour level parts.
Now the equivalent with a carbon frame electric groupset with disc brakes & own brand parts including carbon wheels is over 10k. I am not 100% sure the excuse that lower level bikes are as capable as top bikes a few years go really sticks given the price of 105 equipped bikes and there weight & the diminishing returns on aero improvements & that manufacturing quality seems to be decreasing rather than increasing. The gravel scene does seem to be following the MTB design path at an accelerated rate as they look to justify new models etc. Originally the concept seemed to be a step back to off road riding at a more simplified level given MTB's move to greater travel fs that can tackle ever more rugged terrain reasonably easily. Specialized was arguably one if the brands that brought mtb's to the masses but now seem set on making bikes as costly as possible. With the cost of living increases it will be interesting where the bike industry goes - will they continue to go to ever more expensive bikes to cover reduced sales or even lower manufacturing quality to save money or look to enhance their offerings at prices that a wider number of riders can afford?
Nailed it. That and you can’t choose to have a 105 groupset with good wheels. You are forced to have poor quality wheels the lower down the range you go.
Yes! I have a Canyon S14 VCLS 2.0 CF seatpost (which is actually an Ergon CF Allroad flex seatpost) which does something similar at fraction of the cost and much lighter, but it does cause the nose of the saddle to constantly push up on your groin like you said. I'm actually taking it off because of the discomfort from the saddle flexing. The new diverge will prob have a lot of issues with that new system, looks overly complicated, too many seals and moving parts for a bike meant to get covered in mud. Plus, it adds 400 g to the frame and it has too many settings. The front future shock is 500 g, so a diverge frameset is almost a 1 kg heavier than a regular gravel bike frameset. And they are very expensive! Why would you buy one?
Add a kilo to your carbon fibre bike anyone? Surely it would be easier to sell brown sugar water...
Agree 100%, proprietary nonsense that will be obsolete in a few years and impossible to fix or repairs rendering these stupidly expensive bikes to landfill.
How the hell do you get fitted for that Specialized 🥴?
True innovation (frame materials, dropper post, offset etc) has reached a plateau. In stead of refining the current offerings (less creaky, more durable, cheaper) some brands prefer to come up with this kind of “features”. Trek knockblock and headset cable routing also deserve a mention.
Yes. I think we need an era of refinement more than we do innovation right now.
I know that it isnt what you want but the quiet, smooth, reliable bike you're describing is a fixed gear bike in my mind. Thats what I always appreciate when I get on my fixed gear is the quiet, smooth and reassuring sturdiness compared to my other bikes. All that aside, the innovations discussed here arent really anything new, just look at all kinds of suspension in mountain bikes and steering springs in dutch utility bikes. Enjoying the channel!
Long ago there was a debate on whether it was better to suspend the bike or the rider. The verdict was it is better to suspend the bike and if you do suspend the rider it should be a small amount (Giant D-Fuse seatpost or Canyon VCLS seatpost). Specialized suspend the rider and offer excessive movement. I can't imagine variable saddle height and variable setback being a good thing.
I'm loving the Canyon VCLS seatpost and I'm considering to buy another one for my new bike. Though, now checking the market to see if alternatives popped up.
Finally! Finally someone that not only complains but also gives constructive suggestions. You made a great point on the seat post.
As much as I wanted to hate it, the Future shock on the steerer tube actually works, and is one of the lightest ways to have some front suspension. The alternatives are the Redshift stem, which is around the same weight, and the RS and Fox suspension forks, both significantly heavier and more complicated.
Same as Taylormade in the golf world. Just making stuff up to sell newer models and charging you more. You hit the nail on the head, just make good quality bikes! You’ve picked 2 manufactures I’ll never buy from, due to being ripped off with a SL4 Roubaix PF30 #specializedpileofpoo They offer a lifetime warranty on the frame but not when you have BB issues, so they say… Keep the rants, the industry needs a kick up the arse, it’s shocking😉😊👍
Thank you.
As a bike mechanic I dread the time when someone brings me one of those Canyon bikes with the pointless steering assist. As you state in the video, it'll be a nightmare to do a simple headset service.
My 20 year old trek and my old Brompton copy are just fine lol other than entry level bikes from good brands, I feel like almost everything above entry are filled with more things to go wrong. Nothing better than dragging your fancy new bike 20 miles back to the car.
Very point on comment about innovations which are not needed versus lack of quality control. Latter is the one those (plus others) bike companies should invest.
The ride with Ben Delaney just raced BigSugar in Arkansas on the S works Diverge and gave a really good review. He shared a lot of your sentiments regarding the arc of the saddle and the loss of connection from being all over the saddle
I have not seen that. Can you link us?
@@Mapdec ua-cam.com/video/LE1ysGIDtB0/v-deo.html
The best ideas have already been taken so they needed to come up with something so not to look irrelevant. Even if they only sell a few, mission accomplished.
I’m sure they will sell thousands 😂
Perfectly said. The kind of money we paid for bikes now a day. I want it to work as advertised and I want it to FIT.
I believe Keith Bontrager said something to the effect of “strong, light, cheap choose two” suffice it to say he was spot on
Wise man.
I'm old school and agree with you.
Spec and buy a handbuilt bike from a small, local company.
Keep it simple- I'm assembling a Titanium bike with Campy Record components- mechanical/rim brake.
totally agree. Manufacturers are continually in a technological headlong rush. They forget that they lose their customers along the way. moreover, we are practically forced to follow because there is almost no prop tracking anymore. we see it with the transition from the brake pad to the disc. also at Shimano, I can no longer find the Di2 for my caliper brakes bike. etc... We almost become hostages of this system. Yet when I ride my old bike from 15-20 years ago, it's still very good and I don't forget that champions have won very big races on an identical bike. now it's worth nothing or wait another 20 years for it to become a collector's item ah ah ah
It’s like the car that Homer Simpson made. Just keep bolting on features until peak ridiculous
just in case bike prices haven't gone to the roof already, now brands come up with extra crap that justifies charging you even more for some dubious tech...
Bang on 100%.
Also the fundemental flaw with Futureshock is that it's all just isolating the rider from the surface, there's no real performance benefit that you'd get from actual suspension (improving traction). I'd sooner rather add inserts and lower the pressure, gain traction (and sidewall support, damage resistance, reliability) for 50grams a wheel for $50 than 400-500grams of Futureshock for an extra $1500 premium.
Yup. Think you nailed it dude.
Being a heavy rider (235lb) who has blown out 2 future shocks over past 3 years I see this failing quickly!
I agree with you for the most part, I just need to point out a few things: The Spezialized futureshock saddle suspension has a max. travel of 30mm. On a 55 cm frame, that would result in less than 3 degrees of saddle tilt. So you actually get more travel and less saddle tilt than with a flexible seat post. My main issue is, that the direction of travel is a lot more backwards than downwards, so we'll see how much this system improves comfort.
Secondly, the hard limit of the Canyon KIS will probably affect very few people, because those extreme steering angles are only used when manuvering the bike, not while riding. But I guess the best effect is that you can now lean your bike angainst a wall and not worry about the front weel turning and rolling away ;)
All good points thank you. When we bike fit we adjust saddle tilt by 0.5° and fore / aft to the mm, I’m perplexed by this idea of a saddle and bars moving
Remember the fastest bikes in the UCI gravel race were just bastardised road bikes with disc brakes and wider tires.The trend is going towards deep section fat bike fully with road drop bars. Maximum suspension, maximum compliance, maximum comfort. Holds speed well is 15% stiffer than a wet noodle.
Brought to you by oval bottom bracket tolerances.
I’ll wait until gravel bikes come with flat bars 😂
Agree: reliable, durable, consistent (good) handling with silent bottom bracket ( :) ).
Completely agree. It's particularly ironic that Canyon's acronym is KIS.... I immediately think Keep it Simple. I then laugh -- and then sigh.
QUIET, SMOOTH, RELIABLE! Yes, I completely agree. I am constantly working to make my bikes quiet and smooth. I’m currently trying to quiet down my gravel bike hose slap in the handlebar. Ugghhhhh…. Annoying!
If you look at vehicle suspension design, you should be supporting the platform (spring) and allowing movement but controlling the movement (damper) to prevent under or overshoot (slow to respond or oscillations).
I understand that a bicycle is a different design challenge however disciplines are getting so blurred into each other that results in these 'niche' products. I suspect the fastest gravel bike is a full suspension MTB with drop bars (or even tri-bars) to reduce the frontal area. With the platform being sprung and wheels allowed to move and controlled you will have far more traction, less vertical movement, better rider fatigue protection and the possibility the ability to reduce the tyre width down until you're traction limited. 'Supporting' the rider only protects rider from fatigue, it doesn't add to the bike's capability.
A road bike is a little bit more challenging due to the issue of excessive weight, or so I'm told (I could lose more body weight than I'd ever drop from my bike!). I think here making a sensible tyre choice can pay dividends. I've found that Hutchinson's Fusion5 TLR in a 30mm width is the best I've ever ridden for spring/damper/NVH. If I wanted to be more 'aero' a 28mm front tyre would work.
Re Canyon: Does a MTB have an issue with caster/dead ahead? I didn't think the discipline warranted much hands off the steering wheel riding!!!
And as for having a centre hard stop on a steering device is bonkers. You'll need more steering torque for small steering adjustments which will cause overshoot. I bet the Pros won't be seen with this 🙄
Great points.
New to this channel, so late to comment. Basically the bike manufacturers are in an “Arms race” at the moment. Every year they promise more power saving, stiffer frames blah blah blah.... It is nonsense, so I do agree with you on where they should focus 😎🇫🇮
When the rear triangle/wheel is deflected upwards then the frame will kick up whilst the saddle will stay at he same angle relative to the ground due to the lateral suspension element - so in fact the saddle doesn't move in an arc. This will increase the comfort for the cyclist I'don't know if that makes the bike any faster unless there is some rebound in the suspension.
Kudos for you trying to explain the mechanism something practically every single reviewer has failed to do - GC Components or whatever he's called was about to then just diverted on how difficult/easy it may be to disassemble the mechanism (???)
Yeah. I saw that buried in the small text. I think that relationship would be pretty hard to tune.
100% agree with your opinion, I felt exactly the same.
Totally agree. We need to put more resources towards QC.
I agree with you on the Specialized but not quite on the Canyon. Mountain bikes are getting slacker and slacker head angle which are great for descending rough stuff but the wheel flop is dangerous at low speeds. Basically once the handlebars turn about 30 degrees off axis the front wheel will quickly collapse on itself. You can easily test this by trying to lean any modern, slack mountain bike with it's handlebar against the wall, it will fall over much easier than older, steeper bikes. I'm not sure how well Canyon's implementation works but they are legitimately trying to solve a real problem with slack mountain bikes.
Great comment. I ride a slack hardtail at the moment, I’ll admit it took a few rides to adjust my ride style to it. I would call it dangerous, but there is something there.
My 20 year old Trek 5200 is still absolutely faultless, quiet and relatively light. How many modern bikes do we think will last that long? Pretty sure we can say "not many".
Defo
Hehe I feel your pain man. When the Aethos came out, I thought that was great, Just a no nonsense well made bike.
Couldn’t agree more, there’s so many great products out there, but refinement seems to be the last thing on the minds of the bike industry. It seems that things have got so good that they now need this type of drivel to stand out.
Spot on 👍🏼🚴🏻♂️
Just came back from a week of cycling at Gran Canaria.
Rented the Specialized Roubaix, it had the same damping mech in the front / handlebar as the Diverge.
It was rubbish.
It doesn't provide damping in the right way, just seemed weird.
Also, there is (supposed to be) a lockout function, but it did not function properly, causing the handlebar to bounce up & down while standing.
We were 3 guys riding identical bikes, they were all the same.
Also, the bike just seemed heavy, sluggish and without sufficient stiffness in the right areas.
Upon delivery, i told the staff that the first time we were in GC (january 2010), we rented the Supersix Hi mod eqipped with Sram Red (rim brakes), and we found it to be a much better bike.
Probably 2 kg lighter, more responsive and just a lovely, un-complicated bike, like it's supposed to be.
The guys at the shop agreed:
- oh yes, much better than this garbage (referring to the Roubaix).
So, what progress has actually been made over the last 10-ish years? 😯
Over-complicated bikes, often heavier (disc brakes), harder to work on (fully integrated cables, internal damping systems etc.), no increase in overall stiffness or quality and generally overpriced. 🤷♂️
The fact that many of the big brands are going back to threaded bb's, also suggests that profit comes before quality.
Sorry for the rant... 🙈😅
Top rant. This is the place to do it. Many cycling holidays have been ruined by that bike.
Great video. BITD brands were differentiated on build quality but that costs money per frame. I think they're looking for gimmicks now so you choose their product over rivals' even though they're all made to the same low standard at low cost. You're supposedly paying for their genius design work instead of the skills and experience of someone with a torch. If you want a quiet and reliable bike get a custom steel frame and build it up with components from manufacturers like Hope.
On the specialised, i totally agree that it seems like it would make things worse for the rider. On the canyon though, i think rather than bashing the idea straight away, why not wait for people to try it and see if it’s any good, not seen any major manufacturers introduce any system like this before so i would be curious to see what response it gets from riders.
It’s a design on licence from Liteville and Syntace apparently. Ummm.
Because it's a stupid idea. It's not going to get less stupid with time
I agree 101%. Canyon could not deliver my canyon Grail properly. The fork connection rod was 2 mm to long and would not stay fixed in their ‘special’ cockpit. The service dept did not understand the technical parts in the cockpit. Luckily my LBS did a good job. Keep the basic systems good and stupid simple.
This video is so on point regarding the bs marketing spin bike manufacturers are pumping out…
Well said mate, this is easily the most sensible and concise video on the madness that is the modern bike industry . That Specialised, Canyon and now Bianchi with their 'frame nostrils' are 100% junk. If people stop paying the ridiculous prices, maybe designers won't be so driven to capture the top end of the market and concentrate on giving us all a decent product.
Thank you Andy
For the ideal bike that you are describing, you should check out Greg LeMond’s new LeMond 8, which is a completely new type of carbon throughout the entire frame, including bottom bracket shell. Made In Tennessee, USA.
Interesting. Thank you.
This is really nice these products came out about same time and you review them together, as they share one principal similarity. No, it is not that they put more harm than good as you say. It is that they are technically rudeimental, they do insignificant or nothing. There is plenty of other movements to overwrite the shock and there are greater forces to overpower the stabilizer.
And that kick in the balls - actually, would be a good thing as there is constant slipping forward on the saddle on a rough track. But the correction is too suttle (because it still needs to be gentle)
A gentle kick in the balls. Sometimes this is what we all need. 😀
@@Mapdec when they are made of steel, how else would you apply work hardening? 🤔
That canyon thing has me stumped. A bike will track due to geometry (fork rake and all that), this device is going to do f€ck all to improve stability. If anything it will make steering odd because it will push to neutral even if that is not what the rider needs.
And the Diverge. Suspending the the point of the rider was done with the Girvin Flexstem seat posts on trekking bikes. Turned out to be a suboptimal situation. The seat not being suspended, but moving in an arc is a weird thing too. That is going to put a strain on your lower back for sure
the kis system is benficial....a lot of downhil riders want stiffer steering to resist "wheel bump steer" more. they usually achieve this by overtightening their steering bearings. this system achieves the same effect with the added bonus of its always pulling your steering to centre.
It’s like the treck knock block , i just dont see the need and if you want to use a different stem , you cant.
“I don’t want cables rattling on the inside my frame, I just want to have a bike that is reliable and durable and quiet.“ You are describing my Litespeed titanium frame.
The only reason they use carbon is because it’s cheap for the manufacturers and it makes the most profit. Titanium frames don’t require any additional suspension to make them comfortable and the BBs and brake mounts are perfect. The only reason to “innervate” the carbon bike is to make it look like something worth buying… and it’s not. Carbon is trash, Specialized is trash Trek is trash but the moronic masses will fall over themselves to buy this junk.
I had a customer who bought the Specialized roubaix (you know, the bike with the bouncy headset that has a safety recall) and then a Litespeed T6. Now the Roubaix had 28mm tyres, a carbon seatpost with gel buffers in it, the spring headset (future shock) and a big fat saddle. The Litespeed T6 had a titanium frame with slender chain stays. The owner said the the T6 was just as comfortable as the Roubaix, but the T6 was also easier to maintain (because no techno junk) and it was 500g lighter! So yeah, I have plenty of examples of this situation, a well made metal frame being better than a complex and fragile cheaply made in China carbon frame.
Carbon is crap, stop giving money to these corrupt and rubbish companies who don’t care about quality. Go Litespeed Titanium and you won’t ever look back.
All I want is a grx 400 group set to upgrade my current bike. Wish me luck finding that
I agree with everything you said. I am specialized fan for sure but this is a big mistake by Specialized. So glad I bought a 2022 Diverge Expert weeks before this crap came out.
Totally agree …utter garbage ideas 👍“Maintenance free”? Yeah right sure it is 😔
As long as the customers keep buying rubbish the producers will keep making it.
Wholeheartedly agree on the "reliable and quite" part. I just think that your comment is a little misdirected. There are a lot of manufacturers out there that actually produce reliable and quite frames: however, they produce in small(er) badges and it may take some time to find the frame you want. Canyon and Specialized are huge companies that are build on constant growth and permanent "innovation" (in the literal sense: constantly coming up with something new, regardless if actually needed); such company structures will most likely sacrifice quality first.
Really like the channel btw. Though that cracking handle bar scared the shit out of me! Hahaha
Thanks Daniel. Yes there are some lovely brands out there. I have a Ti MTB hitting the channel soon if just that Idea.
As soon as I saw that system from Canyon I was like “no f ing way on any bike I’d ever own”.
A bespoke metal frame with thru axle but rim brake. Of course you'll currently have to lace up a disc hub...preferably tubular
Totally agree with you. Continuous variation of 2 of the contact points seems a really bad idea. And the nose of the saddle pitching up, could get painful. Manufacturers are using (snake oil) 'innovations' to artificially inflate, and try to justify, high prices. They can't even get the basics right most of the time, quality and detail engineering across the industry is pretty mediocre at best.
Well said
STR was invented in the 80's by Softride, There are benefits if done correctly, but of course the weight weenies will resist.
Finally someone who gets it. The bike industry is gone crazy with marketing gimmicks. Next thing will be mullet areo bikes.
Basically the bog firms want to change the way we cycle and how the bike works....just look at th way disc brakes have taken over,i for one hate them,they are draggy crap in the wet and weigh more than a rim brake option.Specialzed and canyon 7 years ago were a great brand,nowdays brands such as Winspace-Elves-Trifox-Ican-Yoeleo are all viable options same as there wheels,if they are not careful these big brands will loose loads of custom because of trying to change the way we cycle!
Maybe it will prove that all we want is a bike that works.
This is a case of engineers justifying their job. Totally agree with about getting the basics right.
Specialized should have stayed with the Zertz shock absorber design that they had on the Diverge and Roubaix in the early 2010s. It was the perfect balance between a racing bike and comfort when it came to being on those rough roads.
Yeah, no-one ever said the Roubaix was uncomfortable but we ended up with futureshock headset. Heavy, expensive and ugly.....
I bet all these “innovations” also need specialist tools to service them too.
Both manufacturers have QC issues with their ordinary frames. Specialized have reverted to threaded BB and Canyon are STILL selling a creaking seatpost in the Aeroad.
Fatter lightweight supple tires would probably be the best suspension system.
If you want what specialized did for a shitload of money, just buy a Cane Creek eeSilk. It will archieve the same goal for a load less money and less weight. It will also archieve this goal much better, because the movement is in the ride direction so your hip angle won't be all over the place and you won't slide across the saddle all the time.
Yes. And importantly the parallelogram keeps the saddle level even if it does move fore and aft a bit.
Hi, been watching a few of your videos, could you list a few bike brands that you would recommend? Alot of people highlight the brands that have problems but are not so forthcoming in what they would recommend (also know that no brand is perfect), in the market the for new bike hence the question, thanks :)
Hey. I get asked this a lot, and really it is hard. As you can see poor quality come from across the spectrum. I hope my vids will help you spot issues.
Dude, all I want now is a well built and dope looking bike I can trust for a long while. Bring back good steel, for all I care. Maybe the hipsters are right.
Somewhere between nostalgic hipsters and pointless tech is a high quality, well made bike with tech that increases durability and function.
The true issue is that the only thing new in that whole design is the moving seat post the front shock fork idea in the headset tube has been around for quite some time so they just took an old idea and re amped it and made it modernized and probably more complicated in the long run other then that it’s unoriginal so it’s not really innovative
Love it!! Bike companies have decided to ignore the historic customer base and instead concentrate on gouging newcomers to the sport - who seem to be coming from the golf course and marina with WAY more cash than sense. How long could that suspension realistically hold, one year? That’s the next step - new versions of bikes yearly, like iPhones, and to hell with any remaining build quality….😢
Thing is, those customers are the ones that (rightly) demand that everything is quiet, smooth, works flawlessly and can be repaired yesterday.
@@Mapdec The new people just take their bike to the bike shop to get repaired though, that's why all internal cables are so popular...
As regards to the last sentence above; we are basically there RIGHT NOW!
Go out and TRY to buy a new rim brake wheel, especially a narrower one. ☹😡
How long until they declare disc brakes 'obsolete', and force you onto a new $20K USD ride with said 'latest and greatest tech', because you cannot buy wheels to work with your now 'ancient tech', but supposedly 'phenomenal' discs?!?!
@@LS1conehead You have to go chinese, aliexpress or Winspace/Trifox/Yoleo/FarSports etc. I have almost 4,000 miles on my FarSports wheels which cost me $700, and weigh 1200g for the pair...
@@Silidons91 but why the heck would you want to bother servicing your own bike? Don’t you have better things to do? You could be reading a book and having a cop of coffee, instead of sweating away trying to coax some stupid gear to just shift properly.
If all it takes to have someone do the job for me is just petty cash, then that sounds like money well spent.
The motion of the Spec diverge is 90⁰ from the direction of the bump impact, so there's always going to be a ton of useless movement for any useful suspension 😁
Like getting sea sick on a bicycle.
“Morgan Hill, we have a problem”.
I ride titanium until carbon is more reliable. I have had carbon bikes and love their weight and stiffness but changing the frame due to cracks gets so old. Will it be covered by warranty? visiting the bike shop to build up the warranty frame. such a hassle. Owning titanium is like driving a toyota/lexus.. a bit boring but almost never a need to be serviced.
I agree 100% this branded non sense. I am just admiring TIME and Look bike frames quality and technology.
I have the older Diverge with the future shock in the headset and I quite like it. I didn't buy the bike because of it but I do see the benefit. The seat post wobbly stuff though is terrible.
It's interesting you say about a reliable, tough carbon frame that's an investment piece. It's that way now in MTB. I bought a Santa Cruz Hightower a few years back. Lifetime warranty and crash replacement with the latest model, no questions asked, free bearings for the lifetime of the frame etc. and it's tougher than the aluminum version. To me it seems the road market - which I include gr*vel, is years behind.
That is a great point about Santa Cruz. Has your future shock started making a horrible grinding noise yet? Keep it clean and lubed and it will be fine. Once it’s got rusty they just sound horrible.
@@Mapdec It's still working fine without any noise. I haven't opened it up but I assume I can just pack it with some grease if it starts making noise. I didn't know it was an issue tbh.