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BF20 G0704 Chinese spindle 2.2kw UPDATED FREE F360 PLANS FOR DOWNLOAD
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- Опубліковано 9 вер 2017
- Received several requests on how this mount was bolted together.
Currently using this spindle with good result to cut aluminium using mainly carbide mills. Be aware that the spindle came with a huge runout of about 0,1mm (better than the first one i received which had 0,3mm runout) This runout makes these spindles useless, since it gives an uneven load on the tool (assuming it's using helix flutes)
Here is the download link for the F360 files;
a360.co/2ZAJ0DG
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incredible how the rigidity of a bigger machine makes that spindle a beast
Thanks for your comment and watching! The BF20L is not the most sturdy machine, the spindle can do better in a more stable machine. There are online feed/speed calculators available that give you the required power/torque, based on a few variables (material to cut, diameter of the mill, chipload, rpm, WOC/DOC). It gives a good insight on what to expect what the spindle is capable of. Some opps require more torque (like facing with a 50mm mill) But with a spindle like this you need to take many small cuts instead of 1 fat (basically, more in line with the nowadays more common smarter toolpaths), so a fast accelerating/moving machine might be practical if time is an issue. Being a mortal human, time is always an issue. (best excuse in the world)..
Thanks for posting! I was considering mounting the motor directly to the stock head casting for now.
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It's good. But if a same good quality spindle of rectangular shape one can be bought. The mounting method will be simpler.
Few sidenotes. At the time of making this, the square spindle weren't available. But even when available, I dear to question if it's 'better' A square spindle might be a tad less stiffer than a proper mounted round one. Don't know if you ever observed a square one, on my other machine that's cutting dibond, i'm using a square 2.2kw. When looking at the top/bottom of the motor, you'll see that it's constructed from a relative thin aluminum profile. On the other hand, a water cooled 2.2 uses a 7005 bearings on the bottom and the square uses 7007's. Mounting a square one requires a ~90 mm thick backplate. (unless you make it from a box, which could be made like a torsion-box)When making it from a solid piece the only way to tilt it is if you make a slot in the bottom of it, to make room for a wrench. Proper alignement might be an exercise with a square spindle though. The way this mount is designed is with a mild floating top-plate, so you can perfectly allign it x/y/z wise (when putting shims somewhere for alignement, you might loose structural strength, since the contact-area is getting smaller) I'm not saying this is the least complex way of making a mount, but I simple had these sheets available. I wasn't looking for a commercial optimal repeatability for production. Square motors are also always air-cooled, for low RPM applications requiring some torque (drilling for example), you might optimize their air-flow. (on my other machine, with the square 2.2kw I put a high flow fan on top and removed the motor-driven fan).
hi, nice job, could you share or send me the measurements of the pieces or the cad drawings?
Thank you.
Federico
The stock i used was pretty un-standard. It could be made simpler. (with the help of some 20mm aluminium plates and polymer concrete) You're not the first who asks, I have to go through some old images from my previous PC. Can't promise it will happen soon though.
What is the minimum distance between table and the z axis? I am currently build a similar structure, but I cannot decide the distance. My z axis has got 300mm linear rail, expect to have 150mm travel distance.
If memory serves right, is 230mm
@@berendlucasvanderweide thank you very much, mine is going to be 250-300mm. My current project looks very similar whereas my column is combined from 2 short columns 200×200×400 with plates 250x300x15 on top and bottom. I have built it this way, because I am planning to convert it to double columns later on.
wow this is a good. how fast is your spindle looks like more than 10 000rpm? where did you get this spindle? can you work with a low rpm also? i just baught a bf20 but already thinking about change the spindle motor... thank for posting guys
Hi Cedric! thanks for your comment. The spindle is a 'china-spindle' The typical round cilinder 80mm type. It's a relative standard. RPM range is 6000-24000rpm (lowest setting can be adjusted in the VFD, mine is set at 3000rpm) and if you use a vector based VFD (the controlbox that makes the spindle turn) it has a good amount of torque at lower RPM's. Don't expect it to have boatloads of power at lower RPM, so a 50mm face-mill taking of 4mm depth of cut it not possible. Just make sure, that when you buy a spindle with the intention to drill that it uses angular contact bearings (they can withstand both axial and radial forces) while the standard used bearings in these spindles are probably not angular contact bearings) The spindle is available on Alie and Ebay. For my other project though, i recently bought a square spindle, which is easier to mount. The good thing about these 80mm spindles is that they also come in ATC version, so swapping it out later for an ATC version is easier if you use an 80mm mount. With a spindle like this it's not possible to do rigid tapping. You could however use a special shaped tapping mill.. (though they are expensive)
Thanks for those information, for me now i still need polivatent milling machine. Is it long to swapping this spindle to the original spindle? Thanks
No, it just tightens with the 2 original screws (which is kind of a poor design if you ask me); if you make a fixture to align the spindle-head it could be swapped pretty easy. Only thing is that the original head weighs around 25kg, which might require more than 2 hands to mount/unmount.
if I understood this correctly, this spindle would be good for milling aluminum with a large cutter at high rpm, but wouldn't be good for drilling. An all in one spindle capable of drilling would be much more expensive right?
It depends, you can more or less drill on a higher RPM, but that requires a carbide drill. I wouldn't drill with anything bigger than 6mm. You could buy a permanent magnet spindel (only commercial available model known to me is with an ATC). What you could do is use a beefier spindle (something like 4KW) and use a sensorless vector based VFD.
But you can also settle for a smaller spindle and make the holes using a smaller carbide cutter with a spiral down motion. It all depends on what you want and how fast you need it done.
@@berendlucasvanderweide Thanks for the fast reply. Looks like I'll be doing somethings similar with my g0704 when I get it. What feed and speed were you using for aluminum with this machine?
was actually looking into using the spindle like yours as a motor using the original bf20 head and a beltdrive to the bf20 spindle
currently try to find a chineese manufaturer that can sell them with a solid axle and no collet (no luck yet)
looking at wat you build : i can buy a crossslide as the one for the bf20 for 400 euro , if i make my own mast (never been a strong part in the bf20 anyway) , it be a lot cheaper than buying a complete mill
About that solid axle; that's not mandatory, you could fit a 12mm or a 1/2" collet in it, don't know if you have access to lathe, but a press/shrink fit for the pinion to that shaft/pinion and your golden. The radial load on the bearings won't be a problem. I expect the bearings in the stock head are not capable of turning any faster than 8000rpm, something to consider! I like this high RPM conversion a lot, i'm currently producing a bunch of aluminum parts for my new CNC (portal-type, i'm planning on posting a video of the concept). About these spindles; It would be nice if it was capable of pushing a 100mm fly-cutter for facing , but the high RPM are more important to me than the torque required to push the fly cutter. About the weak Z axis; you could mount it to a concrete wall, if available. That would be a good upgrade too to give it more stability. With the stock head I was using a gas-spring as a counterweight, but with these light spindles that's not needed.
i actually had considered using the chuck to mount a pulley to a stock spinle motor 12mm would be about the right size for it
thing is the distance from the motorhousing to the pulley becomes quite high making mounting the thing on top of the BF20 head in place of the stock motor a little harder unless i mount the pulleys inside the housing where the gears are now (would make replacing a belt quite an operation )
might need to find a way to make the pulley as a deep dish (like the waterpump pulley on a car engine ) and mount over the chuck toward the motor
want to make a high low double v belt gearing pulley
gotten word back from the chineese man .... no such thing as a solid axle option for these things
paulimot has a nice german motor and regulator on a clone of my mill , but they whont sell it to me unless i have a paulimot mill ..... tempting but no
i have acces to a lathe (brandnew) and i will build a lot of the stuff myself , have to make a flange style mount to replace the front bearingcap for the chineese spindle motor on the lathe anyway so that i can mount it on top of the mill
prolly make the pulley system too , i do plan to slow the rpm down some and get a little more tork as i do want to run a fly cutter
the spindle bearings in the BF20 definetely arent rated for speeds over 5000 rpm but there a stock nema size and i can get good highspeed tapered bearings for them
i have seen the wall brace for the z axis you mentioned , (was in a youtube video by a dutch guy ) problem is my shop is on the second floor of a rental flat , imagine the low frequency hum and high squeel with the mill running through steel
the sound will go through the whole flat and neighbours whont be amused once they locate the source of the sound , prolly be cause to become evicted , i'm trying rubber tiles at this moment to prevent any contact noises
i want to use the stock head and spindle with a BF28 style drive upgrade , the reason why i was considering the spindle motor versus a regulair 3 phase 1.1 to 2 kW AC motor is that the spindle motor seems to be a LOT lighter and less builky (was thinking about the same problem with the gasstrut setup / contraweight and was kindah hoping to avoid it as it put extra load on the mast)
the chineese spindles are kindah cheap and plentyfull too and have a lot of bearings in them , was planning on a watercooled one so i dont have mush fan noise either
would be nice to find someone with a worn / damaged spindlemotor (parts) he dont care mush about that i can have / buy for next to nothing so i can experiment with some other ideas i had
like welding the tapered hole up , then grind the tread off the outside with a toolpost grinder and slim it down untill the axle is the same size as the pulley and made perfectly round on the lathe , then cut a keyway in the axle thats left and push the pulley on
it would make the thing end up like i wanted to buy it in the first place without loosing up to 100 euro if the experiment fails
definetely considering the heat from welding it up to damage / bend the rotor too mush to get it to work again
have seen another option if you realy want the high speed of the sopindle motor on a mill but dont want to built a completely new head for the mill , and that was to mount the spindle motor on the side of the BF20 at about the same height as the original chuck , the center moves to the side but you have a little more flexibillity in the one CNC machine
it was the first thing i considered to just mount the pulley in the chuck of the chineese router spindle
the bearings prolly can take it but its still hard to mount the spindle on top of the mill if the axle is as long as it would be with the pulley hanging on the end of it
gotten word back from the chinaman : no such thing available as a solid axle for these things ... bummer
might still mount the puley using the chuck , want to make a special mounting flange on the lathe that will replace the front bearingcap of the routerspindle so i can mount it standing over the top of the mountingpoints with the axle hanging down
i can make that deeper so it mounts with less of the chuck sticking out
the stock bearings in a BF20 definetely cant spin at 8000 rpm ...... whell they can for a little while but then they weld together solidly , i can get better tapered high speed bearings for it but i still wouldnt run it that fast , be using bigger (fly) cutters too probably
i have seen the wallmount you mentioned in a dutch youtube video , and although a have concrete walls in my place , the place i live in is a rental flat and contactnoises are definetely reason to get on a bad footing with neighbours , have everything here sitting on solid rubber tiles as it is . might build an A frame where the whole base of the mill mounts up to
dont realy want to use a gasstrut or counterweights as that will put more loads on the mast of the machine
it was allso the reason why i was looking intoo the chineese spindle compared to the 1.5 kW 380 volt ac industrial motor
curious to see youre machines and inventions , the video of the homemade head was kinda genious as in "why doing it the hard way and built a cnc router out of aluminium profiles and make it stronger and heavier with slabs of aluminium to be able to cut aluminium with some acuracy when you can do it like this "
have another idea about getting a solid axle on the chineese spindle , it mostly involves welding the tapered hole up and then grinding the outside of the axle down to the size of the puley and cut a slot in it
whont be doing this to a new motor but if someone in the netherlands has a (realy) cheap worn / bad chineese router spindle i can have for verry little cash i might give it a try
Reason why I'm building the other machine is because I need a higher acceleration for some projects I have in mind and a larger work-area. (it's using the relative cheap 180W servo-motors that seem to be hip nowadays) You could also use the spindle and grind down the threads and mount the pulley directly on the part that has the slots for the wrench.
Currently awaiting delivery of the aluminum profiles, all machined parts are finished; cloud1.zoolz.co.uk/s-ldeTg61J
wow , bought the plans for the raw 1.3 they use a lot thinner profiles
nice job and thanks for sharing the files. Been a year and a half how has this been working for you? Ray
Hi Ray, thanks for your comment! I've had it up and running for a longer period of time, I guess about 3 years or so. Just make sure you warm up the spindle before use. I've never regretted rebuilding it. I kept the original headstock, just in case. But never had the urge/need to change it back. I've built another machine that's using a square 24k spindle, and i'm a fan of higher RPM, smaller mills over larger mills/higher torque/lower RPM. (the latter relies more on the strength of the machine, which it somewhat lacks for the Z axis of this machine). I've produced the parts for the new machine on the BF20 and sold the BF20. about a year back.
@@berendlucasvanderweide Interesting. I haven't really considered this idea before but it makes sense. There may be more harmonics of a lower order with a larger machine at slower rpm, at least until you have enough cast iron mass in thr larger machine. Always wanted a Bridgeport but maybe I'll just stick with the rf-45 I already have.
do you have the dimensions of this conversion? i have the same mill and spindle and would love to make this conversion happen. Thanks!
Hi Danilo; it's currently based on an odd sized plates I had.
(27mm, if memory serves right) 30mm is easier i think. I probably could adjust the drawings for standard (metric) aluminum plates. Perhaps a square spindle is easier to do the conversion with. They are air-cooled however, which should be fine if you use it above 12000rpm or add a forced air fan. Need to dig into backups, since the PC i initially made them on gave up.
Hey mate, I was wondering how effective your tramming method is compared to a standard tramming tool? I like your method as it doesn’t require a special tramming tool :)
Heya! thanks for stopping by, interesting question; you should check it on more than 1 angle and in several ways. This method only tells if the spindle is moving in a straight line on 1 point. This means there could still be an angle in the Z that you compensate to 0 by misaligning the spindle. Don't try this with a square spindle, this spindle was known to be true, since i used the parallel part of the outside of the spindle as a reference to grind and elliminate the runout.You should also check with the dial indicator attached to the spindle and measure the angle of the bed. In other words; eventually you do need something with a perfect 90 degree angle. I don't like the tramming tools with two clocks, since they only give you an insight if the spindle is square to the bed. So if the bed is uneven or has a sag, you compensate on that point. With a VMC this adjustment is easier than on a portal, since the latter also depend on the straightness of the X-axis. Alligning machines perfectly within 0,01 accuracy is an artform. It's hard to describe with only words. You also want to know if the Z is moving straight; final test can be done with a rod clamped in (on my large machine, i have a 250mm long rod that is 0,002 accurate with the proper taper that fits the ATC. This is easy if you have a hair angle and you can also measure the up/down error. But you can also do this with a simple rod that doesn't have to be perfectly straight. (it's easier if it is, but not mandatory) Just measure the runout on that rod by rotating the spindle, and make sure to take an average of the 2 peaks in the runout to determine the true position of the rod. Alligning is an adventure itself... ;):)
Berend Lucas van der Weide ah yes I understand. I am using a cnc router, and was wondering if I could check along the sleeve for both x and y? Doesn’t need to be perfect but I would hope I wouldn’t get a bad finish? Also, with this method did you get the criss-cross pattern left from the end mill in facing operations (usually indicates a good tram)?
@@aaronfonseca6031 yeh, this method gives quick insight, but you have to have a known reference to be true in order to have good results. For facing, you can slightly tilt the head for the best possible finish. (but it can also indicate that your machine has a difference in stiffness going from one side to the other). What is your portal made of? aluminium profiles or steel?
Berend Lucas van der Weide ok, I have a steel table on the machine and I would use it as a surface to measure from. I’m not too sure what you mean by portal? The frame of the machine is steel and the gantry is aluminium, it’s a Chinese 1212 machine, if you just give a google for “TEG1212 CNC” you will see my machine (yes my own machine before it was shipped from China). I cut aluminium parts for Rc cars and want to get a decent surface finish. I just want to know if you are happy with your results from this tramming method or weather I should invest into a tramming tool?
@@aaronfonseca6031 Tramming tools give you an insight, but perform some accurate measurements on your machine first. I use all sorts of tools, but no specific tramming tools. Just test the straight rod in the collet and measure to see if there is an error in moving up/down. The issues with the surface finish, are these on the facing opps i assume? Just face in 1 direction and determine what motion gives the best finish. What diameter tool are you using for surfacing the material? A slightly angled head gives the best surface finish possible with facing.
oh! :) ignore my lasst comment :D
Testing on aluminium is no test as even a cheap SX2 will cut ally.......try steel and then do the analysis.....this is a mill not a router which at best will cut ally etc.
I've always subscribed to the need to have less weight in the head casting especially on any CNC mill retrofit, mainly for peck drilling but also for manual mills too so that the cast iron head weight counterweighting or gas strutting is not as critical.
It's unclear to me what your angle is. I wasn't aware i was doing any analysis in the vid. my cutting exists of almost no steel at all., Make the machine that (you think) suits your requirements. A BF 20 is poorly executed. It has an unstable Z beam, my router (that has cut hardened steel) is more stiff than this BF20. If i wanted to mainly cut steel i wouldn't have picked the BF20. The upgrade to a high RPM spindle wouldn't make sense since the speeds and feeds for steel are different than for aluminium. About the light weight head for pecking for drilling > HF spindles are not meant for that, on low
What methods reduce TIR?
On this spindle it took some effort to get the spindle straight.. aligned it in the lathe, grinded the ER20 taper as accurate as possible. Runout was huge, noticed an imbalance too running it at higher RPM. Used the motors own rotor/power to make it turn in the lathe. But in general the TIR is depending on the sum of all factors; how relative parallel the ER20 taper is to the shaft, (angular TIR) how accurate the used collets are (both radial and angular) and how 'perfect parallel' the taper of the collets is in relation to the spanner (if this is not the case, tools will deflect badly as per design of this clamping mechanism) And lastly; how accurate the cutter is grinded. You can use a collet that has 0,01 runout and a spindle that has 0,01 runout to rule out the TIR of both by simple turning the collet. But best is to have them both below 0,01 in my opinion.
cool machine you have there!
Says the man with the MOST wicked g0704 conversion! Can't wait to see yours finished! Great work on your G0704, makes mine look like a shy schoolgirl. :)
Thank you for the compliments! School girl or not, i really like how you did the high speed spindle. I have been curious for a while how it would work! keep it up... and i know you could regrind the spindle taper in the machine to get near 0 run out. - Nick
Yes, indeed! i could have made a vid of the process of grinding it, but it would take ages.. It would have been one of the longest vids on youtube.. :).. Seriously, i could make one in the near future of the new spindle i'm planning to use on my new CNC. But the process is pretty straight-forward. aligning the spindle and the proper taper is the most time-consuming.
What software /motors/drivers /boards are you using?
Hi Tom; It's using edingcnc as a controller (pretty clever board and clean UI) I do like uccnc too. The motors on x/y are 4.5Nm (could have been way, way lighter) and the motor on Z is a 9Nm (which could have been way, way lighter as well) my best advice is to use a higher voltage setup, and look at the speed/torque curves from the manufacturer if available. With steppers a higher voltage results in more torque at higher RPM's. XY is using 1604 ballscrews, Z is using a 2005 ballscrew. Voltage on this setup is 75V. Drivers are Leadshine with DSP (at their lowest possible current for the smoothest operation, still providing plenty of torque)
been looking intoo centroid acorn its a program based of a professional setup and a verry complete controllboard
good thing about it is that you can do solid tapping and treadcutting with it using an encoder , uccnc cant do that (yet) and mach not quite as good at it and you can do 3d probing with it (if you can afford the probe and the pro version of the centroid program, that is )
the edingcnc can use an encoder, as well as a probe, it's very capable hard- and software, with amazing support (no affiliation, just had a few 'support required' moments, and they have been more than helpful). their policy is 'If possible, it should work as the customer has intended'.
Berend Lucas van der Weide you wrote the torque could have been way lighter, I made the (misstake) I bought servomotors with 2NM torque, for all axes, for my conversion, I hope they will put enough power onto the spindles. Whats your oppinion about that?
wat you can do is add a reduction that will raise the torq the motor can make , it will slow it down some
s3.cnccookbook.com/img/MillStuff/CNC/Servos/P1011009.JPG
Hey man where did you find a spindle like this that could go below 8000 rpm
They can all go below 8krpm, but they don't have much torque left. Use a sensorless vector VFD to keep some torque.
@@berendlucasvanderweide How much torque is it possible to conserve with this method? I know you can always use a belt drive but it sure would be nice if that wasn't necessary.
@@davynolan182 What do you want do do? drilling over 5mm with optimum feed/speed in aluminium is impossible for instance. Taking it slow might help (aluminium is relative forgiving on HSS cutters) Use carbide drills at higher RPM's to get more torque. These spindles need to make some RPM to get optimum torque. I don't know about your budget, but there are permanent magnet spindles out there that are able to do rigid tapping. These permanent magnet spindles have loads of torque. It's a debate you need figure out yourself. (not meant in a harsh way) My current machine is still using a 24k RPM spindle, it suits my work. But if you want to work with steel, then a high RPM spindle might not be ideal. For aluminium, wood and plastics this is very suitable. I machined some hardened steel on my other machine, with a 4mm 4 flute carbide cutter. It's doable too. there are calculators online that determine what torque you need for a defined diameter cutter in the material of choice. Most manufacturers of spindles can hand you the torque vs rpm plots. Watercooled is more suited for lower RPM's on a sensorless vector VFD than air cooled (unless you make it forced air-cooled)
@@berendlucasvanderweide yeah it’s primarily for steel parts I need mine, I’m currently designing a belt pulley system for my cnc, I couldn’t find spindles that can be reliable at low rpms (in my budget) so I had to bite the bullet and reduce the rpms the old fashioned way. I want to be able to use face cutters so I need pretty low rpm
Can we use 300watt spindle to cut the aluminium...?? Please
Yes, that would be possible, but much depends on the strategy of milling. (depth of cut, width of cut, stability of the spindIe, rpm's it's capable of). Much depends on the operator I think, in general, a higher power spindle requires a more stable machine, enabling it to push the tool harder, deeper and with a larger width of cut.
Berend Lucas van der Weide is the servo/stepper motor important for more power when milling tool pushing at XYZ axis?
In general, you need some force to push the tool through the material. Both radial (spindle) and directional (x/y/z) The force needed for radial cutting is expressed in Nm, in other words, torque. There are calculators online that determine the amount of torque/power that is required for cutting a certain piece of material at a certain rpm/feed, DOC or WOC (Depth and Width Of Cut) (hsm advisor is one to mention, but I think that John of NYCNC also has a handy excel-sheet that calculates this)
Stepper-motor, used for lineair motion in this application, also use Nm (since they need to translate a rotational force into a lineair motion of the X, Y or Z) There are formula's to calculate that. With a 300W spindle, you can cut aluminium, with NEMA17, you can cut aluminium, using
Berend Lucas van der Weide thankyou very much for your help...
So..i can just using
It's better to make chips than dust, but yes. Cutting aluminium with minimal feed per tooth is possible without burning your tool. The only problem is that with a cutting tool as hard as carbide, the cutting edge is less sharp than with a softer material like HSS, so this might give some issues on very, very thin chipload. Sharp tools should always be your starting-point though. A 300w spindle for cutting aluminum with an 8mm mill isn't optimal, so you have to make some concessions. Need to know more details of your machine to give a proper advice. '300w spindle' tells nothing about the machine nor its intended purposes.