Muscle-focused in the Tier List 0:19 - Lats - (Single) Dumbell/Barbell Pullover 7:48 - Upper-Trap - Chest-Supported T-Bar Row His exercise for the whole back = T-Bar Row // Bent-Over Barbell Row (if you’re a minimalist)
Can’t wait to see “Sticky Ricky” Eric “Horsecock” Bugenhagen (AKA Dr. Density) turn this 16 minute video into a 3 part, 4 hour long dilemma of trying to end the video before “the wife and kid” get home, while simultaneously battling super-sonic dog farts and handing out golden tidbits of succulent wisdom
I never felt that my grip strength limited my seated rows, then just for the heck of it I tried using straps on them once and the weight I expected to do like 10-11 reps with I did for like 16. It doesn’t have to be a bottleneck to affect your results. With that said I have no idea how much the core affects the pull-up, nor am I saying the guy in the video is correct, just pointing out that the specific line of reasoning you provided is flawed
@@erlandochoa8278 You don't know what the core does on a pullup, you mention a completetely irrelevant example of a different exercise and diferent muscles, and my line of reasoning is the flawed one? You ain't never in your life failing a pullup because of your core. Your lats or grip will give up a thousand reps before your core has accumulated any relevant fatigue.
EZ bar lat pullovers are GOD tier, easier on the wrists, more manageable to use supinated grip for bigger lat stretch and wider grip because not everyone likes to get choked during sets
@@aicao5396 John Meadows has a video on them. I love them myself. Out of the ez bar, dumbbell and standing pulldown variations I like the ez bar the most. That’s just my opinion, it feels really good when I’m doing them. There even better if your gym has ez bars with plates fixed on the them for a bit more of a stretch compared to having to put bumper plates on a bar.
@@aicao5396 See how Milo does pullovers, arm straight and going as deep as physically able. Then take EZ bar like you are going to curl, lay down, push it up like reverse grip bench press, and lower as straight arm as you can without elbow issues and go all the way you physically can, don't change elbow angle at all, until you feel enormous stretch of the lats than focus on contracting the lats all the way up. Experiment with grip positions for wrist comfort and to avoid delts putting too much pressure on your neck. Ease into it, start very very light, if you shorten lat stretch it's a chest exercise, also don't plan chest days around it, it will fry your chest in any case
The stability issue with pull-ups can be addressed by making it one of the first back exercises (if not THE first done in a workout). If stability were much of a concern, we wouldn’t see streetlifters performing weighted pull-ups with 200+ lbs added to the their body weight. There’s often more friction in the eccentric of lat pull downs due to the cable system, which makes the eccentric have less tension than pull-ups (especially at the bottom) such that many people are able to feel a better stretch in the lats from pull-ups than pull downs, even if it’s theoretically the same resistance profile.
A lot of this seems to be just a "is this an isolation movement", and if not, its bad. Doing an exercise that involves the core is a benefit for me, not a downside.
Even though barbell shrugs constantly hit my wiener i still think they're far superior to dumbbell shrugs, being easier on the wrist and easier to progressively overload. I do 255 on shrugs
If you think that core activation is a limiting factor for your back on pull-ups, then everything else after that point in the video, frankly, cannot be taken seriously. Optimal ‘science based’ lifting has now been pushed to unfunny levels of pencilneckology.
@@pucek365 SEAL ROWS over barbell rows lmao, great way to work out for 10 years and have it so people cant even tell you lift when you are wearing a shirt
Not really. You have to do the movement relatively differently to actually train the biceps; you'll feel them more with neutral and chin-up vs pull-ups but they aren't providing meaningfully more hypertrophy.
Generally knowledgeable but missed the mark here, got 2 minutes into the video and heard that because of the pronated grip the pull-up will pre-stretch the biceps and lead to more long-length tension therefore more hypertrophy. With this in mind, are you implying that pronated grip for the biceps would be superior to supinated grip for general bicep work because of the lengthen bias? You get significantly more motor unit recruitment in the supinated position so I think the suggestion that pronation is superior is a little out of touch. I think the lengthen bias research going on currently is fascinating and am excited to see where the general consensus lies, but this notion that a lengthen bias exercise will always be superior (given stabilization) is a little extreme. I appreciate your content, but I think your thought process on when a lengthen bias variation of an exercise is better than a full ROM variant (I believe there are several examples, I am not anti-literature) requires little bit more nuance. Just my two cents.
I hear you. That said, I think you may be over-interpreting the EMG research.. have a read into this paper: "Longing for a Longitudinal Proxy: Acutely Measured Surface EMG Amplitude is not a Validated Predictor of Muscle Hypertrophy"
Pullus over chinups for bicep development sounds like an extrapolation. I don't think any lifter would do pronated curls over supinated when training biceps. Lengthend training and studies are great, but the application is still nuanced.
Saying pull ups are better than chin ups for the biceps because the biceps are more stretched is a WILD take, and is an example of the type of rigid adherence to "science-based" principles that people are getting tired of. I put "science-based" in quotations because I don't think this is an example of actual science, but an example of scientific principles being applied incorrectly.
@briefcasemanx Agreed, I saw Milo seemingly brushing it off in on comment assuming we're basing our assumption on EMG data. But I guess he's a bit too narrowed in on the stretched range as that's what he's helping researched.
i include reverse curls in my arm day because of this but i dont bank on that thought too much. also i feel different parts of my biceps in reverse curls like way more of the lower portion especially after a being fatigued. idk why tho
@@Shazok55 the brachioradialis cant be targetef through wrist supination or pronation unlike the biceps but can be more active in different parts of the ROM like the upper half ( although that doesnt mean the upper half is more hypertrophic for it since it doesnt have the stretch)
Farmer's walk is easily an A-tier exercise in the general sense. Agree it won't hit traps nearly as efficiently as some other trap exercises. For any particular muscle group, farmers will appear inefficient. But it works so many different muscles at once, and in sum it seems gloriously efficient.
I agree, just because a muscle is stretched doesn't make it automatically good. This is the difference between active tension in the stretch and static tension. Lengthened partials are not the same as stretch mediated hypertrophy. I believe Dr Wolf himself has explained this.
1:50 I don't know why you keep suggesting overhand pull ups are better for the biceps simply because of it's stretched position. Using that same logic the brachioradialis up should be better targeted using chin ups. I'm confident research would show great mechanical tension placed on biceps from chin ups and consequently more muscle growth then compared to pull ups and vice-versa for the brachioradialis.
@@Shazok55 most science based trainers have good takes but sometimes they say lots of BS, I'll say that the best science based trainer are Sean Nalewanyj and Jeff Nipard, Dr Mike, this guy, Jeff cavalier and some others are full of BS.
palms facing towards you gives you better bicep and lat gains. People get spun up in the axle because it seems like cheating as you can do more weight or its less functuional for climbing up over a fence or something, but more weight means more stimulus that doesnt necessarily detract from the lats, but just ads more for the bicep. the biceps are more advantaged to work and the lats get a bigger stretch at the bottom (lats aid internal rotation as they insert on the inside of the humerus so externally rotating opens them up) and are also more advantaged to work.
Just need 4 *Vertical Lat Biased Pulldown** (eg. Neutral-grip, elbows close to sides, locked scapula, single arm ideally). This biases the lower portion of the lats (illiac) and will bias the lats a lot more than your typical pullup, overhand pulldown etc. **Horizontal Lat Biased Row** (Neutral grip, elbows close to sides, locked scapula, angle from below 90 degrees). This biases the Upper portion of the lats (thoracic). **Horizontal Upper Back Row** (A movement were elbows naturally flare out around 45 degrees, full scapula retraction. T bar row is ideal for this) **Vertical Upper Back** (Full scapula Retraction, Overhand Grip, Elbow Flare 45degrees. A typical Overhand Lat pulldown is a good example or a standard pullup. This focuses on mostly upper back and also brings in some lats)
After watching your video with Dr Mike at RP channel i built a chest supported T-bar row at home and replaced barbell rows with it. Thanks for the info!
Can you explain why pronation is superior for bicep development when it comes to chin ups vs pull ups? Wouldn't the same apply to bicep curls? Should I use pronation when curling?
Surprised not to see Jefferson curls in Milo's list. Crazy stretch for the whole posterior chain and direct dynamic load for erectors, which is super-rare. Easy S tier IMO!
@@1729krish What's your reasoning behind that? Deadlift/rows: static load in shortened position for erectors, other muscle groups are the limiting factor in most cases. Jefferaon curls: dynamic load, emphasis on stretched position, erectors are the limiting factor. How could they be worse for hypertrophy?
Rack chins for lats are the best exercise for me. These were the only exercise that helped me feel the lats working as a beginner. They don't make sense, they look way easier than a pullup, your feet are supported so you lift less of your bodyweight but for some reason it all goes to your lats and really allows for a great stretch. I would recommend anyone who has trouble with their lats to try them.
1:50 dumb what he says doesn't make any sense.... the biceps are trained better doing supinated not pronated to say otherwise is like saying reverse curls are better than the regular curls for biceps and for lats anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that the lats are trained slightly better with chin-ups than pronated grip pull-ups just from a mechanical advantageous position..... also pull-ups are better for lat growth while also having less likely for injury because its a closed chain movement which is slightly better than open chained movements like pulldowns.....make a better list the horizontal pulling part I agree with but the vertical pulling you can do a little more research into the subject since you're using science
I think he's way too caught up in the benefits of training muscles in the stretched position he forgot the flexion for the arm at the elbow requires 3 muscles. Namely, the brachioradialis. If we didn't have that muscle, then I'd probably agree with him that in static grips training, pronated is best for the biceps.
I'd love a video explaining your stance on DB pullovers because from simple biomechanics they're a garbage lat exercise, the pec minor, tricep long head and serratus are what move the weight. Just because you "feel" the lats stretch as you raise your arms overhead doesn't mean they are stretched with resistance on them. I can do the exact same thing by putting my elbow up in the air and leaning on a doorway to induce the same feeling - my lats aren't working here. They are an absolutely fantastic exercise - just not for the lats.
They’re only garbage for your lats if you do them lying flat on a bench with zero thoracic extension. Do them properly ACROSS a bench; hits lower than your torso, head hanging off the edge of the bench and you’ll almost certainly feel lats
Novice lifter here, training at home with minimal equipment. I never had sore lats and have tried various pull up and chip up variations even beyong failure with forced negatives. I have played around with various db pullover techniques at times but never connected much with any of them, usually felt mostly teres and triceps, no lats or chest. I finally found a pullover variation that got my lats sore for the first time ever. I know that soreness isn't everything but I think it's worth mentioning. I lay on the floor and assume a hollow body position. In order for my core to not give out, I use an ab pad to support my upper back and head. Lower back flexed and pressed on the floor and the soles of my feet on the floor. The rom on this is limited because of the dumbbell hitting the floor but it doesn't matter because that's where the active range of the lats ends theoretically. 2 to 3 sets with slow controlled eccentric with small pause on the stretch, close or to concentric failure, low to medium weight around 15 reps, preferably as the last back exercise. I also get a nice tricep stimulus but it's never the limiting factor for me.
The lats to have leverage to do shoulder extension in a DB pullover, and will contribute to the movement. That means there will be at least some tension on the lats in the stretched position. You could argue that the lats would be activated less because of their poorer leverage compared to other muscles in this exercise (neuromechanical matching). However, I’m not sure how much this matters if you’re training close to failure - it’s not clear to me that it wouldn’t become an “all hands on deck” kind of situation, where the lats would have to work harder to move the weight with the other muscles. To the extent that neuromechanical matching matters here, it’s not clear to me that it would overpower the benefit of putting relatively more tension on the lats in a stretched position. Wolf Coaching has covered the benefits of emphasising tension in the stretched position extensively on the rest of his channel, and I’d be curious to see what he has to say about this issue.
The pullover (all variations) is one of those exercises that need a good mind muscle connection. I am personally able to execute it with focus on force generation through my lats and in this way it's effective and challenging for me. It's even important to not squeeze the DB at all and keep the elbows straight, otherwise many other muscles could intervene in moving the weight, like pecs and triceps. Very similar to bench press that most recreational lifters can't do it properly and it becomes a shoulder and triceps exercise and won't progress beyond 70kg
I want to see a study comparing dumbbell pullovers and seated cable pullovers. My strong suspicion is that the cable variation is superior, but would like to see them fight it out. It would help settle the debate of “stretch at all costs” vs. Preferencing internal leverages to a degree/optimising resistance profiles.
Excellent video Dr. Wolf as always! Thank you! Please, one question: what do you think about the Rack Chins Pull Ups? With this variation, it seems that we get better lengthening of the lats via spinal flexion. With the traditional chin-up or pull-up, we keep a certain amount of spinal extension mostly because the legs are behind us. With rack pull-ups, the legs are in front of the torso, allowing you to actually get the lats into a fully lengthened position. The two things we really want to take advantage of to maximize growth is to fully lengthen and shorten the muscles being worked. At the bottom of the rack pull-up, you can actually round the back and fully stretch the lats out.
Putting pull up and chin up in A because someone will fail from their abs? And putting pull up higher than chin up because of better bicep growth? That’s some lava hot takesss.
we need more studies of exercide selection like dips vs bench vs incline bench vs decline or pullups vs barbell row vs deadlift for back press vs raises for shoulders things like that
my shoulders dont feel very comfortable doing db pullovers, i like the stimulas it gives but should i do a wider grip for the pull over like using a ez bar?
Hi everyone! I'm looking for some insights on the resistance profile of inverted rows. How does the resistance change depending on the angle or technique used? I’ve noticed that when I do them, it feels significantly harder in the shortened position. Any advice or tips to optimize it to be more lengthened? Thanks in advance !
The more horizontal your body is, the more weight you are pulling. It’s a bit difficult to explain without sitting next to you with a piece of paper to show the math.
Very very good Video again! What do you think about to train the upper back only with rowing shrugs and not bending the arms? Is this a good option because so you train the upper back directly to failure and not other muscles?
great. Really liked the brevity and conciseness for each exercise. Doesn't feel like you're meandering. The EMG vid might be interesting to counter people who use it frequently as a way of measurement. The science based community may all be well aware but a quick and easy to view vid might help with us normies
confusion of the highest order. its like people forget real life feeling after an exersize. which one tires the bicep and activates it and gets more pump. i think the answer is easy
idk i think theres too much emphasis on lengthened biased movements. for total body connection and strength, which carries over to hypertrophy, some things are gonna be less than optimal for that resistance curve, but thats the forest, not the trees, ykwim. 24.7.29
idk i think theres too much emphasis on lengthened biased movements. for total body connection and strength, which carries over to hypertrophy, some things are gonna be less than optimal for that resistance curve, but thats the forest, not the trees, ykwim. and also stability being overrated. 24.7.29
We know things like emphasising the stretch position, pushing close to failure, frequency etc are the scientific fundamentals for hypertrophy but I would love to see a video about what the strength training equivalents are and what people should be focusing on, feels like there are not enough videos talking about it from evidence based creators.
Can I get more stretch on my lats by doing DB lat pullovers on an incline bench, or is there a limit to how far the lats will stretch when going into greater ranges of shoulder flexion?
You reduce the stretch by going incline. the weight wants to go straight down and when you lay flat on your back the moment arm is the highest when your arms are straight overhead. On an incline your arms would have to be way behind your head. good luck getting there without dislocating your shoulders. 😂
You want as much thoracic extension as you can get for DB Pullovers to hit the lats which means doing them across a flat bench with your hips lower than your torso and your head hanging off the edge of the bench is best
He performed the exercise incorrectly in this video. To really get the full stretch possible in the pull-over you should do them lying across the bench sideways since this will let you arch back much more and hit a deeper lat stretch. Natural Hypertrophy has a video explaining why this is important and how to do it.
Oh wow! Another back exercise tier list where exercises lose points for being potentially limited by spinal erector strength (you can train those directly after) while not providing any direct exercises for spinal erectors! Thank god we don't do compound exercises to hit multiple muscle groups at the same time.
@@kwerby3285 yeah except he didn't mention it. That's the issue with these optimal dudes, they'll imply the exercises exist and should be done, but they don't go out of their way to provide examples or strongly encourage it it's just thrown away as an afterthought. The result is nooblets who just do chest supported rows and avoid hip hinges like the plague and end up with paper thin backs because let's be real when was the last time you walked in the gym and saw someone isolating their erectors who wasn't a powerlifter that already deadlifts. The pencilnecks consuming these videos absolutely aren't doing any of that, especially without anyone going out of their way to tell them to.
Hey Dr. Milo, when it comes to counting volume for back do you split back muscles in upper back, lats and lower back or not? Because in lat pulldown the upper back will work too and in the upper back focus row lats will also work.
There really isn’t a difference between assisted and unassisted. I think the main reason the assisted version got S tier is due to accessibility. Not everyone can do pullups with their bodyweight so the assistance machine offers an easily accessible, scalable, and regressable version which honestly puts it beyond S tier it’s god tier
@@kwerby3285andthere is a huge difference with normal pull ups you can add WEIGHT. With the machine you CANT it’s crazy that you think it’s a god tier exercise 🤦♂️
For setting up the incline db rows do you put them on floor and grab them one arm at a time? It's always been awkward for me to get into position to start, and what angle should the bench be at?
Barbell rows perfectly executed are GOD TIER. My upper back definition really took hold when mixing bent over BB & DB rows & funnily enough, the overhead press. My traps light up when mixing these two compound movements. I know OHP primarily works shoulders, but my Lord I feel my traps absolutely destroyed after a good set of OHP after pre fatiguing through BOR
8:19, so if the stretch elicits the most muscle growth, wouldnt isometric exercises in the stretched position be optimal, at least on paper? Its steadily loading the muscle in its most primed position? I wont lie, farmers carries single handedly grew my traps more than any other trap workout ive done. Especially when i let my arms hang and REALLY stretch them. I know he says, "we dont know" and so hes not outright brushing them off
But what about Jefferson curl or back extension?( Sad to see erectors being neglected in back video. Especially because you talked about deadlift. As well as not enough credit to flexed back variations. We training all of our muscles through dynamic movement and also biasing stretch, but for some reason we dont care about erectors and say: "Isometric hold in contracted position is enough." I think that muscle deserves much more attentions especially with all deadlift love surrounding that topic.
By scorlling through this comment sections, I just realized there are so many people don't understand why some exercises might not be a S-tier due to its resistance profile.
@@Cootjeeee exactly. It just says he can't do weighted pullups, or he is content farming total noobs for his audience by telling them what they want to hear. Or both.
@@logomarkz because literally NOBODY would say that the assisted pull up machine is better than pull ups that absolutely blows my mind. And that already discredits anything that Milo says
Pullups/rows have a completely linear resistance profile, you are pulling vertically against gravity the entire time. Them being harder in the contracted position has nothing to do with a changing resistance profile, its just the leverage changing during the movement.
Never had someone who only trains Latpulldowns throwing on 40-60kg on a Pullup and go. But when you train the pullup seriusly for a couple years, the full stack on Latpulldown becomes a wheight for a nice 5-8 rep set (in our studio "120kg"). My guess: the Pullup is more difficult to do and thats why you need to push harder to a certain extend to make further progress. Adding in that you are learning a very efficent movementpattern, so your numbers and back will grow bigger and stronger everytime you use the Pullup instead of the latpulldown. BUT: "People dont want to do whats hard, they like to do whats showy"´. My Lats had grown dispropotional big from only training heavy pullups und frontlevers. Maybe in those"optimal-theories" you often dismiss that a more loadabile exercise is superior to an wired "optimal" exercise, even when you may have a better resistanceprofile, stretch, bla bla bla...
Please make a full video on neuromechanical matching and surface emg 🙏. So many I know and I don't believe db pullovers are good for lats, but I'd love to change my mind.
Saying pull ups train china more than chin ups bc of a slight increase in stretch is wild. My impression is that the biceps don't actually contribute that much in overhand movements. So they may be stretched but it doesn't matter because they aren't contracting very hard
Can the downside of the chin-up of being toughest at the top be overcome by simply reducing the range of motion? Actually, isn’t the chin-up a lengthened partial? You’re supposed to stop when the you get the “chin up” just over the bar. I don’t normally see people going much farther, touching the bar to the chest, like in the lat pulldown.
I have found that lat pulldowns/pull ups to the upper chest (or atleast the neck area) grows bigger lats than pull ups or pulldowns to the chin or above. In this scenario atleast, the contracted portion is equally (if not more) as important as the stretched portion. Also, the trick to grow your lats is to be vertical while doing pulldowns and not leaning back much
I do pull-ups, chin ups and neutral grip (really does hit the serratus muscles!) And when I'm feeling crazy I have done behind the neck pull-ups. If I can't do bodyweight, I'll do them on pull down pulley or Hammer equip. My torso is 53 inch. Of course I do all kinds of rows. Barbells, dumbells and hammer strength rows. My advice? Do all of them. The back responds with lots of variety. Just look at Joel Stubbs or Big Ronnie (No I'm not on any gear😅)
won't target and stretch upper traps a whole lot. I think standard cable facepulls are just a worse seated cable row - it's just less weight and less lats... Unless you actually DON'T want your lats to grow! Like if you cant fit in door frames or something
@@MbWapz he said traps, not upper traps, probably mid traps, but can be upper traps if you do them low to high, actually i do get sore upper/middle fibers sore from facepulls
I don't get either pump or doms in lats from dumbbell pullovers. If anything I feel it in the tricep or chest. Cable pullovers give me the best feeling of specificity in my lats.
Dr Milo, have you seen the Precor diverging lat pull-down? It starts as a close grip pull-down at the top, and ends at a wide grip at bottom (contracted position).
I would think and hope your new app coming out represents all these weight training tiers per body area being worked as showing all the S Tier movements and then listing (in order of rankings) all the A, B, etc tier movements as alternative options should the ideal movement not be available. Is that a thing with the app?
Rep's Athena cable has bands on weight stack so you CAN have more resistance in stretched position. I use Gym Pin plus bands to get between 150 and maybe 240lbs of resistance.
Lack of stabilization is not a bad thing. In fact, it is a good thing, as it trains your stabilizing muscles and core. Ring push-ups are more difficult and desirable than normal push-ups because of that lack of stability.
What about using an angled seating position in front of the weight stack to do a single-arm cable pulldown with your arm’s starting position diagonal and your bicep across your face? Wouldn’t that place the lat into a further stretch than a typical pulldown? It could even be done with two arms if you have a cable crossover machine.
8:32 DB farmers carry are Goated if lifted heavy with straps. I don't do shrugs too often yet my traps have grow so much just by doing Heavy DB Farmers carry with straps. They may not be the best for certain people but Farmer's carry is S tier or atleast A tier. I also do heavy DB walking lunges they have also grown my traps to a significant degree.
Supported T-bar is god like, but free T-bar isnt as bad if your not that strong, cuz you can put a lot of 10´s, 25´s or 35´s so you can squeeze a little more than with the 45´s.
I’ve tried pullovers in every possible way, but I can’t help feeling them in my triceps to the point where I need to stop because they hurt too much. I’ve tried flexing my arms, widening my grip, and using barbells, but nothing seems to work. Do you have any tips? Thank you!
Novice lifter here training at home with minimal equipment. I never got sore lats from pull up variations or anything else and pullovers always felt weird whenever I played around with them. I finally found a pullover variation that got my lats sore for the first time ever. I lay on the floor and assume a hollow body position. In order for my core to not give out, I use an ab pad to support my upper back and head. Lower back flexed and pressed on the floor and the soles of my feet on the ground. The rom on this is limited because of the dumbbell hitting the floor but it doesn't matter because that's where the active range of the lats ends theoretically. 2 to 3 sets with slow controlled eccentric with small pause on the stretch, close or to concentric failure, low to medium weight around 15 reps, preferably as the last back exercise. I also get a nice tricep stimulus but it's never the limiting factor for me. If I try to go much heavier I can't keep the hollow body and my triceps give out first.
Wow thanks a lot for sharing this man, I will give this a try! Regarding elbow positioning, do you keep arms completely straight or do you flare a bit?
Hope it works for you too. I personaly keep the elbows pretty straight with minimal flare. Also very slight bent on the elbows, not over extended, but you can play around with details like this and see what feels better for you.
Muscle-focused in the Tier List
0:19 - Lats
- (Single) Dumbell/Barbell Pullover
7:48 - Upper-Trap
- Chest-Supported T-Bar Row
His exercise for the whole back = T-Bar Row // Bent-Over Barbell Row (if you’re a minimalist)
Respectfully disagree with the pull up not being S tier.
Yeah what type of pull up is hard at the top? I am always struggling at the locked out portion of the lift.
Pullups are GOD tier.
@@jeremyjjbrown my man 💪🏽
Pulldowns objectively better, at least a tier
@@freddym6643Johnny one plate pencilneck take
4:50 he's got personal security while doing Pulldowns
In the words of the UA-cam GOAT: "I am a UA-cam Celery"
@WolfCoaching, what do you think about seated zercher barbell shrugs?
Can’t wait to see “Sticky Ricky” Eric “Horsecock” Bugenhagen (AKA Dr. Density) turn this 16 minute video into a 3 part, 4 hour long dilemma of trying to end the video before “the wife and kid” get home, while simultaneously battling super-sonic dog farts and handing out golden tidbits of succulent wisdom
Mr Spice blessing us with bulbous and rotund knowledge as always
I am sorry, are you by any chance referring to Mr. Spice?
Need that anabolic rotondous energy
@@avi_s0ncin0 I find that guy super annoying
@@Usiris23 pencil neck alert
My core really limits my pullups, said no one ever in the history of humanity
My core limits my pullups
@@TurdBoi666 Once you're past your first week of lifting you'll be good 👍
My issue with pullups is elbows, angled chins (mix between underhand and neutral) feels much better.
I never felt that my grip strength limited my seated rows, then just for the heck of it I tried using straps on them once and the weight I expected to do like 10-11 reps with I did for like 16. It doesn’t have to be a bottleneck to affect your results. With that said I have no idea how much the core affects the pull-up, nor am I saying the guy in the video is correct, just pointing out that the specific line of reasoning you provided is flawed
@@erlandochoa8278 You don't know what the core does on a pullup, you mention a completetely irrelevant example of a different exercise and diferent muscles, and my line of reasoning is the flawed one?
You ain't never in your life failing a pullup because of your core. Your lats or grip will give up a thousand reps before your core has accumulated any relevant fatigue.
Please make a video on the topic of neuromechanical matching and emg data!
The Solaire shirt goes hard - Praise The Sun!
Noticed the Dark Souls reference right away!
came here just for that... good catch
EZ bar lat pullovers are GOD tier, easier on the wrists, more manageable to use supinated grip for bigger lat stretch and wider grip because not everyone likes to get choked during sets
can you give me a correct technique video for this excercise, it will be perfect
@@aicao5396 John Meadows has a video on them. I love them myself. Out of the ez bar, dumbbell and standing pulldown variations I like the ez bar the most. That’s just my opinion, it feels really good when I’m doing them. There even better if your gym has ez bars with plates fixed on the them for a bit more of a stretch compared to having to put bumper plates on a bar.
@@aicao5396 See how Milo does pullovers, arm straight and going as deep as physically able. Then take EZ bar like you are going to curl, lay down, push it up like reverse grip bench press, and lower as straight arm as you can without elbow issues and go all the way you physically can, don't change elbow angle at all, until you feel enormous stretch of the lats than focus on contracting the lats all the way up. Experiment with grip positions for wrist comfort and to avoid delts putting too much pressure on your neck. Ease into it, start very very light, if you shorten lat stretch it's a chest exercise, also don't plan chest days around it, it will fry your chest in any case
My triceps start to give out first when doing pullovers. I'm only 1.5 years in to lifting.
also safer for a home gym setup if you have a rackable one and spotter arms
The stability issue with pull-ups can be addressed by making it one of the first back exercises (if not THE first done in a workout). If stability were much of a concern, we wouldn’t see streetlifters performing weighted pull-ups with 200+ lbs added to the their body weight. There’s often more friction in the eccentric of lat pull downs due to the cable system, which makes the eccentric have less tension than pull-ups (especially at the bottom) such that many people are able to feel a better stretch in the lats from pull-ups than pull downs, even if it’s theoretically the same resistance profile.
W take
As a 17 year old that can nuetral grip pullup 100 pounds, i totally agree
A lot of this seems to be just a "is this an isolation movement", and if not, its bad. Doing an exercise that involves the core is a benefit for me, not a downside.
Even though barbell shrugs constantly hit my wiener i still think they're far superior to dumbbell shrugs, being easier on the wrist and easier to progressively overload. I do 255 on shrugs
If you can get access to a trap / hex barbell, it is a game changer for this exact reason
Tuck and tape, babe.
i was just gonna say trap bar. another idea is kettlebells
Barbell shrugs also allow a wide grip, allowing greater range of motion without squishing the sides of the neck.
My weiner too tiny for this to be a problem anyway
If you think that core activation is a limiting factor for your back on pull-ups, then everything else after that point in the video, frankly, cannot be taken seriously.
Optimal ‘science based’ lifting has now been pushed to unfunny levels of pencilneckology.
Also barbell rows and pull ups not in S tier, like wtf is this.
@@pucek365 SEAL ROWS over barbell rows lmao, great way to work out for 10 years and have it so people cant even tell you lift when you are wearing a shirt
Doesnt the chin up train the biceps better? Thanks a lot for your video
Yes, he got that wrong.
Not really. You have to do the movement relatively differently to actually train the biceps; you'll feel them more with neutral and chin-up vs pull-ups but they aren't providing meaningfully more hypertrophy.
Generally knowledgeable but missed the mark here, got 2 minutes into the video and heard that because of the pronated grip the pull-up will pre-stretch the biceps and lead to more long-length tension therefore more hypertrophy. With this in mind, are you implying that pronated grip for the biceps would be superior to supinated grip for general bicep work because of the lengthen bias? You get significantly more motor unit recruitment in the supinated position so I think the suggestion that pronation is superior is a little out of touch. I think the lengthen bias research going on currently is fascinating and am excited to see where the general consensus lies, but this notion that a lengthen bias exercise will always be superior (given stabilization) is a little extreme. I appreciate your content, but I think your thought process on when a lengthen bias variation of an exercise is better than a full ROM variant (I believe there are several examples, I am not anti-literature) requires little bit more nuance. Just my two cents.
I hear you. That said, I think you may be over-interpreting the EMG research.. have a read into this paper: "Longing for a Longitudinal Proxy: Acutely Measured Surface EMG Amplitude is not a Validated Predictor of Muscle Hypertrophy"
@@DrMiloWolf Will do sir 👍🏼
@@Luis-kw1li I’d just like to say, what a well worded comment 🎓 very impressed, don’t often see that on here. 🤜🏽
Ima ask everyone ever and they all say y the bicep works harder in the chin up. Lol idk why Milo is hit or miss but whatever
Pullus over chinups for bicep development sounds like an extrapolation. I don't think any lifter would do pronated curls over supinated when training biceps. Lengthend training and studies are great, but the application is still nuanced.
Saying pull ups are better than chin ups for the biceps because the biceps are more stretched is a WILD take, and is an example of the type of rigid adherence to "science-based" principles that people are getting tired of.
I put "science-based" in quotations because I don't think this is an example of actual science, but an example of scientific principles being applied incorrectly.
@briefcasemanx Agreed, I saw Milo seemingly brushing it off in on comment assuming we're basing our assumption on EMG data. But I guess he's a bit too narrowed in on the stretched range as that's what he's helping researched.
Perhaps, but the counter factual is equally lacking any basis
1:54 by this logic, would the ideal curl use a pronated grip to train the biceps in a more lengthened position?
i include reverse curls in my arm day because of this but i dont bank on that thought too much. also i feel different parts of my biceps in reverse curls like way more of the lower portion especially after a being fatigued. idk why tho
@@AbdullahArguer you probably feel your brachialis
@@Shazok55 the brachioradialis cant be targetef through wrist supination or pronation unlike the biceps but can be more active in different parts of the ROM like the upper half ( although that doesnt mean the upper half is more hypertrophic for it since it doesnt have the stretch)
@@AbdullahArguer almost all will tell you that they feel more brachioradialis in pronation vs supination
@@Shazok55 sorry i meant brachialis bc you said brachialis first my bad
Thank you for this work! it would be nice to see a clear summary at the end of the video
Farmer's walk is easily an A-tier exercise in the general sense. Agree it won't hit traps nearly as efficiently as some other trap exercises. For any particular muscle group, farmers will appear inefficient. But it works so many different muscles at once, and in sum it seems gloriously efficient.
Uh… no
Any particular reason why your lat pulldown grip is super narrow?
cause it doesnt matter how wide or how narrow you do them, all the same effect
@@promo130 just looks like it would feel awkward
@@Sports4me7 i dont like the wide grip, narrow feels better for me
For reason of lengthening the lats more
Great tips!Have been working extremely hard to get some width in my back.These tips are definitely going to up my back workout game!🙌🏻🔥🔥
Surely the biceps being recruited much more in a chin up would make more difference than them being stretched with pullups
I doubt it. I get tons of bicep and brachialis on pronated and neutral pullups.
It is not being recruited more, you only feel it more cause of the supination
@@gottired It's definitely being recruited more it's in a mechanically advantageous position.
I agree, just because a muscle is stretched doesn't make it automatically good. This is the difference between active tension in the stretch and static tension.
Lengthened partials are not the same as stretch mediated hypertrophy. I believe Dr Wolf himself has explained this.
@@ProphetFear that take immediately made me think of you
1:50 I don't know why you keep suggesting overhand pull ups are better for the biceps simply because of it's stretched position.
Using that same logic the brachioradialis up should be better targeted using chin ups.
I'm confident research would show great mechanical tension placed on biceps from chin ups and consequently more muscle growth then compared to pull ups and vice-versa for the brachioradialis.
takes like this make me doubt about the value of those phds the "science based" fitness youtubers have
@@Shazok55 most science based trainers have good takes but sometimes they say lots of BS, I'll say that the best science based trainer are Sean Nalewanyj and Jeff Nipard, Dr Mike, this guy, Jeff cavalier and some others are full of BS.
palms facing towards you gives you better bicep and lat gains. People get spun up in the axle because it seems like cheating as you can do more weight or its less functuional for climbing up over a fence or something, but more weight means more stimulus that doesnt necessarily detract from the lats, but just ads more for the bicep. the biceps are more advantaged to work and the lats get a bigger stretch at the bottom (lats aid internal rotation as they insert on the inside of the humerus so externally rotating opens them up) and are also more advantaged to work.
@@benitobenitobenito so what about pulldowns? palms facing towards you is also better?
@@kobyz21 I think so yeah, if the focus is lats and arms
Just need 4
*Vertical Lat Biased Pulldown** (eg. Neutral-grip, elbows close to sides, locked scapula, single arm ideally). This biases the lower portion of the lats (illiac) and will bias the lats a lot more than your typical pullup, overhand pulldown etc.
**Horizontal Lat Biased Row** (Neutral grip, elbows close to sides, locked scapula, angle from below 90 degrees). This biases the Upper portion of the lats (thoracic).
**Horizontal Upper Back Row** (A movement were elbows naturally flare out around 45 degrees, full scapula retraction. T bar row is ideal for this)
**Vertical Upper Back** (Full scapula Retraction, Overhand Grip, Elbow Flare 45degrees. A typical Overhand Lat pulldown is a good example or a standard pullup. This focuses on mostly upper back and also brings in some lats)
After watching your video with Dr Mike at RP channel i built a chest supported T-bar row at home and replaced barbell rows with it. Thanks for the info!
Bentover rows just hit right for me. Would you class a facepull as a rear delt or upper back exercise ?
Can you explain why pronation is superior for bicep development when it comes to chin ups vs pull ups? Wouldn't the same apply to bicep curls? Should I use pronation when curling?
Surprised not to see Jefferson curls in Milo's list. Crazy stretch for the whole posterior chain and direct dynamic load for erectors, which is super-rare. Easy S tier IMO!
Its a mobility exercise. Not a hypertrophy one. You will get way better growth for the erectors in deadlifts, rows, back extensions.
@@1729krish What's your reasoning behind that?
Deadlift/rows: static load in shortened position for erectors, other muscle groups are the limiting factor in most cases.
Jefferaon curls: dynamic load, emphasis on stretched position, erectors are the limiting factor.
How could they be worse for hypertrophy?
Rack chins for lats are the best exercise for me. These were the only exercise that helped me feel the lats working as a beginner. They don't make sense, they look way easier than a pullup, your feet are supported so you lift less of your bodyweight but for some reason it all goes to your lats and really allows for a great stretch.
I would recommend anyone who has trouble with their lats to try them.
what is a rack chin i can’t even imagine this
1:50 dumb what he says doesn't make any sense.... the biceps are trained better doing supinated not pronated to say otherwise is like saying reverse curls are better than the regular curls for biceps and for lats anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that the lats are trained slightly better with chin-ups than pronated grip pull-ups just from a mechanical advantageous position..... also pull-ups are better for lat growth while also having less likely for injury because its a closed chain movement which is slightly better than open chained movements like pulldowns.....make a better list the horizontal pulling part I agree with but the vertical pulling you can do a little more research into the subject since you're using science
*you're *
I think he's way too caught up in the benefits of training muscles in the stretched position he forgot the flexion for the arm at the elbow requires 3 muscles.
Namely, the brachioradialis. If we didn't have that muscle, then I'd probably agree with him that in static grips training, pronated is best for the biceps.
@@slee2695 thanks
@@PingTPunk-rq9us pronated or supinated?
I'd love a video explaining your stance on DB pullovers because from simple biomechanics they're a garbage lat exercise, the pec minor, tricep long head and serratus are what move the weight. Just because you "feel" the lats stretch as you raise your arms overhead doesn't mean they are stretched with resistance on them. I can do the exact same thing by putting my elbow up in the air and leaning on a doorway to induce the same feeling - my lats aren't working here. They are an absolutely fantastic exercise - just not for the lats.
They’re only garbage for your lats if you do them lying flat on a bench with zero thoracic extension. Do them properly ACROSS a bench; hits lower than your torso, head hanging off the edge of the bench and you’ll almost certainly feel lats
Novice lifter here, training at home with minimal equipment. I never had sore lats and have tried various pull up and chip up variations even beyong failure with forced negatives. I have played around with various db pullover techniques at times but never connected much with any of them, usually felt mostly teres and triceps, no lats or chest. I finally found a pullover variation that got my lats sore for the first time ever. I know that soreness isn't everything but I think it's worth mentioning. I lay on the floor and assume a hollow body position. In order for my core to not give out, I use an ab pad to support my upper back and head. Lower back flexed and pressed on the floor and the soles of my feet on the floor. The rom on this is limited because of the dumbbell hitting the floor but it doesn't matter because that's where the active range of the lats ends theoretically. 2 to 3 sets with slow controlled eccentric with small pause on the stretch, close or to concentric failure, low to medium weight around 15 reps, preferably as the last back exercise. I also get a nice tricep stimulus but it's never the limiting factor for me.
The lats to have leverage to do shoulder extension in a DB pullover, and will contribute to the movement. That means there will be at least some tension on the lats in the stretched position.
You could argue that the lats would be activated less because of their poorer leverage compared to other muscles in this exercise (neuromechanical matching). However, I’m not sure how much this matters if you’re training close to failure - it’s not clear to me that it wouldn’t become an “all hands on deck” kind of situation, where the lats would have to work harder to move the weight with the other muscles.
To the extent that neuromechanical matching matters here, it’s not clear to me that it would overpower the benefit of putting relatively more tension on the lats in a stretched position. Wolf Coaching has covered the benefits of emphasising tension in the stretched position extensively on the rest of his channel, and I’d be curious to see what he has to say about this issue.
The pullover (all variations) is one of those exercises that need a good mind muscle connection. I am personally able to execute it with focus on force generation through my lats and in this way it's effective and challenging for me. It's even important to not squeeze the DB at all and keep the elbows straight, otherwise many other muscles could intervene in moving the weight, like pecs and triceps. Very similar to bench press that most recreational lifters can't do it properly and it becomes a shoulder and triceps exercise and won't progress beyond 70kg
Gotta leave a comment to say that I really like how calm and neutral Milo was in the vid. I really liked this tierlist
This is the S tier content i been looking for. Ill wait for the Boog to inform us that bent over rows are the best lat workout.
I want to see a study comparing dumbbell pullovers and seated cable pullovers. My strong suspicion is that the cable variation is superior, but would like to see them fight it out.
It would help settle the debate of “stretch at all costs” vs. Preferencing internal leverages to a degree/optimising resistance profiles.
Excellent video Dr. Wolf as always! Thank you! Please, one question: what do you think about the Rack Chins Pull Ups?
With this variation, it seems that we get better lengthening of the lats via spinal flexion. With the traditional chin-up or pull-up, we keep a certain amount of spinal extension mostly because the legs are behind us. With rack pull-ups, the legs are in front of the torso, allowing you to actually get the lats into a fully lengthened position. The two things we really want to take advantage of to maximize growth is to fully lengthen and shorten the muscles being worked. At the bottom of the rack pull-up, you can actually round the back and fully stretch the lats out.
Putting pull up and chin up in A because someone will fail from their abs? And putting pull up higher than chin up because of better bicep growth? That’s some lava hot takesss.
It’s just basic reasoning.
when is chest ranking coming out? Also what are your thoughts on row variations like high rows or low rows?
we need more studies of exercide selection
like dips vs bench vs incline bench vs decline
or pullups vs barbell row vs deadlift for back
press vs raises for shoulders
things like that
Can’t wait for Eric to react to this
So you can fap?
If you can't do pullups that's not pullups problem, that's your problem.
Exactly and if you are not strong enough use the help of resistance bands
Facts
my shoulders dont feel very comfortable doing db pullovers, i like the stimulas it gives but should i do a wider grip for the pull over like using a ez bar?
This is an incredible video.
I hope there will be a next one about chest ✌️
Hi everyone! I'm looking for some insights on the resistance profile of inverted rows. How does the resistance change depending on the angle or technique used? I’ve noticed that when I do them, it feels significantly harder in the shortened position. Any advice or tips to optimize it to be more lengthened? Thanks in advance !
The more horizontal your body is, the more weight you are pulling.
It’s a bit difficult to explain without sitting next to you with a piece of paper to show the math.
If you want to optimize it to be more lengthened bias, elevate your feet a little bit
hey Dr Wolf, could you please make a youtube shorts on good technique for the DB seatead shrug? how should our scapula be while performing the shrug?
Please do make a whole video on the dumbell pullover and the emg takes
Very very good Video again! What do you think about to train the upper back only with rowing shrugs and not bending the arms? Is this a good option because so you train the upper back directly to failure and not other muscles?
great. Really liked the brevity and conciseness for each exercise. Doesn't feel like you're meandering. The EMG vid might be interesting to counter people who use it frequently as a way of measurement. The science based community may all be well aware but a quick and easy to view vid might help with us normies
Meadows rows? Snatch grip DLs?
Bro is saying pronation better trains the biceps while also saying supinated curls are better than pronated curls for the biceps
confusion of the highest order. its like people forget real life feeling after an exersize. which one tires the bicep and activates it and gets more pump. i think the answer is easy
@@goodebening6564supination?
It's not the same movement at the elbow
idk i think theres too much emphasis on lengthened biased movements. for total body connection and strength, which carries over to hypertrophy, some things are gonna be less than optimal for that resistance curve, but thats the forest, not the trees, ykwim.
24.7.29
Why did you private the shoulder exercise tier list? I was just about to watch that!
Since starting my weight lifting journey, I've really fallen in love with heavy row variants. Chest supported rows are my favorite.
idk i think theres too much emphasis on lengthened biased movements. for total body connection and strength, which carries over to hypertrophy, some things are gonna be less than optimal for that resistance curve, but thats the forest, not the trees, ykwim. and also stability being overrated.
24.7.29
We know things like emphasising the stretch position, pushing close to failure, frequency etc are the scientific fundamentals for hypertrophy but I would love to see a video about what the strength training equivalents are and what people should be focusing on, feels like there are not enough videos talking about it from evidence based creators.
Can I get more stretch on my lats by doing DB lat pullovers on an incline bench, or is there a limit to how far the lats will stretch when going into greater ranges of shoulder flexion?
If you feel it in your lats we’ll do it. If not don’t do em for growth
Depends if your bench has the clearance to be able to do a pullover whilst inclined.
You reduce the stretch by going incline. the weight wants to go straight down and when you lay flat on your back the moment arm is the highest when your arms are straight overhead. On an incline your arms would have to be way behind your head. good luck getting there without dislocating your shoulders. 😂
You want as much thoracic extension as you can get for DB Pullovers to hit the lats which means doing them across a flat bench with your hips lower than your torso and your head hanging off the edge of the bench is best
He performed the exercise incorrectly in this video. To really get the full stretch possible in the pull-over you should do them lying across the bench sideways since this will let you arch back much more and hit a deeper lat stretch. Natural Hypertrophy has a video explaining why this is important and how to do it.
Thank you as always sir, can we get one of these for legs
Oh wow! Another back exercise tier list where exercises lose points for being potentially limited by spinal erector strength (you can train those directly after) while not providing any direct exercises for spinal erectors! Thank god we don't do compound exercises to hit multiple muscle groups at the same time.
Deficit Jefferson Curl has entered the chat
@@kwerby3285 yeah except he didn't mention it. That's the issue with these optimal dudes, they'll imply the exercises exist and should be done, but they don't go out of their way to provide examples or strongly encourage it it's just thrown away as an afterthought. The result is nooblets who just do chest supported rows and avoid hip hinges like the plague and end up with paper thin backs because let's be real when was the last time you walked in the gym and saw someone isolating their erectors who wasn't a powerlifter that already deadlifts. The pencilnecks consuming these videos absolutely aren't doing any of that, especially without anyone going out of their way to tell them to.
Hey Dr. Milo, when it comes to counting volume for back do you split back muscles in upper back, lats and lower back or not? Because in lat pulldown the upper back will work too and in the upper back focus row lats will also work.
What exercises would you put for the Erectors?
Also are there any upper back isolation exercises like Kelso Shrugs?
what if im too strong for the pullup mashine? surely doing normal pullups are better in that case
There really isn’t a difference between assisted and unassisted.
I think the main reason the assisted version got S tier is due to accessibility. Not everyone can do pullups with their bodyweight so the assistance machine offers an easily accessible, scalable, and regressable version which honestly puts it beyond S tier it’s god tier
Yes, and going weighted is even better
@@kwerby3285nobody got a big back from the assisted pull up machine. It’s literally a D tier exercise 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
@@kwerby3285andthere is a huge difference with normal pull ups you can add WEIGHT. With the machine you CANT it’s crazy that you think it’s a god tier exercise 🤦♂️
For setting up the incline db rows do you put them on floor and grab them one arm at a time? It's always been awkward for me to get into position to start, and what angle should the bench be at?
Set up flat bench infront of incline bench and put dumbbell on them and lift easy
Barbell rows perfectly executed are GOD TIER. My upper back definition really took hold when mixing bent over BB & DB rows & funnily enough, the overhead press. My traps light up when mixing these two compound movements. I know OHP primarily works shoulders, but my Lord I feel my traps absolutely destroyed after a good set of OHP after pre fatiguing through BOR
They sell special t-bar attachments that allow the handles to line up with plates, thus eliminating the cons of the exercise.
Busted a gut laughing at the dead hang, follow up with the gangnam style dance through the gym for extra street cred and gainz
8:19, so if the stretch elicits the most muscle growth, wouldnt isometric exercises in the stretched position be optimal, at least on paper? Its steadily loading the muscle in its most primed position? I wont lie, farmers carries single handedly grew my traps more than any other trap workout ive done. Especially when i let my arms hang and REALLY stretch them. I know he says, "we dont know" and so hes not outright brushing them off
But what about Jefferson curl or back extension?( Sad to see erectors being neglected in back video. Especially because you talked about deadlift. As well as not enough credit to flexed back variations. We training all of our muscles through dynamic movement and also biasing stretch, but for some reason we dont care about erectors and say: "Isometric hold in contracted position is enough." I think that muscle deserves much more attentions especially with all deadlift love surrounding that topic.
Agree 100%, Jefferson curls are goated
By scorlling through this comment sections, I just realized there are so many people don't understand why some exercises might not be a S-tier due to its resistance profile.
Pullups are objectively an s-tier back exercise. Yeah, they aren’t easy, but that’s precisely why they’re s-tier.
Assisted pull up machine and pull downs above normal pull ups is absolutely diabolical
@@Cootjeeee exactly. It just says he can't do weighted pullups, or he is content farming total noobs for his audience by telling them what they want to hear. Or both.
@@logomarkz I would say both, he is especially targeting a beginner audience
@@logomarkz because literally NOBODY would say that the assisted pull up machine is better than pull ups that absolutely blows my mind. And that already discredits anything that Milo says
@@Cootjeeee exactly. That machine becomes obsolete the moment you can do 1 pullup.
@@logomarkzI already didn’t like Milo’s channel but this says everything about his channel
Pullups/rows have a completely linear resistance profile, you are pulling vertically against gravity the entire time. Them being harder in the contracted position has nothing to do with a changing resistance profile, its just the leverage changing during the movement.
Good content, man.
Never had someone who only trains Latpulldowns throwing on 40-60kg on a Pullup and go. But when you train the pullup seriusly for a couple years, the full stack on Latpulldown becomes a wheight for a nice 5-8 rep set (in our studio "120kg").
My guess: the Pullup is more difficult to do and thats why you need to push harder to a certain extend to make further progress. Adding in that you are learning a very efficent movementpattern, so your numbers and back will grow bigger and stronger everytime you use the Pullup instead of the latpulldown.
BUT: "People dont want to do whats hard, they like to do whats showy"´.
My Lats had grown dispropotional big from only training heavy pullups und frontlevers. Maybe in those"optimal-theories" you often dismiss that a more loadabile exercise is superior to an wired "optimal" exercise, even when you may have a better resistanceprofile, stretch, bla bla bla...
Please make a full video on neuromechanical matching and surface emg 🙏. So many I know and I don't believe db pullovers are good for lats, but I'd love to change my mind.
What about ez bar Pullovers? Is the dumbell version just mutch more optimal?
dr. wolf info is s tier per usual
Dr. Density incoming
DB Pullover Lat isolation exercize?? Long Head, Serratus, even a bit of abs and intercostal muscles?
Saying pull ups train china more than chin ups bc of a slight increase in stretch is wild. My impression is that the biceps don't actually contribute that much in overhand movements. So they may be stretched but it doesn't matter because they aren't contracting very hard
Can the downside of the chin-up of being toughest at the top be overcome by simply reducing the range of motion? Actually, isn’t the chin-up a lengthened partial? You’re supposed to stop when the you get the “chin up” just over the bar. I don’t normally see people going much farther, touching the bar to the chest, like in the lat pulldown.
I have found that lat pulldowns/pull ups to the upper chest (or atleast the neck area) grows bigger lats than pull ups or pulldowns to the chin or above. In this scenario atleast, the contracted portion is equally (if not more) as important as the stretched portion. Also, the trick to grow your lats is to be vertical while doing pulldowns and not leaning back much
I do pull-ups, chin ups and neutral grip (really does hit the serratus muscles!)
And when I'm feeling crazy I have done behind the neck pull-ups. If I can't do bodyweight, I'll do them on pull down pulley or Hammer equip.
My torso is 53 inch. Of course I do all kinds of rows. Barbells, dumbells and hammer strength rows.
My advice?
Do all of them. The back responds with lots of variety. Just look at Joel Stubbs or Big Ronnie (No I'm not on any gear😅)
Great video! Would love to see your thoughts on Iso lso High Lateral Rows? ✊🏾
what about facepull? i know it hit the rare delt, but also some traps
worthless exercise
won't target and stretch upper traps a whole lot.
I think standard cable facepulls are just a worse seated cable row - it's just less weight and less lats... Unless you actually DON'T want your lats to grow! Like if you cant fit in door frames or something
@@MbWapz he said traps, not upper traps, probably mid traps, but can be upper traps if you do them low to high, actually i do get sore upper/middle fibers sore from facepulls
I always get the best stretch with db pullovers. I cannot seem to get that stretch with cables. I’m happy to see the Dbpo rated better than cable po.
I havent been doing these for long but I think it's done a lot for my back.
Bent over smith rows (preferrably with depth) for 8+ reps, 4 sets
I don't get either pump or doms in lats from dumbbell pullovers. If anything I feel it in the tricep or chest. Cable pullovers give me the best feeling of specificity in my lats.
Which handle?
Weighted dead hang pull-up are S tier for sure.
What do you think about meadows rows for upper back focus as an exercise?
Dr Milo, have you seen the Precor diverging lat pull-down? It starts as a close grip pull-down at the top, and ends at a wide grip at bottom (contracted position).
What about the pressure on your spine holding all that weight while sitting?
So far did a row with less tension at the bottom and bad technique. Gonna try to emphasize the stretch on the t-bar row from now on.
HOLY BUCKETS, YOU ALREADY KNOW ITS HAPPENING 🐴🐔
Mr. Roider himself..the spandex wearing, wrestling with sweaty men in speedos, the ghey 80s mustache
Sticky Ricky got a little steroid dicky
I would think and hope your new app coming out represents all these weight training tiers per body area being worked as showing all the S Tier movements and then listing (in order of rankings) all the A, B, etc tier movements as alternative options should the ideal movement not be available. Is that a thing with the app?
Curious what you think of Kelso shrugs?
Rep's Athena cable has bands on weight stack so you CAN have more resistance in stretched position. I use Gym Pin plus bands to get between 150 and maybe 240lbs of resistance.
In my opinion and with my knowledge of anatomy chin-up is the most difficult in the middle position, where the moment of force / lever is the highest.
Assisted pull-ups are d tier for us taller folks. No stretch.
Lack of stabilization is not a bad thing. In fact, it is a good thing, as it trains your stabilizing muscles and core. Ring push-ups are more difficult and desirable than normal push-ups because of that lack of stability.
What about using an angled seating position in front of the weight stack to do a single-arm cable pulldown with your arm’s starting position diagonal and your bicep across your face? Wouldn’t that place the lat into a further stretch than a typical pulldown? It could even be done with two arms if you have a cable crossover machine.
7:05 you should make that video , people still think DB pullover is all chest no lats.
8:32 DB farmers carry are Goated if lifted heavy with straps. I don't do shrugs too often yet my traps have grow so much just by doing Heavy DB Farmers carry with straps. They may not be the best for certain people but Farmer's carry is S tier or atleast A tier. I also do heavy DB walking lunges they have also grown my traps to a significant degree.
PRAISE THE BACK
Supported T-bar is god like, but free T-bar isnt as bad if your not that strong, cuz you can put a lot of 10´s, 25´s or 35´s so you can squeeze a little more than with the 45´s.
I’ve tried pullovers in every possible way, but I can’t help feeling them in my triceps to the point where I need to stop because they hurt too much. I’ve tried flexing my arms, widening my grip, and using barbells, but nothing seems to work. Do you have any tips?
Thank you!
Novice lifter here training at home with minimal equipment. I never got sore lats from pull up variations or anything else and pullovers always felt weird whenever I played around with them. I finally found a pullover variation that got my lats sore for the first time ever. I lay on the floor and assume a hollow body position. In order for my core to not give out, I use an ab pad to support my upper back and head. Lower back flexed and pressed on the floor and the soles of my feet on the ground. The rom on this is limited because of the dumbbell hitting the floor but it doesn't matter because that's where the active range of the lats ends theoretically. 2 to 3 sets with slow controlled eccentric with small pause on the stretch, close or to concentric failure, low to medium weight around 15 reps, preferably as the last back exercise. I also get a nice tricep stimulus but it's never the limiting factor for me. If I try to go much heavier I can't keep the hollow body and my triceps give out first.
Wow thanks a lot for sharing this man, I will give this a try!
Regarding elbow positioning, do you keep arms completely straight or do you flare a bit?
Hope it works for you too. I personaly keep the elbows pretty straight with minimal flare. Also very slight bent on the elbows, not over extended, but you can play around with details like this and see what feels better for you.
Thanks for the heads up