Ok, I finally got to listen to this (thanks Emi and Owen for the link) And, after listening to Welv's and specially Emi's perspective, the two biggest book simps, I finally understood the Canto... I'm not gonna post a Bible on it, because I'm a drop of water in the ocean, but what I will say is a bit of why I think I finally got it... I mastered the ability of perspective analysis and clear expectations over time, I'm kinda obsessed with seeing things from other's PoV, but Canto 6... It was up until now very murky in my mind, and the main fault lied within WH, the book (because I'm also a helpless bookworm who quite literally devours literature left and right)... As much as everyone's role aligned with the Canto, it felt off for various reasons... There were many lost pieces hidden out of my reach, and nobody I know is both into PM and books (I, funnily enough, know more people that's into PM than into books, and I don't know a lot of people) so I couldn't for the love of Carmen sit and compare ideas with someone... Hearing what you lot had to say about Canto 6 actually provided me with most of the pieces I needed to finally complete the puzzle... The ticking clock in the flashback, Cathy's demeanor, Revenge vs Remember, Nelly's betrayal, Isabella Linton.... Just a bunch of things I believe I finally understand in full And sorry if anyone wanted to read that, but look at how long the comment already is and I basically said nothing of value XD Btw, if I had to give my favorite moment and my least favorite one from the Canto Best for me would be Meursault having an opinion not based on cold hard facts, and worst definitely the gratuitous shouting of out-of-context book lines at the end of Erlkönig's fight I HATE HOW THEY WASTED ONE OF THE COLDEST, MOST TRAGICALLY SPITEFUL LINE OF THE BOOK, THE TITULAR HEARTBREAKING, WITH RANDOM VERBAL DIARRHEA and nobody can convince me they did it well, by far one of the lowest points of the game for me, and saying with half of Canto 2 twisting a knife on my back And with that, I also feel obligated to say I loved Canto 6 but I see where Emi is coming from Adieu
Im only like halfway watching the stream but consider this a shower thought. Two things stick to me so far cathy's description in the book (part of her that mistreats heath due it being a release to her) and her limbus version being intrested in inventing. Now i think a way to put a spin in Cathy's character to be slightly more book accurate is to make her esentially talentless in the field. Her marriage to Linton becomes more a personal goal rather then helping heath. Linton still is cucked but so is heath since he doesn't have the means to support Cathy's interest. We can still put in the whole "pure love" part in but her interests just puts a lot more priority. I like to preface that this is very much a shower thought with barely any basis.
i think you guys missed an important factor about why Heathcliff scratched over his bat by focusing to much on "remember". Because it originally said "Revenge", but after this Canto, there just is no Revenge left, everyone except Nelly is dead. We also already dealt with Nelly; Heathcliff decided not to kill her, so one of his two main motivations in life is gone and he now focuses on the remaining one. Also, could i suggest a UA-camr for you to invite? Frapollo94 is mainly known for his Fear&Hunger content, but he also streamed all the PM Games and is a huge fan, i would absolutely love to see him discuss PM.
I really like that PM made a love story here Part 3 completely threw off my expectations and I was like This is so cringe and corny that it somehow wraps back to being kino from being so honest, raw and sincere Catherine coming up with almost the exact same plan as Heath simultaneously is incredibly funny and sweet in my eyes That portrayal of love really made me feel that canto 6 was peak I am completely fine decoupling the book from the Limbus story I dont see it as an adaptation but one that draws very simple inspiration and brushstrokes from it and completely reimagines its themes It takes the original source material and adds a hodgepodge of colors and turns it into a Jackson Pollock painting with some of the original showing through. I can appreciate it and I really like it
I think this canto’s final fight could’ve benefited by having more flashbacks about the relationships between each character. What we got doesn’t bad but it feels like it was missing something. Especially Cathy’s flaws and the extent of her relationship with young Heathcliff should’ve been fleshing out more. Overall, part 2 and 3 of this canto does feel like a bundle of hype moment wrapped up together rather than a coherence story for me. And I agreed that it should’ve been longer, especially part 3. So after a careful consideration, my humble opinion does stand that it does not top Canto 4 (Which is still my favorite canto despite some pacing issues). It’s still good, just not peak limbus for me.
I might as well chime in and say what I consider the pros and cons of each part. Fair warning, I haven't read the book. Part 1: Pros: - SQUIRREL ESQUIREEEEEE : ) - I love the way that all the characters are done here: Heathcliff, Linton, Nelly, Hindley, Linton, and ESPECIALLY Josephine. - I like the tid bit of butlers and accountants being badass fixers - I liked the haunted vibe a lot, along with Wuthering Heights being above the goddamb river and all the implications that brings. Cons: - SQUIRREL ESQUIRE : ( - Linton's lie about the letters. - Quite frankly, I wish we got more Josephine screen time. - There is so much set up here that isn't followed up. The weather as defense mechanism, the manor being above the river, the ghosts... - More Cathy Schizzo pls General: Funnily enough this is the one that left me the most lukewarm. I did like the ambience and setting, but it hadn't... gripped me, so to speak. Part 2: Pros: - HEATHCLIFF DISTORTION - I absolutely adored the Matt reveal. - The ambivalence of Asseah. Cons: - Where did the Oufi go? - The distortion thing got resolved so quickly... like goddammit. - (I admit, these might be criticisms of part 3, rather than 2, but oh well.) General: When this dropped and I finished watching it, I was counting the damn days, hours, minutes, seconds... I very much enjoyed it tbh! Borderline peak! Part 3: Pros: - V E R G I L I U S. And I think it will be extremely interesting to see the consequences of this, especially since I am pretty sure that in the book he couldn't ascend due to his sins. - DANTE POWERS. AYIN? TREE OF LIGHT. YES. YES. YES. I also adore what this scene means for both Dante, Heathcliff and the rest of the sinners. It goes to show how much he cares, and Heathcliff very much sees it. - I adore that Erlking and All Cathy can't even fight together. Even at that point they can't intersect. Cons: - Again, the distortion thing. - I've seen some people defend it, but I can't say I dig the ending of killing every cathy in all timelines. Perhaps out of lack of understanding. But I don't dig it. - No lighting explanation, nor river. General: I feel like this canto is a lot of this Canto was of Subverting expectations. The funeral instead of Party, the bittersweet ending instead of a good ending, and I have the personal opinion that Erlking and All Cath are actually the Heathcliff and Catherine of the novel. Furthermore, many of the meanings of the Canto are blurry, so let me add my 2 cents: I feel like this canto is: 1. Misplaced sense of worth. Hindley on his father, Heathcliff on Catherine, Catherine on Heathcliff, Linton on Cathy, Nelly on both Cathy and Heathcliff's union or lack there of... This is quite honestly to me the strongest theme. 2. When bettering oneself comes crashing down, when hope is shattered. 3. Miscommunication, as mentioned Theories: - I still hold golden boughs are fragments of Carmen's nervous system, charged by the light. - Heathcliff is gonna come crashing down so hard at some point. About the video: Also Imma say, Emi wanted Catherine to be a bitch so bad, the fact that she might have very well spent 40-50 minutes asking, nay, demanding for any crumbles of malice from Catherine is slightly annoying but kinda sad that it stopped her from enjoying the canto. (Having said that, I admire and slightly envy her self restraint with not taking the entire screentime) On the other side, I feel some people really couldn't speak that much... pity, but oh well.
I'm definitely taking your criticism re: me taking a lot of talking time into account! I definitely had a lot to say, but you're correct in pointing out that I should have let my fellow podcasters have a bit more time (though- to be fair, I did do my best to take the time to prompt them here and there ;w; I just need to do it more, next time!) With that said, I still stand by the points I brought up
@@citroncynique Nah, I absolutely get the feeling of having too much to say and needing to say it all chained for coherence, and as much as I say that, you did bring some really interesting points so ehhh it balances out. And it was very noticeable that you were very much trying to contain yourself, so credit where credit is definitely deserved. Regardless, thank you for offering your perspective which was quite different by virtue of having read the book which changed your "point of standing" and your expectations going into the canto. I think. I still haven't finished the video💀
I feel like Emi there really is missing the point of the last reality that we see at the end of the fight. That calm peaceful reality in which people are happy. Their happiness was possible and he was wrong for focusing so much on the negative. Funnily enough, much like Emi is doing.
... i dont get what you're saying here? my point was that PM never should have inserted that calm peaceful reality in the first place. Wuthering Heights never was about how characters need to be happy, it's about the cycle of abuse. The negativity is a part of WH and removing it defeats the point of writing something based on WH in the first place. I'm not gonna reiterate the points I've said over and over on this stream. If you don't get it, that's fine! But WH isn't a love story and never was one, and making it one does a disservice to both Heathcliff and Catherine as individual characters.
@@citroncynique Yes I know its not a love story, its a gothic novel. I understand where you're coming from I just don't agree with you or more I have a different interpretation. Now I will apologize that my wording is rather harsh. I was finding myself frustrated with you during from listening to the stream. While you did come with some good points I feel like you didn't let anybody else get a good word in about anything else unless they agreed with you. That distaste for that sort of behavior I have manifested in my comment and for that I again apologize for that. I'm going to better gather my thoughts and rewrite what I had written to better delivery my point without the vitriol added in. (I really hope I remember to in the morning)
@@citroncynique Yeah, I don’t really like that kind of outlook, it was just way too pessimistic. Mainly because the point of that scene is not that the characters need to be happy, but to show hope. If it is about the circle of negativity and abuse, then we got that with Heathcliff and Cathy from the mirror world already. Those are the people that only focus on tragedy, unable to move on from the circle of toxicity they inflicted upon themselves and each other, unable to see the other side of the possibilities, that thing can change for the better if they are willing to face themselves and be better. But it was easier for them to think that all their tale would end in tragedy, that’s why they would never change or face themselves like Limbus Heathcliff or even Cathy. Sure, I do find this canto lacking in some aspect and certain theme should be explored more. But I find it unfair to criticize how the theme doesn’t fit one to one with the book because of course it wouldn’t . PM stories, despite how dark and depressing, are always about finding hope and breaking the circle of negativity, so of course the story is going to reflect that more. Cause this isn’t meant to be one to one adaptation of Wuthering heights anyway, and the sinner Heathcliff of limbus company wasn’t meant to be the exact same copy of his book counterpart either. (That’s Erkling) Look I’m sorry if I come off too strong, but I don’t think some of your expectations are realistic for the story and it was way too pessimistic for my liking. I get where you coming from (Trust me, I really did), but I just don’t like the mindset behind it.
@@s.m.g.2391 I'm going to reiterate some points as clearly as possibly can: 1/ I primarily take issue with the fact that one of the central figures of Wuthering Heights (the novel) was turned into a manic pixie dead girlfriend for what amounts to a cheap pull at the audience's heartstrings over a romance that never was. Female characters in classic literature like Catherine Earnshaw are rarely allowed to be read and considered as themselves, warts and all, for their flaws rather than in spite of them. I want to make this clear: me wishing that Cathy had been horrible doesn't mean that I hate her as a character; quite the opposite. It was /because/ of her flaws, her hysteria, her self-serving personality that she was such a compelling character in the source novel. Seeing her flattened into this sad girl who blames /herself/ for making Heathcliff miserable (book Cathy would NEVER take the blame for anything, it's one of her core traits) just... doesn't sit right with me. Even more so when parts 1 and 2 of Canto 6 felt like they were building up to something a little more heavy. Cathy being propped up as an ingenious, manipulative woman who threw herself body and soul into a horrifying experiment and dragging down hundreds(?) of innocent T-Corp bystanders with her felt /very/ in character with regards to her book counterpart: a selfish woman who cared little who suffered as long as she got her way. Part 3 flipping that on its head to reveal that she was 'just' a sad, sad girl who was manipulated into agreeing to working with N Corp takes both agency and power away from her. Making her weaker, more gentle, more empathetic, and softer so that we can have this bittersweet, grandiosely romantic narrative climax where we as the audience are supposed to believe that she and Heathcliff are star crossed lovers cheapens both Cathy and Heathcliff's characterisations. I don't think it's unrealistic of me to expect that the character whose name is front and center of the Season's screen, a character who is so central to Heathcliff's backstory, to be constructed carefully and written better. PM has time and time again shown they could write phenomenal female characters, especially those who are morally grey or even straight up antagonistic. Watching Cathy being defanged like that was confusing at best, and overall disappointing to me and many other people who have read WH and were looking forward to watching how they'd handle both WH and Heathcliff as a whole. PM has also shown they were able to handle their literary sources and make actually interesting changes that served their respective Cantos' purposes. Cantos 1 and 2 are far from being 'accurate' to The Metamorphosis and Crime and Punishment, yet I believe that they have actually used the themes present in those two books in a manner that was much more compelling than whatever happened with Canto 6, even with the very obvious changes they made to certain plot elements and even characters. Cathy's character being changed as much as she was serves /no/ narrative purpose aside from making her sweeter and more palatable, and thus viable as a love interest. 2/ I think that Heathcliff's arc should have been focused on himself, alone, and rebuilding himself anew after everything that happened to him at WH. Instead, his arc turns back to being about Cathy and about their doomed romance. From the beginning of the game, we are shown that a core theme to Heathcliff's characterization revolves around his self esteem and how he can only fathom his existence in relation to how good or how useful he is to others. He is a victim of a lifetime of abuse, and watching him break away from everything that had beaten down his self esteem, seeing him take off the rose tinted glasses he may have had about the one thing that may have been the least bad at WH, could have been a first step. The fact that one of the heaviest scenes in the novel, the moment where Heathcliff can no longer bear the manner in which he was treated, was cheapened to just a 'misunderstanding' and that 'if he had just stayed longer, he'd know that Cathy really loves him, so everything would have been ok'... again, doesn't sit right with me. My point isn't that the story shouldn't be about hope or shouldn't have a more positive message. My point was that the positive message should have been Heathcliff's recovery and beginning to build his own sense of self rather than a shoehorned love story. Believe it or not, I wholeheartedly believe that Canto 6 is a beautiful, tender, bittersweet story, and I think I would have been obsessed with it... had it not been so heavily tied to Wuthering Heights. Canto 6 can only be enjoyable to me of you wholly divorce it from the literary source it pulls /everything/ from. It's why I said that I actually envy people who know nothing about WH because they get to enjoy Canto 6 without being burdened with the feeling of something important /missing/. It brings back an important argument of mine to the table: if you aren't going to stick to certain core aspects of Wuthering Heights... why reference WH /at all/? I mentioned it on the stream, but there are MANY other romantic novels with star crossed lovers out there, there's even characters among our current Sinner cast who have romances and love interests that would have fit the role of a hopeless romance much better. I will say this again and again and again, as many times as necessary so that people stop misconstruing this very important point: I do NOT expect a 1:1 adaptation of the novels, however Canto 6 is so deeply steeped in WH imagery and references that it's perfectly logical for me to not only question but also ascribe importance to PM making the narrative choices they did.
@@citroncyniquewuthering heights IS a love story. it’s gothic romance. heathcliff and catherine are just not meant to be with each other and it’s as if the universe itself is against them. a lot of your gripes with this canto come from your stubbornness to accept that limbus heathcliff and catherine are moreso meant to parallel hareton and small cathy, NOT their book counterparts. heathcliff has always been an amalgamation of both book!heathcliff and hareton. or do you think book!heathcliff has ever been an ounce as personable as the limbus one? catherine is still as self-serving as ever and she needs a nuclear type of world-breaking event to realize that hey, maybe she went a little bit overboard, but it’s kind of too late to go down a different path now. saying that she’s just a manic pixie dream girl is reductive of her character and pretty misogynistic. and heathcliff and catherine’s obsession with each other isn’t meant to be something positive. dante even notes that the way heathcliff is acting during the walpurgis event isn’t good. he isn’t done growing, and his story isn’t over. expecting him to solve most of his issues in one canto is unrealistic. he’s getting over his insecurities and starting to accept he is a person who’s worthy of love, and he will keep growing down the line and i’m sorry, but i really doubt you care about cathy that much when your first reflex was to compare her to a woman she has nothing in common with (“cathy isn’t beating the ishmael allegations”), and one of your best-known comics is one of… ishmael being upset at heathcliff for calling her the name of his ex-lover. wonderful stuff. heathcliff and ishmael are foils to EACH OTHER, not foils of each other’s dead lovers. i do find it amusing that you complain about how cathy isn’t a manipulative jealous girlboss (very feminist portrayal!) when that’s been pretty much your portrayal of her pre-canto and the cathy we got pretty much blocked any chance of something like heathmael happening. but yeah, sure, cathy’s been declawed and turned into a manic pixie dream girl. she should have had a hair pulling session with ishmael over a man instead. that would have fixed her
it was a delight being on stream with you all! thank you for letting me yap!! see you next time! ;w; 🥰
You're an absolute delight to have on stream! Thank you for joining~
looney tunes mention woo we making it outta the inferno with this one !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok, I finally got to listen to this (thanks Emi and Owen for the link)
And, after listening to Welv's and specially Emi's perspective, the two biggest book simps, I finally understood the Canto...
I'm not gonna post a Bible on it, because I'm a drop of water in the ocean, but what I will say is a bit of why I think I finally got it...
I mastered the ability of perspective analysis and clear expectations over time, I'm kinda obsessed with seeing things from other's PoV, but Canto 6... It was up until now very murky in my mind, and the main fault lied within WH, the book (because I'm also a helpless bookworm who quite literally devours literature left and right)...
As much as everyone's role aligned with the Canto, it felt off for various reasons... There were many lost pieces hidden out of my reach, and nobody I know is both into PM and books (I, funnily enough, know more people that's into PM than into books, and I don't know a lot of people) so I couldn't for the love of Carmen sit and compare ideas with someone...
Hearing what you lot had to say about Canto 6 actually provided me with most of the pieces I needed to finally complete the puzzle...
The ticking clock in the flashback, Cathy's demeanor, Revenge vs Remember, Nelly's betrayal, Isabella Linton....
Just a bunch of things I believe I finally understand in full
And sorry if anyone wanted to read that, but look at how long the comment already is and I basically said nothing of value XD
Btw, if I had to give my favorite moment and my least favorite one from the Canto
Best for me would be Meursault having an opinion not based on cold hard facts, and worst definitely the gratuitous shouting of out-of-context book lines at the end of Erlkönig's fight
I HATE HOW THEY WASTED ONE OF THE COLDEST, MOST TRAGICALLY SPITEFUL LINE OF THE BOOK, THE TITULAR HEARTBREAKING, WITH RANDOM VERBAL DIARRHEA and nobody can convince me they did it well, by far one of the lowest points of the game for me, and saying with half of Canto 2 twisting a knife on my back
And with that, I also feel obligated to say I loved Canto 6 but I see where Emi is coming from
Adieu
You know what the canto needed? Another 4 hour mirror dungeon at the end.
WHAT THE HELL WHY DID NO ONE TELL ME ABOUT THIS PODCASTS
Im only like halfway watching the stream but consider this a shower thought.
Two things stick to me so far cathy's description in the book (part of her that mistreats heath due it being a release to her) and her limbus version being intrested in inventing.
Now i think a way to put a spin in Cathy's character to be slightly more book accurate is to make her esentially talentless in the field. Her marriage to Linton becomes more a personal goal rather then helping heath. Linton still is cucked but so is heath since he doesn't have the means to support Cathy's interest. We can still put in the whole "pure love" part in but her interests just puts a lot more priority.
I like to preface that this is very much a shower thought with barely any basis.
i think you guys missed an important factor about why Heathcliff scratched over his bat by focusing to much on "remember". Because it originally said "Revenge", but after this Canto, there just is no Revenge left, everyone except Nelly is dead. We also already dealt with Nelly; Heathcliff decided not to kill her, so one of his two main motivations in life is gone and he now focuses on the remaining one.
Also, could i suggest a UA-camr for you to invite? Frapollo94 is mainly known for his Fear&Hunger content, but he also streamed all the PM Games and is a huge fan, i would absolutely love to see him discuss PM.
I've seen Frapollo before, although idk if they're willing to come on.
@@Dememenic Me neither, i'm not expecting it. But i'd be happy if you asked him, though.
I really like that PM made a love story here
Part 3 completely threw off my expectations and I was like
This is so cringe and corny that it somehow wraps back to being kino from being so honest, raw and sincere
Catherine coming up with almost the exact same plan as Heath simultaneously is incredibly funny and sweet in my eyes
That portrayal of love really made me feel that canto 6 was peak
I am completely fine decoupling the book from the Limbus story
I dont see it as an adaptation but one that draws very simple inspiration and brushstrokes from it and completely reimagines its themes
It takes the original source material and adds a hodgepodge of colors and turns it into a Jackson Pollock painting with some of the original showing through. I can appreciate it and I really like it
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
I think this canto’s final fight could’ve benefited by having more flashbacks about the relationships between each character. What we got doesn’t bad but it feels like it was missing something. Especially Cathy’s flaws and the extent of her relationship with young Heathcliff should’ve been fleshing out more.
Overall, part 2 and 3 of this canto does feel like a bundle of hype moment wrapped up together rather than a coherence story for me. And I agreed that it should’ve been longer, especially part 3.
So after a careful consideration, my humble opinion does stand that it does not top Canto 4 (Which is still my favorite canto despite some pacing issues). It’s still good, just not peak limbus for me.
Bookcliff is coming
1:59:40 can we have a link for the google doc?
I might as well chime in and say what I consider the pros and cons of each part. Fair warning, I haven't read the book.
Part 1:
Pros:
- SQUIRREL ESQUIREEEEEE : )
- I love the way that all the characters are done here: Heathcliff, Linton, Nelly, Hindley, Linton, and ESPECIALLY Josephine.
- I like the tid bit of butlers and accountants being badass fixers
- I liked the haunted vibe a lot, along with Wuthering Heights being above the goddamb river and all the implications that brings.
Cons:
- SQUIRREL ESQUIRE : (
- Linton's lie about the letters.
- Quite frankly, I wish we got more Josephine screen time.
- There is so much set up here that isn't followed up. The weather as defense mechanism, the manor being above the river, the ghosts...
- More Cathy Schizzo pls
General: Funnily enough this is the one that left me the most lukewarm. I did like the ambience and setting, but it hadn't... gripped me, so to speak.
Part 2:
Pros:
- HEATHCLIFF DISTORTION
- I absolutely adored the Matt reveal.
- The ambivalence of Asseah.
Cons:
- Where did the Oufi go?
- The distortion thing got resolved so quickly... like goddammit.
- (I admit, these might be criticisms of part 3, rather than 2, but oh well.)
General: When this dropped and I finished watching it, I was counting the damn days, hours, minutes, seconds... I very much enjoyed it tbh! Borderline peak!
Part 3:
Pros:
- V E R G I L I U S. And I think it will be extremely interesting to see the consequences of this, especially since I am pretty sure that in the book he couldn't ascend due to his sins.
- DANTE POWERS. AYIN? TREE OF LIGHT. YES. YES. YES. I also adore what this scene means for both Dante, Heathcliff and the rest of the sinners. It goes to show how much he cares, and Heathcliff very much sees it.
- I adore that Erlking and All Cathy can't even fight together. Even at that point they can't intersect.
Cons:
- Again, the distortion thing.
- I've seen some people defend it, but I can't say I dig the ending of killing every cathy in all timelines. Perhaps out of lack of understanding. But I don't dig it.
- No lighting explanation, nor river.
General: I feel like this canto is a lot of this Canto was of Subverting expectations. The funeral instead of Party, the bittersweet ending instead of a good ending, and I have the personal opinion that Erlking and All Cath are actually the Heathcliff and Catherine of the novel.
Furthermore, many of the meanings of the Canto are blurry, so let me add my 2 cents: I feel like this canto is:
1. Misplaced sense of worth. Hindley on his father, Heathcliff on Catherine, Catherine on Heathcliff, Linton on Cathy, Nelly on both Cathy and Heathcliff's union or lack there of... This is quite honestly to me the strongest theme.
2. When bettering oneself comes crashing down, when hope is shattered.
3. Miscommunication, as mentioned
Theories:
- I still hold golden boughs are fragments of Carmen's nervous system, charged by the light.
- Heathcliff is gonna come crashing down so hard at some point.
About the video:
Also Imma say, Emi wanted Catherine to be a bitch so bad, the fact that she might have very well spent 40-50 minutes asking, nay, demanding for any crumbles of malice from Catherine is slightly annoying but kinda sad that it stopped her from enjoying the canto. (Having said that, I admire and slightly envy her self restraint with not taking the entire screentime)
On the other side, I feel some people really couldn't speak that much... pity, but oh well.
I'm definitely taking your criticism re: me taking a lot of talking time into account! I definitely had a lot to say, but you're correct in pointing out that I should have let my fellow podcasters have a bit more time (though- to be fair, I did do my best to take the time to prompt them here and there ;w; I just need to do it more, next time!)
With that said, I still stand by the points I brought up
@@citroncynique Nah, I absolutely get the feeling of having too much to say and needing to say it all chained for coherence, and as much as I say that, you did bring some really interesting points so ehhh it balances out. And it was very noticeable that you were very much trying to contain yourself, so credit where credit is definitely deserved. Regardless, thank you for offering your perspective which was quite different by virtue of having read the book which changed your "point of standing" and your expectations going into the canto. I think. I still haven't finished the video💀
Honeslty i will say regarding the river i dont think its had much or an explanation since Lob Corp but i havent finished ruina
Can I be in one?
I feel like Emi there really is missing the point of the last reality that we see at the end of the fight. That calm peaceful reality in which people are happy. Their happiness was possible and he was wrong for focusing so much on the negative. Funnily enough, much like Emi is doing.
... i dont get what you're saying here? my point was that PM never should have inserted that calm peaceful reality in the first place.
Wuthering Heights never was about how characters need to be happy, it's about the cycle of abuse. The negativity is a part of WH and removing it defeats the point of writing something based on WH in the first place.
I'm not gonna reiterate the points I've said over and over on this stream. If you don't get it, that's fine! But WH isn't a love story and never was one, and making it one does a disservice to both Heathcliff and Catherine as individual characters.
@@citroncynique Yes I know its not a love story, its a gothic novel. I understand where you're coming from I just don't agree with you or more I have a different interpretation. Now I will apologize that my wording is rather harsh. I was finding myself frustrated with you during from listening to the stream. While you did come with some good points I feel like you didn't let anybody else get a good word in about anything else unless they agreed with you. That distaste for that sort of behavior I have manifested in my comment and for that I again apologize for that. I'm going to better gather my thoughts and rewrite what I had written to better delivery my point without the vitriol added in. (I really hope I remember to in the morning)
@@citroncynique Yeah, I don’t really like that kind of outlook, it was just way too pessimistic. Mainly because the point of that scene is not that the characters need to be happy, but to show hope. If it is about the circle of negativity and abuse, then we got that with Heathcliff and Cathy from the mirror world already. Those are the people that only focus on tragedy, unable to move on from the circle of toxicity they inflicted upon themselves and each other, unable to see the other side of the possibilities, that thing can change for the better if they are willing to face themselves and be better. But it was easier for them to think that all their tale would end in tragedy, that’s why they would never change or face themselves like Limbus Heathcliff or even Cathy.
Sure, I do find this canto lacking in some aspect and certain theme should be explored more. But I find it unfair to criticize how the theme doesn’t fit one to one with the book because of course it wouldn’t . PM stories, despite how dark and depressing, are always about finding hope and breaking the circle of negativity, so of course the story is going to reflect that more. Cause this isn’t meant to be one to one adaptation of Wuthering heights anyway, and the sinner Heathcliff of limbus company wasn’t meant to be the exact same copy of his book counterpart either. (That’s Erkling)
Look I’m sorry if I come off too strong, but I don’t think some of your expectations are realistic for the story and it was way too pessimistic for my liking. I get where you coming from (Trust me, I really did), but I just don’t like the mindset behind it.
@@s.m.g.2391 I'm going to reiterate some points as clearly as possibly can:
1/ I primarily take issue with the fact that one of the central figures of Wuthering Heights (the novel) was turned into a manic pixie dead girlfriend for what amounts to a cheap pull at the audience's heartstrings over a romance that never was. Female characters in classic literature like Catherine Earnshaw are rarely allowed to be read and considered as themselves, warts and all, for their flaws rather than in spite of them.
I want to make this clear: me wishing that Cathy had been horrible doesn't mean that I hate her as a character; quite the opposite. It was /because/ of her flaws, her hysteria, her self-serving personality that she was such a compelling character in the source novel. Seeing her flattened into this sad girl who blames /herself/ for making Heathcliff miserable (book Cathy would NEVER take the blame for anything, it's one of her core traits) just... doesn't sit right with me. Even more so when parts 1 and 2 of Canto 6 felt like they were building up to something a little more heavy.
Cathy being propped up as an ingenious, manipulative woman who threw herself body and soul into a horrifying experiment and dragging down hundreds(?) of innocent T-Corp bystanders with her felt /very/ in character with regards to her book counterpart: a selfish woman who cared little who suffered as long as she got her way. Part 3 flipping that on its head to reveal that she was 'just' a sad, sad girl who was manipulated into agreeing to working with N Corp takes both agency and power away from her.
Making her weaker, more gentle, more empathetic, and softer so that we can have this bittersweet, grandiosely romantic narrative climax where we as the audience are supposed to believe that she and Heathcliff are star crossed lovers cheapens both Cathy and Heathcliff's characterisations.
I don't think it's unrealistic of me to expect that the character whose name is front and center of the Season's screen, a character who is so central to Heathcliff's backstory, to be constructed carefully and written better. PM has time and time again shown they could write phenomenal female characters, especially those who are morally grey or even straight up antagonistic. Watching Cathy being defanged like that was confusing at best, and overall disappointing to me and many other people who have read WH and were looking forward to watching how they'd handle both WH and Heathcliff as a whole.
PM has also shown they were able to handle their literary sources and make actually interesting changes that served their respective Cantos' purposes. Cantos 1 and 2 are far from being 'accurate' to The Metamorphosis and Crime and Punishment, yet I believe that they have actually used the themes present in those two books in a manner that was much more compelling than whatever happened with Canto 6, even with the very obvious changes they made to certain plot elements and even characters.
Cathy's character being changed as much as she was serves /no/ narrative purpose aside from making her sweeter and more palatable, and thus viable as a love interest.
2/ I think that Heathcliff's arc should have been focused on himself, alone, and rebuilding himself anew after everything that happened to him at WH. Instead, his arc turns back to being about Cathy and about their doomed romance. From the beginning of the game, we are shown that a core theme to Heathcliff's characterization revolves around his self esteem and how he can only fathom his existence in relation to how good or how useful he is to others. He is a victim of a lifetime of abuse, and watching him break away from everything that had beaten down his self esteem, seeing him take off the rose tinted glasses he may have had about the one thing that may have been the least bad at WH, could have been a first step. The fact that one of the heaviest scenes in the novel, the moment where Heathcliff can no longer bear the manner in which he was treated, was cheapened to just a 'misunderstanding' and that 'if he had just stayed longer, he'd know that Cathy really loves him, so everything would have been ok'... again, doesn't sit right with me.
My point isn't that the story shouldn't be about hope or shouldn't have a more positive message. My point was that the positive message should have been Heathcliff's recovery and beginning to build his own sense of self rather than a shoehorned love story.
Believe it or not, I wholeheartedly believe that Canto 6 is a beautiful, tender, bittersweet story, and I think I would have been obsessed with it... had it not been so heavily tied to Wuthering Heights. Canto 6 can only be enjoyable to me of you wholly divorce it from the literary source it pulls /everything/ from. It's why I said that I actually envy people who know nothing about WH because they get to enjoy Canto 6 without being burdened with the feeling of something important /missing/.
It brings back an important argument of mine to the table: if you aren't going to stick to certain core aspects of Wuthering Heights... why reference WH /at all/? I mentioned it on the stream, but there are MANY other romantic novels with star crossed lovers out there, there's even characters among our current Sinner cast who have romances and love interests that would have fit the role of a hopeless romance much better.
I will say this again and again and again, as many times as necessary so that people stop misconstruing this very important point: I do NOT expect a 1:1 adaptation of the novels, however Canto 6 is so deeply steeped in WH imagery and references that it's perfectly logical for me to not only question but also ascribe importance to PM making the narrative choices they did.
@@citroncyniquewuthering heights IS a love story. it’s gothic romance. heathcliff and catherine are just not meant to be with each other and it’s as if the universe itself is against them.
a lot of your gripes with this canto come from your stubbornness to accept that limbus heathcliff and catherine are moreso meant to parallel hareton and small cathy, NOT their book counterparts. heathcliff has always been an amalgamation of both book!heathcliff and hareton. or do you think book!heathcliff has ever been an ounce as personable as the limbus one?
catherine is still as self-serving as ever and she needs a nuclear type of world-breaking event to realize that hey, maybe she went a little bit overboard, but it’s kind of too late to go down a different path now. saying that she’s just a manic pixie dream girl is reductive of her character and pretty misogynistic. and heathcliff and catherine’s obsession with each other isn’t meant to be something positive. dante even notes that the way heathcliff is acting during the walpurgis event isn’t good. he isn’t done growing, and his story isn’t over. expecting him to solve most of his issues in one canto is unrealistic. he’s getting over his insecurities and starting to accept he is a person who’s worthy of love, and he will keep growing down the line
and i’m sorry, but i really doubt you care about cathy that much when your first reflex was to compare her to a woman she has nothing in common with (“cathy isn’t beating the ishmael allegations”), and one of your best-known comics is one of… ishmael being upset at heathcliff for calling her the name of his ex-lover. wonderful stuff. heathcliff and ishmael are foils to EACH OTHER, not foils of each other’s dead lovers. i do find it amusing that you complain about how cathy isn’t a manipulative jealous girlboss (very feminist portrayal!) when that’s been pretty much your portrayal of her pre-canto and the cathy we got pretty much blocked any chance of something like heathmael happening. but yeah, sure, cathy’s been declawed and turned into a manic pixie dream girl. she should have had a hair pulling session with ishmael over a man instead. that would have fixed her