Thanks very much. We were initially planning to just focus in on Luthen but the more we watched the scene the more we realised we couldn't ignore him. I felt a lot watching his internal struggle play across his face.
15:45 I interpreted Luthen’s mention of the daughter as *guilting* Lonnie, saying “these men might’ve had families too. They are dying for your family, your future. You want to be her father, and I’m giving it to you.” The tragedy is, after this conversation, Lonnie will go home and hold his baby girl in his arms, and know that fifty men had to die for that moment to happen. His relationship with her will forever be bloodstained.
It was going to be bloodstained either way. It's just that, in this manner, he understands it. Had he actually quit...then everyone who dies at the hands of the Empire when the Rebellion ultimately fails, would be at least in part his responsibility. There was never any way he was going to get away from it clean. Even if he'd never agreed to help from the start, his hands would be stained. There are no innocents.
So you didn't have parents who served under fire, and you've never needed to analyze how they feel about the things they've done? Human beings can't bear unlimited trauma and raise a family, unless they want their family to also die deaths of despair. What humans do is bury their horror, and maybe if their nephews get them really drunk on their 50th wedding anniversary, they'll describe their experience as 'harrowing and sublime'. People invent stories to forget what really happened, they don't see their familial relationships as "forever bloodstained".
If Luthen even suspects the ISB is coming for Lonnie he'd probably kill him before they got to him. Another horrible nightmare of a price Luthen would pay for his cause.
@@thegrunbeld6876 Of course not, once you commit to the cause there's no turning back. Love the fact that Luthen is lamenting about making these extremely tough yet necessary choices.
This old geek lady is impressed, since I've met few people (mostly old Star Wars geeks whose fathers served in the US Intelligence Community) who've studied the philosophical, ethical and moral implications of revolutions or war. However, I'm an Army Brat whose father worked in Military Intelligence (logistics, how do you think people serving in missile silos get their food, clothing and furniture, never mind how the DARPA plans to survive nuclear holocaust were made?). I always had questions that could never be answered until my father was dead and events related to four wars were declassified. This means that I have some specific information that you've missed: there is a term to describe what happens when one decides =not= to act: "Moral Hazard". Moral Hazard has a specific definition in economics: "Moral Hazard is the lack of incentive to guard against risk where one is protected from its consequences." Luthen isn't responsible for killing the Spellhaus team directly, the Empire kills them, Luthen's not at risk for blame. Did you notice that Luthen uses the same logic when arguing with Mon Mothma after the Aldhani heist, when she protests that the inevitable crackdown means that "people will get hurt"? Luthen replies that people needed a poke to remind them of why the Empire is a bad thing for everyone. It's not the Rebels fault that the Emperor needed to have the "bad taste washed out of his mouth", right? In Business we use a big-picture analysis tool called SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats) to guide decision making. Sadly, most organizations have C-Suites that are populated by 'corporate psychopaths' with cognitive impairments so severe that they can't keep more than one idea at a time in their head. Just like the Emperor, they'll lash out with vindictive rage, regardless of how many ISB operatives explain the likely consequences of vindictive action, or inaction against atrocities rising from vindictive action. We need people like Luthen who can perform the SWOT analysis for every situation, but it's a lot to ask, right?
It’s a masterpiece most call it slow, not all but some, Who don’t, Are so captivated, Even enthralled, By it, With it, We feel its power, Understanding the call, Been at that place, Have felt the claws, The Shock, The pain, Hateful, Enjoyed disdain, Sickening regrets, Fueled by rage, Shame and anger, Still can’t look away, The control, The order, The unkempt stains, Violence, Terror, Torment, Silent pain. Are those screams.? Do you hear them.? Hear the pain, Hear the fear, Those are kids, It’s depraved Tears escape. Payment to and for, The life for others, They matter more, Well aware the cost, You know you can’t, But still move on, Programmed yes, Though not by you, Sure and steady A steward of Man, Barring forward, Cold and wet, Still ever forward, The rain feels warm, It was never cold, Moving forward despite the weight, You survived, forgave, Remain Now come you, Faced to face, All those forgone years of hate, With what is andor, What is it.? Fate.? Half full memories, Perhaps dreams, All so vague, But when or why, will they remain.? Andor is pain, Andor is shame, It is dismay, hate, Rage; Even still love is seen, despite the bitterness, Fuck that rage, Depicting loyalty, Strength, And better days, Conscious, Courageous, Forgiving, Steady onward, Must go forward. Honor, Love, Respect, And virtue, it’s filled with loss, Yet it is still, So beautiful, My heart begins to fill, others may make the claim, It’s boring garbage, fit only for disdain, I smile inside silently glad, For they are those who never have, Had to bear, That just as many others continue to, Pray that God never minds explain, Why Andor justly is proclaimed, As good as Empire n all its fame, Andor is for those who live in pain, Proud are they who bear the weight, It’s easy now, Go ahead add more weight, I’ll take it all, If it saves another’s day, From even a moment of such pain, Through hard earned days, Praise be to God, Who showed that me how, To live with pain, and hate, Take it from others spare them, Save them be it in thy power, Even only for just one hour ----- I’m no poet, I just wrote what my opinion, and how it made me feel.
This talk about Luthen’s tactics reminds me of a definition of terrorism that I really liked, terrorism is a PR campaign with violence. It’s aim is to provoke their target to overreact and recruit the friends and family of the victims who are killed or injured by terrorists opponents.
IF Loni is discovered, that makes his daughter a useful tool during his torture, to find out what he knows about the rebellion and Luthen. Luthen was prepared to kill his "loose end", Cassian Andor - just as a way of tidying up. Loni is a much more serious problem if he's caught. I think Luthen would make sure he never ended up anywhere near an ISB torture chamber. I wouldn't be surprised if Kleya was at the top of the elevator shaft waiting with knife in hand, if Luthen had told her the meeting hadn't gone as expected.
Agreed, that's kinda why I changed my mind so quickly, I started processing that side and thought "oh yeah, Steve is right, he'd have no choice but to kill Lonni"
You guys bounce off of eachother in such a wonderful way to watch. I'm sure you guys follow some form of script, but your analysis/delivery comes so natural, it's simply a delight to watch . And the analysis itself is top notch as well! I binged enough video essays about Andor, but this one and the one in which you compare its opening with Ahsoka's are definitely the best I've watched; not because my opinion was validated, but because your insights made me aware of new details/elements that I otherwise would not have noticed/payed attention to and thus could not have enjoyed. How great Lonnie's actor is, is an example of something I simply did not appreciate enough until now. You two are a joy to watch and listen to, and I hope you'll delve into Andor season 2 when that rolls around!
Luthen's speech is poetry, read as poetry. Wonderful performance. His 'ghosts' bit is also about how he is haunted by those he has killed, and will be haunted by those 50 he is sacrificing to save Lonnie. Its great.
"The Rebellion comes first. We just take what's left" [for love, kindness, kinship etc.] That's the price of resistance against the most powerful fascist government ever known. Beautiful writing.
As Lonnie’s daughter grows, he and his wife will have to maintain allegiance to the Empire at home. And his daughter is likely to grow up as a fervent supporter of the Empire
Great analysis. I almost wish you had continued and did the follow up scene as well, where Luthen has to convince Saw to sacrifice Kreegyr’s men. Interestingly, Luthen tells Lonni it’s 50 men, but in that later scene he tells Saw it’s 30 men (plus Kreegyr). Which one was the real number, if either? Maybe he made the number larger for Lonni so it seemed like a bigger sacrifice, to make Lonni feel more valuable, but made it smaller for Saw to seem like he’s sacrificing less. Or maybe it’s something else entirely. But when we do get to the immediate aftermath of Spellhaus at the ISB, Blevin walks in the room and asks how many attacked and Lonni tells him that they’re still counting the bodies. It’s left very intentionally ambiguous.
I've always appreciated Robert Emms in this scene, but your breakdown really adds a whole new dimension to his performance. In particular, he's a much more equal partner in this scene than it initially appears. I hadn't quite registered just how much respect Luthen is paying him in this. I don't think it's just manipulation, I think Luthen truly respects Lonny on a deep and fundamental level. When Luthen says "hero" he means it. When Lonny asks what Luthen has sacrificed he genuinely takes a moment to respect the question before answering. Lonny looks young but he has clearly been in this game a long time and sacrificed deeply, in many of the same ways Luthen himself has. Even while Luthen has no choice but to force Lonny back to his job, back to work, and cannot, will not entertain even for an Imperial Second the possibility that Lonny has any way out.
....and yeah DEFINITELY do more Andor stuff because I tell you, Andor may not have had the viewership at its original airing, but I guarantee you that when season 2 comes, it will be one of the most anticipated series on Disney. Word of mouth has this building slow, but you will see a crescendo when episode 1 of season 2 drops. I have not been this invested in watching secondary material about a show since the Matrix. I have now viewed more material about Andor on UA-cam than the show itself. This was a great video, so yeah, go ahead and make more. My only correction is that for those who had not watched Andor, that yeah that scene with Lonnie WAS a spolier.
Great commentary guys, I notice that Luthen says: I share my dreams with ghost, in the present tense, to me that it's not only a reference to his haunting past but to the very real possibility that his current alive collaborators will end up dead, they are walking men and women, they are ghost.
This is exactly how intelligence agents manage their assets. They treat them like children. Break them down, then build them back up. Luthen's speech to Lonnie is a father figure coming clean. It's heartfelt, and meaningful, but I don't think for a second that it isn't meant to twist the knife a little deeper. It's a guilt trip. I think that's what Luthen meant when the said 'I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy." Luthen has had to become a master of lies and manipulation, knowing full well what his attempt at rebellion will cost to the entire galaxy.
"we need heroes Lonnie, and here you are" - sharp about turn from the rhetoric leading up to this. He's had the stick and it's probably enough, but here's a carrot too. Luthen wants Lonnie scared but if he doesn't feel appreciated he could just disappear
All this is also why the antagonists work so well. They are in the end just people in white uniforms walking around their halls and corridors and talking. Yet through all that are built up around them they come across as far more dangerous, deadly and destructive then the ones running around with lightsabers and blasters in the other shows.
The almost-imperceptible nod Skarsgard gives before launching into his soliloquy really helps sell it. That was the moment Luthen decided to keep it 100%.
The way Luthen is written is also done so cleverly for it to tie in with the original triology and have it make sense. From the point of view of this show, the events of a new hope are like a big performance, a tale of heroes. Yes what Luke did was significant, but he gets to be the hero in the public eye when he's not owed all the credit. The characters in Andor walked so he could run. He gets the privilege of being a hero, an honest, noble saviour. And his righteousness is what the world will know, it's what will give them hope and inspire the next generation or whatever. There's no place for Luthen in this picture, his sacrifice will be forgotten.
like Trump or Kamala That 20-year-old had the right idea, but he missed - and a defiant Trump stood right back up and shook his fist - so "heroic" For now, it's got to be Kamala ... Trump is a horror show of a man - a deranged egopath that supports Vladimir Putin They seem to enjoy their status as global James Bond villains Trump, the fat ginger-haired guy that cheats at golf - international menace, international cheat ... Putin, Number 2 in SPECTRE - thinks he can do better than Hitler
More Andor content! Yes please. Fantastic video and looking forward to more. Agree that it's the best Star Wars ever. I expected something good because I actually payed attention to what we knew before they released this, and yet it blindsided me.
When Luthen says, "Calm. Kindness. Kinship..." There is the slightest pause before he says,"Love."His eyes wander, and it is as if for a moment he lingers on a poignant memory, perhaps of a love lost.
Great commentary! I also love how Luthen’s theme (it's called Luthen of Coruscant in the soundtrack) mirrors his words about the equation and it's only one conclusion. You can literally hear this tragic conclusion in the music.
I’ve watched and re-watched this scene many times, as well as watching other content creators discuss the amazing Luthen monologue. Your analysis has made me pay even closer attention and revealed to me even more about the dynamic of these two characters. It is easy to get caught up in the drama of the exchange and miss the little things, like Lonnie’s dry mouth and unfocused eyes. Thank you for drawing attention to these critical moments in the midst of one of the most powerful moments in an incredibly powerful storyline. Definitely worth the sub. More please. And yes, it is a threat. Luthen knows he has to show Lonnie there are no options for either of them. He knows he is only a moment away, every moment, from complete disaster. Also, I just this time noticed Luthen’s pause before his monologue. Unlike his instant decision to burn Kreiger, he has to gather himself for a second. He is about to reveal himself in a way he has not before.
I haven't seen this discussed, especially within the context of this monologue. But I was really affected when Luthen was talking to Saw Garrera in the following episode. Saw keeps saying that 50 men will be sacrificed and Luthen corrects him repeatedly, adding "plus Kreager." To me that is a man who has burned as much of his decency as he could but still can't manage to burn all of it and needs to remind Saw, as much as himself, of the depth of the sacrifice the rebels are making. I also think Luthen and Nemik are two sides of the same coin and both are critical to rebellion. Luthen will get shit done but Nemik will inspire others to do. Rebellions need people who haven't burned their decency, like Nemik, otherwise what the hell are you fighting for?
I really wanted to get to the Saw scene as well because it's very much a continuation of this one but we'd been going an hour on the recording and we didn't want this to be so big that people didn't watch. I love that scene a lot though. It shows that Luthen does still have elements of self-doubt and is letting someone else in to share the stress of the decisions he makes. It shows he still has a little bit of humanity even if he thinks he's lost it all.
This show I one of my favorites shows I've seen period. It might be my favorite Star Wars thing. The writing, acting, camera work, directing, everything is so incredible. I keep coming back to this sequence as well because it is so damn good. This scene has so much depth to it. This character is so complicated. Something I have always thought was very fascinating is who Luthen was before all of this. On the internet I have seen people speculate that he was a Jedi or a higher ranking military person before the Empire due to the skillset he displays. But I genuinely think that the truth is that Luthen was just a normal, maybe wealthy, man who was probably the same person he dresses as selling artifacts and 15 years ago, when the Republic fell, he decided to dedicate his life into bringing that Republic back. As you said, this is someone who thinks at every moment about his plans, about this rebellion, about taking down that Empire. This man who was probably just a guy deciding to dedicate his life to something not for any profit or recognition but to stop repression and hate. But in that he has lost humanity. He's now just a force of will. This character is so ridiculously incredible that it's frustrating how well he's written.
He's a hero is what he is To some he lost humanity to others he transcended humanity he unshackled himself from the petty pursuits of lesser men and their common desires and gave himself over.completely to purpose higher than himself and became a force for change with sheer focus will and tenacity. He's at the same time trapped and liberated by his role in this war. Based on his skill set it's quite clear he has some professional background in Warefare or espionage. Even if it's something as simple as having been an undercover cop when he was young then retired and opened a shop only for the empire to rise and he dusted off his old skill set and got contacts in the underworld to set up a rebellion.
Andor was delayed due to covid, they had an extra year to work on the script before they could start shooting. Does anyone think that year was wasted?! Now we're being told that it's going to be 2025 before season 2, because of the strikes. When the writing is this good! I do not care that it 2's years between seasons. Just give me the good stuff! Oh and drop actors in like Stellan Skarsgård and Robert Emms who can crush the emotion's of the scene. This was the moment Star Wars stopped being just a silly childhood fantasy. It also became adult drama.
When Luthen says he’s given up inner peace, I take that to mean that he will never be able to live peacefully with the choices he’s made in this rebellion. He’s done too much evil essentially to be able to look past it all. A comparison is Thanos in the MCU. He is willing to sacrifice half of all life for the betterment of the other half and is looking forward to sitting on a farm basking in the sun at a grateful universe. And even at the end of Infinity War he does that. Luthen can never put himself in that position if he makes it out alive in this rebellion. He will always live with the horrific choices he made.
I feel that when he says 'there is no ground beneath my feet' he could also be referencing moral ground due to the sheer amount of horror he has commited for his dream
Absolutely possible! I think this speech is a great example of individual lines having multiple possible meanings but all combining to make the same ultimate point. They were very, very efficient here.
Very well spoken! This scene is incredible at saying many things at once and conveying themes elegantly and impactfully. Would be happy to watch many Andor videos from you!
I think this shows the true cost of rebelling the loss of every assurance. The chance that you and all of your comrades end up dead to protect another small part of the plan
Andor is not only the best thing that has come out of the Star Wars universe, it's also one of my all time favorite shows. At least one of the best first season of a show.
I personally haven’t even reached as deep of a level of thinking of Andor as you 2 have but I have to say this is a very brilliant video absolutely lovely, but to give my two cents on what Lutheran said to Lonnie. What really struck my core is when Lutheran mentioned that, “I burn my life for a sunrise that I’ll never see.” With my simpleton mind, I immediately think “oh, he’s talking about Luke” as I had immediately thought of Luke, looking out to the Tattooine sunrise, and also him winning the rebellion prize at the end of a Star Wars EP4. But not Luke himself, in particular, he’s sacrificing everything for the idea of Luke before he even knows that that could possibly happen. Everything Lutheran said tied back to Luke Skywalker and I loved every single bit of it because Luke is my favorite Star Wars character and the OT are my favorites ever. Andor and Rogue made me greatly appreciate The OT Heroes so much more because they are quite literally the miracles and dreams of those who died before them. Amazing video, sorry for the long comment! In short what I take away from this is Lutheran is the Monster In secret so that Luke may be the Hero
Last one, I promise! My favourite Star Wars: 1. Andor 2. A New Hope 3. Rogue One 4. Empire Strikes Back 5. Return of the Jedi You'll notice that all of these have "The Empire" in them ... I think they're central to the word "wars" in Star Wars. Two old farts dicking around with some light sabres in the background never interested me. It was the David v Goliath struggle between relatively few rebel warriors vs an arrogant, self-entitled bunch of British aristrocrats - who ruled the entire galaxy with an iron fist, and even a huge planet-killing artificial moon! How do you begin to take that down? Andor, painfully, shows you how.
Great job guys. Love that you gave this remarkable speech the analysis it deserves, and the first and only time I have seen *anyone* recognise the stellar acting that sells Lonnie's reaction.
What I love about this scene is the writings ability for Lonnie to set up Luthen to be able to Monologue. Bad writing would have him go straight into the monologue that might fell out of place
Luthen's transformed himself into a human computer, essentially; all logistics, but with a grasp of human emotions that he can appeal to (pride, self-preservation, doubt) to get the desired result. He runs the same equation every day; "I'm damned for what I do." He has to erase any possibility of ever being pardoned for his moral crimes, so he can be cruel without hesitation. If you know the second you cross the finish line that you'll be obliterated, you'll run that much faster to get there, knowing you will not have to face the consequences of remorse. Simultaneously, Luthen is stewing in the consequences not only of his younger self, but dozens of plants just like Lonnie. Kleya's line applies to Luthen here: "I have many needy faces at my window, of which you are but one of many." Lonnie is protesting this job because he does not want special treatment, but he cannot be allowed to walk while others must stay. AND he's too special to be sacrificed, as the very stress of his job proves it must be done.
The line about sharing his dreams with ghosts is masterful because on the face of it he is saying he is a dead man for what he is doing and that he has no one in his life other than the dead loved ones hes left behind....BUT, if you look a bit deeper into this, theres some pretty strong evidence that Luthen was a Jedi and that he is actually talking to ghosts of fallen Jedi. The complexity of this scene is so amazing because it has so much subtext and nuance that almost all people who watch it will miss because they are casual observers. Great breakdown guys, cheers.
His pain and word usage really sells me that he was a Jedi. That he gave up on the force and the pain of all his loss. The poetry of it is hard for me to deny, Star Wars is the poetry.
the shape of the elevator door resembles a playing card from Solo/Lando game and Lonnie standing there is like a joker in Luthens hand. He values this card more than 30 regular cards + one king in his other hand...
I discovered Stellan Skarsgard, from his four scenes in 38 seconds of screen time in The Hunt for Red October. He was Captain Tupelov on board the submarine Konavelov. I have made it a personal mission since then to see everything that he appears in, English or foreign language productions of whatever. He is a force of nature on screen and one of my favorites of all time. Larry Olivier, Petey O'Toole, (pre-diva) Marlon Brando, Donny Sutherland, Bobby Deniro (before he just started playing himself in roles), Brad (I'm always eating something in a scene in my movies) Pitt, and Eddie Norton...special mentions to Finney, Mckellan, Stewart, Poitier, Washington, Brannagh, and Mortensen. I tried to list from oldest to youngest, apologies if incorrect.
21:33 When it comes to loss of humanity, some have compared Luthen's character to a rebel version of Emperor Palpatine. In James Luceno's novel "Darth Plagueis," there is a part of Palpatine that understands humanity to some extent. Although Palpatine is clearly a psychopath, he significantly blames Plagueis for shaping him into the person who, in a fit of rage, murdered his own family. When Palpatine/Sidious assassinated Plagueis in his sleep, he allowed his mind to fill with the furious perspective of blaming Plagueis for everything.
Yeah feel free to breakdown every single scene from every single episode of Andor please 👍🏽 Especially my personal favourite - Luthen changing into the antiques dealer on the Fondor
Haha. Great little scene that. Tells you a lot about that mask he wears in public. Steve is away at the moment but we have 2 more videos planned for Andor. 1) Comparing his character introduction compared to Ahsoka's in her show. 2) How it really builds the empire as a threat!
I really enjoy listening to your discussion on Andor. I’ve listened to it a couple of times. Hope you continue producing more content on Andor. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
A wonderful analysis, far away from Star Wars fan hype! I hope and wish to see more from you soon, away from the fantastic channels of RationalityRules and LowFruits.
Another take I have to add to yours is that "I'm damned for what I do." Is meant to be complimented by "My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight. It's set me on a path for which there's no escape." Both because it's too late to turn back, but also because he himself could never turn back. It's not in him. These emotions that drive him, anger, ego, stubbornness. He could never let go of those emotions and thus he'll never be able to step away from the fight. It's like what he tells Andor when he rescues him from Ferrix "Despite what you tell yourself, you know you'll probably die fighting these bastards." Because he and Andor are one in the same, angry men filled with compassion. There is no escaping this fight because the fight is who they are. They can't fight their nature and that nature has damned them to this fight.
I interpreted Luthen’s statement about the sunrise he’ll never see as him knowing the seeds of the rebellion are going to take a while to plant, and it’ll take even longer for the rebellion to actually succeed, decades even. Luthen doesn’t think he’ll be alive by the time the empire is overthrown, for one reason or another. Your interpretation is also 100% accurate though.
I love when Saw Gerrara asks him - "What are you?" I think Luthen's dialogue in this scene reveals what he is - an ex-Jedi - Calm (trait of a Jedi who has to disconnect with the meditative side of the force to hide who he truly is), shares his dreams with ghosts (dead Jedi), condemned to use the tools of my enemy (dark side), his anger, ego, unwillingness to yield, eagerness to fight. "It's set me on a path for which there's no escape" - FROM THE DARK SIDE! And if that isn't enough, he wears a blue Kyber crystal and carries a staff that is suspiciously lightsaber shaped. Oh, he also runs an antique shop full of Jedi artifacts.
The obvious implications of "I am condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them" is the moral quandry that creates. But if Luthen has abandoned all delusions of ever being vindicated, why would the morality be the main issue? He's pragmatic, no? Perhaps this also means his enemies tools will be turned against *him.* Best case scenario; the Rebels win. If they do that, ideally, they will bury their pragmatism, crimes, and cruelty beneath the surface, only to be used discreetly. No government is ever free of corruption or violence--a new Republic after an Empire, least of all. Luthen has made himself a soiled tool and thus, he's doomed himself to obsolescence. This new republic will pretend to be better than the empire it replaced, yet men like him will either always have a use (therefore keeping the Empire's methodology alive), or he'll be seen as a sign of their ugly past and buried along with the comrades who brought about this new order.
Regarding Luthen "traps" Lonnie, Luthen was just 100% honest with Lonnie. Eventhough the resistence occasionally was able to have a large impact. The resistence had no hopes in defending Lonnie from the ISB. Like an event like this would cause such a massive reaction during which massive amounts of ressources would be used to find and 'question' Lonnie and the ressistence probably would have been dealt a massive set back, if not worse in the processe. Letting Lonnie leave would have had insane consequences
Andor reminds me of the classic old WW2 OSS spy thrillers. Andor and Rogue One are my favorite Star Wars products of recent years. I saw the original Star Wars in a drive in as a kid. I enjoy the more adult themes in the writing.
Lonnie’s “I’m honoring my vow” could also mean a) he joined the rebellion hoping he wouldn’t be valued more than anyone, hoping they had cleaner hands than the empire. b) He wants to clarify to Luthen that this is NOT him flipping-because if Luthen gets a whiff of mutiny, Lonnie is a dead man.
If Lonnie leaves the rebellion, he _must_ flip. He's working for the Empire. He can't walk away from that job, nor can he shirk it. Either he works fully against the rebellion or he works for the rebellion as their mole. Luthern would know this...he would not be able to allow Lonnie to live.
no - it IS a spoiler ... in that Loni turns out to be an inside man that the rebels have been "cultivating for years" He's so useful that they allow a team of 50 rebel fighters to fall into an imperial trap and die ... rather than call them off, which would have caused the Empire to look extremely closely at their own staff - which means Loni
It's a spoiler, but I dont think it's a huge one that will alter the story for people. It's not on the same scale as talking about character deaths and what that starts, nor choices a character makes and it's repurcussions on the world. It's more a spoiler that reveals characters' motivations and worldviews.
Luthen imho was just saying the obvious. If the ISB discovers there is a mole, Lonnie would be dead and his daughter wouldn't have a father. So he says that from a protective position, like if he cared personally for Lonnie's daughter. Of course, both Luthen and Lonnie know Luthen would probably get him first.
I don’t think that at this point Luthen is feeling fear. Worry, yes…but fear he likely has abandoned. And that worry possibly isn’t personal but purely operational. Luthen likely has submitted to his chosen purpose entirely.
I'm in a similar boat as Steve. The original trilogy of Star Wars is great, but I personally do not hold it up on a pedestal quite like some fans. The OT tells an amazing story, but is brought down by some of the light-hearted campiness that pervades George Lucas' work. When I think of an oppressive tyrannical facistic government and the struggle of the common man to overthrow this system that invades every aspect of your life, Andor nailed it to a T. Whether it's scenes in the ISB, scenes on Ferrix, scenes with Andor or scenes with Mon Mothma, the suffocating presence of the empire is real and it is FELT.
I’m thinking he’s a former Republic/Imperial officer who committed genocide under orders. Maybe Order 66. Can’t help but wonder if guilt is his driving motivation.
Andor is a piece of art and anyone who says otherwise is willfully shooting themselves in the foot. SW isn't a genre, it’s a universe and many different genres, themes, characters, and stories have yet to be discovered in that universe. If someone wants the 'feel' of the old movies there is good news, the old movies still exist, so literally go watch them again. As horrendous as some of the Last Jedi was I have grown to appreciate that Rian was also trying to make something new, his execution in some of that 'newness' was very questionable but the stuff that worked really worked. This misguided unconscious consensus of SW fans that we need to ‘recapture’ those feelings from the first films has led to an over saturation of bad SW trying to live up to something it shouldn’t even need to. Every SW project doesn’t need the same themes, characters, and feeling as the OG trilogy, that'd get repetitive and very boring. Most new projects have virtually become parodies of the source material where nothing is left but references cameos, and generic mic-drop lines that fit in any situation. I love Andor not just because it is full of heart, nuance, and complex storytelling in a thematically dark setting but also because of what it represents: innovation of SW and a new hope that future SW projects don't have to be self referential, sloppily written, poorly executed, mass produced projects rather than pieces of art that stand on their own merit. Disneys and the fans problem has been thinking that SW is a genre and everything must fit into very confined rules. If someone thinks Andor is too boring they need to consider spending less time feeding their dopamine receptors with stuff like Tik Tok and take the time to pay attention to what’s happening between action sequences. They’ll realize that that there is a lot of nuance and character work happening, it is a masterclass of writing and direction. If someone thinks Andor doesn't feel like SW they need to reframe how they understand the IP, it is not a genre of itself. The themes, characters, settings, sounds, textures, virtually everything is straight out of the Lucas doctrine and what story he was trying to tell. If someone thinks it stands shoulder to shoulder on equal footing as Obi Wan, Ahsoka, or Boba Fett they need to try and summarize one of those shows and try to summarize Andor, the difficulty to do so for Andor succinctly is indicative of the complex level of detail and care. Andor is lightyears ahead of those shows in virtually every cinema or storytelling criteria. Anyone who loves this show should be promoting it and recommending it to everyone they know. Systems either change or die and there is only one way out of this SW slump of bad media.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The ONLY channel I have seen that comments on Lonnie's acting....FULLY selling the character. Great job guys!!!
Thanks very much. We were initially planning to just focus in on Luthen but the more we watched the scene the more we realised we couldn't ignore him. I felt a lot watching his internal struggle play across his face.
I enjoy being taught additional details to appreciate, alternative lens
15:45 I interpreted Luthen’s mention of the daughter as *guilting* Lonnie, saying “these men might’ve had families too. They are dying for your family, your future. You want to be her father, and I’m giving it to you.”
The tragedy is, after this conversation, Lonnie will go home and hold his baby girl in his arms, and know that fifty men had to die for that moment to happen. His relationship with her will forever be bloodstained.
It was going to be bloodstained either way. It's just that, in this manner, he understands it.
Had he actually quit...then everyone who dies at the hands of the Empire when the Rebellion ultimately fails, would be at least in part his responsibility.
There was never any way he was going to get away from it clean. Even if he'd never agreed to help from the start, his hands would be stained.
There are no innocents.
@@DoremiFasolatido1979 true. There’s no way to win entirely.
Thankyou for summing up the price of war unlike a job you can't just quit one day and expect there to be no consequences.
@@wingsoffreedom3589 exactly.
So you didn't have parents who served under fire, and you've never needed to analyze how they feel about the things they've done? Human beings can't bear unlimited trauma and raise a family, unless they want their family to also die deaths of despair. What humans do is bury their horror, and maybe if their nephews get them really drunk on their 50th wedding anniversary, they'll describe their experience as 'harrowing and sublime'. People invent stories to forget what really happened, they don't see their familial relationships as "forever bloodstained".
If Luthen even suspects the ISB is coming for Lonnie he'd probably kill him before they got to him. Another horrible nightmare of a price Luthen would pay for his cause.
After revealing what he looks like, Luthen can't afford not to.
If you were in his position, would you choose not to? He knows his face, he would jeopardize the entire rebel operation.
@@thegrunbeld6876 Of course not, once you commit to the cause there's no turning back. Love the fact that Luthen is lamenting about making these extremely tough yet necessary choices.
This old geek lady is impressed, since I've met few people (mostly old Star Wars geeks whose fathers served in the US Intelligence Community) who've studied the philosophical, ethical and moral implications of revolutions or war. However, I'm an Army Brat whose father worked in Military Intelligence (logistics, how do you think people serving in missile silos get their food, clothing and furniture, never mind how the DARPA plans to survive nuclear holocaust were made?). I always had questions that could never be answered until my father was dead and events related to four wars were declassified. This means that I have some specific information that you've missed: there is a term to describe what happens when one decides =not= to act: "Moral Hazard". Moral Hazard has a specific definition in economics: "Moral Hazard is the lack of incentive to guard against risk where one is protected from its consequences." Luthen isn't responsible for killing the Spellhaus team directly, the Empire kills them, Luthen's not at risk for blame. Did you notice that Luthen uses the same logic when arguing with Mon Mothma after the Aldhani heist, when she protests that the inevitable crackdown means that "people will get hurt"? Luthen replies that people needed a poke to remind them of why the Empire is a bad thing for everyone. It's not the Rebels fault that the Emperor needed to have the "bad taste washed out of his mouth", right? In Business we use a big-picture analysis tool called SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats) to guide decision making. Sadly, most organizations have C-Suites that are populated by 'corporate psychopaths' with cognitive impairments so severe that they can't keep more than one idea at a time in their head. Just like the Emperor, they'll lash out with vindictive rage, regardless of how many ISB operatives explain the likely consequences of vindictive action, or inaction against atrocities rising from vindictive action. We need people like Luthen who can perform the SWOT analysis for every situation, but it's a lot to ask, right?
It’s a masterpiece most call it slow,
not all but some,
Who don’t,
Are so captivated,
Even enthralled,
By it,
With it,
We feel its power,
Understanding the call,
Been at that place,
Have felt the claws,
The Shock,
The pain,
Hateful,
Enjoyed disdain,
Sickening regrets,
Fueled by rage,
Shame and anger,
Still can’t look away,
The control,
The order,
The unkempt stains,
Violence,
Terror,
Torment,
Silent pain.
Are those screams.?
Do you hear them.?
Hear the pain,
Hear the fear,
Those are kids,
It’s depraved
Tears escape.
Payment to and for,
The life for others,
They matter more,
Well aware the cost,
You know you can’t,
But still move on,
Programmed yes,
Though not by you,
Sure and steady
A steward of Man,
Barring forward,
Cold and wet,
Still ever forward,
The rain feels warm,
It was never cold,
Moving forward despite the weight,
You survived,
forgave,
Remain
Now come you,
Faced to face,
All those forgone years of hate,
With what is andor,
What is it.?
Fate.?
Half full memories,
Perhaps dreams,
All so vague,
But when or why,
will they remain.?
Andor is pain,
Andor is shame,
It is dismay,
hate,
Rage;
Even still love is seen,
despite the bitterness,
Fuck that rage,
Depicting loyalty,
Strength,
And better days,
Conscious,
Courageous,
Forgiving,
Steady onward,
Must go forward.
Honor,
Love,
Respect,
And virtue,
it’s filled with loss,
Yet it is still,
So beautiful,
My heart begins to fill,
others may make the claim,
It’s boring garbage,
fit only for disdain,
I smile inside silently glad,
For they are those who never have,
Had to bear,
That just as many others continue to,
Pray that God never minds explain,
Why Andor justly is proclaimed,
As good as Empire n all its fame,
Andor is for those who live in pain,
Proud are they who bear the weight,
It’s easy now,
Go ahead add more weight,
I’ll take it all,
If it saves another’s day,
From even a moment of such pain,
Through hard earned days,
Praise be to God,
Who showed that me how,
To live with pain, and hate,
Take it from others spare them,
Save them be it in thy power,
Even only for just one hour
-----
I’m no poet, I just wrote what my opinion, and how it made me feel.
This talk about Luthen’s tactics reminds me of a definition of terrorism that I really liked, terrorism is a PR campaign with violence. It’s aim is to provoke their target to overreact and recruit the friends and family of the victims who are killed or injured by terrorists opponents.
Andor was so good that i was able to get my 80 year old mom to watch it and she liked it.
IF Loni is discovered, that makes his daughter a useful tool during his torture, to find out what he knows about the rebellion and Luthen.
Luthen was prepared to kill his "loose end", Cassian Andor - just as a way of tidying up.
Loni is a much more serious problem if he's caught. I think Luthen would make sure he never ended up anywhere near an ISB torture chamber.
I wouldn't be surprised if Kleya was at the top of the elevator shaft waiting with knife in hand, if Luthen had told her the meeting hadn't gone as expected.
Agreed, that's kinda why I changed my mind so quickly, I started processing that side and thought "oh yeah, Steve is right, he'd have no choice but to kill Lonni"
“The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.” Antonio Gramscii
You guys bounce off of eachother in such a wonderful way to watch. I'm sure you guys follow some form of script, but your analysis/delivery comes so natural, it's simply a delight to watch . And the analysis itself is top notch as well! I binged enough video essays about Andor, but this one and the one in which you compare its opening with Ahsoka's are definitely the best I've watched; not because my opinion was validated, but because your insights made me aware of new details/elements that I otherwise would not have noticed/payed attention to and thus could not have enjoyed. How great Lonnie's actor is, is an example of something I simply did not appreciate enough until now. You two are a joy to watch and listen to, and I hope you'll delve into Andor season 2 when that rolls around!
Thanks very much. We're very excited for season 2.
Luthen's speech is poetry, read as poetry. Wonderful performance. His 'ghosts' bit is also about how he is haunted by those he has killed, and will be haunted by those 50 he is sacrificing to save Lonnie. Its great.
"The Rebellion comes first. We just take what's left" [for love, kindness, kinship etc.]
That's the price of resistance against the most powerful fascist government ever known.
Beautiful writing.
As Lonnie’s daughter grows, he and his wife will have to maintain allegiance to the Empire at home. And his daughter is likely to grow up as a fervent supporter of the Empire
Great analysis. I almost wish you had continued and did the follow up scene as well, where Luthen has to convince Saw to sacrifice Kreegyr’s men.
Interestingly, Luthen tells Lonni it’s 50 men, but in that later scene he tells Saw it’s 30 men (plus Kreegyr). Which one was the real number, if either? Maybe he made the number larger for Lonni so it seemed like a bigger sacrifice, to make Lonni feel more valuable, but made it smaller for Saw to seem like he’s sacrificing less. Or maybe it’s something else entirely.
But when we do get to the immediate aftermath of Spellhaus at the ISB, Blevin walks in the room and asks how many attacked and Lonni tells him that they’re still counting the bodies. It’s left very intentionally ambiguous.
I wanted to do the Saw scene too but our recording was already over an hour lol
@@Media-Musings Dew it! ;)
I've always appreciated Robert Emms in this scene, but your breakdown really adds a whole new dimension to his performance. In particular, he's a much more equal partner in this scene than it initially appears. I hadn't quite registered just how much respect Luthen is paying him in this. I don't think it's just manipulation, I think Luthen truly respects Lonny on a deep and fundamental level. When Luthen says "hero" he means it. When Lonny asks what Luthen has sacrificed he genuinely takes a moment to respect the question before answering. Lonny looks young but he has clearly been in this game a long time and sacrificed deeply, in many of the same ways Luthen himself has. Even while Luthen has no choice but to force Lonny back to his job, back to work, and cannot, will not entertain even for an Imperial Second the possibility that Lonny has any way out.
....and yeah DEFINITELY do more Andor stuff because I tell you, Andor may not have had the viewership at its original airing, but I guarantee you that when season 2 comes, it will be one of the most anticipated series on Disney. Word of mouth has this building slow, but you will see a crescendo when episode 1 of season 2 drops. I have not been this invested in watching secondary material about a show since the Matrix. I have now viewed more material about Andor on UA-cam than the show itself. This was a great video, so yeah, go ahead and make more.
My only correction is that for those who had not watched Andor, that yeah that scene with Lonnie WAS a spolier.
Have to pray Gilroy is just allowed to do his thing and Kennedy/Filoni don't try and interfere.
Funny thing is that both Stellan and the actor for Lonnie both played in the chernobyl miniseries
Great commentary guys, I notice that Luthen says: I share my dreams with ghost, in the present tense, to me that it's not only a reference to his haunting past but to the very real possibility that his current alive collaborators will end up dead, they are walking men and women, they are ghost.
The walking dead, if you will.
This is exactly how intelligence agents manage their assets. They treat them like children. Break them down, then build them back up. Luthen's speech to Lonnie is a father figure coming clean. It's heartfelt, and meaningful, but I don't think for a second that it isn't meant to twist the knife a little deeper. It's a guilt trip. I think that's what Luthen meant when the said 'I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy." Luthen has had to become a master of lies and manipulation, knowing full well what his attempt at rebellion will cost to the entire galaxy.
"we need heroes Lonnie, and here you are" - sharp about turn from the rhetoric leading up to this. He's had the stick and it's probably enough, but here's a carrot too. Luthen wants Lonnie scared but if he doesn't feel appreciated he could just disappear
All this is also why the antagonists work so well. They are in the end just people in white uniforms walking around their halls and corridors and talking. Yet through all that are built up around them they come across as far more dangerous, deadly and destructive then the ones running around with lightsabers and blasters in the other shows.
The almost-imperceptible nod Skarsgard gives before launching into his soliloquy really helps sell it. That was the moment Luthen decided to keep it 100%.
The way Luthen is written is also done so cleverly for it to tie in with the original triology and have it make sense. From the point of view of this show, the events of a new hope are like a big performance, a tale of heroes. Yes what Luke did was significant, but he gets to be the hero in the public eye when he's not owed all the credit. The characters in Andor walked so he could run. He gets the privilege of being a hero, an honest, noble saviour. And his righteousness is what the world will know, it's what will give them hope and inspire the next generation or whatever. There's no place for Luthen in this picture, his sacrifice will be forgotten.
the horrific choices in the morality of war are not choosing between the good option or the bad but having to choose between TWO BAD OPTIONS.
like Trump or Kamala
That 20-year-old had the right idea, but he missed - and a defiant Trump stood right back up and shook his fist - so "heroic"
For now, it's got to be Kamala ...
Trump is a horror show of a man - a deranged egopath that supports Vladimir Putin
They seem to enjoy their status as global James Bond villains
Trump, the fat ginger-haired guy that cheats at golf - international menace, international cheat ...
Putin, Number 2 in SPECTRE - thinks he can do better than Hitler
More Andor content! Yes please. Fantastic video and looking forward to more.
Agree that it's the best Star Wars ever. I expected something good because I actually payed attention to what we knew before they released this, and yet it blindsided me.
I'm so happy to see you guys analyze this scene. This is my favorite moment in a series chalk FULL of brilliant moments...
"I am condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them" ... Mon Mothma said something similar.
When Luthen says, "Calm. Kindness. Kinship..." There is the slightest pause before he says,"Love."His eyes wander, and it is as if for a moment he lingers on a poignant memory, perhaps of a love lost.
Great commentary!
I also love how Luthen’s theme (it's called Luthen of Coruscant in the soundtrack) mirrors his words about the equation and it's only one conclusion. You can literally hear this tragic conclusion in the music.
I’ve watched and re-watched this scene many times, as well as watching other content creators discuss the amazing Luthen monologue. Your analysis has made me pay even closer attention and revealed to me even more about the dynamic of these two characters. It is easy to get caught up in the drama of the exchange and miss the little things, like Lonnie’s dry mouth and unfocused eyes. Thank you for drawing attention to these critical moments in the midst of one of the most powerful moments in an incredibly powerful storyline. Definitely worth the sub. More please. And yes, it is a threat. Luthen knows he has to show Lonnie there are no options for either of them. He knows he is only a moment away, every moment, from complete disaster. Also, I just this time noticed Luthen’s pause before his monologue. Unlike his instant decision to burn Kreiger, he has to gather himself for a second. He is about to reveal himself in a way he has not before.
I haven't seen this discussed, especially within the context of this monologue. But I was really affected when Luthen was talking to Saw Garrera in the following episode. Saw keeps saying that 50 men will be sacrificed and Luthen corrects him repeatedly, adding "plus Kreager."
To me that is a man who has burned as much of his decency as he could but still can't manage to burn all of it and needs to remind Saw, as much as himself, of the depth of the sacrifice the rebels are making.
I also think Luthen and Nemik are two sides of the same coin and both are critical to rebellion. Luthen will get shit done but Nemik will inspire others to do. Rebellions need people who haven't burned their decency, like Nemik, otherwise what the hell are you fighting for?
I really wanted to get to the Saw scene as well because it's very much a continuation of this one but we'd been going an hour on the recording and we didn't want this to be so big that people didn't watch.
I love that scene a lot though. It shows that Luthen does still have elements of self-doubt and is letting someone else in to share the stress of the decisions he makes. It shows he still has a little bit of humanity even if he thinks he's lost it all.
@@Media-Musings Exactly. He says explicitly that he's begun to have doubts. By getting Saw's agreement, he shares the moral burden.
One of the best and most insightful breakdowns I've seen on Star Wars. Earned a sub from me. I hope you guys build a huge channel!
This show I one of my favorites shows I've seen period. It might be my favorite Star Wars thing. The writing, acting, camera work, directing, everything is so incredible. I keep coming back to this sequence as well because it is so damn good. This scene has so much depth to it. This character is so complicated.
Something I have always thought was very fascinating is who Luthen was before all of this. On the internet I have seen people speculate that he was a Jedi or a higher ranking military person before the Empire due to the skillset he displays. But I genuinely think that the truth is that Luthen was just a normal, maybe wealthy, man who was probably the same person he dresses as selling artifacts and 15 years ago, when the Republic fell, he decided to dedicate his life into bringing that Republic back.
As you said, this is someone who thinks at every moment about his plans, about this rebellion, about taking down that Empire. This man who was probably just a guy deciding to dedicate his life to something not for any profit or recognition but to stop repression and hate. But in that he has lost humanity. He's now just a force of will.
This character is so ridiculously incredible that it's frustrating how well he's written.
He's a hero is what he is To some he lost humanity to others he transcended humanity he unshackled himself from the petty pursuits of lesser men and their common desires and gave himself over.completely to purpose higher than himself and became a force for change with sheer focus will and tenacity. He's at the same time trapped and liberated by his role in this war. Based on his skill set it's quite clear he has some professional background in Warefare or espionage. Even if it's something as simple as having been an undercover cop when he was young then retired and opened a shop only for the empire to rise and he dusted off his old skill set and got contacts in the underworld to set up a rebellion.
@@wingsoffreedom3589I always wondered how it came that he and Mon became acquaintances.
@@kathrinkweseleit7074 season 2 is coming
Andor was delayed due to covid, they had an extra year to work on the script before they could start shooting.
Does anyone think that year was wasted?!
Now we're being told that it's going to be 2025 before season 2, because of the strikes.
When the writing is this good! I do not care that it 2's years between seasons. Just give me the good stuff!
Oh and drop actors in like Stellan Skarsgård and Robert Emms who can crush the emotion's of the scene.
This was the moment Star Wars stopped being just a silly childhood fantasy. It also became adult drama.
When Luthen says he’s given up inner peace, I take that to mean that he will never be able to live peacefully with the choices he’s made in this rebellion. He’s done too much evil essentially to be able to look past it all. A comparison is Thanos in the MCU. He is willing to sacrifice half of all life for the betterment of the other half and is looking forward to sitting on a farm basking in the sun at a grateful universe. And even at the end of Infinity War he does that. Luthen can never put himself in that position if he makes it out alive in this rebellion. He will always live with the horrific choices he made.
btw, I didn't realize you had this channel. Love what you two create.
I feel that when he says 'there is no ground beneath my feet' he could also be referencing moral ground due to the sheer amount of horror he has commited for his dream
Absolutely possible! I think this speech is a great example of individual lines having multiple possible meanings but all combining to make the same ultimate point. They were very, very efficient here.
Very well spoken! This scene is incredible at saying many things at once and conveying themes elegantly and impactfully. Would be happy to watch many Andor videos from you!
I think this shows the true cost of rebelling
the loss of every assurance. The chance that you and all of your comrades end up dead to protect another small part of the plan
Andor is not only the best thing that has come out of the Star Wars universe, it's also one of my all time favorite shows. At least one of the best first season of a show.
I personally haven’t even reached as deep of a level of thinking of Andor as you 2 have but I have to say this is a very brilliant video absolutely lovely, but to give my two cents on what Lutheran said to Lonnie. What really struck my core is when Lutheran mentioned that, “I burn my life for a sunrise that I’ll never see.”
With my simpleton mind, I immediately think “oh, he’s talking about Luke” as I had immediately thought of Luke, looking out to the Tattooine sunrise, and also him winning the rebellion prize at the end of a Star Wars EP4. But not Luke himself, in particular, he’s sacrificing everything for the idea of Luke before he even knows that that could possibly happen.
Everything Lutheran said tied back to Luke Skywalker and I loved every single bit of it because Luke is my favorite Star Wars character and the OT are my favorites ever. Andor and Rogue made me greatly appreciate The OT Heroes so much more because they are quite literally the miracles and dreams of those who died before them.
Amazing video, sorry for the long comment! In short what I take away from this is Lutheran is the Monster In secret so that Luke may be the Hero
'One person's rebel is another's terrorist' - a very apt debate for our current times.
translation: "I'm not very smart", talk about basic primary school knowledge man...
@@larrote6467what definitions do you prefer for the two terms
You guys give pretty good commentary and analysis. I hope your channel grows.
Last one, I promise!
My favourite Star Wars:
1. Andor
2. A New Hope
3. Rogue One
4. Empire Strikes Back
5. Return of the Jedi
You'll notice that all of these have "The Empire" in them ... I think they're central to the word "wars" in Star Wars.
Two old farts dicking around with some light sabres in the background never interested me.
It was the David v Goliath struggle between relatively few rebel warriors vs an arrogant, self-entitled bunch of British aristrocrats - who ruled the entire galaxy with an iron fist, and even a huge planet-killing artificial moon!
How do you begin to take that down?
Andor, painfully, shows you how.
I am aboard with your list...
@@s.patterson5698 That's because my list is perfect.
PERFECT! ... I want that ringing in your ears!
I like all that plus the lightsabers it's why I love the old republic era.
I have the same top 5 different order, with RotS deserving a special mention as well.
We all have a monster inside us. Luthen found a reason to unleash it so I don't blame him.
Wtf did not expect rationality rules to be here. Guess I'm subscribing immediately!
Brilliant analysis and discussion. This scene is incredible and as you said every line has so much to dig into
Great job guys. Love that you gave this remarkable speech the analysis it deserves, and the first and only time I have seen *anyone* recognise the stellar acting that sells Lonnie's reaction.
"sickly green hue" - yes - like "Saw" or "Alien"
What I love about this scene is the writings ability for Lonnie to set up Luthen to be able to Monologue. Bad writing would have him go straight into the monologue that might fell out of place
Luthen's transformed himself into a human computer, essentially; all logistics, but with a grasp of human emotions that he can appeal to (pride, self-preservation, doubt) to get the desired result. He runs the same equation every day; "I'm damned for what I do." He has to erase any possibility of ever being pardoned for his moral crimes, so he can be cruel without hesitation. If you know the second you cross the finish line that you'll be obliterated, you'll run that much faster to get there, knowing you will not have to face the consequences of remorse.
Simultaneously, Luthen is stewing in the consequences not only of his younger self, but dozens of plants just like Lonnie. Kleya's line applies to Luthen here: "I have many needy faces at my window, of which you are but one of many." Lonnie is protesting this job because he does not want special treatment, but he cannot be allowed to walk while others must stay. AND he's too special to be sacrificed, as the very stress of his job proves it must be done.
The line about sharing his dreams with ghosts is masterful because on the face of it he is saying he is a dead man for what he is doing and that he has no one in his life other than the dead loved ones hes left behind....BUT, if you look a bit deeper into this, theres some pretty strong evidence that Luthen was a Jedi and that he is actually talking to ghosts of fallen Jedi. The complexity of this scene is so amazing because it has so much subtext and nuance that almost all people who watch it will miss because they are casual observers. Great breakdown guys, cheers.
Fantastic breakdown.
His pain and word usage really sells me that he was a Jedi. That he gave up on the force and the pain of all his loss. The poetry of it is hard for me to deny, Star Wars is the poetry.
the shape of the elevator door resembles a playing card from Solo/Lando game and Lonnie standing there is like a joker in Luthens hand. He values this card more than 30 regular cards + one king in his other hand...
I discovered Stellan Skarsgard, from his four scenes in 38 seconds of screen time in The Hunt for Red October. He was Captain Tupelov on board the submarine Konavelov. I have made it a personal mission since then to see everything that he appears in, English or foreign language productions of whatever. He is a force of nature on screen and one of my favorites of all time. Larry Olivier, Petey O'Toole, (pre-diva) Marlon Brando, Donny Sutherland, Bobby Deniro (before he just started playing himself in roles), Brad (I'm always eating something in a scene in my movies) Pitt, and Eddie Norton...special mentions to Finney, Mckellan, Stewart, Poitier, Washington, Brannagh, and Mortensen. I tried to list from oldest to youngest, apologies if incorrect.
Already left comment but had to leave another telling I’m new subscriber please please do more takes on Andor!!!!!! Highly enjoyable
You just earned a subscriber.
21:33 When it comes to loss of humanity, some have compared Luthen's character to a rebel version of Emperor Palpatine. In James Luceno's novel "Darth Plagueis," there is a part of Palpatine that understands humanity to some extent. Although Palpatine is clearly a psychopath, he significantly blames Plagueis for shaping him into the person who, in a fit of rage, murdered his own family. When Palpatine/Sidious assassinated Plagueis in his sleep, he allowed his mind to fill with the furious perspective of blaming Plagueis for everything.
38:25 Writing-wise, Andor is only eclipsed by Knights of the Old Republic 2
Yeah feel free to breakdown every single scene from every single episode of Andor please 👍🏽
Especially my personal favourite - Luthen changing into the antiques dealer on the Fondor
Haha. Great little scene that. Tells you a lot about that mask he wears in public. Steve is away at the moment but we have 2 more videos planned for Andor. 1) Comparing his character introduction compared to Ahsoka's in her show. 2) How it really builds the empire as a threat!
@@Media-Musings can’t wait 🔥🔥🔥
I really enjoy listening to your discussion on Andor. I’ve listened to it a couple of times. Hope you continue producing more content on Andor. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
A few thousand here and there...to save trillions in years to come?
That's an unbeatable bargain...
Yo you guys have great scene breakdowns please do more.
A wonderful analysis, far away from Star Wars fan hype! I hope and wish to see more from you soon, away from the fantastic channels of RationalityRules
and LowFruits.
Very good analysis! I think you hit everything spot on. It's so dense that some star wars fans got a bit lost I think.
Another take I have to add to yours is that "I'm damned for what I do." Is meant to be complimented by "My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight. It's set me on a path for which there's no escape." Both because it's too late to turn back, but also because he himself could never turn back. It's not in him. These emotions that drive him, anger, ego, stubbornness. He could never let go of those emotions and thus he'll never be able to step away from the fight. It's like what he tells Andor when he rescues him from Ferrix "Despite what you tell yourself, you know you'll probably die fighting these bastards." Because he and Andor are one in the same, angry men filled with compassion. There is no escaping this fight because the fight is who they are. They can't fight their nature and that nature has damned them to this fight.
I interpreted Luthen’s statement about the sunrise he’ll never see as him knowing the seeds of the rebellion are going to take a while to plant, and it’ll take even longer for the rebellion to actually succeed, decades even. Luthen doesn’t think he’ll be alive by the time the empire is overthrown, for one reason or another. Your interpretation is also 100% accurate though.
12:20 that line holds a lot. How many times has Luthen killed off allies in order to boost Lonni's career?
I love when Saw Gerrara asks him - "What are you?" I think Luthen's dialogue in this scene reveals what he is - an ex-Jedi - Calm (trait of a Jedi who has to disconnect with the meditative side of the force to hide who he truly is), shares his dreams with ghosts (dead Jedi), condemned to use the tools of my enemy (dark side), his anger, ego, unwillingness to yield, eagerness to fight. "It's set me on a path for which there's no escape" - FROM THE DARK SIDE! And if that isn't enough, he wears a blue Kyber crystal and carries a staff that is suspiciously lightsaber shaped. Oh, he also runs an antique shop full of Jedi artifacts.
Great takes
Would recommend the Saw and Luthen scene: 'Let's call it, war'
The obvious implications of "I am condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them" is the moral quandry that creates. But if Luthen has abandoned all delusions of ever being vindicated, why would the morality be the main issue? He's pragmatic, no?
Perhaps this also means his enemies tools will be turned against *him.*
Best case scenario; the Rebels win. If they do that, ideally, they will bury their pragmatism, crimes, and cruelty beneath the surface, only to be used discreetly. No government is ever free of corruption or violence--a new Republic after an Empire, least of all.
Luthen has made himself a soiled tool and thus, he's doomed himself to obsolescence. This new republic will pretend to be better than the empire it replaced, yet men like him will either always have a use (therefore keeping the Empire's methodology alive), or he'll be seen as a sign of their ugly past and buried along with the comrades who brought about this new order.
I love seeing Andor get love. It rightfully deserves it.
Regarding Luthen "traps" Lonnie, Luthen was just 100% honest with Lonnie. Eventhough the resistence occasionally was able to have a large impact. The resistence had no hopes in defending Lonnie from the ISB. Like an event like this would cause such a massive reaction during which massive amounts of ressources would be used to find and 'question' Lonnie and the ressistence probably would have been dealt a massive set back, if not worse in the processe. Letting Lonnie leave would have had insane consequences
Luthen's Monologue is essentially a summary of "The Revolutionary Catechism" by Sergei Nechayev.
Well said guys - very wonderful view on this scene and all you do - great job!
Andor reminds me of the classic old WW2 OSS spy thrillers. Andor and Rogue One are my favorite Star Wars products of recent years. I saw the original Star Wars in a drive in as a kid. I enjoy the more adult themes in the writing.
You guys are great!!! I subscribed.
Before watching the video. I think in his own eyes, yes
I think he’s mocking him when he says “we need heroes Lonnie, and here ‘You’ are” if ever so subtle it’s a kind of resentment towards him.
I forget who said this, but if Saw Gerera is the Rebellion’s version of Darth Vader, then Luthen would be the Rebellion’s Palpatine.
Lonnie’s “I’m honoring my vow” could also mean a) he joined the rebellion hoping he wouldn’t be valued more than anyone, hoping they had cleaner hands than the empire.
b) He wants to clarify to Luthen that this is NOT him flipping-because if Luthen gets a whiff of mutiny, Lonnie is a dead man.
If Lonnie leaves the rebellion, he _must_ flip. He's working for the Empire. He can't walk away from that job, nor can he shirk it. Either he works fully against the rebellion or he works for the rebellion as their mole. Luthern would know this...he would not be able to allow Lonnie to live.
no - it IS a spoiler ... in that Loni turns out to be an inside man that the rebels have been "cultivating for years"
He's so useful that they allow a team of 50 rebel fighters to fall into an imperial trap and die ... rather than call them off, which would have caused the Empire to look extremely closely at their own staff - which means Loni
It's a spoiler, but I dont think it's a huge one that will alter the story for people. It's not on the same scale as talking about character deaths and what that starts, nor choices a character makes and it's repurcussions on the world.
It's more a spoiler that reveals characters' motivations and worldviews.
Andor is a great show and great rundeon of the dialog! I would love more stuff like this!
Great video!!
Luthen imho was just saying the obvious. If the ISB discovers there is a mole, Lonnie would be dead and his daughter wouldn't have a father.
So he says that from a protective position, like if he cared personally for Lonnie's daughter.
Of course, both Luthen and Lonnie know Luthen would probably get him first.
to be fair, it wasn't luthen's fault that the separatist pilot got caught and the attackers didn't do their due diligence
Is Luthen a Jedi? Are his ghosts Force Ghosts? 15 years ago, when the Jedi Temple fell.
Following the prequels, we can say that at this moment there is only one force ghost.
I don’t think that at this point Luthen is feeling fear. Worry, yes…but fear he likely has abandoned.
And that worry possibly isn’t personal but purely operational.
Luthen likely has submitted to his chosen purpose entirely.
The answer is yes. And that is why Andor is so brilliant. It is an honest portrayal of the reality of resistance movements
I'm in a similar boat as Steve. The original trilogy of Star Wars is great, but I personally do not hold it up on a pedestal quite like some fans. The OT tells an amazing story, but is brought down by some of the light-hearted campiness that pervades George Lucas' work. When I think of an oppressive tyrannical facistic government and the struggle of the common man to overthrow this system that invades every aspect of your life, Andor nailed it to a T. Whether it's scenes in the ISB, scenes on Ferrix, scenes with Andor or scenes with Mon Mothma, the suffocating presence of the empire is real and it is FELT.
I’m thinking he’s a former Republic/Imperial officer who committed genocide under orders. Maybe Order 66. Can’t help but wonder if guilt is his driving motivation.
revolutions aren't started by normal people, but the extremists, the idealogues, the audacious. and andor showed every single one.
Plus Kreegyr.
Wondering what the rest of Stephens tshirt says...... Hannah??🤔🤭 ...... ☺️ xx
im not watching this video because i know he never says the quote in the thumbnail. I regret that i have to comment this.
U 2 killed the gravitas of the speech by constantly interrupting it.
Andor is a piece of art and anyone who says otherwise is willfully shooting themselves in the foot. SW isn't a genre, it’s a universe and many different genres, themes, characters, and stories have yet to be discovered in that universe. If someone wants the 'feel' of the old movies there is good news, the old movies still exist, so literally go watch them again. As horrendous as some of the Last Jedi was I have grown to appreciate that Rian was also trying to make something new, his execution in some of that 'newness' was very questionable but the stuff that worked really worked. This misguided unconscious consensus of SW fans that we need to ‘recapture’ those feelings from the first films has led to an over saturation of bad SW trying to live up to something it shouldn’t even need to. Every SW project doesn’t need the same themes, characters, and feeling as the OG trilogy, that'd get repetitive and very boring. Most new projects have virtually become parodies of the source material where nothing is left but references cameos, and generic mic-drop lines that fit in any situation. I love Andor not just because it is full of heart, nuance, and complex storytelling in a thematically dark setting but also because of what it represents: innovation of SW and a new hope that future SW projects don't have to be self referential, sloppily written, poorly executed, mass produced projects rather than pieces of art that stand on their own merit. Disneys and the fans problem has been thinking that SW is a genre and everything must fit into very confined rules. If someone thinks Andor is too boring they need to consider spending less time feeding their dopamine receptors with stuff like Tik Tok and take the time to pay attention to what’s happening between action sequences. They’ll realize that that there is a lot of nuance and character work happening, it is a masterclass of writing and direction. If someone thinks Andor doesn't feel like SW they need to reframe how they understand the IP, it is not a genre of itself. The themes, characters, settings, sounds, textures, virtually everything is straight out of the Lucas doctrine and what story he was trying to tell. If someone thinks it stands shoulder to shoulder on equal footing as Obi Wan, Ahsoka, or Boba Fett they need to try and summarize one of those shows and try to summarize Andor, the difficulty to do so for Andor succinctly is indicative of the complex level of detail and care. Andor is lightyears ahead of those shows in virtually every cinema or storytelling criteria. Anyone who loves this show should be promoting it and recommending it to everyone they know. Systems either change or die and there is only one way out of this SW slump of bad media.
Good stuff guys!!!!
Break down more 🔥
Oh, we will be. We love storytelling and working out why it's working.
Yeah, it’s a spoiler, you gave away the mole!