Joe, this is my philosophy as well. It's a drum kit in a room. Going down the rabbit hole staring at leaves instead admiring the trees. Maybe too many metaphors but still true. Yes, save some time and get a good scratch mix (or rough mix, static etc.), with some high and low passing will get most 80% there.
If you’re not a drummer, this is great advice. However, if you are a drummer who’s mixing real drums, take some time with notch EQs to become familiar with what frequencies go with which noises. After a while, you’ll be able to use surgical EQing as you would a drum key or a muffler. Compression can be used to either kill ring or enhance it. And always be aware of phase issues. One change affects everything else, as the drum set isn’t one instrument, but several played in concert. It takes a lot of time and trial-and-error, but eventually you’ll finally get the sound you’ve been hearing in your head instead of, no offense, what the mix engineer is willing to settle for.
My mistake always used to be chasing a sound instead of making the recorded tracks the best version of themselves. It took me a while to realize that if the raw tracks weren't already sounding pretty darn close to that ideal, that problem was baked-in. It's really a variation of that old saying, "To sound like Bonham, first you must play like Bonham!"
Joe, you are really professional, smart and knowledgable. Still with all respect due, instead of telling us everything we can do wrong, just explain what a person needs to correctly do to Mic the drums. For those of us that have Attention Deficit, (we) (I) start to glaze over when I am told about all the wrong things I could do with Mics, etc.. I lose my ability to concentrate as I am told don't do this and don't do that. My focus is set for hearing what to "do" and not what to "not do". Or maybe at the end of video you could explain the Don'ts.
Good video! I use a Roland kit that uses 8 line outs. Since the outputs are independent of each other outside of tom & cymbal groups, would you eq 1st or would you still rely on your initial question and use the sound of the mix (i.e., comp. 1st if it sounds good)?
heres how i do it: play EVERY aspect of the drums, kick, snare, cymbals in ONE drumtrack. yes all on ONE track named "drums". THEN i slather that with all the audio effects i need, especially reverb is a great thing to contort and destroy a mix and then.... well then i listen to the muffled confusing audible garbage i assembled, delete it all and internally scream "NEVER AGAIN!" ;) ;) ;) so your stuff is as always most welcome.
Don't forget to experiment with flipping the polarity of one of either the OH's, kick, or snare mics and hear if you can get a slightly better sounding kick drum. You should do this as you're getting your overall kit balance together. Sometimes you might lose a little bit of the snare, but if the tradeoff means a better kick, you can usually get back anything you've lost with the snare by eq on the snare, or using parallel processing on the snare.
@@romodrummer Not everyone is going to have a "Fat" mic track to work with, but just about everyone will have OH's. I'm just surprised he didn't even mention flipping the polarity at all because he has in the past.
Yes this here. This approach is consistent with everything this channel is about and I wish others would know about it. Easy to understand and most importantly why you make these moves. Don't over think with a static mix then top down recording with compression and eq.
Mixing drums is my favorite part of the mix but I almost never have any luck with top down. With me, even with awesome quality there's always at least one element that doesn't like one or more moves on the drum bus.
Coming from a professional drum engineer who has engineered drums for artists from nearly every continent with over a decade of experience: Horrible tip. The mud and compression fry in what you are doing here hurts me. You should be sculpting individual mics before the bus processing starts. Shit, you should be doing it before you press record, on both outboard gear and plugins. There should be no (actively intrusive) plugin on your drum bus until your basic drum mix sounds good. What you're doing is like mastering a track before you mix it. Dumb and horrible idea that will have you making bad decisions on your individual track adjustments. Your first, second, and third concern should be before tracking even starts. You want to first make sure that before you press record that you like the raw sound. Most of your time should be spent placing/tuning new skins and adjusting mics. Once that is solved you set levels then rough in some basic processing: filters/EQ, gates, and compression for each mic. Hardware and/or software, doesn't matter. Get your drum mix started: Sculpt each of these to a solid rough foundation and blend their levels. THEN set a drum bus glue compressor and get recording. Though I prefer a few stages of various parallel compression on my drum busses. If your sounds when you start tracking don't have a fantastic semi polish to where you can hear that final sound peaking through then you're going in more or less blind and are hoping to get what you want later. Bad plan. By the time you finish tracking the first song you should be even more fine tuned on your drum mix. Have the final sound in mind from day one of tracking, not down the road, and make it happen then and there to the best of your ability. When the drummer comes back to the control room after his first track and hears playback he should be blown away by the sound of his drums already. You speak of efficiency, but if you already have a nearly final sound before you even start editing: THAT'S efficiency. Mix on the fly, I always say. Even if you aren't the final mixer, you can see the potential of your track and can be confident in your product. Also the clients hear how good it can sound and they equate YOU to that. If the mixer butchers the track guess who they are coming back to. You.
Great vid, but one question: How are you pushing the individual tracks well above 0db without clipping? I make sure to leave about -6db headroom on the individual tracks, but I know there's no way I could push these to sound this good without clipping the master bus... Thanks for everything Joe. I'm learning something new with every vid.
Don't try this, it's horrible advice. Just be more limiting in your approach. You shouldn't need more than 1-2 plugins on each drum mic to get a fantastic sound. With some DAWs the built in channel options alone are enough. Don't stack plugins because you still don't like the sound. I would recommend using just a single channel strip on each track and learning how to mix based on the individual needs of each mic. If you can't get something that sounds great with just that, then you either have more to learn about EQ/compression/gates and need to think more critically about what you're actually doing or you need to fix the source by making tuning/mic adjustments.
Top down mixing isn't really my thing. So often, something you want to cut on one drum mic, you want to boost on another. A perfect example is overheads and toms. Most times, cymbals sound really harsh between 4 and 5K, so you cut there. Toms without those same frequencies, lack definition. I use a comp on my drum buss and no EQ. I use an aggressive comp and lots of boom and fizz on my crush. I run them to a drum master and have a limiter there just doing 1 or 2DB keeping things in line. Basicly all of my EQ is done on the track. The key to great sounding drums is cut what sounds bad, boost what sounds amazing and compress kick and snare at the track level. Maybe comp your overheads to catch the snare if you want more of the close mic. Copress a little on your buss, a ton on your crush and blend to taste. But the number 1 thing, above any plugins, whether you're doing top down or bottom up, get it correct at the source. Record the best sounding drums you can. With the best heads and tuning for the style. With the right muffling, or often none at all if you chose your heads and tuned propperly. Get the best phaise you can between mics. Point the mics at the correct part of the drum. More ring, point it toward the edge, more attack and shorter sustain, point toward the middle. Don't have your snare mic half facing the hats. Head selection, tuning and mic placement will get you way further than any plugin on the buss or the track. Be an engineer and get a great sound with faders at 0. Then just make it better with processing.
Why why why don't more mix tutorials talk about getting a good sound at THE SoURCE!! I am so glad he said that. That's like 80% of the issues you have. If you have a good sound at the source you barley have to touch it. Also adding eq compression and even mixing in samples will be sssooo much easier and you need subtle touches if the source is good. Drums are difficult. They have all the range (20-20k) and also the room and player make a huge difference. Also phase will kill a drum mix. Make sure you are in phase. Good in depth tutorial.
I remember I was told that you can't a great mix without Eq-ing. This was after i heard Warren Huart mentioned that having a balanced mix and using less processing. I was clown on for mentioning that. I've learn to listen to the pros instead the chuckleheads who comment. That's for the confirmation.
Yup. The top-down approach. Plus, this will ensure cohesion within the drums and will make it easier for all the other elements. Since the FATHEAD was mentioned, I've seen it used as a room mic for drums. But remember, if it sounds good and gives you great results, that's all that matters =]
Joe, this is my philosophy as well. It's a drum kit in a room. Going down the rabbit hole staring at leaves instead admiring the trees. Maybe too many metaphors but still true. Yes, save some time and get a good scratch mix (or rough mix, static etc.), with some high and low passing will get most 80% there.
If you’re not a drummer, this is great advice. However, if you are a drummer who’s mixing real drums, take some time with notch EQs to become familiar with what frequencies go with which noises. After a while, you’ll be able to use surgical EQing as you would a drum key or a muffler. Compression can be used to either kill ring or enhance it. And always be aware of phase issues. One change affects everything else, as the drum set isn’t one instrument, but several played in concert.
It takes a lot of time and trial-and-error, but eventually you’ll finally get the sound you’ve been hearing in your head instead of, no offense, what the mix engineer is willing to settle for.
My mistake always used to be chasing a sound instead of making the recorded tracks the best version of themselves. It took me a while to realize that if the raw tracks weren't already sounding pretty darn close to that ideal, that problem was baked-in.
It's really a variation of that old saying, "To sound like Bonham, first you must play like Bonham!"
i can relate to that one
Great video!!!!! Thanks for sharing.
Joe, you are really professional, smart and knowledgable. Still with all respect due, instead of telling us everything we can do wrong, just explain what a person needs to correctly do to Mic the drums. For those of us that have Attention Deficit, (we) (I) start to glaze over when I am told about all the wrong things I could do with Mics, etc.. I lose my ability to concentrate as I am told don't do this and don't do that. My focus is set for hearing what to "do" and not what to "not do". Or maybe at the end of video you could explain the Don'ts.
Good video! I use a Roland kit that uses 8 line outs. Since the outputs are independent of each other outside of tom & cymbal groups, would you eq 1st or would you still rely on your initial question and use the sound of the mix (i.e., comp. 1st if it sounds good)?
heres how i do it: play EVERY aspect of the drums, kick, snare, cymbals in ONE drumtrack. yes all on ONE track named "drums".
THEN i slather that with all the audio effects i need, especially reverb is a great thing to contort and destroy a mix and then....
well then i listen to the muffled confusing audible garbage i assembled, delete it all and internally scream "NEVER AGAIN!" ;) ;) ;)
so your stuff is as always most welcome.
Gracias, saludos desde México!
That Fat mic sounds killer Joe.
Don't forget to experiment with flipping the polarity of one of either the OH's, kick, or snare mics and hear if you can get a slightly better sounding kick drum. You should do this as you're getting your overall kit balance together. Sometimes you might lose a little bit of the snare, but if the tradeoff means a better kick, you can usually get back anything you've lost with the snare by eq on the snare, or using parallel processing on the snare.
He already did that on the "Fat" mic. See the green button bellow the input knob, thats the phase/polarity button.
@@romodrummer Not everyone is going to have a "Fat" mic track to work with, but just about everyone will have OH's. I'm just surprised he didn't even mention flipping the polarity at all because he has in the past.
really cool! i'm just starting to mix some of my recently recorded music out of curiosity - and this is SO HELPFUL! Thanks so much!!
Yes this here. This approach is consistent with everything this channel is about and I wish others would know about it. Easy to understand and most importantly why you make these moves. Don't over think with a static mix then top down recording with compression and eq.
Mixing drums is my favorite part of the mix but I almost never have any luck with top down. With me, even with awesome quality there's always at least one element that doesn't like one or more moves on the drum bus.
Hey Joe, I never received the 5-step email, after i signed up. Thanks
Coming from a professional drum engineer who has engineered drums for artists from nearly every continent with over a decade of experience:
Horrible tip. The mud and compression fry in what you are doing here hurts me.
You should be sculpting individual mics before the bus processing starts. Shit, you should be doing it before you press record, on both outboard gear and plugins. There should be no (actively intrusive) plugin on your drum bus until your basic drum mix sounds good.
What you're doing is like mastering a track before you mix it. Dumb and horrible idea that will have you making bad decisions on your individual track adjustments.
Your first, second, and third concern should be before tracking even starts. You want to first make sure that before you press record that you like the raw sound. Most of your time should be spent placing/tuning new skins and adjusting mics. Once that is solved you set levels then rough in some basic processing: filters/EQ, gates, and compression for each mic. Hardware and/or software, doesn't matter.
Get your drum mix started: Sculpt each of these to a solid rough foundation and blend their levels.
THEN set a drum bus glue compressor and get recording.
Though I prefer a few stages of various parallel compression on my drum busses.
If your sounds when you start tracking don't have a fantastic semi polish to where you can hear that final sound peaking through then you're going in more or less blind and are hoping to get what you want later. Bad plan.
By the time you finish tracking the first song you should be even more fine tuned on your drum mix. Have the final sound in mind from day one of tracking, not down the road, and make it happen then and there to the best of your ability. When the drummer comes back to the control room after his first track and hears playback he should be blown away by the sound of his drums already.
You speak of efficiency, but if you already have a nearly final sound before you even start editing: THAT'S efficiency.
Mix on the fly, I always say.
Even if you aren't the final mixer, you can see the potential of your track and can be confident in your product. Also the clients hear how good it can sound and they equate YOU to that. If the mixer butchers the track guess who they are coming back to.
You.
Great vid, but one question: How are you pushing the individual tracks well above 0db without clipping? I make sure to leave about -6db headroom on the individual tracks, but I know there's no way I could push these to sound this good without clipping the master bus...
Thanks for everything Joe. I'm learning something new with every vid.
He monitors with a K system meter set to 20dB headroom
@@AldeanLeger Thanks!
@@ericp8256 he did a video called k system for dummies a while back
Watching you master fader,have you got a base level for headroom you aim for?like -6?(always feel I’m driving the master from the snare type thing)
Other question is,overheads in an untreated room ,any suggestions on smoothing that out(as I can tell your overheads sound super smooth)
Grea vid Joe, I never seem to get the drums how I like them , I am probably guilt of over cooking them with plugins :D I'll try out this method.
Don't try this, it's horrible advice. Just be more limiting in your approach.
You shouldn't need more than 1-2 plugins on each drum mic to get a fantastic sound. With some DAWs the built in channel options alone are enough.
Don't stack plugins because you still don't like the sound.
I would recommend using just a single channel strip on each track and learning how to mix based on the individual needs of each mic.
If you can't get something that sounds great with just that, then you either have more to learn about EQ/compression/gates and need to think more critically about what you're actually doing or you need to fix the source by making tuning/mic adjustments.
Top down mixing isn't really my thing. So often, something you want to cut on one drum mic, you want to boost on another. A perfect example is overheads and toms. Most times, cymbals sound really harsh between 4 and 5K, so you cut there. Toms without those same frequencies, lack definition. I use a comp on my drum buss and no EQ. I use an aggressive comp and lots of boom and fizz on my crush. I run them to a drum master and have a limiter there just doing 1 or 2DB keeping things in line. Basicly all of my EQ is done on the track. The key to great sounding drums is cut what sounds bad, boost what sounds amazing and compress kick and snare at the track level. Maybe comp your overheads to catch the snare if you want more of the close mic. Copress a little on your buss, a ton on your crush and blend to taste. But the number 1 thing, above any plugins, whether you're doing top down or bottom up, get it correct at the source. Record the best sounding drums you can. With the best heads and tuning for the style. With the right muffling, or often none at all if you chose your heads and tuned propperly. Get the best phaise you can between mics. Point the mics at the correct part of the drum. More ring, point it toward the edge, more attack and shorter sustain, point toward the middle. Don't have your snare mic half facing the hats. Head selection, tuning and mic placement will get you way further than any plugin on the buss or the track. Be an engineer and get a great sound with faders at 0. Then just make it better with processing.
Why why why don't more mix tutorials talk about getting a good sound at THE SoURCE!! I am so glad he said that. That's like 80% of the issues you have. If you have a good sound at the source you barley have to touch it. Also adding eq compression and even mixing in samples will be sssooo much easier and you need subtle touches if the source is good. Drums are difficult. They have all the range (20-20k) and also the room and player make a huge difference. Also phase will kill a drum mix. Make sure you are in phase. Good in depth tutorial.
How about phase??? That has to be done on individual tracks
That G# on the kick kills me but great video (hope the song isn't on G or A!)
I remember I was told that you can't a great mix without Eq-ing. This was after i heard Warren Huart mentioned that having a balanced mix and using less processing. I was clown on for mentioning that. I've learn to listen to the pros instead the chuckleheads who comment. That's for the confirmation.
Why do you pan the toms so wide.? In a standard mix would'nt that get in the way of guitars?
not really because the toms are short transient sounds that should cut easily through the guitars.
Yup. The top-down approach. Plus, this will ensure cohesion within the drums and will make it easier for all the other elements.
Since the FATHEAD was mentioned, I've seen it used as a room mic for drums. But remember, if it sounds good and gives you great results, that's all that matters =]