Is This Study the Death of Protein Timing? | Educational Video | Biolayne
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- Опубліковано 14 чер 2024
- Link for protein study:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38118...
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When I hear the term protein distribution my brain just imagines a kid on a bicycle throwing steaks at people's front doors
😆😆
Thanks for the laugh, good one Kelly.
I never cared for, nor followed the 25g cap. Im not going to eat 7 meals just fo get 150g of protein.
Yeah, I'm just going to eat one meal to get the 150g.
So true. It is so crazty to think that the body doesn't absorb more than 30g protein per meal and that it just becomes fat. I think this was research used to sell more protein powders which coincidentally are around 30g per scoop. So much for thousands of years of evolution!!
@@qbb01nobody said it just becomes fat. Only in a calorie surplus. If you’re writhing maintenance level it’s just calories without the amino absorption
@@Rocchio753 Many many many people said it becomes oxidised and turns to fat.
Anyway, the breakdown of proteins from a steak will take couple of hours, maybe 8 hours, so you wouldn't really have to split through 7 meals I assume.
Has there been any research into the timespan over which you can average your nutrient intake? I've seen a lot of people reference research that indicates that, for example, eating 4000 calories one day and 2000 the next is effectively the same as eating 3000 calories each day. But what is the size of the time window over which you can average? Intuitively, it doesn't make sense to me that eating 14000 calories one day a week and none the rest would produce the same results as eating 2000 calories each day. This idea also applies to the topic of this video. If we accept that 4 50g protein meals has the same effect as 1 200g protein meal in a day, at what point does this break down? Would the body treat 200g protein intake in one day and none the next the same way as 100g of protein each day?
Great question
I have heard people taking about the same. I would counter that theory with the carb cycling for weight cutting. Also there is evidence that sleep is (in a laymen’s description) a reset of digestion, metabolism and so forth. With that I would argue your body can’t do a “weekly “ or multiple day average and it or equivalent. Within a day on the other hand it would seem way more probable.
Until you know, use logic. If you're lifting weights and care about your body composition, it should be smart to replenish what's being used during workouts at least as often as you work out so you get it in between emptying storages of glycogen.
Let's keep focusing on carbs: Let's say you're at maintenance and start your experiment today. Your glycogen storages are quite full. If you ate carbs for your next 4 days, when you're planning to work out every day, you will not have nearly 400% of stored glycogen. The 300% over your capacities will be metabolized differently. In studies, you can see that it's normal to use ~ 20-35% of glycogen in the muscles, but there are also studies that show that you perform better the closer you are to full glycogen storages. If you're doing an upper-lower or any high frequency split, your second training of every muscle will be impaired by emptier glycogen storages.
If you do that for a long enough time and eat the same amount, you will have worse results because half of your trainings suffer unnecessarily compared to if you ate your daily requirements daily. That's because of the training, and don't forget that you will store most of anything above what can be used in that short time frame or stored as glycogen will be stored as fat every 4th day when you overeat.
= Fatter and less muscle gain/maintenance, the further you are away from optimal.
@@TheFuzzle1 well said
Probably would matter less if we had a crop or chewed a cud. In humans it seems we have to do different, as we dont
Damn it! I knew it too! I used to just get lazy and protein load in one post workout shake with 80g of protein. Then the distribution hypothesis came out and everyone and their doctors talked about it (and still are), so I started taking my protein separately. But it's also harder to try to fit into multiple loads especially when we got a job and need to be doing things, and carrying unwashed shaker bottles is also gross.
Better late than never I guess. Also, what a cool study. We need more studies repeating this.
I can already hear Dr. Layman's point about casein in this study. Great to have your take on the study, Layne!
I've been waiting for your breakdown of this study. Great video and your interpretation makes a lot of sense.
Another great 'putting things in perspective ' video!
Great video Layne. Really appreciate your insight.
Thanks, Layne! Great Information!
Super happy to see this discussion
I like this measured approach mixing the science with practicality. If your lifestyle makes it hard for you to eat often, then eat a lot of protein in one sitting. If your gut can’t handle a lot of protein all at once, or you are training multiple times a day, keep meals smaller. All and all you aren’t going to get a big muscle synthesis difference with either approach, it’s more about what fits your life and allows for best adherence. Thanks for the video.
Awesome study! Thank you
Greetings!
Just listened to the Huberman lab podcast you were on. The podcast was insightful, informative, and useful.
Thank you!
Now i can go all out with OMAD, maxing out my protein in one meal, without any worries about timing.
Thanks.
Timing meh absorption and gut health! Gorging on 3k cal in 30 mins once a day is a terrible idea
what's omad
@@l337z0rOne Meal A Day
@@l337z0r O.M.A.D. = One Meal A Day
@@l337z0r One Meal A Day
Just ordered your book Doc. Looking forward to it.
REPS is surprisingly good. I'm really glad I subscribed.
Very good explanation and take on this study. And I was thinking the same thing for follow up studies I'd like to see!
Lost 15 lbs fat and increased strength counting macros in a the past 3 months 💪
Good presentation 👍👍
Informative video ♥
Great video, I watched most videos from your mentor Don Layman and got an impression that most of the time when he talks about increased protein synthesis from protein intake patterns he does not take into account the increased protein synthetis response that is observed following resistance training (which can last up to 48-72 hours - and at least 12-24)...
So I always wondered whether that variable changes some things about protein intake distribution patterns (I had an intuitive reasoning that it does)... And now you explained this study and tied it together in a way that the whole thing makes much more sense... Great work from both you and your mentors! :D
Thanks, Layne!
Amazing paper, amazing video!
Makes sense building muscle. Regarding getting lean while minimizing muscle loss while in a calorie deficit, my clinical experience, including the factor of hunger management, is that it is better to distribute feedings and protein throughout the day.
why you eating 300g protein a day that's crazy
Great video 🙌
I couldn’t really wait to hear Layne’s take on this study.
Same - probably the best summary of this study on UA-cam
Great video Doc! Was confused how to reconcile the known MPS limit with the observation that those on restricted window diets (especially OMADs) could show similar muscle growth to higher frequency diets. Any further breakdowns on future papers of this topic would be greatly appreciated.
Been waiting for this video since I read the study.
Really cool stuff. I kept thinking what you said later in the video where might a cut off be between 25 and 100 (if any). I’ve always personally defaulted to getting at least 40 grams in a sitting based on some of your previous material about how much protein it would take to get that 3ish leucine based on the food type. Not to mention to get enough total protein in for the day I would never eat enough meals to get there at a smaller amount.
Great video Layne. I am a huge fan of all health science and watching your channel has drastically improved my life. Now I'm a total layman, I have no professional training in literally anything to do with science but man sometimes these studies really bother me. Why would we do a study on protein synthesis on untrained individuals if it is the case that just the simple fact of these people being untrained could muddy the results of this study so drastically? I'm sure the answer is probably budget constraints but my following question would be why not just wait for more funding? And if that's not how that works (again I know nothing) then I feel like it should've been known going into this study that doing it on untrained individuals doesn't apply to the science based lifters who would actually care about the study? I hope I was able to get my point across. No hate, I'm just stupid and these things bother me.
You're not stupid at all. It's been a while since I've been in the field and never was a professional, but usually it's hard to get volunteers for these studies, so you work with who you get or you don't get any data. A good example is the study he referenced in the video with people laying down for 12 hours. Not many people would do this and there's only so much you can usually pay them per study.
Thanks - Great info
Amazing and informative video
Thanks! Very useful
What if the group that took 25 grams of protein took those 25 grams of protein on three more occasions during that 12 hour period so that both groups took 100 grams in total. Would the degree of muscle protein synthesis be the same for both groups ?
The 100 grams protein group spread out in 4 25 gram servings will have better protein synthesis along with stable continuous positive Nitrogen levels
Good True Info! U da Man.
Thanks Doc. Been waiting for this video since Thomas Delauer video yesterday. I used to do OMAD then went to 3 meals but I sometimes miss that first meal with my busy schedule. Should I go back to eating 2 100g protein feedings in a 6-8 hour. I’m slightly detrained dealing with shoulder problems but want to recomp from 23% to 15%.
We already kinda knew this from all the systematic reviews showing that when protein intake is adequate, the distribution seems to make little difference. Still, it's great to see this study confirming my bias ;) and I love the fact that they used intrinsically marked milk protein, which is a clever way to get "real world" FSR data. Lastly, not stimulating mTOR as much might be better for longevity, so potentially two meals per day to balance physique/longevity ...? So many possibilities.
Thanks Dr. 🎉
How significant is the post workout aspect of this study? Would the same type of effect be noticed on a rest day?
Lots of love mate, but your mic was kinda screwed in this vid
Ive been waiting for you to weight in!
This was a great sturdy, I like that distribution goes from a must have to an optimization tool. I think that if you are trying to be a body builder, you probably would benefit from spreading it out. I know that if I eat protein in large bulk, I simply stay satiated for much longer as opposed to if I only eat 30g per meal. I know that if I eat a dozen wings, I'm pretty full for a long while. But If I eat 4 wings, and have some salad, I'm hungry again in less than an hour.
Thanks for this explanation👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Great video, thank you. You gotta fix that audio, man.
thanks for being quick with this study. kinobody quickly jumped on this bandwagon
😮 this reseach is so cool!
Layne I've been wondering are you actually running any studies yourself atm or plan to in the future?
One of NOT many channels that's unbiased, just facts
This makes things a lot easier on those rare occasions where I know I'll have a day with limited protein sources available. Though I'd still try to space protein timings at least twice. also, 100 gr of protein is pretty uncomfortable to get into your system in one go... even if it's liquid.
Layne I am running PH3 rn. (3rd run)
My favorite program!
Interesting video 👍
Thank you
That is a bomb of a paper. Good for you to challenge your belief.
I have felt for myself this for a long time. I resistance train hard for over 6 years and during the time I have tested various protein and meal timing regimens.
These did not appear to matter so much that I could separate signal from noise - keeping total protein per day constant.
It would be cool to see a paper one day of similar quality comparing different protein sources. I bet casein is the key to have benefit stuffing 100g in with one meal.
Doing the same with whey would probably be a waste of good powder.
Eating a large chunk of meat probably digests quite some time as well.
yeah but having a somewhat even distribution keeps my stomach and energy levels at an even keel. I generally shoot for 1 gram per pound of body weight and when I do I feel great but if I go to 1.5 grams I feel awful. I've been doing this for over 40 years and have complete blood panels done every year and my doctor says everything is absolutely optimal.
great video
great vid
Thank you for this video, Dr.Layne. All you're points are valid in response to this paper and eye-opening. I would like to add a point, what if the sum of MPS from protein distribution outweighs the effect of a single dose of 100g? In other words, 100g of protein (high quality) might spike MPS more than 25g. However, the effect of multiple doses of 25g/day, summed up, would outweigh that of the higher single dose.
This is still my take away, as well...what really matters is total MPS over the course of a day. At 3:55, it does look like 100g would cause more total MPS than 4x25g spaced over the same interval. But, the gold standard for protein intake for people concerned with MPS is usually 1g/pound per day, evenly between meals. Using that, the protein intake in the study only makes sense for a 100lb person...which doesn't fit many people concerned with MPS. Would the same MPS ratio have held at 200g total intake vs 4x50g or 5x40g? I don't think there's a way to tell from the study itself, and that's a question I'd need answered before I could incorporate this info into my training program. I really wish the study had included higher intake values. As it is, I think this is very interesting, and hope it can be investigated further, but I'm skeptical to act on it until then.
@@user-fn1cd6mo9zThey used one person in their study? lol. His excuse was it was too difficult to get more people. lol. Ya gotta love these ‘New Research Studies.’ 🙄
@@TravisMcGee151Layne said multiple subjects so not just one, also love how you marginalize the fact that these subjects are not only getting their blood drawn multiple times but also getting multiple tissue biopsies done as if that’s something everyone jumps at the chance to do 🤦🏻♂️
You said "significantly greater" but the text I found in the study says "myofibrillar protein synthesis rates were ∼20% higher during the early 0- to 4-h period". So that's a bit of a diminishing return. 4x the protein for a 20% bonus.
You also pointed out that 25 is low and 50 would be a more fair comparison. Fully agree here, I think its safe to assume there would be almost no difference between 50 and 100.
From the study: "In line with this, myofibrillar protein synthesis rates were only 20% higher during the early 0-to 4-h period but 40% higher during the subsequent 4- to 12- h period"
In other words the synthesis is prolonged with a higher protein bolus.
Definately wish they wouldve done 40 or 50 grams.
What i got from the study is if I crush a challenging resistance training session I would change that scoop of protein to 2 scoops.
Im definately a fan of some 60g protein meals when Im recovering aswell
A famous bodybuilder of the 70, Serge Nubret was known for his atypical bodybuilding diet with only 3 meals with 8 eggs for breakfast and dinner /lunch with 3-4 pounds of horse meat, he was one of the best bodybuilder in terms of physical appearance (225 lbs), that meals very rich in proteins in one sitting did not prevent him from having massive protein synthesis, other bodybuilders of this era using classic multiple small protein intakes over 5 to 6 meals.
This team of researchers needs maybe to compare 2 groups of natural good level athlete , with same type of protein (classic beef protein steak/eggs) and same quantity, for example one group with 5 meal of 30 g of distributed around the training and other group with one post workout meal with 5x30=150g, to evaluate protein synthesis over 12 hours after training in both cases.
One of the weaknesses of their study is that they do not compare the intake of the same overall quantity of protein over the day, we can imagine that 100g spread over 4 meals including one with 25g of protein after the training session could perhaps have given a different stimulation of overall protein synthesis over the day.
Another element that must be taken into account is the "splanchnic sequestration" of amino acids (sequestration can occur in the intestine or liver), depending on the age of the participants in the experiments, which in the case of older subject shows a blunted anabolic response of muscle to dietary intake which could be related to a decreased systemic availability of amino acids, this splanchnic sequestration should be saturated by an increase in protein intake that could explain better stimulation of protein synthesis in some case.
Surge was a genetic freak, like Paul Dillett, who hardly eat at all..
Another concern is there’s also more calories. It’s basically a 10% surplus
I am happy to see that a perfectly even split is not required. I eat ~50g of protein in the morning, 100 after training, 50-100 4 hours after my post-workout & 30-50g before bed. i always thought it was suboptimal, but at 10pm i donˋt want to cook more than 2-4 eggs and quark xD
Hi Layne..just came across your channel and really enjoy the content. As an engineer, I totally agree with the concept of energy balance, but I do wonder if the way we track and measure the the energy content of food really matches the way the bio-chemistry in the body extracts it. My understanding is food Kcal's are measured by bomb caliometery which seems very different than human metabolism. Could you do a video on this topic sometime? Thx
Idk who’s correct but Bart Kay has commented on this a lot
This is great information. Enjoy your discussions here and on a few other channels as a guest. I do about a 15/9 fast/feed with two larger meals and one medium. I'm only looking for homeostasis at ideal weight and muscle mass (165-170 lb). Doing a mix of plant-based proteins with 3-4 oz of fish almost daily. Hitting about 40 g a meal mix of Soy, bean/pea, rice and fish protein. Over the last month I added 2g leucine in my AM plant-based protein shake and 3-5 g creatine. Feel really pumped and gained a few lbs likely from creatine. This study seems to suggest I will be fine with the 15 hours of fasting. I'll eat most protein a few hours before bed including the only animal-based source and low fat dinners so mostly protein, fiber and whole food carbs (lower carb veggies and beans). I've found recently that eating most fat early in the day from nuts/seeds keeps it from storage. I had the nut butter addiction as a snack after dinner and could literally gain a few lbs over a long weekend from eating that before bed. It is not efficient to turn cabs from a bowl of beans/lentils or butternut squash into stored fat.
As a Postdoc I love this type of content. Very informative and great to go into the theories on some of the results (first vid I’ve seen on this channel but loved Don and Peter’s talk so YT recommended this vid).
Satiety and bloating are ameliorated from spreading it out through the day too
I would love to see distribution vs digestion time of a protein... Meaning will 100g of beef protein taking multiple hours to digest vs 50g of whey isolate in 2 feeding times equate to the same thing?
Hi layne could you do an in depth video on dietary cholesterol intake and long term health markers?
If you do it on REPS I will buy it just to see the breakdown
dietary cholesterol is good for you
And saturated fat which is probably more important than diet cholesterol although they are highly correlated. It has been established over and over that saturated fat increases LDL and risk of heart disease.
"When you do a challenging resistance training session". Shouldn't a resistance training session always be challenging if you are looking to build muscle, no matter how advanced you are?
Well at least you came around at the end of the video. One thing to keep in mind, along the lines of your comment about how our ancestors got protein is that almost all natural sources of copious amounts of protein are slow digesting because they are accompanied by fat. Even things like chicken which we normally think of as lean, actually come with a lot of fat when consuming the whole animal. I'm happy to see research backing this up but most of us already knew you could benefit from larger protein boluses in one sitting when it came from natural foods.
Thanks
Being consistent lifting is the most important thing.
I probably understood 5% of what you were saying. But what i will take away is consume protien all throughout the day. Cheers Doc!
Haha 😂 same here
Frank Zane himself told me timing after workout does really matter. It's the before workout intake that really matters. I have always followed that and it's worked pretty well.
I think that for most people the biggest issue with ingesting large quantities of protein in a single meal is digestive issues. Unless someone has progressively conditioned themselves over time to increase their tolerance, you are likely to have gastrointestinal distress from massive protein intake in a short time duration.
Sure, but below 50 grams/portion it seems fine.
When I heard about this study I also was like I wish they did 0g 50g 100g dosages as imo 25g in a meal is a bit low but still interesting
My problem is finding the specific numbers, i always hear "distribute protein" and "protein synthesis takes longer/shorter" but never any numbers. If i were to distribute, how long per grams of protein would i have to wait before eating more protein, if it true that if youre new to training and you can eat more protein, then what would that number be instead? General terms makes it difficult to apply and the info on this topic varies so much that its hard to trust someones info.
4:33 yeah, having one lump sum of protein seems to correspond better with human physiology where, in the past we would usually only get one good meal per day if that
LOVE IT 😁😁😁😁
It sounds like this study did not compare spread out protein meals versus one. For instance, in the interval after the first meal during which they were monitoring, they could also have given 100g split into multiple meals. That would have served to compare timing, and taken dose out as a confounder.
The study was measuring the ceilings of MPS from single doses of protein, not the timings. The purpose was to see if you are wasting any of that shake with 4 scoops of protein.
I do 31g protein shake post workout around 4:30 AM, then a big meal with 100g protein at noon, and Greek yogurt anywhere from 38 to 60 grams around 3 PM every day. Weight is 185 lbs, so I get my 0.8 g per lb body weight
One reason why I think the fitness industry would be resistant to the idea of getting most of your protein in one or two boluses is because the supplement industry banks on the inconvenience of having to time meals for optimal protein intake. By making protein shakes or amino acid supplements, which makes the ingestion of protein at specific intervals more convenient, this industry had a scientific justification for the their products to exist. If a person can make full use of 100 grams of protein in one sitting, say with eating 12 oz of chicken breast, there would be no need to buy their expensive protein powders.
People are seriously overthinking this so much its disgusting.
The fact it is mostly casein than lactoserum and that the anabolic response was way higher in the late postpandrial phase (4-12h) than the early one (0-4h) makes me think about going for 50g protein shake after workout, but no more than that. However, the next decision I would make is to train earlier, before the lunch meal. With caffeine and decent body warmup I've never seen a performance difference between training around 11am vs 7pm.
I try to eat 50-60g per meal for 5 meals, so between 250-300 per day at 112kg. Am i wasting my time eating that much per meal, is only 25-30g as much as i should bother eating at a time?
Ive always taken issue at the 30g max as they always seem to use whey protein shakes.
Id be extemely surpised if complete meals didnt behave differently and 3 meals of 50grams and 5 meals of 30grams had the same area under the graph.
As this used milk protein which is majority casein, this study is closer to being a protein source from a complete and whole source rather than protein isolates.
Alan Aragon has said that his study is pretty meaningless when it comes to real term results, he talks about it on the Mark Bell podcast in length.
There are so many limiters on digestion of whole foods that eating 2x100g meals of steak or chicken are likely to be exactly the same as whey 8x a day for anyone not prepping for their Mr O show
FOOORRR THE ALGORITHM 🤝🏾
I try to split my protein as evenly as I reasonably can (usually breakfast - lunch - post workout - dinner and maybe some dairy before bed), but no way in hell I am optimizing my distribution so it fits the Schoenfeld & Aragon formula or even worse the 20-25 gr range. For example I usually aim for 180-190 grams a day and my dinner is usually some sort of meat + veggies + maybe some carbs for around 80 gr total.
I guess I could theoretically split my dinner into two meals (like dinner + late night meal before sleep) or build a different meal plan but can't be arsed to be honest. I guess it would make sense if you're swinging for the fences but I don't feel like I am leaving much gains on the table if any
The Aragon formula is 4 meals with even distribution of 2.2 g/kg optimal bodyweight...even 3 meals are ok...and Stu Phillips would school him that beyond 1.6 it's pure speculation.
@@ondrej1893 I was referring to their 2018 meta-analysis where they suggested that the MPS cap per meal is 0.55 grams per kg of bodyweight. I routinely go two times above that during dinner or lunch when having 4 meals (if not 5) so in theory that would mean I am "wasting" like 40-50 grams of protein that I could distribute and use more productively elsewhere, like breakfast for example when I usually eat like 20-25 gr. However I don't think it makes an iota of difference and is not worth stressing about
I just realized I know nothing about "fast" abdorbing and "slow" abdorbing proteins aside from Whey and Casein
But that’s nothing new for real. A lot of researchers like Israetel or Schoenfeld and many others suggested 50 to 70 grams or even more for more trained or muscular / bigger ppl cause it wouldn’t make sense to have the same cap for every bodytype
Best results I've ever gotten was eating all my protein in 1 meal while doing IF.
In 4 months I got nearly all my beginner gains -- people accused me of juicing.
So, is someone who did a lot of cardio for decades, then started lifting 8 months ago considered a well-trained person, or a beginner? I ask because it's easier for me to be on a deficit when I do intermittent fasting but also want to maximize my protein synthesis.
Please do a video on how the body prioritizes the different amino acids in protein uptake. What I understand the amino acids fights for getting priority. That’s what people say when you take a single amino acid you should take it on an empty stomach so it get prioritized.
Also would be great if you could explain what some people say about protein powder in liquid like drinking whey. Some say you can only take up around 20g because the uptake time is slower than the liquid to pass through the system.
The one thing I don't understand about this debated is why I haven't heard anything about the size of the individual. It doesn't seem to make sense that I at 6'3 215lbs would synthesize at the same rate as someone who is 5'6 130lbs. It would also seem that the more muscle mass one has, the more they would be able to synthesize. Am I misunderstanding the fundamental concept here?
Anyway, it seems the classic eating pattern of breakfast+lunch+dinner is near optimal even for bodybuilding, even though experts would prefer 4 feedings. And you can even do that in shortened window if you want to achieve calorie deficit without counting calories.
What about supplimenting the whey with BCAA to help accomodate for the time delays of casein in the whey?
Whey is loaded in BCAAs so that's probably a waste of money. Also the amount of casein in whey products is negligible anyway.
I’m lactose intollerant, can you comment on the potency of pea protein ?
3:49 they get paid good money to lay there, so I don’t see that being a problem
Layne, is there any benefit to protein that is consumed with fats or protein that is consumed with carbs? Is the protein better synthesized in anyway?
When protein is taken with fats. The fats will slow down the digestion and uptake of the protein in your body.
A good time to take advantage of this is right before bed. This way you get the slow release and repair to your muscles. Being that 6-8 hours your not gonna be eating anything, you wanna keep your body in an anabolic state.
Taking protein with carbs is good right after you train/workout. Protein taken with carbs will speed up digestion and improved uptake to the muscles to start the repair process sooner and faster.
Well, Well, Well, I guess there isn't a defined protein load cap for MPS.
When it comes down to it, if you are training and eating enough protein you will see results.