New Study: Can You Build Muscle at Maintenance | Educational Video | Biolayne
Вставка
- Опубліковано 26 вер 2023
- Citation: assets.researchsquare.com/fil...
Get my research review REPS:
biolayne.com/REPS
Get my new nutrition coaching app, Carbon Diet Coach: onelink.to/9h4d62
My research based supplements: www.outworknutrition.com
Get my books on how to lose fat: www.biolaynestore.com
Take my online course "The Science of Nutrition": chfi.click/laynenorton_online
Get Custom Workouts by me for $12.99/month:
biolayne.com/workout-builder/
/ laynenorton
/ biolayne
/ biolayne
This reminds me of the protein intake conversation, where 1g/lbs or 2.2g/kg was the big thing and now we're seeing 1.4-1.6g/kg has similar or equal results. I think there's a trend right now showing the body kind of wants us to succeed and really it has never been as complicated as we would've liked to think.
Side note: would love to see you do a workout with Renaissance Periodization!
Not just a workout but a whole scientific conversation would be dope
would love to see just how low protein g/kg can go, but supplement and protein companies won't like that
@@sacahsin Definitely would love to see it, there's a realllly old video on Jeff Nippard's channel with both of them. Search "The Volume Roundtable" if you're interested
@@kamo7293 From my research mine is around 70g but I don’t think that accounts for higher lean body mass. Im a taller dude too so that number is lower for average person.
This would be a great video! A work out video with a scientific conversation after?!
So much quality information, I'm so glad to have found your channel. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you for this video Layne!
The commentary in the last five minutes or so was the best part. Super helpful, thanks!
Really intersting and perfect timing as I was on the fence of either staying on maintenance, switching to a calorie surplus to gain, or opt for reverse dieting. Many thanks for sharing Layne.
Such a great video Layne 👏
I love that you acknowledge previously teaching debunked methods as you gained new knowledge. This is what it’s all about, real knowledge evolves. It is not static. I’ve been following you for a while, thanks for being a harbinger of truth in the fitness space 💪🏾
It's crazy how complicated muscle building is. I know some boys who work on a farm and they're buff and lean.. don't eat for muscle. don't do anything special. Just functional adaptive muscle built over throwing hay eating whatever mama cooked that day lol.
I know for a fact you don’t know their diet sleep patterns and food quality/ types of calories, because how could you?
@@red2432 well.. I know a gist of it considering they’re my friends lol. I’ve know them for most of my life and I’m 36 and clearly I’ve spent weekends with them growing up. I’m not sure how you wouldn’t factor that in before leaving a comment?
I learned that the hard way. Back in the 70s and 80s, we used to bulk up waaay too much in the off season. I would go from 230-250 lbs and cut to 198 on stage. Now at 64, I have a lot of loose skin. Beyond that, it just wasn't healthy; my triglycerides would get into the high 300s, and it's really hard on the body and psyche to diet that hard.
100% agreed. I just cut from 265 to 230 shredded to the bone and although I did it in 6 brutal weeks it wasn't worth the suffering and endless amounts of cardio just to wind up as lean as I was before the bulk with my lifts and muscle mass roughly the same. Ultra-lean, ultra-slow bulking gaining roughly 5-10 pounds over the course of a year is the way to go....especially when you're an advanced trainee.
Yep! Now I go no heavier than 10 kilos from my stage weight
this is completely fascinating. thanks for sharing.
I think it’s important for us to know that we can “run out” of body fat to lose after we “recomp” at a given weight for long enough. Then our only way to gain lean mass is to gain weight overall.
That is fixed by aiming to re-comp not by weight but bodyfat %. Meaning you aim to be the the same body fat (not too lean) year-round and your weight will go up slowly. Technically it's a very small surplus.
Yeah, i think the body refuses to recomp at certain level of leanness. I would guess for majority 12-15% depending on genetics and age. At this bodyfat the body prefers to keep the body fat rather to build new muscle. At 30% the body wants to get rid of the body fat anyway, so recomp is possible even on deficit.
I switched to carnivore diet, dropped 8kg/17.6lbs total weight but gained a crazy 1.4kg/3lbs of skeletal muscles in the same time. I think a lot of that isn’t even from surplus or deficit but just from Insulin sensitivity change, cortisol change and decrease In inflammation.
This is a great study and very encouraging for us older physique competitors. Thanks to Layne for bringing this forward!
Really needed to hear this. Loads of value as always. I defo need to measure my body fat percentage, cus the weight scale is only telling me half the picture. Was debating on staying on this cut, cus I'm still hitting PR's and lost 15lb of fat or whether to just go into a bull now. I like the idea of shorter phases and the fact it could just be a 5% surplus as a minimum.
That was helpful - thanks for the video!
For myself after years of lifting, I tested and realised that maintenance after a cut for 3-4 months will give me good gains. Then I’d plateau and had to increase to a surplus of 100 - 150 cals.. this little change would boost my strength for like three weeks and muscle would grow even more. But as soon as I add 100 more, though there was strength and muscle gain, fat gain came along forcing a cut period.
I would say for my body at least:
Surplus is needed only during plateaus… the challenge is to find new maintenance when old maintenance turns into deficit.
My story is almost identical to yours! One thing you might want to try is cycling creatine. On a deload week and the next lifting cycle just go off it completely then when you go back on after the following deload week go back on it. Only when you plateau of course. For me it extended the time before I needed to up the surplus calories by months! Hope it helps if you try it
I’ve been using Carbon for 3 weeks & I’m seeing great (which means slow & steady) progress on losing weight. I like it a lot & hope it keeps growing! Thx !
as usual, top notch information
Please keep us informed on new research on this, Layne. This is a really important topic, because if surplus is indeed unnecessary, it would allow us to avoid fat gain through unnecessary surplus (also cheaper and easier to not have to eat more food than necessary).
Great video. Another point about the sample size is that many people assume that the necessary number of data points in a well-controlled study needed to observe a statistically significant difference is larger than it actually is. It's often assumed (it seems) that people assume you automatically need hundreds of people to study, but often the needed number is in the lower double digits for a sufficiently powered study.
Of course Dr. Norton had to be in a caloric surplus to go from 140 to 210 pounds. Most of us who are no longer teenagers are not looking to put on 70 lbs. So it will be interesting to see how the research shakes out for those who are looking to be more lean but not gain weight. In the past I managed to (slowly) gain muscle and lose fat without changing body weight, but it took a while! Hoping I can do the same now, because the cutting never seems to get easier.
This is gonna make a great video for Greg
What ive found over the years. When aiming for maintenance, I'll usually end up in a very slight surplus. This tends to be where notice the best improvements.
I'm so glad you did this video. You have helped me to recommit to my lean bulk.
YES YOU CAN . I am a amateur body builder. I am at maintenance 2000 Calories. High protein I am 60 years old.. I'm mentally trying harder at maintenance and my numbers aren't proven either by weight or reps. I have the body of a 30 year old and no, i'm not on drugs..
You are so helpful . Thank you....;) 🙏
Ive listened to some podcasts in the past with a couple natural bodybuilders talking about bulking and cutting phases. They stressed the importance of keeping the surplus/deficit fairly low (5-10%), and to make yhose phases 6-12 months. Not the 6-12 weeks that most programs say.
I typically do 18-24 week long phases, and that's when I've had the most success.
heck yeah, RP just did a video on optimal deficits to maintain strength too. Pincer attack style, I will use both methods at different stages
Good post appreciate it
Muscle = longevity = ability to soak up higher calories (bigger meals, more food, glucose, insulin) with no adverse effects. Just keep the deficits and surpluses to a minimum and take your time. You dont want to go into old age with no muscle and high body fat % on a stack of pills and easy to break bones.
I actually want to be a participant in a study!! Do you have any suggestions on how to participate/find studies looking for people Layne? Thanks for the video btw!🙏🏼🙌🏼👏🏼
There he is. Gains is calling.
Thank you 😊
I just did my first cut after about 5 months of working out. I actually gained 1 rep each time I worked the muscle group during that time. I thought I would have lost strength and went down but consistently gained the 1 rep. Then when I got off my cut, I am gaining 2 extra reps each workout. I made sure to eat a lot of protein, at least 1 gram a lbs of body weight.
Thank you for this. In my experience, I just have more energy and am more confident with the basic lifts when I'm at a slight surplus. When I'm at maintenance, I can push but don't feel as strong. It could be psychological. I'm not sure why but what I know is it works. Anyway as long as the surplus is controlled and I don't go completely off the rails I gain relatively little fat and am beach ready 4 weeks into a cut.
Keep up the great content.
I've done 3 bulks so far, but the last two were really too short, just 2 or 3 months each, because (A) I wasn't super lean at the start, and (B) I didn't even track calories, and I gained weight fast - so I just got fat too quickly and felt like cutting again. At least my cuts have been quick and efficient. But this next time, I'm gonna cut to a more shredded state, and then track my calories on the next bulk to make it a lot longer and more gradual. Might try a real small surplus like 5-10%, so I can enjoy my lean physique for a long time while still having potential for some gains.
Thanks Lane
Thank you
The app is really great
In my opinion, it's impossible to equate all the other variables that have an impact on performance. You may have consumed 5% more calories (good luck with being that precise), but your sleep was much better or much worse that day, you weren't fully focused during the descent of the movement, or even same days you feel less strong without explanation, or you have accumulated to much fatigue, or you have decreased your volume recently and you have detrained. It's impossible to track to that level.
Agreed, I’m not saying to pig out and eat any and everything in sight but maintain a decent surplus and stop obsessing over the abs and far gain. All this 5% talk is just contributing to the problem a lot of people are having these days and that is suffering from body dysmorphia. I think it is important to break people out of the habit of staying shredded as it makes no sense fi those of us who do want to gain muscle mass. They could never do another study for all I care because we already know the facts. Maintain a decent deficit, sleep well, hydrate and progressively overload. No need to over complicate things.
The way I look at it is you can build muscle recomping (aka maintenance) bulking AND even cutting - long term, bulking will be the most beneficial for gaining muscle (however you will also gain the most fat) recomping you will still gain but at a much slower rate, and cutting you will gain but only very minimal amounts and for a certain period of time (unless you’re an overweight beginner)
A lot of people just can't come to grips with the fact that good results take a lot of time to arrive. Prolonged bulks are insanely effective, I myself have gone from 155 lbs to 225 lbs in a little over 4 years, the strength and size gains have been unreal. On a month to month average, that's less than 1.5 lbs a month, which is almost unnoticeable unless you track your weight closely. The time is arriving soon for me to do my first cut, and I dont plan to lose more than 1lb/week.
I did a similar thing in less time. I went from about 170 to 205 in 6 months. Finally back to 170 and my strength and size are ridiculous imo. You'll probably not even recognize yourself
Layne, do you think the Cortisol to DHEA-S ratio is a potential detrimental impairment of muscle building?
So Coach Greg has kinda been right all along. Nice!
I would definitely be interested in participating in similar studies. I haven’t been available in the past but my schedule is a little more flexible now. How do you find about such studies so that one can volunteer?
I think bulk with between 10-15% surplus it's the way to go if you are under 20% body fat, if you are a guy, 30% if you are women, the strength gains and the feeling of bulking its so good. Also you raise your metabolism and its easier to cut later on
Couldn’t agree more.
On top of that we are fed fairytales on social media of full-time fitness athletes who are usually enhanced) promoting some kind of product that is supposed to transform your body in six weeks.
I'm currently doing OMAD 2300cal max. Mike Mentzer H.I.T. heavy duty training is fantastic for natty's like myself.
Do you also think the Earth is flat?
I’m currently on a cut, I’m using the carbon diet coach app my weekly average for one week was 1KG lost and the same occurred for the next week and I didn’t even realise it, my strength gains increased or stayed stagnant from time to time. Now I’m bumping my calories back to lose a pound a week. We definitely need more studies on this
In a surplus u just get more nutrients overall so that could lead to more gains. I believe as long as u eat over maintenance, u will build muscle. However, going maintenance is difficult because some days u eat over and some days less. You really can’t tell. That’s why bulking with around 300calories plus just kinda ensures that your always over maintenance. What do u think?
Way I see it, if you're progressing in your lifts, adaptations are occurring and you're growing. Once you plateau in most of your lifts, add a slight calorie deficit and go from there.
The study shows what I have experienced, but I would add that its also a function of body fat percentage, I am around 20% body fat so I am in a "surplus" just sustaining that kind of high body fat, if a guy is single digit or even 10-12% most likely being at maintenance wont be enough and a surplus will be needed in order to increase muscle mass.
great vid
So it's best to ignore absolutes and train/diet in consideration of body fat, history, ambition, therapeutic goals, etc?
This kind of stuff is interesting to think about. As someone who's primary focus fitness wise atm is becoming a more adequate runner but I'd also like to lose about 20-25lbs. I was concerned especially when I got started about being in a deficit if that would impede muscle gain in the relevant areas which of course would slow my progress. I knew that losing weight would making running easier in it's own way. But it's nice to know I don't have to stress myself out if I'm losing weight it's unlikely to hurt my progress I can still gain strength even in a calorie deficit.
These studies are always flawed and another will be out in 3 months saying the opposite. I would just stick with the facts. You are going to lose some muscle in a calorie deficit over time. You will lose strength when you lose muscle. The aim when in the deficit is to minimize the muscle loss to fat loss ratio. That being said .... Your not gonna lose a lot of muscle unless you start losing like 4+ pounds a week.
You only can gain some muscle and strength in caloric deficit if :
1. You are a beginner
2. You are obese (+30% bodyfat)
3. You use steroids
4. You have exceptionally good genetics
If none of the above applies to you, you should watch the video again and pay more attention: "If you chase two rabbits, usually you catch none"
Lean tissue, yes. Strength? Unlikely
Almost all studies dealing with exercise sciences are at the bare minimum with sample size, also genetics are never taken into account. A study showed thar exercise results are something like 80% determined by genetics. There are a million confounders, like sleep, stress levels, blood markers, etc. I do agree with this study though. I do think you need to go through a time where you eat a surplus but not a large surplus. I think people naturally are basically in surplus.
I think it all depends on the person. Like hard gainers probably would benefit most from a caloric surplus whereas those with a higher tendency to gain fat may want to re-comp with maintenance or slightly over maintenance. Wondering, those that were in a deficit who lost muscle despite they're resistance training and protein intake, how high was they're protein intake and how much body fat did they have? I remember Dr. Bill Campbelle saying that women tend to not lose much muscle with higher caloric deficits while being resistance training and consuming higher protein as he's seen men do.
Be in a nutrient surplus, get your sleep, you’ll grow. Look for the best foods you can afford. Quality is key
Do you think metabolic adaptation would be in effect if you’re not increasing enough?
Yes we can all recomp - as the common man not the extreme as in professionals
*Great thought process* You can't gain 30lbs of muscle by maintaining. With that said, in theory you could gain muscle at maintenance since you can maintain a positive MPS balance. But as you said, the best natural bodybuilders didn't recomp their way there.
They didn't get there with excessive adiposity either.
We simply have no data to suggest the best body builders couldn't have gotten there in a true maintenance adjusted over time because it has never been considered viable in the first place.
And frankly using "the best body builders" as a metric for the overwhelming majority of people who want to build some muscle is fucking absurd to begin with 😅
I mean, by definition you have to a be in a surplus of some kind to gain weight at the same BF%, you starting at 140 and getting 210 would've been impossible without some sort of a surplus. The real question is how much of a surplus is ideal and even for how long should it be ran before dieting which we probably can never get a definitive answer for, as well as how which BF% you're starting at plays into this. If you got fully defined abs and a lot of leg vascularity a surplus is obviously more useful than someone with even just a flat stomach but mild muscle definition and separation.
My best guess about energy balance comes from my Polar V2 watch and every now and then attempting to count what gets stuffed into my mouth (surprisingly close in my case).
Metrology background hints me that at best the repeatability can be +/- 5 %. Uncertainty is much more loose.
Adding 5% energy surplus short term (like a month) for regular people is delusion. Over a long period, say half a year, sure - you can statistically dial it in.
A lean person's strength def decreases in deficit. Personally getting 5 % reduction in weight reduces absolute str about the same amount. The effect is similar to not taking creatine.
I'm from New Zealand where this study was conducted 😊 FOR THE ALGORITHM!
Would be good to see the macro break down of their deficit.
If you still had 2 gram of protein for every kilo of ideal body weight, and 200+carbs.... and 500cal deficit.... would be good to see if that works more than a normal low calorie diet
This video made my day!!! I am sick to death of eating in a surplus now!! I want to eat at maintenance but i still want to make progress. If this study is true i can drop a meal a day and hopefully lose a bit of body fat at the same time! 💪🏻 i cant sleep at night 😂😂
I’m curious to know what the workout was and how each individual performed each rep
Instead of "muscle gaining phases" (usually done as bulks) followed by "fat loss phases" (usually known as cuts), I'd do a "lean bulk" followed by a "recomp."
It depends on your bodyfat level. If your calorie intake is keeping you very lean, maintenance calories will not be enough to grow muscle. If you already have fat to lose, you don’t need a surplus on top of that.
If you are 140lbs trying to get to 200lbs, as you build muscle, your maintenance calorie level will keep increasing. So, you could build muscle at maintenance, but you will need to keep adjusting what maintenance is as you get bigger. Or you could try eating for the weight you want to be and when you get there, that level of calories will become maintenance.
If you are gaining muscle and NOT losing fat, are you really at maintenance?
Spokenlike a guy who has never been jacked and impressive. "In theory"
@@Gilamang You would need to burn existing fat and put that energy towards building muscle. If you are already very lean and have little spare fat to burn, you would need more calorie intake to build muscle.
Obviously, someone trying to grow from 140lbs to 200lbs will need to increase calories over time since maintenance calories for 140lbs isn’t going to support gaining 60 lbs of new muscle.
If you are weigh 200lbs, but have 60 lbs of excess fat, you don’t need to add more calories above maintenance to burn fat and build muscle.
Are there any studies that look at fasting as a way to do overall calorie control while otherwise eating in a surplus to gain muscle?
I'm not very good at tracking, out of laziness, but what I mostly do is eat in a slight surplus through the week, but every week or two I do a 24 or 36 hour fast. It seems to work really well so far.
As an example, if you are eating 2000 calories a day. Over a 7 day period you eat 14000 calories. If you fast one day that would drop 2000 calories, but if you eat 14000 over the other 6 days you can eat a shade over 2300 a day for the other 6 days for building. You could even shoot for about 2150 on the 6 days so that you overall are in a deficit but are building lean tissue the vast majority of the time.
I haven't seen any studies that attempt something like this protocol for overall muscle gain and fat loss. It seems to be working for me though.
been doing a "re-comp" with calisthenics for a long time now. my body looks way different.
i focused on getting better at pullups, dips and pistols. my body got stronger, leaner and it def looks like i have more muscle.
same weight of 195 pounds, just a lot less fluffy
Nice work!
very nice video ,
But the thing in this study is just saying that the subjects were at maintenance is not enough. Because you could maintain at 30% body fat and you could maintain at 10%. And I don't have solid evidence here but I think maintaining your body weight at higher BF% will probably be better at gaining muscle than maintaining at a lower BF%. I could even argue that maintaining at higher BF% is at least similar compared to being on a surplus but starting from a lower BF%. Just my 2 cents
Does Dr. Layne have a podcast?
What about a small deficit (sub 500 kcal) versus maintenance if you're trying to lose fat?
If you chase 2 rabbits, you'll probably catch none, that line literally just changed my life
Im barely in a surplus. And gained 7 pounds of muscle in a few years between shows. And im a natural guy also. Lifting for 15 years
I think I'd be ok with the downsides of being a study subject if I got to train with Eric Helms.
I'm curious as to why women that gained muscle (lean mass) still had a reduced BMR; I thought that was determined by lean body mass?
House building was an analogy an old time bodybuilder in the 70's use to preach to us kids working out. "You can't build a house without enough lumber, but if you stack too much lumber it gets in the way of erecting the walls".
I think the trick is eating as little as possible to maintain gym progression; if im getting stronger, why would i eat more food and get fatter?
Youll naturally titrate up to a surplus as progress diminishes
The problem with having a very small surplus is the fact that in order for you to even track that surplus you have to count every calorie and since we all know that the labels can be off by as much as 20% having only 20% of a surplus means that you could possibly be at or below maintenance and not be in a surplus at allthe safer approach to make sure that you’re not wasting your time is in fact to have somewhere between 507 150 cal surplus. I would rather be sure that I’m gaining muscle then spend two months just to find out that I wasn’t eating enough.
Would maintenance be good for recomp if you have a surplus of girth?
So the science is backing up Greg doucette we only need a small surplus close to maintenance to build muscle for normal lifters maingain does work⭕️💪🏻
Then there was me back in 2021 at 135lbs eating 4k cals per day, all tracked and weighed gaining 0.5lbs per week.
My BMR was something like 2200.
Crazy.
Let’s be honest with ourselves here people… the vast majority of us shouldn’t be in a surplus
To build muscle you should, unless you're a fat ass that is.
Yup. For most people, a very very slight surplus is okay. Maybe 100-200. But if you aren’t a natural competitor, there is zero reason to bulk big. The amount of muscle you’ll build adding that much weight will be lost when you spend 3 months in a deficit and your hormones tank.
@@AZ-gs6hj just do tren
Well said!
Bad advice dude.
I screwed my "bulk" up this summer. I slacked in the gym (cut my volume bc it was summer) and ate in a slight calorie surplus. Dexa scan showed I gained 10 lbs of fat and only like .8 or .9 of lean mass. So here I am back in a deficit trying to lose that extra fat, and increasing my volume in the gym. It's a marathon not a sprint, right?
Where do I go to sign up for your workout program
I've been doing body recomposition for the last two and a half years. I'm now seventy years old. I started at 89 kilos (aprox.) and a lot of fat and not very much muscle. Things have changed; 74 kilos, and rather muscular for my age (175 cm of height). I do weight training (not very heavy) six days a week, for a bit over one hour and a half each day. All this is necessary to state the context for my question (in the last line) I've been tracking calories and proteins with great accuracy during all this time, with less than once or twice a month of calories estimation instead of precise measurement (because of not eating at home). And now, just now, I could assert with some confidence (and a lot of graphs) that my maintenance intake is around 2450 kilocalories per day, at about 2 grams of protein for kilo of weight.
So, how can you determine what are your maintenance needs? I mean, not you specifically, nor me; I mean the average watcher.
The most reliable way of determining maintenance needs is to measure your weight daily for 1-2 weeks, taken the average. Then to eat at a specific calorie amount for another week or 2 while continuing to weigh yourself daily then take the average.
If weight goes up, you're above maintenance. If weight goes down, you're bellow maintenance. If weight remains neutral, you're at maintenance.
Try to not let the science bog you down and confuse you out of doing things that work and make sense. This whole thing is really very simple.
@@IsaacMorgan98 Ok. That's a workable definition. Luckily, as I have over 900 days of continuous data (due to my scientifically minded attitude), I can test said proposal.
Important to note that the calories OUT is the other half of that equation, not just the IN. So I would go further and say to ensure you are doing similar levels of activity for said weeks of testing to be as accurate as possible
Just weigh yourself daily and adjust as you go.
Well done btw, but sounds like you were cutting and not recomping? (89 to 74kg)
@@jeetkd09, there's the gimmick: I did recompose. I started fat (not obese, just overweight) and weak, and now I'm lean and rather strong, though I still have some fattish tissue around the navel (family trait). I've increased the size of shoulders, arms, thighs and glutes by a measurable amount. I only work chest and back just a bit, say for aesthetics, because I tend to be of the barrel chest type (another genetic trait).
Ok, by a strict definition, it was not recomposition; but that would be a useless definition because, who wants to weight any particular numerical figure? Most of us, interested in exercise and nutrition, want a better body, not a cipher on the scale; not me anyways.
Maingain more than last time!
The secret everyone needs to hear starts at 8:41 Layne lays it down bruh!
love this shit
Can you please do a What the Fitness on UA-camr Goatis?
FTA! 😘
Sidebar: Curious if researchers would get bigger subject pools for studies if they met people when and where they workout instead of doing things when it’s convenient for the researchers.
Guys, it only applies if you are around 20% bf. Otherwise you would see a way more progress being in a surplus. During a 3 month bulk I have gained more muscle mass than in a year of maintaining
I think we can at least conclude that the difference isnt large, so if I do my next bulk at 5% i doubt ill be leaving a lot of gains on the table.
How much surplus for the algorithm to gain?
Very nice gym
You gotta increase the audio volume of your videos. I'm on full volume with my headphones and I can't hear you properly if I'm in a busy area. Or even in an uber. 😅
For the rithmalgo but please increase the audio volume next time
Can you really accurately measure your calories to that level of precision? It's not like you know the exact value of your maintenance calories.