What makes a book good? (and why is it representation?)
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
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Music: Who's Afraid of Halloween by Alfred Grupstra from Pixabay
Hi Olly. I love that you are talking about representation. I studied with another English teacher early in my career as a teacher, and she was the first person to talk about the curriculum that we taught as needing to function as both "window and mirror," and I have always applied this metaphor to books that I read and books that I taught. I want to read books that allow me to look through a window into the experience of others. I want to see other people's experiences in my reading, other worlds, if you will. I want to enter into the experiences of others through my reading. But I also want to read books that mirror my experience to some degree. I want to see my world reflected in what I read. I don't want to feel totally excluded from the world of the book. So, to me, both are absolutely essential. I have a great example of something that happened to me recently in a re-read of Joyce's Ulysses with a group here on BookTube. I don't want to go on too long here in your comments, but I'll find a way to share it with you.
Window and mirror is a great phrase!
When I was young, I rolled my eyes at my sister’s romance novels. It turns out I just needed someone to hand me a romance with two men. Suddenly I understood the appeal of the genre. 🌈
This is a wonderful story and I am very happy to have read it. It made me smile! Thank you!
Love this!
You are very correct. Setting and representation can definitely make a book more or even less appealing to certain audiences. Even though I was born in 1984 I have always had a strong affinity to the 70’s and early 80’s. I could read a book set in 2024 and if I read the same story written or set in 1976 I would just inherently enjoy it more only for that reason alone. I think I have heard you say before that Americans often don’t care about other parts of the world and as far as I’m concerned again you are correct. That’s not to say I don’t have a desire to travel or learn about other parts of the world but in books, movies, TV shows, etc. I prefer them to have an American setting. I just love the overindulgence of the American culture and living all of my almost 40 years here in the states it’s what I know so reading books set here is just familiar and if set in the past can be sentimental for the way things were at that time. As a straight man I am also less inclined to read a book about a homosexual character but not dead set against it. Again though, for me had the same story been written about a straight guy I would enjoy it more. It’s great in this day and age we have so much to choose from and an endless number of vintage reads to rediscover as well!
Yeah it does feel like now more than ever we have a broad range of people represented positively in books. I'm a sucker for 70s and 80s set stuff too!
I think mostly the people who say representation shouldn't matter are always represented. At one point in my life I gave up on horror / thriller because it seemed a woman was typically portrayed as either a helpless victim or a simple foil to the main male characters. I find them more enjoyable with better representation with a new generation of writers, no matter their gender.
Very true. The biggest pushback against representation comes from men who are the standard template of the white male, it seems. Just look at the UA-cam channels that whinge about representation or diversity on a regular basis. They are people who are always represented in mainstream media.
Yeah, exactly that! It doesn't matter to them because they don't even notice it
Your comment about you’re “more likely to enjoy a book if you’re represented in it” is really thought provoking. I’m seeing this right now in the fan base of Star Wars and the MCU. The recent series of Star Wars The Acolyte I thought was really fantastic and interesting - but it hardly featured any straight white males. And it got a ton of hate thrown at it, and it seemed that the ones who really enjoyed it were the people who were being represented in the series. And of course I see this in the MCU too.
Also as a straight white man, I think it’s good when we use our “white privilege” to speak up for those marginalized groups. I hope that doesn’t sound condescending or like I’m having a “white savior” complex. But I think it’s good when we can say “Yes listen to these people and their stories!” And help bring attention to them.
I’ve really appreciated some of your recent videos and how you’ve very thoughtfully have dealt with some big issues. It might lose you a handful of subscribers but you’re using your voice for good.
Thanks Art. I try to talk about this kind of thing gently. A lot of people don’t want to hear it at all, but I think if you go about it in the right way people are receptive. I think the problem with fandoms like that is that a lot of people (straight white make people) grew up on those things and have come to expect them to be a certain way. The problem is that they were always getting more than their fair share, when it came to popular entertainment (and everything else)
Good video as always Olly. Regarding the issue of representation my take is that i don't see myself necessarily represented by other straight white males. We might have those attributes in common but they aren't important, to me at least. I have probably got very little in common with many other straight white males. I might resonate with the experiences of a woman in a book, or with a child if i'm reading childrens fiction, or someone from another ethic background and so on. Point being that while i understand your take on representation i think there is more beneath the bonnet of these common identity markers. Have a good rest of the bank holiday. Cheers, James.
That's a very good point - sometimes it can be an individual characteristic that we conect with
I'm usually drawn to authors I've read before but do read a variety of genres. I need to be able to relate to the story to call it a favorite. But an all time favorite is Walter Moseley. I love his writing style, his attention to detail and exciting telling of a PI crime story.
I hear you on that one! Mosley is a huge inspiration for me. You should check out Chester Himes if you haven't already. Both those authors had a huge impact on my own 70s-set Duke Gibbs thriller series.
Yeah Himes is great
I love Moseley, especially the Socrates Fortlow books
@@CriminOllyBlog I enjoy his Easy Rawlins series. I'm currently reading the latest in that series called, Farwell Amethystine.
Great food for thought. Personally I like to write stories of people our age because, like you said, we aren’t in a lot of the books we read. 👵🏻 👴🏻 😂😂😂
LOL! Glad you found it interesting, MJ!
When I write, I always try to make sure my characters are never the square-jawed white dude. Even my pulp-homages try to shed light on problems while still being a fun adventure. My aim with the Duke Gibbs thriller series was to create a larger-than-life hero like Jack Reacher, but who is a black man who is living in 1970s America.
The 70s in America were a very turbulent decade, with massive social change rocking the country, which is why I chose it, because it mirrors our current societal issues in so many ways. I wanted Duke to be a character that is in part a homage to the Blaxploitation heroes like Shaft or Truck Turner, while also being his own person, facing the injustice that he would have faced at the time.
I like being able to have real issues in my books, and hope that people will learn new things from them, while also just enjoying the ride.
Book 1 is on my TBR for Sept - looking forward to it!
I respectfully disagree. A 'good book' is one that is well-written.
As an older woman,(old lady, if you will), I only see women of my age in stories as old crones, indulgent grandmothers, or never-married/often married eccentric great-aunts.
I don't see myself in sci-fi, and except for Miss Marple, "older" women detectives are 50-ish. I love how Stephen King writes and will read anything by him. The only woman I can think of near my age is 'Gramma". "Duma Key" is possibly my favorite so far, but no thanks on identifying with Elizabeth.
Such an interesting topic! As someone who reads a fair bit of romance (among other genres) and is over 40, I always find it frustrating how few female main characters over 30 appear in those books. To me, what is most ironic is how a large number of those authors are closer to my age than that of their protagonists. To add another controversial opinion to the discussion, it makes me wonder sometimes if it isn’t because we, as women, have internalized the message that older women aren’t attractive or objects of desire. As another commenter put it, you certainly see enough older men/younger women in romance novels. 😉 I know the point applies more broadly than the specific romance example you raised, and there are more intractable and systemic forms of under representation in literature, but I couldn’t resist sounding off on one of my pet peeves. 😂
Yes, I think that probably is at least part of it.
Good points. Regarding representation I live in a cold snowy environment and really enjoy books that are also set in that same environment and also books that are close to my geographic area.
Am I an exception that I am more interested in reading about people that are different than me and places different than where I grew up? Or am I misunderstanding the point?
Books are such a great opportunity to see inside the head of someone with different life experiences.
I think it's possible for both things to be true. Another commenter used the phrase "a window and a mirror" to describe reading, which I thought was perfect.
@@CriminOllyBlog I like that image.
I certainly sympathize with people who never see people like themselves in literature. I also probably looked for more characters I could easily relate to when I was young and trying to understand myself.
I think that representation is important. Everyone deserves to see themselves represented in fiction, not in every book, but in a book that is for them. There is also the point that some books should be windows, not mirrors. How can that be if the majority are the only ones represented. They are also being deprived of that experience, in a way.
yeah I think the windows/mirrors point is a great one
I'm trying to figure out how this applies to nonfiction. I think setting and genre (and subgenre) are still important. Characters are still important, but possibly in a different way? Sometimes you read a biography of someone who is significant, even if they belong to a different social category than you do.
Well, in general, nonfiction had tended to favour the Great Man or European societies and peoples. As an example, I'm an author, and I have lots of ideas for books and for building a fantasy world. So I wanted to learn about Maori culture and I ordered a book about it online. What arrived in the mail was a pamphlet (less than 50 pages) of information regarding the European settlers and their first contact with the Maori. There was almost nothing about the people themselves, their art, or their culture. All the people named were Europeans, like Captain Cook, and there were only two pictures of Maori people, while the rest were of white colonialists. This pamphlet cost me twenty bucks, and felt like an old museum pamphlet from the 70s, where what mattered was the white people that "discovered" the Maori, and not the Maori people themselves. So, I think how it most applies to nonfiction, is to tell the story from different sides, to include the people who are generally overlooked or ignored historically, and to stop looking at history through a lens that is inherently western-themed. Does that make sense? Feel free to disagree!
I've honestly read so little non-fic that I'd find it hard to comment. As Jethro has said though, I think balance and telling all parts of the story are really important
@@jethrowegener Oh definitely. When I said that sometimes you read about people who are significant, I didn't mean that the marginalized shouldn't be centered. They should be. Historical studies have been shifting in that direction, thank goodness. I guess I was thinking that sometimes you have to read about the villains as well as the heroes. I have a biography of Jefferson Davis I'd like to get to when I read civil war books. It doesn't glorify him. He was a villain, but an important one.
@@CriminOllyBlog It's definitely important to tell marginalized stories. I just know that I've had to read about a bunch of bad white people doing things it's difficult for me to imagine doing, even though they're significant. Reading about 17th century America burned me out.
I find difficulties with books about business written by men, because as a working woman, the experiences and barriers we experience are often different.
Isn't it usually the guy is in his 50's and the woman is 20? Thanks Olly, great video.
Last night, quite randomly, I ended up watching about five minutes of NASCAR while waiting for the news to come on. Near as I can tell, it's a bunch of brightly colored cars driving around and around an oval track until one of them bursts into flames.
Well that does make it sound quite appealing!
I just go with my gut feeling and 9/10 times, I’m right lol
Fair!
You’re so right! I just finished reading Exalted by Anna Dorn, and I hated the things she said about OCD, and labelling her character with OCD when she was just a bad person. I can’t speak on the BPD rep but people who have it, said she demonised BPD. Two of the most stigmatised disorder’s and she did that. 😭. Representation is so important!!! Epseically with mental health
Definitely agree, and there's a long history of really bad representation of mental health that means it's become baked into some thriller tropes
Couples in their 50's - crikey they just go off ! 🤭 You could make a David Attenborough special about them. Left handers aren't represented in books, it's just nasty, the world hates us. 😉 And you don't watch motorsport? Gosh, what a shock 🤣
LOL!
Left handed people might be good at Nascar, though, with all those left turns.
💚🖤
My current read is _Dead Mile,_ by Jo Furniss. It's been very good, but ...
The setting of this book is London. The everyday dialog used in this book is very England-style English. I'm an American and there's a lot of jargon that I'm not familiar with. It's an exercise in translation. It's a _median_ on the _freeway,_ not a _reservation_ on the _carriageway._ There are a lot of words that need such translation for an American.
It's a minor example of a "representation" issue.
Churchill was right. Brits and Americans are peoples divided by a common language.
I actually like reading non-American English.
Yeah that is definitely a very British feeling book!
I'm a straight white trans man, who for about 2 decades thought I was a bi woman (long story) and I was born physically disabled with vacterl association and neurodivergent (but didn't know that until my 30s) so despite also being a straight white man I grew up not seeing myself in books in many ways. I didn't transition until my 30s. I'm only 35. Year and half on T right now, so i'm new to being seen as a man. ... I've had a weird life lol.
But all that to say I really do get not being seen in media, that was me growing up, not being seen, despite what it looks on my outside now (because fully dressed I look a lot more abled-bodied than I am because invisible disabilities and I don't have trans or neurodivergent stamped on my forehead).
Love the video :) I just tend to throw a lot of things on their head just by existing lol
It does sound like it! Hope you're starting to get some representation in books now
@@CriminOllyBlog I am. Thank you :) Things are definitely better than they used to be!
As I think a out it a good deal of the books are.about and written by white guys ( I one myself) the once that are not are bodice rippers that I read now and than maybe a mystery or three every year. Back before I started going to a mystery book club I would cozy mystery reading streaks now and than and they were always written by women. So it isn't as if I go out of my way to read only male authors but it seems without thinking about it I largely drift towards reading them. That said the one bais I openly admit I have that when it comes to any story be it a novel, a movie or tv show is I am not a fan of an all male cast of characters. It might sound weird but while I can enjoy a story centered around male character with exceptions movies like Stand By Me I just don't enjoy stories without a single female.
I can think of a few all male things I have enjoyed (The Thing is one of my favourite movies for example) but I think a more balanced cast makes things more interesting (eg Alien)