Los subtítulos en español ya vienen! Además para mi gente de habla español, ya pronto me van a poder ver en el canal de Florencia Deffis, una mujer fenomenal que acabo de conocer acá en CDMX y vamos a hablar del abuso narcisista en la pareja. Este fin de semana grabamos el video y la semana próxima lo pueden ver en su canal.
We can divide covert narcissism into three stages: Initially: 1. We do not feel comfortable, yet they are nice so we overlook and move forward. But at this initial stage we need to move backward and reflect. During this stage when we are not with them, we think something is not right and look at the conversations or phases over and over again. 2. Second stage: Now our relationship is established and unknowingly we will be serving them because it is always about them. 3. Stage 3: We realize that our needs are never met. We are drained and cannot serve them anymore. We need air. We feel choked and congested. The bond is so strong....and it feel cannot come out clean. Whatever stage you are in....get out and get some fresh air. NO CONTACT.
Priya Nesan Would Love advice? I keep hearing Coverts are So dangerous?? They say leave carefully and quietly do you know how to sale a home while getting out quietly? How do you get out when your in so much debt in a state where there debts are your debts? I’m trying to get those paid down I can’t ruin my credit where will I live? He knows I’m disabled and he knows we are in debt because he put us 30,000 in debt due to a CC and 2 loans he hid behind my back for 6 years..Yet the man I married would have never done such He Also go this card when we had more than enough money??? He got the card behind my back after I had said we don’t need the credit we have cash and told the banker no Thank you I went home paid off old cards and old late bills! While he went back too the bank and got a 10,000 credit card in his name off of my WC money off of the bank account we had setup with my WC back pay money into bank!! He denied even when the loan officer of the mortgage company said the CC was his for sure He never mentioned the other 2 accounts each adding up too 10,000 until she called back each time for each one I learned about all this from a stranger after I had made a fool of my myself saying it was fraud and him telling me just pay sit. Worry About it! Seriously 😳 pay 10,000 to a card that’s fraudulent?? To this day I’ve not gotten a real apology nor have I gotten anything to put my trust back together in This marriage?? So I’m looking for all the advice I can get your comment sounds great if I just had more information on what he’s gonna do when I say we’re paying these bills off and we’re selling the house and I’m gone?? Specially since he don’t make enough money from his job to even support himself!! So I’m a little afraid to say The least... Looking for answers please thx Shey
I was with my husband for almost 20 years; I had no idea what was going on at the time and it was only after his death 18 months ago, that I started to delve into what had happened over all those years of drama, great highs and more lows. As he aged, and went for counselling, life did get better, but never enough. I kept hoping for the idyllic future. I just thought he was dealing with difficult emotional issues, and started to realise that he was not going to change, so I withdrew and became very bitter toward him. He was a master at projecting a mild-mannered, kind and compassionate exterior but behind closed doors, he would let it all fly. He tried to convince me that I was crazy, and turned everything around, especially if I reacted emotionally to his crazy-making. Over time I lost my ability to look at him with compassion and I hated the angry person I’d become. He was also full of beautiful but empty promises. It was so hard for me to let go of the dream of who I thought he was and what our life was going to be like. Another sad twist is that he became terminally ill, just when I was planning on leaving. But I stayed to take care of him. There were still nasty surprises near his death of financial matters that he did not take care, leaving yet more chaos for me. Fortunately, I was clever enough to save some money, after my trust evaporated, and I always continued working in a very good government job with a pension. I have a good therapist and am devoting my life at the moment to healing. The pain with him was unimaginable. He was an expert liar and I never felt he was authentic with me for one day in his life, even as he was dying...I keep thinking, what a sad waste of a life. Thank you for these wonderful videos.
Wow do I ever relate and feel for you and your story. It's incredible how much damage they can do when no one is looking. Or looking. They even get away with it right in front of people. For instance my brother came to visit my mom and I was out front messing in my canopy unit when he pulled in. She was walking out at the time. but turned around when she saw him and went back into the house. Brother and I exchanged greetings as she was coming towards me with a huge slice of watermelon and an extended arm in my direction saying " it's so hot out here I thought you'd like this". Well just out of his sight line her face told all. The look was "don't ever mess with me because they'll never believe a word you say. I'm a nice mother". Brother watched the whole thing and said "Awwwwww....." smiling. So she won that one hands done. So sutle, so covert, so sick and so debilitating. I'm glad you're working on you and your healing. I'll be doing the same as soon as I get out of here. Working on it daily. Take care.
Valerie Silva He left me saying I would never see him again but it was all under the guise of manipulation. He thought he would be coming back after a week or two. He never thought I would actually take him up on it. He had been threatening me with divorce for many years using the threat as manipulation and intimidation. When he left, I felt nothing but relief and peace. He has tried to come back but I moved out and got my own place as fast as I could while he was gone. I’m now working full time in a school and loving my life once again. I had forgot what it felt like to be happy and I have actually felt guilty for being happy...it’s crazy. I’m on a healing journey. I understand it’s a hard thing to do. I’ve got an excellent support group. I wish you well.
Tracey, good for you! My divorce was final November, 2017 after 37 years together. Two months later I turned 65. Four days before our trial date (married to a covert narc attorney), I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I am just now starting to feel like me and I am happy and content. Do not miss him and rarely think about him. Wish all of you luck. It's not an easy process but so worth it.
My covert ex-husband had a very high intelligence level, close to genius. Very charming, hard-working, evasive, elusive. But when he was very angry, the five-year-old would come out and I began to see something that was very disturbing. He would scream "leave me alone" or "go away" and throw things and slam his fists on the desk, was hysterical over the smallest slight.
The covert-aggressive form of narcissism is almost always a two-step of first covertly attacking you and then denying their attack and framing your -often deliberately provoked- overt reactions or responses as the true aggression Its like someone who whill try to kill you by touching you with a poison. And then if you defend yourself against this very real threat by shoving and punching to keep his lethal poison away he ill cry out in pain and announce publicly to everybody how your reaction was totally unwarranted and proves that it is of course you who is the disordered person. And tragically alot of people will agree with him because they don´t see or smell the poison from a distance.
he ended up imprisoned for it. I took my chance to exit with my child to absolute no contact , I embraced my healing journey, it was hard, PTSD. I lived alone for 5 years. now I am in a truly loving kind respectful beautiful harmonious relationship. 😊
You just described my husband perfectly! Super intelligent and super covert - always making me second-guess my reality because he’s so very good at what he does!
The cerebral covert narcissist I had the misfortune of being traumatized by only verbally raged/insulted at me behind closed doors because he had to convince everyone else of what a gentle, kind, generous human being he was.
Diana Boughner mine did the same thing, except one time he lost control and acted out in front of his sister and occasionally made small comments in front of his mom. But when his dad and grandma were around he was on his best behavior. He wants their money....
Regarding whether or not their behavior is conscious, just think about how they conduct themselves privately versus publicly or when they’re grooming you versus the devaluation stage. That should tell you right there.
My mother in-law covert narc hired someone else to do out family pictures at a family reunion even though she knew I was a photographer. She also bought her own DSLR camera after I started having success with my business as if to say "See? I can do it too. It's just pushing a button. You're not doing anything special that I can't do." - Blah
My mother did this! I had bought a pair of boots that were in style at the time. The next day, she comes home WITH THE EXACT SAME PAIR and says to me in this cold voice, "See? I can wear boots too". Just beyond creepy.
Wow, does that sound familiar. I worked for days making my daughter a wedding video. I went to expense to get a projector to display it. Everything went wrong, but the video was good. Several days later her mil put a very nice video on Facebook and said she had made it herself in just a few minutes. I don’t know how she pulled it off, but this and a few other competitive behaviors were danger signs to me. I want these kids to have a happy marriage. I pretty much stay in the background and avoid too much involvement with this emotionally dangerous lady. As far as competition goes...she’s going to have to play solitaire. I’m not going to play that game because such conflicts can seriously undermine the happiness of our children’s’ marriage.
Narcs will first try to frame the rules of the game in such a way, that their covert aggression does not count as aggression but any reaction on your part (which is bound to happen) will fall under the category of evil behaviour. The rules are always supposed to have an assymmetrical impact while still maintaining the double illusion of fairness of the game and the narc (who adheres to the rules he set up or at least distorted to his own advantage). They want standards of behaviour that permit or completely overlook their sophisticated covert attacks while disarming you by taking away your ability to legitimately respond with any sort of "aggression" of your own and framing you as being overtly "aggressive". It´s like someone challenging you to a fight, "banning weapons" and the bringing his own Non-Weapon which conveniently does not count as a weapon. In the end you are supposed to get destroyed or survive as the villain and the "rule-breaker". This is a truly diabolical double bind which is really hard to defend yourself against (especially without becoming the narc yourself).
Or like someone who expects you to fight fair but then breaks out the bricks, chains, knives, rebar or anything else they can grab to their advantage in an alley fight where there ultimately are no rules except winning.
Agree completely. I suffered through a relationship years ago with a covert narc, and now the same kind of situation at work with a colleague, and didn't realize until researching how to deal with difficult people at work that i came across articles and these videos, which have helped me understand exactly what i have been dealing with. I didnt have a name for it before but i knew there was something seriously wrong. Thanks for these wonderful, informative videos.
Meredith! That was so profound and a wake up moment for me. I should have known that replaying a toxic conversation or situation over and over was a red flag but now that I look back that is so true! Your mind is designed to protect you and when you constantly replay those moments it's trying to decifer how to protect us because it failed in the past. Thank you both so much! ❤❤❤
The false apology is a perfect description of how a covert narcissist tries to assert that he/she will change. But we always have to remember that actions speak louder than words. They appear to be "nice" and they will do things for you because they have an alterior motive. They give you something and then they abuse you to confuse you. This is the passive-aggressive behavior. I believe we have to be awake and watch all footsteps. That is self empowerment. Thank you Meredith and Debbie for this really helpful video. I really respect what you are both doing to help others.
Although I sometimes feel they are delusional and don't know what the hell they are doing and become self destructive. It's exhausting and deppressing and no their love is never real
Now I understand the confusion of the covert narcissist! I dated one for 7 years and didn't understand what was wrong with him because he came across as so nice. I just thought it was his horrible childhood, Now I realize he is a covert narcissist! This knowledge gave me the strength to end it for good! Thank You!!!
Thank you for the great video. I am married to a covert narcissist and I have discovered it only few months ago. I couldn't understand and didn't know what was going on in my life for years, as I thought the problem was me ( I was always blamed by him that I am the cause of all problems). After 6 years of abusive marriage I no longer recognize myself. I completely lost my self confidence, feeling alone, depressed and not heard. My husband always belittles me, calls me names,master of gaslighting, verbally abuses and manipulates me all the time but when we are out he turns to a completely different person. He wears a mask of extremely nice and charming man and he is always at the center of attention. Often people tell me : "You are so lucky that you have very nice and good hearted husband" ,but they don't know who is he behind closed doors. When I am with him I feel like I am dying slowly. I want out of this relationship!!!
I absolutely needed to hear this today. The portion about the kids and how to deal with them disrespecting the healthy parent. It has been such an uphill battle getting my son to respect me.
@@oscarwilliamson1264 Thank you! We're getting support but most parents are not at all prepared for the verbal abuse and violence from even the smallest children. It's a LOT to handle. I just made a video about it will be sharing from my perspective as a parent.
I was “lucky” enough to figure him out in two years. Things just did not make sense at all and I often ended up staying up all night analysing things... Debbie’s books saved my life and sanity. I love your videos, thank you for sharing them! I have only just gone NC, hopefully for good this time.
I figured mine out quite quickly...within a few months BUT it has taken me 2 1/2 more years to finally go no contact. The SHOCK and unbelievability is just overwhelming. Denial was so strong for even though he admitted he was a narc. I just thought "since he can admit it, he can get help or I can show him how being this way actually hurts him." But nope...no such luck. He started as a man of God, great guy... and after his mask slipped, he demonstrated addiction, alcoholism, cheating, verbal and emotional abuse. We took time apart and when we spoke again, he had "repented" and was a renewed man of God. Within a day, he had made excuses, blamed me, and kept assuming negative things about me. Not hearing, or mis-hearing or mis-translating everything I said and turning it into something negative. Yikes. No contact is the only way.
This channel is life changing, thank you for all the effort and all the interesting videos and interviews Meredith, I always keep the most helpful videos to me in the favorites so that I could go back to them and remind myself of all important points, because it’s easy to forget these things if you’re not dealing with abuse at the moment, so just to make sure I’m not gonna repeat the mistake. I really suggest that the people who are watching to write down notes in a place where they can see them on regular bases or just watch the videos agains every now and then! And thank you Debbie for sharing your experience I’m definitely gonna check your channel.
Thank you for bringing up the fact that divorce from a narc being totally different when you have children. This so true!! I have gone big on teaching them about boundaries and the tactics of these people.
This was a great interview. Thank you to you beautiful women for doing this. Debbie's point as an indicator that you are with a covert is the decline of self is so BIG. Being with these horribly dangerous people is like being given drops of poison over time. I would not put past that my ex was actually poisoning me, as I had massive health break down. I never connected how I felt about myself as an indicator as to who is in my life. By the end of the long marriage, I was crying in the bathroom feeling ugly, low, and insignificant, but I just thought something was wrong with me all along. They are deadly as hell. What I would love for you to cover at some point is how the body warns us through health issues. This is a big part of my story. Many of the health issues I had were directly related to chronic stress and abuse, but I had no idea. I just kept running to doctors asking "what is wrong with ME?" I read an article (wish I bookmarked it) that said if you have health issues, the first thing you should do is evaluate WHO is in your life. This opened my eyes in a big way. Thank you for yet more validation. When I am healed and stronger, I will share more of my story because I truly was with a master covert.
That sounds like a great article. If you still have he link could you post it so I can share it? I did a video on this topic of the body warning you that you’re with toxic people few months ago. You might find some value in there.
Meredith, it was a great article, however, I read it last year and unfortunately I did not bookmark it. If I can find it again, I will share it. I have been following you since last year and I watched your videos about body warnings. You had one from last year as well. You discussed the subtleties of how the gut communicates. I believe my health was so detrimentally affected because my ex was highly covert and a sadist. Being exposed to that darkness affected me very much. I have quite the horror story to tell. Thank you for your work. I wish like hell I could afford coaching with you, but the financial sabotage has been brutal. Bless you!
Truth Seeker no worries! No need to go looking for it. I just meant if it was still easily accessible. It’s so true what happens with the body when in these kinds of situations. Sending you a big hug!
I was so worn down by the end. I literally spent all day in bed... I finally realized it was bc I dreaded being anywhere near him. I had constant anxiety, hated leaving the house... I realized it was bc I was constantly walking on eggshells and he intentionally did things that made my anxiety worse in public. I was severely overweight... I realized how he manipulated me into eating like crap to keep me feeling bad about myself while also seeming like he was being agreeable and thoughtful (by bringing me junk food as a "surprise" or encouraging me to buy it). I was sleep deprived... I realized he was purposely waking me up throughout the night, just to keep me miserable and non-functional. I had zero energy, I couldn't deal with the most basic setback, I cried almost every night, I was always on edge, I had recurring headaches, my skin was breaking out, and my hair was falling out in clumps. Once I realized what he was and what he was doing to me, one of my first thoughts was that he was poisoning me, bc my health had declined so much. Ofc then I got away and within 2 weeks felt like an entirely different person. *2 weeks* and I had no anxiety, I lost almost 20 pounds (i'm down over 50 lbs now in 4 months!), I could sleep more than an hour at a time, I wasn't breaking down and crying all the time or jumping at the slightest movement around me. It was, and still is, an amazing feeling. Idk if he was literally poisoning me (I wouldn't be surprised) but at the end of the day... just being near a narc IS poison. It feels like they are poisoning us bc they are, just not with chemical compounds. With shame, with guilt, with manipulation, with lies, with tricks, with silence, with aggression... they ARE the poison.
'You are not good enough.' As Debbie said in the other video, I am unlearning dances I learned growing up, relearn what real love looks like and feels like.
How to spot a covert narcissist in your inner circle - #1 They are the 'tanty chuckers'. Something's not going their way? You called them out on their behaviour? You got close to finding out one of their covert behaviours? You asked them about something they are ashamed of? You'll be met with a tantrum. Fastest control method to change the subject and redirect the victim outa their way. Thank you both for another great video. I look forward to the next one.
Not all Narcs control others through big displays of Narc rage. The covert type is more likely to control through passive aggressive means, such as the silent treatment.
I have 3 coverts I've parted ways from. Mother, husband and brother in law. They were not prone to big narc rages, but all would chuck little tantrums (sometimes only snapping and lasting a few seconds) to control almost any situation..... and you are right, the silent treatment was usually used to back up their tantrum. Punishment.
You both are a great help, I had been together with a covert narcissist who's age was over 60. He never yelled at me nothing, but I had two years of recovering because I had no Idea what was going on behind my knowledge all the lies, he actually destroyed me, after discard he tried hovering over one year, I blocked him. Thank you for your work!
My Ex was a covert with borderline traits also. I was a very laid back parent. Loving and nurturing and my youngest daughter started acting like her dad and I got her into Counselimg. She was also having problems because I had changed after leaving her dad and started having strong boundaries she wasnt use too. The longer shes gone no contact with her dad she doesnt have his tics no longer.
Loved this format of taking questions! Thank u for answering many of my own questions with this one video! Admireable what you gals are up to here. Helping alot of folks transcend this brutal snake in the grass! Much love ❤️
Yes ! Married for 37 years to a covert narcissist , I am now fully awake and I see his manipulations . As an empathetic person I now see that it is up to me to change ! I see him for who he is and I am calling him out . He is now never around , can’t face his responsabilités . I feel empowered now , like thIs is the most important moment in my life ! I see my future and present life differently , I feel a freedom I never knew before , no more fear .
You ladies are amazing! Thank you for another awesome and awakening video. Your first one really hit home. Keep up the amazing work because the world needs to know. Can’t thank you enough. I pray for my codependent 12yr old boy to see the light and come to me as I’m packing to leave with my 4yr old. His been caught in his monster covert dads web. 🙏🙏
This is one of the very best video counseling sessions! LOTS of information! Having gone through it... I want to tell others... study, understand it then... get out! Don’t mess around. Don’t waste your time. Choose what you will do with your life...be strong...and just do it! I’ll say it again... do NOT waste years on trying to change a narcissist! Move on with your life. Don’t choose this level of pain under any circumstances!
You ladies are absolutely so powerful helping us. My ex Narc is absolutely one genius covert Narc! I now have full control of my life and still healing.
I showed my children how to protect themselves by teaching them to trust their intuition. I told them that if it doesn’t feel right it probably isn’t, even if everything seems fine we can talk about it. They come to me a lot saying “I don’t think this is anything but...” and we’ll just talk about what happened and they have really learnt that their bodies can sense when something isn’t right.
Yes, if they are being nice, I'd worry, there's something they want to gain out of it. Si hacen algo bueno por ti, yo me preocuparía, seguro que quieren obtener algo a cambio.
Trying to understand them is so draining - you are absolutely right. Recognising the stuff that they are displaying is so necessary for my health - my survival - my ability to move on - even if it means letting go of certain people who have been in my life for a long time. If I am in the person's company and I am not feeling absolutely awesome about being with them - it is time to move on - even if it means being alone. I need to free up space in my life for the right type of people to come in
Thank you for this! My cover was my husband of 30 years! Very covert, never apologized for any wrong and was always telling me I was being sensitive and not making sense. After so many years of being ignored and being made to feel like I didn't matter while at the same time doing everything for everyone else he died. I watched your family cult video as well and that hit home too. Everyone loved my husband he was such a nice guy but I saw the other side no one else saw, so now after he's died I'm the pariah! No one will ever defame his memory by listening to me or agreeing with my experience. My one daughter, daddy's girl, is following the family line and dismissing me as unimportant and won't acknowledge me as mom but considers his side aunts as mom. I'm just feeling awful after learning all this. There's nothing left for me!
The narcissist's "Overt or Covert" habits strongly depend on their "successes or failures" in the way they abuse people. I have seen a highly intelligent narc become cocky and becomes more overt. Also I have seen an "Overt Narc" become more covert over time. They learn..they are a constantly evolving beast.
Thank you Meredith for your light and love and for all you do to help victims of narcissism. Debbie Mirza, I bought your book soon after leaving my narc husband of 23 years. Your book is fantastic!! It's the ONLY book out there that totally and succinctly captures the covert passive-aggressive narc's behavior. I began the book yellow-highlighting everything that related to my experience...i finally gave up because every page would've been yellow!! It was tremendously helpful and healing for me, THANK YOU for helping those of us dealing with these insidious, covert, under the radar, oh so subtle demonic evil brain disordered subhumans. Love and gratitude to you both, thank you for all you're doing to help the community!!
"They say they're sorry about little insignificant things..." Absolutely! This was a big thing he used to gaslight. Apologizing for dropping something or misspeaking in conversation... totally insignificant "throw-away" sorry. But when it came to a big thing, and he was in the middle of telling me how he was "tired of apologizing" (lol) and I would say "what are you talking about, you never apologize for anything," guess what got thrown in my face?! "I just apologized for dropping that cup yesterday! I say I'm sorry all the time!" That was the *only* reason he bothered to say sorry for the little stuff, so he could *claim* he apologized "all the time." Ofc, in reality even the insignificant sorrys were very few and far between and usually when he was ramping up to a blow-up. He was very strategic about what he "apologized" for, and you can bet is was NEVER for anything meaningful or that would show him accepting responsibility.
I have experienced several different kinds of covert narcissists, but the most severe one was a genius at veiled put - downs. After several years of my learning to let these just slide, they became more pointed and nasty. Finally, I started to become nasty in return. She couldn't take it, but said, "Now we're getting somewhere." Having known her for about fifteen years, I realized that she needed to know how important she was to you. How much would you put up with, and could she count on you to show signs of being an emotional SLAVE. That, I think, now looking back, is what she desperately needed in her relationships. (Not only with me) Her closest "friends" had demonstrated that they could be completely controlled, and would put up with tons of abuse just to keep her around. They'd get emotional and lose it with her. She'd stay calm. (She was very proud of this) This, she liked to let me know about. Once I learned that, I began to feel very wrong towards myself for letting early slights slide. I never felt I needed to lose my cool around her though. That's not my style at all. Of course, there were periods of time when we had fun, and there were no issues, or you couldn't keep this up for fifteen years, but by the time I started to give her some of her own medicine, I knew it was finished, and I dropped her. She was FURIOUS!
I love this video so much! I found it incredibly helpful as my teenage boys have started to relationally punish me and disrespect me after spending more time with their father. Its hard for me to stand up to them and set boundaries because they are being told I am controlling. I don't want to come off as controlling to them. But don't want to be walked on. Thank you for the great advice. I will be watching again!
You ladies ask the best questions ❤ Survivors sometimes forget to ask Or it feels too silly to ask So thank you ladies, for making this such a comfortable platform🎉
Mirza, Thanks for writing the book. I read it. I been looking for material on the subject matter for a while. You captured it all. I am definitely married to one. Been trying to figure it out for years (30 loooooong years). It has not been a fun experience at all, but rather one filled with “combat communications” that never made sense to me. You know when you are dealing with one when you are being twisted up like a pretzel every time for things that you clearly understand. They turn you upside down at any moment. Typically you walk away questioning what just occurred in a conversations. Mine put me down in subtle slick ways in front of people, leaving me to question my self-confidence all the time. I often walk away from conversations asking “why did she say that?” Definitely an exhaustive relationship that sucks all the positive energy out of you.
30 years . Then he became seriously ill, his son took over his books, it was a very wealthy family, I discovered he had removed me from the will and did not provide for me. He lrecovered and I had to fight him in court. Beware, I lived with him 30 years and I was totally blindsided. He was leaving me with nothing.. had he died I would have been done. He almost destroyed my life.... beware
Thank you for your videos, both of you. I am only 3 months divorced from a covert narcissist, and I am increasingly aware of how lucky I am that HE ended it. Whew. An example to share: I am passionate about maps and navigation(I'm a cool nerd for sure). He learned that quickly, nicknamed me Map Girl, and celebrated it to others as a fun superpower. He then exploded every time I kept him from missing an exit, or when I would ask "Which way do you want to go to New Jersey today?". He ended up forbidding me to contribute in any way to how we went anywhere. I still get very tense when I get in a car to go on a trip, even with my best friend. So much to unpack...
Took me 50 years to figure it out I have low contact, when I do have to have contact I have a very thick wall in place but the next day I am emotionally drained, body aches, functioning in a fog and easily brought to tears. Takes me 48 to 72 hours to recoup.
Thank you so much both of you. I found that one of the things I was most attracted to about my ex was he is very intelligent. Unfortunately, it made him a great covert/maybe sociopath. Even though yes, very intelligent, wow, he was so manipulative, and somehow managed to always pick a fight when something important was happening in my life, to sabotage (among other problems). That is also common. At one point, I told him if he ever threatened divorce again, it would happen, because I was not ok living in a relationship in jeopardy- too much stress. Well, he did it (to punish me for other boundary-setting, that putting me down was not ok, naturally) and he was shocked, because he had lost control. Instead of changing and going back and removing my boundaries, I said, ok, then that is your decision and I accept it. He was never able to put the mask back on again, changed into a completely different person, extremely emotionally abusive and cruel. It has been 6 months now. He has tried to hoover a few times, and when met with any kind of boundary setting (mostly I maintain no contact but every so often it is necessary) he quickly hurls some more abuse and retreats. It has been an incredible learning experience and Meredith, your videos really helped so much to get thru it. I now realize the things to look out for, and am much more clear about what is ok and not ok in a relationship.
What she said about noticing a slow decline in yourself is such a true statement with covert narcissists. I was in a 2 year relationship with this guy and noticed a change in myself, but I had depression prior to dating him. So I actually didn’t realize the decline was because of him until after the break-up. Thank goodness I was alert enough to see the red flags that he did present and get out of that relationship when I did.
Minute 32~ It's very important to know what love, peace, self approval, feel like in your body and to pay attention when this starts to change when in relationship with someone new. Feeling eternally grateful.
Meredith, I swear you must have been my husband's wife previous to me! been binge- listening to your videos all weekend while I type up my study guide for finals next week. I am 43 and going back to college to begin a new career which will enable me to be independent, self sufficient, and secure. Listening to your videos, I can relate to nearly all you share, it's like you've lived with the exact same people as myself and it blows my mind! I just have to laugh because you're dead on point, I laugh at who I used to be falling right into their traps, the predictiblilty of their pitiful and desperate behavior, and I laugh to live and grey rock on another day!!!Thank you for all the sincerity, great content, and for not giving up. Blessings to you!
Love this video! So eye opening! I was married to a covert narcissist for 33 years - been divorced for 6 months. My kids are all adults. I’m starting to see that at the same time he’s “discarding” me he’s “love bombing” my kids. It’s creating a gulf between me and my kids because “dad’s doing so good” but they don’t know how he treated me just a few hours ago. I can’t go no contact with him since we work in the same office.
Stumbling across your first video together was the changing point in my life. Everything that you guys described were all of the signs and feelings that I couldn’t put into words. THANK YOU BOTH for sharing your experiences and insight!!! True healing for me might take a long time, but I’m well on my way. Finally having validation and truth from others who’ve lived this nightmare, was the push I needed to leave my CN and start over!!!
I had to pause at 5:47 of this video, wow did that hit home!! I had a situation with my husband just recently, let me back up first. I've been with my husband for 9 years. In the very beginning I tried to "help" him with his insecurities...years later, "what do u mean gaslighting son? What is it?" Wow!! I am married to a what? Researching this narcissist thing, yes 😢 there is it. Thank God I'm not crazy! Fast forward to the other day. I told my husband how I felt that my youngest daughter and I, who is an adult, have a strange relationship. How she finds fault in everything I say and do. How it feels like she hates me!' It was silent in the truck for a few minutes and then he says "I think it would be fun to go trailing up on the island with said youngest daughter and her boyfriend." What the hell???
My covert has 3 college degrees...one in Psychology...He never used them for a career...married 8 yrs. I believe he got them all Just to learn how to play headgames better...He had me fooled for 7 of the 8 yrs. Once i confronted him( because i didnt know not to) One year of physical abuse and Getting me charged with destruction of property for breaking his windshield...when he had sat on top of me stabbing a knife all around my head...and hit me and kicked me and broken four phones and i stupidly never called police. I broke his 160$ windsheild...got a charge...and paid 800$ and Anger classes.... Yes...i literally told him innocently i just found out he was a Covert Narcissist... i asked him if hed ever been diagnosed... im thinking its an illness like bi polar. What a lesson I learned. 2 years nearly seperated. A few mos ....no contact...with about 6 prior attempts...
So sorry you had to go through that. Keep the no contact going and never look back. It gets greater later. It really does. Surround yourself around like minded people, take care of yourself and the rest will follow. Much love to you.
Oh my...this is so horrible. Keep strong and keep taking care of yourself. Looking back there are many ways I could have evidenced the N behaviour, but was in a state of fear and defence I guess. I left quietly and things are slowly coming to light. But you do have to get to the point where you don't care if anyone else understands. You know what happened to you and you must take care of yourself. Meredith's podcast on boundaries has changed my life. I will continue to listen to it over and over for strength and truth on healthy relationships.
Thank you amazing ladies!! You are amazing. This is deeply helpful. As I guide women on the path of Twin Flame Awakening, the issue of narcissistic abuse/codependency etc comes up regularly. It seems to be a huge part of the necessary healing and empowerment on the path to what I call Selfhood and Sovereignty. Self-love leading to unconditional love. THANK YOU ❤️
Great content, thank you! Much of this has resonated with me. I found myself writing in my journal, I'm 50 and I'm finally trusting myself. I discovered that I don't have to wait for my husband to defend me. I am just calm, and if the person starts to gossip, I say right away that I don't want to talk about it and I don't want to know about it. That stopped them. But it came from a place of peace and authenticity. I was kind, and set a new standard for conversation/relationship. In the past I have expected others to see it, but all it got me was blamed for something and disrespected. I've been able to go no contact without guilt, and gray rock as needed. Very helpful tools. So, all I want to say it that I am learning. I'm not perfect. But I have grown and I'm working on being kind. Thanks again for your insights.
I'm so grateful to you both! I feel so validated and seen!!! I didn't realize until this video that Meredith has a book too. I came across Debbie's interview with Meredith and bought her book first. I have so much love for you both and appreciation in helping many heal. Earth angels are among us and you are definitely two of them! :-) 🥰
You two are so helpful! Thank you so much for having these discussions on covert narcissism. That one one statement on the difference between nice and the layers required to be kind is so poignant!!!!! Keep informing the public and the wisdom you two are gleaning!!!!
What confuses me with a covert narcissist is how can they be so nice and sweet and then 'consciously' be so twisted and gas lighting the next. Denying their own behaviour : when they can be in a group or interpersonal relationship with others and friends and be so incredibly aware & full of healthy comments addressing such behaviour in others.
This has been the best video I have seen on the Covert narcissist. I MUST share that I have seen my N spouse become more covert over the 25 years of our marriage. Where he used to shout, break things and once attempted minor physical abuse he now is calm, quiet, collected and cunning in his ways. His vocation? Priest. He has spent much of our married life getting more education. He has several Masters and a PhD. Clearly i can see now he felt the need for this acquiring of knowledge for his defence. And, as you both said, an overt N CAN BECOME MORE COVERT OVER TIME BY ACQUIRING INTELLIGENCE. As stated in your talk, he even has read myriads of marriage and psychological books. He very clearly can state a text book definition of his behaviour while accusing me of it. It is maddening. Another behaviour you both discussed was how the covert N develops the perfect humility. As a priest, this behaviour really plays on the congregation and his superiors. Interestingly, when I first left my spouse, he met with his boss and challenged him saying 'if he was so bad and what I was saying was true he should be removed from the priesthood'. This was an intimidation tactic that kept the powers that be at bay. His humility sounds so convincing. Again, it is text book, he knows exactly what to say. When I have pointed out his actions against his words my spouse would get more overt through anger and physically intimidate by getting in my space. I learned something this week while reading a book called The Servant by James C Hunter; he says: INTENTIONS - ACTIONS = SQUAT and INTENTIONS + ACTIONS = WILL. This struck a cord with me. This formula is the basis of all relationships. Intentions are nothing unless you will them to action through love; whether a general love of humanity or a friendship/filial love of a partner. . The bottom line for me with my spouse is, 'you say this but you you do that' and it just isn't acceptable. Thank you so so much for the work you are both doing!
The narcissist that is at this point in and out of my life via text message mostly comes across as someone who is super Zen and everything I do is wrong and everything that he tells me that I should do or feel or think is right. He thinks he’s covert but he’s not. And thanks to videos like this I see right through him. Because of my loneliness and being alone after my divorce for the last 20 years I’ve let this craziness go on for way too long. Four long months of this is enough for me. And this whole time it’s been about him. I know so much about what he wants me to know about him. And he knows absolutely very little about me and my life. I did try to squeeze in my thoughts and feelings and share experiences with him but he wanted nothing to do with that. And one of his things of making me shut up when we were out having wine or something like that was you’re so beautiful just shut up and kiss me. That irked me to no end. And at first I let it go and now I am finding myself or have found myself guarded into the things that I say to him around him or even texting him. I can’t live like this. This is too much. In my 47 years this is my first time being in a relationship with someone like this besides my father whom I had no choice in the matter. I hope what little I’ve said and there’s so much more ...that this helps someone reading this. Because it’s better to feel a little bit of loneliness from time to time rather than to be around this abusive up and down always worried kind of relationship. It’s so toxic. I am going to delete his number today and I am going to also block his number thanks to the Apple phone you can do that. And I really hope that if he comes around that I’m strong enough to resist it… His charms. Wish me luck Beautiful people.
Great, great, great video.....so loved it. You both demonstrated "real" love, respect, and affection......"genuine" empathy and caring. I really liked how you included both genders in this topic....as we really can only feel our own gender's response, so it is great to see it from the aspect of the other gender. Women tend to "workshop" these types of things more, where men have been taught to pride themselves, on their ability to figure things out for themselves, and that seeking help, guidance, or understanding, through "workshoping" these things with their male friends, or family, is a sign of weakness, and frowned upon....especially in more "macho" cultures. The bit about setting "assertive boundaries", with your kids, through separation and divorce, and explaining the difference between healthy, and unhealthy behaviours, was awesome. Thank you both, for making this video...would love to see more like this..... and, as the wonderful John Bradshaw says..."You can never fail, with DETAIL".......when you give real life examples of interactions, people can really relate. ♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥
Mother has been very competitive, jealous and obsessed about her childhood. She was extremely verbally and physically abusive toward us. As an adult I've had to learn to ignore her "insinuation" that she trying to offer helpful advise. When we are in a social situation she constantly kisses me and tells me how much she loves me. It reinforces in others and my children that "I" have a problem because all she is trying to do is love me. I avoid her as much as possible and that hurts.
The covert-aggressive form of narcissism is a double edged sword. Narcs will first try to frame the rules of the game in such a way, that their covert aggression does not count as
wow! yes! what a good point to make. they frame their actions as fair play and healthy actions (that you might initially respond with) as "bad" or "wrong" or "unhealthy". they change the framework so their disfunction is presented as good. really good point!
I’ve always thought Obama is a covert type. Super intelligent, sophisticated, eloquent and charming. He does a great job hiding his scandals and repeating again and again how he has no scandals. Also the Nobel Peace Prize right before he started to bomb 7 countries was classic 😂 then no one noticed he was dropping 26,000 bombs per year by 2016.
Excellent point about them saying sorry... They use it as a tool to show you how you should do it. It's like training a dog.. "This is how I want you to do it"... But do it more and better.
Currently reading The Covert Passive Aggressive narcissist book right now. Left my ex when I was 10 Weeks Pregnant because his covert became overt and I started noticing all the covert things he had done. My sons 4 months old now. I have to see my ex every other weekend for an hour to an hour and half. After we split his family made him go to behavioral therapy because they found out how bad he really treated me. Now he acts different.... But I don’t trust it. I think it’s all an act. I’ll be 22 soon and it’s been a year since the split.... And I’m terrified to get back to dating because I’m scared of having a repeat..
NICI LOVE thank you. Some of my family questions me about it. They can’t seem to understand how “I’d let something like that happen to begin with”. Because they “thought I was smarter then this”.... So I really do appreciate you saying that.
@@anne9859 he would have duped any one of them as well. No one escapes the first time, and often the second or third time, especially if they are different types or your relationships are different. You are wiser now, and that's what matters.
I had a similar experience except I didn't have kids with him and he was mostly covert. I got with him when I was 13 and I left him when I was 19. He had conditioned our mutual friends so they thought he was a victim bc he would start stuff in private and then when I would finally react it would be in public. When I left, he started a smear campagn about me and I lost any remaining friends I had, which wasn't very many. The only way I was able to get into a relationship, despite the fear of something like this happening again, was by trusting my gut feeling. It felt wrong at first because part of being with a narcissist is ignoring your gut feelings in order to stay with them.
I think that the CN I just left, was very deliberate with his subtle and not so subtle put downs. He once told me that he had figured me out easy peasy. I had been second guessing myself until I watched the other video you did about trusting your intuition. Paying attention to that knot in your stomach and something feeling off, or when feeling confused tune into your body and your constants.
17 was when I awaken now I m 20 ...four years now n seriously even tho it four years dealing with extreme post stress n anxiety but even tho you experience all these emotions..u know it worth it cux I have heal slowly so breaking free is HARD but soo worth it..love u all survivors!
Interesting conversation. Have not heard some of this before, although i recognize the situation described in which the mask comes off, and covert become more overt once you've called their bluff or they realize you are on to their game, and the discard has begun. It's no one you recognize.
i just got out ladies of a five year relationship with a covert~~ I love all the work you do. I hope to help others in my future. I am so grateful for your life experience and sharing this very important informaton to help those who are empath giving people who never understood why they couldn't get ahead in life while caring for their narc parent and then a narc partner.
Dear God, the lightbulb is slowly going on for me. I knew my mother was some kind of a histrionic/ Narc spectrum. I used to tease her to “be kind to the humans cause they were doing the best they can!” She was more overt. She didn’t give a crap what people thought of her opinions of others. My sister and I were always cleaning up after her outbursts. Her ‘hurricane’ always left a wake. Also. I’m starting to see my M-I-L falls in to this covert type. I could never make her happy. Every time my husband or I would be excited about things going well in our life, she would triangulate and redirect the conversation to the ‘golden child’ daughter in the family. No one could live up to her image. (She did not like this portrayal of herself from the MIL). Or redirect to her church or her opinions. I endured her subtle barbs and innuendoes for YEARS. A trait I am seeing now, and would like to share, is this idea that the narcissist, whether covert or overt, does not see themselves as belonging to the human race. They are above it or they are perfect or they stand outside of it somehow. They are more than human. They might be super religious even, but there is a self-righteous aspect they cannot escape. Wow, these videos are super enlightening. Thank you!
My ex BF was a therapist with a strong CN signature. His mother was a blazing (c)overt and thus he became the covert in his relationships. He knew so much about human nature that it was a very hard case of seeing what the heck was going on. Manipulating all over the fucking place, feeling left with the blame for his cheating and the way it still affects me. I am still fighting with my recovery, two years since then. What you have said through this video opened my eyes enormously, made me feel like my feelings were acknowledged, and I now know why he was acting the way he did. I am NOT crazy for pointing these things out to other people who doesn not know what a CN is, and thus don't believe my experiences were THAT harsh. This is the ultimate worst experience at alle, not being recognized or heard for what it was.... Keep doing what you do, it is GOOD 👌
Thank you for acknowledging the incidence in which this occurs for men. I Just made it through a divorce after 24 yrs. of marriage and have never experienced more craziness. My Advice: Never try to mediate on your own, no matter how well you know your partner; you’ll get fleeced-primarily because you’ll just want/need to end the insanity and pain. When I asked our mediator in private for his assessment of our situation, he said, “after thirty years of mediation...this one is memorable.” I laughed and gave him permission to include it in a book. Get an attorney who understands. I was so lucky to find a local therapist, Gary Klein, while searching UA-cam, who really understands this dynamic. Your audiences would be very well served to listen to the link I’ve attached. In fact, Gary would be a great interview for either of you if you want to speak more specifically about navigating legal pitfalls and more. Richard Grannon references Gary’s work often. He’s a great guy....highly knowledgeable...and offers very practical advice! I cant recommend him enough to this community. ua-cam.com/video/tHNYlYuaxcY/v-deo.html
Excellent discussion ladies! Having gone/going through recovery from being in a relationship with a narcissist (2 years since the discard), I recognise everything you were sharing, and subsequently learned that my former partner was (I believe) a covert narcissist. Yes, the mask did drop once or twice, and particularly post-discard. A good observation about them apologising, and their 'pretend empathy'. In spite of the ever-running commentary by my former partner that she was 'all emotion' and 'functions through intuition'. However, I found her emotion was outward going and self-serving, not perceptive and responsive to others, unless an outburst to being disagreed with, criticised, or challenged - I definitely sensed a disconnection from real emotional engagement.
They are vengefull souls who feel lonely, so dont pity... they experienced a disconnect, absence to their other half (man & woman). "the weak in courage is strong in cunning"
Los subtítulos en español ya vienen! Además para mi gente de habla español, ya pronto me van a poder ver en el canal de Florencia Deffis, una mujer fenomenal que acabo de conocer acá en CDMX y vamos a hablar del abuso narcisista en la pareja. Este fin de semana grabamos el video y la semana próxima lo pueden ver en su canal.
Inner Integration thank u Meredith. ...and Venus ...polar bear kisses ♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡xoxo
Inner Integration thank u
Juntas será genial,sois mis favoritas en estos temas desde hace tiempo.Thanks from Spain💚
Muchas gracias Mera, por pensar en nosotros /as también. Un saludo.
Sí, Graciaaas!!!
We can divide covert narcissism into three stages:
Initially:
1. We do not feel comfortable, yet they are nice so we overlook and move forward. But at this initial stage we need to move backward and reflect.
During this stage when we are not with them, we think something is not right and look at the conversations or phases over and over again.
2. Second stage:
Now our relationship is established and unknowingly we will be serving them because it is always about them.
3. Stage 3:
We realize that our needs are never met. We are drained and cannot serve them anymore. We need air. We feel choked and congested. The bond is so strong....and it feel cannot come out clean.
Whatever stage you are in....get out and get some fresh air. NO CONTACT.
Priya Nesan Would Love advice? I keep hearing Coverts are So dangerous?? They say leave carefully and quietly do you know how to sale a home while getting out quietly? How do you get out when your in so much debt in a state where there debts are your debts? I’m trying to get those paid down I can’t ruin my credit where will I live? He knows I’m disabled and he knows we are in debt because he put us 30,000 in debt due to a CC and 2 loans he hid behind my back for 6 years..Yet the man I married would have never done such He Also go this card when we had more than enough money??? He got the card behind my back after I had said we don’t need the credit we have cash and told the banker no Thank you I went home paid off old cards and old late bills! While he went back too the bank and got a 10,000 credit card in his name off of my WC money off of the bank account we had setup with my WC back pay money into bank!! He denied even when the loan officer of the mortgage company said the CC was his for sure He never mentioned the other 2 accounts each adding up too 10,000 until she called back each time for each one I learned about all this from a stranger after I had made a fool of my myself saying it was fraud and him telling me just pay sit. Worry About it! Seriously 😳 pay 10,000 to a card that’s fraudulent?? To this day I’ve not gotten a real apology nor have I gotten anything to put my trust back together in This marriage?? So I’m looking for all the advice I can get your comment sounds great if I just had more information on what he’s gonna do when I say we’re paying these bills off and we’re selling the house and I’m gone?? Specially since he don’t make enough money from his job to even support himself!! So I’m a little afraid to say The least... Looking for answers please thx Shey
Yay for no contact. It has seriously set me free from those stages above that are explained perfectly!
@@Sheywh12 make an appointment for a consultation with a lawyer
Indeed
Great explanation of exactly how it was with me too
I was with my husband for almost 20 years; I had no idea what was going on at the time and it was only after his death 18 months ago, that I started to delve into what had happened over all those years of drama, great highs and more lows. As he aged, and went for counselling, life did get better, but never enough. I kept hoping for the idyllic future. I just thought he was dealing with difficult emotional issues, and started to realise that he was not going to change, so I withdrew and became very bitter toward him. He was a master at projecting a mild-mannered, kind and compassionate exterior but behind closed doors, he would let it all fly. He tried to convince me that I was crazy, and turned everything around, especially if I reacted emotionally to his crazy-making. Over time I lost my ability to look at him with compassion and I hated the angry person I’d become. He was also full of beautiful but empty promises. It was so hard for me to let go of the dream of who I thought he was and what our life was going to be like. Another sad twist is that he became terminally ill, just when I was planning on leaving. But I stayed to take care of him. There were still nasty surprises near his death of financial matters that he did not take care, leaving yet more chaos for me. Fortunately, I was clever enough to save some money, after my trust evaporated, and I always continued working in a very good government job with a pension. I have a good therapist and am devoting my life at the moment to healing. The pain with him was unimaginable. He was an expert liar and I never felt he was authentic with me for one day in his life, even as he was dying...I keep thinking, what a sad waste of a life. Thank you for these wonderful videos.
Mel Isherwood I am sorry you went through so much with him.
Wow do I ever relate and feel for you and your story. It's incredible how much damage they can do when no one is looking. Or looking. They even get away with it right in front of people.
For instance my brother came to visit my mom and I was out front messing in my canopy unit when he pulled in. She was walking out at the time. but turned around when she saw him and went back into the house. Brother and I exchanged greetings as she was coming towards me with a huge slice of watermelon and an extended arm in my direction saying " it's so hot out here I thought you'd like this". Well just out of his sight line her face told all. The look was "don't ever mess with me because they'll never believe a word you say. I'm a nice mother". Brother watched the whole thing and said "Awwwwww....." smiling. So she won that one hands done. So sutle, so covert, so sick and so debilitating.
I'm glad you're working on you and your healing. I'll be doing the same as soon as I get out of here. Working on it daily. Take care.
This is so me now...9 surgeries in 5 years, been married less than 6, pray for me! He is older and falling apart and its all my fault of course!
And I heal Grandly w each surgery!
Wow Mel! This is a profound and powerful lesson you courageously shared here! Thank you so much for your living example! ❤️
Covert types are so deceptive. We need to listen to our gut. Take time to listen, really listen. Then...run.
haha yup
Yes ❤❤
Yes the guy tells us first
My gut was right EVERY TIME but I did not listen to it :(
Exactly. Our gut tells us when something is off. 🚫
Covert narcs will even cry to "show" you how much empathy they have.
Absolutely. Then they blame you for making them cry for you. "You made me do it."
Omg my ex narc would make a big show of crying but only like 1 tear came out in like 5 minutes of 'crying'
They cry for themselves. Self pity...
Yep, it’s so fake!
Oscar award winning performances
Married to the covert for 37 years...we’re separated now and I’ve never been happier. Everything you have shared is true.
25 years...don't know how you lasted 37! It is sad, but peaceful.
Rhea Steel it is sad and yes peaceful. Hugs to you.
Valerie Silva He left me saying I would never see him again but it was all under the guise of manipulation. He thought he would be coming back after a week or two. He never thought I would actually take him up on it. He had been threatening me with divorce for many years using the threat as manipulation and intimidation. When he left, I felt nothing but relief and peace. He has tried to come back but I moved out and got my own place as fast as I could while he was gone. I’m now working full time in a school and loving my life once again. I had forgot what it felt like to be happy and I have actually felt guilty for being happy...it’s crazy. I’m on a healing journey. I understand it’s a hard thing to do. I’ve got an excellent support group. I wish you well.
Valerie Silva yes, there is definitely hope for your future. I just turned 64.
Tracey, good for you! My divorce was final November, 2017 after 37 years together. Two months later I turned 65. Four days before our trial date (married to a covert narc attorney), I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I am just now starting to feel like me and I am happy and content. Do not miss him and rarely think about him. Wish all of you luck. It's not an easy process but so worth it.
"Their niceness is from trying to get something from you."
My covert ex-husband had a very high intelligence level, close to genius. Very charming, hard-working, evasive, elusive. But when he was very angry, the five-year-old would come out and I began to see something that was very disturbing. He would scream "leave me alone" or "go away" and throw things and slam his fists on the desk, was hysterical over the smallest slight.
I can relate to this Monica!
Sounds like my mom.
The genius part, please excuse my language, is complete bull crap. They all somehow try to point out that crap and it’s simply not true.
The covert-aggressive form of narcissism is almost always a two-step of first covertly attacking you and then denying their attack and framing your -often deliberately provoked- overt reactions or responses as the true aggression
Its like someone who whill try to kill you by touching you with a poison. And then if you defend yourself against this very real threat by shoving and punching to keep his lethal poison away he ill cry out in pain and announce publicly to everybody how your reaction was totally unwarranted and proves that it is of course you who is the disordered person.
And tragically alot of people will agree with him because they don´t see or smell the poison from a distance.
Yes! This is why I teach the Respond vs. React technique so you don't fall into the trap that they lay out for you to look like the bad guy.
You got it so right, here.
Good analogy.
Baiting and antagonizing, they set up traps so well.
he ended up imprisoned for it. I took my chance to exit with my child to absolute no contact , I embraced my healing journey, it was hard, PTSD. I lived alone for 5 years. now I am in a truly loving kind respectful beautiful harmonious relationship. 😊
You just described my husband perfectly! Super intelligent and super covert - always making me second-guess my reality because he’s so very good at what he does!
The cerebral covert narcissist I had the misfortune of being traumatized by only verbally raged/insulted at me behind closed doors because he had to convince everyone else of what a gentle, kind, generous human being he was.
Diana Boughner mine did the same thing, except one time he lost control and acted out in front of his sister and occasionally made small comments in front of his mom. But when his dad and grandma were around he was on his best behavior. He wants their money....
@@anne9859 🤔they love money. Mine was a hoarder too.
Diana Boughner mine liked to complain about not having money, make me pay, then brag about all these things he was going to buy....
My ex H covert cerebral N same!!!! Called me whore, disgusting, garbage when we were alone then in front of kids very next day nicey nice
Regarding whether or not their behavior is conscious, just think about how they conduct themselves privately versus publicly or when they’re grooming you versus the devaluation stage. That should tell you right there.
Exactly!
missmerbella what do you mean?
My mother in-law covert narc hired someone else to do out family pictures at a family reunion even though she knew I was a photographer. She also bought her own DSLR camera after I started having success with my business as if to say "See? I can do it too. It's just pushing a button. You're not doing anything special that I can't do." - Blah
Great example!
Alucinante!
My mother did this! I had bought a pair of boots that were in style at the time. The next day, she comes home WITH THE EXACT SAME PAIR and says to me in this cold voice, "See? I can wear boots too". Just beyond creepy.
Wow, does that sound familiar. I worked for days making my daughter a wedding video. I went to expense to get a projector to display it. Everything went wrong, but the video was good. Several days later her mil put a very nice video on Facebook and said she had made it herself in just a few minutes. I don’t know how she pulled it off, but this and a few other competitive behaviors were danger signs to me. I want these kids to have a happy marriage. I pretty much stay in the background and avoid too much involvement with this emotionally dangerous lady. As far as competition goes...she’s going to have to play solitaire. I’m not going to play that game because such conflicts can seriously undermine the happiness of our children’s’ marriage.
Wouldn’t she need to be in the pictures??
Narcs will first try to frame the rules of the game in such a way, that their covert aggression does not count as aggression but any reaction on your part (which is bound to happen) will fall under the category of evil behaviour.
The rules are always supposed to have an assymmetrical impact while still maintaining the double illusion of fairness of the game and the narc (who adheres to the rules he set up or at least distorted to his own advantage).
They want standards of behaviour that permit or completely overlook their sophisticated covert attacks while disarming you by taking away your ability to legitimately respond with any sort of "aggression" of your own and framing you as being overtly "aggressive".
It´s like someone challenging you to a fight, "banning weapons" and the bringing his own Non-Weapon which conveniently does not count as a weapon. In the end you are supposed to get destroyed or survive as the villain and the "rule-breaker".
This is a truly diabolical double bind which is really hard to defend yourself against (especially without becoming the narc yourself).
Or like someone who expects you to fight fair but then breaks out the bricks, chains, knives, rebar or anything else they can grab to their advantage in an alley fight where there ultimately are no rules except winning.
Great way of describing this. They always change the rules at random so no matter what you do or don't do, it' wrong.
Agree completely. I suffered through a relationship years ago with a covert narc, and now the same kind of situation at work with a colleague, and didn't realize until researching how to deal with difficult people at work that i came across articles and these videos, which have helped me understand exactly what i have been dealing with. I didnt have a name for it before but i knew there was something seriously wrong. Thanks for these wonderful, informative videos.
All true. My covert mother tells people I'm combative.
Meredith! That was so profound and a wake up moment for me. I should have known that replaying a toxic conversation or situation over and over was a red flag but now that I look back that is so true! Your mind is designed to protect you and when you constantly replay those moments it's trying to decifer how to protect us because it failed in the past.
Thank you both so much! ❤❤❤
Covert narcissists are more passive-aggressive.
Adela Setara you’re exactly right!
Scarily so.
and secretly very aggressive if no one else is around to witness their behavior.
The false apology is a perfect description of how a covert narcissist tries to assert that he/she will change. But we always have to remember that actions speak louder than words. They appear to be "nice" and they will do things for you because they have an alterior motive. They give you something and then they abuse you to confuse you. This is the passive-aggressive behavior. I believe we have to be awake and watch all footsteps. That is self empowerment. Thank you Meredith and Debbie for this really helpful video. I really respect what you are both doing to help others.
Although I sometimes feel they are delusional and don't know what the hell they are doing and become self destructive. It's exhausting and deppressing and no their love is never real
Now I understand the confusion of the covert narcissist! I dated one for 7 years and didn't understand what was wrong with him because he came across as so nice. I just thought it was his horrible childhood, Now I realize he is a covert narcissist! This knowledge gave me the strength to end it for good! Thank You!!!
I love these ladies’ genuine smiles
Thank you for the great video. I am married to a covert narcissist and I have discovered it only few months ago. I couldn't understand and didn't know what was going on in my life for years, as I thought the problem was me ( I was always blamed by him that I am the cause of all problems). After 6 years of abusive marriage I no longer recognize myself. I completely lost my self confidence, feeling alone, depressed and not heard. My husband always belittles me, calls me names,master of gaslighting, verbally abuses and manipulates me all the time but when we are out he turns to a completely different person. He wears a mask of extremely nice and charming man and he is always at the center of attention. Often people tell me : "You are so lucky that you have very nice and good hearted husband" ,but they don't know who is he behind closed doors. When I am with him I feel like I am dying slowly. I want out of this relationship!!!
You posted this a few years ago. I just discovered this channel after leaving a covert narc. I pray you made it out of this relationship ❤️
Very true it's so terrible you feel so alone
I absolutely needed to hear this today. The portion about the kids and how to deal with them disrespecting the healthy parent. It has been such an uphill battle getting my son to respect me.
Totally dealing with this. It’s validating to hear others share this experience.
@@oscarwilliamson1264 Thank you! We're getting support but most parents are not at all prepared for the verbal abuse and violence from even the smallest children. It's a LOT to handle. I just made a video about it will be sharing from my perspective as a parent.
I was “lucky” enough to figure him out in two years. Things just did not make sense at all and I often ended up staying up all night analysing things... Debbie’s books saved my life and sanity.
I love your videos, thank you for sharing them! I have only just gone NC, hopefully for good this time.
I figured mine out quite quickly...within a few months BUT it has taken me 2 1/2 more years to finally go no contact. The SHOCK and unbelievability is just overwhelming. Denial was so strong for even though he admitted he was a narc. I just thought "since he can admit it, he can get help or I can show him how being this way actually hurts him." But nope...no such luck.
He started as a man of God, great guy... and after his mask slipped, he demonstrated addiction, alcoholism, cheating, verbal and emotional abuse. We took time apart and when we spoke again, he had "repented" and was a renewed man of God. Within a day, he had made excuses, blamed me, and kept assuming negative things about me. Not hearing, or mis-hearing or mis-translating everything I said and turning it into something negative. Yikes. No contact is the only way.
This channel is life changing, thank you for all the effort and all the interesting videos and interviews Meredith, I always keep the most helpful videos to me in the favorites so that I could go back to them and remind myself of all important points, because it’s easy to forget these things if you’re not dealing with abuse at the moment, so just to make sure I’m not gonna repeat the mistake. I really suggest that the people who are watching to write down notes in a place where they can see them on regular bases or just watch the videos agains every now and then! And thank you Debbie for sharing your experience I’m definitely gonna check your channel.
Thank you for bringing up the fact that divorce from a narc being totally different when you have children. This so true!! I have gone big on teaching them about boundaries and the tactics of these people.
This was a great interview. Thank you to you beautiful women for doing this. Debbie's point as an indicator that you are with a covert is the decline of self is so BIG. Being with these horribly dangerous people is like being given drops of poison over time. I would not put past that my ex was actually poisoning me, as I had massive health break down. I never connected how I felt about myself as an indicator as to who is in my life. By the end of the long marriage, I was crying in the bathroom feeling ugly, low, and insignificant, but I just thought something was wrong with me all along. They are deadly as hell. What I would love for you to cover at some point is how the body warns us through health issues. This is a big part of my story. Many of the health issues I had were directly related to chronic stress and abuse, but I had no idea. I just kept running to doctors asking "what is wrong with ME?" I read an article (wish I bookmarked it) that said if you have health issues, the first thing you should do is evaluate WHO is in your life. This opened my eyes in a big way. Thank you for yet more validation. When I am healed and stronger, I will share more of my story because I truly was with a master covert.
That sounds like a great article. If you still have he link could you post it so I can share it? I did a video on this topic of the body warning you that you’re with toxic people few months ago. You might find some value in there.
Meredith, it was a great article, however, I read it last year and unfortunately I did not bookmark it. If I can find it again, I will share it. I have been following you since last year and I watched your videos about body warnings. You had one from last year as well. You discussed the subtleties of how the gut communicates. I believe my health was so detrimentally affected because my ex was highly covert and a sadist. Being exposed to that darkness affected me very much. I have quite the horror story to tell. Thank you for your work. I wish like hell I could afford coaching with you, but the financial sabotage has been brutal. Bless you!
Truth Seeker no worries! No need to go looking for it. I just meant if it was still easily accessible. It’s so true what happens with the body when in these kinds of situations. Sending you a big hug!
I was so worn down by the end. I literally spent all day in bed... I finally realized it was bc I dreaded being anywhere near him. I had constant anxiety, hated leaving the house... I realized it was bc I was constantly walking on eggshells and he intentionally did things that made my anxiety worse in public. I was severely overweight... I realized how he manipulated me into eating like crap to keep me feeling bad about myself while also seeming like he was being agreeable and thoughtful (by bringing me junk food as a "surprise" or encouraging me to buy it). I was sleep deprived... I realized he was purposely waking me up throughout the night, just to keep me miserable and non-functional. I had zero energy, I couldn't deal with the most basic setback, I cried almost every night, I was always on edge, I had recurring headaches, my skin was breaking out, and my hair was falling out in clumps. Once I realized what he was and what he was doing to me, one of my first thoughts was that he was poisoning me, bc my health had declined so much. Ofc then I got away and within 2 weeks felt like an entirely different person. *2 weeks* and I had no anxiety, I lost almost 20 pounds (i'm down over 50 lbs now in 4 months!), I could sleep more than an hour at a time, I wasn't breaking down and crying all the time or jumping at the slightest movement around me. It was, and still is, an amazing feeling. Idk if he was literally poisoning me (I wouldn't be surprised) but at the end of the day... just being near a narc IS poison. It feels like they are poisoning us bc they are, just not with chemical compounds. With shame, with guilt, with manipulation, with lies, with tricks, with silence, with aggression... they ARE the poison.
'You are not good enough.' As Debbie said in the other video, I am unlearning dances I learned growing up, relearn what real love looks like and feels like.
How to spot a covert narcissist in your inner circle - #1 They are the 'tanty chuckers'. Something's not going their way? You called them out on their behaviour? You got close to finding out one of their covert behaviours? You asked them about something they are ashamed of? You'll be met with a tantrum. Fastest control method to change the subject and redirect the victim outa their way.
Thank you both for another great video. I look forward to the next one.
Not all Narcs control others through big displays of Narc rage. The covert type is more likely to control through passive aggressive means, such as the silent treatment.
I have 3 coverts I've parted ways from. Mother, husband and brother in law. They were not prone to big narc rages, but all would chuck little tantrums (sometimes only snapping and lasting a few seconds) to control almost any situation..... and you are right, the silent treatment was usually used to back up their tantrum. Punishment.
You both are a great help, I had been together with a covert narcissist who's age was over 60. He never yelled at me nothing, but I had two years of recovering because I had no Idea what was going on behind my knowledge all the lies, he actually destroyed me, after discard he tried hovering over one year, I blocked him.
Thank you for your work!
They know what they are doing at least in my experience
Yes. This helps keep me grounded. They know full well.
Divine Time h
It's their plan.
I had one even tell me what she was going to do to others. I kept my distance from that madness!
Heartily agree with you. He knew what he was doing. He saw the result. He enjoyed the result!
My Ex was a covert with borderline traits also. I was a very laid back parent. Loving and nurturing and my youngest daughter started acting like her dad and I got her into Counselimg. She was also having problems because I had changed after leaving her dad and started having strong boundaries she wasnt use too. The longer shes gone no contact with her dad she doesnt have his tics no longer.
That is encouraging!
Loved this format of taking questions! Thank u for answering many of my own questions with this one video! Admireable what you gals are up to here. Helping alot of folks transcend this brutal snake in the grass!
Much love ❤️
Yes ! Married for 37 years to a covert narcissist , I am now fully awake and I see his manipulations . As an empathetic person I now see that it is up to me to change ! I see him for who he is and I am calling him out . He is now never around , can’t face his responsabilités . I feel empowered now , like thIs is the most important moment in my life ! I see my future and present life differently , I feel a freedom I never knew before , no more fear .
You ladies are amazing! Thank you for another awesome and awakening video. Your first one really hit home.
Keep up the amazing work because the world needs to know. Can’t thank you enough. I pray for my codependent 12yr old boy to see the light and come to me as I’m packing to leave with my 4yr old. His been caught in his monster covert dads web. 🙏🙏
This is one of the very best video counseling sessions! LOTS of information! Having gone through it... I want to tell others... study, understand it then... get out! Don’t mess around. Don’t waste your time. Choose what you will do with your life...be strong...and just do it! I’ll say it again... do NOT waste years on trying to change a narcissist! Move on with your life. Don’t choose this level of pain under any circumstances!
You ladies are absolutely so powerful helping us. My ex Narc is absolutely one genius covert Narc! I now have full control of my life and still healing.
I showed my children how to protect themselves by teaching them to trust their intuition. I told them that if it doesn’t feel right it probably isn’t, even if everything seems fine we can talk about it. They come to me a lot saying “I don’t think this is anything but...” and we’ll just talk about what happened and they have really learnt that their bodies can sense when something isn’t right.
Yes! I was previously married to a covert and I have taught my daughter this too.
Yes, if they are being nice, I'd worry, there's something they want to gain out of it.
Si hacen algo bueno por ti, yo me preocuparía, seguro que quieren obtener algo a cambio.
I would like to say thanks for all these videos, it has really helped me out to understand what I have gone through.
Thank you from Spain!
Analysis paralysis.
Agustin Roba helped me too...helps me & others too..........
The demon/devil from hell...
They know what they are doing trust me evil mfs..
I had a lower range did property damage and tried to kill me...I fix that f!@#$r real good!
You nailed it again!! Fake apology and over apologize. Covert narcissist for sure
Trying to understand them is so draining - you are absolutely right. Recognising the stuff that they are displaying is so necessary for my health - my survival - my ability to move on - even if it means letting go of certain people who have been in my life for a long time. If I am in the person's company and I am not feeling absolutely awesome about being with them - it is time to move on - even if it means being alone. I need to free up space in my life for the right type of people to come in
Thank you for this! My cover was my husband of 30 years! Very covert, never apologized for any wrong and was always telling me I was being sensitive and not making sense. After so many years of being ignored and being made to feel like I didn't matter while at the same time doing everything for everyone else he died. I watched your family cult video as well and that hit home too. Everyone loved my husband he was such a nice guy but I saw the other side no one else saw, so now after he's died I'm the pariah! No one will ever defame his memory by listening to me or agreeing with my experience. My one daughter, daddy's girl, is following the family line and dismissing me as unimportant and won't acknowledge me as mom but considers his side aunts as mom. I'm just feeling awful after learning all this. There's nothing left for me!
That's terrible hope things are better for you now ❤
The narcissist's "Overt or Covert" habits strongly depend on their "successes or failures" in the way they abuse people. I have seen a highly intelligent narc become cocky and becomes more overt. Also I have seen an "Overt Narc" become more covert over time. They learn..they are a constantly evolving beast.
Thank you Meredith for your light and love and for all you do to help victims of narcissism. Debbie Mirza, I bought your book soon after leaving my narc husband of 23 years. Your book is fantastic!! It's the ONLY book out there that totally and succinctly captures the covert passive-aggressive narc's behavior. I began the book yellow-highlighting everything that related to my experience...i finally gave up because every page would've been yellow!! It was tremendously helpful and healing for me, THANK YOU for helping those of us dealing with these insidious, covert, under the radar, oh so subtle demonic evil brain disordered subhumans. Love and gratitude to you both, thank you for all you're doing to help the community!!
"They say they're sorry about little insignificant things..." Absolutely! This was a big thing he used to gaslight. Apologizing for dropping something or misspeaking in conversation... totally insignificant "throw-away" sorry. But when it came to a big thing, and he was in the middle of telling me how he was "tired of apologizing" (lol) and I would say "what are you talking about, you never apologize for anything," guess what got thrown in my face?! "I just apologized for dropping that cup yesterday! I say I'm sorry all the time!" That was the *only* reason he bothered to say sorry for the little stuff, so he could *claim* he apologized "all the time." Ofc, in reality even the insignificant sorrys were very few and far between and usually when he was ramping up to a blow-up. He was very strategic about what he "apologized" for, and you can bet is was NEVER for anything meaningful or that would show him accepting responsibility.
So spot-on!
I have experienced several different kinds of covert narcissists, but the most severe one was a genius at veiled put - downs. After several years of my learning to let these just slide, they became more pointed and nasty. Finally, I started to become nasty in return. She couldn't take it, but said, "Now we're getting somewhere." Having known her for about fifteen years, I realized that she needed to know how important she was to you. How much would you put up with, and could she count on you to show signs of being an emotional SLAVE. That, I think, now looking back, is what she desperately needed in her relationships. (Not only with me) Her closest "friends" had demonstrated that they could be completely controlled, and would put up with tons of abuse just to keep her around. They'd get emotional and lose it with her. She'd stay calm. (She was very proud of this) This, she liked to let me know about. Once I learned that, I began to feel very wrong towards myself for letting early slights slide. I never felt I needed to lose my cool around her though. That's not my style at all. Of course, there were periods of time when we had fun, and there were no issues, or you couldn't keep this up for fifteen years, but by the time I started to give her some of her own medicine, I knew it was finished, and I dropped her. She was FURIOUS!
It's all about control game to them.
I love this video so much! I found it incredibly helpful as my teenage boys have started to relationally punish me and disrespect me after spending more time with their father. Its hard for me to stand up to them and set boundaries because they are being told I am controlling. I don't want to come off as controlling to them. But don't want to be walked on. Thank you for the great advice. I will be watching again!
You ladies ask the best questions ❤
Survivors sometimes forget to ask
Or it feels too silly to ask
So thank you ladies, for making this such a comfortable platform🎉
Mirza,
Thanks for writing the book. I read it. I been looking for material on the subject matter for a while. You captured it all. I am definitely married to one. Been trying to figure it out for years (30 loooooong years).
It has not been a fun experience at all, but rather one filled with “combat communications” that never made sense to me.
You know when you are dealing with one when you are being twisted up like a pretzel every time for things that you clearly understand. They turn you upside down at any moment.
Typically you walk away questioning what just occurred in a conversations.
Mine put me down in subtle slick ways in front of people, leaving me to question my self-confidence all the time. I often walk away from conversations asking “why did she say that?”
Definitely an exhaustive relationship that sucks all the positive energy out of you.
30 years . Then he became seriously ill, his son took over his books, it was a very wealthy family, I discovered he had removed me from the will and did not provide for me. He lrecovered and I had to fight him in court. Beware, I lived with him 30 years and I was totally blindsided. He was leaving me with nothing.. had he died I would have been done. He almost destroyed my life.... beware
Thank you for your videos, both of you. I am only 3 months divorced from a covert narcissist, and I am increasingly aware of how lucky I am that HE ended it. Whew. An example to share: I am passionate about maps and navigation(I'm a cool nerd for sure). He learned that quickly, nicknamed me Map Girl, and celebrated it to others as a fun superpower. He then exploded every time I kept him from missing an exit, or when I would ask "Which way do you want to go to New Jersey today?". He ended up forbidding me to contribute in any way to how we went anywhere. I still get very tense when I get in a car to go on a trip, even with my best friend. So much to unpack...
Took me 50 years to figure it out I have low contact, when I do have to have contact I have a very thick wall in place but the next day I am emotionally drained, body aches, functioning in a fog and easily brought to tears. Takes me 48 to 72 hours to recoup.
I love seeing you 2 together! I recently found Debbie’s book, and I’ve been following Meredith at the onset 2 years ago. Thank you both so much. ♥️
When I asked my ex Narc to go to therapy you would have thought I threw holy water on the devil !!!
might be one in the same! lol
Thank you ladies you girls are always spot on❤️
Thank you so much both of you. I found that one of the things I was most attracted to about my ex was he is very intelligent. Unfortunately, it made him a great covert/maybe sociopath. Even though yes, very intelligent, wow, he was so manipulative, and somehow managed to always pick a fight when something important was happening in my life, to sabotage (among other problems). That is also common. At one point, I told him if he ever threatened divorce again, it would happen, because I was not ok living in a relationship in jeopardy- too much stress. Well, he did it (to punish me for other boundary-setting, that putting me down was not ok, naturally) and he was shocked, because he had lost control. Instead of changing and going back and removing my boundaries, I said, ok, then that is your decision and I accept it. He was never able to put the mask back on again, changed into a completely different person, extremely emotionally abusive and cruel. It has been 6 months now. He has tried to hoover a few times, and when met with any kind of boundary setting (mostly I maintain no contact but every so often it is necessary) he quickly hurls some more abuse and retreats. It has been an incredible learning experience and Meredith, your videos really helped so much to get thru it. I now realize the things to look out for, and am much more clear about what is ok and not ok in a relationship.
What she said about noticing a slow decline in yourself is such a true statement with covert narcissists. I was in a 2 year relationship with this guy and noticed a change in myself, but I had depression prior to dating him. So I actually didn’t realize the decline was because of him until after the break-up. Thank goodness I was alert enough to see the red flags that he did present and get out of that relationship when I did.
Minute 32~ It's very important to know what love, peace, self approval, feel like in your body and to pay attention when this starts to change when in relationship with someone new. Feeling eternally grateful.
Meredith, I swear you must have been my husband's wife previous to me! been binge- listening to your videos all weekend while I type up my study guide for finals next week. I am 43 and going back to college to begin a new career which will enable me to be independent, self sufficient, and secure. Listening to your videos, I can relate to nearly all you share, it's like you've lived with the exact same people as myself and it blows my mind! I just have to laugh because you're dead on point, I laugh at who I used to be falling right into their traps, the predictiblilty of their pitiful and desperate behavior, and I laugh to live and grey rock on another day!!!Thank you for all the sincerity, great content, and for not giving up. Blessings to you!
Love this video! So eye opening! I was married to a covert narcissist for 33 years - been divorced for 6 months. My kids are all adults. I’m starting to see that at the same time he’s “discarding” me he’s “love bombing” my kids. It’s creating a gulf between me and my kids because “dad’s doing so good” but they don’t know how he treated me just a few hours ago. I can’t go no contact with him since we work in the same office.
Also wanted to say I’m so grateful to have found your channel. Thank you for all you do!!! ❤️
Stumbling across your first video together was the changing point in my life. Everything that you guys described were all of the signs and feelings that I couldn’t put into words. THANK YOU BOTH for sharing your experiences and insight!!! True healing for me might take a long time, but I’m well on my way. Finally having validation and truth from others who’ve lived this nightmare, was the push I needed to leave my CN and start over!!!
So much wisdom here. Thank you for another golden video.
Oscar Williamson , thank you! You are precious, too.
I had to pause at 5:47 of this video, wow did that hit home!! I had a situation with my husband just recently, let me back up first. I've been with my husband for 9 years. In the very beginning I tried to "help" him with his insecurities...years later, "what do u mean gaslighting son? What is it?" Wow!! I am married to a what? Researching this narcissist thing, yes 😢 there is it. Thank God I'm not crazy! Fast forward to the other day. I told my husband how I felt that my youngest daughter and I, who is an adult, have a strange relationship. How she finds fault in everything I say and do. How it feels like she hates me!' It was silent in the truck for a few minutes and then he says "I think it would be fun to go trailing up on the island with said youngest daughter and her boyfriend." What the hell???
My covert has 3 college degrees...one in Psychology...He never used them for a career...married 8 yrs.
I believe he got them all
Just to learn how to play headgames better...He had me fooled for 7 of the 8 yrs. Once i confronted him( because i didnt know not to) One year of physical abuse and
Getting me charged with destruction of property for breaking his windshield...when he had sat on top of me stabbing a knife all around my head...and hit me and kicked me and broken four phones and i stupidly never called police. I broke his 160$ windsheild...got a charge...and paid 800$ and Anger classes....
Yes...i literally told him innocently i just found out he was a Covert Narcissist... i asked him if hed ever been diagnosed... im thinking its an illness like bi polar. What a lesson I learned. 2 years nearly seperated.
A few mos ....no contact...with about 6 prior attempts...
So sorry you had to go through that. Keep the no contact going and never look back. It gets greater later. It really does. Surround yourself around like minded people, take care of yourself and the rest will follow. Much love to you.
Oh my...this is so horrible. Keep strong and keep taking care of yourself. Looking back there are many ways I could have evidenced the N behaviour, but was in a state of fear and defence I guess. I left quietly and things are slowly coming to light. But you do have to get to the point where you don't care if anyone else understands. You know what happened to you and you must take care of yourself. Meredith's podcast on boundaries has changed my life. I will continue to listen to it over and over for strength and truth on healthy relationships.
Get help....counseling. .... Im going threw it too....Please stay away......❤and strong....they Will HOOVER......
Thank you amazing ladies!! You are amazing. This is deeply helpful. As I guide women on the path of Twin Flame Awakening, the issue of narcissistic abuse/codependency etc comes up regularly. It seems to be a huge part of the necessary healing and empowerment on the path to what I call Selfhood and Sovereignty. Self-love leading to unconditional love. THANK YOU ❤️
Great advice about the parenting issue, I really appreciate it lady's.
Also loved the love bombing and the way how Debbie explained the N/C aproach .
Thank you ladies for answering my question! You are amazing ❤
Great content, thank you! Much of this has resonated with me. I found myself writing in my journal, I'm 50 and I'm finally trusting myself. I discovered that I don't have to wait for my husband to defend me. I am just calm, and if the person starts to gossip, I say right away that I don't want to talk about it and I don't want to know about it. That stopped them. But it came from a place of peace and authenticity. I was kind, and set a new standard for conversation/relationship. In the past I have expected others to see it, but all it got me was blamed for something and disrespected. I've been able to go no contact without guilt, and gray rock as needed. Very helpful tools. So, all I want to say it that I am learning. I'm not perfect. But I have grown and I'm working on being kind. Thanks again for your insights.
I'm so grateful to you both! I feel so validated and seen!!! I didn't realize until this video that Meredith has a book too. I came across Debbie's interview with Meredith and bought her book first. I have so much love for you both and appreciation in helping many heal. Earth angels are among us and you are definitely two of them! :-) 🥰
You two are so helpful! Thank you so much for having these discussions on covert narcissism. That one one statement on the difference between nice and the layers required to be kind is so poignant!!!!! Keep informing the public and the wisdom you two are gleaning!!!!
What confuses me with a covert narcissist is how can they be so nice and sweet and then 'consciously' be so twisted and gas lighting the next. Denying their own behaviour : when they can be in a group or interpersonal relationship with others and friends and be so incredibly aware & full of healthy comments addressing such behaviour in others.
Because they are evil and crazy
Hola mera que maravilloso este video!! Todo los que has subido también!! Gracias infinitas por tan valioso material!! Bendiciones
I’m so strong not only for me but absolutely for my son for when he decides to see me again
This has been the best video I have seen on the Covert narcissist. I MUST share that I have seen my N spouse become more covert over the 25 years of our marriage. Where he used to shout, break things and once attempted minor physical abuse he now is calm, quiet, collected and cunning in his ways. His vocation? Priest. He has spent much of our married life getting more education. He has several Masters and a PhD. Clearly i can see now he felt the need for this acquiring of knowledge for his defence. And, as you both said, an overt N CAN BECOME MORE COVERT OVER TIME BY ACQUIRING INTELLIGENCE. As stated in your talk, he even has read myriads of marriage and psychological books. He very clearly can state a text book definition of his behaviour while accusing me of it. It is maddening.
Another behaviour you both discussed was how the covert N develops the perfect humility. As a priest, this behaviour really plays on the congregation and his superiors. Interestingly, when I first left my spouse, he met with his boss and challenged him saying 'if he was so bad and what I was saying was true he should be removed from the priesthood'. This was an intimidation tactic that kept the powers that be at bay. His humility sounds so convincing. Again, it is text book, he knows exactly what to say. When I have pointed out his actions against his words my spouse would get more overt through anger and physically intimidate by getting in my space.
I learned something this week while reading a book called The Servant by James C Hunter; he says: INTENTIONS - ACTIONS = SQUAT and INTENTIONS + ACTIONS = WILL. This struck a cord with me. This formula is the basis of all relationships. Intentions are nothing unless you will them to action through love; whether a general love of humanity or a friendship/filial love of a partner. . The bottom line for me with my spouse is, 'you say this but you you do that' and it just isn't acceptable.
Thank you so so much for the work you are both doing!
I just ordered Debbie's book on covert narcissists. Looking forward to reading it. So much wisdom from both of you! Thank you thank you thank you!!!!
Love the "el afilador" in the back lol. Also yeah this is incredible. Thank you for the info, now I know.
The narcissist that is at this point in and out of my life via text message mostly comes across as someone who is super Zen and everything I do is wrong and everything that he tells me that I should do or feel or think is right. He thinks he’s covert but he’s not. And thanks to videos like this I see right through him. Because of my loneliness and being alone after my divorce for the last 20 years I’ve let this craziness go on for way too long. Four long months of this is enough for me. And this whole time it’s been about him. I know so much about what he wants me to know about him. And he knows absolutely very little about me and my life. I did try to squeeze in my thoughts and feelings and share experiences with him but he wanted nothing to do with that. And one of his things of making me shut up when we were out having wine or something like that was you’re so beautiful just shut up and kiss me. That irked me to no end. And at first I let it go and now I am finding myself or have found myself guarded into the things that I say to him around him or even texting him. I can’t live like this. This is too much. In my 47 years this is my first time being in a relationship with someone like this besides my father whom I had no choice in the matter. I hope what little I’ve said and there’s so much more ...that this helps someone reading this. Because it’s better to feel a little bit of loneliness from time to time rather than to be around this abusive up and down always worried kind of relationship. It’s so toxic. I am going to delete his number today and I am going to also block his number thanks to the Apple phone you can do that. And I really hope that if he comes around that I’m strong enough to resist it… His charms. Wish me luck Beautiful people.
I'm SO GRATEFUL for you both... I have been digging... trying to find someone who understood what was happening to me... THANK YOU
Irony, sarcasm, big red flag.
Great, great, great video.....so loved it. You both demonstrated "real" love, respect, and affection......"genuine" empathy and caring. I really liked how you included both genders in this topic....as we really can only feel our own gender's response, so it is great to see it from the aspect of the other gender. Women tend to "workshop" these types of things more, where men have been taught to pride themselves, on their ability to figure things out for themselves, and that seeking help, guidance, or understanding, through "workshoping" these things with their male friends, or family, is a sign of weakness, and frowned upon....especially in more "macho" cultures. The bit about setting "assertive boundaries", with your kids, through separation and divorce, and explaining the difference between healthy, and unhealthy behaviours, was awesome. Thank you both, for making this video...would love to see more like this..... and, as the wonderful John Bradshaw says..."You can never fail, with DETAIL".......when you give real life examples of interactions, people can really relate. ♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥♡♥
Mother has been very competitive, jealous and obsessed about her childhood. She was extremely verbally and physically abusive toward us. As an adult I've had to learn to ignore her "insinuation" that she trying to offer helpful advise. When we are in a social situation she constantly kisses me and tells me how much she loves me. It reinforces in others and my children that "I" have a problem because all she is trying to do is love me. I avoid her as much as possible and that hurts.
The covert-aggressive form of narcissism is a double edged sword.
Narcs will first try to frame the rules of the game in such a way, that their covert aggression does not count as
wow! yes! what a good point to make. they frame their actions as fair play and healthy actions (that you might initially respond with) as "bad" or "wrong" or "unhealthy". they change the framework so their disfunction is presented as good.
really good point!
Trump is a perfect example of an overt, Bill and Hillary Clinton are perfect examples of coverts.
Bingo!
AJ HILL yes very good
Inner Integration yes...I agree great examples....spot on....right on........BINGO!!!! DJDEBUSA SAYS WELCOME TO THE MATRIX........ NEO LOVES TRINITY!!!!♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆♡♡XOXO
Obama and Mitchell are covert. They both said they want to create millions of themselves. They think too highly of themselves
I’ve always thought Obama is a covert type. Super intelligent, sophisticated, eloquent and charming. He does a great job hiding his scandals and repeating again and again how he has no scandals. Also the Nobel Peace Prize right before he started to bomb 7 countries was classic 😂 then no one noticed he was dropping 26,000 bombs per year by 2016.
Excellent point about them saying sorry... They use it as a tool to show you how you should do it. It's like training a dog.. "This is how I want you to do it"... But do it more and better.
Excellent point!
Currently reading The Covert Passive Aggressive narcissist book right now.
Left my ex when I was 10 Weeks Pregnant because his covert became overt and I started noticing all the covert things he had done.
My sons 4 months old now. I have to see my ex every other weekend for an hour to an hour and half.
After we split his family made him go to behavioral therapy because they found out how bad he really treated me.
Now he acts different.... But I don’t trust it. I think it’s all an act.
I’ll be 22 soon and it’s been a year since the split.... And I’m terrified to get back to dating because I’m scared of having a repeat..
YOUR A SMART ONE....GOOD FOR YOU...
NICI LOVE thank you.
Some of my family questions me about it. They can’t seem to understand how “I’d let something like that happen to begin with”. Because they “thought I was smarter then this”....
So I really do appreciate you saying that.
@@anne9859 he would have duped any one of them as well. No one escapes the first time, and often the second or third time, especially if they are different types or your relationships are different. You are wiser now, and that's what matters.
I had a similar experience except I didn't have kids with him and he was mostly covert. I got with him when I was 13 and I left him when I was 19. He had conditioned our mutual friends so they thought he was a victim bc he would start stuff in private and then when I would finally react it would be in public. When I left, he started a smear campagn about me and I lost any remaining friends I had, which wasn't very many. The only way I was able to get into a relationship, despite the fear of something like this happening again, was by trusting my gut feeling. It felt wrong at first because part of being with a narcissist is ignoring your gut feelings in order to stay with them.
You both look beautiful and amazing thoughts as always. Thank you! Love and hugs!!
I think that the CN I just left, was very deliberate with his subtle and not so subtle put downs. He once told me that he had figured me out easy peasy.
I had been second guessing myself until I watched the other video you did about trusting your intuition. Paying attention to that knot in your stomach and something feeling off, or when feeling confused tune into your body and your constants.
You are great and beautiful girls! Thank you very much for all your help! God bless you!🙏
17 was when I awaken now I m 20 ...four years now n seriously even tho it four years dealing with extreme post stress n anxiety but even tho you experience all these emotions..u know it worth it cux I have heal slowly so breaking free is HARD but soo worth it..love u all survivors!
Interesting conversation. Have not heard some of this before, although i recognize the situation described in which the mask comes off, and covert become more overt once you've called their bluff or they realize you are on to their game, and the discard has begun. It's no one you recognize.
Coverts develope the intellegence through adaptive behaviors
Yes!
i just got out ladies of a five year relationship with a covert~~ I love all the work you do. I hope to help others in my future. I am so grateful for your life experience and sharing this very important informaton to help those who are empath giving people who never understood why they couldn't get ahead in life while caring for their narc parent and then a narc partner.
Dear God, the lightbulb is slowly going on for me. I knew my mother was some kind of a histrionic/ Narc spectrum. I used to tease her to “be kind to the humans cause they were doing the best they can!” She was more overt. She didn’t give a crap what people thought of her opinions of others. My sister and I were always cleaning up after her outbursts. Her ‘hurricane’ always left a wake. Also. I’m starting to see my M-I-L falls in to this covert type. I could never make her happy. Every time my husband or I would be excited about things going well in our life, she would triangulate and redirect the conversation to the ‘golden child’ daughter in the family. No one could live up to her image. (She did not like this portrayal of herself from the MIL). Or redirect to her church or her opinions. I endured her subtle barbs and innuendoes for YEARS.
A trait I am seeing now, and would like to share, is this idea that the narcissist, whether covert or overt, does not see themselves as belonging to the human race. They are above it or they are perfect or they stand outside of it somehow. They are more than human. They might be super religious even, but there is a self-righteous aspect they cannot escape.
Wow, these videos are super enlightening. Thank you!
My ex BF was a therapist with a strong CN signature. His mother was a blazing (c)overt and thus he became the covert in his relationships. He knew so much about human nature that it was a very hard case of seeing what the heck was going on. Manipulating all over the fucking place, feeling left with the blame for his cheating and the way it still affects me. I am still fighting with my recovery, two years since then. What you have said through this video opened my eyes enormously, made me feel like my feelings were acknowledged, and I now know why he was acting the way he did. I am NOT crazy for pointing these things out to other people who doesn not know what a CN is, and thus don't believe my experiences were THAT harsh. This is the ultimate worst experience at alle, not being recognized or heard for what it was.... Keep doing what you do, it is GOOD 👌
Thank you for validating/seeing what male victims go through 🌻❤️
Thank you for acknowledging the incidence in which this occurs for men. I Just made it through a divorce after 24 yrs. of marriage and have never experienced more craziness. My Advice: Never try to mediate on your own, no matter how well you know your partner; you’ll get fleeced-primarily because you’ll just want/need to end the insanity and pain. When I asked our mediator in private for his assessment of our situation, he said, “after thirty years of mediation...this one is memorable.” I laughed and gave him permission to include it in a book.
Get an attorney who understands. I was so lucky to find a local therapist, Gary Klein, while searching UA-cam, who really understands this dynamic. Your audiences would be very well served to listen to the link I’ve attached. In fact, Gary would be a great interview for either of you if you want to speak more specifically about navigating legal pitfalls and more. Richard Grannon references Gary’s work often. He’s a great guy....highly knowledgeable...and offers very practical advice! I cant recommend him enough to this community.
ua-cam.com/video/tHNYlYuaxcY/v-deo.html
Excellent discussion ladies! Having gone/going through recovery from being in a relationship with a narcissist (2 years since the discard), I recognise everything you were sharing, and subsequently learned that my former partner was (I believe) a covert narcissist. Yes, the mask did drop once or twice, and particularly post-discard. A good observation about them apologising, and their 'pretend empathy'. In spite of the ever-running commentary by my former partner that she was 'all emotion' and 'functions through intuition'. However, I found her emotion was outward going and self-serving, not perceptive and responsive to others, unless an outburst to being disagreed with, criticised, or challenged - I definitely sensed a disconnection from real emotional engagement.
OMG, you two are so cute. Strong, awesome women! Thank you for everything you do. Great video.
They are vengefull souls who feel lonely, so dont pity... they experienced a disconnect, absence to their other half (man & woman). "the weak in courage is strong in cunning"