New Vs Vintage OUTPUT TRANSFORMER in the same Vintage Marshall Super Lead
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- Comparison between a 100W 1973 Dagnall C2668 OT and a new 2018 Dagnall 100W OT. They’re both played in the same Marshall 1973 Super Lead (71 specs). Daniel Forsberg and I are using a 2008 Gibson Les Paul R9.
The new one has much more high end than the old one. I wonder if the old one used to sound like that when it was new....
I was wondering the same!
My thoughts exactly!
Must invent time machine before we gonna check out.
The old one seemed to be a little less harsh. The new one has more defenition in the upper mids but I know from experience that can get a little fatiguing on the ears after a while. They all sound great. I would not hesitate to buy the new one.
Thanks
@@JohanSegeborn I'm a bit late on this but this video raised a question I was hoping you could answer. In the video you state that it's a '73 that's been modified to '71 specifications. However, the chart you used in your video "The Evolution of Marshall Super Lead" indicates 1971-1973 Marshall Super Leads as having the same specifications. Could you clarify this please? Thanks!
Another great video my friend. Very instructive for all us who's searching for guitar knowledge. Every single video who you make for this youtube channel contains great advices always. Greetings from your friend from Brazil.
Thanks my friend, I’m glad to hear that!
I'm assuming the EQ was left the same for each output transformer. How about EQ'ing the new one to sound like the old one to see how close it gets the the old transformer's tone. The same EQ'ing test can be done vice versa to test getting the Old OT sounding like New OT.
Another idea is to test multiple new OTs against the old one to see which new OT is the best buy on the market.
As always great videos. I have learned a lot on this channel. Thanks for all of your hard work. Cheers.
This sortof buries the myth that ‘without the original OT a vintage amp is worthless’. Both sound great. I bought a ‘69 JMP 1987 with a replaced 1985 Dagnall OT. Got it for a reasonable price, because other interested parties backed out because of the replaced OT…. It sounds incredibly good, needless t say. Don’t believe the hype - there are MANY (MANY!) other parts in a circuit that influence the sound besides OT’s (not even counting speakers…). Great video Johan, as always! Thank you 👍
Would the original '69 transformer have been a Drake instead of Dagnall? I know the 100 watt amps were.
Original unmolested amps fetch higher prices because of collector value, not for tonal reasons. Tone is subjective.
The original OT would have been a Drake type 784 139.
Thank you so much for the video brother! I find it interesting that if you told everyone the opposite of the transformers, most people would say, the old one sounds much more aggressive and has much more snarl and bark with nice upper-mids...
People are programmed to believe older is better and original is always best… I do like the 2668 transformer more, I’m just saying, if it was the other way around, people would say the new one sounds dead and muddy, LOL
I have 2 50w drake transformers i took out of a Marshall 9000 power amp i had in the 80s. I was going to build a 2204 and a Laney supergroup, I have Mil spec torrid PTs with extra taps wound for me by by Avel Lindberg and designed by my mate Steve who is a studio tech here in South Wales and he has some very interesting opinions about amps as he usually works on Vintage desks and outboard.
Since getting the mini jubilee head though i really don't know any more, it does everything i personally want from a Marshall circuit. I think i would recommend this amp over any others to players who have never had a Marshall as it covers so many circuits when set up right, and for most it is loud enough for what we do. Time to downsize for me so looking more to just have 1 Marshall a Vox and a blackface Princeton, all small watt amps.
Steve the tech has a jubilee of his own, an 80s 50w smallbox, it is slightly modded but full of selected Blackburn factory Mullards. Along with most of his gear he makes or sets up it is out permanently on loan to producers and them along with me agree that it is the best Marshall we ever heard. So big shout out to Steve at LazyLizardLabs.
Sorry for the long post but i think this might save some people some money in the long run who are thinking of getting their first Marshall.
As always keep doing what you do Johan all the best from South Wales.
As usual Johan, a helpful and useful video. Thanks for spending your money and altering your gear to show us the difference.
A fine comparison, love both of course! Thanks for sharing brothers ! Be Well Johan!
Thanks Brother, have a great weekend!
Wow that is a noticeable difference, and was thinking about what old parts vs new parts would sound like. Great video Johan keep em coming.
Thanks Jake, I’m glad to hear that!
The old one sounded more vintage and was hotter, warmer and fatter IMO. I really love how Johan teaches us about things we didn't know about guitar tone. Now we can spend our bucks on things that really impacts the sound.
Thanks Torarin! Have a great weekend!
Great tone, damn! Stock sounds better to me ears. Cheers JS, and thanks for another great demo, brother!
Cheers Brother!
Johan....you got tone. You’ve cracked my eardrums sweet spot. Thanks for the tips.
Cool! For Metal, i'd say the new one is best, but for playing ACDC and such, the stock one sounds better.
Thanks! Yeah the style is definitely interesting here. And we’re suckers for old-dude Rocknroll around here! :-)
The new transformer sounds cold and dry the stock sounds much better when a transformer gets used a lot it's kind of like when you break in a speaker it sounds better the copper wire in the transformer has positive and negative electrons and protons that when new are disorganized and when you run an electric current the protons and electrons start to harmonize becoming organized and balanced allowing the guitar signal to be more rich and full cheers ! , !
Is the mod in this video or wil it be in the next video ? Thankx
The vintage one was a lot tighter, warmer, and had more natural presence in the 5khz and on range, whereas the new one is super bright, squishy, and a bit looser. Both stellar tones, but for different styles of playing. The difference kind of reminds me of the tonal differences between the warmer late 60's plexi's and the brighter metalface super leads in the 70's. My favorite is the vintage one, personally! Only on this channel can plexi fans find this type of tonal comparison! Great side by side, Johan!
Thanks Sean, it’s great to hear that!
Great to see Daniel on your channel Johan! Forsberg=tone. I agree with some of the other commenters, the stock vintage transformer sounded warmer and "rounder" than the new one. Both sounded good, but the new one was a little spikey and harsh compared to the vintage one. Have a great weekend guys and rock on!
You too brother! Cheers
jcoulter43 thank you! 😊
I stopped at 0:03 to write this comment...I don't even know what the video will give as a result, but this is amazing. I often read that transformers are the heart of an amp's tone, but never had a chance to try different ones...thanks for your work Johan, you are amazing!
I actually thought there would be a bigger difference. Another terrific and informative video. As always your tone is amazing with either transformer.
I'm looking forward to hearing you do a review of the new Marshall Studio 20/5 watt amps. I've seen other reviews, but they didn't know how to properly mic an amp the way you do.
Both seem to get the job done. Perceptible differences can probably be tweaked with the amp's tone knobs or an EQ pedal.
The newer was actually significantly harder to get a good groove with
The old one has a little more mid bloom. The new one a little more treble bite. Both sounded very good and close. Cheers.
Cheers Beau!
Fun to see you both in the same video! Great Job!
pleximaster thanks! 😊
Thanks man! I love your Pleximaster Amps!
another cool and interesting video Johan!!!!!!
Thanks man! Any news on your amazing amps?
Johan I am working on some smaller versions and a dr103 type one but with pure tone features and behaviour
I'm just here for the sweet tones and awesome riffs! Both sound great, and it was hard to pick which I liked better. The older one seemed a little more bass and sometimes clarity, while the newer one seemed to have a little more bite. I'd happily use the whole rig either way.
Johan you've taken this to new levels. ACDC. Great choice.
Man I love these videos. Do you have a specific signal path (or tips) that capture the vintage tone? I hear more room (or liveliness) and brightness than any other demos online. I know db are important but you seem able to capture basic amp tonalities and their differences more for classic rock waaaaayyy better than anyone else on YT.
this video is one of many that showcases how much more awesome johan is than all of his guests. don't get me wrong, they're all talented, but johan is in a league of his tone.
Thanks for that !!!! Great job as usual !
Thanks Lenny!
Great video! Love all your comparison videos. Can you do a video where you compare different caps like zoso, mustard, and orangedrops?
Almost identical. I give the edge to the new one. Awesome video! Thanks Johan.
Thanks!
The new one was too bright for my taste, as you probably guessed. The old one was GREAT!
Can't wait to find out what the mod is...
Thanks Bengan! I know you like your amps full and dark! Have a great weekend my friend! Cheers
@@JohanSegeborn Same to you. Doc!
Both sound good, however to my ears the stock transformer's edges are more rounded off & the sound is smoother. No wrong doing! Thanks for the vid
Thanks!
The '73 sounds warmer/rounder, the new one has more highs and presence. I was aspecting to ear a bigger difference in tone actually that to me means they did a very good job with the new one...great comparison as always!
Thanks Davide!
The new transformer sounds like the presence control was turned up. I like the clerity and definition of the new transformer. That said, the vintage transformer has a certain smoothness to it and might sound better than the new transformer with a strat or Tel plugged in. I'm not sure how anyone could fail to hear the major tonal differences between the two transformers as it's very obvious...unless of course they are listening on a mobile phone micro speaker. It's almost as big a tonal change as that you would hear with different speakers. If I had the choice, I would prefer the new transformer for note clerity and punch especially in a live setting.
Colin McDonald Presence was on 10 the whole time.
You think you can hear a difference when you're watching the clip, and yet as soon as I go just to my ears, I couldn't tell which was which anymore
Great guitar tone is the sum of many relatively small factors, but this is one of the most important ones. Probably the second most important factor after speakers
@@JohanSegeborn You've definitely shown the importance of speakers before! I guess today's experience is just because I'm a bass player; once it gets over 5k, I can't hear anything anyways ;)
Cheers ;-)
sounded like more note clarity and definition with the new transformer
Thanks Bruce
10th 😅
New one sounds more present, brighter all round. And I prefer it.
Hi, Johan!
The new one is very beautiful! For classic rock its really good. And for modern too. Could be fun to check it out with Telecaster!
Have a nice weekend!
Zigfrid
You have a great one too my friend!
damn... now i need to stock on transformers aswell?
Hahaha ;-)
Sounded excellent
Thanks Ron!
Ace as always Johan, don’t know what planet I’ve been on, Dagnall transformers have passed me by. I’ve been swapping out to Mercury Magnetics transformers and as shown here the older the transformer the more realistic vintage sound presents itself. Not sure if they need ‘running in’ like speakers but so far my experience of new transformers is they sound good in fact really good but just miss out on that something extra an older version does. Great vid thanks.
Slightly more gain and more upper mids in the new one.
The new one has way more high-end fizz. Old one wins for me!
Thanks Jack, I certainly agree :-)
Almost unnoticeable. Perhaps a hair more high end and less compression in the new one. But not enough to go through any trouble for.
I actually really preferred the old one :-)
Johan Segeborn so did I Johan, so did I
I think the new one has a bit more "snarl/growl" to it... Like a wolf letting you know you're going to be a tasty meal!
Hahaha! Cheers Sam!
The new one seems to have a wider frequency response toward the high end. My guess is that there is less capacitance in the winds perhaps due to different magnet wire or the way it's wound.
I'm pretty sure that a stock OT in 72 until about 76 is a Dagnall C2373. The C2668 didn't arrive until late 70's (hence the higher model number --> C1998 --> C2373 --> C2668 etc.)
I prefer the newer one. I would rather have more clarity and roll some off than not have it.
The newer one is indeed brighter but I think I the old one is more complex
Ah yes the second time I have heard that little ditty Johan in your demos Good stuff 👍
Guess I would go for the new one.
To me it sounds like the 73 was more rounded and smooth in the top end. The modern transformer has a brittle or harsh top end with some unpleasant harmonic undertones really high in the spectrum. I’m only listening on cheap ear buds though. Great sounds none the less. Your playing makes the guitar sound much warmer and richer than your friend though. He has a very heavy right hand.
Thanks, yeah the amp is set up for my playing (light touch) Daniel who strums pretty hard would indeed benefit even more from other settings. But I loved his tone here nonetheless. Here’s
Super interesting!!
Thanks Fabrizio!
quite an interesting experiment, the new one is a flyshit brighter, saturation level seems exactly the same.I've got a 74 100 jmp here and have been playing the same games, I've used a merren 12000 series o/t, a 500pf bright cap ( from 5000pf) and a power xformer with 460v on the plate, stunning results..really smooths out the slight harsh tone of these early 70's marshalls.
Thanks, yeah 500 bright cap takes it down to a useable level
@@JohanSegeborn for some tone generating education, next time throw a fender twin o/t in there johan
The older one is more 3D and rounder sounding, much better in my opinion!!! great video
Thanks Jorge!
The new one seemed a bit more bright and crunchy. Great video!
the 73 for me,looks like all modern equipment has that harshness in the highs and slightly scooped mids which is obviously missing the point in a great guitar sound.BIG THANKS for your top notch experiences striving for perfection in this guitar sound journey of ours...
Thanks, I’m glad to hear that!
73 was slightly warmer, but not a drastic difference really... probably wouldn't notice without the side-by-side video edits.
This video needs to be updated for 2023 now that Marshall no longer uses Dangall transformers and has moved to Vietnamese made transformers in their flagship vintage reissue line! PLease do a comparison Johan
Ive never seen anyone do a transformer shootout even though many so-called Marshall tone experts have claimed it is as key as anything else in the amp. I’ve tended to agree that it is a significant factor. Smaller ‘undersized’ transformers are supposed to distort differently and easier than larger transformers for example. As commenters have said, the 73 was smoother, darker; newer one had more transient attack. You’d want the one with the biggest midrange bloom for the kind of tones that were being played because those mids are hard to artificially add in later without messing up something else. If you did this kind of shootout again, I’d be interested in every transformer comparison you had available, large - small - handwound - partridge - dagnall - RS - New - vintage etc. .... maybe you could use a reamp file to eliminate any playing variables. If you made 24 bit wave files of the results available that’d be great too.
Yeah that’d be interesting indeed. I’ll keep it in mind
Same sound for my ears, thx Johan !!!!
Thanks man
Johan... Sound very similar. How did it sound in the room? Did you notice any sensitivity changes to note?
Revelry 1969 it felt and sounded quite different!
I guess I need to check on the monitors .The work headphones don't have enough definition to hear the difference..:)
Not much difference. If the old one was bad and needed replaced, I would not feel guilty of “ruining” the amp.
I prefer the old one and it’s much easier to play but the new one is certainly good enough
The new one seemed the slightest bit brighter to me...maybe there is more difference in the room but for the average person I think they would be happy with either in their amp and for those who care a blindfold test should be done a couple of hours after their initial hearing to make sure it's worth the time and money to find a vintage one over a brand new one that probably has some sort of warranty with it and costs less money...I love seeing these sort of tests but feel sorry for people who waste huge amounts of time and money trying to get a sound that they could probably get with a little bit of knob adjustment and more time playing instead of gear searching...
Pre 75 are vintage , post are hifi type windings, if I remember...
Hifi is more linear and have more on freq extremes.
It sounds to me new ones as more high and old more more low, which makes sense considering how records sounds then and now, and what we used to listen them on. Old one sounds better for this kind of old school hard rock.
Thanks Sami!
did you take the end bells off the transformer to see the coil bobbin ? The old one may be paper and the new on might be plastic. The mil thickness could be the culprit in the tonality between the 2 or the copper composition in the wire. Dagnall had the original specs so they wrapped up the same but with those possible variations due to time & technology. One other possibility is the insulation between the wire wrap layers.....if its paper or poly.....it will affect the internal capacitance ….2 conductors separated by a di-electric insulator. You have the initial core as with the bobbin former but you also have the wrap insulation per the wrap layer. Capacitance will influence the highs. Back in the day.....it probably was not thought about as there was only one way with the materials available in that moment in time......equivalency is not always exact in some parameters......and engineers can argue either way to convey points. It always comes down to the first initial part as the baseline...the original.
Well that kind of changed my thoughts on transformer swaps. Great video guys. Did you notice any major changes insitu?
Tommy Golden yes! Both in feel and sound.
Thanks Tommy! The old trafo was a lot easier to play actually
Daniel Forsberg I originally thought my older JCMs always sounded better. I never. Changed out transformers. Never had the need, now I may be getting some old stock transformers and put them in my Supros. Thanks.
Hey! Did you ever release the video on how to make new transformers sound more vintage?
73 for me cleaner ...2018 got a lot of mids...great tones
The 2018 OT hasn't cooked enough. Once it has aged with a dusting of rust, it will also sound vintage.
I have seen your video of the comparison of vintage of new bluesbreaker. It was quite interesting to see the new amp with vintage speakers. That was quite a tonal difference. I am very interested in seeing how the new amp would perform with old output transformer Also, If you install vintage tubes with vintage speaker one could see if that can make reissue sound close to vintage. Finally comparison of all three (output transformer, speaker and tubes) could further let us know how new components compare to old ones. Just couple of things I have been curious about lately.
Thank you for the video I've been curious as to how transformers affect tone. Old one sounds cleaner, but older. new one sounds crunchy and new. In my opinion not enough of a difference to really care unless you're picky or you like modding your amps.
If I wasn’t listening to theses side by I wouldn’t have been able to hear a difference ,but the newer one is brighter and doesn’t rollover as smoothly as the original
new one you could adjust the presence and treble controls down subtly and do the reverse for the old. voila! no diff
I agree with the previous comments, but at one time Johan play exactly the same riff with both transformers and the difference is not perceptible, to my ears at least.
The old one is warmer.
Damn...you dont miss ANYTHING. Id like to see if EQ compensation fixes some of these differences...I suspect a little presence drop would warm it up just fine.
Stock has warm saturated harmonics that I prefer 🤙
Thanks David!
Probably the new transformer sounds the same if it had been mounted to the chassis with the wires sorted, cut to size and all in the right place. Let's not forget that the layout in this case (high volumes and the whole system close to "oscillate") counts for the sonic nuances. If the transformer used is made with the same grade of lamination, with the same winding pattern with the right insulators and the right specifications (transformation ratios) I assure you that it does not make that abysmal difference that many believe. Much easier to "upset" the tone of a vintage Marshall by "randomly" replacing electrolytics, resistors and signal caps ....
Nice comparison video Johan. There wasn't much in it, but the new one sounded a bit brighter. Are these both supposed to be spec'ed the same (i.e same wire gauge, amount of winding's, same core etc)?
Thanks, it’s the available replacement from Dagnall. Would love to have those questions of yours answered.
Seems like the older one had a little more sag, and smooth tone. Both were good. The question, I guess, would be: How long it takes to "break in a transformer" 100hrs?, 500 hours? 40 years?
For some reasons i like 2018 more than old. Because usually it is opposite. Old musical gear usually is superior to modern but this time it was exception!
i prefer the old transformer. It was darker, maybe a little less gain, but it was more 3 dimensional in sound to me sounding a bit more open.
Where'd u get the new OT from? Great vid as always!
KingDilph from Modulus Amplification.
Thanks! 😊
Thanks!
New transformer sounds brighter and clearer. Older transformer sounds warmer, rounder, and would be my preference.
I hear a difference. i can't say if it is down to variations in winding etc. Two vintage transformers could sound different to each to much the same degree, just like pickups can.
I replaced the OT on my late 80s JCM 800 1987 head. I used a Marstran vintage repro. I thought it sounded and responded better, but honestly I can not say for sure because I changed other stuff at the same time.
stock sounds like it sags more and has more bloom, less bite, a little less upper mid articulation, less treble. New one sounds stiff, more treble, almost like it trades some chime for bite. A bit of an unpleasant spike around 3-4hz perhaps.
I'd like to see something like this again but with classic tone vintage spec iron in the modern slot.
johan, there is indeed a difference. Just like with different tubes. Try the Classic Tone or Mercury transformers.
For me both sound the same but, old one gives lower output, maybe by loosing efficiency by time. Old wires, isolation etc. Try turn down volume a little bit on new one, to maybe get same sound as old?
Subtle differences, and it fits well with some tests Metropoulus Amplification made years ago, when they tested different OTs in the same 100w Plexi.
I did though choose Mercury Magnetics for my own Metro builds anyways :-) Caps will be ´broken in´, but I doubt very much that transformers will. It
is probably material and production methods that gives highter bandwith on the new ones. It would probably be relatively easy to test the bandwith,
frequensy response and distortion in a test. Some of the HiFi tube guys on YT use PC based spectrum analyzers to do that. El Paso Tube Labs comes
to mind. Englund, the Swedish heavy metaller also used a spectrum analyzer to show speakers harmonic content visually. Your mind will often trick you,
old and expensive things allways sounds better, but if you didn´t knew, the results could be different.
The old one had a slightly thicker sound in the midrange.
2:23 That riff is so f*cking bad ass Johan ;D
Thanks my friend!
not a lot of difference in my honest opinion. It just shows how much the speaker adds to the overall tone with Marshalls. you just can`t beat those old pulsonic greenback 25 watt speakers. They are special :)
the new one is slightly brighter BUT how do they feel and lower volumes and higher volumes in terms of compression and chewiness ?you cant hear that on youtube so much....
Cool video. Imho, the difference is on par with the whole tonewood discussion - I can barely hear the difference. Was it noticeable in the room?
It’ll be interesting to hear if the trafo mod makes a bigger impact on the sound 👍
Thanks Christoffer, I think it was noticeable in the room as well as recorded but I’m quite the nerd. ;-) Cheers
Haha, well, you’re my kind of nerd Johan 🤘
I wish someone would do this kind of comparison with a Mercury Magnetics transformer. The new transformer in this test is noticeably harsher. So, its either the differences in old iron or the magnet wire, or both.
I think nowday s one has more scooped sound. It s not only about the quality but the trend of the tone I guess
Johan, do you think it’s possible that the old one sounded more like the new (when the amp was new) one than it does today ? I mean the aging of the internal components.....just a thought....this would make me think that in 50 years, the new one would sound like the old original one.....?
Did you do any testing to see how close the impedances are of the two OTs? \m/
Nick Benjamin no but they are supposed to be same..
@@danielforsberg4018 It would be interesting to know if some manufacturing variation in the windings could be partly responsible for tonal differences as well as aging!