Should You Use SystemD?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- The battle of init systems is real. But should it be?
👇 PULL IT DOWN FOR THE GOOD STUFF 👇
==== Special Thanks to Our Patrons! ====
thelinuxcast.org/patrons/
===== Follow us 🐧🐧 ======
MERCH - shop.thelinuxcast.org
Discord - / discord
Odysee - odysee.com/$/invite/@thelinux...
Mastodon- fosstodon.org/@thelinuxcast
Subscribe at thelinuxcast.org
Contact us email@thelinuxcast.org
/ thelinuxcast
Telegram Group - t.me/+9lYoIuLh0JIyMzcx
Matrix - matrix.to/#/#the-linux-cast:matrix.org
Tyler - bit.ly/3wk9LNy on Odysee , / zaneyog on UA-cam and on Discord / discord
/ thelinuxcast
Patreon - / thelinuxcast
PayPal - paypal.me/thelinuxcast
Kofi - ko-fi.com/thelinuxcast
Logo Courtesy of pedropaulo.net
Intro Courtesy of www.fragcgi.com/?i=1
[show notes]
t.ly/tzlRi
[time stamps]
0:00 Intro
3:16 Our Week in Foss
4:01 Tyler's Week in FOSS
6:51 Matt's Week in FOSS
13:35 The Merits of Alternative Init Systems
1:10:20 Nuggies of the Week
1:14:27 Contact Info and Goodbyes - Наука та технологія
Follow me on Mastodon: fosstodon.org/@thelinuxcast
0:00 Intro
3:16 Our Week in Foss
4:01 Tyler's Week in FOSS
6:51 Matt's Week in FOSS
13:35 The Merits of Alternative Init Systems
1:10:20 Nuggies of the Week
1:14:27 Contact Info and Goodbyes
SystemD is what used by most linux distros, so to a new user or just average user overall who just want a PC running Linux, they don't mind because they don't care what is SystemD, if it runs and it runs well, they don't have to care.
For advanced user who knows what is an init system the story is a bit different. I personally see the choice between SystemD and OpenRC, Runit etc is personal choices and I am glad that there are choices, choose what you want according to your personal preferences.
The problem with corporate software, is the fact that they’re in NSA’s back pocket. NSA can, and probably already has, put backdoors in SystemD and SELinux.
runit for the win
59:37 That is NOT a standard. That is a monopoly. A standard would a situation where you can swap SystemD for something else, and expect everything to work without any effort on the user’s part.
Standards are great. Monopolies are not.
personally i don't have any technical problems with systemd, but i still tend to use other init systems and think they should stick around for portability reasons. an app that depends on systemd to function correctly won't even work on BSDs or whatever. idk about plasma 6 as i haven't gotten around to trying it yet, but with plasma 5 on openRC i noticed that apps launched with keyboard shortcuts have their working directory set to / instead of the home folder. so you open a terminal and you're in /. this is a _bug_ that only happens on non-systemd
Yes. Long answer: Yeeeeeeees.
You guys are hilarious. Don't worry about the jokes. People who don't laugh and actually get offended are just idiots anyway.
I use Alpine Linux! 😎 It’s not my daily driver… because video drivers… but damn, I love that distro. It’s one of the most stable, snappiest, and well-documented distros I’ve ever used. Right up there with Debian.
One of my decisions to increase productivity was to stop distro-jumping and stop caring about the GUI I use. My laptop is for work and home use and I need it stable first and foremost. I run Gnome for no reason other than it came with my distro out of the box. I installed tiling extension for when I need it. I now spend time learning to use my tools the best I can and stop worrying if the grass is greener elsewhere and because of these decisions I'm achieving a lot more. The most productive and biggest contributors to Linux community are those who just accept their choice of tools, perfect their tools and get on with it, they don't get into war-of-words over text editors etc. It's like a marriage, you need to learn to accept the flaws along with the beauty of the relationship, and focus on being your best self.
matt i'm so high rn i just need you to know i love u man. you make awesome content and i'm glad to see you have a diverse register on linuz and an open mind to everything you come across. you are a breath of fresh air in a community where everyone else seems so walled off from different things.
While I do use systemd and I don't really care too much about my init system, I can see where the unix philosophy people are coming from. As Tyler mentioned, it is nice to have some sort of standard and to have all functionality work well together, however, a unix philosopy-like program will make integrating with it easy and ubiquitous. I think of it how Hyprland does it. Vaexry has been grinding out a ton of applications that integrate well with Hyprland like hyprpaper and hyprlock but you can also easily use other programs like swaylock and swww if you want.
The experience may be near identical but in the case mentioned above hyprpaper can directly integrate with Hyprland while swww can do video backgrounds. I'm sure there are some sort of differences between the init systems that can benefit from this seperation. It just comes down to whether or not you find a worthy difference between the programs.
I agree with you about hyprland, the development is so exciting and I love watching the development progress so quickly. However, as you said, each update causes new issues to fix! Sometimes this is fun and teaches me a lot, but other times its annoying. Sort of depends how much I need to get done that day lol. For now something I'm willing to live, but one day I imagine switching to a more stability-focused WM (maybe this will be hyprland in a few years!).
I haven't been on linux too long, but I can saw as someone who uses DAWS and audio tools. Pipewire is significantly more functional than native routing solutions on Windows/Mac. The integration of all the individual parts as a whole (which has it's own story behind it of course) could use addressing to reduce confusion, that being said virtual routing has never been so easy. Pulse/Pipewire/QPW (Y)
Thought when you said Gallagher it was going to be Liam or Noel from the oasis indie band from UK. No problem about VW beetle drivers being called naz1s. However the main reason for looking down on original beetle drivers is having an engine in the boot or is that trunk in north America. Thanks for grouping all European countries into one homogeneous group!😊
10 times out of 10, you’re gonna pick up a Realtek WiFi adapter, and you will have to install out of kernel drivers for it. Not very difficult, but certainly not gonna work out of the box like you say it does.
Years ago one wise guy wrote on the Debian forum: "Calling systemd an init system is like calling an automobile a cup holder"
ALL the original arguments made against systemd were about system not following the old unix way of each program doing "one thing". Now they have lost the technical arguments they have moved on to useless personality and guilty by association arguments about developers or something. Sorry, as someone who grew up using SYSV Init scripts, systemd ROCKS. Also its features like timers and port listeners are very useful. Systemd is now THE standard for Linux init. Like Tyler said, at this point it is like someone wanting to use ALSA instead of pipewire.
My father agrees with you 100% He used System V init on System V Unix
It being the standard is one of the arguments against it. I shouldn't be forced to use it.
@@Skelterbane69 Run Gentoo, run Artix or Void. You always have a choice. Try Bedrock Linux.
For the record, JACK does not require Pulseaudio. (Works fine with just ALSA.)
None of "Made with unity" games - were not co-working with my mint distro. Whenever I am trying to use some third-program or just proton by steam. Glitches, missing textures, and low FPS with wrong sized fonts occurs
I use systemd and the newer versions of it have built-in niceties that are great for running containers via Podman. And yes, I write the unit files for those by hand. Like it has been said, most of the people who disparage systemd don't really have a dog in the fight and just want to be a contrarian (like Tyler said) and feel special.
Alsa... ugh... having to write a config file JUST to get it working was frustrating. I use Pipewire and I actually love it. I used Linux in the 1990s starting with Slackware. Linux overall has come a long way. I remember when I had to write a driver for a winmodem that was on an IBM Thinkpad just to get it to work (broadband wasn't a thing then). When broadband became available, SMC EtherPower II 10/100 cards always worked in Linux with little issue. Every system I built had one. My old server had 2 of them.
I use systemd unit files to control my Steam game servers. 10/10
Same, its really useful and compared to many things on linux its considered standard
The argument of slowness also doesn't hold water when every distro boots in 15 seconds for me, but systemd and systemd-boot on Clear Linux boots in 5 seconds.
That's faster than any other init system I've tried. Clearly distros are more at fault here.
Here for the nuggies!
Edit: I guess nuggies aren't what I thought they would be this week.
17:26 👍
I seems to see bug fixed messages almost each 2 weeks on the Hurd mailing list. When I used it about 2 years ago, XFCE had some bugs... I think Gnome was not working. But it is kind of the problem of Debian/Hurd: Glibc is so much working well, that you don't feel it as a microkernel. Pretty much all programs works from Linux source without modifications. But if you want to write stuff the Mach way, it is a bit hard, as you have to define the API like for the server and for the client... HelenOS feels more easier to develop in the microkernel way.
Hey Tyler, If you're going to use Unreal on Linux, only use it on Linux. I'm saying from personal experience cause making a project in both UE4 and 5, your project is incompatible with Windows version and you're forced to make a copy. The Linux version as lacks certain editor plug-in options.
When you talk about systemd being bloated and having too many things to do, you have you remember that you can install each part of systemd by itself. systemd's init system does not require systemd's journal or systemd-boot. They are all Unix like in nature, just they all play nice together if you use them all
That's true. But finding a distro that is just the init system is probably near impossible.
Actually, most of the different systemd parts depend on eachother, for no reason, so no you can not.
There are exceptions, like systemd-boot, but for the most part, you're stuck with the whole thing, for no reason. Malicious, really.
I don't care which controversial figure you talk about I just want Matt to shave and Tyler to get a haircut, you beatniks.
I used GNU on HURD daily from 2006-2010. Most of the development up to 2019 was Samuele, who is a legit boss. In the last few years, Damien has done some great work on rump support.
It's a lovely implementation of POSIX - nicer than on Linux in many ways - but hardware support is severely lacking. Software support is a mixed bag too.
I still think it's a great project, but I think there are more interesting directions to go in systems design. If you've never tried SculptOS, Fuchsia, IBM i, or a Lisp Machine, these are more dramatic and interesting departures from the status quo.
I maintain (if not very actively) two embedded operating systems derived from the KeyKOS family, which you couldn't daily drive at all, but if you want a really wild OS that family is it.
There's not many technical problems with SystemD, & at least as many with alternatives.
[Rant]
The problem is the way they effectively FORCED it on people (just as I was getting familiar *enough* with SysV).
Defying the bastards & sticking with SysV & looking at OpenRC & others taught me a LOT.
I rather feel the same damned thing is about to happen with Weyland vs Xorg.
"We've just hit maturity & something that works, let's break it, let's force years of bug-fixes & troubleshooting on everyone because ... LOOK SHINY NEW fucking OS BORG, join the collective & be assimilated DIE".
No you shouldn't use SystenD, & the reason is moral rather than technical, the devs. are pushy our way or no way bastards.
It's fucking WINDOWS-esque, You'll do it THIS way, the entire package, or you can feck off.
It's like banning bikes because someone invented a motorbike, & screw that you're now obliged to buy fuel.
I don't want to be *forced* to be a "Muslim" just because it's "the thing".. I want to be Christian, Hindu, or Atheist, I want to be free.
[/rant]
It's the effective removal of choice (and especially in Debian) that pissed me off, not the thing itself.
Consequently I hate it.
Why the hell should I buy a car (and fuel) when a damned BIKE works just fine for me.
I have no problems with using systemd except that I see absolutely no advantages over established technologies. Shorter boot time? Totally irrelevant, or do you reboot your servers every week. Cross-distro portability is only important for distro authors.
Configuring timers is awkward compared to cron jobs. Resolved and timesyncd are too basic. Journald still can't provide an analog to swatchdog.
Short answer: Yes you should use systemd. It is the best and most advanced init system on linux. Using anything else is a downgrade.
Tbh people who care about bloat in 2024 are superstitious fanatics lol tb storage is cheaper than ever and the idea that one program should only do one thing is antiquated. At this point one software engineer can do so much just from the pc at home, the idea that development will necessarily be strained by doing more than one thing is absurd lmao
The only reason i will use openRC on another machine is just because i want to try something new. Not because i have anything against systemD
I don’t understand why people keep on saying they’ll get cancelled for saying something. it’s literally not even a thing. Cancel culture doesn’t exist.
@@Hibbardbrett well honestly, the less people listening to country music are better. it is atrocious