I'm really shocked that you don't have like 20k subscribers. What an incredible in-depth analysis of these great pieces of hardware. You got me wanting a PVM now, and this video is the first time I'm hearing about them
In Brazil, the system was a 60hz signal called PAL-M, despite the acronym, it was almost NTSC with some differences in color coding or some non-sense like that. In any case, I don't think many people outside of the country knows about this.
Glad to see 480i flicker addressed! I'd add that in addition to higher TVL accentuating the issue, it's also worse on aperture grille than on shadow mask. If possible, I always play GC/Xbox/PS2 games at 480p on a modern display for that reason.
I own two PVMs. I hardlly ever use them. Over the summer I picked up a completely free 32" JVC D-Series AC-32D201 from August 2000. This curved apature grill TV has 450 TVL with excellent geomertry and absolutely stunning 240p from adapting RGB to component. Is it as clear as my PVMs? No, not quite. But even my big PVM is 14". This sucker is 32". Playing retro games on it is a treat. If I had to do it all over, I would say for the average person a PVM is not a good buy, especially as prices have soared since COVID started with prices not at all falling. Get a good, solid consumer grade TV. That's all you need. The JVC D-Series is absolutely just as fantastic as the Sony Trinitron. 8-bit Esquire even mentioned this in the video. D-Series was great.
Thank you for this deep look into consumer TVs vs PVMs. I really appreciated the technical aspects of this video. Your production quality and style are top notch as well.
Great video! The technical summary was concise and easy to follow and your CRT photography is ::chef's kiss:: "Things like geometry, and convergence, and color accuracy, and TV line count, aperture grills, shadow masks, RGB - we didn't know what any of that crap was and none of it mattered." This right here perfectly captures the difference between gaming in the 80's/90's and now. Today we are so focused on the technical specs of everything that it's easy to lose sight of what was actually important to us about the games and game systems of our youth. I had someone try and convince me that my PVM was no good for playing classic games because of its black levels - like we even knew or cared about that at all back then! It's weird how well-defined scanlines have become the most important measure of the retro gaming experience. At the time, I honestly don't remember caring about that at all. I guess as adults we're just chasing the best possible retro experience because we can. "The best CRT is the one that you own and the one that works." 👍🙏
I can't totally agree, because back in the day we had game magazines, that, for me at least, were a big part of the hobby because you couldn't hope to own all these games at the time, but you could drool over pictures, and although scanlines weren't specifically mentioned, they did appear in close up photography and form part of the imagery and beauty of games, specifically in magazines.
Were there ever any high end HD CRT displays sold as consumer products which used more or less the same hardware as PVMs or BVMs? I have recently developed a fascination for HD CRTs, especially the earlier ones which started becoming available wayyyy back in the 80's in Japan, as well as the HD CRT broadcasts which started in Japan in the late 80s, and any of the early ways of actually getting 1035i / 1080i (whatever you want to call it) content. Some were 32", but I think some HD CRTs were even larger than that.
LOVED this vid. But… I can’t help but feel like I’m the only one who is willing to have less than perfect clarity in the corners in exchange for a larger screen. I simply don’t understand people salivating over 8 inch and 14 inch PVMs. Even a 20 inch is simply too small for me. I haven’t played on a TV that small in over 30 years! I’ve seen people argue that the clarity is better on a smaller screen, and they’re right, the same number of TV lines in a smaller space will have better detail and sharpness. But then, you should be applying that same logic to our flat panel TVs as well! Since pixel size is fixed, you should be trying to get the SMALLEST screen size possible with the HIGHEST resolution possible if clarity is your only goal! However, most people don’t shop for tvs that way🤷🏻♂️
Stellar video-learned a ton I didn't know about PVMs. I typically go after the VGA monitors and it would be interesting to see how they mix in with some of the modern rescalers for practical gaming. Criminally crushed by YT's algorithm for the level of value this video has.
You've got a lot of content in this that could be edited down to YT shorts. I personally hate the shorts format but they are really trying to slice attention spans down that algorithmic direction. I bet you could get more traction with that format and vector in folks to the main channel@@8bitesquire
I just watched this start to end, I actually watched the whole thing, thats rare for me, so that tell's you waht I think of the video, this will be reference go to now for undisputable proof of PVM's superior nature to consumer CRTs, cheers for the video, it was fun to watch.
A sick episode. PVMs are so rare where I live in rural Canada thst my experience is limited to consumer sets. My favorite tube is my 27" Panasonic Gaoo (SuperFlat in the USA (*cue the guitar solo American anthem.*)) I like it so much, I got rid of my 36" FV300 to make space. I've also had 2 D-series, AF series, and a curved Trinitron. The Gaoo doesn't have the same sharpness as the FV300 or the curved Trinitron, but the colors on it absolutely pop. The Gaoo vs other Panasonic tubes I've had is clearly a higher quality so I sold them too. If you can, take a looksy at a low-hour Gaoo/SuperFlat, I know you won't be disappointed.
Awesome video, worth the wait!🍻 Thanks to retro tax pvms are now beyond my budget, but I love seeing them in action like this, and seeing how close some consumer crts can get
You can still get really nice 1000 TVL 17" PC CRT monitors for anything from £$30 to £$100, people haven't caught on to the fact they are pretty much 480p+ PVM's, you may even fin a 19" for cheap, 21" CRT monitors are very expensive though at the moment, though I did see a really nice one go for only £150 the other day, so you may even find a 21" for a good price still. If people realize CRT PC monitors are basically just 1000 to 1500 TVL PVM/BVM monitors and the hype gets to silly levels like with the FW900 and LaCie Blue IV 22 etcetera, prices will become far too high, so if you want one, now is a good time imo.
Such a great video! Would be interesting to cover PVMs besides the Sony ones. Recently acquired a JVC TM-H1375SU (>750 TVL, shadow mask) and it looks excellent, with minimal flicker on interlaced content as well. Even though it doesn’t have component inputs, S-video looks great.
Amazing video and absolutely a must see video for any retro game enthusiast looking to get into CRTs. It was almost the perfect blend of pro info and witty humor....until the rabbit bit lol. Still an amazing video and one of the best hours of retro content I have ever seen!
Cool video. There was a brief window in the early-mid 2010s where PVMs were a cheap ($0 to $100) way to get RGB. I missed the boat on that. Wouldn't bother with prices these days. Oh well! I ended up getting a few brand new security monitors with 13 to 15 inch curved tubes + s-video a few years ago for shockingly cheap when everyone was ignoring them. Personally I prefer the low end slot-mask look.The 480i issue... one of my monitors is 750TVL and it is eye bleeding for interlaced content. It's mostly unused because of that! A super low end 350TVL scamsung tube looks perfect for 480i and is the look I remember for 240p.
If the Retrotink 5X had existed when I got back into retro gaming almost 10 years ago, I never would have gotten a BVM. I do love my BVM-D24, but I rarely use it now. The Tink 5X on my 77" OLED is glorious. I cannot wait for the Tink 4K.
@@8bitesquire On a LG CX OLED with BFI @high and a HDR flag on the RetroTink 5X Pro negates most strenghts of the D24/32. With RetroTink 4K things will be even better. Only thing better on the BVM is no input lag compared to 26ms @60Hz BFI on the OLED. However OLED has much better black levels in all enviroments thus contrast especially in a room with lights or sun light, no anoying 15kHz noise, no interlaced flicker as you yourself pointed out is especially anoying on 800-1000 TVL monitors, size difference is not even funny 77" vs 24/32" and motion is about the same and most important it's the cheaper option. On top of that you can play current gen games with HDR and everything in between. Love my 2 PVM 20L4s but it's not all sunshine and rainbows.
I own 2 cvm 1250s, one 1979, the other 1981. They have rf and composite. The guy I got them from seemed to have got them from an old local television station. I never hear anyone talk about these, and I dont know much myself, but they are really nice and seem professional. Thanks for the great video, i will be listening throughout delivering pizza tonight (i do have a pvm 2030 also, can certainly appreciate the S and RGB) 😎
The only PVM I've ever seen in person is my PVM14N6U which is only 500TVL, so maybe I'm missing out on the high end of the PVM spectrum. I don't use it much because it has geometry issues (probably needs a re-cap), but it looks very nice otherwise. I do most of my gaming on a 27" JVC D series, it's definitely not perfect but it gets the job done. I own an OSSC and have tried my best to appease the wife by getting rid of my "fish tank TVs", but like you I see lots of valid reason to keep this aging technology around. This was a great video, entertaining and lots of good info. Subscribed!
I have a 20M2MDU, 14M2U, the same Haier 13", 27" FV310 and a 20" JVC D-Series. I was lucky enough to get into CRTs 4 years ago and got the 310 free, JVC free off the curb!, Haier $20 OfferUp, and the two PVMs on Ebay were $222 for the 20" and $125 for the 14". I don't think of it as a competition and "perfect" image quality is not the be-all end-all. I find myself using the 310 the most, I made some adjustments and compare back and forth with the PVM and it's pretty close. The huge screen 27" vs 20" is a big difference and the built in sub woofer and stereo audio and a remote control for little adjustments make it my most used set. The JVC and Haier I rotate with the PVMs in and out of the setup I really like the shadow mask style as well cuz it just looks different especially with those bubble shaped screens. Also my Compaq 16" FS7600 (my family's last CRT monitor) is my most used CRT right now as an extra windows screen along with 480p Dreamcast and OG Xbox gaming.
Finally understand what all those scanline filters actually mean. Very informative. Would I like a PVM? Sure, they're ace. But right now I can't find anyone to look at my main Bang n' O unit, that has developed a fault, and herein lies the problem with CRTs, they break.
Even as a kid I knew RF was inferior to the component AV. But if you had to use it because the TV you were on didn't have another option, pick channel 4 instead of 3. For some reason channel 4 always delivered a stronger clearer signal.
Very entertaining video, however I would like to appeal this case, and I bring two new importent pieces of evidence: - Artistic intent: many games of the era utilise dithering patterns or vertical lines to simulate transparent shadows, instead of flickering sprites, or blend colours together. On consumer CRTs these vertical lines or dithering patters will be blurred out along the lines, making it look like a transparent image or half-tone. PVMs will completely remove this intended effect, and reveal the original pattern that was intended to simulate the effect. Not only does this look very distracting once you start to notice it, it also diverges from the artistic intent, which is the whole reason most of us use CRTs on the first place. The RetrTINK 5x can realistically simulate this effect using post processing. - Most commercial European CRTs have supported RGB since the 70s through the SCART connector. I played most of my childhood games on two TVs: a 21” Trinitron from the early 2000s, and a ~32” Erres from the 70s. Both supported RGB over SCART, and both looked amazing. Although these obviously are designed to operate at 50Hz and require 220v power, most European higher-end consumer CRTs produced since the late 90s can accept NTSC 60Hz signals without any issues. (I used to own a 1996 Sony WEGA widescreen CRT that could handle NTSC perfectly.) So for most Europeans such a regular ass CRT would probably be a better option, because they will all support RGB over SCART, probably support 60Hz, and more accurately reproduce the artistic intent.
Great video! A few years ago I was planning on just getting a good CRT due to the PVM prices when a Panasonic BT-H1450Y which has 750TVL came up for sale down my street. Let's just say I payed what I would have for a Sony CRT =)
fucking hell i just bought a Sony PVM20M4U for £550 and this video dropped both educating me and giving me the greatest smug feeling any man has ever had.
Great video, very informative! I knew the technical stuff for the most part, but I really enjoyed the discussion, and it was interesting seeing the comparison of all those specific TVs you found. 🤔 I only need 5 CRTs in my life; the 25" in my MVS-4-25 'Big Red' NEO GEO cabinet.... The 29" tri-sync of a generic 'candy cab'. A nice big consumer TV I can play console lightgun games on. A small PVM for my repair bench. And a 19 or 20 inch PVM for playing games at my desk... So far I'm one for five...and having a hell of a time even getting my hands on a used TV where I am... 😭 Edit: 49:17 Totally gonna like this vid on my alt account as well, just for Donna. 😁👍 Edit2: 1:06:47 HELL YES BATTLECLASH. One of the favorites of my childhood SNES collection. Now I've got a complete-in-box copy of the Japanese version; SPACE BAZOOKA.
I feel fortunate to have had most of the best CRTs out there (although like you I haven't had a BVM, don't really want one). I've bought and sold Toshiba AF, D-Series, and Tau's, but I've settled with my collection and likely won't be selling it or adding to it. I've got my PVM-20M2U, PVM-20L5, 27FV310, MS-2930 (Sega Blast City), and MS-9 (Sega New Astro City). They have all been recapped and professionally serviced and are all in excellent condition, and my favorites are the MS2930 and the 20M2U. The 27FV310 is great, but it just doesn't compare to either the PVMs or the Nanao arcade monitors. For your average gamer, yeah consumer sets are awesome, but for those who want the best, yeah PVM, gotta do it. Gotta pay to play.
I paid 50 bucks for my Sony KV32FS320 and SNES over component looks great. It's a consumer TV sure, but I wanted to see what classic games looked like on a budget. PVMs are a bit rich for my blood, but it's fun to learn about.
@@8bitesquire while I totally agree, I do prefer the sega megacd version not only because of the music, but it's way easier and I'm a casual shmup fan at best 😂
Man, I find the first photographs technology fascinanting, CRTs are wayyyy more impressive than that, I think anything can be fascinating depending on how we look at them, I mean, can we say 90s PCs were cooler than today'sPCs and consoles?
This video is a gem! Very informative and entertaining. The question is, HOW were you able to take crisp footage of PVM screens? I have a BVM 20F1U and can’t even take a photo without those big black bars and distortion all over the screen 😅
Oh man... the funniest part for me is knowing Mike Chi will watch this and think, "My segment followed _that?!"_ 🤣 Also this is the first time in a long while your vids haven't cost me any money, unless you can convince me that I should buy a non-launch RT5X capable of gen lock and TBC...
Never heard of your channel before this video. You’re going to have a tough time topping this. I’ve been thinking about picking up a PVM for a long time and now there’s going to be that many more driving up prices. Amazing comparisons and glad you had a decent camera to pickup the actual differences. So many details I didn’t know.
I've really considered adding tint to my 20L5 like John Linneman did. Sitting next to my 20M2U which has dark phosphors it is just so washed out in comparison. Unless the room is absolutely pitch black, the 20M2U looks better, and that's why I use it more often than not. Sitting in total darkness isn't really what I want to do. I've got the tint sitting here and have tested it and it looks pretty good even with the lights off.
personally I think 600TVL is the highest acceptable TVL for 15kHz content (240p and 480i) while anything higher than 600/650TVL I would only consider using if it’s able to accept 31kHz or higher 15kHz content on 800-1000TVL looks absolutely horrible IMO
Amazing video! BTW, today's commercial flat panels continue to be miles away in quality from the very best professional monitors. Even an old LCD PVM from before 2010 will look better than most commercial TVs you can buy today, and even today's best OLEDs and miniLEDs can touch the OLED models except for modern niceties like 4K resolution and higher/variable refresh rate. And then if you look at the current and upcoming BVM... not sure we'll ever see that kind of quality in commercial TVs, even after microLED becomes affordable.
This video is amazing you are so underrated! And I think you defended PVM’s pretty good in this video. But nothing will make me drop my KV-32FS1000 with bad bowing and geometry, sorry 😅 but I wish I had a PVM I mean who doesn’t.
I've always wondered, IF you can capture the look through recording a CRT to show in UA-cam videos, wouldn't it be possible to play that look through emulation eventually? Anyway, another great video! Thank you!!
If you watched the video through to the end, he had that topic covered by Mike Chi, in a nutshell, Chi made it clear CRTs are never going to truely replaced, but as we progress to higher and higher PPI displays, the higher pixel pitch displays will be able to handle CRT emulation more acurately. Though to elaborate on what Mike said, it's been shown that 12,000 PPI will be the point to which we can display sprite/pixel games flawlessly as intended on modern panels, 12,000 PPI and beyond will make scalers, processing, AI for various video enhancments, anti-aliasing, all obsolete, all we will need at that point is a simple SLG (scanline-generator), as 12,000 PPI can handle everything from 240p to 4K beautifly. Super fine pitch modern displays will bring us back to monitors which can handle multiple-resolutions beautifly without any comprimises (like CRTs), aka, multiscan, I canny wait to get a 12,000 PPI mLED (true micro LED, which has 100 to 1 pixel desity vs OLED, so in the space that takes up 1 pixel on an OLED, mLED has 100, this means huge PPI, Pixel-Pitch, CD/m2/luminance, and resolution upgrades, not to mention they start at 3960hz refresh rates, afordable consumer mLED is another 3-5 years away though, so for now, a Tink4K or something like it (OSSC Pro) and an OLED or Plasma is your go to for CRT emulation, also I really hope someone, perhaps Mike Chi himself, would produce a decent modern legacy gaming monitor, with a 4:3 RGB-OLED, with native rolling-bar/raster-scan simulataion, a built in Tink 4K, SLG, mClassic or an updated version, and most important of all, real curved glass, and a real AG/Shadow-mask/slot-mask grid built into the panel.
Anyone watching here in the New England Area that knows where to get a CRT serviced? I have a 27" Flat Sony Trintron. It looks great with component but the geometry is bad enough to annoy me . I only know of one place but they might not be able to help with this issue (been to them before and all they did was try to degauss it and that didn't resolve the issue).
30:37 It's not a fair comparison between a bad TV and a PVM. My 21" Sony Wega from 2006 has great geometry and produces a clear image on the entire screen
33:10 I dont know why people continue to lie to themselves The PVM looks horrible compared to the Haier 240p games were not meant to be played on high res tubes The Genesis outputs around 292/293 horizontal lines after PAR adjustment(320 x (32/35) or 256 x (8/7)) Devs used higher res professional monitors to edit the graphics easier obviously but 240p games do not look good Memelines are an artifact and have always been The image was not meant to be oversharpened and blocky You will see this one day when we get +10000PPI displays and people start integer scaling these games to those kind of pixel densities. It will look all smooth with barely any aliasing like the low res consumer tube/240p handheld LCD screens but without the screendoor effect and everybody who thought that blocky mess that is integer scaling in todays low PPI screens was "raw pixels" will eat crow and realize how stupid they have been all along
Just keep an eye on govdeals. They sell the surplus state and gov crap they want gone. Every once in a while you can get a Pvm/Bvm for dirt cheap, usually local pickup only unless you hire courier. Sometimes there are literal pallets of them for under 100 bucks.
I'm really shocked that you don't have like 20k subscribers. What an incredible in-depth analysis of these great pieces of hardware. You got me wanting a PVM now, and this video is the first time I'm hearing about them
@@Voshchronos thanks man! Spread the word!
Loved the bit about Bob being "that guy" 🤣
Man, you got all us suckers hunting for this KV-14DA1
Mine will be up for sale soon!
I'm from South America and we get two hour lunch break + 60 hz freedom, thus best of both worlds 🎉
In Brazil, the system was a 60hz signal called PAL-M, despite the acronym, it was almost NTSC with some differences in color coding or some non-sense like that. In any case, I don't think many people outside of the country knows about this.
I did not!
There's a short, yet informative wikipedia page about the PAL-M signal, I think you might enjoy checking it.
Glad to see 480i flicker addressed! I'd add that in addition to higher TVL accentuating the issue, it's also worse on aperture grille than on shadow mask. If possible, I always play GC/Xbox/PS2 games at 480p on a modern display for that reason.
Yeah! I had no idea about the flicker. Glad it wasn't overlooked.
I own two PVMs. I hardlly ever use them. Over the summer I picked up a completely free 32" JVC D-Series AC-32D201 from August 2000. This curved apature grill TV has 450 TVL with excellent geomertry and absolutely stunning 240p from adapting RGB to component. Is it as clear as my PVMs? No, not quite. But even my big PVM is 14". This sucker is 32". Playing retro games on it is a treat. If I had to do it all over, I would say for the average person a PVM is not a good buy, especially as prices have soared since COVID started with prices not at all falling. Get a good, solid consumer grade TV. That's all you need. The JVC D-Series is absolutely just as fantastic as the Sony Trinitron. 8-bit Esquire even mentioned this in the video. D-Series was great.
Thank you for this deep look into consumer TVs vs PVMs. I really appreciated the technical aspects of this video. Your production quality and style are top notch as well.
🙏
Great video! The technical summary was concise and easy to follow and your CRT photography is ::chef's kiss::
"Things like geometry, and convergence, and color accuracy, and TV line count, aperture grills, shadow masks, RGB - we didn't know what any of that crap was and none of it mattered." This right here perfectly captures the difference between gaming in the 80's/90's and now. Today we are so focused on the technical specs of everything that it's easy to lose sight of what was actually important to us about the games and game systems of our youth. I had someone try and convince me that my PVM was no good for playing classic games because of its black levels - like we even knew or cared about that at all back then! It's weird how well-defined scanlines have become the most important measure of the retro gaming experience. At the time, I honestly don't remember caring about that at all. I guess as adults we're just chasing the best possible retro experience because we can.
"The best CRT is the one that you own and the one that works." 👍🙏
Yessir!
I can't totally agree, because back in the day we had game magazines, that, for me at least, were a big part of the hobby because you couldn't hope to own all these games at the time, but you could drool over pictures, and although scanlines weren't specifically mentioned, they did appear in close up photography and form part of the imagery and beauty of games, specifically in magazines.
I'm going to need a good bottle of bourbon to get through this in one piece!
cheers my friend! i had to roll one up for this banger!
Expecting many flame wars.
Not gonna lie, I was on the edge of my seat at the point of the verdict.
I'll have to settle on Vodka over here, 🍻
I really want to compliment you on the huge improvement in your camera work! 👍👍👍👍
New lenses helps! Thank you!
Were there ever any high end HD CRT displays sold as consumer products which used more or less the same hardware as PVMs or BVMs? I have recently developed a fascination for HD CRTs, especially the earlier ones which started becoming available wayyyy back in the 80's in Japan, as well as the HD CRT broadcasts which started in Japan in the late 80s, and any of the early ways of actually getting 1035i / 1080i (whatever you want to call it) content.
Some were 32", but I think some HD CRTs were even larger than that.
Gold love it. The dude heckling in the background. "Showing us Daewoo and Haire....😂"
MiSTer Component Out + 27" CRT = A Splendid Time
That RetroTINK bit at the end was the best!
LOVED this vid. But… I can’t help but feel like I’m the only one who is willing to have less than perfect clarity in the corners in exchange for a larger screen. I simply don’t understand people salivating over 8 inch and 14 inch PVMs. Even a 20 inch is simply too small for me. I haven’t played on a TV that small in over 30 years!
I’ve seen people argue that the clarity is better on a smaller screen, and they’re right, the same number of TV lines in a smaller space will have better detail and sharpness. But then, you should be applying that same logic to our flat panel TVs as well! Since pixel size is fixed, you should be trying to get the SMALLEST screen size possible with the HIGHEST resolution possible if clarity is your only goal! However, most people don’t shop for tvs that way🤷🏻♂️
Stellar video-learned a ton I didn't know about PVMs. I typically go after the VGA monitors and it would be interesting to see how they mix in with some of the modern rescalers for practical gaming.
Criminally crushed by YT's algorithm for the level of value this video has.
I don't like to whine about the YT algorithm, but yeah, I think a lot of people would like this video if they were introduced to it.
You've got a lot of content in this that could be edited down to YT shorts. I personally hate the shorts format but they are really trying to slice attention spans down that algorithmic direction. I bet you could get more traction with that format and vector in folks to the main channel@@8bitesquire
Found your channel because of Steve from Retro Tech, you are a funny guy LMAO subscribed instantly. This video is gold!!
Interesting to see this pop up, and I love the discussion! I’m a massive CRT and PVM/BVM fan.
This was a super thoughtful and in-depth video; very well explained and you elegantly addressed all topics. Keep ‘em coming!
looking forward to kicking back, relaxing, and giving this a good watch!
This video was really great, I enjoyed it a lot. Congratulations on the great production value!
🙏
Lol I just realized I'm watching this while leaning on the PVM in my garage that doubles as my work bench. They're super sturdy!!
I just watched this start to end, I actually watched the whole thing, thats rare for me, so that tell's you waht I think of the video, this will be reference go to now for undisputable proof of PVM's superior nature to consumer CRTs, cheers for the video, it was fun to watch.
Thank you! 🙏
always great music, a fun time indeed
The ending track is much good. Amaze.. WOW
That’s my buddy customercopy! He’s great 👍
A sick episode. PVMs are so rare where I live in rural Canada thst my experience is limited to consumer sets. My favorite tube is my 27" Panasonic Gaoo (SuperFlat in the USA (*cue the guitar solo American anthem.*)) I like it so much, I got rid of my 36" FV300 to make space. I've also had 2 D-series, AF series, and a curved Trinitron. The Gaoo doesn't have the same sharpness as the FV300 or the curved Trinitron, but the colors on it absolutely pop. The Gaoo vs other Panasonic tubes I've had is clearly a higher quality so I sold them too. If you can, take a looksy at a low-hour Gaoo/SuperFlat, I know you won't be disappointed.
Awesome video, worth the wait!🍻
Thanks to retro tax pvms are now beyond my budget, but I love seeing them in action like this, and seeing how close some consumer crts can get
You can still get really nice 1000 TVL 17" PC CRT monitors for anything from £$30 to £$100, people haven't caught on to the fact they are pretty much 480p+ PVM's, you may even fin a 19" for cheap, 21" CRT monitors are very expensive though at the moment, though I did see a really nice one go for only £150 the other day, so you may even find a 21" for a good price still.
If people realize CRT PC monitors are basically just 1000 to 1500 TVL PVM/BVM monitors and the hype gets to silly levels like with the FW900 and LaCie Blue IV 22 etcetera, prices will become far too high, so if you want one, now is a good time imo.
But can you use those PC CRT monitors with consoles for 240p and 480p+?
@@sonyx5332 Of course, with a 20 dollar GBS-C you can input RGB/S-Video/Component @ 240p+
Such a great video! Would be interesting to cover PVMs besides the Sony ones. Recently acquired a JVC TM-H1375SU (>750 TVL, shadow mask) and it looks excellent, with minimal flicker on interlaced content as well. Even though it doesn’t have component inputs, S-video looks great.
This video cracked me up! Very informative thanks for making this.
Thank you! Please tell 100,000 of your closest friends how much you liked it lol
Goddamit Bob, "that guy" lol
Turned out really nice! 🎉
This is oozing quality and hard work brother god job.
Fantastically edited
Not really, I screwed up a lot of stuff!
*Fantastically, not fantastic! lol I mean it was over the top and fun. You are doing good work.@@8bitesquire
Justice is served, well done 👏
Amazing video and absolutely a must see video for any retro game enthusiast looking to get into CRTs. It was almost the perfect blend of pro info and witty humor....until the rabbit bit lol. Still an amazing video and one of the best hours of retro content I have ever seen!
I will defend the Conan bit until my dying breath
@@8bitesquire we need more dedication like that in this hobby. I retract my statement and may Ahnuld Bunny proceed with many lamentations.
Little music boo-boo at 2:42 :) Great video as always!
Goddammit 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
@@8bitesquire it's so small it will only bother you. But I get it I'm the same way with my stuff lol. Seriously though, great work.
I thought it was for emphasis
Another audio blip is at 23:54.
I'm glad this video mostly stayed away from JVC's professional CRTs. The price on those guys has definitely gone up recently but are still a steal.
Good work Mr lawyer man, this is right up my alley
Thanks for the anachronisms!
Amazing work. Love that you used the 1986 Transformers movie
Another great video, you deserve way more subscribers.
Algorithm be damned
Your best video to date. Well done!!!!
Sick flex, bro. Tubular collection.
Cool video. There was a brief window in the early-mid 2010s where PVMs were a cheap ($0 to $100) way to get RGB. I missed the boat on that. Wouldn't bother with prices these days.
Oh well! I ended up getting a few brand new security monitors with 13 to 15 inch curved tubes + s-video a few years ago for shockingly cheap when everyone was ignoring them. Personally I prefer the low end slot-mask look.The 480i issue... one of my monitors is 750TVL and it is eye bleeding for interlaced content. It's mostly unused because of that! A super low end 350TVL scamsung tube looks perfect for 480i and is the look I remember for 240p.
Excellent video!
Thanks man!
If the Retrotink 5X had existed when I got back into retro gaming almost 10 years ago, I never would have gotten a BVM. I do love my BVM-D24, but I rarely use it now. The Tink 5X on my 77" OLED is glorious. I cannot wait for the Tink 4K.
You should just give me your D24 then 😂
@@8bitesquire On a LG CX OLED with BFI @high and a HDR flag on the RetroTink 5X Pro negates most strenghts of the D24/32. With RetroTink 4K things will be even better.
Only thing better on the BVM is no input lag compared to 26ms @60Hz BFI on the OLED. However OLED has much better black levels in all enviroments thus contrast especially in a room with lights or sun light, no anoying 15kHz noise, no interlaced flicker as you yourself pointed out is especially anoying on 800-1000 TVL monitors, size difference is not even funny 77" vs 24/32" and motion is about the same and most important it's the cheaper option. On top of that you can play current gen games with HDR and everything in between.
Love my 2 PVM 20L4s but it's not all sunshine and rainbows.
@@8bitesquire You have a tink 4K to trade?
I own 2 cvm 1250s, one 1979, the other 1981. They have rf and composite. The guy I got them from seemed to have got them from an old local television station. I never hear anyone talk about these, and I dont know much myself, but they are really nice and seem professional. Thanks for the great video, i will be listening throughout delivering pizza tonight (i do have a pvm 2030 also, can certainly appreciate the S and RGB) 😎
Most enjoyable video on PVM's I've seen.
I mean @mylifeingaming made a really good one, but thanks!
The only PVM I've ever seen in person is my PVM14N6U which is only 500TVL, so maybe I'm missing out on the high end of the PVM spectrum. I don't use it much because it has geometry issues (probably needs a re-cap), but it looks very nice otherwise. I do most of my gaming on a 27" JVC D series, it's definitely not perfect but it gets the job done. I own an OSSC and have tried my best to appease the wife by getting rid of my "fish tank TVs", but like you I see lots of valid reason to keep this aging technology around. This was a great video, entertaining and lots of good info. Subscribed!
Glad you liked it! And get that N6 serviced!!
@@8bitesquire I definitely need to make that happen
Your videos have been great! Keep it up.
Glad you like them!
Amazing video! White balance is so important when comparing CRTs!
I have a 20M2MDU, 14M2U, the same Haier 13", 27" FV310 and a 20" JVC D-Series. I was lucky enough to get into CRTs 4 years ago and got the 310 free, JVC free off the curb!, Haier $20 OfferUp, and the two PVMs on Ebay were $222 for the 20" and $125 for the 14". I don't think of it as a competition and "perfect" image quality is not the be-all end-all. I find myself using the 310 the most, I made some adjustments and compare back and forth with the PVM and it's pretty close. The huge screen 27" vs 20" is a big difference and the built in sub woofer and stereo audio and a remote control for little adjustments make it my most used set. The JVC and Haier I rotate with the PVMs in and out of the setup I really like the shadow mask style as well cuz it just looks different especially with those bubble shaped screens. Also my Compaq 16" FS7600 (my family's last CRT monitor) is my most used CRT right now as an extra windows screen along with 480p Dreamcast and OG Xbox gaming.
Finally understand what all those scanline filters actually mean. Very informative. Would I like a PVM? Sure, they're ace. But right now I can't find anyone to look at my main Bang n' O unit, that has developed a fault, and herein lies the problem with CRTs, they break.
Have you considered it might be the giant horse dongs inside of them?
58:38 That whole segment was funny asf.
Even as a kid I knew RF was inferior to the component AV. But if you had to use it because the TV you were on didn't have another option, pick channel 4 instead of 3. For some reason channel 4 always delivered a stronger clearer signal.
With those prices I’ll be stuck peddling and meddling in consumer CRT’s for awhile. That said, still a great and highly entertaining video!
Very entertaining video, however I would like to appeal this case, and I bring two new importent pieces of evidence:
- Artistic intent: many games of the era utilise dithering patterns or vertical lines to simulate transparent shadows, instead of flickering sprites, or blend colours together.
On consumer CRTs these vertical lines or dithering patters will be blurred out along the lines, making it look like a transparent image or half-tone.
PVMs will completely remove this intended effect, and reveal the original pattern that was intended to simulate the effect.
Not only does this look very distracting once you start to notice it, it also diverges from the artistic intent, which is the whole reason most of us use CRTs on the first place.
The RetrTINK 5x can realistically simulate this effect using post processing.
- Most commercial European CRTs have supported RGB since the 70s through the SCART connector.
I played most of my childhood games on two TVs: a 21” Trinitron from the early 2000s, and a ~32” Erres from the 70s. Both supported RGB over SCART, and both looked amazing.
Although these obviously are designed to operate at 50Hz and require 220v power, most European higher-end consumer CRTs produced since the late 90s can accept NTSC 60Hz signals without any issues. (I used to own a 1996 Sony WEGA widescreen CRT that could handle NTSC perfectly.) So for most Europeans such a regular ass CRT would probably be a better option, because they will all support RGB over SCART, probably support 60Hz, and more accurately reproduce the artistic intent.
These are really good points
@@8bitesquire Thank you! 😄
By the by: just discovered your channel today, but really enjoying the content so far. Keep up the good work! 😁
Great video! A few years ago I was planning on just getting a good CRT due to the PVM prices when a Panasonic BT-H1450Y which has 750TVL came up for sale down my street. Let's just say I payed what I would have for a Sony CRT =)
Nice pickup!!!
The Panasonic ones are nice
fucking hell i just bought a Sony PVM20M4U for £550 and this video dropped both educating me and giving me the greatest smug feeling any man has ever had.
The fleeeeexxxxxx
whoever edited in Soldier Blade music at 6:30 deserves a raise
Well that would be me and YT pays shit 😂
OH NO! Gonna have a chat with them and see if their customer service even responds.
@@ArthurKannibal do you speak AI? lol
@@8bitesquire Unfortunately I only speak HI (Human Intelligence) :p
What a journey of a video!
hope it was a good one
@@8bitesquire I did and then subscribed!
Great video, very informative! I knew the technical stuff for the most part, but I really enjoyed the discussion, and it was interesting seeing the comparison of all those specific TVs you found. 🤔
I only need 5 CRTs in my life; the 25" in my MVS-4-25 'Big Red' NEO GEO cabinet.... The 29" tri-sync of a generic 'candy cab'. A nice big consumer TV I can play console lightgun games on. A small PVM for my repair bench. And a 19 or 20 inch PVM for playing games at my desk... So far I'm one for five...and having a hell of a time even getting my hands on a used TV where I am... 😭
Edit: 49:17 Totally gonna like this vid on my alt account as well, just for Donna. 😁👍
Edit2: 1:06:47 HELL YES BATTLECLASH. One of the favorites of my childhood SNES collection. Now I've got a complete-in-box copy of the Japanese version; SPACE BAZOOKA.
I had no idea it was called space bazooka - now I love the game even more. Easily my favorite 16 bit lightgun game
@@8bitesquire Haha, I know, right?! 🤣
Haven't heard that Daewoo song in ages!
I feel fortunate to have had most of the best CRTs out there (although like you I haven't had a BVM, don't really want one). I've bought and sold Toshiba AF, D-Series, and Tau's, but I've settled with my collection and likely won't be selling it or adding to it. I've got my PVM-20M2U, PVM-20L5, 27FV310, MS-2930 (Sega Blast City), and MS-9 (Sega New Astro City). They have all been recapped and professionally serviced and are all in excellent condition, and my favorites are the MS2930 and the 20M2U. The 27FV310 is great, but it just doesn't compare to either the PVMs or the Nanao arcade monitors.
For your average gamer, yeah consumer sets are awesome, but for those who want the best, yeah PVM, gotta do it. Gotta pay to play.
I paid 50 bucks for my Sony KV32FS320 and SNES over component looks great. It's a consumer TV sure, but I wanted to see what classic games looked like on a budget. PVMs are a bit rich for my blood, but it's fun to learn about.
My name is RetroRGB Bob and I approve this video
🤣
I just found out about your channel, brilliant.
Welcome aboard!
Best crt watch on UA-cam
I appreciate the praise but there are many out there that do a much better job than I do!
@@8bitesquire you made easy to digest and entertaining tho, you deserve more views ngl
22:53 lords of thunder ⚡
damn right 🤘
Better Game - PC Engine
Better Music - Sega CD
@@8bitesquire while I totally agree, I do prefer the sega megacd version not only because of the music, but it's way easier and I'm a casual shmup fan at best 😂
Daaaaaaaeeeeewoooooooooo! I say, Daaaaaeeeewwwwwooo!
And yes, that Haier is bad ass.
Great video
🙏
Man, I find the first photographs technology fascinanting, CRTs are wayyyy more impressive than that, I think anything can be fascinating depending on how we look at them, I mean, can we say 90s PCs were cooler than today'sPCs and consoles?
Brilliant video👍
Funny and educational 👍
Thank you!
Did good. Long videos are hard work.
This video is a gem! Very informative and entertaining.
The question is, HOW were you able to take crisp footage of PVM screens?
I have a BVM 20F1U and can’t even take a photo without those big black bars and distortion all over the screen 😅
It's all CGI
10:52 Brazil is PAL-M. It's 60hz and 480i.
Oh man... the funniest part for me is knowing Mike Chi will watch this and think, "My segment followed _that?!"_ 🤣
Also this is the first time in a long while your vids haven't cost me any money, unless you can convince me that I should buy a non-launch RT5X capable of gen lock and TBC...
😮 I bought a PVM 1942Q in the late 2000 before it was a craze. Bought it for 125 CAN$ !🤣
Watching this on a Mitsubishi Diamondtron Pro 920 🥰
@@8skellerns yesssss
1:03:37 do you have that same capture for the retrotink 4k? (A bit later there is a zoom, but not the comparison)
Never heard of your channel before this video. You’re going to have a tough time topping this. I’ve been thinking about picking up a PVM for a long time and now there’s going to be that many more driving up prices. Amazing comparisons and glad you had a decent camera to pickup the actual differences. So many details I didn’t know.
Welcome aboard! Im glad you liked it!
Also, you fail to mention that part of the better color accuracy is due to using a better and different phosphor coating for pvm tubes.
I've really considered adding tint to my 20L5 like John Linneman did. Sitting next to my 20M2U which has dark phosphors it is just so washed out in comparison. Unless the room is absolutely pitch black, the 20M2U looks better, and that's why I use it more often than not. Sitting in total darkness isn't really what I want to do. I've got the tint sitting here and have tested it and it looks pretty good even with the lights off.
personally I think 600TVL is the highest acceptable TVL for 15kHz content (240p and 480i) while anything higher than 600/650TVL I would only consider using if it’s able to accept 31kHz or higher
15kHz content on 800-1000TVL looks absolutely horrible IMO
My PVM has been in the closet since the OSSC came out. I dont miss it, but cant bring myself to sell it either.
Amazing video! BTW, today's commercial flat panels continue to be miles away in quality from the very best professional monitors. Even an old LCD PVM from before 2010 will look better than most commercial TVs you can buy today, and even today's best OLEDs and miniLEDs can touch the OLED models except for modern niceties like 4K resolution and higher/variable refresh rate. And then if you look at the current and upcoming BVM... not sure we'll ever see that kind of quality in commercial TVs, even after microLED becomes affordable.
This video is amazing you are so underrated! And I think you defended PVM’s pretty good in this video. But nothing will make me drop my KV-32FS1000 with bad bowing and geometry, sorry 😅 but I wish I had a PVM I mean who doesn’t.
I have a 14n6u, love that little guy
Totally underrated monitor
I've always wondered, IF you can capture the look through recording a CRT to show in UA-cam videos, wouldn't it be possible to play that look through emulation eventually?
Anyway, another great video! Thank you!!
If you watched the video through to the end, he had that topic covered by Mike Chi, in a nutshell, Chi made it clear CRTs are never going to truely replaced, but as we progress to higher and higher PPI displays, the higher pixel pitch displays will be able to handle CRT emulation more acurately.
Though to elaborate on what Mike said, it's been shown that 12,000 PPI will be the point to which we can display sprite/pixel games flawlessly as intended on modern panels, 12,000 PPI and beyond will make scalers, processing, AI for various video enhancments, anti-aliasing, all obsolete, all we will need at that point is a simple SLG (scanline-generator), as 12,000 PPI can handle everything from 240p to 4K beautifly.
Super fine pitch modern displays will bring us back to monitors which can handle multiple-resolutions beautifly without any comprimises (like CRTs), aka, multiscan, I canny wait to get a 12,000 PPI mLED (true micro LED, which has 100 to 1 pixel desity vs OLED, so in the space that takes up 1 pixel on an OLED, mLED has 100, this means huge PPI, Pixel-Pitch, CD/m2/luminance, and resolution upgrades, not to mention they start at 3960hz refresh rates, afordable consumer mLED is another 3-5 years away though, so for now, a Tink4K or something like it (OSSC Pro) and an OLED or Plasma is your go to for CRT emulation, also I really hope someone, perhaps Mike Chi himself, would produce a decent modern legacy gaming monitor, with a 4:3 RGB-OLED, with native rolling-bar/raster-scan simulataion, a built in Tink 4K, SLG, mClassic or an updated version, and most important of all, real curved glass, and a real AG/Shadow-mask/slot-mask grid built into the panel.
@@Wobble2007 yes lol
His newest video touches on this, so I'd predict the Retrotink 8k will blow past all these issues in 2028
Anyone watching here in the New England Area that knows where to get a CRT serviced? I have a 27" Flat Sony Trintron. It looks great with component but the geometry is bad enough to annoy me . I only know of one place but they might not be able to help with this issue (been to them before and all they did was try to degauss it and that didn't resolve the issue).
wait how does the TVL determine scanline thickness
I would love to see a comparison between PVMs and Sony FV310 with RGB mod or JVC D Series with RGB mod. Would it be possible in a future video?
Absolutely not 😅
44:00 🙌🏻🙏🏻😇
30:37 It's not a fair comparison between a bad TV and a PVM.
My 21" Sony Wega from 2006 has great geometry and produces a clear image on the entire screen
20” WEGAs are phenomenal tubes. I only noticed issues when you start increasing the size
Really interesting, thanks! Could've done without the rabbit bit tho.
I skipped it 5 seconds at a time and survived.
I’m glad you’re ok! 😂
33:10 I dont know why people continue to lie to themselves
The PVM looks horrible compared to the Haier
240p games were not meant to be played on high res tubes
The Genesis outputs around 292/293 horizontal lines after PAR adjustment(320 x (32/35) or 256 x (8/7))
Devs used higher res professional monitors to edit the graphics easier obviously but 240p games do not look good
Memelines are an artifact and have always been
The image was not meant to be oversharpened and blocky
You will see this one day when we get +10000PPI displays and people start integer scaling these games to those kind of pixel densities. It will look all smooth with barely any aliasing like the low res consumer tube/240p handheld LCD screens but without the screendoor effect and everybody who thought that blocky mess that is integer scaling in todays low PPI screens was "raw pixels" will eat crow and realize how stupid they have been all along
First thought seeing this "Oh no"
The judge should recuse himself given he owns more than one PVM :)
Just keep an eye on govdeals. They sell the surplus state and gov crap they want gone. Every once in a while you can get a Pvm/Bvm for dirt cheap, usually local pickup only unless you hire courier. Sometimes there are literal pallets of them for under 100 bucks.
Just looked, in Columbus OH there is a PVM-2950Q with a laserdisc player, 7 days left currently at 12 bucks.
@@etgripper👀😮
@@TheMikeyb86 I'm all stocked up my wife would go nuts if I brought more monitors home :P just spreading the word.
@@etgripperthanks for the heads up