For the gamers, this is about floorhug option selecting and not CC/FH while moving/after hit once. Forbidden SSDI when committed to another action seems like the best solution to still allow aggressive fh's/amsah teching/slideoffs without making it a +1 to every option. None of those words are in the bible Edit: I included them in the video, but if you want some other perspectives on floorhugging or a deeper understanding, here's some resources. ua-cam.com/video/rYCAN8U37go/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/sI-39iQuYgA/v-deo.html
@@aiacfrosti1772 nope, "forbidden sdi" is a known mechanic in melee, although I don't understand it well enough to explain it. I also don't understand how it translates to rivals 2's SSDI mechanic. But it wasn't a typo; "Forbidden SSDI" is also alluded to in the video.
my jaw DROPPED after seeing loxodont roll full screen holy shit Very good breakdown of what's going on here, hopefully it brings more discussion into what can be done about this mechanic.
@@lordmew5 Rivals 2 is 100% made for competitive players in mind, even more than Rivals 1 was, because Rivals 2 is now going straight for the Melee players who would never switch to Rivals 1 due to the artstyle, lack of shields and grabs, etc. In fact, I have no idea what your comment is even about, maybe try to make your point a little clearer.
The fact that floor hugging can be done while you are inactionable during the lag of an attack is what really sets it apart from other defensive options. Unlike rolls, spot dodge or parry which require a correct guess of when your opponent will attack during neutral, FH doesn't require that commitment or correct decision making. The depth of fighting games comes from the decision making between a wide array of options, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. This forces both players to be constantly adapting to their opponent and switching between all of their options to try a get a leg up over them. However, in the case of FH, there aren't any other options to choose between, since FH is the only thing you can do when inactionable. It becomes a choice of do nothing and get punished by whatever the opponent chooses, or floor hug and invalidate a huge number of your opponents options. Even if you mistime your FH you're in no worse a position than if you didn't try for it. It's a no brainer that you'll try for a floor hug, and a no brainer that your opponent will just stick to options that beat floor hugging, which makes the gameplay stale and limiting. The only argument you could make is that FH is an execution test. You could bank on your opponent missing the timing of their FH and choose to go for a better combo starter that loses to FH, but I just don't think the risk/reward is worth it. The FH timing doesn't seem terribly strict, and the fact that it completely swings things from being hit to hitting your opponent is extremely strong. One of the strengths of platform fighters imo is the degree of counterplay and control that the defending player has with DI, tech options, etc, but those options just reduce the damage you take or at best return you to neutral. Not sure exactly what should be done, but some changes definitely should be made.
In a game with DI, spot dodges, techs, parries, and also just movement in general thanks to it being a platform fighter, and Crouch Canceling too, Floorhugging doesn't need to exist. Even if we lessen how useful floor hugging is, it'll always just be a superior option to the others, unless the others just GIVE you a free kill, which isn't balanced. It should just honestly be removed. Crouch Canceling is meant to be the base version of it, does a lot of similar things, but has a drawback. Floor Hugging doesn't need to exist due to CCing existing in general.
I love it when people who have never played melee or PM just lie. Floor hugging makes for terrible DI, meaning that if you floor hug, especially during an inactionable state and the other player accounts for that, then you almost certainly will die because of bad DI.
@lordmew5 fair enough, that's my bad for forgetting to talk about DI. I do wonder if the risk reward is still too skewed, particularly at lower percents when DIing poorly won't result in you being killed. Not to mention that FH and CC seem to work well into mid percentages in Rivals 2 rather than just lower percents in Melee. It just feels like it's been put into rivals because it's in melee without accounting for the differences between the games
The answer is simple: make sure that an attack deals the full hitstun, even if the opponent lands on the ground in the middle of the stun animation. In fact, this is SO simple that it's what all the later smash games did, which is what made most dragdown combos possible. This would still allow for Amsah techs and true CC, but remove most of the incentive for floorhugs. We could even compromise by preserving air-to-ground hitstun but eliminating ground-to-air hitstun, which would enable slideoff reversals.
@@lordmew5 It's still an obvious option select at every percent but kill percent, and you shouldn't conflate Melee and Rivals 2 like they have the same engine and balancing. Just because it may be balanced in melee doesn't necessarily make its implementation in Rivals2 good by default.
Good explanation, i was having a lot of trouble dealing with floorhugging and its good to know that im not just terrible for thinking its a little overtuned
The more accurate sf6 example would be trying to confirm into a laggy special after landing a minus on hit jab there’s a reason you don’t get full combos off of every hit in every good fighting game…
@@user-et3xn2jm1u i mispoke a bit, minus jabs DO exist, but sf6 only has +0 jabs at worst. Regardless, you are only allowed to do limited things off of jabs, even on hit, and those are scaled much heavier; another balancing factor. It's hard to make a true comparison when it's a different FG genre and the example shown originally was dumb anyway.
CC is fine, it's a powerful tech to counter your opponent but leaving you clearly open to reaction since you're evidently crouching to their attacks, while also taking a chunk of damage in return. But Floor hugging is basically CC on crack, without even making it obvious that you're gonna do it, and i personally think it's TOO much, should get erased from the game or harshly nerfed.
I think we're being babies by complaining for CC and floorhugging. Melee players have been developing meta and counterplay for 20 years and have no problem with an even more powerful version of those techs. Particularly in this game CC is just fine and already has counterplay, floorhugging is something i could see becoming a problem in the future, but at the same time I still have to see someone use it, like, ever💀, so let's just wait and see how the meta develops and stop dooming on a game that JUST came out.
The game would be better without CC/floorhugging. If you want a way to deal with aerial spam then the game already has a parry button. If you guess wrong or miss parry then get punished; that’s fighting games. CC and floor hugging’s only risk is percent and considering how much percent you can take and still do this it’s basically no risk at all. There’s no decision making on the defender’s part. On the attacker’s part, you should be rewarded for getting a hit in neutral. Not every hit should give you a crazy amount of plus frames, but I can’t think of a single modern fighting game where it isn’t at least your turn after getting a non projectile or non poke hit in. Just because this is the case for Smash doesn’t mean it’s a good concept. After CC became prevalent in Melee I started to have a lot less fun with it, but understood it as a necessary evil as it helped some matchups that felt impossible (Falcon vs Sheik) and Melee is not getting patched, but Rivals doesn’t have that problem. At this point there’s no MU that feels unwinnable without CC. The parry button is a good defensive mechanic already, you can’t get shield poked, and wave dash OoS is pretty good at creating space. There’s plenty of defensive options already. It’s mechanics like these that put off my FGC friends from playing this game. Rivals 2 is doing a lot to help this like no chain grabs and a better ledge, but getting nothing off of the majority of your attacks cuz of one mechanic is still off putting. This matters cuz I feel like this could be the game to help bridge FGC and platform fighter communities. No Nintendo, game is easy to access, and there’s no glitchy jank to be had, but I can see CC and its philosophy to be off putting; even some smashers don’t like it.
I'm a huge smash fan, and love the idea of Rivals even more, and I'm not a fan at all of floor hugging. The version where you actually have to crouch before being hit, makes total sense, but being able to react after you've been hit turning into an uno reverse card for hitting your opponent successfully makes me feel like viable gameplay options will be very limited at top level play.
@@timm8o475so like, this is a thing that matters at higher levels of play. Its a timed input to floorhug like this so you do need to 1:know to do it and 2:execute properly. Its not terribly hard but at low levels and casual play, it doesnt come up very often, so dont let this stop you from playing with your friends or just queueing online. I think the game is a lot of fun for casual competition but once people are good enough that they can start ignoring 70% of your neutral options, the fun factor goes downhill.
@@timm8o475 don't be a bitch, if you are a non-fighting game player, then these small technicalities are of no relevance to you. Stop trying to rationalize away your friends' suggestions.
Thanks for summarzing what's wrong with that mechanic: "It isn't fun". That's honestly the only argument that's needed. I thought it was a bug because of how stupid it looks ingame, before I talked with some closed beta players and they explained that it's intended.
As a melee player who has played rivals and felt how brutal the floorhugging is in this game, I think it mainly comes down to moves simply not being strong enough. After around 30-40%, for example in a fox ditto, you can't just throw out garbage then floorhug your way out of these scenarios because you won't get a punish against the vast majority of his moveset (exemptions are jabs and ftilt if you perfectly time it) CC and options like it in Melee work really well because while you ARE locked out of some moves before around 30-40% it's not nearly as much of a hindrance, and can test both players' resolve to not be lazy and just rely on hitting their opponent and not having a plan for what will happen after they land said hit (best example is foxes doing rising shorthop nairs before 50-60%) Looking at the gameplay you showed and my own experience, Rivals could really use more hitstun on moves that aren't late hits, its kinda sad seeing visually strong moves do absolutely nothing in the face of a floorhug. I'm also just a big proponent of more hitstun in the game in general because I love melee's combo game and the game so far has felt like playing brawl, you get your two hits then its back to neutral
Either hitstun or endlag, or both. Some moves feel like your character has to eat a Snickers before they're ready to play again. Even without floorhugging, there are moves that are punishable on hit, which never feels right in any game.
@@user-et3xn2jm1u I feel like this is a thing on plat fighters in general, that depending on the move you hit, you will get punished for hitting it because they simply don't suffer enough hitstun/knockback and get punished for winning a neutral interaction. Although some can argue that this also happens in traditional FGs if you land hits that can't be combo'd outta them.
Well, I'm not really sure if it's moves not being strong enough or melee's particular top and high tiers being on the lighter side so many people actually forget how good floor hugging and crouch canceling are in melee. Floor hugging is a very integral part of luigi, bowser, ice climbers, Zelda, and samus's gameplay, and there are even more who where it's a very good part of the gameplan. This is why filthy Doc kids should be banned or worse. They have ruined melee and platform fighting games with misguided understanding of melee.
There are so many strong defensive options in this game. Shields, DI, parrying, MOVEMENT, you can even easily invincible ledgedash That makes it even more confusing that the devs haven't just drawn a line and said "you got hit, suffer the consequences"
Thank you, I have not been able to understand floorhugging after taking a break from playing the betas, and finally I get a good explanation. And wow…yeah I hate that. That needs to go, suddenly I feel much less interested if that’s what it takes to “””get better”””
I agree but I would also like to state that if Aether Studios can find a way to successfully remove it, or nerf it severely, I think the game would hands down best the best plat fighter
I learnt about this a couple of days ago when I kept being unable to followup my tilts and jab on clairen. And after some testing got VERY pissed because I was starting too realize, against a good player it means most of clairen's kit CANNOT actually chain into anything if they're FHing or CCing. Unironically terrible, I really hope that gets changed.
I do feel like this may be part of why i haven't been enjoying the experience of 2 as much as 1. I feel like I'm encouraged and rewarded for playing a bit lamer. Rivals 2 has a lot of neat and cool options and the potential for some really cool plays, but i never felt the need or desire to ever go for them when sticking close to the ground was so much safer and yielded more success. I knew a bout crouch canceling from 1, but i haven't been paying too close of attention to developing tech to help test the raw experience of going in from Rivals 1, and I can at least say that while i wasn't aware of the term I DID notice the ability to punish people for just hitting me on the ground. With wall jumping not being nearly as prevalent as well, I never really feel the urge to risk going offstage unless im well in the lead. While i do like more grounded gameplay in general, this is a bit much and almost cheapens the tight neutral of grounded play in a platform fighter.
That prob was rollback if you used a high knockback move at 60. This vid blows it way out of proportion, without floorhugging every single character in the game is capable of doing an infinite or true combining you till over 100
yeah, to be fair the official ressources are incomplete on that. But that sounds more like a crouch cancel example to be honest. I can't think of high knockback moves that can be floorhuugged at 60.
As a competitive smash player with many years of experience and grinding under my belt, THANK YOU for this video. My friend and I have so many hours in this game already and we both could tell off the rip something felt off. So many instances of "how did you get out of that combo at that %?" "how did you punish that?!". Thank you for clarifying! haha. Hope the devs fix this soon because this game is sweet.
Very informative! I knew I hated floorhugging since the first beta I played, but I also had no idea it was this strong until I started seeing it in tournaments.
I think the assertion/claim that any move that is beaten by floorhug is just illegal or useless to use is inaccurate/disingenuous. Keep in mind that with recent changes, you have to SSDI down on command/reaction to floorhug, you can't just buffer it. So you can still play neutral and mixups in a way where you can get openings with floorhuggable attacks because you conditioned your opponent to think they don't need to floorhug at that exact moment. This kind of counterplay has existed for years in Melee. I think we're too quick to say a mechanic is bad and chalk it up to "only this can be done about it" or "moves that are beat by it are now illegal". The game isn't even out yet, counterplay takes a long time to develop.
We've been discussing the merits and demerits of floorhug for years, and while I see that it can enable certain moves to be really strong while having balanced use (like jabs), I think the trade-offs are not worth it. no one will ever say that it's intuitive to press down when getting hit to cancel weak knockback or do the same thing with shield and down to tech medium knockback. Even in melee this is probably the most controversial mechanic
I totally understand the "counterplay takes a long time to develop" argument when it comes to things like character balance, but this is a core mechanic of the game. If I was a new player getting dumpstered by floorhugging, I would be more likely to quit the game than to try and develop counterplay. I feel like it and L Cancelling are the 2 melee mechanics that just don't make sense to put into any other game, the only reason anyone would ever think to put floorhugging in intentionally is because it was in melee
@@williamw8590 it being a "core mechanic of the game" does not make it exempt from the truth that counterplay takes a long time to develop. that concept doesn't only apply to character balance lmfao, it applies to all mechanics in the game. you also saying that the "only reason anyone would ever think to put floorhugging in is because it was in melee" is also completely ignorant lol. respectfully, everything you just said is proving my point - you implying that it being a "core mechanic" makes it exempt from counterplay taking long, and saying that it's only here bc of Melee, just very clearly shows to me you are talking without understanding the nuance of floorhugging and what counterplay DOES and COULD exist. and that's fine, i'm not judging you for not understanding it yet. but when it comes to fighting games - these games are fucking difficult. and just because as a newer or lower level player you don't understand how certain things work, or those things don't "feel good" to you yet, doesn't mean you should just dismiss it as unintuitive, unnecessary, or straight up a bad mechanic. you gotta put in the work and hours to slowly better understand how things work and see if you can find counterplay. honestly, this applies to to everyone who does not have high level competitive experience in a game where floorhugging exists.
@@Chr1sT0funo one in platform fighter history is okay with getting punished for winning the neutral and getting a hit. This is an objectively bad mechanic.
Honestly as someone coming from rivals 1 with little experience from melee or pm, I feel as if they overcorrected from having too few defensive options to too many. Alot of strong moves already cancel into shield in a short ammount of time, while CC can invalidate some moves at low percents or if the move has a fixed knockback. Personally I would just remove floor hugging and make it impossible to ssdi into a grounded state(or remove ssd :P). I also find crouch canceling a bit annoying but it's manageable if you're mindful.
Look. I'm a P+ player who came from ult (I have never played Melee, started P+ about three years ago) where there's little to no CC/floorhugging. I used to feel a similar way about CC which is much stronger in PM. People are making the mistake of thinking CC/floorhugging is some god option that just disables half the moves in the game instead of something you're able to interact with in neutral. It is not a laundry list of moves you aren't allowed to use if they lose to ASDI down, not at all. What you're not considering is your opponent has an option after they need to throw out from wherever their place is after they take the attack. For example I've seen people regularly using sweetspot Zetter FAir on grounded opponents to counter CC/ASDI down even though it doesn't actually knock them out of CC, but it has enough pushback that it prevents the Zetter from getting hit by nearly every option they can use directly out of CC in the game. So if, say, an Orcane is mashing a dtilt and I hit their CC with a Zetter FAir, I can respond to that and counter their dtilt by jumping over it and dtilting. I just punished them for trying to CC without using a move that directly "beats" it, and they got punished extra hard because they took extra damage from that interaction since you still take damage while CCing. This is just one example of many many interactions in the game, of course the Orcane can do something else and that's where the layers of mixup end up building. This pushback interaction is extremely relevant because it also rewards using CC offensively. For example if you hard read somebody will use a fadeback aerial on your approach, you can overextend a run past them, crouch directly under them, and get rewarded with a CC grab into a big punish for your commitment. Overly safe aerials are a big problem in plat fighters (Ult especially I know has this issue) and CC helps mitigate that with an interactive mechanic, because its not like running up to someone and crouching without throwing out attacks is safe, it could easily backfire into you getting grabbed or hit with a meteor if your opponent anticipates you're going to run up on them. Finally there are two big differences in Rivals 2 that make CC weaker than in Melee/PM that aren't mentioned. The first is that there are much more moves that can just beat CC/ASDI down at 0 because in PM/Melee there is a flat 4 frames of hitstun (empty landing lag), but in Rivals it scales with the attack used, meaning stronger attacks will be able to break it more easily. ASDI down also cannot be buffered meaning your opponent has to react, you can abuse this to bait reactions and bad DI out of people. I completely understand people's frustration because I agree it’s not a super intuitive mechanic to learn. I think having good in-game tutorials in the future would help a ton. But I think its super interesting and fun to play with and around, and I think most people will come around to it with enough time in the game.
I'd been running into this since the betas and had a hard time placing the issue exactly, feeling like I was getting punished for hitting moves, it was very frustrating, but yeah this is exactly it. Great video, I hope they address this.
I was trying to figure out why I kept getting punished for landing hits. I thought it was just clairens non tipper moves were that bad. Thanks for enlightening me.
This sums up how I used to feel about cc and asdi down in melee but now I disagree after getting more used to it. In theory it vastly limits what openings and punishes you can go for but in practice there's many reasons someone would be hitting any other direction but down in a whole bunch of situations in even just one match. Grabs being the strongest counterplay to it is interesting because otherwise grab whiffs are slow and make most grab attempts very risky but when you can tell someone is looking to floorhug they're usually a lot easier to grab. It doesn't become a solely winning option but rather it shifts the weight of rps interactions such that less safe options become situationally very valuable. Maybe in rivals it could be tweaked like the tech momentum carrying over being fixed, but as a concept it adds more to neutral than what it takes from it.
What I'm not understanding is, why shouldn't grab be a generally risky option? It tends to lead to some of the highest reward depending on situation (b/f throw at certain percents being free kills if you land them, most throws start combos, chain grabs exist etc.) It just seems unnecessary to have a mechanic that promotes grab from being "A good but risky option to mix into your offense" to "the only thing you can rely on working until ~50%". Grabs tend to be at their healthiest in fighting games when they're used sparingly, mostly to catch people blocking too much.
@@runeblade6596 from all the tournament gameplay I’ve watched, I barely see FH being used. I just don’t really see it as a huge problem , and if it becomes one, I think the devs would fix it bc they actually came about competitive players
@@Gemini_Hero it's still just as risky to whiff a grab, but the fact that grabs are good makes floor hugging risky too since you're less mobile while fishing for it. So now it loops back to encouraging you to stay mobile to avoid getting grabbed
@@runeblade6596 For fishing for floor hugs in neutral, I think that's a pretty reasonable take. I think the main thing being called out in the video is being able to floorhug in response to whiffing a move and getting punished, leading to a reversal state even after you made a large error in offense. That, to me, is less creating interesting counterplay and more arbitrarily limiting gameplay options.
This was an incredibly succinct video. I deliberately avoided watching any videos about Rivals 2 strategies because I wanted to get a vanilla feel for the game so I could compare with context. I have been trying to figure out exactly why it seemed like others were just not getting lambasted as hard as I was, and this is absolutely 90% of the reason. Going back in for a couple matches after this, I can see where this is getting me, which has been helpful. Idk how much I'll enjoy this game with this mechanic, but I'm now at least aware of it.
I was wondering why it looked like I was being punished on hit I just thought the character they were using was crazy good or mine just has really bad frames
All this time, I thought you had to time the shield press to get the floorhug tech roll. Thank you for validating my opinion. They gotta tone cc and floorhug way down
As a RoA1 player, when I first played RoA2, I was wondering why a lot of my combo starters were working despite me hitting the opponent. Transitioning between games was hard, and I think this video highlights the problem well. Thanks :)
The thing is whether intentional or not melee actually had a good balance to crouch cancelling by making it not work after a certain percent. The mechanic is fine when it’s an option vs an all encompassing solution. Also getting punished for a jab when your opponent is at 200% does not feel great.
And I was wondering why nobody parried in this game, this is *so much better* than that in every way possible, it really belittles every other defensive option out there
yeah call me crazy but being true punished when I successfully land a hit on my opponent is never fun, for any reason it almost like thats the entire principle of fighting games as a whole: land a hit and get rewarded this is why i hate both crouch cancelling and floor hugging
@@germangonzalez4347 I mean i also dont like counters conceptually, but those at least can be fun to bait out and get a really strong hit I can't bait out crouch cancelling to punish them in endlag, you know lol
After trying the demo, I feel hesitant in getting the game. The SF6 perfectly shows how Floor hugging ruins the conventional rock paper scissors dynamic that I enjoy engaging with.
Great video, I honestly didn't realize just how strong floor hugging was despite doing it all the time. I have definitely felt like in this game playing as kragg for example I need to press the kragg rivals of aether 2 button (Down air) or just grab my opponent. In a game where shield grabbing is also already pretty strong I felt like i would just either fish for grab or dair. Alternatively, my opponent and I can play the fun game where we down tilt each other for 2 years before one of us wins.
I agree. I think for me the most annoying part of FH is that it makes me feel like that even though I won neutral by getting through all the disjoint and zoning to finally get the hit, I'm losing because I didn't use a grab or dair to punish. It's not a fun mechanic that adds to the game but rather it feels like it takes away from making build a bear combos. I'm not sure on how to fix it beyond just get rid of it. It could very well just be a problem of just learning to deal with it if you want to play this game, but I'm not sure what the longevity will be with new players that are not coming from Melee/PM.
I’ve been mostly fine with cc’ing but floor hugging was super annoying to both play with and against. When my opponents cc’d, I could easily counter because they were likely to keep doing it. It adds a layer of mind games and mixups to an already 50/50 heavy game, and felt great to both use and fight against. Floor hugging felt extremely oppressive to fight against, especially using loxodont where my big ass axe has less impact than clairens toothpick
Came back to recomment… stay strong brother, they’re coming after you now. Even Leffen lol. Tbh, I like my fighting games where if you get hit, you take your friggin’ lumps. Too many fighting games have “stop hitting me” mechanics that shut down offense, promote camping/turtling, and make me genuinely question why their supporters are playing fighting games at all. The “melee has it” argument doesn’t hold water either, as that game was never designed for competitive play. Just because people are used to something doesn’t mean it’s a good mechanic. Look at it this way: Fighting games have to prioritize offense. The game ends when one player is hit enough times. Prioritizing defense accomplishes nothing, since defense delays that inevitable end.
@@SickGamer45327 never heard that one before, lol. Let me explain that strawman for you… prioritizing offense over defense does not mean “get rid of defensive options”. It means ensuring defensive options bend and conform to offensive play, as opposed to the opposite. Repeat: There is nothing wrong with defense, it’s part of the attack > defend > grab triad.
Whoever liked my comment you're shit at the game. Get good. Every single move that you can CC you can no LONGER cc after a certain percent. It just prevents people from spamming weak attacks at low %.
This makes perfect sense. I always knew that low percent gameplay in rivals 2 felt like a complete mess. I, like many others, though it was CC. I still think CC should be toned down (you should not be able to CC three strongs IN A ROW imo) but Floor hugging absolutely makes the early percent game a complete mess. Especially with shields as good as they are.
I placed gold and in the little time I played floorhugging wasn't super prevalent. CC was, but it still sounds like something that can be super oppressive once people get good at it. I don't know if I like how strong holding down is in general. It feels stronger than shielding and parrying which is weird for what is essentially the quaternary main defensive option so it's probably only going to get stronger from here. Maybe it's because I come from Ultimate but shield feels very weak in general. If I had to rank it it would be something like: CC/FH > Parry > Spotdodge > Shield. It's not bad per se, just very unintuitive for me.
it’s pretty ironic because in their efforts to make the game more accessible by adding generous buffer systems, they made the game less accessible because it causes tech like floor hugging to be required to know to improve due to how easy it is to pull of with the current system. this is by far my favorite fighting game ever so far so i have hopes they will find a way to rework it for release
i agree, its like... why i do attack if I'm going to be punished by starting a combo, something that should be IF IT CONNECTS a good thing. I really wish they disable that, because if that's the case, all controllers will be technically tied all the time to down, i know it's something that melee and smash mods has but... it's one of the bad stuff that shouldn't be in a fighting game in the first place, in case for rivals, we can manouver to get survivability with some characters without crouching
They need to remove CC and floor hugging all together. It was what made melee feel unbearable from a competitive player perspective and made the game feel one dimensional.
I think this video hits the nail on the head for why floor hugging is really unfun from the perspective of the attacker, but I also wanna add that I think it's really not that fun for the floorhugger as much as it isn't fun for the floorhuggee. While getting hit near the ground, there's basically no decision making taking place when deciding to floorhug - low or high percent, it never seems bad to attempt to floorhug a move even if the opponent counters with a spike or throw. To add that input along with the already present mindgames when getting hit (throw tech, DI, SDI) is just cumbersome, especially when the other defensive options I feel have more interactive and fun counterplay for both the attacker and defender by themselves. I don't wanna have to think about tapping down along with every other system that's present in the game at every present moment that I'm around the opponent. (Also, could definitely be wrong about the things above and please contest or give any other insights you'd like. I'm not an expert here) Edit: Having heard some more opinions on twitter in the past couple days following this video, I think i can understand why this mechanic exists a little more. I still think most of what I said about floorhug still rings true to me, but I'm gonna file my complaint as a semi skill issue since I think I'm just too used to the way that rivals 1 handles defense and getting hit. Interested to see how the rivals team develops this mechanic
I think this is very true. Any time games require you to just do an input regardless of a situation 'just because its good' always feels bad. I have played melee for a really really really long time, and I am super used to L-Cancelling things so it has never bothered me, but I still think its a pointless mechanic because like you said, its one more thing to do that really has no purpose or thought behind it, its just sheerly an extra input. To summarize; inputs that are not decisions are boring.
This game is played on 3 stocks and it's common to live to 150% and beyond. You could say floorhugging is strong or moves are weak, and they would mean the same thing. Combos are a lot more hit-spammy in this game than in Melee, due to a lot of combo moves having less knockback and hitstun, but this results in floorhugging working outside of situations it should work in. Less hitstun means the opponent isn't locked out of as many options, and it also means that if you miss an attack or try to delay your followup in a combo that requires a million hits, the opponent might already be out of hitstun by then. If combo moves are given more hitstun and knockback scaling, long combos wouldn't be as long, you'd at least get more stage control after missing a follow up, and there would be a stronger case for delaying your follow ups to extend combos. Right now, combos actually feel limited in some ways. As for floorhugging, I will say that you can just floorhug back unless they punish with a grab. So either you grab them first, use a multihit or a spike, or use a strong move that knocks down, and if they Amsah tech too far away to punish, take the free stage control. Another counter is to space your attacks so that opponents can't grab you out of a floorhug. This allows you floorhug back without much risk.
Isn’t this just melee’s metagame? Floorhugging, or ASDI down for melee, defines entire matchups at early percents, but the top tiers have specific and very powerful tools that they can use to beat it until they’re at too high a percent to do it anymore. I do agree that it’s a silly mechanic though.
@@Stinkbug_AbI don’t even think it is better in this game if anything it’s stronger in melee, it’s just that this game is new, so we aren’t good at beating cc yet, and the engine lets you jab and tilt more freely so we see jabs and tilts losing to cc that we wouldn’t in melee
@BatpegBackAgain its for sure a little stronger and easier but you're take is very valid its an easy tech to get a hold of and can feel annoying to new players
I think this really seizes on it for me. It's a lot less about how another game has it and people still play it, and more about whether or not it's actually worth replicating and putting into a completely different game. Like yeah Melee has it and people play it competitively. Melee also has grabs that miss on the z-axis, L-Cancelling, tap jump forced on, multi-hit moves that never combo, varying jumpsquat frames that make several members of the cast almost unusable, hell some moves like Roy dash attack literally just don't have hitboxes on them at certain frames. Only an asylum patient would want to recreate Melee perfectly with every mechanic it had intact. It's a very specific game enjoyed by a very specific subset of players, and it's fine staying there. Mechanics need to be ported over on a case by case basis, and with specific purpose. I just don't think Floorhugging survives that analysis personally.
I think this comes from the bigger issue of too much variability when it comes to DI. Like there are moves in this game that if you DI them badly could mean the difference between dying at the ledge at %20 or living to %150
Thank you for articulating my main issue with the game in its current state. I honestly thought it was happening because the moves were very different from rivals 1
People don’t realize how much of a problem this is, and a problem not exclusive to rivals 2, characters live up to stupidly high percents, there is no killing with stray hits, only kill confirms, grabs aren’t as good of a punish option as they are in other plat fighters, and it baffles me that they attempted to nerf this mechanic since the beta but they haven’t been able to balance it, it either needs to be removed or reworked, in melee crouch canceling in itself is a mechanic that single handedly nerfs a majority of the roster, and a big reason why low and mid tiers struggle in general, and top tiers are good because they have ways to invalidate crouch canceling in their kits, I know rivals and melee are very different games, but crouch canceling and itself was a bad mechanic in melee that I wished was removed or reworked, since being able to just invalidate weak moves by just holding down is already stupid enough, and with floor hugging ON TOP of that it becomes exactly what is said in the video, unfun
It's not the same thing, It does have crouch cancelling as well though. The main difference is this is done in reaction to getting hit, not as a read/safety option before getting hit. It's due to how the engine makes wavedashing/wavelanding easier, the ASDI on hit just makes you cling like a short mostly downward waveland but without the lag of jumpsquat/airdodge landing.
Rivals 1 was neat because it removed some defensive options like shielding and ledgegrabbing, but replaced them with new defensive options. Rivals 2 added all of those back in, plus more. Even stuff like ledge specials can be considered a defensive option. There is too much.
wow, I did NOT know about this. It looks like the kind of thing that would make me incredibly confused and just not want to play if it kept happening to me. crouch cancelling also seems a little confusing but what, maybe it's harder to do in the heat of the moment? like you have to just assume that you're 100% getting hit and there are only certain situations it happens in? but idk, a lot of down tilts pop people up so for you to be able to just "crouch cancel" a whole ass pop up is confusing to me I'm not super great at fighting games, decent, but nothing too good. Thought I should mention that.
I don't know if they fixed it already, but I hear that the developers are very receptive to criticism, so I think floor hugging will be fixed in the future.
almost af is it was intended to whiff punish with grab. Also you showed a shield grab when you wanted to demonstrate a floorhug grab punish. That was probably a mistake. also comparing it to street fighter is not a good example imo because it is not intended to combo off regular throws there and the game has slower movement and no platforms. There are much more floorhug safe moves when your opponent is on a platform. opinion not really thought out imo.
Bad game design is still bad game design. Whiff punishes can be avoided through wavedashing, jumping or spot dodging. The fact that floorhugging ads another defensive/offensive option makes it harder to punish & breaks the rock paper scissors formula what a fighting game is known for. You are blind af to see that cuz you love the game too much Critisms are needed to help the game live longer
Floorhuggung has a very "l-cancel" type of feel to me. At high levels of play its non-optional and it creates a near insurmountable gap of skill between those who can and cannot do it. Crouch canceling is actually a kinda nice mechanic. You trade some health and you have to preempt the opponents move by crouching but in return you can get a giant punish. Thats cool as hell. If floorhugging only worked in situations you could have crouch canceled then it would be fine, but he fact that you can use floorhugging to literally flip a punish situation is actually ridiculous.
my guy u literally just pick a direction with ur control stick. u can beat every option this guy talks about in this video by just grabbing. stop pressing random buttons in neutral and adapt to ur opponent. if they are cc/floor hugging then grab them to get a free punish. i don’t see how this possibly makes a skill gap other than for people who actually suck at fighting games.
@@arabmunny the problem is that pressing random buttons in neutral is SAFE with floorhugging. Getting a whiff punish is actually adapting to your opponent, it's like the exact opposite of just throwing shit out in neutral. I like Crouch canceling, I think it should stay. It's floorhugging that needs to go.
I don't think it's comparable to l-cancelling outside of it being mandatory. L cancelling opens up more options for everyone and makes the game more fun. Floorhugging does literally the opposite.
@arabmunny My brother in christ, grab being the only counter is literally the issue lmfao. The game just boils down to spamming floorhug and grabs at a high level. The issue is floorhugging has no mechanical depth or nuance, you can completely whiff and instead of getting punished for whiffng, you can just floorhug and reset neutral/get advantage for free. If it functioned the way it does in melee it wouldn't be a problem.
@@DaisiesTC u obviously don’t play melee because it does not work like that at all. it’s far more broken. mix up ur timing, use a move that spikes, fucking grab combo, there is plenty counterplay if ur actually good at adapting. u can’t buffer the input, they have to time the floorhug. if u mix ur timing by literally even 2 frames the floorhug doesn’t work. get good, stop spamming punishable moves in neutral. if ur opponent sees u grabbing them constantly to beat their floorhug and they KEEP floor hugging then it’s not high level gameplay. sorry to tell u.
Amazing video, short and succinct and gets to the heart of the problem quickly. Definitely agree that this is an issue, have felt it in my own games, espeically with the teching out of hits. It's extremely frustrating to get a combo opener only to get uno reverse carded.
I enjoy CC being strong to make a percent lead something thats significant so fast characters cant just win neutral with any random move they feel like throwing out. I hate asdi/floorhugging though. Remove that shit.
You sounds like Core A gaming. but this reminds of the Smash ultimate Steve's PLMG tech where you can cancel the momentum of whatever attack and that can kill people of playing the game
This is purely anecdotal and self important but floor hugging is the reason I won’t be buying this game. I would like to play the game on a slightly more than casual level and this mechanic simply doesn’t sound fun to learn or work around. Sure it adds some mechanical depth and it means that in neutral you have to think even one step further but it just… feels really bad. From a game design perspective it removes a sense of reward from one player to give an (arguably unwarranted) sense of “escape” to another player and to me that’s hard to justify. With the game having so many other defensive/movement options it doesn’t make sense imo
Nobody will do this to you on a lower rank and nobody will really do this to you a lot generally, I was around bottom platinum and people barely did this at all. I think floor hugging should be removed but the video vastly over exaggerated how bad it is in actual gameplay because it's basically having to time a down input in a 1-3 frame window on reaction to getting hit (you cannot buffer it).
@@bumibomber that may be true now but as time goes on the tech itself will become more widely adopted by lower level players. If the tech is powerful and rewarding enough, the only thing gating usage is time
floor hugging and CC are both options your opponent can chose if theyre choosing it a lot you need to counter play with grab or a downward facing attack or bait them with a wiff and punish their response or if you actually want to improve at the game practice spacing your attacks so they are safe on both wiff and hit
Okay, but, I don't want to practice all of my moves except for three of them so that they are safe on hit. I want to expect my moves to be safe on hit except for maybe a few really laggy or weak-hitting ones. I don't want to get comboed for hitting my opponent, actually.
@@user-et3xn2jm1u well the games not out yet so maybe they'll change it: or maybe they wont and then you'll have to make a decision about what you want out of life
Thanks so much for making this! I've been trying to articulate why this mechanic feels so awful, and this sums it all up, while teaching me details I had wrong, and showing more insanely broken uses. I can't believe you can use this ON HIT, as if there's any sanity to that design. Anyone saying "BUT YOU CAN DI WRONG" like... ok... but that's just DI being DI. For a mostly free and overwhelmingly powerful option, it's a super tilted risk/reward ratio. I also loathe that you can basically just hold down for CC and option select. I'll still argue that it's incredibly easy to use with near-0 comitment, and low risk. If these were niche techs that were sometimes useful, it would be a reward for identifying it in just the right situation. But as is, it's so overwhelming that you HAVE to always take it into account on offense and defense. And it makes so many of the wonderful aspects of the game feel terrible, or outright useless in many situations.
Really hope they do something about this, I trust them to tho. I'm Gon be sad if the game remains unfun because of this and it's a bit scary but it seems unlikely that they'll leave it
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
For the gamers, this is about floorhug option selecting and not CC/FH while moving/after hit once. Forbidden SSDI when committed to another action seems like the best solution to still allow aggressive fh's/amsah teching/slideoffs without making it a +1 to every option. None of those words are in the bible
Edit: I included them in the video, but if you want some other perspectives on floorhugging or a deeper understanding, here's some resources.
ua-cam.com/video/rYCAN8U37go/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/sI-39iQuYgA/v-deo.html
wtf is forbidden SSDI???
@@RiahGreen mistyped "forbidding"
@@aiacfrosti1772 nope, "forbidden sdi" is a known mechanic in melee, although I don't understand it well enough to explain it. I also don't understand how it translates to rivals 2's SSDI mechanic. But it wasn't a typo; "Forbidden SSDI" is also alluded to in the video.
well have you ever considered how the floor feels?? maybe the floor *needs* a hug, come on.
LMAOO
I now know why I've had so many instances of "How did I get punished so quickly after doing that?"
i actually had trouble understanding the difference between CC and floor hugging before this video
Etalus with armor would be a statue with floorhugging and CC in Rivals 2.
holy SHIT i didnt even consider this LMAO
Give me my bear back
Good to see u man
Also yes that would be mad
boy do i have news for you
my jaw DROPPED after seeing loxodont roll full screen holy shit
Very good breakdown of what's going on here, hopefully it brings more discussion into what can be done about this mechanic.
My jaw hit the table bro. (Also, when are you gonna make another video about duels of fortune?🤨)
There is an obvious answer people who don't melee and other good smash games shouldn't play you people are trying to ruin the game
@@lordmew5 you don't even play RoA2 what are you doing
@@lordmew5 Rivals 2 is 100% made for competitive players in mind, even more than Rivals 1 was, because Rivals 2 is now going straight for the Melee players who would never switch to Rivals 1 due to the artstyle, lack of shields and grabs, etc. In fact, I have no idea what your comment is even about, maybe try to make your point a little clearer.
Watch hyperflames video for a good explanation that doesn’t blow this out of proportion
The fact that floor hugging can be done while you are inactionable during the lag of an attack is what really sets it apart from other defensive options. Unlike rolls, spot dodge or parry which require a correct guess of when your opponent will attack during neutral, FH doesn't require that commitment or correct decision making. The depth of fighting games comes from the decision making between a wide array of options, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. This forces both players to be constantly adapting to their opponent and switching between all of their options to try a get a leg up over them. However, in the case of FH, there aren't any other options to choose between, since FH is the only thing you can do when inactionable. It becomes a choice of do nothing and get punished by whatever the opponent chooses, or floor hug and invalidate a huge number of your opponents options. Even if you mistime your FH you're in no worse a position than if you didn't try for it. It's a no brainer that you'll try for a floor hug, and a no brainer that your opponent will just stick to options that beat floor hugging, which makes the gameplay stale and limiting.
The only argument you could make is that FH is an execution test. You could bank on your opponent missing the timing of their FH and choose to go for a better combo starter that loses to FH, but I just don't think the risk/reward is worth it. The FH timing doesn't seem terribly strict, and the fact that it completely swings things from being hit to hitting your opponent is extremely strong. One of the strengths of platform fighters imo is the degree of counterplay and control that the defending player has with DI, tech options, etc, but those options just reduce the damage you take or at best return you to neutral.
Not sure exactly what should be done, but some changes definitely should be made.
In a game with DI, spot dodges, techs, parries, and also just movement in general thanks to it being a platform fighter, and Crouch Canceling too, Floorhugging doesn't need to exist. Even if we lessen how useful floor hugging is, it'll always just be a superior option to the others, unless the others just GIVE you a free kill, which isn't balanced. It should just honestly be removed. Crouch Canceling is meant to be the base version of it, does a lot of similar things, but has a drawback. Floor Hugging doesn't need to exist due to CCing existing in general.
I love it when people who have never played melee or PM just lie. Floor hugging makes for terrible DI, meaning that if you floor hug, especially during an inactionable state and the other player accounts for that, then you almost certainly will die because of bad DI.
@lordmew5 fair enough, that's my bad for forgetting to talk about DI. I do wonder if the risk reward is still too skewed, particularly at lower percents when DIing poorly won't result in you being killed. Not to mention that FH and CC seem to work well into mid percentages in Rivals 2 rather than just lower percents in Melee. It just feels like it's been put into rivals because it's in melee without accounting for the differences between the games
The answer is simple: make sure that an attack deals the full hitstun, even if the opponent lands on the ground in the middle of the stun animation. In fact, this is SO simple that it's what all the later smash games did, which is what made most dragdown combos possible. This would still allow for Amsah techs and true CC, but remove most of the incentive for floorhugs.
We could even compromise by preserving air-to-ground hitstun but eliminating ground-to-air hitstun, which would enable slideoff reversals.
@@lordmew5 It's still an obvious option select at every percent but kill percent, and you shouldn't conflate Melee and Rivals 2 like they have the same engine and balancing. Just because it may be balanced in melee doesn't necessarily make its implementation in Rivals2 good by default.
Rock paper scissor but if your scissors miss, you can switch to paper and win.
When you design Rock-Paper-Scissors but you forget to program in Paper
When you add the well by accident that can only be beat by paper but wins over rock and scissors
Good explanation, i was having a lot of trouble dealing with floorhugging and its good to know that im not just terrible for thinking its a little overtuned
wonder who this guy is...
The Sf6 example actually sent me lmao
The more accurate sf6 example would be trying to confirm into a laggy special after landing a minus on hit jab
there’s a reason you don’t get full combos off of every hit in every good fighting game…
@@Siffa_plus/minus usually refers to it being on block, which floorhugging isn't
@@Siffa_ Not every hit has to kill but if you land a hit you should have the advantage especially if it was a punish
@@Siffa_ sf6 does not have any minus-on-hit jabs. If you can find one, let me know.
@@user-et3xn2jm1u i mispoke a bit, minus jabs DO exist, but sf6 only has +0 jabs at worst. Regardless, you are only allowed to do limited things off of jabs, even on hit, and those are scaled much heavier; another balancing factor.
It's hard to make a true comparison when it's a different FG genre and the example shown originally was dumb anyway.
CC is fine, it's a powerful tech to counter your opponent but leaving you clearly open to reaction since you're evidently crouching to their attacks, while also taking a chunk of damage in return. But Floor hugging is basically CC on crack, without even making it obvious that you're gonna do it, and i personally think it's TOO much, should get erased from the game or harshly nerfed.
I think we're being babies by complaining for CC and floorhugging.
Melee players have been developing meta and counterplay for 20 years and have no problem with an even more powerful version of those techs.
Particularly in this game CC is just fine and already has counterplay, floorhugging is something i could see becoming a problem in the future, but at the same time I still have to see someone use it, like, ever💀, so let's just wait and see how the meta develops and stop dooming on a game that JUST came out.
finally, we can now bully ranked on release. thank you biobirb for unleashing pandora's box onto launch online play
The game would be better without CC/floorhugging. If you want a way to deal with aerial spam then the game already has a parry button. If you guess wrong or miss parry then get punished; that’s fighting games. CC and floor hugging’s only risk is percent and considering how much percent you can take and still do this it’s basically no risk at all. There’s no decision making on the defender’s part.
On the attacker’s part, you should be rewarded for getting a hit in neutral. Not every hit should give you a crazy amount of plus frames, but I can’t think of a single modern fighting game where it isn’t at least your turn after getting a non projectile or non poke hit in. Just because this is the case for Smash doesn’t mean it’s a good concept.
After CC became prevalent in Melee I started to have a lot less fun with it, but understood it as a necessary evil as it helped some matchups that felt impossible (Falcon vs Sheik) and Melee is not getting patched, but Rivals doesn’t have that problem. At this point there’s no MU that feels unwinnable without CC. The parry button is a good defensive mechanic already, you can’t get shield poked, and wave dash OoS is pretty good at creating space. There’s plenty of defensive options already.
It’s mechanics like these that put off my FGC friends from playing this game. Rivals 2 is doing a lot to help this like no chain grabs and a better ledge, but getting nothing off of the majority of your attacks cuz of one mechanic is still off putting. This matters cuz I feel like this could be the game to help bridge FGC and platform fighter communities. No Nintendo, game is easy to access, and there’s no glitchy jank to be had, but I can see CC and its philosophy to be off putting; even some smashers don’t like it.
as a non-fighting game player whose friends REALLY wanted me to try the game, I'm seeing less and less reason to.
I'm a huge smash fan, and love the idea of Rivals even more, and I'm not a fan at all of floor hugging. The version where you actually have to crouch before being hit, makes total sense, but being able to react after you've been hit turning into an uno reverse card for hitting your opponent successfully makes me feel like viable gameplay options will be very limited at top level play.
@@timm8o475so like, this is a thing that matters at higher levels of play.
Its a timed input to floorhug like this so you do need to 1:know to do it and 2:execute properly.
Its not terribly hard but at low levels and casual play, it doesnt come up very often, so dont let this stop you from playing with your friends or just queueing online.
I think the game is a lot of fun for casual competition but once people are good enough that they can start ignoring 70% of your neutral options, the fun factor goes downhill.
@@timm8o475 don't be a bitch, if you are a non-fighting game player, then these small technicalities are of no relevance to you. Stop trying to rationalize away your friends' suggestions.
Thanks for summarzing what's wrong with that mechanic: "It isn't fun".
That's honestly the only argument that's needed. I thought it was a bug because of how stupid it looks ingame, before I talked with some closed beta players and they explained that it's intended.
Oh god, it's INTENDED?! We're so cooked.
As a melee player who has played rivals and felt how brutal the floorhugging is in this game, I think it mainly comes down to moves simply not being strong enough.
After around 30-40%, for example in a fox ditto, you can't just throw out garbage then floorhug your way out of these scenarios because you won't get a punish against the vast majority of his moveset (exemptions are jabs and ftilt if you perfectly time it)
CC and options like it in Melee work really well because while you ARE locked out of some moves before around 30-40% it's not nearly as much of a hindrance, and can test both players' resolve to not be lazy and just rely on hitting their opponent and not having a plan for what will happen after they land said hit (best example is foxes doing rising shorthop nairs before 50-60%)
Looking at the gameplay you showed and my own experience, Rivals could really use more hitstun on moves that aren't late hits, its kinda sad seeing visually strong moves do absolutely nothing in the face of a floorhug. I'm also just a big proponent of more hitstun in the game in general because I love melee's combo game and the game so far has felt like playing brawl, you get your two hits then its back to neutral
Either hitstun or endlag, or both. Some moves feel like your character has to eat a Snickers before they're ready to play again. Even without floorhugging, there are moves that are punishable on hit, which never feels right in any game.
The moves would be stronger if there were no floorhugging.
@@user-et3xn2jm1u
I feel like this is a thing on plat fighters in general, that depending on the move you hit, you will get punished for hitting it because they simply don't suffer enough hitstun/knockback and get punished for winning a neutral interaction. Although some can argue that this also happens in traditional FGs if you land hits that can't be combo'd outta them.
Well, I'm not really sure if it's moves not being strong enough or melee's particular top and high tiers being on the lighter side so many people actually forget how good floor hugging and crouch canceling are in melee. Floor hugging is a very integral part of luigi, bowser, ice climbers, Zelda, and samus's gameplay, and there are even more who where it's a very good part of the gameplan. This is why filthy Doc kids should be banned or worse. They have ruined melee and platform fighting games with misguided understanding of melee.
@@lordmew5 Amen brother, also the slippi kids are better at that bollocks anyways
There are so many strong defensive options in this game. Shields, DI, parrying, MOVEMENT, you can even easily invincible ledgedash
That makes it even more confusing that the devs haven't just drawn a line and said "you got hit, suffer the consequences"
Thank you, I have not been able to understand floorhugging after taking a break from playing the betas, and finally I get a good explanation. And wow…yeah I hate that. That needs to go, suddenly I feel much less interested if that’s what it takes to “””get better”””
Good stay out, you're a degenerate who likes bad games we don't want you
different genre but it feels like cancel sliding in warzone, like no I'll play an fps that doesn't have obnoxious movement
I agree but I would also like to state that if Aether Studios can find a way to successfully remove it, or nerf it severely, I think the game would hands down best the best plat fighter
They say Loxodont is still tech rolling across the entire fire capital to this day.
The future is saved...
Soo... "get punished for punish a swift, and there's a posibility that your punish of the punish get punished"
I learnt about this a couple of days ago when I kept being unable to followup my tilts and jab on clairen. And after some testing got VERY pissed because I was starting too realize, against a good player it means most of clairen's kit CANNOT actually chain into anything if they're FHing or CCing.
Unironically terrible, I really hope that gets changed.
This video suddenly makes my brief time with the demo make more sense as to what was happening when I'd get punished for trying to punish something.
I do feel like this may be part of why i haven't been enjoying the experience of 2 as much as 1. I feel like I'm encouraged and rewarded for playing a bit lamer. Rivals 2 has a lot of neat and cool options and the potential for some really cool plays, but i never felt the need or desire to ever go for them when sticking close to the ground was so much safer and yielded more success. I knew a bout crouch canceling from 1, but i haven't been paying too close of attention to developing tech to help test the raw experience of going in from Rivals 1, and I can at least say that while i wasn't aware of the term I DID notice the ability to punish people for just hitting me on the ground.
With wall jumping not being nearly as prevalent as well, I never really feel the urge to risk going offstage unless im well in the lead. While i do like more grounded gameplay in general, this is a bit much and almost cheapens the tight neutral of grounded play in a platform fighter.
R 2 brought so much defense into the game.
Omg so I was not tripping when I was like “your at 60 and I just hit you with a high knock back move. Why did you go nowhere and hit me?????”
That prob was rollback if you used a high knockback move at 60. This vid blows it way out of proportion, without floorhugging every single character in the game is capable of doing an infinite or true combining you till over 100
yeah, to be fair the official ressources are incomplete on that. But that sounds more like a crouch cancel example to be honest. I can't think of high knockback moves that can be floorhuugged at 60.
As a competitive smash player with many years of experience and grinding under my belt, THANK YOU for this video. My friend and I have so many hours in this game already and we both could tell off the rip something felt off. So many instances of "how did you get out of that combo at that %?" "how did you punish that?!". Thank you for clarifying! haha. Hope the devs fix this soon because this game is sweet.
Very informative! I knew I hated floorhugging since the first beta I played, but I also had no idea it was this strong until I started seeing it in tournaments.
I think the assertion/claim that any move that is beaten by floorhug is just illegal or useless to use is inaccurate/disingenuous. Keep in mind that with recent changes, you have to SSDI down on command/reaction to floorhug, you can't just buffer it. So you can still play neutral and mixups in a way where you can get openings with floorhuggable attacks because you conditioned your opponent to think they don't need to floorhug at that exact moment. This kind of counterplay has existed for years in Melee. I think we're too quick to say a mechanic is bad and chalk it up to "only this can be done about it" or "moves that are beat by it are now illegal". The game isn't even out yet, counterplay takes a long time to develop.
We've been discussing the merits and demerits of floorhug for years, and while I see that it can enable certain moves to be really strong while having balanced use (like jabs), I think the trade-offs are not worth it. no one will ever say that it's intuitive to press down when getting hit to cancel weak knockback or do the same thing with shield and down to tech medium knockback.
Even in melee this is probably the most controversial mechanic
I totally understand the "counterplay takes a long time to develop" argument when it comes to things like character balance, but this is a core mechanic of the game. If I was a new player getting dumpstered by floorhugging, I would be more likely to quit the game than to try and develop counterplay. I feel like it and L Cancelling are the 2 melee mechanics that just don't make sense to put into any other game, the only reason anyone would ever think to put floorhugging in intentionally is because it was in melee
@@williamw8590 it being a "core mechanic of the game" does not make it exempt from the truth that counterplay takes a long time to develop. that concept doesn't only apply to character balance lmfao, it applies to all mechanics in the game. you also saying that the "only reason anyone would ever think to put floorhugging in is because it was in melee" is also completely ignorant lol. respectfully, everything you just said is proving my point - you implying that it being a "core mechanic" makes it exempt from counterplay taking long, and saying that it's only here bc of Melee, just very clearly shows to me you are talking without understanding the nuance of floorhugging and what counterplay DOES and COULD exist.
and that's fine, i'm not judging you for not understanding it yet. but when it comes to fighting games - these games are fucking difficult. and just because as a newer or lower level player you don't understand how certain things work, or those things don't "feel good" to you yet, doesn't mean you should just dismiss it as unintuitive, unnecessary, or straight up a bad mechanic. you gotta put in the work and hours to slowly better understand how things work and see if you can find counterplay. honestly, this applies to to everyone who does not have high level competitive experience in a game where floorhugging exists.
@@Chr1sT0funo one in platform fighter history is okay with getting punished for winning the neutral and getting a hit. This is an objectively bad mechanic.
@@BrooklynSkateUSAno its not. ur allowed to be minus on hit
Honestly as someone coming from rivals 1 with little experience from melee or pm, I feel as if they overcorrected from having too few defensive options to too many. Alot of strong moves already cancel into shield in a short ammount of time, while CC can invalidate some moves at low percents or if the move has a fixed knockback. Personally I would just remove floor hugging and make it impossible to ssdi into a grounded state(or remove ssd :P). I also find crouch canceling a bit annoying but it's manageable if you're mindful.
this is likely why most combo starters send directly upward, it would cancel out the little SSDI teleport distance
This was an issue during the beta weekends but the devs seemed to brush it off. Not surprised it hasn’t changed
Such a good video on helping me understand the main pain point I have had with the game! Keep it up!
i guarantee this mechanic has little to nothing to do with why you're getting stomped
Look. I'm a P+ player who came from ult (I have never played Melee, started P+ about three years ago) where there's little to no CC/floorhugging. I used to feel a similar way about CC which is much stronger in PM. People are making the mistake of thinking CC/floorhugging is some god option that just disables half the moves in the game instead of something you're able to interact with in neutral.
It is not a laundry list of moves you aren't allowed to use if they lose to ASDI down, not at all. What you're not considering is your opponent has an option after they need to throw out from wherever their place is after they take the attack. For example I've seen people regularly using sweetspot Zetter FAir on grounded opponents to counter CC/ASDI down even though it doesn't actually knock them out of CC, but it has enough pushback that it prevents the Zetter from getting hit by nearly every option they can use directly out of CC in the game. So if, say, an Orcane is mashing a dtilt and I hit their CC with a Zetter FAir, I can respond to that and counter their dtilt by jumping over it and dtilting. I just punished them for trying to CC without using a move that directly "beats" it, and they got punished extra hard because they took extra damage from that interaction since you still take damage while CCing. This is just one example of many many interactions in the game, of course the Orcane can do something else and that's where the layers of mixup end up building.
This pushback interaction is extremely relevant because it also rewards using CC offensively. For example if you hard read somebody will use a fadeback aerial on your approach, you can overextend a run past them, crouch directly under them, and get rewarded with a CC grab into a big punish for your commitment. Overly safe aerials are a big problem in plat fighters (Ult especially I know has this issue) and CC helps mitigate that with an interactive mechanic, because its not like running up to someone and crouching without throwing out attacks is safe, it could easily backfire into you getting grabbed or hit with a meteor if your opponent anticipates you're going to run up on them.
Finally there are two big differences in Rivals 2 that make CC weaker than in Melee/PM that aren't mentioned. The first is that there are much more moves that can just beat CC/ASDI down at 0 because in PM/Melee there is a flat 4 frames of hitstun (empty landing lag), but in Rivals it scales with the attack used, meaning stronger attacks will be able to break it more easily. ASDI down also cannot be buffered meaning your opponent has to react, you can abuse this to bait reactions and bad DI out of people.
I completely understand people's frustration because I agree it’s not a super intuitive mechanic to learn. I think having good in-game tutorials in the future would help a ton. But I think its super interesting and fun to play with and around, and I think most people will come around to it with enough time in the game.
You should make a video that shows the counterplay in action because I don't fully understand what you're describing in your comment
Yes please make a video on this!
You are referring a lot to CC but floorhugging is still a god option to do cause you mitigate most moves in any situation.
@@RandomDude647Great video by hyper flame on the subject.
@@rylanlunnon9640 You could have just answered him. The video literally talks about the same counterplays this one does, on top of spacing correctly.
Great vid, these situations are quite literally the only time rivals 2 didnt feel like rivals to me, the uncanny valley of platfighter moments
I like having a defensive option in floor hugging but I do think it needs a nerf to only work at really low percents
it's needs some sort of downside for it's use.
I'd been running into this since the betas and had a hard time placing the issue exactly, feeling like I was getting punished for hitting moves, it was very frustrating, but yeah this is exactly it. Great video, I hope they address this.
I was trying to figure out why I kept getting punished for landing hits. I thought it was just clairens non tipper moves were that bad. Thanks for enlightening me.
This sums up how I used to feel about cc and asdi down in melee but now I disagree after getting more used to it. In theory it vastly limits what openings and punishes you can go for but in practice there's many reasons someone would be hitting any other direction but down in a whole bunch of situations in even just one match. Grabs being the strongest counterplay to it is interesting because otherwise grab whiffs are slow and make most grab attempts very risky but when you can tell someone is looking to floorhug they're usually a lot easier to grab. It doesn't become a solely winning option but rather it shifts the weight of rps interactions such that less safe options become situationally very valuable. Maybe in rivals it could be tweaked like the tech momentum carrying over being fixed, but as a concept it adds more to neutral than what it takes from it.
I like your take on this topic.
What I'm not understanding is, why shouldn't grab be a generally risky option? It tends to lead to some of the highest reward depending on situation (b/f throw at certain percents being free kills if you land them, most throws start combos, chain grabs exist etc.)
It just seems unnecessary to have a mechanic that promotes grab from being "A good but risky option to mix into your offense" to "the only thing you can rely on working until ~50%". Grabs tend to be at their healthiest in fighting games when they're used sparingly, mostly to catch people blocking too much.
@@runeblade6596 from all the tournament gameplay I’ve watched, I barely see FH being used. I just don’t really see it as a huge problem , and if it becomes one, I think the devs would fix it bc they actually came about competitive players
@@Gemini_Hero it's still just as risky to whiff a grab, but the fact that grabs are good makes floor hugging risky too since you're less mobile while fishing for it. So now it loops back to encouraging you to stay mobile to avoid getting grabbed
@@runeblade6596 For fishing for floor hugs in neutral, I think that's a pretty reasonable take.
I think the main thing being called out in the video is being able to floorhug in response to whiffing a move and getting punished, leading to a reversal state even after you made a large error in offense.
That, to me, is less creating interesting counterplay and more arbitrarily limiting gameplay options.
This was an incredibly succinct video. I deliberately avoided watching any videos about Rivals 2 strategies because I wanted to get a vanilla feel for the game so I could compare with context. I have been trying to figure out exactly why it seemed like others were just not getting lambasted as hard as I was, and this is absolutely 90% of the reason. Going back in for a couple matches after this, I can see where this is getting me, which has been helpful. Idk how much I'll enjoy this game with this mechanic, but I'm now at least aware of it.
I was wondering why it looked like I was being punished on hit I just thought the character they were using was crazy good or mine just has really bad frames
All this time, I thought you had to time the shield press to get the floorhug tech roll.
Thank you for validating my opinion. They gotta tone cc and floorhug way down
i thought this was just bugged ccing
but wow seeing how its a different thin
thats interesting
As a RoA1 player, when I first played RoA2, I was wondering why a lot of my combo starters were working despite me hitting the opponent. Transitioning between games was hard, and I think this video highlights the problem well. Thanks :)
The thing is whether intentional or not melee actually had a good balance to crouch cancelling by making it not work after a certain percent. The mechanic is fine when it’s an option vs an all encompassing solution. Also getting punished for a jab when your opponent is at 200% does not feel great.
Indie platfighters will NEVER beat the "Melee clone" allegations I swear.
Rivals of Aether isn't a Melee clone at all. It's a great game and I hope people discovering the series with Rivals 2 will give RoA a try
@@Verdigrior go to a non sweaty game
@@BrownieEXEthen go play Multiversus
And I was wondering why nobody parried in this game, this is *so much better* than that in every way possible, it really belittles every other defensive option out there
yeah call me crazy but being true punished when I successfully land a hit on my opponent is never fun, for any reason
it almost like thats the entire principle of fighting games as a whole: land a hit and get rewarded
this is why i hate both crouch cancelling and floor hugging
In b4 counters exist
@@germangonzalez4347 I mean i also dont like counters conceptually, but those at least can be fun to bait out and get a really strong hit
I can't bait out crouch cancelling to punish them in endlag, you know lol
oh this is the demo felt so weird to me
Fascinating stuff as a casual player! Hope this gets resolved soon :)
The game doesnt have enough aerials or moves that break CC, it just makes it so bad to whiff punish with anything besides grab
After trying the demo, I feel hesitant in getting the game. The SF6 perfectly shows how Floor hugging ruins the conventional rock paper scissors dynamic that I enjoy engaging with.
Great video, I honestly didn't realize just how strong floor hugging was despite doing it all the time. I have definitely felt like in this game playing as kragg for example I need to press the kragg rivals of aether 2 button (Down air) or just grab my opponent. In a game where shield grabbing is also already pretty strong I felt like i would just either fish for grab or dair. Alternatively, my opponent and I can play the fun game where we down tilt each other for 2 years before one of us wins.
ok but sliding across the entire stage is kinda funny looking
When you right you right
I agree. I think for me the most annoying part of FH is that it makes me feel like that even though I won neutral by getting through all the disjoint and zoning to finally get the hit, I'm losing because I didn't use a grab or dair to punish. It's not a fun mechanic that adds to the game but rather it feels like it takes away from making build a bear combos. I'm not sure on how to fix it beyond just get rid of it. It could very well just be a problem of just learning to deal with it if you want to play this game, but I'm not sure what the longevity will be with new players that are not coming from Melee/PM.
You know what would make everyone stop floor hugging?
If it had a chance to trip you every time you did it
I’ve been mostly fine with cc’ing but floor hugging was super annoying to both play with and against. When my opponents cc’d, I could easily counter because they were likely to keep doing it. It adds a layer of mind games and mixups to an already 50/50 heavy game, and felt great to both use and fight against. Floor hugging felt extremely oppressive to fight against, especially using loxodont where my big ass axe has less impact than clairens toothpick
they added CC and FH because a lot of characters would have infinites like doing the first part of lox F-tilt then turn around and do it again
Came back to recomment… stay strong brother, they’re coming after you now. Even Leffen lol.
Tbh, I like my fighting games where if you get hit, you take your friggin’ lumps. Too many fighting games have “stop hitting me” mechanics that shut down offense, promote camping/turtling, and make me genuinely question why their supporters are playing fighting games at all.
The “melee has it” argument doesn’t hold water either, as that game was never designed for competitive play. Just because people are used to something doesn’t mean it’s a good mechanic.
Look at it this way: Fighting games have to prioritize offense. The game ends when one player is hit enough times. Prioritizing defense accomplishes nothing, since defense delays that inevitable end.
play smash 64 then! pretty much every platform fighter has defensive options after getting hit (smash 64 too, but it is very limited)
@@SickGamer45327 never heard that one before, lol. Let me explain that strawman for you… prioritizing offense over defense does not mean “get rid of defensive options”. It means ensuring defensive options bend and conform to offensive play, as opposed to the opposite.
Repeat: There is nothing wrong with defense, it’s part of the attack > defend > grab triad.
I kind of agree. Crouch cancel makes the game fun, but not when it removes 90% of moves in the game.
Whoever liked my comment you're shit at the game. Get good. Every single move that you can CC you can no LONGER cc after a certain percent. It just prevents people from spamming weak attacks at low %.
This makes perfect sense. I always knew that low percent gameplay in rivals 2 felt like a complete mess. I, like many others, though it was CC.
I still think CC should be toned down (you should not be able to CC three strongs IN A ROW imo) but Floor hugging absolutely makes the early percent game a complete mess. Especially with shields as good as they are.
I placed gold and in the little time I played floorhugging wasn't super prevalent. CC was, but it still sounds like something that can be super oppressive once people get good at it. I don't know if I like how strong holding down is in general. It feels stronger than shielding and parrying which is weird for what is essentially the quaternary main defensive option so it's probably only going to get stronger from here. Maybe it's because I come from Ultimate but shield feels very weak in general. If I had to rank it it would be something like: CC/FH > Parry > Spotdodge > Shield. It's not bad per se, just very unintuitive for me.
it’s pretty ironic because in their efforts to make the game more accessible by adding generous buffer systems, they made the game less accessible because it causes tech like floor hugging to be required to know to improve due to how easy it is to pull of with the current system.
this is by far my favorite fighting game ever so far so i have hopes they will find a way to rework it for release
There's no need to rework it. This video was made in bad faith.
@@punkypony5165 Why? Can you explain?
aint no casual gona play this game. I can't see it surviving for a long time tbh
I really hope the devs can find a way to make it balanced some time around launch whether it's a month or in this one day they have to fix it
i agree, its like... why i do attack if I'm going to be punished by starting a combo, something that should be IF IT CONNECTS a good thing.
I really wish they disable that, because if that's the case, all controllers will be technically tied all the time to down, i know it's something that melee and smash mods has but... it's one of the bad stuff that shouldn't be in a fighting game in the first place, in case for rivals, we can manouver to get survivability with some characters without crouching
They need to remove CC and floor hugging all together. It was what made melee feel unbearable from a competitive player perspective and made the game feel one dimensional.
This was actually amazing editing, can't even imagine how long it took to get all of those clips
I think this video hits the nail on the head for why floor hugging is really unfun from the perspective of the attacker, but I also wanna add that I think it's really not that fun for the floorhugger as much as it isn't fun for the floorhuggee.
While getting hit near the ground, there's basically no decision making taking place when deciding to floorhug - low or high percent, it never seems bad to attempt to floorhug a move even if the opponent counters with a spike or throw. To add that input along with the already present mindgames when getting hit (throw tech, DI, SDI) is just cumbersome, especially when the other defensive options I feel have more interactive and fun counterplay for both the attacker and defender by themselves. I don't wanna have to think about tapping down along with every other system that's present in the game at every present moment that I'm around the opponent.
(Also, could definitely be wrong about the things above and please contest or give any other insights you'd like. I'm not an expert here)
Edit: Having heard some more opinions on twitter in the past couple days following this video, I think i can understand why this mechanic exists a little more. I still think most of what I said about floorhug still rings true to me, but I'm gonna file my complaint as a semi skill issue since I think I'm just too used to the way that rivals 1 handles defense and getting hit. Interested to see how the rivals team develops this mechanic
I think this is very true. Any time games require you to just do an input regardless of a situation 'just because its good' always feels bad. I have played melee for a really really really long time, and I am super used to L-Cancelling things so it has never bothered me, but I still think its a pointless mechanic because like you said, its one more thing to do that really has no purpose or thought behind it, its just sheerly an extra input. To summarize; inputs that are not decisions are boring.
I thought floor hugging was the implementation of melee amsah teching.
That's what I was using it for at high percents.
This application looks awful
This game is played on 3 stocks and it's common to live to 150% and beyond. You could say floorhugging is strong or moves are weak, and they would mean the same thing. Combos are a lot more hit-spammy in this game than in Melee, due to a lot of combo moves having less knockback and hitstun, but this results in floorhugging working outside of situations it should work in. Less hitstun means the opponent isn't locked out of as many options, and it also means that if you miss an attack or try to delay your followup in a combo that requires a million hits, the opponent might already be out of hitstun by then. If combo moves are given more hitstun and knockback scaling, long combos wouldn't be as long, you'd at least get more stage control after missing a follow up, and there would be a stronger case for delaying your follow ups to extend combos. Right now, combos actually feel limited in some ways. As for floorhugging, I will say that you can just floorhug back unless they punish with a grab. So either you grab them first, use a multihit or a spike, or use a strong move that knocks down, and if they Amsah tech too far away to punish, take the free stage control. Another counter is to space your attacks so that opponents can't grab you out of a floorhug. This allows you floorhug back without much risk.
“I would also think floorhugging is broken if I didn’t have thousands of hours in this game” lollll
I simply think cc and floor hugging just shouldn’t exist in the place
Isn’t this just melee’s metagame? Floorhugging, or ASDI down for melee, defines entire matchups at early percents, but the top tiers have specific and very powerful tools that they can use to beat it until they’re at too high a percent to do it anymore. I do agree that it’s a silly mechanic though.
Yea its mostly just better in this game.
@@Stinkbug_AbI don’t even think it is better in this game if anything it’s stronger in melee, it’s just that this game is new, so we aren’t good at beating cc yet, and the engine lets you jab and tilt more freely so we see jabs and tilts losing to cc that we wouldn’t in melee
@BatpegBackAgain its for sure a little stronger and easier but you're take is very valid its an easy tech to get a hold of and can feel annoying to new players
I think this really seizes on it for me. It's a lot less about how another game has it and people still play it, and more about whether or not it's actually worth replicating and putting into a completely different game.
Like yeah Melee has it and people play it competitively. Melee also has grabs that miss on the z-axis, L-Cancelling, tap jump forced on, multi-hit moves that never combo, varying jumpsquat frames that make several members of the cast almost unusable, hell some moves like Roy dash attack literally just don't have hitboxes on them at certain frames.
Only an asylum patient would want to recreate Melee perfectly with every mechanic it had intact. It's a very specific game enjoyed by a very specific subset of players, and it's fine staying there. Mechanics need to be ported over on a case by case basis, and with specific purpose. I just don't think Floorhugging survives that analysis personally.
I hadn't seen a biobirb video in a while. Youve really improved at video production since then, this was super well put together
Everyone gets Bowser armor
I don't like either CC or FH, but if they want to keep it, it would be nice to turn them off in the Options menu.
I think this comes from the bigger issue of too much variability when it comes to DI. Like there are moves in this game that if you DI them badly could mean the difference between dying at the ledge at %20 or living to %150
Thank you for articulating my main issue with the game in its current state. I honestly thought it was happening because the moves were very different from rivals 1
People don’t realize how much of a problem this is, and a problem not exclusive to rivals 2, characters live up to stupidly high percents, there is no killing with stray hits, only kill confirms, grabs aren’t as good of a punish option as they are in other plat fighters, and it baffles me that they attempted to nerf this mechanic since the beta but they haven’t been able to balance it, it either needs to be removed or reworked, in melee crouch canceling in itself is a mechanic that single handedly nerfs a majority of the roster, and a big reason why low and mid tiers struggle in general, and top tiers are good because they have ways to invalidate crouch canceling in their kits, I know rivals and melee are very different games, but crouch canceling and itself was a bad mechanic in melee that I wished was removed or reworked, since being able to just invalidate weak moves by just holding down is already stupid enough, and with floor hugging ON TOP of that it becomes exactly what is said in the video, unfun
Geez I had no idea floor hugging was that busted. Really hope they nerf it or do something with it
mmm! reversal central! it's the same thing in melee tbh
It's not the same thing, It does have crouch cancelling as well though. The main difference is this is done in reaction to getting hit, not as a read/safety option before getting hit. It's due to how the engine makes wavedashing/wavelanding easier, the ASDI on hit just makes you cling like a short mostly downward waveland but without the lag of jumpsquat/airdodge landing.
Rivals 1 was neat because it removed some defensive options like shielding and ledgegrabbing, but replaced them with new defensive options.
Rivals 2 added all of those back in, plus more. Even stuff like ledge specials can be considered a defensive option.
There is too much.
I was JUST about to get this game…but that looks insanely unfun
wow, I did NOT know about this.
It looks like the kind of thing that would make me incredibly confused and just not want to play if it kept happening to me.
crouch cancelling also seems a little confusing but what, maybe it's harder to do in the heat of the moment? like you have to just assume that you're 100% getting hit and there are only certain situations it happens in?
but idk, a lot of down tilts pop people up so for you to be able to just "crouch cancel" a whole ass pop up is confusing to me
I'm not super great at fighting games, decent, but nothing too good. Thought I should mention that.
I don't know if they fixed it already, but I hear that the developers are very receptive to criticism, so I think floor hugging will be fixed in the future.
So basically I need to tilt the stick down way more often.
almost af is it was intended to whiff punish with grab. Also you showed a shield grab when you wanted to demonstrate a floorhug grab punish. That was probably a mistake. also comparing it to street fighter is not a good example imo because it is not intended to combo off regular throws there and the game has slower movement and no platforms. There are much more floorhug safe moves when your opponent is on a platform. opinion not really thought out imo.
Bad game design is still bad game design. Whiff punishes can be avoided through wavedashing, jumping or spot dodging. The fact that floorhugging ads another defensive/offensive option makes it harder to punish & breaks the rock paper scissors formula what a fighting game is known for. You are blind af to see that cuz you love the game too much
Critisms are needed to help the game live longer
Floorhuggung has a very "l-cancel" type of feel to me. At high levels of play its non-optional and it creates a near insurmountable gap of skill between those who can and cannot do it.
Crouch canceling is actually a kinda nice mechanic. You trade some health and you have to preempt the opponents move by crouching but in return you can get a giant punish. Thats cool as hell. If floorhugging only worked in situations you could have crouch canceled then it would be fine, but he fact that you can use floorhugging to literally flip a punish situation is actually ridiculous.
my guy u literally just pick a direction with ur control stick. u can beat every option this guy talks about in this video by just grabbing. stop pressing random buttons in neutral and adapt to ur opponent. if they are cc/floor hugging then grab them to get a free punish. i don’t see how this possibly makes a skill gap other than for people who actually suck at fighting games.
@@arabmunny the problem is that pressing random buttons in neutral is SAFE with floorhugging. Getting a whiff punish is actually adapting to your opponent, it's like the exact opposite of just throwing shit out in neutral. I like Crouch canceling, I think it should stay. It's floorhugging that needs to go.
I don't think it's comparable to l-cancelling outside of it being mandatory.
L cancelling opens up more options for everyone and makes the game more fun.
Floorhugging does literally the opposite.
@arabmunny My brother in christ, grab being the only counter is literally the issue lmfao.
The game just boils down to spamming floorhug and grabs at a high level. The issue is floorhugging has no mechanical depth or nuance, you can completely whiff and instead of getting punished for whiffng, you can just floorhug and reset neutral/get advantage for free. If it functioned the way it does in melee it wouldn't be a problem.
@@DaisiesTC u obviously don’t play melee because it does not work like that at all. it’s far more broken. mix up ur timing, use a move that spikes, fucking grab combo, there is plenty counterplay if ur actually good at adapting. u can’t buffer the input, they have to time the floorhug. if u mix ur timing by literally even 2 frames the floorhug doesn’t work. get good, stop spamming punishable moves in neutral. if ur opponent sees u grabbing them constantly to beat their floorhug and they KEEP floor hugging then it’s not high level gameplay. sorry to tell u.
Amazing video, short and succinct and gets to the heart of the problem quickly. Definitely agree that this is an issue, have felt it in my own games, espeically with the teching out of hits. It's extremely frustrating to get a combo opener only to get uno reverse carded.
I enjoy CC being strong to make a percent lead something thats significant so fast characters cant just win neutral with any random move they feel like throwing out. I hate asdi/floorhugging though. Remove that shit.
they could make it so you take double % when floor hugging
You sounds like Core A gaming. but this reminds of the Smash ultimate Steve's PLMG tech where you can cancel the momentum of whatever attack and that can kill people of playing the game
I really hope they do something about this, it is the SINGLE thing that feels outright BAD in this game. I love it but MAN is this annoying 😭😭
Except it doesn't feel bad you're just mad and used to terrible platform fighting games
@@lordmew5 it just feels bad to them, no need to insult them
@@lordmew5I checked your acc and you have a really good rap playlist but bro you gotta chill people just don’t like the mechanic 😭
@@lordmew5 Imagine chilling for an awful game mechanic that doesnt benefit anyone
This is purely anecdotal and self important but floor hugging is the reason I won’t be buying this game.
I would like to play the game on a slightly more than casual level and this mechanic simply doesn’t sound fun to learn or work around. Sure it adds some mechanical depth and it means that in neutral you have to think even one step further but it just… feels really bad.
From a game design perspective it removes a sense of reward from one player to give an (arguably unwarranted) sense of “escape” to another player and to me that’s hard to justify. With the game having so many other defensive/movement options it doesn’t make sense imo
Nobody will do this to you on a lower rank and nobody will really do this to you a lot generally, I was around bottom platinum and people barely did this at all. I think floor hugging should be removed but the video vastly over exaggerated how bad it is in actual gameplay because it's basically having to time a down input in a 1-3 frame window on reaction to getting hit (you cannot buffer it).
@@bumibomber that may be true now but as time goes on the tech itself will become more widely adopted by lower level players. If the tech is powerful and rewarding enough, the only thing gating usage is time
Literally the worst feature melee as to offer, something so broken u cannot play the game if u you don't spam it 24/7
Only truth in this video
floor hugging and CC are both options your opponent can chose if theyre choosing it a lot you need to counter play with grab or a downward facing attack or bait them with a wiff and punish their response or if you actually want to improve at the game practice spacing your attacks so they are safe on both wiff and hit
Okay, but, I don't want to practice all of my moves except for three of them so that they are safe on hit. I want to expect my moves to be safe on hit except for maybe a few really laggy or weak-hitting ones. I don't want to get comboed for hitting my opponent, actually.
@@user-et3xn2jm1u well the games not out yet so maybe they'll change it: or maybe they wont and then you'll have to make a decision about what you want out of life
All of this would be solved if Dan would just add Wectoring into the game.
Thanks so much for making this! I've been trying to articulate why this mechanic feels so awful, and this sums it all up, while teaching me details I had wrong, and showing more insanely broken uses. I can't believe you can use this ON HIT, as if there's any sanity to that design. Anyone saying "BUT YOU CAN DI WRONG" like... ok... but that's just DI being DI. For a mostly free and overwhelmingly powerful option, it's a super tilted risk/reward ratio.
I also loathe that you can basically just hold down for CC and option select. I'll still argue that it's incredibly easy to use with near-0 comitment, and low risk.
If these were niche techs that were sometimes useful, it would be a reward for identifying it in just the right situation. But as is, it's so overwhelming that you HAVE to always take it into account on offense and defense. And it makes so many of the wonderful aspects of the game feel terrible, or outright useless in many situations.
Really hope they do something about this, I trust them to tho. I'm Gon be sad if the game remains unfun because of this and it's a bit scary but it seems unlikely that they'll leave it
I think 40% of my kills in the demo week were hold down control stick spam fors downsmash.
2:39 - that elephant was movin!
Showing Ludwig, when you talk about people who just now heard about the game is crazy, with his Company being the publisher of Rivals 2
he was probably using lud as an example of rivals going mainstream cuz obvi ludwig has a huge audience and brings a lot of new eyes onto rivals
@@Christian6557 Yeah probably, it was just funny to me in the moment