I feel so spoiled with shimano 105 I don't even consider the question of groupsets anymore. It shifts, it's reliable, the spare parts are cheap. But hey more competition coming into the market is always welcome.
I came to the comments to say how satisfied I am with 105 mechanical. It’s just fabulous, and I have a hard time imagining more expensive groups providing enough value to be worth it. As they said, upgrade everything else first. I’ve put way more time and effort into fit and fitness. Happy with that choice.
It's a bit like finding jeans that fit, wear well, and are relatively affordable. If you're going to spend more wisely, it would be on other things, like shoes, shirt, and a tweed jacket, the latter preferably a second-hand find but fits like a glove.
I definitely feel the difference between 105 2x10 (5200?) on my cx bike and ultegra 2x11 (6800) on my road bike. Probably new R7000 105 2x11 is way better. But the older one is not that great in comparison to my not newest ultegra, cheers.
@@j.k.b5014 I Heard that, but never got a chance to test it myself, I guess I did a great deal buying used 2017 canyon endurace with that groupset for 1100euros two years ago
I upgraded my gravel bike from 105 to GRX Di2 for two reasons, both related to reliability: (1) after transporting the bike in a bag (handlebars turned fully sideways) the shifter cable would start to fail (on occasion snowballing to major mechanical issues), and (2) and this is the killer -- the trimming wasn't happening reliably. With the Di2, all I have to worry about is keeping the battery charged. No issues transporting the bike, and I never have to worry about trimming. Bonus: the hydraulic disc brakes are a night-and-day improvement over the cable-operated discs, even with the best-of-class Spyre calipers. I haven't had a single issue with the hydraulic brakes (apart from some squealing during bedding-in, which would apply to cable discs as well).
One of the reasons im part of a few cycling communities. A lot people are forever swapping parts in and out because they either have lots of disposable income, race or have children that race and even if you pick up one piece of a groupset here and there one part/component at a time. you'll eventually have an entire groupset for not a whole lot of money. The downside is it does take a bit of time to get everything you need and the parts received will have some wear and tear but some things can be swapped out for newer like pulley/jockey wheels if youre buying an RD and that pedantic about what youre getting.
Thats easy to answer. Sram was building red 2x11 ergodynamics hoods since 2012, a few years later (think 2015) the same shape was carried over to force and rival. You can fully dissamble everything of their components and you still can buy 13y old spare parts and even upgrade to 2x12 via Ratio Technology. But honestly it isn`t necessary to repurchase anything since nothing brakes (ask your lbs if you don`t believe me). Campagnolo follows a similar strategy. I can`t say much out of own experiences since i`m not a fan of their hoodshape and hadn`t owned a campa groupo over a longer period. Shimano is kinda the opposite. Every single year a rework/update off 80% off their transmission range, almost everything changes and is no longer compatible with previous year components. At least 50% of spare parts are not avaiable/not produced yet or discontinued. Even officai Shimano employes are frustrated, they often spend +10min of searching and then tell you that you have to order a complete new component and upgrade several others or the give you the part number and that you should google it and buy it from the internet "Good luck and bye". So as a resume: It definitely pays of to invest in a solid high-end groupo because you would be able to carry it over from bike to bike over a long period of years. Find a capable and passionate mechanic in you r region and get what he advices.
100% agree. I have Ultegra Di2 12 speed on the "good" bike and after buying an entry level commuter with Shimano Claris, absolutely love the Claris for what it gives for the price
Same for me, one bike with ultegra di2 and one with a half assed Sora with V-brakes. Can switch between them anytime. Added koaxial length adjuster to the Sora's front mech's cable for easy trimming. And with 3x9 11-34 in the back it easily has the superior gearing range
You guys should check out the new LTWOO ERX electronic groupset! Also, I have 2 bikes, 1 steel commuter and 1 weekend bike (Scott Addict). Both have Tiagra, one rim brake and one hydraulic disc, and both work flawlessly. Considering upgrading the weekend bike to Sram Force down the road, but have 0 rush to do it cuz the groupset really isn't giving me any issues.
The choice is essentially: 1. Road bike with super techy top end fancy groupset - 400g weight savings, some convenience in shifting (offset by battery issues and replacement/fixing of components) Or 2. Road bike with pretty good for what it cost you groupset *and another pretty good bike of your choice!* I mean, 'entry level' carbon frames are around £2,000 for road bikes, but you could (and would probably be a better use of the money) get a totally different kind of bike. Get a gravel bike for touring, get a mountain bike and try some trails. I think it's impossible to justify spending 2700 quid on a groupset unless the money was of no consequence to you anyway - i.e. you're a millionaire.
A wise man with a glistening dome once told me, "This is like the most accurate, possible way that you could actually compare the weight of these two groupsets." No greater truth has ever been spoken. Great video boys!!
It's the only accurate way to do it. There are a lot of comparisons out there that weigh each component against its counterpart separately, but then fail to account for the mech groupset's cables and the electric groupset's batteries. Weighing them while installed on the bike makes the most sense.
Great video guys, very interesting. Surprised how good the £300 is. The Red is silly expensive and so are the spare parts. Plus, a bike needs an app as much as my washing machine does! Just ridiculous. P.S. Really like the new Podcast, look forward to the next episode 🙂
Have to say, I'm more than happy with 105 mechanical. I have 2nd hand mechanical Dura Ace on one of my bikes but I can't really tell the difference in shift quality. Lower weight is an advantage though but I could lose 500g fairly easily and save a whole chunk of change.
Great content! IMO the thing that makes the most difference in weight between most groupsets are the cranks & the cassette (makes sense as they have the biggest mass). In this comparison I'd bet at least 80% of the weight difference comes from the cranks alone. Looking forward if and when you guys get a chance to test the new electric l-twoo groupset. Keep it up!
So I ride 11 speed Ultegra. I have a Di2 and a mechanical group both with rim brakes and both with SRAM cranks. Though I love the convenience of Di2, synchro, trimming, flawless performance, and D-Fly integration with my Garmin head unit, there is still something so rewarding about throwing those mech shifters and feeling the response from hands to legs. Trimming is frustrating, after experiencing the electronic group. But for $2500, I could build several “new to me” whips from used/Chinese components. Can’t wait to hear about LTWOO electronic! Keep up the great content! ❤
Recently got Rival AXS XPLR on a gravel bike. Was honking out the box but discovered the hanger was bent so after that was sorted, boom! Love it. I don't like the hoods a whole lot and I really hate that my fingers get trapped behind the shifter paddles when engaging the brakes which could be dangerous when braking on the hoods.
What a great video, and something people should keep in mind in general when it comes to bike parts. Much rather use money for a better frame and a bike fitter, then upgrade if necessary later. Old MTB XC rider here, only recently getting back in the saddle after 20 years. At the time, as today, Shimano XTR was top of the line, and obviously had that on my racing bikes. But my 'workhorse', a Specialized put together by bits and bobs and a full midrange Shimano LX... it rode so well. Sure, the shifting was slightly less smooth, but even then it was obvious that the top range is a 'want to have', not a 'need to have'. LX covered everything one would want, sans the extortionist price tag. The entire weight-saving game gets even funnier when one could easily lose a pound or three of body weight, but pays for the top range to save weight on the bike. Currently having part XT group, works well, almost at XTR level, so happy with that too, and with not having to shovel amounts of money at something that would be nice to have, but isn't necessary at all.
I never see myself buying a groupset for 3K. I ran a claris in my sportifs and it was fine. I mean my money was spent on quality chains cassettes cables and houseing. It's amazing how top quality cables and houseing can easily improve a rear mechs action. Great video though. 👍🇮🇪
I started off on with a Tourney on my cheap hybrid then the next bike (VVT) I had Altus and now the Scott 950 I've got has Deore XT and the difference between the three really is night and day. My Tourney equipped bike was brand new and was the rear derailleur and whole drive chain after a while was just noisey and crunchy. The Altus I left in Ireland. My Scott I purchased used some years back and the drive train is as smooth and responsive as the day I bought it and it's 10 years old now. Goes up and down the cassette like silk all day long.
That groupset is over 3x the cost of my bike. Ill upgrade to Rival one day but for now I'm just happy my bike works reliably. On the topic of spares, I'm pretty sure that for Red you cant get stand alone chain rings and will need a new crank. This is even more costly if you have a integrated power meter.
It'd be cool to see how well certain parts of each groupset mix and match like if an 11spd ltwoo shifter would work with an 11spd Shimano derailleur or something, something that could save money if you break a shifter or something if the sort
TraceVelo has done some testing on this and Sensah and Ltwoo use the same pull ratios I think as shimano so they are interchangeable within 10,11,12 speed variants (but worth looking at those vids)
Everything I owned for years was Shimano, high end to low. 3 year's ago I went gravel with a Force 1x 10-50 and now everything is SRAM electronic except for my 09 Madone triple. Red etap road, force 1x gravel, 1x mountain with electronic dropper, wife's 2x gravel. Never look back.
I have had SRAM AXS Force on my 2020 Giant Defy Advanced Pro and have enjoyed electronic shifting ever since. I do have mechanical shifting bikes but I ride the AXS Force bike 98% of the time.
A groupset can be mechanical but it shouldn't cost more than £500-700. It must have a nice crank and rear derailleur. The rest is so small in surface area that you don't even notice when looking at the bike. I love the Dura Ace 9100 and 9200 black design. If Ultegra and SRAM force was blacked out would be mint.
I watched your Sensah Empire Pro 2x12 video. Put Ultegra Rim brake calipers and Crankset in the mix. 12 gear snap in and out just freaking perfectly. Voilá! Works like a charm thanks for the content - and yes the humour.
I’ve got two high end road bikes, one with Ultegra 11-speed di2, the other with the mechanical equivalent-I’ve never ever EVER been able to justify the price difference.
I ride DI2 DA 9150 (rim brake) because it was on my second hand bike (I didn't mind though:)), before that I rode DA 9100 mechanical (rim brake). Have to say that the mechanical shifting was nicer to shift imo, more clear and also beng on. One adjusted not one mis hit and you hardly have to re-adjust ever. Still, very happy with DI2, always working and light.
I've ridden whatever the latest Ultegra Di2 is called, and I vastly prefer my mechanical Dura Ace 9000. I'd be interested in trying out 9150 - on the one hand, my 9000 is _so_ much better than it's contemporary Ultegra equivalent that it's hard to imagine Dura Ace Di2 beating Ultegra Di2 by quite the same margin, but then again maybe it does, and a rim brake version is the _only_ way I could ever be persuaded to go electronic shifting at all, period.
Ride the mechanical Ultegra now, but waiting on my new Wilier with electronic Ultegra. Few more weeks to go and really anxious to find out the difference.
I agree with Jimmy. I had mechanically, brought a new road bike with SRAM Force, then hated my commuting bike, so ended up buying a new commuting as well with SRAM Rival. I'm happy, wife not so.
Rival AXS, right now, is the groupset to beat. If you're doing road or gravel or some hybrid of both, it is perfect median. The reason people loved 105 was because it gave you the previous generation of Dura-Ace functionality at a discount and unlike Tiagra or Sora you weren't giving up reliability to achieve the price. In fact most people felt 105 was the most reliable groupset. The big contender is going to be the L-TWOO electric for $800, this versus Rival would be a very interesting match-up.
I have two bikes. Both have SRAM fitted. Force on one and i absolutely love it. The other has Axis. Hydraulic disc brakes on both. The difference is Axis is cable shifting. I notice the dlight delay, but it's not going to stop me from riding. The difference in price of the two bikes: 4K USD. There's more to the story, but i ride both bikes and they both are great.
i mean if money isn't an issue I'd want dura-ace. If I have to pay for it I would want another Ultegra groupset, mechanical though. If I'm going electronic shifting I want SRAM
I am on Sram Rival eTap AXS and i think it's possibly the best way to get into electronic shifting. Nice ergonomics, affordable and it just works. I have only been cycling for a year and my Triban RC500 was good, sure, but even then i wanted to see what the fuss about electronic shifting was. Yeah, never going back to mechanical.
Currently riding DA7900, Red 10sp mechanical, and GRX 800 mechanical. The DA7900 is incredible if set up properly, and the GRX is not far behind at all. The Red is so so so so light, but the shifter ergonomics is lacking as with newer incarnations.
My 11s 105 upgrade from 9s Sora was well worth the £300...shifting is way slicker...I'll never go beyond this setup so that's that... (and I'm actively buying up these supposedly "obsolete" bits cos aged 55 I don't know how many good road years I have left in me lol....if anything gets an upgrade it's the E-MTB....
I currently have 3 road bikes and 2 gravel bikes in my stable, and on my road bikes I'm running Shimano 105 2x11S hydraulic and 105 2x11S mechanical as well as Sensah Empire 2x11S, while on my gravel bikes Sensah 1x11S SRX and and SRAM NX 1x11S.
If L-Twoo would make their own high quality crank's to match the rest of the group set they'd be there totally I'd have no issues putting them on my bike.
The ZRACE RX crankset is quite good and looks quite okay :) significantly better than the senicx one. The ZRACE is like a Rotor crankset with sram 3-bolt mount and dub spindle
They don't need to, there are so many companies making awesome cranks, like Cybrei, Elilee, Racework, etc. I personally wouldn't buy aluminium cranks for a performance oriented bike anymore.
Sram Rival/Apex tbh. I've Rival 1x on my Planet X Ti bike. It's nice and from demo bikes I tried the only way to notice a difference is when you get to the top end and end up with electronic.
I to have this exact same bike the RC in DSM colourway but I opted for the ultegra R8000 mechanical instead of the Di2 and it rides like a dream the bike is so fast and the R8000 shifts so well
Nice. Also I should point out that there are better looking and lighter Chinese cranksets out there for a similar price. There's even the new Raceworks carbon crankset - light, under 150 quid and bears more than a passing resemblance to the SAM XXI crankset. Check it out chaps.
Ive got a ultegra and a tiagra bike at home and the difference is actually in the ratios mostly... I much prefer the narrower ratios on my race bike but my tiagra gravel/do it all just handles with its much wider ratios.
I have a friction bar end shifter and a 1x 11 speed frankenstein drivetrain. Its robuust its accurate and its compatibel with everything. So for me never expensive shizzle on my bike.
Sram Rival Etap! Best bang for your buck! Still expensive but there are deals about. Did have a Force equipped bike (Etap) but quite happy with my Rival Etap now ( it has a Force chainset and cassette though!)
I would much rather have the LTwoo groupset and spend the difference on some really nice wheels. I would get so much more value out of that, I think. I'm currently running Ultegra 6800, which as far as I'm concerned, is sublime. It just works perfectly 99.9% of the time. I have a 105 5700 which just seems to take much more effort to shift
Great video, and great the bikes are completely the same. WOULD LOVE a video comparing the addict and foil, where the rest of the components are the same like in this video. Would be great with a loop/ test route with both a flat section and a steep hill, ridden by both of you with CONSTANT power. A real aero bike vs lightweight bike. If the time allows it, it would be fun to have two wheelsets, one lightweight and one aero. So two test runs for each bike, one with each wheelset tested by both of you at the same day preferably
Have you tested a Sensah groupset? I have 8 speed Empire on one of my bikes. 9-speed Sora, Tiagra 5703, and 105 5600 on my other bikes. I typically do crazy things like my 105 5600 shifters with a Deore derailleur and 9 (11-34) or 10-speed (11-42) cassette on an older steel frame and 40c tires.. Yes, I'm using inline barrel adjusters ($5) to compensate for the different pull ratio. I haven't decided that I need a $45 TanPan...
I don't know if I'm just lucky with my bikes and setups but with the latest shimano mechanical groups, the chain doesn't begin rubbing the FD cage until I'm on 2nd from the biggest gear on the cassette (2nd smallest cog). At which point I jump to the bigger front chainring anyway. So I never really have to trim!
I have a Giant TCR Once team replica bought new in 2004 with campag Record groupset. Never have a problem shifting etc. Daren't try a modern bike as in 2004 it cost me £4500, equivalent would probably be £10000!
I ride Ultegra Di2 12 speed on my SystemSix, and have just bought 105 Di2 12 speed to fit to my SuperSix evo. With 105 Di2 now available at £1300 ish, this is probably the effective cost point that Jimmi is looking for.
Guess the question is would it last? And further to that how would it compare to say Tiagra long term? Which I have on my Gravel bike and seems to be fairly durable, plus cheap easy to get parts. It was a upgrade to get hydraulic brakes on the gravel bike as though the bike and shifting was fine cable disks just didn’t cut it, plus they kept getting trashed by mud in the calliper!
My story: Early 90s Exage 7-spd (triple) - Tiagra 4400 (triple) - Ultegra 6700 - Ultegra 6800 - 105 R7000. Liked them all and I kinda wanna know Chorus, to compare. On my latest frame I've actually gone back to 6700 and swapped chainrings for a sub compact, 30-28 climbs well! Me spinning out a 46-11? downhill maybe, I don't race. I just
Great groupset video between significant price points gents. During the covid pandemic, I cashed in an isa and went all in with a summer bike sworks tarmac sl7 with full red and an atheos custom build as a winter bike. This has full rival on it. I'd choose rival over red, every time gents. The Chinese groupset V sram rival ( without power meter) for around £1200? Ish as a groupset test, would make a very canny video 📹
It would be interesting if you swapped out the cheap chainset for a Rotor, both for weight and performance. It would also look better. The electronic LTwoo would be a better comparison.
Love my SRAM Force, but like my GRX too. Agree with Jimmi that electronic is lovely, but mechanical is fine. That said, I really like the extra bits that come with SRAM. Real question is, would you choose SRAM Rival AXS over the L Twoo?
what about the brakes. they´re hydraulic right? with chep ones they often rub after taking the wheels out or bleeding, etc. changing anything can lead to problems if the pistons don´t move back anymore after a while
To be fair, reliability and longevity is probably where the actual difference is. I'm pretty sure it's not that hard to make new cheap groupset to work really well just after it has been tuned in. I wouldn't personally get something expensive though, I have always had low to mid tier shimano. Though I'm now planning on getting gravel bike with shimano grx. I don't usually care what I get, but I really want hyraulic brakes this time. Kinda torn between Cube nuroad EX and Road. I'm intrigued about EX with it's 1x speed design, but I know I'm going to go mostly on road and it seem like 2x speed is bit better for that. And I'm just used to it. Overall, for me gravel bike is do it all bike, mostly for road, but I want to be able to go off road, or on rough roads without worry. I think 1x is really for mtb, or if you actually use gravel to race in forests and rough terrain quite seriously. That said, idk why you wouldn't get mtb in that case.
I currently have a cheap bike with Tourney with their STI shifters. I priced out 105 r7000 for $360. I was going to make that my next upgrade. Would you still recommend waiting until last to upgrade the groupset?
My bike with full Ultegra hydraulic cost less than half the Sram red group set. For value and functionality that's got to be up there. Over 10,000km in and zero problems.
I feel so spoiled with shimano 105 I don't even consider the question of groupsets anymore. It shifts, it's reliable, the spare parts are cheap. But hey more competition coming into the market is always welcome.
I came to the comments to say how satisfied I am with 105 mechanical. It’s just fabulous, and I have a hard time imagining more expensive groups providing enough value to be worth it.
As they said, upgrade everything else first. I’ve put way more time and effort into fit and fitness. Happy with that choice.
It's a bit like finding jeans that fit, wear well, and are relatively affordable. If you're going to spend more wisely, it would be on other things, like shoes, shirt, and a tweed jacket, the latter preferably a second-hand find but fits like a glove.
I definitely feel the difference between 105 2x10 (5200?) on my cx bike and ultegra 2x11 (6800) on my road bike. Probably new R7000 105 2x11 is way better. But the older one is not that great in comparison to my not newest ultegra, cheers.
Ultegra 6800 is the best mech group set despite r9000. The newer Ultegra Rd has terrible cable pull and the whole group set isn't even lighter!
@@j.k.b5014 I Heard that, but never got a chance to test it myself, I guess I did a great deal buying used 2017 canyon endurace with that groupset for 1100euros two years ago
This is _exactly_ what I was hoping would be the outcome. I'd be very happy to save that "extra" $2700. Thanks so much guys.
Imagine what else you can buy with that spare 2.7k
@@DefaultName-ms2bb 👆 exactly!
@@DefaultName-ms2bbi saw a ferrari on ebay for 1.9k
But it made sense cuz it had 15 miles
I love 105. I’ve used versions of that groupset on several bikes now for about 20 years. Its good value and it works really well.
105 gang!
It was good value till i became electronic
I upgraded my gravel bike from 105 to GRX Di2 for two reasons, both related to reliability: (1) after transporting the bike in a bag (handlebars turned fully sideways) the shifter cable would start to fail (on occasion snowballing to major mechanical issues), and (2) and this is the killer -- the trimming wasn't happening reliably. With the Di2, all I have to worry about is keeping the battery charged. No issues transporting the bike, and I never have to worry about trimming. Bonus: the hydraulic disc brakes are a night-and-day improvement over the cable-operated discs, even with the best-of-class Spyre calipers. I haven't had a single issue with the hydraulic brakes (apart from some squealing during bedding-in, which would apply to cable discs as well).
I would’nt buy a whole top end groupset, but some of the tests need to be done over a longer period of time e.g reliability of components.
One of the reasons im part of a few cycling communities. A lot people are forever swapping parts in and out because they either have lots of disposable income, race or have children that race and even if you pick up one piece of a groupset here and there one part/component at a time. you'll eventually have an entire groupset for not a whole lot of money. The downside is it does take a bit of time to get everything you need and the parts received will have some wear and tear but some things can be swapped out for newer like pulley/jockey wheels if youre buying an RD and that pedantic about what youre getting.
Thats easy to answer. Sram was building red 2x11 ergodynamics hoods since 2012, a few years later (think 2015) the same shape was carried over to force and rival. You can fully dissamble everything of their components and you still can buy 13y old spare parts and even upgrade to 2x12 via Ratio Technology. But honestly it isn`t necessary to repurchase anything since nothing brakes (ask your lbs if you don`t believe me).
Campagnolo follows a similar strategy. I can`t say much out of own experiences since i`m not a fan of their hoodshape and hadn`t owned a campa groupo over a longer period.
Shimano is kinda the opposite. Every single year a rework/update off 80% off their transmission range, almost everything changes and is no longer compatible with previous year components. At least 50% of spare parts are not avaiable/not produced yet or discontinued. Even officai Shimano employes are frustrated, they often spend +10min of searching and then tell you that you have to order a complete new component and upgrade several others or the give you the part number and that you should google it and buy it from the internet "Good luck and bye".
So as a resume: It definitely pays of to invest in a solid high-end groupo because you would be able to carry it over from bike to bike over a long period of years. Find a capable and passionate mechanic in you r region and get what he advices.
Your wish is my command 😂 Literally just editing my next video, I've put 1200 miles into this groupo, so stay tuned for that next week!
This channel just keeps getting better ❤
100% agree. I have Ultegra Di2 12 speed on the "good" bike and after buying an entry level commuter with Shimano Claris, absolutely love the Claris for what it gives for the price
Same for me, one bike with ultegra di2 and one with a half assed Sora with V-brakes. Can switch between them anytime. Added koaxial length adjuster to the Sora's front mech's cable for easy trimming. And with 3x9 11-34 in the back it easily has the superior gearing range
You want "Something in the middle"? Try the LTwoo fully electric setup maybe?
This is the best test ever. I sooo hope more of these china groupsets are successful
You guys should check out the new LTWOO ERX electronic groupset!
Also, I have 2 bikes, 1 steel commuter and 1 weekend bike (Scott Addict). Both have Tiagra, one rim brake and one hydraulic disc, and both work flawlessly. Considering upgrading the weekend bike to Sram Force down the road, but have 0 rush to do it cuz the groupset really isn't giving me any issues.
Agreed! I just put this too but my comment was deleted ? 🤷♂️
@@Miles_and_Motions probably just a UA-cam bug, I’ve had comments suddenly disappear too sometimes!
Jimmie's take on electric gears is exactly what happened to me after my first electronic groupset.
Yep me to
The choice is essentially: 1. Road bike with super techy top end fancy groupset - 400g weight savings, some convenience in shifting (offset by battery issues and replacement/fixing of components)
Or 2. Road bike with pretty good for what it cost you groupset *and another pretty good bike of your choice!* I mean, 'entry level' carbon frames are around £2,000 for road bikes, but you could (and would probably be a better use of the money) get a totally different kind of bike. Get a gravel bike for touring, get a mountain bike and try some trails.
I think it's impossible to justify spending 2700 quid on a groupset unless the money was of no consequence to you anyway - i.e. you're a millionaire.
A wise man with a glistening dome once told me, "This is like the most accurate, possible way that you could actually compare the weight of these two groupsets." No greater truth has ever been spoken. Great video boys!!
It's the only accurate way to do it. There are a lot of comparisons out there that weigh each component against its counterpart separately, but then fail to account for the mech groupset's cables and the electric groupset's batteries. Weighing them while installed on the bike makes the most sense.
Great video guys, very interesting. Surprised how good the £300 is. The Red is silly expensive and so are the spare parts. Plus, a bike needs an app as much as my washing machine does! Just ridiculous.
P.S. Really like the new Podcast, look forward to the next episode 🙂
You don't have to use the app. The app just allows you to make changes.
@@DaveCM On the washing machine or on the bike? That's precisely his point.
@Stephen Saines I don't know about his washing machine. But, SRAM doesn't have to have the app to operate. It is nice to use though.
Have to say, I'm more than happy with 105 mechanical. I have 2nd hand mechanical Dura Ace on one of my bikes but I can't really tell the difference in shift quality. Lower weight is an advantage though but I could lose 500g fairly easily and save a whole chunk of change.
Great content! IMO the thing that makes the most difference in weight between most groupsets are the cranks & the cassette (makes sense as they have the biggest mass). In this comparison I'd bet at least 80% of the weight difference comes from the cranks alone. Looking forward if and when you guys get a chance to test the new electric l-twoo groupset. Keep it up!
So I ride 11 speed Ultegra. I have a Di2 and a mechanical group both with rim brakes and both with SRAM cranks. Though I love the convenience of Di2, synchro, trimming, flawless performance, and D-Fly integration with my Garmin head unit, there is still something so rewarding about throwing those mech shifters and feeling the response from hands to legs. Trimming is frustrating, after experiencing the electronic group. But for $2500, I could build several “new to me” whips from used/Chinese components. Can’t wait to hear about LTWOO electronic! Keep up the great content! ❤
Recently got Rival AXS XPLR on a gravel bike. Was honking out the box but discovered the hanger was bent so after that was sorted, boom! Love it. I don't like the hoods a whole lot and I really hate that my fingers get trapped behind the shifter paddles when engaging the brakes which could be dangerous when braking on the hoods.
Where you would see a difference in braking performance is if you compared the L-twoo and any Sram to new Ultegra or Dura Ace 🙂
What a great video, and something people should keep in mind in general when it comes to bike parts. Much rather use money for a better frame and a bike fitter, then upgrade if necessary later.
Old MTB XC rider here, only recently getting back in the saddle after 20 years. At the time, as today, Shimano XTR was top of the line, and obviously had that on my racing bikes. But my 'workhorse', a Specialized put together by bits and bobs and a full midrange Shimano LX... it rode so well. Sure, the shifting was slightly less smooth, but even then it was obvious that the top range is a 'want to have', not a 'need to have'. LX covered everything one would want, sans the extortionist price tag.
The entire weight-saving game gets even funnier when one could easily lose a pound or three of body weight, but pays for the top range to save weight on the bike. Currently having part XT group, works well, almost at XTR level, so happy with that too, and with not having to shovel amounts of money at something that would be nice to have, but isn't necessary at all.
Great video! I’m riding SRAM Rival in a 1X setup on my Argon 18 Dark Matter gravel bike. Love it!
ltwoo erx should be out now and it would be a good comparison against the sram red too
Gc performance has just done a video on the erx groupset
@@martinfenna185 Waiting for the real world test.
@@martinfenna185 yup, waiting for his build video =)
I never see myself buying a groupset for 3K. I ran a claris in my sportifs and it was fine. I mean my money was spent on quality chains cassettes cables and houseing. It's amazing how top quality cables and houseing can easily improve a rear mechs action. Great video though. 👍🇮🇪
Great video like always
I started off on with a Tourney on my cheap hybrid then the next bike (VVT) I had Altus and now the Scott 950 I've got has Deore XT and the difference between the three really is night and day. My Tourney equipped bike was brand new and was the rear derailleur and whole drive chain after a while was just noisey and crunchy. The Altus I left in Ireland. My Scott I purchased used some years back and the drive train is as smooth and responsive as the day I bought it and it's 10 years old now. Goes up and down the cassette like silk all day long.
Agree with electronic shifting. Have Shimano Ulterga on my Wilier. I enjoy it.
That groupset is over 3x the cost of my bike. Ill upgrade to Rival one day but for now I'm just happy my bike works reliably. On the topic of spares, I'm pretty sure that for Red you cant get stand alone chain rings and will need a new crank. This is even more costly if you have a integrated power meter.
It'd be cool to see how well certain parts of each groupset mix and match like if an 11spd ltwoo shifter would work with an 11spd Shimano derailleur or something, something that could save money if you break a shifter or something if the sort
TraceVelo has done some testing on this and Sensah and Ltwoo use the same pull ratios I think as shimano so they are interchangeable within 10,11,12 speed variants (but worth looking at those vids)
@@bengarside79 Thanks for the rec, I'll definitely check it out
@@Dubsys ua-cam.com/video/KbZevqq6U7Q/v-deo.html
Awesome video and performance for £300 pounds,the Senicx crankset actually looks pretty good.💯👌🏻
Everything I owned for years was Shimano, high end to low. 3 year's ago I went gravel with a Force 1x 10-50 and now everything is SRAM electronic except for my 09 Madone triple. Red etap road, force 1x gravel, 1x mountain with electronic dropper, wife's 2x gravel. Never look back.
I have had SRAM AXS Force on my 2020 Giant Defy Advanced Pro and have enjoyed electronic shifting ever since. I do have mechanical shifting bikes but I ride the AXS Force bike 98% of the time.
My Huret Challenger from the early ‘80’s does the job just fine for me.
A groupset can be mechanical but it shouldn't cost more than £500-700. It must have a nice crank and rear derailleur. The rest is so small in surface area that you don't even notice when looking at the bike. I love the Dura Ace 9100 and 9200 black design. If Ultegra and SRAM force was blacked out would be mint.
I hope you can get hold of their electronic groupset too.
I watched your Sensah Empire Pro 2x12 video. Put Ultegra Rim brake calipers and Crankset in the mix. 12 gear snap in and out just freaking perfectly. Voilá! Works like a charm thanks for the content - and yes the humour.
this test is an example for gcn, bikeradar ect....thx for this inside
Great video glad i found this channel!
I’ve got two high end road bikes, one with Ultegra 11-speed di2, the other with the mechanical equivalent-I’ve never ever EVER been able to justify the price difference.
Love it, please try and get a hold of the Ltwoo erx groupset next!
I ride DI2 DA 9150 (rim brake) because it was on my second hand bike (I didn't mind though:)), before that I rode DA 9100 mechanical (rim brake).
Have to say that the mechanical shifting was nicer to shift imo, more clear and also beng on. One adjusted not one mis hit and you hardly have to re-adjust ever. Still, very happy with DI2, always working and light.
I've ridden whatever the latest Ultegra Di2 is called, and I vastly prefer my mechanical Dura Ace 9000. I'd be interested in trying out 9150 - on the one hand, my 9000 is _so_ much better than it's contemporary Ultegra equivalent that it's hard to imagine Dura Ace Di2 beating Ultegra Di2 by quite the same margin, but then again maybe it does, and a rim brake version is the _only_ way I could ever be persuaded to go electronic shifting at all, period.
Yep, I put Rival Etap on all my bikes now. Most of the benefits of your Red Etap, but less than half the price and only maybe 400g heavier.
Great test guys, now we need an update with the new electronic ltwoo groupset!
Ride the mechanical Ultegra now, but waiting on my new Wilier with electronic Ultegra. Few more weeks to go and really anxious to find out the difference.
Excellent work chaps 👌🏾
Campagnolo super record has left the chat 👀👀
0:07 First there was Pump Action Francis - now there's Nonchalant Inspection Jimmi! 🔍
I agree with Jimmy. I had mechanically, brought a new road bike with SRAM Force, then hated my commuting bike, so ended up buying a new commuting as well with SRAM Rival. I'm happy, wife not so.
Rival AXS, right now, is the groupset to beat. If you're doing road or gravel or some hybrid of both, it is perfect median. The reason people loved 105 was because it gave you the previous generation of Dura-Ace functionality at a discount and unlike Tiagra or Sora you weren't giving up reliability to achieve the price. In fact most people felt 105 was the most reliable groupset. The big contender is going to be the L-TWOO electric for $800, this versus Rival would be a very interesting match-up.
I have two bikes. Both have SRAM fitted. Force on one and i absolutely love it. The other has Axis. Hydraulic disc brakes on both. The difference is Axis is cable shifting. I notice the dlight delay, but it's not going to stop me from riding. The difference in price of the two bikes: 4K USD. There's more to the story, but i ride both bikes and they both are great.
i mean if money isn't an issue I'd want dura-ace. If I have to pay for it I would want another Ultegra groupset, mechanical though. If I'm going electronic shifting I want SRAM
@ 8:55 Campagnolo Chorus rim brake.
I am on Sram Rival eTap AXS and i think it's possibly the best way to get into electronic shifting. Nice ergonomics, affordable and it just works. I have only been cycling for a year and my Triban RC500 was good, sure, but even then i wanted to see what the fuss about electronic shifting was. Yeah, never going back to mechanical.
Currently riding DA7900, Red 10sp mechanical, and GRX 800 mechanical. The DA7900 is incredible if set up properly, and the GRX is not far behind at all. The Red is so so so so light, but the shifter ergonomics is lacking as with newer incarnations.
My 11s 105 upgrade from 9s Sora was well worth the £300...shifting is way slicker...I'll never go beyond this setup so that's that... (and I'm actively buying up these supposedly "obsolete" bits cos aged 55 I don't know how many good road years I have left in me lol....if anything gets an upgrade it's the E-MTB....
I currently have 3 road bikes and 2 gravel bikes in my stable, and on my road bikes I'm running Shimano 105 2x11S hydraulic and 105 2x11S mechanical as well as Sensah Empire 2x11S, while on my gravel bikes Sensah 1x11S SRX and and SRAM NX 1x11S.
If L-Twoo would make their own high quality crank's to match the rest of the group set they'd be there totally I'd have no issues putting them on my bike.
Seems absolutely insane that they don’t make a crankset.
The ZRACE RX crankset is quite good and looks quite okay :) significantly better than the senicx one. The ZRACE is like a Rotor crankset with sram 3-bolt mount and dub spindle
They don't need to, there are so many companies making awesome cranks, like Cybrei, Elilee, Racework, etc. I personally wouldn't buy aluminium cranks for a performance oriented bike anymore.
Get a raceworks carbon ceankset with it, ybn chain and a sroad slr cassette..and you are in the ballpark regarding the weight, compared to sram red.
I'd love to see you test the Ltwoo electronic groupset vs 105 mechanical vs 105 Di2
Sram Rival/Apex tbh. I've Rival 1x on my Planet X Ti bike. It's nice and from demo bikes I tried the only way to notice a difference is when you get to the top end and end up with electronic.
you should make a video about the new ltwoo wireless groupset!!
I to have this exact same bike the RC in DSM colourway but I opted for the ultegra R8000 mechanical instead of the Di2 and it rides like a dream the bike is so fast and the R8000 shifts so well
Hope you'll get the $800 L-twoo eRx groupset to repeat your tests soon!
Nice. Also I should point out that there are better looking and lighter Chinese cranksets out there for a similar price. There's even the new Raceworks carbon crankset - light, under 150 quid and bears more than a passing resemblance to the SAM XXI crankset. Check it out chaps.
Love my Red on my F8 Dogma, love my Force on my 3T gravel/Road Just ordered Force upgrade for my 30 year old Merckx Max😉
Ive got a ultegra and a tiagra bike at home and the difference is actually in the ratios mostly... I much prefer the narrower ratios on my race bike but my tiagra gravel/do it all just handles with its much wider ratios.
I have a friction bar end shifter and a 1x 11 speed frankenstein drivetrain. Its robuust its accurate and its compatibel with everything. So for me never expensive shizzle on my bike.
Sram Rival Etap!
Best bang for your buck!
Still expensive but there are deals about.
Did have a Force equipped bike (Etap) but quite happy with my Rival Etap now ( it has a Force chainset and cassette though!)
I would much rather have the LTwoo groupset and spend the difference on some really nice wheels. I would get so much more value out of that, I think.
I'm currently running Ultegra 6800, which as far as I'm concerned, is sublime. It just works perfectly 99.9% of the time. I have a 105 5700 which just seems to take much more effort to shift
Sounds right to me, every word.
Group set is the last place to spend money. Well said
I'm waiting for your review of aliexpress's electronic gruopset, wonder if that closes gap even more
Great video, and great the bikes are completely the same. WOULD LOVE a video comparing the addict and foil, where the rest of the components are the same like in this video. Would be great with a loop/ test route with both a flat section and a steep hill, ridden by both of you with CONSTANT power.
A real aero bike vs lightweight bike. If the time allows it, it would be fun to have two wheelsets, one lightweight and one aero. So two test runs for each bike, one with each wheelset tested by both of you at the same day preferably
are you spying on our planning meetings? ;)
Have you tested a Sensah groupset? I have 8 speed Empire on one of my bikes. 9-speed Sora, Tiagra 5703, and 105 5600 on my other bikes. I typically do crazy things like my 105 5600 shifters with a Deore derailleur and 9 (11-34) or 10-speed (11-42) cassette on an older steel frame and 40c tires.. Yes, I'm using inline barrel adjusters ($5) to compensate for the different pull ratio. I haven't decided that I need a $45 TanPan...
Depends on need. I could finance multiple bike vacations with that savings really. Gonna try the Chinese option on the next build.
Francis, you should be using the L Twoo ERX groupset to compare to the SRAM wireless.
I don't know if I'm just lucky with my bikes and setups but with the latest shimano mechanical groups, the chain doesn't begin rubbing the FD cage until I'm on 2nd from the biggest gear on the cassette (2nd smallest cog). At which point I jump to the bigger front chainring anyway. So I never really have to trim!
Pneumatic tires were at one point a luxury, no? 😀👍 Electronic shifting a luxury today, but will become a must-have in the future? Yes I think so.
I have a Giant TCR Once team replica bought new in 2004 with campag Record groupset. Never have a problem shifting etc. Daren't try a modern bike as in 2004 it cost me £4500, equivalent would probably be £10000!
Why not test the ltwoo eRx which is the electronic 12 speed groupset with hydraulic brakes and no thumb lever?
I ride Ultegra Di2 12 speed on my SystemSix, and have just bought 105 Di2 12 speed to fit to my SuperSix evo. With 105 Di2 now available at £1300 ish, this is probably the effective cost point that Jimmi is looking for.
Hi said 300 more, not 1K
Guess the question is would it last? And further to that how would it compare to say Tiagra long term? Which I have on my Gravel bike and seems to be fairly durable, plus cheap easy to get parts. It was a upgrade to get hydraulic brakes on the gravel bike as though the bike and shifting was fine cable disks just didn’t cut it, plus they kept getting trashed by mud in the calliper!
My story: Early 90s Exage 7-spd (triple) - Tiagra 4400 (triple) - Ultegra 6700 - Ultegra 6800 - 105 R7000. Liked them all and I kinda wanna know Chorus, to compare.
On my latest frame I've actually gone back to 6700 and swapped chainrings for a sub compact, 30-28 climbs well! Me spinning out a 46-11? downhill maybe, I don't race. I just
4:14 Does the Ltwoo rx12 have a trim function? The front derailleur moves as if it has a trim function.
yes you can trim the front derailleur
@@Cade_Media Thanks, I was impressed with your review, I plan to upgrade my drivetrain to RX12 on Black Friday.
Can you get the electronic LTWOO ? That would be a brilliant comparison. Trying a higher end Chinese crank ?
105 always ...never fails , the work horse of all groupsets....
Great groupset video between significant price points gents. During the covid pandemic, I cashed in an isa and went all in with a summer bike sworks tarmac sl7 with full red and an atheos custom build as a winter bike. This has full rival on it. I'd choose rival over red, every time gents. The Chinese groupset V sram rival ( without power meter) for around £1200? Ish as a groupset test, would make a very canny video 📹
Wilier cento 10 Pro + Campagnolo Super Record EPS 12v🔝🔝🔝🇮🇹
I got lambasted for saying most people don't need the higher end groupsets, the cheaper ones are great for 90% of riders. This is more evidence.
99.9%
It would be interesting if you swapped out the cheap chainset for a Rotor, both for weight and performance. It would also look better. The electronic LTwoo would be a better comparison.
Love my SRAM Force, but like my GRX too. Agree with Jimmi that electronic is lovely, but mechanical is fine.
That said, I really like the extra bits that come with SRAM.
Real question is, would you choose SRAM Rival AXS over the L Twoo?
Great episode
what about the brakes. they´re hydraulic right?
with chep ones they often rub after taking the wheels out or bleeding, etc. changing anything can lead to problems if the pistons don´t move back anymore after a while
Make one video like this one but with th electric wheel top group set
To be fair, reliability and longevity is probably where the actual difference is. I'm pretty sure it's not that hard to make new cheap groupset to work really well just after it has been tuned in. I wouldn't personally get something expensive though, I have always had low to mid tier shimano. Though I'm now planning on getting gravel bike with shimano grx. I don't usually care what I get, but I really want hyraulic brakes this time.
Kinda torn between Cube nuroad EX and Road. I'm intrigued about EX with it's 1x speed design, but I know I'm going to go mostly on road and it seem like 2x speed is bit better for that. And I'm just used to it. Overall, for me gravel bike is do it all bike, mostly for road, but I want to be able to go off road, or on rough roads without worry. I think 1x is really for mtb, or if you actually use gravel to race in forests and rough terrain quite seriously. That said, idk why you wouldn't get mtb in that case.
will electronic groupset have a tendency to neglect maintenance as the shifting is always spot-on
Great videos lads yous should get the scott addict 30 with 105 test it too 👌🏻
It will be funny when they find out that the Ltwoo electronic group set is now available. Would be nice to see a comparison.
I have Campagnolo but I would accept the 105 or Tektro.
That’s why I went with rival, all the benefits but without the cost.
I currently have a cheap bike with Tourney with their STI shifters. I priced out 105 r7000 for $360. I was going to make that my next upgrade. Would you still recommend waiting until last to upgrade the groupset?
My bike with full Ultegra hydraulic cost less than half the Sram red group set. For value and functionality that's got to be up there. Over 10,000km in and zero problems.