Especially after the Namek saga, Goku felt like a more mature person. Someone who understood the stakes of a situation and knew what he was doing. In Super he's just dumb and goofy in a way that isn't endearing. In DBZ he's a veteran, someone who the other characters can put their trust in to handle the situation as the guardian of Earth.
To add to that, in the super hero movie Goku doesn't even understand the meaning behind Vegeta meditating. WHEN MR POPO TAUGHT HIM HOW TO MEDITATE IN OG DRAGONBALL.
If you have the so-called Omni King is just a child and the god-of-destruction is his pet, what right does Goku have to become mature? I prefer GT because should Goku acts immature, he is turned into a child. Should he become Martial Master, SSJ4.
@@wegoku7274 there's only one way I can cope with it is that he's doing this shit on purpose, as a goku fan I'm grasping at straws and can only look back in the early days
better title would be the most damaged anime in history they literally forgot about like 95% of the cast or just made them way less relevant for no reason at all
@@xnozicx You say that yet theres so many non sayian characters that can keep up with Goku and Vegeta considering Piccolo just got a huge boost in power in the movie that really doesnt mean they can't do something similar to other characters so they stay relevant
@@xnozicx It's not a question of power. In the cell saga, piccolo and tenshinhan were in the frontline while the saiyans were getting strong enough to defeat the foes. In the buu saga piccolo gained time for goten and trunks. In super piccolo was cast aside because vegeta wanted to fight. The humans might not be as strong as goku or vegeta but they can have moments to shine. One way to do that would've been to have resurrection f happen after the tournament between univerrse 6 and 7. Goku and vegeta would be visiting universe 6 while the humans and gohan would be the ones left to fight frieza
Goku in Z isn't stupid outside of battle. He is just a normal guy like all of us. He may be goofy and funny but that's part of his character and it doesn't mean that he is stupid.
The thing is that people tend to associate being goofy and funny with being stupid because they can sometimes seem like they don't take things seriously, which in turn makes them look thoughtless as a result. It's probably because of this that the abridged series decided to dumb him down for the sake of comedy, if I had to guess
@@slickchick5811 More like Goku's just bottling up his soul of wrath and trying not to drop those f-bombs while making apple turnovers out of those pisswagon hecklers with nunchucks he keeps in his back pocket!
I agree, super felt so unenjoyable because of these reasons. The best part was UI it felt like there was SOME progression for his talent that was beyond a stronger punch
@@maximusmarquez5660 that's true but in the moro arc it makes sense since in the t.o.p Jirin was meant to show Goku what he could become of he only focuses on strength, this is followed by moro. Say what you will about the super manga but something the moro arc did was show that Goku's activation of ultra instinct was something done out of nessessity, he then learns about not only how to access ultra instinct but also a sense of justice thanks to meirus that allows Goku to process as a character, this also works because of what moro is (being a sort of huge megamix of literally every villian).
@@IceyBro136 Yeah I know, and I know he camt stay on top forever but he literally gets rag dolled by gas their entire fight, he reaches a new level of ui, then gets rag dolled again. He goes into mui like its just the new form and then he losses badly. It just hard to look at.
@@maximusmarquez5660 we don't talk about the granola arc, if anything it's only going to be remembered for black freeza showing up and the end and bodying literally everyone
@@IceyBro136 It's sad to see, just wish to be the strongest and boom UI equals dog. Frieza has ultimate plot armor, I bet vegito or Gogeta is about to get dogged by frieza.
Cell and Buu saga Goku felt so REAL, like those moments where right before a fight he would turn to his teammates and just realistically talk with them were amazing, like that one scene when they were fighting Kid Buu, Goku turned to a newly revived Vegeta and said "You died once, if anything happens to you now you wont exist anymore. There will be nothing I can do to bring you back. Stay alive, Ok?" It used to really put pressure on you as a viewer, it forced that thought of "This could really be the end" into our heads, and got us super invested and immersed into the story. Now, in super the stakes are so much higher than they've ever been in the entire series, but it doesn't FEEL like it at all. Literally a tournament that decides whether the universe gets completely erased felt like I was watching a nickelodeon cartoon. Obviously I know that growing up has a big impact on this, but I can still go back to the Z sagas and FEEL the stakes, even though I know that everything will be fine in the end. Super just doesn't give that feeling
It also doesn't help that Super doesn't *have* any stakes. So far, every threat could be dealt with by the gods of destruction, or worst case scenario, Zeno. Conveniently writing them out of the plot can only go so far. Remember when Majin Buu was an actual threat to the universe - including Otherworld?
@@Arbron I can't really say that there HASN'T been stakes, but the stakes just never felt real. At no moment in the TOP did I ever even consider any concept of Universe 7 Losing
"He was never meant to be super intelligent" Let me remind You, this is the same guy that performed a PERFECT Kamehameha mere seconds after seeing it used for the first time.
Goku in Z:I am a warrior pure of heart awakened by rage! I am the legendary Super Saiyan Son Goku! Goku in GT:When you go around hurting others you can expect that hurt to return to you someday Goku in Super:Hey Jiren you look strong how about a fight?
That was when he still had Saiyan genes and some pride and showed it,he was balanced back then but now he's nowhere near balanced and it's like they've stripped him of his Saiyan side 😭
@@austin31697 kind of the opposite, it seems like the only character trait Goku has left is 'Saiyan Battle Lust', Goku no longer seems to have the mind of a mature martial artist, or even a human heart anymore, just 'fight fight fight'.
In Z, the other characters could confidently put their faith in Goku to save the Earth. In Super, I swear that they can’t trust him to be alone in a room for five minutes.
The two Gokus Shanks Goku: -Inspirational, like a role model -Usually serious but can be a little naive and goofy -Big Brother/Father figure, if Krillin is getting beaten and Goku steps in, he’s gonna go Older brother mode -Meditates constantly, whis is literally popo v2(but weaker of course) -Hardened legend cut from marble, has fought so many battles, and is typically a wise 40-50 year old man Clownku: -Usually Goofy, can be serious in the manga -Confused of what Meditation is even though he mediated as a child -Hasn’t lived those 40-50 years Shanku has lived through -Doesn’t have his guard up, which is incredibly out of character -Banged chi chi twice but doesn’t know what a kiss is(I think chi chi raped Clownku) -Doesn’t ever have an inspirational speech(unless it’s the manga)
In a recent interview with toriyama he was asked the reason of goku's gi orange color in Z, he said it was to simbolize the orange gi of shaolin monks fighters who train their mind and body to achieve martial arts perfection, so that makes the super hero scene with vegeta even more idiotic, goku is THE specialist in mind and spirit training.
I think the point of the scene was more that Goku was surprised to see Vegeta of all people doing it because he has NEVER been shown doing so before. I don't get why this gets people so mad.
@@thatboyakira4202 Did you watch too much Ocean Dub growing up? How sad, Super doesn't live up to your nostalgia. It must piss you off that so many people love it.
@@Jim-pq9pm sorry, I only Watched Hebert Richards with Wendel Bezerra dubbing the good and old DBZ. Y'know, because I am a Brazilian with more that Football and Samba in my head.
"Goodbye role model Goku, until we meet again " wow, that was powerful. Calling Goku a role model, a title you normally reserve for Tien. And the "until we meet again" part references the last episode of GT.
@@stanleyhyde8529 Tf do you mean "He was never a good role model"? My guy, did you even watch the mf video? Or are you stuck with that mindset that Goku isnt a good father because...
Finally it's been addressed! This was one of the main reasons in Super that bothered me so much. Goku and Ryu from Street Fighter were always my favorite characters because they are experienced fighters who long for a good fight and improving themselves to become stronger and grow as fighters. Goku being stupid in Super REALLY rubbed me the wrong way because that's not his character.
The only reason we like him is because of how awesome he was in Z. In super, he is just an obnoxious one dimensional fool who only cares about getting excited from fighting. He is a joke, a sad joke.
To say that Goku is only liked because of the way he was portrayed in Z is underselling him, I feel. He was always a likeable character due to his good heart and goofy, laid back nature to counterbalance his love of fighting and becoming stronger, and that Goku that was established in the original Dragon Ball is the basis for who is. It's just that Z built upon that by making him a better version of himself while still keeping him in line with who he was originally established to be; in other words, he was at his peak in Z, and it made him a more fleshed out character as a result. I won't deny that Z is popular, but I don't think it's fair to say that's the main reason why people like him, since if his character wasn't so well received, the original series would probably not have gotten a sequel to begin with
This is why toriyama wanted to end the series early on but after being convinced to continue, he knew this would happen to goku and tried to make others like gohan and gotens into the main characters but people never liked those ideas so he was forced to keep working on goku even though there wasn't much progress or drama that could be used anymore
Wrong. Toriyama brought back Goku because he felt like Gohan wasn't made for the role of being the main protagonist of Dragon Ball. So he brought Goku back and ended the series with the Goku flying off with Oob. Everything afterwards is just DLC for his Manga.
@@MereMere but he still considered making gohan the main protagonist that's why he defeated cell. Even if he never went through with it, he still tried or thought of trying to continue the series with gohan as the lead
@@b__w_4565 The fans never attacked him. That's just stuff the fans come up with to cope with the fact that Goku retook his place as the main character by the end of the arc.
All I can say is thanks for this, being a voice in the community that actually keeps it real. Dragonball has fallen so far from what it was and you're labeled a hater when you try to voice criticism.
A Master Martial Artist who have trained his mind, body and spirit to their peak ended up becoming a clown who doesn't even know what meditation is anymore. Shame. The Goku I know is Number 1.
if you read the manga, specially the first half, before Piccolo Jr., most of the training he did is now being repurposed in Super, this is very evident when he meets Mr. Popo for the first time, where he learns how to move without wasting stamina, or even that there's always someone stronger than you, and how to keep your heart tranquil. By the way, that fight was even recycled for the match between Goku and Hit, which was also about conserving stamina and keep it cool as much as possible and study the enemy.
On that note Ultra Instinct is so not new its literally just the Turtle Hermit style from all the way back in the 21th Tournament. It already became kind of apparent when we got the third way to unleashed hidden potential in the Boo arc that Toriyama was running out of new martial arts troupes but Super is the worst with recycling old lesions and selling them as new.
@@rynobehnke8289 Super it's mostly done through meetings and feedbacks from various conferences, it's not really Toriyama's story, even this form was not pitched by Toriyama, so it's no surprised that it's almost entirely recycled.
@@diddly-squat9332 Well given that Toriyama started the recycle Popo's and Muten Roshi's lessons stuff when he wrote Resurrection F (which as far as I know he was still pretty highly invested in) and so Toei thought they could just get away with also just recycling old ideas. But really the way Super recycles lesson from the first half of the Manga is even more blatant than the z era movies which based them self highly on what was currently important in the main series.
If they put Goku in his End Of Z gi when Super returns and he acts like a rookie again I might turn Super Saiyan. That gi should represent becoming a Martial Arts Master. Like he is in GT. 👊
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 As far as his fighting technique, Goku never learned anything in GT. He unlocked a new transformation, but that’s got nothing to do with what we are talking about.
@@zenkairanger Saiyan scholar said few things to learn in his last sentence so what are you talking about? Goku still had more room to grow so my point still stands.
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 Yes. He said while he was wearing his orange gi he still had a few things to learn. You just said the exact same thing we have been saying. When he puts on the blue gi he’s a master. He doesn’t learn anything in GT. He just unlocks Super Saiyan 4. I think you are confused pal, we are talking about Goku as a martial artist. What does he learn in GT about fighting other than going Super Saiyan 4? If you can answer me that then we can get a discussion going.
They basically turned Goku into Homer Simpson from the Frank Grimes episode. It's really weird that they made meditation a foreign concept to Goku despite the fact that he has done combat meditation training with Krillin since the beginning
I completely agree, actually Goku's change in DBS left me thinking "What the hell!!!". But then I came to the conclusion that Akira at this point and for a long time now, he's not interested in DB but in the royalties TOEI gives him for selling the product under the "this is canon" seal (something the Japanese do take into account when it comes to a series).
@@toastertarts2990 typical response from a someone who probably hasn't watched the whole series dub and sub...goku numerous times in OG and Z clearly stated his motives for sifferent situations weren't for just a good fight. In fact most of the major antagonists in each of the old series goku fought for revenge fallen people, his friends, or to protect the innocent...do better
@@brandonsmart4192 Goku spares Vegeta for a future rematch and so he can use him to get stronger. Goku spares Frieza purely based off ego and nothing else then calls him a fool for trying to kill him anyway. Goku doesn't kill Fat Buu even though he could because the fighters on earth had it covered in his opinion and then later on he decides to wish for Buu to get reincarnated so he can have a sparing partner in the future. I'm not saying he's a bad person but the man's really selfish
You know, what's funny to me is that one of the reasons I liked Ultra Instinct so much in the anime, is that Goku SHUT HIS DOWN MOUTH while fighting in that state. No goofing around, no excitation about fighting, none of that Stupid Super Goku shtick. Instead we got a serious face, close to no dialogue and him trying to get the job done as best he could. Now the sad thing, it's just a resemblance of Z Goku not the actual one resurfacing, the anime never goes out of its way to show he's in a "serious mindset" except for that one instance when Jiren makes the frankly stupid move to try and hurt his friends (move that should have gotten him erased if you ask me but whatever) and Goku gets mad for a second, so all of what I mentioned above is more about looks than real substance. But I take what I can get at this point, anything is better than Stupid Super Goku.
Agreed. Skill alone should have embarrassed Caulifla, Kale and a number of others. It is reasonable as to why Vegeta can shine with him. But everyone else not on his level will not be able to overcome this guy - if he's the version from Dragonball Z during both Cell and Kid Buu battle. He shoud be as sharp as Sasuke in battle at this point. Maybe even more.
the “skill” these days are just who can punch the fastest? and who can fire lasers the biggest while screaming your lung out? martial arts master my foot.
OG DB Goku: A Young, Naive, Goofy Child who’s new to the world and exploring new adventures. Z Goku: An Serious and Heroic Man that protects the innocent, inspires other and is the hope of the universe. GT Goku: an Gentle Wise Elder who cares about his family and friends and finally ends his journey. Super Goku: A Stupid Idiot that only cares about his own selfish ambitions and desires even if he meant harming those he loves and cares about.
That one of the things that gt did right. Making goku act like a adult and a veteran. Instead of making him acting like a kid. yes he is a kid in biological sense but mentally as a adult.
In some ways it's like the Ash's Pikachu syndrome. After a point Pikachu gets nerfed because he becomes too powerful. Except in Gokus case he just gets nerfed in character development.
Remember when they came up with explanations for ashs pikachu being nerfed like it's energy was drained to a degree pikachu got sick. It is one of the only good things black and white sagas did right was giving a explanation to pikachu not having his electricity if only the writers remembered pikachu using other moves has done damage to legendaries
OG DB goku is an lovable and funny kid, Z Goku a Serious and Heroic Man and GT is a Wise and Generous Grandfather. Super dropped this man’s soul I swear…
Goku was a fighting genius. He defeated Cell, but didn't know he needed to destroy his legs, and if he had known there would be no SS2. That instant transmission kamehameha was EPIC. He doesn't feel the same in the clips I've seen.
Goku was always silly and lighthearted, but never unintelligent. He wasn’t stupid, he just didn’t have experience with other people and so he was ignorant about certain social things and a country bumpkin. But he always learned quickly and was able to adapt. With the start of Z and Goku being an adult and a father, there was a consistent growth for him. He could still be lighthearted and maybe say ditzy things, but he’d get serious when he needed to be. He was one of the smartest fighters in the show. His portrayal in Super honestly feels like the writers thought that jokes about him being dumb was how we actually thought his character was, and so they just wrote him as a complete idiot. I swear, sometimes he’s worse than DBZA Goku in terms of his idiocy
I grew up with dragon ball Z and GT and the goku I knew was way better version of him than super goku I totally agreed with every thing you said in this video. But to be honest toriyama should have ended z with his original ending where goku was training uub. you could see that their was no more story to tell, we all know that the buu saga had some bad writing that's why he should've ended dragon ballz right then and there R.I.P to the goku I grow up with and loved🥺🥺😢
Man you’re so right about teamfourstar being blamed like dude it was just for fun. I seen people blaming them instead of the fan base and toei who decided to maybe do that to match them because of all the views the abridged videos were bringing. I love watching Z and seeing a mature yet goofy goku not like super where he’s a ducking child
Sometimes I think about how wonderful Super could have been if everyone didn't get Flanderized to hell and it just focused on learning "god ki", everyones new family life after the Buu saga, the tournament of power which was actually pretty interesting, training the new Saiyans, Future Future Trunks's stuff which was also pretty interesting and didn't absolutely destroy the plot(looking at you Frieza), kept the characters' personalities at that time so Vegeta wasn't aggressive to Goku anymore, Goku was still wise-ish and calm, and everyone else had personality still.
Goku always was a very smart martial artist, he could have been clueless in some stuff and a very naive person oin specific times for comedic effect, but as a martial artist Goku was always a PRO no matter what version, this is not a element that the English dub created and was missing in the Japanese original or the manga or the Latin American version (The one I grow up that was pretty faithful in how the portrait the Characters).....in all these versions Goku was a master level of strategist when it comes to Martial arts, manage to figure it out opponents and improvise tactics against even stronger foes than even himself. Its sad what Super did to him, no matter what other version of dub you watched of the OG Dragon Ball, DBZ and DBGT, Goku always was a smart guy in combat and took things very seriously.
This was a outstanding video I wanted to cry at the end it's truly a shame where Goku has ended up I think it's me having to cope with the fact he's really gone so I will say goodbye as well an hopefully we'll meet again.🥲👏👏
Boruto had the right idea with naruto's character instead of butchering his character they made him more mature and a mentor and role model for the next gen unlike Goku.
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 True but they traded his power for wisdom an we are just supposed to be ok with it nobody wants to see Naruto the man we followed all our life's a man who's struggled time after time be pushed aside as nothing but constant reminder that hey Naruto's here it's just as bad
@@kylonbell123 Nah it isn't as bad because Naruto is still here and his wisdom is being passed down to the next generation unlike Goku in DB, who wants to see the same old stuff over and over again from the same character who doesn't change or develop? Naruto changed in the Boruto series he's less erratic and much wiser as he's responsible for the entire village and ninja world, Goku has no responsibility he's just "I wanna fight strong guys" especially in Super.
@@kylonbell123 Not everything is about Power and Strength , canonically it makes sense due to the time of peace between Toneri and present day boruto era. Gohan fans have the same problem as well
@@Jim-pq9pm then maybe u are the best one here to tell me why am I feeling it's not the same goku , what has changed?? , is it the humor through which we are shown goku's naviety or what.
@@madhursaxena2645 There's some bad episodes and moments, but overall he's always been carefree and goofy and ignorant. Sure Super takes it too far sometimes, in those moments I would agree with you, but like I said, generally he's the same
9:29 I have not watched Super but i have seen the Broly and Superhero movie and watching this scene made me very confused. It's mostly because when i was watching the Cell saga i interprated the whole point of SSJ2 being the main cast learning this exact lesson. Everyone knew you needed something stronger than super sayian to defeat Cell and they were smart enough to figure out there is probably an SSJ 2. And this is where my fav scene from both DB and DBZ shows up: Perfect Cell has fought most of the fighters and then Trunks appears thinking he has "cracked the code to ssj2" by buffing up his muscles but because of that, he was too heavy to properly fight so he gets beaten up by Cell. So Cell (like the badass that he is) mocks him for his way of fighting by buffing up his muscles himself and being able to properly move unlike Trunks. Then he goes back to his regular body form and just leaves while announcing on TV hours later that he is making the Cell Games. Nowadays Gohan's ssj 2 tranformation is mostly related to 90s kids saying "this is where Gohan was PEAK" and so on but to moreso represented how nobody except their own dad believed in him and he finally achieved what everyone was trying to do only because he found out who he is and just letting it all go. It was because of Goku that SSJ2 exists but in a spiritual way. Passing what he learned as a kid and adult to Gohan and help him achieve his own moment of power. I know nobody is gonna reads this because most of the time my comments never recieve attention but i just wanted to give my thoughts on the matter
It almost brought me to tears to know there's other people who loves Goku as much as I do and absolutely despise how they protrayed him in super. Every Dragon Ball fan should have the decency to feel indecent when watching super. I wish I could give you a thousand thumb-ups!!
I'm a new comer of db and I started with the original and go all the way to super and without looking anything up I came to the same disappointment conclusion of super goku
Every body saying gohan got nerved and vegeta never gets a win but this is the biggest issue with dragon ball right now bring back son goku . Who's with me on this
Good video and you make good points of which I agree. That said we should be fair on one point you made, Goku didn't ask for the losing universes to be erased in the tournament of power, if I remember correctly. All he wanted was to fight with people from other universes. It was the stupid omniking/grandpriest that decided that the losers should be erased so I don't necessarily see that as a flaw of Goku's as you had stated. I just think it shows the evil/cruelty of the "gods" and I agree that it was a foolish writing decision for the story especially given how we all knew that the universes would just get wished back anyways. A better way to write the story, including the erasure of the universes was to make it permanent and show that these gods aren't actually good guys and it could have probably led to the surviving universes trying to build power to get revenge for the erased universes and overthrow the current gods. That's just my opinion anyways.
To be honest I was born 5 years before battle of gods. But I can the diffrence stupidity and naivity db to dbgt goku is somebody who you respect and want to be your friend. DB's goku is somebody who easily irritates you by constantly asking simple questions that even a five year old knows in school. That the difference for me
This is why GT Goku was more cooler than Super When Goku and Goku Jr met it was so amazing how he lowkey manipulated Jr But with good intentions I don’t think he would do that he probably says the truth without knowing the consequences because he’s always dumb but in GT he did different he know what’s the dragonball’s capable of and it’s consequences and it’s amazing how he just accepts and respects the dragonball’s wishes, Goku always finds a way to do something ridiculous to scape the dragonball’s bidding and find a way to scape like he always do because his the kind of person who always moves too much but now he just stays for his ideals and the love of his grandpa showed him is so beautiful and relatable that is so simple he probably can become a monster if he like his instincts or just go crazy and be free and destroy everything like cell and his more terrifying because his a unpredictable genius and consequences genius but he doesn’t care about that he only cares the love and the experience and how fragile everything is, his like Superman but better imo and Ngl his the most humanistic person than any of us ever
Goku is definitely the most damaged character in anime because he nearly died a lot times and died a few times as well, but after each battle he became stronger and stronger, and became the strongest protagonist than any other anime's protagonist as well.
@@therealwhoever a digimon im just being a troll about the Goku > your favorite anime character (he the main partner in digimon xross wars digimon power level are actually quite dumb in cannon alot being 1-C ((complex multiversal)) before X antibody forms)
6:45 it’s like the writers couldnt come up with a way to show that even though Goku and vegeta have trained their whole lives whis has lived for so much longer. instead of thinking of a way to do that they regress their skill so whis looks like the angel in comparison. Quite sad honestly. Lazy writing strikes again
when z goku came to fight, you knew he meant business even when he was weaker than an opponent like with raditz or cell he stuck in to the very end and lasted the longest possible with fighters given his level at the point - even in the og manga = he was a hero because even though he wasn't a knock off superman like the dub may intend you to believe he always could tell to fight evil and even when he spared them like with vegeta while the intention was selfish he also admits that villains have the potential for good like piccolo saving his sons life after years of hatred between goku and him - ill miss you goku, thank you for the memories.
Goku let Piccolo live for purely selfish reasons. He was afraid that there was nobody to offer him a challenge. He's the literal reincarnation of a demon. He let Vegeta go because he thought it "would be a waste" meaning a waste of a good fighter, not that he thought he could be a good guy.
Who the hell at toei hates goku so much. Like lately they have been destroying everything that makes goku, goku. I miss when he was a wise battle hardened warrior. How can the fan base let the writers know we hate this version of goku.
The impression I got from Goku giving Vegeta shit was that Goku thought he was doing TOO much mental training and was slacking on his physical training. But maybe I took it the wrong way. Either way you’re right that Goku shouldn’t be downplaying it because he’s used mental training before. The only way I can rationalize it is that he thought Vegeta was overdoing it and was joking around with him to motivate him in some way idk. Super writing is just not that good tho let’s be honest 😭
It had good writing, but you aren't going to get some complex multifaceted characters or plots. It doesn't have to be, its still a gripping story. DBZ is DBZ, HxH, death note, attack on titan etc are different.
4:50 I always find it interesting when people defend Goku causing the ToP to happen by saying Zeno was going to delete all the universes anyway, and Goku actually helped by giving everyone a chance to survive. The issue with that is Goku didn't even know about that, so why is he given credit for it? Yeah, a nice coincidence, but that's way too convenient to ignore the consequences Goku's neverending want for battle.
To be fair, if you are going to say "he didn't know" I will counter that he didn't know they would try to destroy it anyways. It is not like Goku ever said anything like "oh, and if any universe's team is disqualified, their entire universe should be erased!". If anything, I always found this arc to be evidence that the current gods (SPECIALLY, but restricted to, ZENO) are just horrible and NEED. TO. GO. There is no world in which straight up deleting the universes is justifiable. The only universe erasure that I find somewhat justifiable is the anime future Trunks one, and that is only because: 1. That universe was already pretty much dead (it is implied that Zamasu left Earth for last, so every other planet should already be dead by the time Trunks travels to the past). 2. On the anime, they did that thing of Zamasu kinda becoming one with the uniserve itself and, while that is kinda of stupid, it does justify destroying the universe itself if only to stop Zamasu's disease to spread even further.
That's how it always is with goku. He makes a dumb or selfish choice, gets punished, then his dumb choice is shown to be the right one as it leads to a positive outcome. Thus making his punishment pointless. It's like that so we don't hate him. Stupid writing choice.
Toei tried to put Luffy's personality into Goku in the anime and it was definitely Toei's worst decision. In the manga, at the beginning, with how advanced the anime was, things happened very quickly. but from the arc of Moro, it is noted that Goku analyzes his actions even when he gives the zensu bean to Moro, he says that he will take responsibility no matter what happens, just like with Yamcha, Tien, Piccolo and Vegeta, giving him the opportunity to that he thinks things through and doesn't give him the zensu bean just because he wants to fight, and don't even mention how well managed Granola the survivor's arc was.
Bro, Master Roshi taught Goku how important relaxing and meditation was to training when he was a child. Its one of my favorite Roshi scenes. One of his first lessons from his first official master. Super really demolished Goku. Its a shame Toriyama cant remember his characters.
I haven't watched the amine at all, or any for that matter but I have seen stuff on the Internet about this guy and he's right. Goku has gone form the master to the apprentice and yes he's had some great moments in super, like the "I won't let you destroy my world" part or when he found out what happened to his family VIA black. If anything Vegeta is Goku now as he's grown as an character, meanwhile Goku is like "oh I was meant to do this? I didn't know that was training" like my guy you did everything as a kid
Dub or not goku in the saiyan saga alone felt developed and grown to maturity. The guy felt like he outgrown his old naive childishness. Toriyama seems to forgot all of it. His super version seems like the abridge version of him. Vegeta should be the one whos physical and goku the mental. Seeing thats the whole point of the saiyan saga. Nappa and vegeta was strong in brute force but due to different techniques by the z warriors even though they are weaker in terms of power thet still gave them a run for their money. Goku using the kaioken and spirit ball to defeat vegeta. In the namek saga we saw vegeta learning from his experience on earth and actually gained an advantage against freeza's minions by using the techniques he picked up in earth like hiding his power and sensing energy. Vegeta should be the one struggling how to overcome enemies with not just brute force alone. By GT we see a very different vegeta he was more calmer more rational and goku as despite being in a child form you'd still see that he uses that child body to taunt his opponents even copying his enemies moves just to push their buttons. Their fight against ice and shu shenlong where he was more serious because things have escalated far beyond what they could handle. He didnt mock around and tested his powers and endanger the risk of losing. While in the ToP he was fucking about trying to force his this ultra instinct. Like he didn't learned what happened during the cell saga when gohan failed the first time and he actually regretted that he ever involved his kid.
Great video. Agree with everything 100%. It's like I had all this in my head watching DB Super but could never put into words or explain it in such detail to other people.
I truly do love Goku in the Goku Black arc and how he shows his experience, but I also love when he fought Hit both times and showed how experienced he was in battle then as well.
You been speaking my hearts tears man. They are ruining our beloved character. For money! It's not long before they get to the end of Z and I just hope to Kami they get it right.
I completely agree about that resest button on experience. Goku already trained with several gods before Super, and he was treated with respect in terms of battle sense. Now in Super, he’s relearning things that he already learned way back in Dragonball. At this point Gokus senses in Ssblue should’ve been Jiren level if they didn’t nerf his battle experience. There really was no need for Ssblue or god. They were already strong enough.
That was the purpose of making Gohan the main character. Goku’s maturation peaked at the end of Cell saga which was the perfect time to pass the torch to Gohan but AT changed his mind and kept it as Goku that’s why it had to end after Buu. There was no room for growth of the main character. GT was a victory lap for the franchise. Like AT said super is a CASUAL continuation. It’s supposed to be light and goofy so Goku as the main character has to be an idiot
"Light continuation". Sorry but I don't believe that. They wouldn't have a serious storyline like wiping out entire universes and having the main characters take part of that process ending the lives of trillions of innocents. They attempted a dark storyline but failed. They wouldn't have written a storyline where evil Goku kills his wife in another universe if they weren't trying to be serious. They wouldn't have had a mature Granolah arc in which someone victimized by Saiyans wanted revenge against the same race. Character growth doesn't peak. It is just an excuse. Superman has similarities but has been around for almost 100 years and they're still doing new storylines. There's now multiple universes. Plenty of potential ideas.
Take a look at the events where Goku was 'mature'. It was a life to world threating event with no other option but to buckle up and focus on the crisis. In DBZ he was pressed to be the one to find the solution, have a way to end the threat, he had to be the strongest, he had to be in crisis mode and handle the situation.... by the time of the Cell Games he found that Gohan had the potential to surpass him and made the push to make it happen. It was his turning point imo. After word he started down a path of teaching and passing on insight and knowledge to others to assist in saving the day. He no longer had to be the only one to finish it. Buu Saga reflected his peaked growth, the constant strain of having to be that guy. By the end of the Buu fight he was no longer the only one that could save the world, galaxy, universe. In super, Goku was given time to relax, the heal the mental strain and be himself again... .closer to his teenage years in attitude with a touch of growth to his normal self. He gave it his all against Beerus and came up short and was given mercy and opportunity. His goal of getting stronger to get stronger and challenge stronger opponents became cemented as things would just work out. Goku may have regressed but he regressed into being able to be himself. The weight is lifted off him. Vegeta is on par with him, Beerus and Whis help them train and improve further from them training on their own. A gaggle of Gods to back him up when things get dire, Dragonballs a plenty for what ever situation (Earth & Namek).... he doesn't need or have the stress anymore. He has grown in other ways than maturity. His fighting style has matured by utilizing martial techniques, he assesses his opponents and is either testing himself or teaching others to bring out their potential (Goku Black aside but what can you do against immortality?). No longer is he the sole savior, he can let others shine. Character growth does peak. Superman is a perfect example for this. How many times has the timeline been reset? How many times have they introduced different problems or situations for him to grow in different ways from the reset? The end of Superman (future timeline) usually ends up having him be cold, out of touch, go live in the sun for a bit, or evil. Dragonball super is a continuation, not a reset to a time line or alternate universe. You can have plenty of mature arcs within a light continuation but remember Goku is no longer the main focus and there is a huge detachment.
FACTS!! TBH I said this before but I consider Goku from his manga release in 1994 to Dragon Ball Z's Anime end in 1996 different characters than 2013 and on Goku. Theres so many little things that add up and make me side eye and re-read the original manga and be like "why is Goku acting like this when hes shown he knows this" I know Toriyama is forgetful person but Come on. Loved the Video!
Toriyama doesn't actually write the manga or the anime he just gives them that outline for the people who work on the anime and the manga and they write what they want and stuff if Toriyama actually wrote super and Drew it then it would totally be better
And Super fanboys/girls have the nerve to trash on GT Goku, which was the best version of Goku in my opinion in terms of skills, technique, knowledge, fighting experience, power etc. Leagues better than Super Goku.
Goku is supposed to be a goofball who fights for sport, but takes it very, very seriously when needed, to the point where he rarely made obvious mistakes, assuming he made any. thats how he was usually portrayed in DBZ. during his fight with Raditz, he let go of his tail because he always believed in some decency in people, that they can change for the better. but when they betray that faith in them afterwards, he doesnt give third chances. which is why he decided it was right to try to kill Raditz at that point. he did the same with Vegeta and even Freiza, though only Vegeta actually took his second chance when it was offered. even him giving Cell a senzu bean was understandable based on his general philosophy of wanting a fair fight. Gohan wasnt injured yet, so Goku wanted cell to be in top form when facing a fighter like Gohan in his own top form. but in Super, him giving cell a senzu bean would probably have been played off as him fumbling the bean and accidentally tossing it towards cell and then laughing like an idiot or something
You hit the nail on the head! I’ve been saying this for years now. I don’t normally comment on videos but this video should be sent to the writers of the the anime. Great analysis, DBZ Goku is my favorite character of all time. I’m glad to see such a quality video essay expressing such gratitude towards his character. Thank you!
Cell Saga Goku is the him at his best character wise you see how cocky he can be but just how far seeing he can be, knowing the next step beyond super Saiyan, seeing Gohan s potential, tempting Vegeta to become stronger and ultimately giving his life a second time to defend not only earth but his son. Watching him go from a 12 year old boy to this very unique adult. He was a grown man, but still had his child like nature really balanced him as a man. Did they forget that mental training is how he got Gohan to reach super Saiyan. Hell he managed mind, body and soul training when he met Mr. Popo.
The most ironic part is that GT Goku, as a kid, seems infinitely more mature than Super Goku. Sure, canonicity aside, GT is supposed to take place 5 years after End of Z and even more than Super but still, GT actually got Goku's character right. He was super goofy and childlike but he got serious when he had to. He didn't need that many flashy transformations like SSJ God, Blue or Ultra Instinct, neither he relied on just bute strenght or power alone, he used what he had and made it work, he adapted himself to any situation and when he couldn't win he got back up and learned. And SSJ4, even though it was a new form, it worked well within the narrative and even had some emotional weight when it appeared. He cared about people, especially Pan, that's something Goku doesn't do in Super. Aside from Black killing ChiChi and Goten, he stopped caring about literally eveyone to the point of having his fighting obsession be his most prominent trait, beside his stupidity. And plus, even when GT Goku was being goofy, it wasn't to the point of being insufferable.
anyone think that the people who make current Dragon Ball haven't seen the originals in years and just watch tfs to catch up? because Goku in Super acts way more like tfs Goku than Z Goku.
I'm coping so hard...that I believe that Goku in the Super Hero movie was caught off guard that Vegeta even meditates in the 1st place since he never did it before...instead of having Goku be a Dum@55...
The amount of screaming it took to use ssj3 in the buu saga probably blocked the oxygen to his brain by a significant amount, especially since he was screaming for that long. Maybe thats why he’s so dumb in Super.
2:02 Yeah, about the whole kissing thing. I think DBS is not canon because what about when Old Kai wanted Goku to get a girl to kiss him? What about the simple fact that Goku got married which involves kissing the bride. Just based on this, I think DBS takes place after a prequel that we don't yet have,........a past that never was. Not a true sequel series to Z.
There's too many people who 1) Love the Abridged Series and treat it as canon. 2) Love Vegeta so much and want him to be in the spotlight, even if at the cost of Goku's character.
Newer Dragon Ball likes to take inspiration from fanmade stuff that the writers & editors liked. The Tournament of Power was inspired from some multiverse tournament fan comic. Dragon Ball AF Fanfic inspired the Goku Black Saga, the Super Saiyan God Ritual, & likely the design of Ultra Instinct as well as Broly returning as a good guy. Goku's dumbing down probably took inspiration from DBZ Abridged, although it was never as bad as you claim. Just canonizing that Goku didn't understand Pregnancy or Romance (to be fair Akira Toriyama admitted to not being good at writing romance) I have to rewatch Super, although it never seemed that much of a character assassination. Granted much of Super is Slice of Life when they aren't dealing with god stuff & both Saiyans still have a lot to learn in that area. If you think Goku had it bad, Sonic had it so much worse during the 2010s just saiyan. Considering the Slice of Life style of Dragon Ball Super I find it surprising we didn't get an episode where Goku takes his family on vacation to King Kai's Planet only to learn they usually vacation at Kame House. Goku & Vegeta were so busy training during the new movie & weren't actually the focus. The line with Goku being confused by Vegeta's Meditation Training probably is more to highlight their differences with Goku preferring to spar & work out in heavy gravity with plenty of weights to where he doesn't realize how different Vegeta is from what I remember. I'm sure by the time of the Uub Saga Goku will feel like he's ready to be a somewhat competent teacher.
Goku in Z was my idol. People keep saying his dumb and he was always this way in Z. This is completely untrue. Z Goku is not dumb he was smart and mature and he gained wisdom as the series went on especially by the Cell saga. Kami taught him the appreciation for life. This is why he tried to spare his enemies even when Kid Goku use to body his enemies in the past. Fighting Frieza taught Goku that not everyone can be redeemed. As he left Frieza for dead on Namek and killed him in Trunks timeline. Goku in super doesn’t know what a kiss is yet in Z he has two children and he was perfectly fine whoring out Videl and Bulma to Old Kai. The Goku in Z knows he won’t be around forever that’s why he wanted Gohan, Goten and Trunks to become strong. Even GT Goku is wise beyond his years and he was in a child body. Super Goku is a just a joke
Bro even Gohan an Krillin used Mental Training during Namek bruh that really ruined my day just wow.😭 Even Frieza told about it Goku he made it a point to say it after he left his cocoon RIP continuity.
In DB, Z and GT Goku even when facing much stronger opponents.. he always eventually outsmarted them and found a way to beat them. In Super, he has no fighting intelligence. Constantly outsmarted
No, people think Goku becomes a superman clone when he gets heroic but that's not it, you don't need to be a symbol of peace in order to be heroic, that's what makes Goku a great character back in dbz, he has an extreme desire of feeling the thrill of a battle but he also knows what is in danger. Unlike superman, Heroic Goku still has a desire for battle.
In all fairness Whis has eons, billions of years of experience so by comparison Goku and Vegeta are rookies. But against other characters who are as old as them or younger there really isn't any excuse. Even in the original Japanese version Goku was never this stupid or selfish. Yes he loved to fight, train and grow stronger but there was always a sense of growth maturity. He learned from his mistakes and tried to improve. Z Goku after the BS he went through on Namek wouldn't have spared Frieza, nor would Vegeta. Gogeta should have iced him in the Broly movie. The only reason Frieza is alive is because he's a nostalgia grab, because fans dool over him! There are so many villains in DB, DBZ and even DBGT who are much more interesting but everyone seems to rank Frieza as the best Dragon Ball villain ever! F$#% you Raditz was a better villain! But back on topic; Goku being this stupid is unforgivable, Toriyama knows better but he chose to go down this path because money. Hey I understand, money makes the world run, but he's lost his passion and direction in Dragon Ball and Toyotaro seems to just be going with it instead of stepping up as Toriyama's heir and going "Hey, we took it too far. We should pull it back a bit." He lost his inspiration and it shows, especially in this last arc. There are moments where they definitely tried but they feel so few and far between. They could have done so much more with the plot threads but didn't. Wasted potential; that sums up Super Duper in a nutshell. If anyone else disagrees with me, fine, don't @ me going "Well Goku was only that way in the dub and Toriyama-Sama said he's supposed to be this way." Shut up Brainy smurf I'm not replying.
Didn't they make a deal with Frieza & he's only still alive as part of that deal they made? Raditz was weak & probably could have been turned into a good guy if given the chance like Vegeta was, I barely even consider him a villain just a way to progress the plot. Would have been interesting if there was a timeline where Raditz replaced Yamcha.
Especially after the Namek saga, Goku felt like a more mature person. Someone who understood the stakes of a situation and knew what he was doing. In Super he's just dumb and goofy in a way that isn't endearing. In DBZ he's a veteran, someone who the other characters can put their trust in to handle the situation as the guardian of Earth.
To add to that, in the super hero movie Goku doesn't even understand the meaning behind Vegeta meditating. WHEN MR POPO TAUGHT HIM HOW TO MEDITATE IN OG DRAGONBALL.
If you have the so-called Omni King is just a child and the god-of-destruction is his pet, what right does Goku have to become mature? I prefer GT because should Goku acts immature, he is turned into a child. Should he become Martial Master, SSJ4.
Even in Parody, you can see one is combat experienced while the other is goofing around.
ua-cam.com/video/lMPBH9FVbVQ/v-deo.html
@@wegoku7274 there's only one way I can cope with it is that he's doing this shit on purpose, as a goku fan I'm grasping at straws and can only look back in the early days
@@wegoku7274 now I'm glad I didn't watch the movie.
better title would be the most damaged anime in history they literally forgot about like 95% of the cast or just made them way less relevant for no reason at all
Oh snap 😂 Also true.
Bc of Nameks power jumps. The x50 boost of super saiyan was too much
Facts and I hate when people say "bUt TheRe hUmaN" idc it's anime its unrealistic anyways
@@xnozicx You say that yet theres so many non sayian characters that can keep up with Goku and Vegeta considering Piccolo just got a huge boost in power in the movie that really doesnt mean they can't do something similar to other characters so they stay relevant
@@xnozicx It's not a question of power. In the cell saga, piccolo and tenshinhan were in the frontline while the saiyans were getting strong enough to defeat the foes. In the buu saga piccolo gained time for goten and trunks. In super piccolo was cast aside because vegeta wanted to fight. The humans might not be as strong as goku or vegeta but they can have moments to shine. One way to do that would've been to have resurrection f happen after the tournament between univerrse 6 and 7. Goku and vegeta would be visiting universe 6 while the humans and gohan would be the ones left to fight frieza
Goku in Z isn't stupid outside of battle. He is just a normal guy like all of us. He may be goofy and funny but that's part of his character and it doesn't mean that he is stupid.
The thing is that people tend to associate being goofy and funny with being stupid because they can sometimes seem like they don't take things seriously, which in turn makes them look thoughtless as a result. It's probably because of this that the abridged series decided to dumb him down for the sake of comedy, if I had to guess
Yeah that’s true
@@matthewkuscienko4616 At worst he can be naive and perhaps innocently insensitive, but yeah, he never struck me as being "stupid."
He was more uneducated if anything
@@ssjsal2159 yeah
Love the way you call goku a “stupid idiot” just sounds so raw and from the heart 😂
Got tiresome and overplayed. Every character calls him that nonstop like default. And then he smiles and is good with it.
@@slickchick5811 It's really dissapointing ong
@@slickchick5811 More like Goku's just bottling up his soul of wrath and trying not to drop those f-bombs while making apple turnovers out of those pisswagon hecklers with nunchucks he keeps in his back pocket!
I agree, super felt so unenjoyable because of these reasons. The best part was UI it felt like there was SOME progression for his talent that was beyond a stronger punch
Yeah but now in the manga ui is just a stronger punch. It's gotten nerfed hard it it just feels like another form now so sad.
@@maximusmarquez5660 that's true but in the moro arc it makes sense since in the t.o.p Jirin was meant to show Goku what he could become of he only focuses on strength, this is followed by moro. Say what you will about the super manga but something the moro arc did was show that Goku's activation of ultra instinct was something done out of nessessity, he then learns about not only how to access ultra instinct but also a sense of justice thanks to meirus that allows Goku to process as a character, this also works because of what moro is (being a sort of huge megamix of literally every villian).
@@IceyBro136 Yeah I know, and I know he camt stay on top forever but he literally gets rag dolled by gas their entire fight, he reaches a new level of ui, then gets rag dolled again. He goes into mui like its just the new form and then he losses badly. It just hard to look at.
@@maximusmarquez5660 we don't talk about the granola arc, if anything it's only going to be remembered for black freeza showing up and the end and bodying literally everyone
@@IceyBro136 It's sad to see, just wish to be the strongest and boom UI equals dog. Frieza has ultimate plot armor, I bet vegito or Gogeta is about to get dogged by frieza.
Cell and Buu saga Goku felt so REAL, like those moments where right before a fight he would turn to his teammates and just realistically talk with them were amazing, like that one scene when they were fighting Kid Buu, Goku turned to a newly revived Vegeta and said "You died once, if anything happens to you now you wont exist anymore. There will be nothing I can do to bring you back. Stay alive, Ok?" It used to really put pressure on you as a viewer, it forced that thought of "This could really be the end" into our heads, and got us super invested and immersed into the story. Now, in super the stakes are so much higher than they've ever been in the entire series, but it doesn't FEEL like it at all. Literally a tournament that decides whether the universe gets completely erased felt like I was watching a nickelodeon cartoon. Obviously I know that growing up has a big impact on this, but I can still go back to the Z sagas and FEEL the stakes, even though I know that everything will be fine in the end. Super just doesn't give that feeling
Yo can you help me out a bit do you happen to know the music playing in the intro?
Its was the Frieza saga for me.
It also doesn't help that Super doesn't *have* any stakes.
So far, every threat could be dealt with by the gods of destruction, or worst case scenario, Zeno. Conveniently writing them out of the plot can only go so far. Remember when Majin Buu was an actual threat to the universe - including Otherworld?
@@Arbron I can't really say that there HASN'T been stakes, but the stakes just never felt real. At no moment in the TOP did I ever even consider any concept of Universe 7 Losing
You speak facts
"He was never meant to be super intelligent"
Let me remind You, this is the same guy that performed a PERFECT Kamehameha mere seconds after seeing it used for the first time.
combat intelligence vs social intelligence.
Also he’s a fkn alien tho
I mean that was just because he was a saiyan he’s naturally more adept at ki control than humans
@@TheDarkMaster312 what the beetlejizz is social intelligence?! It sounds like some pointless drivel from buzzfeed.
@Seijin 442 Social skills, street smarts
Goku in Z:I am a warrior pure of heart awakened by rage! I am the legendary Super Saiyan Son Goku!
Goku in GT:When you go around hurting others you can expect that hurt to return to you someday
Goku in Super:Hey Jiren you look strong how about a fight?
That was when he still had Saiyan genes and some pride and showed it,he was balanced back then but now he's nowhere near balanced and it's like they've stripped him of his Saiyan side 😭
Albert, I think you just encapsulated the entire problem in just a few sentences. Well done sir!
@@austin31697 kind of the opposite, it seems like the only character trait Goku has left is 'Saiyan Battle Lust', Goku no longer seems to have the mind of a mature martial artist, or even a human heart anymore, just 'fight fight fight'.
GT Goku sound like in English dub though.
Goku in Superhero: How can you get stronger by just sitting around all day??
Goku in the whole of z: *Meditates*
In Z, the other characters could confidently put their faith in Goku to save the Earth.
In Super, I swear that they can’t trust him to be alone in a room for five minutes.
"GT may have reverted Goku's body back to a child, but dragon ball super reverted everything else of goku back to a child"
The two Gokus
Shanks Goku:
-Inspirational, like a role model
-Usually serious but can be a little naive and goofy
-Big Brother/Father figure, if Krillin is getting beaten and Goku steps in, he’s gonna go Older brother mode
-Meditates constantly, whis is literally popo v2(but weaker of course)
-Hardened legend cut from marble, has fought so many battles, and is typically a wise 40-50 year old man
Clownku:
-Usually Goofy, can be serious in the manga
-Confused of what Meditation is even though he mediated as a child
-Hasn’t lived those 40-50 years Shanku has lived through
-Doesn’t have his guard up, which is incredibly out of character
-Banged chi chi twice but doesn’t know what a kiss is(I think chi chi raped Clownku)
-Doesn’t ever have an inspirational speech(unless it’s the manga)
What!??!😂🤣
The last part
@@joshuahackshaw7703 the inspirational speeches?
manga dbs goku sucks, only has ui thats good
Finally somebody resonating with what I've been saying for years!
WHIS IS A GLORIFIED BAD COPY OF LORD POPO!
In a recent interview with toriyama he was asked the reason of goku's gi orange color in Z, he said it was to simbolize the orange gi of shaolin monks fighters who train their mind and body to achieve martial arts perfection, so that makes the super hero scene with vegeta even more idiotic, goku is THE specialist in mind and spirit training.
I think the point of the scene was more that Goku was surprised to see Vegeta of all people doing it because he has NEVER been shown doing so before. I don't get why this gets people so mad.
@@xelic1996 the video literally shows why everyone is mad. You muppet
@@thatboyakira4202 Did you watch too much Ocean Dub growing up? How sad, Super doesn't live up to your nostalgia. It must piss you off that so many people love it.
@@Jim-pq9pm sorry, I only Watched Hebert Richards with Wendel Bezerra dubbing the good and old DBZ.
Y'know, because I am a Brazilian with more that Football and Samba in my head.
@@Jim-pq9pm and you thought that I love Super? Or that o dislike it?
"Goodbye role model Goku, until we meet again " wow, that was powerful. Calling Goku a role model, a title you normally reserve for Tien. And the "until we meet again" part references the last episode of GT.
He was never a good role model though. It's a big part of the running joke for how Piccolo is one of the best dad in anime.
@@stanleyhyde8529 Tf do you mean "He was never a good role model"? My guy, did you even watch the mf video? Or are you stuck with that mindset that Goku isnt a good father because...
@@mudafucca4420 they clearly are, was clearly one of the ones defending Goku's latest clown move... So glad I didn't pay to watch that 🗑️🗑️🗑️🗑️....
@@stanleyhyde8529 Team Four Star fool spotted. Guess Gohans a shitty dad since Piccolo has to play nanny for Pan now doesnt he?
Anyone know the intro song that's playing?
after becoming super Saiyan, Goku definitely felt Stoic, Mature, a roll model to aspire to...
DB Super just feels like a man child.
Yo dude you happen to know the song in the intro?
@@kris7115 no but I know it's from one of the games.
@@DICEBOY22 thx anyway
I just make the excuse that he getting old.
Naruto :I'm the most damaged character
DBs goku: same
Finally it's been addressed! This was one of the main reasons in Super that bothered me so much. Goku and Ryu from Street Fighter were always my favorite characters because they are experienced fighters who long for a good fight and improving themselves to become stronger and grow as fighters. Goku being stupid in Super REALLY rubbed me the wrong way because that's not his character.
... finnaly addressed? This is the exact same thing everyone has said, nothing is new rofl
They thought ppl would like him if they made him as dumb as unserious luffy
The only reason we like him is because of how awesome he was in Z.
In super, he is just an obnoxious one dimensional fool who only cares about getting excited from fighting. He is a joke, a sad joke.
goku from dbz is my favourite character in any kind of franchise
To say that Goku is only liked because of the way he was portrayed in Z is underselling him, I feel. He was always a likeable character due to his good heart and goofy, laid back nature to counterbalance his love of fighting and becoming stronger, and that Goku that was established in the original Dragon Ball is the basis for who is. It's just that Z built upon that by making him a better version of himself while still keeping him in line with who he was originally established to be; in other words, he was at his peak in Z, and it made him a more fleshed out character as a result. I won't deny that Z is popular, but I don't think it's fair to say that's the main reason why people like him, since if his character wasn't so well received, the original series would probably not have gotten a sequel to begin with
@@matthewkuscienko4616 Yes, you are absolutely right. I should have said the way he was in both DB and Z.
From Confliction to Addiction
Z Goku is more than just awesome
I agree 100% about TFS and the way fans perceive Goku. It pisses me off when important details get overlooked because of muh memes.
So
Why?
Tfs goku was just meme version
@@fuckingking6796 yes but there are some stupid people who literally thinks it's canon and that's how Goku actually is
Tfs Goku was fine because it was abridged but when they made him even dumber and shoved it into super
@@ellisp276 yeah bro
And people watch abridged and thinks Goku was always stupid
Evne in Z which is complete lie 🤥
@@uvr4402 to be frank toei watch too much of it
This is why toriyama wanted to end the series early on but after being convinced to continue, he knew this would happen to goku and tried to make others like gohan and gotens into the main characters but people never liked those ideas so he was forced to keep working on goku even though there wasn't much progress or drama that could be used anymore
Wrong. Toriyama brought back Goku because he felt like Gohan wasn't made for the role of being the main protagonist of Dragon Ball. So he brought Goku back and ended the series with the Goku flying off with Oob.
Everything afterwards is just DLC for his Manga.
@@MereMere but he still considered making gohan the main protagonist that's why he defeated cell. Even if he never went through with it, he still tried or thought of trying to continue the series with gohan as the lead
@@MereMere nah dude wasn’t it cuz the fans attacked the man for killing goku off? Lol
@@b__w_4565 The fans never attacked him. That's just stuff the fans come up with to cope with the fact that Goku retook his place as the main character by the end of the arc.
@@mellowmayelo Yeah and he changed his mind eventually. It's the modern material of Dragon Ball that ruined Goku's character.
All I can say is thanks for this, being a voice in the community that actually keeps it real. Dragonball has fallen so far from what it was and you're labeled a hater when you try to voice criticism.
A Master Martial Artist who have trained his mind, body and spirit to their peak ended up becoming a clown who doesn't even know what meditation is anymore. Shame.
The Goku I know is Number 1.
if you read the manga, specially the first half, before Piccolo Jr., most of the training he did is now being repurposed in Super, this is very evident when he meets Mr. Popo for the first time, where he learns how to move without wasting stamina, or even that there's always someone stronger than you, and how to keep your heart tranquil. By the way, that fight was even recycled for the match between Goku and Hit, which was also about conserving stamina and keep it cool as much as possible and study the enemy.
On that note Ultra Instinct is so not new its literally just the Turtle Hermit style from all the way back in the 21th Tournament.
It already became kind of apparent when we got the third way to unleashed hidden potential in the Boo arc that Toriyama was running out of new martial arts troupes but Super is the worst with recycling old lesions and selling them as new.
@@rynobehnke8289 Super it's mostly done through meetings and feedbacks from various conferences, it's not really Toriyama's story, even this form was not pitched by Toriyama, so it's no surprised that it's almost entirely recycled.
@@diddly-squat9332 Well given that Toriyama started the recycle Popo's and Muten Roshi's lessons stuff when he wrote Resurrection F (which as far as I know he was still pretty highly invested in) and so Toei thought they could just get away with also just recycling old ideas.
But really the way Super recycles lesson from the first half of the Manga is even more blatant than the z era movies which based them self highly on what was currently important in the main series.
Ultra instinct is not in og dragonball
@@Jim-pq9pm We're talking about the trainings and lessons, of course UI is not in Dragon Ball
If they put Goku in his End Of Z gi when Super returns and he acts like a rookie again I might turn Super Saiyan. That gi should represent becoming a Martial Arts Master. Like he is in GT. 👊
Definitely, it symbolised Goku who is at full mind, body and spirit. The Orange always portrayed like he still had a few things to learn.
Even in GT he had to learn thing's though Boruto had the right idea and in giving the spotlight to another character that has to learn like Boruto.
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 As far as his fighting technique, Goku never learned anything in GT. He unlocked a new transformation, but that’s got nothing to do with what we are talking about.
@@zenkairanger Saiyan scholar said few things to learn in his last sentence so what are you talking about? Goku still had more room to grow so my point still stands.
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 Yes. He said while he was wearing his orange gi he still had a few things to learn. You just said the exact same thing we have been saying. When he puts on the blue gi he’s a master. He doesn’t learn anything in GT. He just unlocks Super Saiyan 4. I think you are confused pal, we are talking about Goku as a martial artist. What does he learn in GT about fighting other than going Super Saiyan 4? If you can answer me that then we can get a discussion going.
They basically turned Goku into Homer Simpson from the Frank Grimes episode. It's really weird that they made meditation a foreign concept to Goku despite the fact that he has done combat meditation training with Krillin since the beginning
I completely agree, actually Goku's change in DBS left me thinking "What the hell!!!". But then I came to the conclusion that Akira at this point and for a long time now, he's not interested in DB but in the royalties TOEI gives him for selling the product under the "this is canon" seal (something the Japanese do take into account when it comes to a series).
It's like the super sayain God ritual scarmbbled Goku's Brain. Now he a power hungry meathead😹
He's always been like that the dub made him seem more like the stereotype anime hero
@@toastertarts2990 typical response from a someone who probably hasn't watched the whole series dub and sub...goku numerous times in OG and Z clearly stated his motives for sifferent situations weren't for just a good fight. In fact most of the major antagonists in each of the old series goku fought for revenge fallen people, his friends, or to protect the innocent...do better
This has to be the best explanation for him becoming so dumb lmao.
@@brandonsmart4192 Goku spares Vegeta for a future rematch and so he can use him to get stronger.
Goku spares Frieza purely based off ego and nothing else then calls him a fool for trying to kill him anyway.
Goku doesn't kill Fat Buu even though he could because the fighters on earth had it covered in his opinion and then later on he decides to wish for Buu to get reincarnated so he can have a sparing partner in the future.
I'm not saying he's a bad person but the man's really selfish
@@brandonsmart4192 and cmon bro "typical response from someone who probably hasn't watched the whole series dub and sub" go touch grass
You know, what's funny to me is that one of the reasons I liked Ultra Instinct so much in the anime, is that Goku SHUT HIS DOWN MOUTH while fighting in that state. No goofing around, no excitation about fighting, none of that Stupid Super Goku shtick.
Instead we got a serious face, close to no dialogue and him trying to get the job done as best he could.
Now the sad thing, it's just a resemblance of Z Goku not the actual one resurfacing, the anime never goes out of its way to show he's in a "serious mindset" except for that one instance when Jiren makes the frankly stupid move to try and hurt his friends (move that should have gotten him erased if you ask me but whatever) and Goku gets mad for a second, so all of what I mentioned above is more about looks than real substance. But I take what I can get at this point, anything is better than Stupid Super Goku.
You have a point
Agreed. Skill alone should have embarrassed Caulifla, Kale and a number of others. It is reasonable as to why Vegeta can shine with him. But everyone else not on his level will not be able to overcome this guy - if he's the version from Dragonball Z during both Cell and Kid Buu battle. He shoud be as sharp as Sasuke in battle at this point. Maybe even more.
You’re on to something
Against those two it was skill
the “skill” these days are just who can punch the fastest? and who can fire lasers the biggest while screaming your lung out? martial arts master my foot.
Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z/Dragon Ball Kai, and Dragon Ball GT: Son Goku
Dragon Ball Super: Son Clownku
Yeah
Anyone know the music playing in the intro?
OG DB Goku: A Young, Naive, Goofy Child who’s new to the world and exploring new adventures.
Z Goku: An Serious and Heroic Man that protects the innocent, inspires other and is the hope of the universe.
GT Goku: an Gentle Wise Elder who cares about his family and friends and finally ends his journey.
Super Goku: A Stupid Idiot that only cares about his own selfish ambitions and desires even if he meant harming those he loves and cares about.
That one of the things that gt did right. Making goku act like a adult and a veteran. Instead of making him acting like a kid. yes he is a kid in biological sense but mentally as a adult.
Yeah
? He's a full grown man
@@slickchick5811 have you seen gt? goku get turned into a kid.
In some ways it's like the Ash's Pikachu syndrome. After a point Pikachu gets nerfed because he becomes too powerful. Except in Gokus case he just gets nerfed in character development.
Remember when they came up with explanations for ashs pikachu being nerfed like it's energy was drained to a degree pikachu got sick. It is one of the only good things black and white sagas did right was giving a explanation to pikachu not having his electricity if only the writers remembered pikachu using other moves has done damage to legendaries
OG DB goku is an lovable and funny kid, Z Goku a Serious and Heroic Man and GT is a Wise and Generous Grandfather.
Super dropped this man’s soul I swear…
13:42 I can never get enough of this.
16:07
17:04
19:23
lmfao
Goku was a fighting genius. He defeated Cell, but didn't know he needed to destroy his legs, and if he had known there would be no SS2. That instant transmission kamehameha was EPIC.
He doesn't feel the same in the clips I've seen.
Goku was always silly and lighthearted, but never unintelligent. He wasn’t stupid, he just didn’t have experience with other people and so he was ignorant about certain social things and a country bumpkin. But he always learned quickly and was able to adapt. With the start of Z and Goku being an adult and a father, there was a consistent growth for him. He could still be lighthearted and maybe say ditzy things, but he’d get serious when he needed to be. He was one of the smartest fighters in the show. His portrayal in Super honestly feels like the writers thought that jokes about him being dumb was how we actually thought his character was, and so they just wrote him as a complete idiot. I swear, sometimes he’s worse than DBZA Goku in terms of his idiocy
Yeah that’s true
At least one is suppose to be a parody and intentionally made goku dumb for comedy sake, instead of thinking that was his actual character.
I grew up with dragon ball Z and GT and the goku I knew was way better version of him than super goku I totally agreed with every thing you said in this video. But to be honest toriyama should have ended z with his original ending where goku was training uub. you could see that their was no more story to tell, we all know that the buu saga had some bad writing that's why he should've ended dragon ballz right then and there R.I.P to the goku I grow up with and loved🥺🥺😢
Man you’re so right about teamfourstar being blamed like dude it was just for fun. I seen people blaming them instead of the fan base and toei who decided to maybe do that to match them because of all the views the abridged videos were bringing. I love watching Z and seeing a mature yet goofy goku not like super where he’s a ducking child
I 100% believe that they saw how popular and funny Goku was in DBZA and they went with it and thought yes this is better.
ANNNND you've just basically said that 😅😅😅
@@captainbeard22 😂
Sometimes I think about how wonderful Super could have been if everyone didn't get Flanderized to hell and it just focused on learning "god ki", everyones new family life after the Buu saga, the tournament of power which was actually pretty interesting, training the new Saiyans, Future Future Trunks's stuff which was also pretty interesting and didn't absolutely destroy the plot(looking at you Frieza), kept the characters' personalities at that time so Vegeta wasn't aggressive to Goku anymore, Goku was still wise-ish and calm, and everyone else had personality still.
Goku always was a very smart martial artist, he could have been clueless in some stuff and a very naive person oin specific times for comedic effect, but as a martial artist Goku was always a PRO no matter what version, this is not a element that the English dub created and was missing in the Japanese original or the manga or the Latin American version (The one I grow up that was pretty faithful in how the portrait the Characters).....in all these versions Goku was a master level of strategist when it comes to Martial arts, manage to figure it out opponents and improvise tactics against even stronger foes than even himself. Its sad what Super did to him, no matter what other version of dub you watched of the OG Dragon Ball, DBZ and DBGT, Goku always was a smart guy in combat and took things very seriously.
This was a outstanding video I wanted to cry at the end it's truly a shame where Goku has ended up I think it's me having to cope with the fact he's really gone so I will say goodbye as well an hopefully we'll meet again.🥲👏👏
Boruto had the right idea with naruto's character instead of butchering his character they made him more mature and a mentor and role model for the next gen unlike Goku.
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 True but they traded his power for wisdom an we are just supposed to be ok with it nobody wants to see Naruto the man we followed all our life's a man who's struggled time after time be pushed aside as nothing but constant reminder that hey Naruto's here it's just as bad
@@kylonbell123 Nah it isn't as bad because Naruto is still here and his wisdom is being passed down to the next generation unlike Goku in DB, who wants to see the same old stuff over and over again from the same character who doesn't change or develop? Naruto changed in the Boruto series he's less erratic and much wiser as he's responsible for the entire village and ninja world, Goku has no responsibility he's just "I wanna fight strong guys" especially in Super.
@@kylonbell123 Not everything is about Power and Strength , canonically it makes sense due to the time of peace between Toneri and present day boruto era. Gohan fans have the same problem as well
Anyone know the music playing in the intro?
This is so accurate. As a lifelong Goku fan it’s a disgrace to the character and OG fans of the series.
No, it's not actually. You are an english fan, you've probably never even watched the OG series
@@Jim-pq9pm no he still feels like goku in the Japanese dub of dbz anime too , even in the db manga, u sre the one misremembering here.
@@madhursaxena2645 No I watch it all the time, and own the manga. Goku is no different.
@@Jim-pq9pm then maybe u are the best one here to tell me why am I feeling it's not the same goku , what has changed?? , is it the humor through which we are shown goku's naviety or what.
@@madhursaxena2645 There's some bad episodes and moments, but overall he's always been carefree and goofy and ignorant. Sure Super takes it too far sometimes, in those moments I would agree with you, but like I said, generally he's the same
You're Clownku impression was hilarious even though no cap Goku would have been like that about cell in super 💀
9:29 I have not watched Super but i have seen the Broly and Superhero movie and watching this scene made me very confused. It's mostly because when i was watching the Cell saga i interprated the whole point of SSJ2 being the main cast learning this exact lesson. Everyone knew you needed something stronger than super sayian to defeat Cell and they were smart enough to figure out there is probably an SSJ 2. And this is where my fav scene from both DB and DBZ shows up: Perfect Cell has fought most of the fighters and then Trunks appears thinking he has "cracked the code to ssj2" by buffing up his muscles but because of that, he was too heavy to properly fight so he gets beaten up by Cell. So Cell (like the badass that he is) mocks him for his way of fighting by buffing up his muscles himself and being able to properly move unlike Trunks. Then he goes back to his regular body form and just leaves while announcing on TV hours later that he is making the Cell Games. Nowadays Gohan's ssj 2 tranformation is mostly related to 90s kids saying "this is where Gohan was PEAK" and so on but to moreso represented how nobody except their own dad believed in him and he finally achieved what everyone was trying to do only because he found out who he is and just letting it all go. It was because of Goku that SSJ2 exists but in a spiritual way. Passing what he learned as a kid and adult to Gohan and help him achieve his own moment of power. I know nobody is gonna reads this because most of the time my comments never recieve attention but i just wanted to give my thoughts on the matter
Love this interpretation. There was something special about Gohan’s critical moment, seeing his fathers faith in his abilities.
It almost brought me to tears to know there's other people who loves Goku as much as I do and absolutely despise how they protrayed him in super. Every Dragon Ball fan should have the decency to feel indecent when watching super. I wish I could give you a thousand thumb-ups!!
I'm a new comer of db and I started with the original and go all the way to super and without looking anything up I came to the same disappointment conclusion of super goku
Every body saying gohan got nerved and vegeta never gets a win but this is the biggest issue with dragon ball right now bring back son goku . Who's with me on this
You meant bring back “Z Goku”
I said I would do it yesterday I did I ascended to a *GODDAM GT WARRIOR*
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Good video and you make good points of which I agree. That said we should be fair on one point you made, Goku didn't ask for the losing universes to be erased in the tournament of power, if I remember correctly. All he wanted was to fight with people from other universes. It was the stupid omniking/grandpriest that decided that the losers should be erased so I don't necessarily see that as a flaw of Goku's as you had stated. I just think it shows the evil/cruelty of the "gods" and I agree that it was a foolish writing decision for the story especially given how we all knew that the universes would just get wished back anyways. A better way to write the story, including the erasure of the universes was to make it permanent and show that these gods aren't actually good guys and it could have probably led to the surviving universes trying to build power to get revenge for the erased universes and overthrow the current gods. That's just my opinion anyways.
Gods aren't supposed to be good guys though, specially not the destructor god's by their sole name, they just are.
That's after he's being continuously told by beerus and whis to not do he still did it, even if it worked out it isn't because of goku.
To be honest I was born 5 years before battle of gods. But I can the diffrence stupidity and naivity db to dbgt goku is somebody who you respect and want to be your friend. DB's goku is somebody who easily irritates you by constantly asking simple questions that even a five year old knows in school. That the difference for me
This is why GT Goku was more cooler than Super When Goku and Goku Jr met it was so amazing how he lowkey manipulated Jr But with good intentions I don’t think he would do that he probably says the truth without knowing the consequences because he’s always dumb but in GT he did different he know what’s the dragonball’s capable of and it’s consequences and it’s amazing how he just accepts and respects the dragonball’s wishes, Goku always finds a way to do something ridiculous to scape the dragonball’s bidding and find a way to scape like he always do because his the kind of person who always moves too much but now he just stays for his ideals and the love of his grandpa showed him is so beautiful and relatable that is so simple he probably can become a monster if he like his instincts or just go crazy and be free and destroy everything like cell and his more terrifying because his a unpredictable genius and consequences genius but he doesn’t care about that he only cares the love and the experience and how fragile everything is, his like Superman but better imo and Ngl his the most humanistic person than any of us ever
Goku is definitely the most damaged character in anime because he nearly died a lot times and died a few times as well, but after each battle he became stronger and stronger, and became the strongest protagonist than any other anime's protagonist as well.
@@w1l1 Stay salty.
ChadKu (Goku) > Your favorite anime character.
Cough still weaker than shoutmon x7 superior mode cough cough .
@@cuddlesworthceangal6612 who?
@@therealwhoever a digimon im just being a troll about the Goku > your favorite anime character (he the main partner in digimon xross wars digimon power level are actually quite dumb in cannon alot being 1-C ((complex multiversal)) before X antibody forms)
@@cuddlesworthceangal6612 funny words Magik man but goku go boom
6:45 it’s like the writers couldnt come up with a way to show that even though Goku and vegeta have trained their whole lives whis has lived for so much longer. instead of thinking of a way to do that they regress their skill so whis looks like the angel in comparison. Quite sad honestly. Lazy writing strikes again
when z goku came to fight, you knew he meant business even when he was weaker than an opponent like with raditz or cell he stuck in to the very end and lasted the longest possible with fighters given his level at the point - even in the og manga = he was a hero because even though he wasn't a knock off superman like the dub may intend you to believe he always could tell to fight evil and even when he spared them like with vegeta while the intention was selfish he also admits that villains have the potential for good like piccolo saving his sons life after years of hatred between goku and him - ill miss you goku, thank you for the memories.
Goku let Piccolo live for purely selfish reasons. He was afraid that there was nobody to offer him a challenge. He's the literal reincarnation of a demon. He let Vegeta go because he thought it "would be a waste" meaning a waste of a good fighter, not that he thought he could be a good guy.
@@Jim-pq9pm yes but goklu tells krillin to let vegeta go becuase he could become a good ally like piccolo did
Who the hell at toei hates goku so much. Like lately they have been destroying everything that makes goku, goku. I miss when he was a wise battle hardened warrior. How can the fan base let the writers know we hate this version of goku.
This video is what I have been waiting for... Very good one
Your Goku impression is hilarious and caught me off guard like Goku keeps getting caught off of
The impression I got from Goku giving Vegeta shit was that Goku thought he was doing TOO much mental training and was slacking on his physical training. But maybe I took it the wrong way. Either way you’re right that Goku shouldn’t be downplaying it because he’s used mental training before. The only way I can rationalize it is that he thought Vegeta was overdoing it and was joking around with him to motivate him in some way idk.
Super writing is just not that good tho let’s be honest 😭
Dragon ball as a whole has poor writing
@@buster3041 In what regard? What does that mean?
It had good writing, but you aren't going to get some complex multifaceted characters or plots. It doesn't have to be, its still a gripping story. DBZ is DBZ, HxH, death note, attack on titan etc are different.
@@buster3041 one piece fanboi
I gotta say, your the funniest guy covering this stuff. 😂
4:50 I always find it interesting when people defend Goku causing the ToP to happen by saying Zeno was going to delete all the universes anyway, and Goku actually helped by giving everyone a chance to survive.
The issue with that is Goku didn't even know about that, so why is he given credit for it? Yeah, a nice coincidence, but that's way too convenient to ignore the consequences Goku's neverending want for battle.
To be fair, if you are going to say "he didn't know" I will counter that he didn't know they would try to destroy it anyways. It is not like Goku ever said anything like "oh, and if any universe's team is disqualified, their entire universe should be erased!". If anything, I always found this arc to be evidence that the current gods (SPECIALLY, but restricted to, ZENO) are just horrible and NEED. TO. GO. There is no world in which straight up deleting the universes is justifiable. The only universe erasure that I find somewhat justifiable is the anime future Trunks one, and that is only because:
1. That universe was already pretty much dead (it is implied that Zamasu left Earth for last, so every other planet should already be dead by the time Trunks travels to the past).
2. On the anime, they did that thing of Zamasu kinda becoming one with the uniserve itself and, while that is kinda of stupid, it does justify destroying the universe itself if only to stop Zamasu's disease to spread even further.
That's how it always is with goku. He makes a dumb or selfish choice, gets punished, then his dumb choice is shown to be the right one as it leads to a positive outcome. Thus making his punishment pointless.
It's like that so we don't hate him. Stupid writing choice.
Toei tried to put Luffy's personality into Goku in the anime and it was definitely Toei's worst decision.
In the manga, at the beginning, with how advanced the anime was, things happened very quickly. but from the arc of Moro, it is noted that Goku analyzes his actions even when he gives the zensu bean to Moro, he says that he will take responsibility no matter what happens, just like with Yamcha, Tien, Piccolo and Vegeta, giving him the opportunity to that he thinks things through and doesn't give him the zensu bean just because he wants to fight, and don't even mention how well managed Granola the survivor's arc was.
Bro, Master Roshi taught Goku how important relaxing and meditation was to training when he was a child. Its one of my favorite Roshi scenes. One of his first lessons from his first official master. Super really demolished Goku. Its a shame Toriyama cant remember his characters.
I haven't watched the amine at all, or any for that matter but I have seen stuff on the Internet about this guy and he's right. Goku has gone form the master to the apprentice and yes he's had some great moments in super, like the "I won't let you destroy my world" part or when he found out what happened to his family VIA black. If anything Vegeta is Goku now as he's grown as an character, meanwhile Goku is like "oh I was meant to do this? I didn't know that was training" like my guy you did everything as a kid
Dub or not goku in the saiyan saga alone felt developed and grown to maturity.
The guy felt like he outgrown his old naive childishness. Toriyama seems to forgot all of it. His super version seems like the abridge version of him.
Vegeta should be the one whos physical and goku the mental. Seeing thats the whole point of the saiyan saga. Nappa and vegeta was strong in brute force but due to different techniques by the z warriors even though they are weaker in terms of power thet still gave them a run for their money.
Goku using the kaioken and spirit ball to defeat vegeta.
In the namek saga we saw vegeta learning from his experience on earth and actually gained an advantage against freeza's minions by using the techniques he picked up in earth like hiding his power and sensing energy.
Vegeta should be the one struggling how to overcome enemies with not just brute force alone.
By GT we see a very different vegeta he was more calmer more rational and goku as despite being in a child form you'd still see that he uses that child body to taunt his opponents even copying his enemies moves just to push their buttons.
Their fight against ice and shu shenlong where he was more serious because things have escalated far beyond what they could handle. He didnt mock around and tested his powers and endanger the risk of losing.
While in the ToP he was fucking about trying to force his this ultra instinct. Like he didn't learned what happened during the cell saga when gohan failed the first time and he actually regretted that he ever involved his kid.
Great video. Agree with everything 100%. It's like I had all this in my head watching DB Super but could never put into words or explain it in such detail to other people.
I truly do love Goku in the Goku Black arc and how he shows his experience, but I also love when he fought Hit both times and showed how experienced he was in battle then as well.
Yeah
Same
Goku entrance and entire fight versus the Ginyu force was pure badassary
You been speaking my hearts tears man. They are ruining our beloved character. For money! It's not long before they get to the end of Z and I just hope to Kami they get it right.
17:50 I love how the Goku voice gets deeper and raspier the more he reads. Really turned into the narrator there.
I completely agree about that resest button on experience. Goku already trained with several gods before Super, and he was treated with respect in terms of battle sense. Now in Super, he’s relearning things that he already learned way back in Dragonball. At this point Gokus senses in Ssblue should’ve been Jiren level if they didn’t nerf his battle experience. There really was no need for Ssblue or god. They were already strong enough.
You have a point
Do any of you happen to know the music playing in the intro?
@@kris7115its most likely a bt3 soundtrack or bt2
@nopeycraft74 It's Called Lost Courage
Quick Note: Goku didn't ask for the universe to be erase. He just wanted a tournament
Yeah that’s true
That was the purpose of making Gohan the main character. Goku’s maturation peaked at the end of Cell saga which was the perfect time to pass the torch to Gohan but AT changed his mind and kept it as Goku that’s why it had to end after Buu. There was no room for growth of the main character.
GT was a victory lap for the franchise.
Like AT said super is a CASUAL continuation. It’s supposed to be light and goofy so Goku as the main character has to be an idiot
"Light continuation". Sorry but I don't believe that. They wouldn't have a serious storyline like wiping out entire universes and having the main characters take part of that process ending the lives of trillions of innocents. They attempted a dark storyline but failed.
They wouldn't have written a storyline where evil Goku kills his wife in another universe if they weren't trying to be serious.
They wouldn't have had a mature Granolah arc in which someone victimized by Saiyans wanted revenge against the same race.
Character growth doesn't peak. It is just an excuse. Superman has similarities but has been around for almost 100 years and they're still doing new storylines. There's now multiple universes. Plenty of potential ideas.
Naruto :I'm the most damaged character
DBs goku: same
Take a look at the events where Goku was 'mature'. It was a life to world threating event with no other option but to buckle up and focus on the crisis. In DBZ he was pressed to be the one to find the solution, have a way to end the threat, he had to be the strongest, he had to be in crisis mode and handle the situation.... by the time of the Cell Games he found that Gohan had the potential to surpass him and made the push to make it happen. It was his turning point imo.
After word he started down a path of teaching and passing on insight and knowledge to others to assist in saving the day. He no longer had to be the only one to finish it. Buu Saga reflected his peaked growth, the constant strain of having to be that guy. By the end of the Buu fight he was no longer the only one that could save the world, galaxy, universe.
In super, Goku was given time to relax, the heal the mental strain and be himself again... .closer to his teenage years in attitude with a touch of growth to his normal self. He gave it his all against Beerus and came up short and was given mercy and opportunity. His goal of getting stronger to get stronger and challenge stronger opponents became cemented as things would just work out.
Goku may have regressed but he regressed into being able to be himself. The weight is lifted off him. Vegeta is on par with him, Beerus and Whis help them train and improve further from them training on their own. A gaggle of Gods to back him up when things get dire, Dragonballs a plenty for what ever situation (Earth & Namek).... he doesn't need or have the stress anymore.
He has grown in other ways than maturity. His fighting style has matured by utilizing martial techniques, he assesses his opponents and is either testing himself or teaching others to bring out their potential (Goku Black aside but what can you do against immortality?). No longer is he the sole savior, he can let others shine.
Character growth does peak. Superman is a perfect example for this. How many times has the timeline been reset? How many times have they introduced different problems or situations for him to grow in different ways from the reset? The end of Superman (future timeline) usually ends up having him be cold, out of touch, go live in the sun for a bit, or evil. Dragonball super is a continuation, not a reset to a time line or alternate universe. You can have plenty of mature arcs within a light continuation but remember Goku is no longer the main focus and there is a huge detachment.
Goku was never stupid or dumb. Goofy and Naive yeah but he was never an idiot.
This is why I like GT a little more than Super, It feels like GT Goku is the peak Goku for me than Goku in Super.
FACTS!! TBH I said this before but I consider Goku from his manga release in 1994 to Dragon Ball Z's Anime end in 1996 different characters than 2013 and on Goku. Theres so many little things that add up and make me side eye and re-read the original manga and be like "why is Goku acting like this when hes shown he knows this" I know Toriyama is forgetful person but Come on. Loved the Video!
Toriyama doesn't actually write the manga or the anime he just gives them that outline for the people who work on the anime and the manga and they write what they want and stuff if Toriyama actually wrote super and Drew it then it would totally be better
And Super fanboys/girls have the nerve to trash on GT Goku, which was the best version of Goku in my opinion in terms of skills, technique, knowledge, fighting experience, power etc.
Leagues better than Super Goku.
You have a point
So true. Hopefully they fix him when the anime comes back next year. Also this video was serious and funny. Keep uo the work
Yeah that’s true
Hell yeah... Preach! I definitely Agree
Who f'ckin wrote Goku's script? 🤦🏻♂️
I really think they should have used broly for the dumb questions, he's literally the new guy
Goku is supposed to be a goofball who fights for sport, but takes it very, very seriously when needed, to the point where he rarely made obvious mistakes, assuming he made any. thats how he was usually portrayed in DBZ. during his fight with Raditz, he let go of his tail because he always believed in some decency in people, that they can change for the better. but when they betray that faith in them afterwards, he doesnt give third chances. which is why he decided it was right to try to kill Raditz at that point.
he did the same with Vegeta and even Freiza, though only Vegeta actually took his second chance when it was offered.
even him giving Cell a senzu bean was understandable based on his general philosophy of wanting a fair fight. Gohan wasnt injured yet, so Goku wanted cell to be in top form when facing a fighter like Gohan in his own top form. but in Super, him giving cell a senzu bean would probably have been played off as him fumbling the bean and accidentally tossing it towards cell and then laughing like an idiot or something
You are right
To be honest I feel like
King Piccolo Arc Kid Goku had more Development/Maturity as a Fighter
than DBS Goku
You hit the nail on the head! I’ve been saying this for years now. I don’t normally comment on videos but this video should be sent to the writers of the the anime. Great analysis, DBZ Goku is my favorite character of all time. I’m glad to see such a quality video essay expressing such gratitude towards his character. Thank you!
I may have not grown up back then during that time,but I actually like Z Goku More Than Super Goku,they're both a bit more different
Cell Saga Goku is the him at his best character wise you see how cocky he can be but just how far seeing he can be, knowing the next step beyond super Saiyan, seeing Gohan s potential, tempting Vegeta to become stronger and ultimately giving his life a second time to defend not only earth but his son. Watching him go from a 12 year old boy to this very unique adult. He was a grown man, but still had his child like nature really balanced him as a man. Did they forget that mental training is how he got Gohan to reach super Saiyan. Hell he managed mind, body and soul training when he met Mr. Popo.
Yeah it was
Bro we need to reach out to the writers about all these problems as dragon ball fans
The most ironic part is that GT Goku, as a kid, seems infinitely more mature than Super Goku. Sure, canonicity aside, GT is supposed to take place 5 years after End of Z and even more than Super but still, GT actually got Goku's character right. He was super goofy and childlike but he got serious when he had to. He didn't need that many flashy transformations like SSJ God, Blue or Ultra Instinct, neither he relied on just bute strenght or power alone, he used what he had and made it work, he adapted himself to any situation and when he couldn't win he got back up and learned. And SSJ4, even though it was a new form, it worked well within the narrative and even had some emotional weight when it appeared. He cared about people, especially Pan, that's something Goku doesn't do in Super. Aside from Black killing ChiChi and Goten, he stopped caring about literally eveyone to the point of having his fighting obsession be his most prominent trait, beside his stupidity. And plus, even when GT Goku was being goofy, it wasn't to the point of being insufferable.
anyone think that the people who make current Dragon Ball haven't seen the originals in years and just watch tfs to catch up? because Goku in Super acts way more like tfs Goku than Z Goku.
I'm coping so hard...that I believe that Goku in the Super Hero movie was caught off guard that Vegeta even meditates in the 1st place since he never did it before...instead of having Goku be a Dum@55...
The amount of screaming it took to use ssj3 in the buu saga probably blocked the oxygen to his brain by a significant amount, especially since he was screaming for that long. Maybe thats why he’s so dumb in Super.
…
The voice you made for dbs goku is beautiful man
2:02 Yeah, about the whole kissing thing.
I think DBS is not canon because what about when Old Kai wanted Goku to get a girl to kiss him?
What about the simple fact that Goku got married which involves kissing the bride.
Just based on this, I think DBS takes place after a prequel that we don't yet have,........a past that never was.
Not a true sequel series to Z.
There's too many people who 1) Love the Abridged Series and treat it as canon. 2) Love Vegeta so much and want him to be in the spotlight, even if at the cost of Goku's character.
Newer Dragon Ball likes to take inspiration from fanmade stuff that the writers & editors liked. The Tournament of Power was inspired from some multiverse tournament fan comic. Dragon Ball AF Fanfic inspired the Goku Black Saga, the Super Saiyan God Ritual, & likely the design of Ultra Instinct as well as Broly returning as a good guy. Goku's dumbing down probably took inspiration from DBZ Abridged, although it was never as bad as you claim. Just canonizing that Goku didn't understand Pregnancy or Romance (to be fair Akira Toriyama admitted to not being good at writing romance) I have to rewatch Super, although it never seemed that much of a character assassination. Granted much of Super is Slice of Life when they aren't dealing with god stuff & both Saiyans still have a lot to learn in that area.
If you think Goku had it bad, Sonic had it so much worse during the 2010s just saiyan. Considering the Slice of Life style of Dragon Ball Super I find it surprising we didn't get an episode where Goku takes his family on vacation to King Kai's Planet only to learn they usually vacation at Kame House. Goku & Vegeta were so busy training during the new movie & weren't actually the focus. The line with Goku being confused by Vegeta's Meditation Training probably is more to highlight their differences with Goku preferring to spar & work out in heavy gravity with plenty of weights to where he doesn't realize how different Vegeta is from what I remember. I'm sure by the time of the Uub Saga Goku will feel like he's ready to be a somewhat competent teacher.
Goku in Z was my idol. People keep saying his dumb and he was always this way in Z. This is completely untrue.
Z Goku is not dumb he was smart and mature and he gained wisdom as the series went on especially by the Cell saga.
Kami taught him the appreciation for life. This is why he tried to spare his enemies even when Kid Goku use to body his enemies in the past.
Fighting Frieza taught Goku that not everyone can be redeemed. As he left Frieza for dead on Namek and killed him in Trunks timeline.
Goku in super doesn’t know what a kiss is yet in Z he has two children and he was perfectly fine whoring out Videl and Bulma to Old Kai.
The Goku in Z knows he won’t be around forever that’s why he wanted Gohan, Goten and Trunks to become strong.
Even GT Goku is wise beyond his years and he was in a child body.
Super Goku is a just a joke
Bro even Gohan an Krillin used Mental Training during Namek bruh that really ruined my day just wow.😭 Even Frieza told about it Goku he made it a point to say it after he left his cocoon RIP continuity.
im glad this video is addressing goku getting cucked in writting rather than being a person that struggles somehow Cause that role belongs to Guts
It would be cool if someone made a what if Goku was like z Goku in super
Tell masakox that and he might
@@kakogamer8792 ok 👍
YES
In DB, Z and GT Goku even when facing much stronger opponents.. he always eventually outsmarted them and found a way to beat them. In Super, he has no fighting intelligence. Constantly outsmarted
Is it wrong that I like heroic Goku more than the original portrayal?
Nope
No
@@aavila1206 you have a point
No, people think Goku becomes a superman clone when he gets heroic but that's not it, you don't need to be a symbol of peace in order to be heroic, that's what makes Goku a great character back in dbz, he has an extreme desire of feeling the thrill of a battle but he also knows what is in danger.
Unlike superman, Heroic Goku still has a desire for battle.
the biggest gift this video gave us was, the background music....
In all fairness Whis has eons, billions of years of experience so by comparison Goku and Vegeta are rookies. But against other characters who are as old as them or younger there really isn't any excuse. Even in the original Japanese version Goku was never this stupid or selfish. Yes he loved to fight, train and grow stronger but there was always a sense of growth maturity. He learned from his mistakes and tried to improve. Z Goku after the BS he went through on Namek wouldn't have spared Frieza, nor would Vegeta. Gogeta should have iced him in the Broly movie. The only reason Frieza is alive is because he's a nostalgia grab, because fans dool over him! There are so many villains in DB, DBZ and even DBGT who are much more interesting but everyone seems to rank Frieza as the best Dragon Ball villain ever! F$#% you Raditz was a better villain!
But back on topic; Goku being this stupid is unforgivable, Toriyama knows better but he chose to go down this path because money. Hey I understand, money makes the world run, but he's lost his passion and direction in Dragon Ball and Toyotaro seems to just be going with it instead of stepping up as Toriyama's heir and going "Hey, we took it too far. We should pull it back a bit." He lost his inspiration and it shows, especially in this last arc. There are moments where they definitely tried but they feel so few and far between. They could have done so much more with the plot threads but didn't. Wasted potential; that sums up Super Duper in a nutshell.
If anyone else disagrees with me, fine, don't @ me going "Well Goku was only that way in the dub and Toriyama-Sama said he's supposed to be this way." Shut up Brainy smurf I'm not replying.
Didn't they make a deal with Frieza & he's only still alive as part of that deal they made? Raditz was weak & probably could have been turned into a good guy if given the chance like Vegeta was, I barely even consider him a villain just a way to progress the plot. Would have been interesting if there was a timeline where Raditz replaced Yamcha.
If I had a dollar for each of these fake spam accounts saying that I won something I could buy Twitter.
Really huh