It makes perfect sense. BP is a mechanical mixture. The finer the particles in that mixture the faster and more complete the chemical reaction. More complete equals cleaner. Faster equals, well, faster. Now I’d like to see 72 hour buckthorn or Cottonelle. You’ll start getting relativistic effects as the ball approaches the speed of light. Time to reach escape velocity and low earth orbit.
Yeah… but is it finer? Our esteemed vlog hosts say it’s 3F grind. Are the fines screened out of that? If so the density wouldn’t change… Perhaps the extra milling time is “pounding” more KNO3 into the bamboo particles, regardless of size…? Or am I having a brain fart?
@@Glenfilthie1 Screening (to get 3F powder) comes after pressing into pucks, which itself comes after milling. I think it's crucial for all the ingredients to be in as small particles as possible, because only then they will mix and react well. The largest fraction, be it fuel or oxidiser, will be the limiting factor (as only the surface can react with its counterpart).
Well now that begs the question what would happen if you milled your alder buck thorn & other prior top rated recipes for 72 hours. You know you gotta try it!
Might get past 2000 fps in the standardized test 🤔 Or maybe not. Perhaps the better charcoal sources only have better performance because they break up into smaller particles without extended milling time. It definitely would be interesting…
Jake, your channel is making some large strides in this black powder hobby. "This close" to 100,000, congrats, well deserved. Keep doing these types of experiments, have a great day! Mike.
Now you're going to have to do the same thing with the toilet paper powder and see if there's an improvement. The cottonnail toilet paper is great as is, but if it could be improved by longer milling, that would be very impressive. Great video, as always.
I don't consider it a waste of my time when it doesn't require any action on my part. Milling for 6 hours Vs. 72 is just leaving the mill plugged in longer.
@@luisgarza2036 😂👍 Yeah! Just get the ram from your meat grinder and ram it home. You’ll be fine.🤣 You could open a drive through restaurant named “Funnel and Ram”. Think of the time you could save. Just drive up and ram home a burger. Bring your own funnel.
"Wine that has been aged for 24 hours is good enough!" Those were some remarkable results. I was saying "wow!" to myself too. And congrats on hitting 100k subs!
I'm actually surprised that so many from the pyrotechnic community in those comments skipped over an extremely important piece of context for milling times. In pyro application 4-12 hour milling times are acceptable and even preferred because you can easily reach a threshold where the powder is too fast and will begin to damage components (usually reinforced paper) or create less dramatic effects. " Antique muzzleloading propellant" is created to achieve different goals than pyrotechnic propellant. I have personally tried making pyrotechnics with muzzleloader grade BP and can attest that it burns way too fast for that application. Different tools for different jobs everyone.
I know what you are saying, but at the same time, most of us pyrotechnic guys are boosting our poweder with a stronger mixture of something else. So I feel like better powder would be beneficial. Lift charge is also a major component, where I believe sporting grade powder is a much better option. I started milling my powder at 24 hours for lift.
@@EverythingblackpowderI was going to say the same thing! My guess is that the grain size being much smaller helps with the burn rate. Easier for the flame front to consume something smaller rather than larger. Puts me into the mind of how the Union Pacific experimented with using pulverized coal to power a gas turbine. It didn’t work out because of blade erosion, but it did work. Kind of like a contained dust explosion…..
again we run into the "everyone knows" vs "we've tested it at various mill times and this is what works" . I learned a long time ago to be wary of things "everyone knows". They may even be right for pyrotechnics. The shorter mill time might be perfect for them. But I've been watching your channel for a long time now and I've watched you change your mill times. I knew before I watched what the result was likely to be. Thanks again guys. Now pyrotechnics guys can get with the program..
I completely agree. To give the pyro guys the benefit of the doubt I think the quality of powder that is required for fireworks is not nearly as high as Sporting grade powder
@@Everythingblackpowder I agree Jake, I don't think pyrotechnics are too concerned with how clean or generally how fast the powder is but how much brilliance and puissance it has. Maybe they should try it though, it might just be the cat's meow.
You can theorize all you want but you still have to test the results, I can't think why they would think it's not worth trying to adjust all the variables.
Probably been said already, but 4-6 hours is just fine for fireworks. Its a much lower standard than what you need for this. Having said that, I thought 12-18 hours was enough. Now I'm probably going to throw all of the powder I have back in the ball mill for another couple of days.
Cant remember if i mentioned this before. Your channel has gotten me to break out my smokepoles again! I recently repaired an 1850's DB ten gauge shotgun and have been having alot of fun shooting it!
I have no experience making black powder. With that said, is there a process where you can mix (mill) the ingredients using distilled water (or whatever) in blender as a slurry, pour that onto paper to remove some of the water and then go straight to pucking it?
Totally underrated channel. Been watching you since you had like 30k subs. I find it interesting with such little subs you have many big channels that are subbed and watching you guys. That says something
You and your brother getting excited about a result and saying "Bitching" doesn't get tiring! Gotta love data that doesn't lie. As others have mentioned it would be interesting to see round two of some of the previous powders which didn't perform as good. Also concur with the idea of paper targets for the better performing powders, you need something to step up the game to after-all.
Awesome video, it is crazy at the increase you got. If you don't go through lbs of powder a week then I can see that extra milling time being 100% worth it. It might be interesting to see a batch milled for a whole week to see if there gets to be a point of significantly diminishing gains.
It would be cool to see the results of the other carbon sources with longer mill times. My hypothesis is you may get similar results with things like grass/ straw and cotton balls. It would be interesting to see what Cottonelle Toilet paper does with longer mill times as well. I'm thinking the grain and fiber structure of any of the carbon sources has an influence on velocity.
This , and indeed much of the channel, is an excellent example of good enough vs best. You have put far more effort into your powder research than it is worth, and I hope you continue.
This opens wide the avenue to re-testing the results of every charcoal you have tested thus far. As a working man, I realize the limitations on your time will slow results but it has also given hope to the rest of us as well. This one discovery has brought about a revolution in the understanding of those concerned that has a huge effect, unnoticed in a thousand years. As has always been mentioned, "Patience is it's own reward."
Science! My first few batches of antique muzzleloading propellant were milled for just 4 hours too and didn't perform well (though I was thrilled at the time that it worked at all). One day I decided to mill it longer just to see what happened. I let it go for 12 hours with lead balls. Like you, I found my powder performed better. Next batch I'll have to double it and see what happens.
As DCUPP stated, the use of bp for pyrotechnics is totally different than the use of bp in antique firearms. Pyrotechnicians need a basic grade of bp to create colorful displays in the night sky. Us antique firearm enthusiasts need an excellent grade of bp for our recreation. Immensely enjoyed this video. Thank you!
Seems like the obvious thing they are overlooking is the fact that the end use of ‘Antique Muzzle Loading Propellent’ vs Pyrotechnic Powder is vastly different, where you need clean burning, low fouling, powerful powder with extremely consistent results, theirs needs to go bang/poof/sparkle in the general direction of ‘up’ , out of a tube with far less tight tolerances.
Try experimenting with the actual same batch of chemical mix. Mill the batch for 24 hours, remove 1/2 the batch and continue milling the other half for the extra 48 then finish the process as usual with 2 separate batches mill ed different durations. If it produces the results you have here then your proof is in the milling time. Great videos👍
I think with your comments on how dense the bamboo is compared to other charcoals used, the extra time milling helps in incorporating the ingredients. So, do you now revisit this by milling a batch 48 hours to see if it preforms the same as 72 and 96 hours to see if it now matches Swiss velocities? Also, lets see this "clean" powder in cartridges, 45 colt, Snyder etc.
@@Everythingblackpowder Goex is great for the burst charge, but our lift powder is probably 70% of Goex power and burn. Also very course, courser than FG. Edit: Too fast a lift powder and too tight a fit in the mortar tube is inviting a CATO.
Wondering what would be the result if you re milled Swiss for 72 hours? Can it be done? As it seems to be your benchmark. As always very much enjoy your work - has benefitted me immensely.
I had another thought; in regards to some people having Bamboo powder be dirty and some not, and this might apply to a lot of carbon sources; If the outside layer (bark) is included or not. Tree Bark includes a lot of silicates, and the cambium layer just under it has chlorophyll, and on bamboo, the outer skin has a lot of silica, much like grass(hay) so if someone made charcoal out of *small* bamboo tubes, they would end up with more outer surface than if they used pieces of larger bamboo. I would guess using just the inner part of bamboo would get better results, and staying away from the sapwood and bark on regular wood ought to produce nicer results as well.
Kind of curious if you re-milled Goex what would happen? Now i'm wondering if we're going to get a video titled "I milled this powder for a year and this happened!"
Well it didn't suck again. It actually brings 2 things to mind. 1) It seems that the pyro guys have a much lower standard of quality that they are willing to settle for and still be able to get their job done. 2) I guess we all need to see what happens when Cottenell is milled for 72 hours. Good job Jake on exploring all the possibilities.
What if you took GOEX and milled it for 48 to 72 hours and then compressed it again to see if theres improvement ? That would be a neat test to see what changes it makes.
It makes sense, so long as longer grinds equal smaller particles, which incorporate more completely. I have to wonder if a longer period in the mixing stage would produce similar boosts in performance. Great video, always something new to absorb.
Wonderful! What the pyrotechnicians forget is that shooting a lead ball through a 1/2" tube is a specialist application not comparable to lifting 3-12" shells from a mortar tube. For that, 4-6 hours suffices because you are making a cannon powder, but antique muzzleloading propellants need a bit more, as you've demonstrated. Next stop, i agree with @johndiblasi4803 , is cottonelle for 72 hours to see if you can get it past 1900 and perhaps touch 2000 fps under standard conditions. It would go viral! Alder/Buckthorn might give a greater performance increase though. as they are harder charcoals.
What if it’s not the carbon source that matters but how hard the charcoal is that affects the speed. Which would mean milling longer would be required to get the particle size down to what a shorter mill time would get out of soft charcoal.
Great video guys here's what comes to mind on this one shoot the original 24 hour powder then the 72 hour powder every other shot that will definitely validate the question in milling time.
I usually don't stop milling until it talcum fine at the least. Basically when it gets to the point where it clumps every 15 minutes of mill time. Another soft indicator is when the loose mill dust has an almost metallic sheen when pressed with a spoon and leaves a satin finish on the powder. Kinda hard to describe until you see it in person. I'll also tend to take a batch granulate it and re-mill once it gets to that stage just because of the clumping. At that point you can get around some of the clumping just by sieving the fines off but that's usually unnecessary.
I have a suggestion. You mentioned that bamboo charcoal is very dense, which makes me wonder if you could mill a bunch of bamboo charcoal separately, then mill BP made from it for a shorter time and get the same results. When I first started I bought willow branches that someone cooked, put some in a bag and broke it up with a hammer and milled it by itself. Then I screened it to remove big chunks and milled the dust with KNO3 & sulfur to incorporate it. I realize this suggestion won't save time when making small test batches to test different charcoals but if you settle on bamboo as your go-to fuel it might if it turns out charcoal particle size matters more than incorporation time.
i think everyone who watches your videos can attest that your a pioneer in the black powder development field youve managed to continue where the old timers left off back in the 1890s
I am one of them "pryo"guys and I ALWAYS mill my powder a minimum of 24 hours. Sometimes I'll let it go an extra 12 hours if I'm busy doing other stuff. Everyone who's used my powder has complimented me on it's ignition and burn speed. On one occasion someone tried to convince me I accidently swapped it with flash due to how fast it went up. I tend to make about a 1/2 lbs worth at a time and don't keep more than a pound of home made stuff on hand. I use my powder mostly for cap and ball revolvers or on a rare occasion when someone has needed something for their pan. 4 hours!?! The few people i have met who attempt to correct me on how I make power made similar statements that I was doing it wrong or too long. Two of them were in the elderly category and when pressed it was quickly discovered they actually knew very little about pyro let alone BP. Another person was younger but a bit dim witted - ran into them at a safety course. In the past I mostly made BP rockets although safety issues with launching them has slowed that hobby down. Maybe some day I can find some good land to launch rockets from that wont catch anything on fire. Building and launching BP rockets is a great hobby albeit it's incredibly dangerous around houses or dry climates.
You have something now Jake, how about milling some of your alder buckthorn for the same extended time an seeing what happens - for science and curiosities sake.
I deeply appreciate that you are testing and documenting for all of us for free, and I dont blackpowder anything. Thanks for all the work and effort. What im getting from this is perhaps charcoal density should be an indicator of how long it needs to be milled.
Well done, Jake - great info; much appreciated!! I'd be very curious to see the results of long-milled balsa and Cottonelle powders. Good idea to put "worthy" powders on paper going forward. Thanks for everything you do to make this one of my favorite channels. Keep up the great work!!
Wasn't expecting that...😀Now I wonder if this works for all the charcoals or just the "dense" ones....and does it make them all proportionally cleaner than 24 hour powder? If cottonelle can hit 2000 fps you should have a celebratory tannerite pack to shoot...heh
theoretically it should since black powder is a chemical reaction. The finer the powder the more complete and faster the reaction should be which is why in chemistry most things are either liquids or powders, and even things that are solids are usually broken down or ground with some exceptions. Also since the reaction is more complete there should be less residue which would mean cleaner burning. But i'm sure there is a practical limit and variables
@@sauceless6666 Well, lampblack is about as fine as you can get but absolutely sucks. Conversely "activated" or "puffed" carbon also sucks. Hay bales suck and I'd think that also would be very fine. Graphite has a "scale" type structure which is why it makes a good lubricant but I'm fairly certain it would suck. I've been thinking about carbon molecule structures and how they might relate but there's a lot of them...heh. We need some buckyballs or nanotubes. Maybe when I figure it out I'll get a nobel prize or something....😉
As someone who's interested in self-priming muskets, I have a few questions about self-priming for the muskets: 1) People tend to avoid the self-priming loading approach for flintlock muzzleloading due to the fear of unintentional discharge, like a hammer accidentally striking the frizzen, overheated pan or barrel igniting the powder. Can we make self-priming safer by putting on a leather cover on the frizzen and avoid rapid fire to overheat the parts? 2) In your video “What’s The Difference Between ‘Fg’ And ‘FFFFg’ Powder And Does It Matter?”, the 4Fg just self-prime from the barrel to the pan, even when the touch hole of the flintlock musket is not enlarged. That makes me wonder, can we perform self-priming by pouring the 4Fg into the barrel first, then pour the 2Fg or 3Fg powder into the barrel? In my hypothesis, the musket will not loss more velocity and decrease the accuracy because of too much energy leaving the barrel through the enlarged touch hole. 3) If I pour two layers of powder into the paper cartridge, one layer being 2Fg/3Fg, and another layer being 4Fg, would it work for any normal flintlock musket with a normal size touch hole to perform self-priming?
When I got my cap and ball pistol, all I could get at the time was 4f. I used it for years with no problem. No dribbling out the cap hole or anything. Not quite the same, I know.
Makes sense. The longer the mill time the better combined the ingredients. I'm sure there's a point of little gain as far as time but maybe that's for another video? Good job fellas.
I can't wait to purchase Aged Black Powder, milled for 2 years and has a price of $500 per pound. Also it comes with a metallic sticker claiming it's authenticity XD.
You guys keep improving. Tell an American Yer doing it wrong. Tell us We can't do something. We'll prove you wrong. Mill Time Son! Christ Bless You Boyz!
WOW! ( I had to) The first bamboo video had me disappointed. So this is great news for me, as I have an endless supply of bamboo around here. I'll just RONCO that mill and make good powder! You guys ROCK!
Jake, great video's! Thanks for the education and inspirational thoughts. Milling time is definitely helping. When you did the TP powder, you added to the sulphur in the mix by using paper...here's a thought; kraft paper is the highest acid content paper produced. How about 72 hrs of milling with charred kraft paper?!? Good luck!
Man. What an awesome experiment and even better results!!! I’m wondering if the same may apply to milling ingredients for my solid rocket motor propellant!?? Obviously can’t and don’t mix the powders in the mill, but I’m thinking now a longer mill time will have to benefit the final product!!?? As for black powder it obvious there a massive benefit!!!! Top job!!!
Another very informative video :-) Two questions - has milling it for 72 hours made it even cleaner, or maybe it hasn't change much? Second one - will you try long milling your best (TP?) powder so far?
Hearing your method, I know your powder is super fast stuff. I don't own a ballmill yet. I have been doing "CIA" black powder method for 3 years and that works for me. I am one of those "pyro dudes". And for pyrotechnics if your making a lift powder for shells if its too fast it could blow a hole in the launch tube. Pyro black powder and muzzleloading powder have different uses and thats fine. Is not there a risk of ignition while opening the mill after milling for a long time or would that take a week or more to get to that point ? I'm a fan, don't listen to the haters, they just don't know because they have never tried it.
I don't think we need to see it on paper unless the powder is exceptional. I'm always weary when I hear people say "it is the only way" or "this is the way we always done it". Take it with a grain of salt, and do your own investigation. Something I'm interested in finding out: Does air humidity effect the milling and screening process? does it perform better if the humidity is kept constant during the 24 or 72 hour milling process? I know Black Powder needs some humidity, but I wonder what the magic number is. probably around 30-50% humidity but could be interesting to experiment with. Due Point may also effect powder performance. You guys are doing the Lords work, keep it up!
Speaking of dense, I have some charcoal that I made out of opened up PINE CONES! OMG the creosote created was terrible. I almost used it for charcoal briquets instead of black powder but after seeing this video,... I'll go ahead and see what happens. Update my Tumble weed experiment was a pain to collect and process into charcoal but the testing will continue anyway. I found a treadmill for free on a nextdoor. Making my own milling machine similar to yours and at this point that is the hold up. Just trying to find the time to build it. Very entertaining. Oh BTW I am using 4" copper pipe to make my ball mill(s). I will also cast copper balls instead of using the brass ones you use.
Man, you have a great channel. I really enjoy the science and look forward to the smoke clearing and seeing what velocities you have achieved. I have 5 pounds of 2F Schuetzen - it is super dirty and I wish I hadn't purchased it. Could milling it for a few days improve its performance? Thank you for the excellent content. By the by, you are a good marksman.
Nice! Consistent as well. I once milled a batch of Black Willow BP for 5 days(120 hours). Sadly, I never tried it in a rifle, only an open air burn speed test compared to a 24 hour batch. I honestly couldn't tell any difference in burn speed. In a rifle, I'm sure the results would have been obvious.
Since 72hours gave such good results the next experiment should be 48 and 96 hours. Then graph the results (e.g. milling time versus muzzle velocity, also include 12 hours if you find the time) to find out where the point of diminishing returns is. If 36 or 48 hours produces the same results as 72 hours then that' would be another significant result. If 96 hours produced a significant, measurable and repeatable improvement that would be an even more significant.
Bamboo, this brings up the question in my mind about the inventors of black powder thousands of years ago, the Chinese. Of course bamboo was and is in abundance there. So it stands to reason that their cheapest and most abundant source of charcoal would be bamboo, eh? So many things made from bamboo which produced much scrape as well. Just an idea Fellers. Those results are very impressive. So will you try milling longer with powders you already have good results with at 24 hours and try longer milling times? Kind Thanks, Many Blessings and Good Shootin! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
So someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears the longer you mill your powder, at least that specific powder, the hotter or quicker it burns? If it jumps from 1500 fps on average to 1700 fps average with an additional 48 hours of milling, that seems pretty insane.
How about taking a new can of Goex, dividing it in half. Re-mill one half for 72 hours and compress and granulate it. Shoot one shot new Goex, one shot re-do Goex. repeat for 10 shots while keeping careful control of the results. Then shoot 25 shots of each separately, cleaning when necessary. Maybe a strictly office facts video to keep it a reasonable length. This will put the 'naysayers' out to pasture. I look forward to all your stuff !
0:25, definitely ignore them. When I was doing fuel cell ceramic research we'd mix for 18 hours or more because mixing is important. Its the same way with black powder. Unless the chemicals are extremely finely mixed they won't react. They just wont. And if they don't react they just make more fouling and don't contribute to the energy released when you shoot it. Edit: isn't learning fun!
Good Job Jake! Pyros have very low performance requirements for BP and even de-tune their powder in many cases to make it burn slower. They have no clue about squeezing maximum energy per unit mass out of a powder batch, and burn cleanliness is not a concern for them at all. I think you are right about efficient incorporation being the key to performance. I believe that the Civil War era rifle and cannon powder makers were well aware of this factor. As you noted, grinding efficiency in a ball mill increases with media density. Also, grinding efficiency is influenced by fill ratios, and overfilling of the balls in the mill drum and overcharging of the product within the media charge both reduce efficiency. Industry experience seems to suggest ~50% charge of media by volume in a ball mill drum is optimum, and somewhat less than 50% of the interstitial volume of the media should be filled by the product. Greater grinding efficiency delivers shorter processing times. There will be some point of diminishing returns w/r/t processing time. This will need experimentation to determine. Try increments of 24 hours of milling, all other factors equal to find an appropriate end point for your specific equipment as a first approximation. So try another batch at 48, and another at 96 hours if you are so inclined.
Its only about size of charcoal particles. Wood species proven by centuries give soft easy to crush charcoal. Small particles is tends to better combustion efficiency and less fouling , because black fouling is unburned charcoal. Lousy charcoal is waste of time.
It makes perfect sense. BP is a mechanical mixture. The finer the particles in that mixture the faster and more complete the chemical reaction. More complete equals cleaner. Faster equals, well, faster.
Now I’d like to see 72 hour buckthorn or Cottonelle. You’ll start getting relativistic effects as the ball approaches the speed of light. Time to reach escape velocity and low earth orbit.
😂
@@Everythingblackpowder Yes, all week cottonelle please.
Yeah… but is it finer? Our esteemed vlog hosts say it’s 3F grind. Are the fines screened out of that? If so the density wouldn’t change…
Perhaps the extra milling time is “pounding” more KNO3 into the bamboo particles, regardless of size…? Or am I having a brain fart?
@@Glenfilthie1 Screening (to get 3F powder) comes after pressing into pucks, which itself comes after milling. I think it's crucial for all the ingredients to be in as small particles as possible, because only then they will mix and react well. The largest fraction, be it fuel or oxidiser, will be the limiting factor (as only the surface can react with its counterpart).
72 hour Cottonelle!!
Well now that begs the question what would happen if you milled your alder buck thorn & other prior top rated recipes for 72 hours. You know you gotta try it!
You sir, are a pioneer to the modern era of blackpowder firearms.
Thank you.
Again, thank you for sharing these new discoveries with us.
Thank you
AMEN! I second this motion!
Maybe, but the cameraman and probably both of them are a couple of arrogant little f****.
Today's episode is why I love this channel.
Thank you VERY MUCH Jake. 👍
Thank you
Now you need to mill the cottonelle for 72 hours.
That'd be a fun experiment. Put it through the pyrolizer and mill it long. They might make a super powder.
They might make the super duperiest of uber powders ever in the history of everything!
Want!
Might get past 2000 fps in the standardized test 🤔
Or maybe not. Perhaps the better charcoal sources only have better performance because they break up into smaller particles without extended milling time.
It definitely would be interesting…
What he said
Rifle right handed and pistol left?
My vote is "yes" on paper, and I agree that reserving that step for "decent" powders is appropriate.
VERY interesting results!!!
Glad to hear it
Jake, your channel is making some large strides in this black powder hobby. "This close" to 100,000, congrats, well deserved. Keep doing these types of experiments, have a great day! Mike.
Thanks, Mike
Now do your cottonelle best performer with a 72 hour mill. I think you'd be close to 1850.
Now you're going to have to do the same thing with the toilet paper powder and see if there's an improvement.
The cottonnail toilet paper is great as is, but if it could be improved by longer milling, that would be very impressive.
Great video, as always.
Jake. You definitely proved the people wrong saying your wasting your time by milling that long .
It's something like say "don't waste your time chewing your food, just swallow it" 😂
I don't consider it a waste of my time when it doesn't require any action on my part. Milling for 6 hours Vs. 72 is just leaving the mill plugged in longer.
@@luisgarza2036
😂👍 Yeah! Just get the ram from your meat grinder and ram it home. You’ll be fine.🤣
You could open a drive through restaurant named “Funnel and Ram”. Think of the time you could save.
Just drive up and ram home a burger. Bring your own funnel.
@@chopsddy3 hahahaha 🤣🤣
Agreed its not making anymore work .
"Wine that has been aged for 24 hours is good enough!" Those were some remarkable results. I was saying "wow!" to myself too. And congrats on hitting 100k subs!
Thanks, Jeff!
I'm actually surprised that so many from the pyrotechnic community in those comments skipped over an extremely important piece of context for milling times. In pyro application 4-12 hour milling times are acceptable and even preferred because you can easily reach a threshold where the powder is too fast and will begin to damage components (usually reinforced paper) or create less dramatic effects. " Antique muzzleloading propellant" is created to achieve different goals than pyrotechnic propellant. I have personally tried making pyrotechnics with muzzleloader grade BP and can attest that it burns way too fast for that application. Different tools for different jobs everyone.
That's my thoughts exactly. It's entirely different applications.
I was wondering about the different uses; glad you explained.
Well said
I know what you are saying, but at the same time, most of us pyrotechnic guys are boosting our poweder with a stronger mixture of something else. So I feel like better powder would be beneficial. Lift charge is also a major component, where I believe sporting grade powder is a much better option. I started milling my powder at 24 hours for lift.
I'd like to see the results of longer milling on one of your other recipes to see if there are gains with other charcoals.
Will do
@@EverythingblackpowderI was going to say the same thing!
My guess is that the grain size being much smaller helps with the burn rate.
Easier for the flame front to consume something smaller rather than larger.
Puts me into the mind of how the Union Pacific experimented with using pulverized coal to power a gas turbine.
It didn’t work out because of blade erosion, but it did work.
Kind of like a contained dust explosion…..
again we run into the "everyone knows" vs "we've tested it at various mill times and this is what works" . I learned a long time ago to be wary of things "everyone knows". They may even be right for pyrotechnics. The shorter mill time might be perfect for them. But I've been watching your channel for a long time now and I've watched you change your mill times. I knew before I watched what the result was likely to be. Thanks again guys. Now pyrotechnics guys can get with the program..
I completely agree. To give the pyro guys the benefit of the doubt I think the quality of powder that is required for fireworks is not nearly as high as Sporting grade powder
Too hot a powder could lead to a CATO in the mortar tube. . .
@@Everythingblackpowder I agree Jake, I don't think pyrotechnics are too concerned with how clean or generally how fast the powder is but how much brilliance and puissance it has. Maybe they should try it though, it might just be the cat's meow.
The question is,” Who are the “ THEYS?” I call them “ Theysayers!”
You can theorize all you want but you still have to test the results, I can't think why they would think it's not worth trying to adjust all the variables.
Probably been said already, but 4-6 hours is just fine for fireworks. Its a much lower standard than what you need for this. Having said that, I thought 12-18 hours was enough. Now I'm probably going to throw all of the powder I have back in the ball mill for another couple of days.
Cant remember if i mentioned this before. Your channel has gotten me to break out my smokepoles again! I recently repaired an 1850's DB ten gauge shotgun and have been having alot of fun shooting it!
Glad to hear it!
I will not make my own videos. I like yours.
Milling it longer,
Mechanochemistry
Still an infant science.
This video is part of its history.
Great job.
I have no experience making black powder. With that said, is there a process where you can mix (mill) the ingredients using distilled water (or whatever) in blender as a slurry, pour that onto paper to remove some of the water and then go straight to pucking it?
Yes we’ve used alcohol and ethanol and a couple others. It does work but we get the best results from milling dry.
Totally underrated channel. Been watching you since you had like 30k subs. I find it interesting with such little subs you have many big channels that are subbed and watching you guys. That says something
Thank you
You and your brother getting excited about a result and saying "Bitching" doesn't get tiring! Gotta love data that doesn't lie.
As others have mentioned it would be interesting to see round two of some of the previous powders which didn't perform as good.
Also concur with the idea of paper targets for the better performing powders, you need something to step up the game to after-all.
Awesome video, it is crazy at the increase you got. If you don't go through lbs of powder a week then I can see that extra milling time being 100% worth it. It might be interesting to see a batch milled for a whole week to see if there gets to be a point of significantly diminishing gains.
Dude that lock time still blows me away.
Addendum: the long mill time…hmmm, you may have discovered the secret of the Swiss
How about Balsa, Willow and Alder Buckthorn milled for 72 hrs ? Maybe that also gonna improve significantly and maybe beyond Swiss ?
It would be cool to see the results of the other carbon sources with longer mill times. My hypothesis is you may get similar results with things like grass/ straw and cotton balls. It would be interesting to see what Cottonelle Toilet paper does with longer mill times as well. I'm thinking the grain and fiber structure of any of the carbon sources has an influence on velocity.
This , and indeed much of the channel, is an excellent example of good enough vs best. You have put far more effort into your powder research than it is worth, and I hope you continue.
Count on it
I agree with the previous post. It would be nice to see cottonelle after 72 hours of mill time.
This channel is the hidden gem of guntube. Keep up the amazing work.
Thank you
Bamboo grows extremely fast, too. Could be a nice renewable source of charcoal for antique muzzleload propellant.
Or nitrocellulose. Might be why China made so much of it..
This opens wide the avenue to re-testing the results of every charcoal you have tested thus far. As a working man, I realize the limitations on your time will slow results but it has also given hope to the rest of us as well. This one discovery has brought about a revolution in the understanding of those concerned that has a huge effect, unnoticed in a thousand years. As has always been mentioned, "Patience is it's own reward."
Science!
My first few batches of antique muzzleloading propellant were milled for just 4 hours too and didn't perform well (though I was thrilled at the time that it worked at all).
One day I decided to mill it longer just to see what happened. I let it go for 12 hours with lead balls. Like you, I found my powder performed better.
Next batch I'll have to double it and see what happens.
As DCUPP stated, the use of bp for pyrotechnics is totally different than the use of bp in antique firearms. Pyrotechnicians need a basic grade of bp to create colorful displays in the night sky. Us antique firearm enthusiasts need an excellent grade of bp for our recreation.
Immensely enjoyed this video. Thank you!
always impressed with how clean, as in no dust, your powder is.
"Not an incredible distance, but I could still miss." Such confidence.
Seems like the obvious thing they are overlooking is the fact that the end use of ‘Antique Muzzle Loading Propellent’ vs Pyrotechnic Powder is vastly different, where you need clean burning, low fouling, powerful powder with extremely consistent results, theirs needs to go bang/poof/sparkle in the general direction of ‘up’ , out of a tube with far less tight tolerances.
Try experimenting with the actual same batch of chemical mix. Mill the batch for 24 hours, remove 1/2 the batch and continue milling the other half for the extra 48 then finish the process as usual with 2 separate batches mill ed different durations. If it produces the results you have here then your proof is in the milling time. Great videos👍
I think with your comments on how dense the bamboo is compared to other charcoals used, the extra time milling helps in incorporating the ingredients. So, do you now revisit this by milling a batch 48 hours to see if it preforms the same as 72 and 96 hours to see if it now matches Swiss velocities? Also, lets see this "clean" powder in cartridges, 45 colt, Snyder etc.
There is a WORLD of difference between muzzle loading powder and the course, mild lift charge powder used in a fireworks shell.
I believe it
@@Everythingblackpowder
Goex is great for the burst charge, but our lift powder is probably 70% of Goex power and burn. Also very course, courser than FG.
Edit: Too fast a lift powder and too tight a fit in the mortar tube is inviting a CATO.
Wondering what would be the result if you re milled Swiss for 72 hours? Can it be done? As it seems to be your benchmark. As always very much enjoy your work - has benefitted me immensely.
I had another thought; in regards to some people having Bamboo powder be dirty and some not, and this might apply to a lot of carbon sources; If the outside layer (bark) is included or not.
Tree Bark includes a lot of silicates, and the cambium layer just under it has chlorophyll, and on bamboo, the outer skin has a lot of silica, much like grass(hay) so if someone made charcoal out of *small* bamboo tubes, they would end up with more outer surface than if they used pieces of larger bamboo.
I would guess using just the inner part of bamboo would get better results, and staying away from the sapwood and bark on regular wood ought to produce nicer results as well.
Kind of curious if you re-milled Goex what would happen? Now i'm wondering if we're going to get a video titled "I milled this powder for a year and this happened!"
Always Learning, Thank-You
Well it didn't suck again. It actually brings 2 things to mind. 1) It seems that the pyro guys have a much lower standard of quality that they are willing to settle for and still be able to get their job done. 2) I guess we all need to see what happens when Cottenell is milled for 72 hours. Good job Jake on exploring all the possibilities.
What if you took GOEX and milled it for 48 to 72 hours and then compressed it again to see if theres improvement ? That would be a neat test to see what changes it makes.
It makes sense, so long as longer grinds equal smaller particles, which incorporate more completely. I have to wonder if a longer period in the mixing stage would produce similar boosts in performance.
Great video, always something new to absorb.
Wonderful! What the pyrotechnicians forget is that shooting a lead ball through a 1/2" tube is a specialist application not comparable to lifting 3-12" shells from a mortar tube. For that, 4-6 hours suffices because you are making a cannon powder, but antique muzzleloading propellants need a bit more, as you've demonstrated. Next stop, i agree with @johndiblasi4803 , is cottonelle for 72 hours to see if you can get it past 1900 and perhaps touch 2000 fps under standard conditions. It would go viral! Alder/Buckthorn might give a greater performance increase though. as they are harder charcoals.
Try milling your cottonwood powder for 72hrs ( we got LOTS of cottonwood around here )!!
WE have a tree here nicknamed "Popcorn Tree" which is Chinese tallow tree.I wonder how it would do as a Charcoal source. I can send you some.
Now I'm curious what would happen if you milled one of the really good muzzle loading propellants for that long.
What if it’s not the carbon source that matters but how hard the charcoal is that affects the speed. Which would mean milling longer would be required to get the particle size down to what a shorter mill time would get out of soft charcoal.
Great video guys here's what comes to mind on this one shoot the original 24 hour powder then the 72 hour powder every other shot that will definitely validate the question in milling time.
"You cannot mill your powder too long." So talcum powder consistency next? 😁
I usually don't stop milling until it talcum fine at the least. Basically when it gets to the point where it clumps every 15 minutes of mill time. Another soft indicator is when the loose mill dust has an almost metallic sheen when pressed with a spoon and leaves a satin finish on the powder. Kinda hard to describe until you see it in person. I'll also tend to take a batch granulate it and re-mill once it gets to that stage just because of the clumping. At that point you can get around some of the clumping just by sieving the fines off but that's usually unnecessary.
Try nitrogen or helium to fill the can before charing and before cooling. It'll prevent oxidising of a charcoal
glad to see you shoot for accuracy, speed means little without good groups,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I have a suggestion. You mentioned that bamboo charcoal is very dense, which makes me wonder if you could mill a bunch of bamboo charcoal separately, then mill BP made from it for a shorter time and get the same results.
When I first started I bought willow branches that someone cooked, put some in a bag and broke it up with a hammer and milled it by itself. Then I screened it to remove big chunks and milled the dust with KNO3 & sulfur to incorporate it.
I realize this suggestion won't save time when making small test batches to test different charcoals but if you settle on bamboo as your go-to fuel it might if it turns out charcoal particle size matters more than incorporation time.
i think everyone who watches your videos can attest that your a pioneer in the black powder development field youve managed to continue where the old timers left off back in the 1890s
Thank you
I am one of them "pryo"guys and I ALWAYS mill my powder a minimum of 24 hours. Sometimes I'll let it go an extra 12 hours if I'm busy doing other stuff. Everyone who's used my powder has complimented me on it's ignition and burn speed. On one occasion someone tried to convince me I accidently swapped it with flash due to how fast it went up. I tend to make about a 1/2 lbs worth at a time and don't keep more than a pound of home made stuff on hand. I use my powder mostly for cap and ball revolvers or on a rare occasion when someone has needed something for their pan.
4 hours!?! The few people i have met who attempt to correct me on how I make power made similar statements that I was doing it wrong or too long. Two of them were in the elderly category and when pressed it was quickly discovered they actually knew very little about pyro let alone BP. Another person was younger but a bit dim witted - ran into them at a safety course.
In the past I mostly made BP rockets although safety issues with launching them has slowed that hobby down. Maybe some day I can find some good land to launch rockets from that wont catch anything on fire. Building and launching BP rockets is a great hobby albeit it's incredibly dangerous around houses or dry climates.
and the lesson of the day?? Good things come to those who wait... or mill for longer periods. ^~^ I foresee many new experiments in timing to come ~_^
Thanks Dudes ! We all are truly grateful for y'alls time and effort 👍
TO 100K SUBS AND BEYOND !
Thank you
now its time to find out if it does it with toilet paper just imaging getting 2150 fps lol
А ЕСЛИ ВМЕСТО ПОРОХА ,НАСЫПАТЬ СПИЧЕЧНУЮ СЕРУ ? МОЩНОСТЬ БУДЕТ ТАКАЯ ЖЕ ? 🤔
I would also like to see the performance of 72 hour milling on the top performing powders! Congratulations on your success, well deserved!
Will do!
You have something now Jake, how about milling some of your alder buckthorn for the same extended time an seeing what happens - for science and curiosities sake.
You bet
Now what could happen if you were to mill the Swiss for an extended time?
Could we get close to 2,000 FPS from 50 grains!
Don't make my own power yet, but I will, in the future.
What you are doing is why the scientific method works.
Great video!
Not that I know anything, I don't. Have you ever considered or tried bone charcoal?
We’ve talked about it
I deeply appreciate that you are testing and documenting for all of us for free, and I dont blackpowder anything. Thanks for all the work and effort. What im getting from this is perhaps charcoal density should be an indicator of how long it needs to be milled.
New to your channei,less than 6 months which video shows milling as I've never heard of it?
How To Make The Absolute BEST Black Powder (For Firearms)
ua-cam.com/video/PJDjKvjqvpM/v-deo.html
Well done, Jake - great info; much appreciated!!
I'd be very curious to see the results of long-milled balsa and Cottonelle powders.
Good idea to put "worthy" powders on paper going forward.
Thanks for everything you do to make this one of my favorite channels. Keep up the great work!!
Now you gotta try your alder buckthorn for 72 hr?
king of kings , thx for putting in the work for all of us 🙂
Wasn't expecting that...😀Now I wonder if this works for all the charcoals or just the "dense" ones....and does it make them all proportionally cleaner than 24 hour powder? If cottonelle can hit 2000 fps you should have a celebratory tannerite pack to shoot...heh
theoretically it should since black powder is a chemical reaction. The finer the powder the more complete and faster the reaction should be which is why in chemistry most things are either liquids or powders, and even things that are solids are usually broken down or ground with some exceptions. Also since the reaction is more complete there should be less residue which would mean cleaner burning. But i'm sure there is a practical limit and variables
@@sauceless6666 Well, lampblack is about as fine as you can get but absolutely sucks. Conversely "activated" or "puffed" carbon also sucks. Hay bales suck and I'd think that also would be very fine. Graphite has a "scale" type structure which is why it makes a good lubricant but I'm fairly certain it would suck. I've been thinking about carbon molecule structures and how they might relate but there's a lot of them...heh. We need some buckyballs or nanotubes. Maybe when I figure it out I'll get a nobel prize or something....😉
Does the ambient air temperature, pressure, and humidity on the day that you are testing affect your results?
Yes but only 25fps or so
This video makes me wonder what would the AB powder or cottonelle powder do if it was milled just as long. Maybe it’ll break 2000?
We will find out
As someone who's interested in self-priming muskets, I have a few questions about self-priming for the muskets:
1) People tend to avoid the self-priming loading approach for flintlock muzzleloading due to the fear of unintentional discharge, like a hammer accidentally striking the frizzen, overheated pan or barrel igniting the powder. Can we make self-priming safer by putting on a leather cover on the frizzen and avoid rapid fire to overheat the parts?
2) In your video “What’s The Difference Between ‘Fg’ And ‘FFFFg’ Powder And Does It Matter?”, the 4Fg just self-prime from the barrel to the pan, even when the touch hole of the flintlock musket is not enlarged. That makes me wonder, can we perform self-priming by pouring the 4Fg into the barrel first, then pour the 2Fg or 3Fg powder into the barrel? In my hypothesis, the musket will not loss more velocity and decrease the accuracy because of too much energy leaving the barrel through the enlarged touch hole.
3) If I pour two layers of powder into the paper cartridge, one layer being 2Fg/3Fg, and another layer being 4Fg, would it work for any normal flintlock musket with a normal size touch hole to perform self-priming?
When I got my cap and ball pistol, all I could get at the time was 4f. I used it for years with no problem. No dribbling out the cap hole or anything. Not quite the same, I know.
Makes sense. The longer the mill time the better combined the ingredients. I'm sure there's a point of little gain as far as time but maybe that's for another video? Good job fellas.
Very interesting :) thank you
I love your experiments!
Great job, it pays to be open minded and willing to experiment! keep up the good work 😃
I can't wait to purchase Aged Black Powder, milled for 2 years and has a price of $500 per pound. Also it comes with a metallic sticker claiming it's authenticity XD.
You guys keep improving. Tell an American Yer doing it wrong. Tell us We can't do something. We'll prove you wrong. Mill Time Son!
Christ Bless You Boyz!
WOW! ( I had to) The first bamboo video had me disappointed. So this is great news for me, as I have an endless supply of bamboo around here. I'll just RONCO that mill and make good powder! You guys ROCK!
You guys are re-writing the book on personal “modern production” of Antique Muzzle Loading Propellant. Frigging Epic information
Thank you
Jake, great video's! Thanks for the education and inspirational thoughts. Milling time is definitely helping. When you did the TP powder, you added to the sulphur in the mix by using paper...here's a thought; kraft paper is the highest acid content paper produced. How about 72 hrs of milling with charred kraft paper?!? Good luck!
Man. What an awesome experiment and even better results!!! I’m wondering if the same may apply to milling ingredients for my solid rocket motor propellant!?? Obviously can’t and don’t mix the powders in the mill, but I’m thinking now a longer mill time will have to benefit the final product!!??
As for black powder it obvious there a massive benefit!!!! Top job!!!
Another very informative video :-) Two questions - has milling it for 72 hours made it even cleaner, or maybe it hasn't change much? Second one - will you try long milling your best (TP?) powder so far?
Hearing your method, I know your powder is super fast stuff.
I don't own a ballmill yet.
I have been doing "CIA" black powder method for 3 years and that works for me.
I am one of those "pyro dudes".
And for pyrotechnics if your making a lift powder for shells if its too fast it could blow a hole in the launch tube.
Pyro black powder and muzzleloading powder have different uses and thats fine.
Is not there a risk of ignition while opening the mill after milling for a long time or would that take a week or more to get to that point ?
I'm a fan, don't listen to the haters, they just don't know because they have never tried it.
I don't think we need to see it on paper unless the powder is exceptional.
I'm always weary when I hear people say "it is the only way" or "this is the way we always done it". Take it with a grain of salt, and do your own investigation.
Something I'm interested in finding out:
Does air humidity effect the milling and screening process? does it perform better if the humidity is kept constant during the 24 or 72 hour milling process? I know Black Powder needs some humidity, but I wonder what the magic number is. probably around 30-50% humidity but could be interesting to experiment with. Due Point may also effect powder performance.
You guys are doing the Lords work, keep it up!
Speaking of dense, I have some charcoal that I made out of opened up PINE CONES! OMG the creosote created was terrible. I almost used it for charcoal briquets instead of black powder but after seeing this video,... I'll go ahead and see what happens. Update my Tumble weed experiment was a pain to collect and process into charcoal but the testing will continue anyway. I found a treadmill for free on a nextdoor. Making my own milling machine similar to yours and at this point that is the hold up. Just trying to find the time to build it. Very entertaining. Oh BTW I am using 4" copper pipe to make my ball mill(s). I will also cast copper balls instead of using the brass ones you use.
Man, you have a great channel. I really enjoy the science and look forward to the smoke clearing and seeing what velocities you have achieved. I have 5 pounds of 2F Schuetzen - it is super dirty and I wish I hadn't purchased it. Could milling it for a few days improve its performance? Thank you for the excellent content. By the by, you are a good marksman.
Three years ago,I milled one batch of willow for about 50hours and it was like lightning,very different I milled for 16-24 hours
Nice! Consistent as well. I once milled a batch of Black Willow BP for 5 days(120 hours). Sadly, I never tried it in a rifle, only an open air burn speed test compared to a 24 hour batch. I honestly couldn't tell any difference in burn speed. In a rifle, I'm sure the results would have been obvious.
Since 72hours gave such good results the next experiment should be 48 and 96 hours. Then graph the results (e.g. milling time versus muzzle velocity, also include 12 hours if you find the time) to find out where the point of diminishing returns is.
If 36 or 48 hours produces the same results as 72 hours then that' would be another significant result. If 96 hours produced a significant, measurable and repeatable improvement that would be an even more significant.
Bamboo, this brings up the question in my mind about the inventors of black powder thousands of years ago, the Chinese. Of course bamboo was and is in abundance there. So it stands to reason that their cheapest and most abundant source of charcoal would be bamboo, eh? So many things made from bamboo which produced much scrape as well. Just an idea Fellers. Those results are very impressive. So will you try milling longer with powders you already have good results with at 24 hours and try longer milling times? Kind Thanks, Many Blessings and Good Shootin! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
So someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears the longer you mill your powder, at least that specific powder, the hotter or quicker it burns? If it jumps from 1500 fps on average to 1700 fps average with an additional 48 hours of milling, that seems pretty insane.
How about taking a new can of Goex, dividing it in half. Re-mill one half for 72 hours and compress and granulate it.
Shoot one shot new Goex, one shot re-do Goex. repeat for 10 shots while keeping careful control of the results. Then shoot 25 shots of each separately, cleaning when necessary.
Maybe a strictly office facts video to keep it a reasonable length. This will put the 'naysayers' out to pasture.
I look forward to all your stuff !
0:25, definitely ignore them. When I was doing fuel cell ceramic research we'd mix for 18 hours or more because mixing is important. Its the same way with black powder. Unless the chemicals are extremely finely mixed they won't react. They just wont. And if they don't react they just make more fouling and don't contribute to the energy released when you shoot it.
Edit: isn't learning fun!
Good Job Jake!
Pyros have very low performance requirements for BP and even de-tune their powder in many cases to make it burn slower. They have no clue about squeezing maximum energy per unit mass out of a powder batch, and burn cleanliness is not a concern for them at all. I think you are right about efficient incorporation being the key to performance. I believe that the Civil War era rifle and cannon powder makers were well aware of this factor.
As you noted, grinding efficiency in a ball mill increases with media density. Also, grinding efficiency is influenced by fill ratios, and overfilling of the balls in the mill drum and overcharging of the product within the media charge both reduce efficiency. Industry experience seems to suggest ~50% charge of media by volume in a ball mill drum is optimum, and somewhat less than 50% of the interstitial volume of the media should be filled by the product. Greater grinding efficiency delivers shorter processing times. There will be some point of diminishing returns w/r/t processing time. This will need experimentation to determine. Try increments of 24 hours of milling, all other factors equal to find an appropriate end point for your specific equipment as a first approximation. So try another batch at 48, and another at 96 hours if you are so inclined.
Its only about size of charcoal particles. Wood species proven by centuries give soft easy to crush charcoal. Small particles is tends to better combustion efficiency and less fouling , because black fouling is unburned charcoal. Lousy charcoal is waste of time.
Jake ,Did you do the 2/4hr glaze on this batch?
Yes two hours
@@Everythingblackpowder 👍