When playing CD's with a high dynamic range, I have used an oscilloscope connected across the power amplifier output to observe amplifier clipping on short time transients. That was when I realised that whatever power level you require for your listening, you need around ten times that amount of power in reserve to avoid clipping on transients.
Increased dynamics may occure with very powerfull speakers playing at soft levels where there is some initial force repeled by stiffness of suspension..
Having reserve power is good for producing dynamics, with plenty of current. But also having a pure class A amp is so musical. And having all that in one amp is where it's at. Having 91 dB speakers, the majority of the time I'm only running class A, up to 8-10 w. But the dynamics are there if pushed to class AB when needed.
I'd say it's not about watts but more about current. I once listened to a SMSL-SA50 amplifier which is rated at 50W into 4 ohms and it could easily get my speakers to ear damaging sound levels. But the bass was pretty much non existent. because it lacked the current to driver the woofer properly. Now there are amplifiers which have far less power than the SMSL but more than enough current to drive almost any speaker. The thing IMO is, that in the entry level market you don't find such amps. So this might be the reason why people ask for a lot of watts. Simply because in the entry level market mostly amps with high power ratings produce enough current to drive speakers properly.
know about the walk around equipment video. can you consider making a headphone collection video. staring in the background of each video, have waited long enough to ask.
For listening in a room, 2 x 20 Watt RMS at 8ohm and a THD lower than 1% takes you a long way. More is always better but even if you have a big living room, I doubt you would need more then 2 x 50 Watt. All of this with the average speaker that has an efficiencie somewhere in the 86-92 db era.
It's an interesting phenomenon that audiophiles regularly give advice that's aimed to help the average listener/buyer, presumably non-audiophile. Occasionally the audiophile misses the point and gives advice based on their own priorities and not on those of the intended audience, but usually audiophiles that bother to try to be helpful get it right, as I believe Steve does here. The irony is that the overwhelming majority of people getting this advice, the people watching this, are actually audiophiles. Average people typically get their audio electronic advice from advertisements. I think this is invaluable info for beginner audiophiles but it would serve the average home listener much better than the ads on TV or the displays at the appliance stores.
Well said. How much air do you want to move? And how efficient are your speakers? My 40 watts per channel driven Marantz drives my 100 litre infinite baffle 3 ways, well enough to pump my windows in and out. I don't really need that for my listening though. Where I've noticed this specifically is with guitar amps. The headroom of 1000 watts changes everything over 40 watts.
The french 'revue du son' did dynamic power amp test for clipping and compression with voice of the theatre altec la'sing 100db/w efficient ,test with bolero from Ravel, and in order to prenvent clipping distortion on the fortissimi they needed 2x 70 watt tube amp in the bass notes....for undistorted signal....a 90db/1watt speaker has only 1% efficiency ,to get around 50% efficiency it needs 115 db/w like horm mid drivers ..... Once a custumer came in my audio shop with Linn Kann speakers and a opera singer cd for search for an amplifier that will not clipp and distort the fortissimo...he went in lots of shops and none of the amps could please him, but the efficiency of Linn Kann is around 83 db/w so impossible to get 400watt in the small kef b110 coil....
The answer is simple math. Take your speaker efficiency....say it's 90dB@1watt. You have two speakers and a stereo amp so you can add 3 dB to the equation because you've just doubled the power. So the base volume of you system at 1 meter is 93 dB. With a good 100 watt amp you can cruise along at 93 dB (which is pretty damn loud) and have 20dB of system headroom providing your speakers can handle the power. Every ten fold wattage increase equates to roughly twice the volume or 10dB. Most systems will struggle to deliver more than 20dB over the speaker's rated efficiency due to the limits of the amplifier and or the limits of the speakers.
In my bedroom system I have a temple audio bantam gold which is only running about 13 watts per channel into 8ohms into a pair of klipsch RP 150m speakers and that goes plenty loud😄
I use Parasound A-21 power amp(250w) to drive 91dB speakers. I dont have the A-21 for all that power. But instead for its Class A amplification up to 10 wpc.
Doesn't higher watts mean the amp can overcome the inertia of the driver's mass, thus a better sound quality? ? Or am I thinking more current here? Since W = V*A is it better to know how much current the amp can produce. Would love you to do a video going over some of the basics of electromagnetism and how it applies to high end audio - thx!
I think Steve misspoke and instead of the Atlantic Technology RR 2160 he meant Outlaw Audio's RR 2160. I think because Peter Tribeman running both companies. My RR 2160 is arriving tomorrow btw.
You should do a theme and variations on this topic at least once a year to cover for how quickly posts get overlooked with time. It takes seemingly repeated blows to the head to understand and get your head around the fact that for every 3 dB less efficiency, you need twice the amplifier power to achieve the same listening level. ALSO, as listening levels go like 90, 93, 96, 99, 102 dB, power levels go like 25-50-100-200-400. I recently moved a music listening system into a large 24 x 36 x 16h living room. Music started sounding pretty awful. [Sweet spot is 9 feet from speaker faces. Suspected cause, clipping.] SO QUESTION: How does power increase with room dimensions? All else equal, does it follow square feet or cubic feet? My current assumption is that I'm overdriving the amplifier, rated at 100 watts per. I'd like to get a change right, because in amplifiers, while power goes up like 1-2-3, price seems to go up like 1-2-4.
Love the videos Steve. I'm a younger fellow but seem to recall reading or hearing that during the era of the silver faced monster receiver systems they were so loud as to imitate a live performance. I do own a couple of these a Realistic STA-2100d and a Pioneer SX3900 but no speakers rated that high. I have in one room a Pioneer SX626 rated to 20-30 watts running a pair of old advents. The Advents which you know are not very efficient are rated to around 70 watts. My question though while the SX626 sounds fine and I don't feel the need to turn the volume up more than say 40% to fill the small room is there any written or unwritten rules to pairing systems with regard to wattage? Should I not put say a pair of Esquire 200's which have very high efficiency on the Pioneer SX3900 or likewise a pair of Advents on a very low 1 watt tube amp? Basically, other than ensuring the resistance of the coils are compatible with the system can or will this damage either the speaker and\or receiver pairing them up in this way?
aparneomai I recommend you ask this at an audio forum. Like AudioKarma for instance. You need to understand how it all works to understand what goes with what, but your biggest worry is underpowering, and turning it up too much to get the volume you want. Then running it into clipping. But within reason as long as you're not clipping. You're fine. Sounds like you doing okay crazy loud. So you're probably fine. But no 1 watt amps on Advents. Lol I have a pair I used to play on a 125 watt Sansui that was underrated. So they were probably getting like 140. I never had trouble, except one time I decided to see how loud they could get, and bottomed out the woofers, before I ran out of steam on the receiver. No harm done though. They'll scare you before that happens, because they'll be so loud. They did me. I was just too slow with the volume control, because it's not a normal knob. Freaked me out actually. But these are pretty sensitive to overpowering. Most speakers aren't like this. The tweeters blow very easy on the original ones too. And most speaker ratings are just rough guesses. Read some reviews where they do power tests, and you'll see speakers rated at 150, or so that don't run into trouble, until like 600-900 watts, or even more sometimes. Most speakers like more power. Some sound way better with it too. Even at low volume. I have at least 3 pairs that are like this. They wake right up when you give them a couple, or three hundred watts. My Pinnacle PN8+'s sound amazing with 200 watts from my high current amp, but just average on my receivers, even the big Sansui. And they're not rated to handle that. But they do just fine.
I get your explanation, and I thoroughly enjoy your videos. I have a question, You say you can tell how good an amp is by how it is rated at lower ohms, well I happen to have the King of vintage Sansui amps, BA-5000 300 wpc at 8,4,and 2 ohms, the power rating doesn't increase with the lower ohm loads. Does this mean my amp is not good? (rhetorical)
Don't forget classical music with its often huge dynamic range. With speakers of average sensitivity - 88 db - you really do need a lot of Watts to be able to listen at exciting levels, without compression and clipping ! And if the impedance curve of the speakers dips down below 4 Ohm at low frequencies even a lot of Watts may prove not to be enough ! Horses for courses !
So my Emotiva 50 watts Elac b6 speakers that system goes super loud so 40 is half way up 80 is max I run it at 65. I live in a small studio. Do the Nordst cables help?. Like no distortion I can hear.
Hi Steve, can you help me please? My B&W 804 D3 speakers have a sensitivity of 89 dB and recommended amp power is 50-200 watts into 8 ohms. My Arcam AVR850 amp puts out 120 watts into 8 ohms (2 channels driven). My listening room is 20 feet long by 9 feet wide by 8 feet tall and I sit 11 feet from the speakers. A lot of people have told me that the 804's are too big for my room. Others tell me that the speakers need a better amp than the Arcam 850 and recommend me getting a 200 watt power amplifier to drive them - even though I don't listen at very loud volumes. Does more power going in to the speakers make them sound better at the same listening volume? I'm really confused. Thanks.
The evil that men do. 100 watts is not 100 watts. The great lie. AVR's: "100 wpc" BUT , it's measured at 1khz ONLY, up to 10% THD. ACTUAL output: about 35 watts. This is true up to and including $2500+ ATMOS AVR's. My "180 wpc" Denon AVR could NOT drive my ATC SCM-12 worth a crap. REAL 100 wpc: specified: "100 wpc, both channels driven, 20hz-20khz at less than 1% THD"
When playing CD's with a high dynamic range, I have used an oscilloscope connected across the power amplifier output to observe amplifier clipping on short time transients. That was when I realised that whatever power level you require for your listening, you need around ten times that amount of power in reserve to avoid clipping on transients.
@Alan Smithee What is a toroidal amp?
@Alan Smithee Thanks for your amazing technical explanation.
please keep this series up. haven watched this many videos in a row from the same youtuber. great job
Thanks!!
Thanks, Steve. Simple, straightforward explanation of one of the most misunderstood aspects of audio. Great shirt, BTW.
loudness seems to be the only thing in focus. More watts increases dynamics even at softer levels. that's what's more important to me.
That is the theory, but I find smaller amps playing in the right volume range can sound better than mega amps at near rest.
Increased dynamics may occure with very powerfull speakers playing at soft levels where there is some initial force repeled by stiffness of suspension..
Is it a theory? My amp is 10wpc and does it right with 15 ohms drivers
You hit the nail on the head brother: CURRENT is what's important! ( And let's not forget the slew rate. )
Thank you for all the content it is GREATLY appreciated!!!
Having reserve power is good for producing dynamics, with plenty of current. But also having a pure class A amp is so musical. And having all that in one amp is where it's at. Having 91 dB speakers, the majority of the time I'm only running class A, up to 8-10 w. But the dynamics are there if pushed to class AB when needed.
I'd say it's not about watts but more about current. I once listened to a SMSL-SA50 amplifier which is rated at 50W into 4 ohms and it could easily get my speakers to ear damaging sound levels. But the bass was pretty much non existent. because it lacked the current to driver the woofer properly.
Now there are amplifiers which have far less power than the SMSL but more than enough current to drive almost any speaker. The thing IMO is, that in the entry level market you don't find such amps. So this might be the reason why people ask for a lot of watts. Simply because in the entry level market mostly amps with high power ratings produce enough current to drive speakers properly.
know about the walk around equipment video. can you consider making a headphone collection video. staring in the background of each video, have waited long enough to ask.
For listening in a room, 2 x 20 Watt RMS at 8ohm and a THD lower than 1% takes you a long way. More is always better but even if you have a big living room, I doubt you would need more then 2 x 50 Watt. All of this with the average speaker that has an efficiencie somewhere in the 86-92 db era.
Are you cc devil
It's an interesting phenomenon that audiophiles regularly give advice that's aimed to help the average listener/buyer, presumably non-audiophile. Occasionally the audiophile misses the point and gives advice based on their own priorities and not on those of the intended audience, but usually audiophiles that bother to try to be helpful get it right, as I believe Steve does here. The irony is that the overwhelming majority of people getting this advice, the people watching this, are actually audiophiles. Average people typically get their audio electronic advice from advertisements. I think this is invaluable info for beginner audiophiles but it would serve the average home listener much better than the ads on TV or the displays at the appliance stores.
Great video. I don't listen loud but amplifier specs are all over the place.
Well said. How much air do you want to move? And how efficient are your speakers? My 40 watts per channel driven Marantz drives my 100 litre infinite baffle 3 ways, well enough to pump my windows in and out. I don't really need that for my listening though. Where I've noticed this specifically is with guitar amps. The headroom of 1000 watts changes everything over 40 watts.
The french 'revue du son' did dynamic power amp test for clipping and compression with voice of the theatre altec la'sing 100db/w efficient ,test with bolero from Ravel, and in order to prenvent clipping distortion on the fortissimi they needed 2x 70 watt tube amp in the bass notes....for undistorted signal....a 90db/1watt speaker has only 1% efficiency ,to get around 50% efficiency it needs 115 db/w like horm mid drivers ..... Once a custumer came in my audio shop with Linn Kann speakers and a opera singer cd for search for an amplifier that will not clipp and distort the fortissimo...he went in lots of shops and none of the amps could please him, but the efficiency of Linn Kann is around 83 db/w so impossible to get 400watt in the small kef b110 coil....
The answer is simple math. Take your speaker efficiency....say it's 90dB@1watt. You have two speakers and a stereo amp so you can add 3 dB to the equation because you've just doubled the power. So the base volume of you system at 1 meter is 93 dB. With a good 100 watt amp you can cruise along at 93 dB (which is pretty damn loud) and have 20dB of system headroom providing your speakers can handle the power. Every ten fold wattage increase equates to roughly twice the volume or 10dB. Most systems will struggle to deliver more than 20dB over the speaker's rated efficiency due to the limits of the amplifier and or the limits of the speakers.
... -3dB each time you double the distance.
Good vídeo, very well explained
In my bedroom system I have a temple audio bantam gold which is only running about 13 watts per channel into 8ohms into a pair of klipsch RP 150m speakers and that goes plenty loud😄
I use Parasound A-21 power amp(250w) to drive 91dB speakers. I dont have the A-21 for all that power. But instead for its Class A amplification up to 10 wpc.
Doesn't higher watts mean the amp can overcome the inertia of the driver's mass, thus a better sound quality? ? Or am I thinking more current here? Since W = V*A is it better to know how much current the amp can produce. Would love you to do a video going over some of the basics of electromagnetism and how it applies to high end audio - thx!
I think Steve misspoke and instead of the Atlantic Technology RR 2160 he meant Outlaw Audio's RR 2160. I think because Peter Tribeman running both companies. My RR 2160 is arriving tomorrow btw.
You should do a theme and variations on this topic at least once a year to cover for how quickly posts get overlooked with time. It takes seemingly repeated blows to the head to understand and get your head around the fact that for every 3 dB less efficiency, you need twice the amplifier power to achieve the same listening level. ALSO, as listening levels go like 90, 93, 96, 99, 102 dB, power levels go like 25-50-100-200-400.
I recently moved a music listening system into a large 24 x 36 x 16h living room. Music started sounding pretty awful. [Sweet spot is 9 feet from speaker faces. Suspected cause, clipping.] SO QUESTION: How does power increase with room dimensions? All else equal, does it follow square feet or cubic feet? My current assumption is that I'm overdriving the amplifier, rated at 100 watts per. I'd like to get a change right, because in amplifiers, while power goes up like 1-2-3, price seems to go up like 1-2-4.
Love the videos Steve. I'm a younger fellow but seem to recall reading or hearing that during the era of the silver faced monster receiver systems they were so loud as to imitate a live performance. I do own a couple of these a Realistic STA-2100d and a Pioneer SX3900 but no speakers rated that high. I have in one room a Pioneer SX626 rated to 20-30 watts running a pair of old advents. The Advents which you know are not very efficient are rated to around 70 watts. My question though while the SX626 sounds fine and I don't feel the need to turn the volume up more than say 40% to fill the small room is there any written or unwritten rules to pairing systems with regard to wattage? Should I not put say a pair of Esquire 200's which have very high efficiency on the Pioneer SX3900 or likewise a pair of Advents on a very low 1 watt tube amp? Basically, other than ensuring the resistance of the coils are compatible with the system can or will this damage either the speaker and\or receiver pairing them up in this way?
aparneomai I recommend you ask this at an audio forum. Like AudioKarma for instance. You need to understand how it all works to understand what goes with what, but your biggest worry is underpowering, and turning it up too much to get the volume you want. Then running it into clipping. But within reason as long as you're not clipping. You're fine. Sounds like you doing okay crazy loud. So you're probably fine. But no 1 watt amps on Advents. Lol
I have a pair I used to play on a 125 watt Sansui that was underrated. So they were probably getting like 140. I never had trouble, except one time I decided to see how loud they could get, and bottomed out the woofers, before I ran out of steam on the receiver. No harm done though. They'll scare you before that happens, because they'll be so loud. They did me. I was just too slow with the volume control, because it's not a normal knob. Freaked me out actually.
But these are pretty sensitive to overpowering. Most speakers aren't like this. The tweeters blow very easy on the original ones too. And most speaker ratings are just rough guesses. Read some reviews where they do power tests, and you'll see speakers rated at 150, or so that don't run into trouble, until like 600-900 watts, or even more sometimes. Most speakers like more power. Some sound way better with it too. Even at low volume. I have at least 3 pairs that are like this. They wake right up when you give them a couple, or three hundred watts. My Pinnacle PN8+'s sound amazing with 200 watts from my high current amp, but just average on my receivers, even the big Sansui. And they're not rated to handle that. But they do just fine.
I get your explanation, and I thoroughly enjoy your videos. I have a question, You say you can tell how good an amp is by how it is rated at lower ohms, well I happen to have the King of vintage Sansui amps, BA-5000 300 wpc at 8,4,and 2 ohms, the power rating doesn't increase with the lower ohm loads. Does this mean my amp is not good? (rhetorical)
Awesome shirt!
Did you go to college? Very informative videos
Don't forget classical music with its often huge dynamic range. With speakers of average sensitivity - 88 db - you really do need a lot of Watts to be able to listen at exciting levels, without compression and clipping ! And if the impedance curve of the speakers dips down below 4 Ohm at low frequencies even a lot of Watts may prove not to be enough ! Horses for courses !
Headphones. More headphones!
So my Emotiva 50 watts Elac b6 speakers that system goes super loud so 40 is half way up 80 is max I run it at 65. I live in a small studio. Do the Nordst cables help?. Like no distortion I can hear.
My 100 watt 5 channel Free Denon destroyed. Two outlets in my apartment. People move out and leave audio gear behind .
Hi Steve, can you help me please? My B&W 804 D3 speakers have a sensitivity of 89 dB and recommended amp power is 50-200 watts into 8 ohms. My Arcam AVR850 amp puts out 120 watts into 8 ohms (2 channels driven).
My listening room is 20 feet long by 9 feet wide by 8 feet tall and I sit 11 feet from the speakers. A lot of people have told me that the 804's are too big for my room. Others tell me that the speakers need a better amp than the Arcam 850 and recommend me getting a 200 watt power amplifier to drive them - even though I don't listen at very loud volumes. Does more power going in to the speakers make them sound better at the same listening volume? I'm really confused. Thanks.
That’s hard to say, as Arcam makes very good AVR’s especially the Class G amps which I think the 850 is. How loud do you typically listen?
Well said! You should do this for money.
50 to 100w is to fuck neighbors... 15w is more than enough!
Did you know you look like Larry David with hair?
The evil that men do. 100 watts is not 100 watts. The great lie.
AVR's:
"100 wpc" BUT , it's measured at 1khz ONLY, up to 10% THD.
ACTUAL output: about 35 watts.
This is true up to and including $2500+ ATMOS AVR's.
My "180 wpc" Denon AVR could NOT drive my ATC SCM-12 worth a crap.
REAL 100 wpc: specified: "100 wpc, both channels driven, 20hz-20khz at less than 1% THD"
What ever happened to damping factor ? look it up clones..basic Audio 101
Audio Junkabus agreed very important factor