Great video man. I'm a big fan of the cork belt and scotchbrite. Would love to see a video on those as well. Lately I've been going 60 grit ceramic, 120 J-felex, 220 Jflex, 320 Jflex 400 cork, scotchbrite. I'll need to try some of the sugestions you made here!
Hey man! First of all - I am very humbled by your presence mate thanks for watching! Both the 3M Scotch-Brite and the Cork Belts are absolutely game changers - when used correctly (as you know very well). I will definitely make a video on this topic for sure so stay tuned mate! May I ask what make/brand of ceramic belts you currently use? What have you tried in the past too as a comparison? Your grit progression looks smooth and seems like it's working well for you but if there was ONE THING you would like to improve in your current belt polishing process - what would that be?
@@UKBladeshow "as you know very well" 😂 - Man I learned a ton from your video and the presentation of the info was great. I honestly haven't done a lot of detailed compairison as I should... I've been buying some of the cheaper ceramics (VSM). I've also played around a little with the bluefire belts and norton blaze. They all seem to work fairly similar to me, but it's hard to tell since I don't grind production batches. For me it's one knife at a time most of the time. That being said, I'd love to learn which is the best/longest lasting. For me some of the belt selection comes down to what I can cut nice plunges with... I've had a heck of a time trying to get nice even plunges with gator belts. For that reason I've landed on focusing on my plunges with a J-Flex 120 grit hung over the side of the platen. But I'm not 100% committed to this. I've been using a waterfall platen with a j-flex belt as well and it seems to produce some nice plunges. I was thinking of trying to get a trizact j-flex for that waterfall set up so that I have less belt bump. I've been contemplating giving up on the machine plunges by throwing on a file guide, grinding 80% of the plunges in straight (no sweep), and then finishing it perfect with files. Or better yet, finding a chainsaw round file with a diameter that matches my waterfall platen... Then I could get close, file it in perfect, and clean up with the waterfull to a high grit. Anyways, sorry for the mind dump here. Just been thinking about that specifically, lately.
Hey man really flattering to hear you share your current process and I hope my input could be valuable. Please see my comments below: VSM Belts are actually great! Their XK870X are decent quality at a good price, but as you can imagine, I’d pick a Cubitron II (3M) anytime over those for two main reasons if I was making knives in small batches: (1) cut rate will be important to me and would want to get to the next grit as quickly as I possibly can and (2) Cubitron II is a Precision-Shaped Grain which means it was engineered to break down on certain pressure and produce a finer finish than an equivalent VSM XK870X grit, leaving you a nicer finish which means lesser scratch marks to clean up, which also could mean less hand sanding! Again, if you found that sweet spot of pressure, it will last longer than most ceramic belts! You are correct with not using a 337DC Gator belt for a waterfall platen as it doesn’t have the backing flexibility to cope with that effectively; I would continue using a J-Flex belt but definitely do give the Trizact 307EA (JE backing) or a Trizact 217EA (JFlex backing, more flexible than a JE). Again, a very common mistake that a number of people I have seen make over the years is to reduce their polishing, they spend too much time on improvements and focusing on the finer grades not realising that you may be better off improving the rougher grits that you use as you won’t have to refine the scratches you don’t put there in the first place. I hope that makes sense 😂🤣😍 No need to apologise man as I am delighted to help anyone who is open to suggestions. Like I said on the video, there’s no one way of grinding and no one’s right and wrong - but having the extra knowledge might help you improve your process and get the job done with a shorter takt time 🍻 - Vinz
@@RedBeardOps I have also tried the Norton Blaze and the Shredder belts and run the VSM. I think part of my problem with the better belts is I only have 1hp on my grinder. The grinder at the machine shop I work at is a 3hp beast and you can 100% tell the difference when using better belts on materials like stainless and hardened d2. Still haven't found a belt that works well on CPM M4 post heat treat...
Thanks. It’s the beauty of collaboration. We are fortunate to be surrounded with talented and generous knife makers who want to share their knowledge back to others like us.
@UK Bladeshow haha collaboration is actually the idea behind my sword company idea. Most companies get stuck when trying to transition from one style to another. The whole niche and expertise thing. However, if your niche is being into everything and knowing who experts are, then you can more easily cover a wider range by collaborating. Also works for production scale and cost reduction in many ways. And also works its way up for higher end items were cost reduction isn't necessarily the most important thing. Base example, have some engraving artists you can have available. Even if you aren't supplying all their business, you help them out they help you out. If you need alot of engraving work without hurting their local business and sales work other customers it's possible to use multiple different engravers and they don't necessarily have to be in the same areas as each other. The faster work done can be a trade off for needing to outsource to multiples. Gonna try and use that concept for katana hilt wraps. Not gonna eat up a single artists entire schedule but spread alot of work around to many artists so they have less dead spells and get a full schedule even during normally slow periods. But ensures uber high quality mount from someone with years and years of expertise at a cost effective price point for a higher end sword with a production scale fast enough to work for higher productivity. Might also try helping knife and sword makers out with bulk buying a few types of steel and breaking it down to more easily buy able sizes. Few modified alloys or just ones not really produced anymore. 1078 being an example, really good for any differential hardening work. Or tweaking certain alloys to reduce manganese content for hamon activity or adding some vanadium for hardness levels while keeping carbon content tweaked for other things. But 5 tons per steel alloy minimum order. Spreading that around makes it easier to do. Even if I may need 8,000 to 11000 pounds of steel per year just for production numbers. And minimum orders are never most cost effective. And then hilt Parts and bare blades for mounters. But lol literally collaboration as the niche. It's an amazing business model, and I'm glad it's working out for you.
Thanks! A deep dive and backing, abrasive types and their grinding properties & requirements would be excellent. It'd take a lot of guesswork out of buying belts.
Everyone has their own way of grinding ! Living in South Africa , we struggle to get hold of some of the stuff that is freely available elsewhere in the world ! So here is my recipe , i push quite hard on my grinder , so i need something that can work hard for me ! I start off with a 60 grit VSM XK877Z belt as i find very little difference in speed of material removing between 24,36 and 60 grit ! Then i move to a VSM XK870f in 180 grit then to a 400 grit VSM XK870f and finally finish on 800 grit VSM KK511F before moving on to hand sanding ! I have never had a good experience with clustered abrasive belts (trizact , Norrax or VSM ) so i have stopped using them ! the cubitron 2 belts are not available here at all so i have never tried them
VSM are fantastic belts too in my opinion! I am certain GFS Knife Supplies sell worldwide, just not sure if shipping would make it economic for you (maybe buy it in bulk with some of your friends?). www.gfsknifesupplies.com/Grinders-Abrasives/accessories Thanks again for being a subscriber Jack!
@@UKBladeshow import duties and shipping are an issue , but that is not the only reason . I get really good service from Pferd South Africa , and if i have something go wrong with any of the products that i bought from them , they sort it out quickly and painlessly 👍🏻 and that is why i prefer doing business with them rather than going through the trouble of importing . As for my subscription , i like learning , and there is always something to learn . I also like sharing my knowledge and experience
Hi Vince, greetings from a friend across the pond! Thank you for all the great information! As a newbie knife-maker this info is invaluable (I took a lot of notes!) and I look forward to putting it to use! Be well!
Great video! And yes, I'd love a deeper dive into understanding belts. I suspect I wear through mine too quickly. I saw a guy use a piece of carbide on a belt to clean it, so I'd be curious about cleaning tips.
Hi Philip thanks for the comment and the feedback! Abrasive belts is one of those essential tools for knife making that if used properly, can save you a lot of time & money! Yes, you can also use diamond dressing tool for cleaning the belt and give it another fresh cut. I seem to have a number of people asking for more information on belts so I’ll do a video on it soon! Thanks again! - Vinz
I’m old school, I use files and diamond homes with a little cutting oil. Chalk those files and you’ll get a scratchless finish. Tap Magic is my preferred cutting fluid when using diamond hones and sanding paper. But, then again, I work on guns that are to be engraved and the panels must be flattened and polished to a mirror finish.
You have confirmed and added technical knowledge for something that I have worked out through my own trial and error over the last 12 years. I use the 984f in 60+ for initial profile and nlade grind, then 120+ to refine it, I then jump to the 337DC for scratch removal and work progressively through A100, A65, A45, and A30. From there I go to green Rouge on a 10 inch hard wheel at 3600 rpm and finish with pink. This gives me a mirror finish on my blades. I have tried many brands out there and am still willing to try new products however I have always come back to this progression as it is the most efficient I have found. Thanks for the video Joshua O'Crowley The Ogre's Forge
Hi Joshua thanks for the feedback! I am also a fan of the 3M 984F, especially in the 36+ and 60+! The only little drawback to the 984F is it requires even heavier pressure (than the 784F) to break down the grit and produce a fresh new cut. Other than that, I think it’s one of the best stock removal belts out there (plus leaves a better finish compared to a conventional ceramic equivalent like the Norton Blaze). Thanks again for sharing your comments and your grit progression that you’ve learnt through the years. May I ask what type of wheel do you use your Trizacts on? Or are you using it off the platen?
Hi ALP 77! Thanks for the feedback and happy to make a more in-depth guide to help all types of makers! Thank you and hope to see you in our other knife making videos too!
@@UKBladeshow I use a wore out Norton Blaze belt to shape & finish the spine of the blade. No issues with abrasive shelling because on a wore out belt they are buried in the glue.
I'd like to know more about what grinders are best to you. The the belt progression that I was taught was you start with 40 or 36 when you go to a 61 + 80 then a 120 220 and then a 400 or you go 350 to 500 and then from there unless you are working with etched Damascus then you use the buffing wheels with the different grits or compounds until you get the finish you desired.. I have also found out that some grinder belt sizes unless you get them custom-made they aren't very available
Hi Little Bear! If money wasn’t an option, I’d always suggest a variable speed grinder with at least 2HP for slower-running polishing. Your belt progression seem good enough, but what’s equally important is your abrasive choice. There are lots of great abrasive manufacturers out there but when used correctly, the Cubitron II will leave a finer finish (than an equivalent manufacturer’s grit) because of the technology behind it. Pressure is also equally important and more pressure may be the common suggestion but Cubitron II as an example does not require heavy pressure to get the stock removal rate you want - let the abrasive do the job for you (less fatigue for you)! I suggest you toy around with different pressures and find your sweet spot. Lastly, I’d look online for a “belt converter” as they are everywhere and will make you the belt size that you want (I used to work for one) and usually without massive minimum order quantities. Any other questions, please ask away!
I'm gratified to find knife-making content of this calibre. It's technical expertise, but not dry and stuffy. ( Which made me cringe away from another content creator). I learned using diamond to freshen a belt and actually looking at the belt. Thank you and subscribed
Hi and thank you for the super nice feedback! Lovely to hear that you enjoyed our video and hopefully I can produce more stuff to help other knife makers out there! Hope to see you in our other videos as well! - Vinz
Hi Pim thanks for the comment! Hopefully the video was of some help! Knowing your tools available may help you pick the best abrasives for your style of knife making!
I am yet to wear out a cubitron belt, they usually break, my fault as I am using them in ways they should not be used. I do have some old 36G grit belts and they get used for more and more dirty and non important grinding. I have one belt that is now 38 mm wide from use and still going strong. I only use the more worn belts for initial grinding of bevels before heat treat and always use new or newish belts for after heat treat. I have never had an issue with loading. I have also found that when a 36grit belts starts to slow down in its cut rate I turn it around on the grinder and it cuts faster! Have you noticed this?
Excellent point Sean! You won't be able to 'flip' the belt and still get a good cut with abrasive belts because of the way conventional abrasive grains look compared to the Cubitron II. If you've never had issue with loading then it is likely you are giving it enough pressure. Thanks for watching!
Great video!! Learned a lot in such a short amount of time. I am starting a knife sharpening service and have some questions. What brand of belt sander do you recommend? I will not be making the knives but will be bringing edges back after they go dull. What grit and how wide of belt do you recommend for refining process? Thank you!!
i perfer heavy backked belts, but i use a high end budget range grinder right when i can afored a better grinder my mind may change. i learned a bit more about abrasives and you answered some of the questions i have had and dont nesasarly think to ask about. thank you for making this video.
Hey buddy good afternoon and thanks for your lovely feedback! Heavy backed belts are great for grinding anything flat and making sharp plunge lines so great to hear you enjoy them! Investing in a good grinder and some good abrasive belts as a pair will increase your efficiency tenfold! Thanks for watching and hope to see you again on another video!
@@gundanium3126 you’re not the only one as there are a lot of people in knife making that do not like these. Personally, not because they are rubbish but because Silicon Carbide grit is for finer finishing. The great thing about silicon carbide is that they have very sharp edges compared to other abrasives (especially against brown/maroon aluminium oxide which is round-ish). The probes with silicon carbide is that the minerals themselves are brittle; this means they “break” easily to form another sharp grit and if you’re not careful, will not last very long. If I may suggest, use silicon carbide not on rough grits but use them when using very fine polishing such as 1000 grit +. In these way, you’ll get nicer finish than ali oxide and will not clog up as quick as well! I hope that helps!
Cheers man! I just need to gather what other common problems people face when grinding off and finishing their knives. Any challenges you want to share bud? Or perhaps any areas you feel is slowing you down?
Right on! We use the same belts! I fell in love with the cubi2's a while ago and havent turned back. I dont even care what they cost. Theyre worth it. Esp on a glass platen. The gators are key as well. Just never grind iron/wrought iron. It clogs them and its impossible to get out. I also found these light blue micron belts. I go to them after the a-ox trizact or i use them for sharpening. They have a fuzzy backing. Great video. I really like this channel. You guys ever go to Bladeshow Atlanta?
Hi Jack! Thanks for sharing us your preferred abrasive system and process. Thank you for the feedback as well! We would love to visit all the blade shows everywhere - one day I will travel beyond Europe but at the moment, I am focusing on making content from within Europe (flights are expensive hahaha)! Thanks again Jack and looking forward to chatting with you again soon! - Vinz
Hi Aaron! Thanks for watching! More than happy to do the in-depth video on the grinding belts, no problem! Are there particular problems you need help with or challenges you want to overcome?
Sounds good to me mate! If you feel you want to reduce hand sanding, try and see if you could work starting from a 60+ rather than the 36+ (unless you’re talking about grinding hardened steel already?). Also, throw in a bit of 3M Scotch-Brite in the Very Fine grade (VFA, blue in colour usually) and that is much more uniform at cleaning previous scratch marks, speeding up the hand sanding process later.
Cheers for the video, more info on belts and grinding would be really useful. Been making knives for a hobby for a little while but still lots to learn so vids like this are always really appreciated. Cheers, Pete
Cheers Peter! Nice to hear you enjoyed the video! On top of more knife grinding belts vids, we also have an extensive series coming on steel selection and heat treatment of knives if that’s of interest?
@@UKBladeshow look forward to those articles. Only just recently found the channel and I am really enjoying the content, thanks for putting these together and sharing the knowledge. Pete
Thanks for the feedback and lovely to hear you’re enjoying the content! We also showcase knife makers from around the UK - check out this series with Les: Makers Gonna Make - Leszek Sikon ua-cam.com/play/PLFssspwgISv-ioWKUvuk4Lb5KhnaHGArI.html
Hi Michael! Thanks and welcome to the UK Bladeshow 🥳 Please feel free to let me know if you have other topics you need help with and we’ll do our best to make videos for these topics! - Vinz
Hi Clark thanks for the feedback! It seems like lots of people really do want to know more about belts for knife making so off I go on making another video! 🥳🥳🥳 - Vinz
Thanks Vinz, great content. I would like some more in depth tests and details on how surface conditioning belts can be used, what grits you recommended before them and if applying polishing compound to them actually makes a difference. My grit progression: 40 or 60 ceramic / 120 ceramic / 240 AlOx Conglomerate / 600 AlOx Conglomerates
Hey man thanks again for watching and hope you found some value in this vid! Surface Conditioning Belts are great tools a variety of tasks such as blending, surface prep, cleaning, refining or even achieving a certain Ra finish. On the other hand, it is not designed to replace conventional abrasive belts but depending on that you’re trying to achieve and your current process, it could be used to cut unnecessary steps and/or give you a consistent finish that is harder to achieve on a conventional abrasive belt. I’ll definitely make a video about pros, cons and ultimately, how SCB’s can beneficial for certain knife makers! I’ll talk to you about this soon as solving common stock-removal and finishing issues may help other makers too! Cheers Tobias!
Also, your current belt process is so efficient so it’ll be challenging for me to try and improve it but I’ll be more than happy to take on that task 🥰
I am interested in your understanding of belt speed & related factors. Safety is real concern. Hanging a knife blade up on a 6500 SFM abrasive belt will send the knife flying on an unpredictable path ( 74 MPH or 118 KPH ).
Hi Daniel thanks for the comment! Yes, safety is always something we should be not just mindful of, but it should be number one on our list! I’m no PPE expert but always wear your chain mail or thick leather apron, goggles, ear defenders and respiratory protection are also a must. Do you feel it would be worth doing a video just on PPE?
Yes, understanding the stability & safety factors of PPE with knives projected toward them would be very interesting. Note . . . Big error in my math 6500 SFM = ( 1.2 MPH or 1.9 KPH ). I run my platen laid back at a 45 degree with the belts running up & away from me to minimize my risk.
Is there any chance you might be doing a video on Manchester Grinders ? I do really enjoy your vids , theres always plenty of info in them. All the best mate.😎👍
Hey man thanks for the feedback and the suggestion! I would love to reach out to Mike one day and see his grinders. I have seen quite a lot of people have them so I know they're good quality too! Thanks again! - Vinz
Any thoughts on belt grease or belt lube? I can't tell a difference with or without but some guys swear by it. Could be I'm applying too much pressure as Im seeing alot of grit breakage. Thanks for the tips on pressure. First video I've seen that covers that.
Hi! You’re very welcome! Belt grease and lube “can” be useful as it will reduce the friction between the belts and help cool it down. However, be careful on what you use as some of these chemicals may not be made for the belt and could affect the resin composition that holds the grit together. If you were to use a belt grease, make sure it was designed specifically for grinding belts. With your comment on the grit breaking, I highly suggest you try a softer duro backing (if working on contact wheel) or simply reduce your pressure. Hopefully that will prolong the life of your belts as they are not cheap are they! Thanks for watching!
Thanks Joe! Glad to hear you found the video useful! May I ask what your current belt progression is and where do you feel you spend the most time / money on?
Cheers Shaun! Believe it or not, this was a very difficult video to produce as I had to do a lot of planning before making the video! Thanks again for watching and see you again on the next one!
Hi gundanium! Great question! I do have some questions in return so I can help you: (1) What are the most common steels that you work with and what hardness HRC are they when you work with them? (2) Do you prefer quick stock removal or belt longevity? (3) What is your final finish for most of your knives (mirror finish/ satin finish/ etc)?
@@UKBladeshow sorry it too me so long to respond i don't often check my youtube email) 1 1075 and Ford leaf spring 5160(i like to work with leaf springs and always buy ford truck stuff) are what I mostly use along with Hitachi blue I like 26C3, and i like at about 59-55 HRC on the scratch test (i don't have room for anything bigger then the test files right now). 2: well, I forge to shape, so I prefer belt longevity. 3 i tend to go mirror hand finish as i like my end scratches going tip to the tang to express the beauty of the Hamons i form, starting at 220 right now but for time save want to start at around hand polishing at say 400. for a peasant use a set of pocket diamond stones to do it. As it's faster. however, i have also been experimenting with brute de forge finishes where i try to keep as much scale and on the blade as possible, and only clean the edge bevels i call this a peasant (sorry of if i got a word wrong) polish. and do this after quenching and tempering with no clean-up beforehand. the idea is backed in medieval times you would have to pay many craftsmen to get the tool so a highly polished blade would not be as cleaned up for the peasants as it would for nobles or clergy, as you may not be able to afford a polisher, however, I am still perfecting it as you only get one chase with it. so defiantly belt longevity, and I hate silicon carbide belts with my machine.
Good afternoon from Washington State, I am new at knife making, I have a 4" belt/disc sander, and a 1" (Harbor Freight) belt sander....can you recommend any specific 1" belts (grit) and anything that would help me do a better job on the knife blank? Thanks Mike
Good afternoon Mike and thanks for reaching out! It depends on what you intent to use it for as you’d usually use a different belt for metals and one for wood/kydex etc. If you want a versatile multi-material belt, check out the Norton R929 SG Belts which has a friable ceramic grain with Seeded Gel (SG) that helps keep the belt from clogging. It’s also cheaper than the 3M Cubitron II so you can use this as a good all-around starting point. When grinding the knife blanks, I suggest you use a worn belt first to remove the heavy burrs and prolong the life of your newer belts. Try and learn to find your own “medium pressure “ - you’ll know this when your removing metal quick but not causing discolouration on the steel. I hope this helps!
That narrator aren't as abrasive as i expected. Btw as an amateur blade fancier that cant even differentiate type of steel, i love your contents and just start binging it. It may not add any skill but at least itll help me to indentify real character against marketing buzzwords.
Hahahaha! Hi Dimas thanks for the feedback and lovely to hear that you’re enjoying the content that we have! I suggest you check out other makers that we showcase, see some playlists that might be good for you below: Mosaic Damascus: ua-cam.com/play/PLFssspwgISv--BoDbM0IsriiSLlgeK5AE.html Cold forging blades: ua-cam.com/play/PLFssspwgISv85rxZBb9orfjvC4DGe0RBM.html Feather-Pattern Damascus: ua-cam.com/play/PLFssspwgISv8GPuCp4SMpQ2_BInVG-0SJ.html
Go into detail on belt speed. It's the most critical detail that is overlooked. You're just not going to get the life out of ceramics if you run them too slow. There's a reason industrial applications often exceed 8,000 sfpm.
Hi M E. Thanks for the input and you are correct, belt speed gets overlooked a lot. I can share information on recommended speeds for the common type of abrasives on the next video if that’s of interest?
@@UKBladeshow Yes, that would be interesting with your background in the abrasives industry. There are many people sanding steel instead of grinding. Just a quick bit of math reveals that even 4 1/2" angle grinders run at 11k+ sfpm. A quality flap style wheel on an angle grinder will remove a lot of steel for the amount of usable abrasive they have. This is an example that most people can grasp.
@@ME-pb2gf hi M E lovely to be speaking with someone who understands this - yes! I will definitely make more videos on this topic. And you are right, I used to put a 25mm disc sander to remove welds and people get surprised that a smaller diameter disc can remove stock quicker not realising the rpm and the type of abrasive makes a massive difference.
@@UKBladeshow No doubt the cubitrons are very good but they also cost a bit. Trizacts aren't cheap either. Where as I understand you get what you pay for, it would be helpful with a budget version using the £5-7 belts.
I'm pretty happy with my steel grinding. I use mostly cubitron2 and trizact belts. However I'm still looking for good belts in all grit sizes that work well with stabilised wood and plastics. The cubitron is expensive and loads up in a way a belt cleaning stick doesn't do the job. Thnx
Hi IP great question and great to hear you’re having success with Cubitron II and Trizacts! It depends on what wood and what plastics you are sanding but if you are not having success with the Cubitron II, I would consider the following (again, all dependent on your type of wood/plastic?
Definitely try A/O aluminum oxide belts on wood. G-10 is tough! Might have to mess with pressures and if you can get scalloped edge belts to keep things more controllable in the curves
@@UKBladeshow stabillised woods in general and stuff like micarta, juma, acryllic,... not extremely tough, but it tends to gum up the Cubitron fast. Also the pyramid structure of rhe cubiteon needs to break in order to stay sharp, this won't happen with handle materials.
Hi ssunfish great input thank you. Scalloped edge are fantastic- we used to supply these a lot on portable belt files (Dynafiles) in the automotive industry for grinding fillet welds or just getting into tight areas and complex grinding. Thank you again!
Hi again IP Knives and thanks for the reply. If they are gumming-up too much on your belt, it could be because it’s heating them up too quickly. Acrylics as an example, have very low heat resistance so you have a number of ways you can solve this but the easiest method I can think of is to use an “open-coated” belt. I remember a product before (bot sure if it’s still available) called Klingspor CS311Y. Only issue I may see with it is that it has a stiff backing but other than that, it will be good for sanding wood without clogging it up too quickly. Read more about it here: www.klingspor.co.uk/products/belts/cs-311-y-act-1
Hey. Have you used, or heard anything about the trizact 953fa ceramic abrasive belts? I just ordered some to try for the first time, in the past ive used a few other varieties of the trizact belts, but had never seen these ones before. They havent come in the mail yet so i have't had the chance to try the as of yet.
Hey buddy thanks for the message. I have not personally used 953FA but I believe that’s been out for a long time. What I know about it is that it’s a X-weight (semi-stiff) flexible backing; so it’s not got the 307EA backing flexibility and not as stiff as the 337DC. It’d be good to hear if you feel any difference, especially when you’re polishing the different facets.
@@UKBladeshow sure. When they get here ill update this after giving them a try. Im really interested to see if it does any better polishing the high vanadium (and other alloy) content steels i often use. Those tend to start glazing belts, and they just start burnishing at around 120 grit when using more traditional abrasives, in my experience. So if i can make this work, and save myself from having to buy $100 dollar diamond micron polishing belts, to save time hand sanding, that would be amazing.
Don’t forget as well that most (if not all) 3M Trizact belts are meant to be ran at slower RPMs. You are not meant to put too much pressure either (unlike Cubitron II’s). Try a combination of doing both as that should have an implication on the longevity and performance of the Trizact belt.
@@UKBladeshow of course. I do know that the for sure the trizact 337dc, which are the normal gator grit are meant for low speed, low pressure, and shouldn't be used with water cooling sprays. However the 347fc are made to be used with high(er) pressure, higher speed applications, and are made to be able to be used with water. I think even the "high pressure" ones, are still made to be used with lower pressure than cubitron though.
Hey bud sorry for the late reply. Yes, 337DC (or the others 307EA and 237AA) are all designed for use with medium to low pressure. 3M made the technology behind Trizact as macro-replicated abrasives, which is designed to lower operator fatigue and consistent finishes.
Really interesting video! Good to see you back. Getting the belt grinding part of making right is tricky for me and I'm struggling to figure out how to do it better. My grit progression, if you can call it that, is 60 then 120 ceramic on my tiny 1x36. No VFD obviously and can't grind lengthways. Can't seem to find the thickness to stop using the 60 when there's enough metal left to get all the 60 scratches out with the 120. As a result there's no point in using higher grits and I end up doing a lot of hand sanding >_< Tried a gator belt but it just glazes over and stops cutting really quickly. Perhaps I'll try it again with more pressure but it doesn't take much pressure to just stall the grinder.
Hi Rob! Thanks for watching bud! Great question by the way and let’s try and see how we can solve that. If you have a slower motor single-speed, I’d suggest you move away from ceramic or try a friable ceramic grain. Friable grits like the Norton R929 breaks down easy with little pressure but you still get a good cut rate; I wouldn’t suggest the shredder or something like that unless your grinder has the horsepower behind it. You can also consider a high quality Al/Oxide belt like the 3M 384F? I can get you some samples and see whether that can work? As mentioned on the video, if you’re having to do tonnes of hand sanding, it may be because you’re putting too much deep scratches early on. I really feel trying the 3M 384F or a Norton R929 would help with your issue. To warn you though, the trade off would be a slightly slower stock removal on the P60->P120 BUT, less hand sanding potentially if done correctly. Whatcha say?
I had to go look up what "friable" meant! I have a couple of the Norton R969s, I was doing some comparative tests between them and the ceramic shredders to see which cut cooler and longer. I prefer the Nortons' feel but I have a bunch of shredders lying about. I'll get through them eventually but I won't worry about then blunting quickly. They're now just semi-sacrificial as I bought them without really understanding about pressure and grinding. Profile shaping for them. I'll pop a few 384Fs in the basket when I next order from GFS. It's where I get all my abrasives and steel atm. I could well be putting in too many deep scratches early on. I think the root cause is lack of experience as I'm just a hobby maker who does it when I feel like it instead of daily like the pros. I've learned a lot of theory from various sources including YT, putting it into practice and muscle memory is the thing. I'm definitely up for trying different belts to see if it helps. I don't know how much difference it makes but the last few knives I've made have been hardened before bevel grinding. Partly due to it being easier to keep straight and partly because I've been trying stainless pre-hardened by Graham Clarke
Hi Taters, just in case you weren’t aware, GFS Knife Supplies sells a lot of British-made steel (I am certain a lot of it is actually from Sheffield as a matter of fact): www.gfsknifesupplies.com/News/ArtMID/420/ArticleID/22/New-British-Made-1095-Sizes-Available
Hi choojoo! You’ll get there one day for sure! If you are interested in other knife makers that started from angle grinders or just hand files, check out Alfie of Cabin Knives (London): ua-cam.com/video/ewk-1dPLEK0/v-deo.html
Hi updanaki! Good question! I suggest the 3M Cubitron II 784F as it is a relatively flexible backing that can get into tight corners. As a matter of fact it’s used in “beltfiles” or Dynafiles in the aerospace and automotive industry where they use it to clean corner welds etc. have you tried the 3M Cubitron II before?
@@UKBladeshow I’ve used cubitron 2 a few times in the past in 36 and 60 grit for rough blade grinding. I didn’t notice enough increase in life to justify the extra cost over a vsm ceramic belt which for me is half the price. However I have noticed my ceramic belt resin cracking like the image you showed for a small wheel damage. Ill try cubitron again, particularly for tight radius.
VSM Ceramics are very good 👍 Depending on which VSM belt you are using, I feel the main advantage of the 3M 784F is the Precision Shaped Grain that micro fractures- you may not notice it when doing small batches of job but the Cubitron II grain will leave a better finish on a like-for-like grit comparison if that makes sense. I’d suggest you revisit the Cubitron II you were using, and control the amount of pressure you apply (less is more sometimes, again, all dependent on how much stock you have to remove). It will save you a lot of hand sanding in the later part of your finishing compared to a conventional ceramic belt would.
@@UKBladeshow will do. Thanks for the information. I never considered the abrasive use and finishing time after the rough grind in my comparison before. I will keep it in mind . Thanks again.
You’re welcome! The general rule of thumb with finishing is try and start with a finer grit if you can as it will put in lesser heavy marks, so less cleaning of those previous scratch marks when hand sanding! Although I am not a professional knife maker, I can still achieve decent finishes with very minimal hand sanding, and that’s because I start with higher grits (60+ Cubitron II rather than a 36+). Happy to have you on this channel and we hope you’ll enjoy the other knife-making-related content we put out there! Thanks!
Hi 👋 and yes you are correct. It’s an issue with an inexperienced content creator but hopefully a big lesson learnt for me 🤣🥳 hopefully the video still made sense
Hi hey daddy. Yes, this is a fact. I work for a company that manufactures abrasive belts, one of the largest in the world actually. Thank you for watching.
Am I crazy for never wanting a knife on any motorized belt or wheel without water on it. I believe even the lightest belt use will affect hardness in very small areas along blade edge. I would love to see real scientific analysis and electron microscopy on this. We know how hot those sparks are so to me it is obvious that those sparks have enough heat to affect the atoms along the blade edge. IMO if it sparks you need water on it while grinding.
Hi Markas! Thanks for your comments. I myself would be interested in seeing a water wheel vs a belt grinder too! If that video was interesting, check out the rest of other pro tips we have HERE: ua-cam.com/play/PLFssspwgISv-q8YPgoAg1XNZYw9YbMkJT.html
Great video, thanks! I'd love to see that chart you teased us with! I've been thinking about asking gfs to do some kind of quick reference chart on the different kind of belts, but if you've got one, it would be ace. Thanks again, Andy @adel_knives
Hi Andy! I have been thinking about compiling a list of pros and cons of all the known belts we know in knife making so yeah, happy to test them so we know which one is which for each application!
Great video man. I'm a big fan of the cork belt and scotchbrite. Would love to see a video on those as well. Lately I've been going 60 grit ceramic, 120 J-felex, 220 Jflex, 320 Jflex 400 cork, scotchbrite. I'll need to try some of the sugestions you made here!
Hey man! First of all - I am very humbled by your presence mate thanks for watching! Both the 3M Scotch-Brite and the Cork Belts are absolutely game changers - when used correctly (as you know very well). I will definitely make a video on this topic for sure so stay tuned mate!
May I ask what make/brand of ceramic belts you currently use? What have you tried in the past too as a comparison? Your grit progression looks smooth and seems like it's working well for you but if there was ONE THING you would like to improve in your current belt polishing process - what would that be?
@@UKBladeshow "as you know very well" 😂 - Man I learned a ton from your video and the presentation of the info was great. I honestly haven't done a lot of detailed compairison as I should... I've been buying some of the cheaper ceramics (VSM). I've also played around a little with the bluefire belts and norton blaze. They all seem to work fairly similar to me, but it's hard to tell since I don't grind production batches. For me it's one knife at a time most of the time. That being said, I'd love to learn which is the best/longest lasting.
For me some of the belt selection comes down to what I can cut nice plunges with... I've had a heck of a time trying to get nice even plunges with gator belts. For that reason I've landed on focusing on my plunges with a J-Flex 120 grit hung over the side of the platen. But I'm not 100% committed to this. I've been using a waterfall platen with a j-flex belt as well and it seems to produce some nice plunges. I was thinking of trying to get a trizact j-flex for that waterfall set up so that I have less belt bump.
I've been contemplating giving up on the machine plunges by throwing on a file guide, grinding 80% of the plunges in straight (no sweep), and then finishing it perfect with files. Or better yet, finding a chainsaw round file with a diameter that matches my waterfall platen... Then I could get close, file it in perfect, and clean up with the waterfull to a high grit.
Anyways, sorry for the mind dump here. Just been thinking about that specifically, lately.
Hey man really flattering to hear you share your current process and I hope my input could be valuable. Please see my comments below:
VSM Belts are actually great! Their XK870X are decent quality at a good price, but as you can imagine, I’d pick a Cubitron II (3M) anytime over those for two main reasons if I was making knives in small batches: (1) cut rate will be important to me and would want to get to the next grit as quickly as I possibly can and (2) Cubitron II is a Precision-Shaped Grain which means it was engineered to break down on certain pressure and produce a finer finish than an equivalent VSM XK870X grit, leaving you a nicer finish which means lesser scratch marks to clean up, which also could mean less hand sanding! Again, if you found that sweet spot of pressure, it will last longer than most ceramic belts!
You are correct with not using a 337DC Gator belt for a waterfall platen as it doesn’t have the backing flexibility to cope with that effectively; I would continue using a J-Flex belt but definitely do give the Trizact 307EA (JE backing) or a Trizact 217EA (JFlex backing, more flexible than a JE). Again, a very common mistake that a number of people I have seen make over the years is to reduce their polishing, they spend too much time on improvements and focusing on the finer grades not realising that you may be better off improving the rougher grits that you use as you won’t have to refine the scratches you don’t put there in the first place. I hope that makes sense 😂🤣😍
No need to apologise man as I am delighted to help anyone who is open to suggestions. Like I said on the video, there’s no one way of grinding and no one’s right and wrong - but having the extra knowledge might help you improve your process and get the job done with a shorter takt time 🍻
- Vinz
@@UKBladeshow Good stuff Vinz! I'll have to try some of those out
@@RedBeardOps I have also tried the Norton Blaze and the Shredder belts and run the VSM. I think part of my problem with the better belts is I only have 1hp on my grinder. The grinder at the machine shop I work at is a 3hp beast and you can 100% tell the difference when using better belts on materials like stainless and hardened d2. Still haven't found a belt that works well on CPM M4 post heat treat...
This is quickly becoming one of my favorite channels.
Thanks bud! I appreciate the feedback!
- Vinz
@UK Bladeshow so many different makers with different techniques and such. Good place to quickly pick up alot of Info to think about.
Thanks. It’s the beauty of collaboration. We are fortunate to be surrounded with talented and generous knife makers who want to share their knowledge back to others like us.
@UK Bladeshow haha collaboration is actually the idea behind my sword company idea.
Most companies get stuck when trying to transition from one style to another. The whole niche and expertise thing. However, if your niche is being into everything and knowing who experts are, then you can more easily cover a wider range by collaborating.
Also works for production scale and cost reduction in many ways. And also works its way up for higher end items were cost reduction isn't necessarily the most important thing.
Base example, have some engraving artists you can have available. Even if you aren't supplying all their business, you help them out they help you out. If you need alot of engraving work without hurting their local business and sales work other customers it's possible to use multiple different engravers and they don't necessarily have to be in the same areas as each other. The faster work done can be a trade off for needing to outsource to multiples.
Gonna try and use that concept for katana hilt wraps. Not gonna eat up a single artists entire schedule but spread alot of work around to many artists so they have less dead spells and get a full schedule even during normally slow periods. But ensures uber high quality mount from someone with years and years of expertise at a cost effective price point for a higher end sword with a production scale fast enough to work for higher productivity.
Might also try helping knife and sword makers out with bulk buying a few types of steel and breaking it down to more easily buy able sizes. Few modified alloys or just ones not really produced anymore. 1078 being an example, really good for any differential hardening work. Or tweaking certain alloys to reduce manganese content for hamon activity or adding some vanadium for hardness levels while keeping carbon content tweaked for other things.
But 5 tons per steel alloy minimum order. Spreading that around makes it easier to do. Even if I may need 8,000 to 11000 pounds of steel per year just for production numbers. And minimum orders are never most cost effective.
And then hilt Parts and bare blades for mounters. But lol literally collaboration as the niche. It's an amazing business model, and I'm glad it's working out for you.
Here in the US, The prices on these belts has gotten quite high. From just a few years ago.
Gotta love Bidenomics!
Thanks! A deep dive and backing, abrasive types and their grinding properties & requirements would be excellent. It'd take a lot of guesswork out of buying belts.
Hi Puskara! I’m definitely going to do a video on that! Thanks for taking time to comment!
- Vinz
As a novice knife maker the topics that you introduced here were mainly news to me.
THIS VIDEO IS MANNA FROM HEAVEN!
Thank you.
Cheers Al! Happy to hear you enjoyed the content!
Everyone has their own way of grinding ! Living in South Africa , we struggle to get hold of some of the stuff that is freely available elsewhere in the world ! So here is my recipe , i push quite hard on my grinder , so i need something that can work hard for me ! I start off with a 60 grit VSM XK877Z belt as i find very little difference in speed of material removing between 24,36 and 60 grit ! Then i move to a VSM XK870f in 180 grit then to a 400 grit VSM XK870f and finally finish on 800 grit VSM KK511F before moving on to hand sanding ! I have never had a good experience with clustered abrasive belts (trizact , Norrax or VSM ) so i have stopped using them ! the cubitron 2 belts are not available here at all so i have never tried them
VSM are fantastic belts too in my opinion! I am certain GFS Knife Supplies sell worldwide, just not sure if shipping would make it economic for you (maybe buy it in bulk with some of your friends?). www.gfsknifesupplies.com/Grinders-Abrasives/accessories
Thanks again for being a subscriber Jack!
@@UKBladeshow import duties and shipping are an issue , but that is not the only reason . I get really good service from Pferd South Africa , and if i have something go wrong with any of the products that i bought from them , they sort it out quickly and painlessly 👍🏻 and that is why i prefer doing business with them rather than going through the trouble of importing . As for my subscription , i like learning , and there is always something to learn . I also like sharing my knowledge and experience
Hi Vince, greetings from a friend across the pond! Thank you for all the great information! As a newbie knife-maker this info is invaluable (I took a lot of notes!) and I look forward to putting it to use! Be well!
Thanks for your kind words and I’m glad you found it useful!
Great video! And yes, I'd love a deeper dive into understanding belts. I suspect I wear through mine too quickly. I saw a guy use a piece of carbide on a belt to clean it, so I'd be curious about cleaning tips.
Hi Philip thanks for the comment and the feedback!
Abrasive belts is one of those essential tools for knife making that if used properly, can save you a lot of time & money! Yes, you can also use diamond dressing tool for cleaning the belt and give it another fresh cut.
I seem to have a number of people asking for more information on belts so I’ll do a video on it soon! Thanks again!
- Vinz
I’m old school, I use files and diamond homes with a little cutting oil. Chalk those files and you’ll get a scratchless finish. Tap Magic is my preferred cutting fluid when using diamond hones and sanding paper. But, then again, I work on guns that are to be engraved and the panels must be flattened and polished to a mirror finish.
Hi Richard thanks for your input and for sharing your work and process with us! Speak to you again soon!
You have confirmed and added technical knowledge for something that I have worked out through my own trial and error over the last 12 years. I use the 984f in 60+ for initial profile and nlade grind, then 120+ to refine it, I then jump to the 337DC for scratch removal and work progressively through A100, A65, A45, and A30. From there I go to green Rouge on a 10 inch hard wheel at 3600 rpm and finish with pink. This gives me a mirror finish on my blades. I have tried many brands out there and am still willing to try new products however I have always come back to this progression as it is the most efficient I have found. Thanks for the video
Joshua O'Crowley
The Ogre's Forge
Hi Joshua thanks for the feedback! I am also a fan of the 3M 984F, especially in the 36+ and 60+! The only little drawback to the 984F is it requires even heavier pressure (than the 784F) to break down the grit and produce a fresh new cut. Other than that, I think it’s one of the best stock removal belts out there (plus leaves a better finish compared to a conventional ceramic equivalent like the Norton Blaze).
Thanks again for sharing your comments and your grit progression that you’ve learnt through the years.
May I ask what type of wheel do you use your Trizacts on? Or are you using it off the platen?
A big + for a more in-depth look into knifemaking related abrasives. This was highly informative - thank you!
Hi ALP 77! Thanks for the feedback and happy to make a more in-depth guide to help all types of makers! Thank you and hope to see you in our other knife making videos too!
Another good tip to save belts is use a old belt to cut in your 45 degrees so you don't strip the grit of your new belts
Absolutely amazing tip! I should have added that too - maybe I’ll add it on the next video! Cheers buddy!
@@UKBladeshow I use a wore out Norton Blaze belt to shape & finish the spine of the blade. No issues with abrasive shelling because on a wore out belt they are buried in the glue.
Old belts also work amazing for wood. And pre hardened metal.
I'd like to know more about what grinders are best to you. The the belt progression that I was taught was you start with 40 or 36 when you go to a 61 + 80 then a 120 220 and then a 400 or you go 350 to 500 and then from there unless you are working with etched Damascus then you use the buffing wheels with the different grits or compounds until you get the finish you desired.. I have also found out that some grinder belt sizes unless you get them custom-made they aren't very available
Hi Little Bear! If money wasn’t an option, I’d always suggest a variable speed grinder with at least 2HP for slower-running polishing.
Your belt progression seem good enough, but what’s equally important is your abrasive choice. There are lots of great abrasive manufacturers out there but when used correctly, the Cubitron II will leave a finer finish (than an equivalent manufacturer’s grit) because of the technology behind it. Pressure is also equally important and more pressure may be the common suggestion but Cubitron II as an example does not require heavy pressure to get the stock removal rate you want - let the abrasive do the job for you (less fatigue for you)! I suggest you toy around with different pressures and find your sweet spot.
Lastly, I’d look online for a “belt converter” as they are everywhere and will make you the belt size that you want (I used to work for one) and usually without massive minimum order quantities.
Any other questions, please ask away!
I'm gratified to find knife-making content of this calibre. It's technical expertise, but not dry and stuffy. ( Which made me cringe away from another content creator). I learned using diamond to freshen a belt and actually looking at the belt. Thank you and subscribed
Hi and thank you for the super nice feedback! Lovely to hear that you enjoyed our video and hopefully I can produce more stuff to help other knife makers out there! Hope to see you in our other videos as well!
- Vinz
Really helpful video! Thanks a lot, I recently purchased a 2nd hand 2x72 and am looking for the belts I should buy.
Hi Pim thanks for the comment! Hopefully the video was of some help! Knowing your tools available may help you pick the best abrasives for your style of knife making!
It would be very Nice a complete video
Hi Vagner thanks for watching and yes, I will be more than happy to make a more comprehensive video soon! Thanks!
I am yet to wear out a cubitron belt, they usually break, my fault as I am using them in ways they should not be used. I do have some old 36G grit belts and they get used for more and more dirty and non important grinding. I have one belt that is now 38 mm wide from use and still going strong. I only use the more worn belts for initial grinding of bevels before heat treat and always use new or newish belts for after heat treat. I have never had an issue with loading. I have also found that when a 36grit belts starts to slow down in its cut rate I turn it around on the grinder and it cuts faster! Have you noticed this?
Excellent point Sean! You won't be able to 'flip' the belt and still get a good cut with abrasive belts because of the way conventional abrasive grains look compared to the Cubitron II. If you've never had issue with loading then it is likely you are giving it enough pressure. Thanks for watching!
I have belts that I still use regularly that are 16 years old. And I'm a full time knife maker. I use them till they completely fall apart.
That sounds amazing! Do you still know what that belt was?! Thanks for sharing!
Great video!! Learned a lot in such a short amount of time. I am starting a knife sharpening service and have some questions. What brand of belt sander do you recommend? I will not be making the knives but will be bringing edges back after they go dull. What grit and how wide of belt do you recommend for refining process? Thank you!!
Very informative like it as a hobbyist knife maker steels i understand but belts am on learning curve
Hi Mark! Thanks and appreciate your comments! Hope you are enjoying our other videos on the channel too!
i perfer heavy backked belts, but i use a high end budget range grinder right when i can afored a better grinder my mind may change. i learned a bit more about abrasives and you answered some of the questions i have had and dont nesasarly think to ask about. thank you for making this video.
Hey buddy good afternoon and thanks for your lovely feedback! Heavy backed belts are great for grinding anything flat and making sharp plunge lines so great to hear you enjoy them! Investing in a good grinder and some good abrasive belts as a pair will increase your efficiency tenfold!
Thanks for watching and hope to see you again on another video!
@@UKBladeshow PS i dont reallylike silica carbide belts.
@@gundanium3126 you’re not the only one as there are a lot of people in knife making that do not like these. Personally, not because they are rubbish but because Silicon Carbide grit is for finer finishing. The great thing about silicon carbide is that they have very sharp edges compared to other abrasives (especially against brown/maroon aluminium oxide which is round-ish). The probes with silicon carbide is that the minerals themselves are brittle; this means they “break” easily to form another sharp grit and if you’re not careful, will not last very long. If I may suggest, use silicon carbide not on rough grits but use them when using very fine polishing such as 1000 grit +. In these way, you’ll get nicer finish than ali oxide and will not clog up as quick as well! I hope that helps!
Great vid Vince! And I’d say go nuts with another video! Take us down the rabbit hole of grinding belts!👍🤓
Cheers man! I just need to gather what other common problems people face when grinding off and finishing their knives. Any challenges you want to share bud? Or perhaps any areas you feel is slowing you down?
Right on! We use the same belts! I fell in love with the cubi2's a while ago and havent turned back. I dont even care what they cost. Theyre worth it. Esp on a glass platen. The gators are key as well. Just never grind iron/wrought iron. It clogs them and its impossible to get out.
I also found these light blue micron belts. I go to them after the a-ox trizact or i use them for sharpening. They have a fuzzy backing.
Great video. I really like this channel. You guys ever go to Bladeshow Atlanta?
Hi Jack! Thanks for sharing us your preferred abrasive system and process. Thank you for the feedback as well!
We would love to visit all the blade shows everywhere - one day I will travel beyond Europe but at the moment, I am focusing on making content from within Europe (flights are expensive hahaha)!
Thanks again Jack and looking forward to chatting with you again soon!
- Vinz
Great video mate, a more in depth video on grinding would be very helpful, would love to see it
Hi Aaron! Thanks for watching! More than happy to do the in-depth video on the grinding belts, no problem! Are there particular problems you need help with or challenges you want to overcome?
my grit progression is 36, 60, 120, Trizact A100, A65 and hand sand from there. I also use a j flex 240 to set the plunge radius.
Sounds good to me mate! If you feel you want to reduce hand sanding, try and see if you could work starting from a 60+ rather than the 36+ (unless you’re talking about grinding hardened steel already?). Also, throw in a bit of 3M Scotch-Brite in the Very Fine grade (VFA, blue in colour usually) and that is much more uniform at cleaning previous scratch marks, speeding up the hand sanding process later.
Would like to see more on belts and usage Thank You
Hi Thomas! Thanks for taking to comment! No problem I will definitely put together a couple more videos on a deep dive on abrasive belts!
Cheers for the video, more info on belts and grinding would be really useful. Been making knives for a hobby for a little while but still lots to learn so vids like this are always really appreciated. Cheers, Pete
Cheers Peter! Nice to hear you enjoyed the video! On top of more knife grinding belts vids, we also have an extensive series coming on steel selection and heat treatment of knives if that’s of interest?
@@UKBladeshow look forward to those articles. Only just recently found the channel and I am really enjoying the content, thanks for putting these together and sharing the knowledge. Pete
Thanks for the feedback and lovely to hear you’re enjoying the content! We also showcase knife makers from around the UK - check out this series with Les: Makers Gonna Make - Leszek Sikon
ua-cam.com/play/PLFssspwgISv-ioWKUvuk4Lb5KhnaHGArI.html
I liked and subscribed! Most excellent content, thank you for sharing this with us!
Hi Michael! Thanks and welcome to the UK Bladeshow 🥳
Please feel free to let me know if you have other topics you need help with and we’ll do our best to make videos for these topics!
- Vinz
Thank you for the great information! Yes please on a deeper dive.
Hi Clark thanks for the feedback! It seems like lots of people really do want to know more about belts for knife making so off I go on making another video! 🥳🥳🥳
- Vinz
Thanks Vinz, great content. I would like some more in depth tests and details on how surface conditioning belts can be used, what grits you recommended before them and if applying polishing compound to them actually makes a difference.
My grit progression: 40 or 60 ceramic / 120 ceramic / 240 AlOx Conglomerate / 600 AlOx Conglomerates
Hey man thanks again for watching and hope you found some value in this vid!
Surface Conditioning Belts are great tools a variety of tasks such as blending, surface prep, cleaning, refining or even achieving a certain Ra finish. On the other hand, it is not designed to replace conventional abrasive belts but depending on that you’re trying to achieve and your current process, it could be used to cut unnecessary steps and/or give you a consistent finish that is harder to achieve on a conventional abrasive belt.
I’ll definitely make a video about pros, cons and ultimately, how SCB’s can beneficial for certain knife makers!
I’ll talk to you about this soon as solving common stock-removal and finishing issues may help other makers too! Cheers Tobias!
Also, your current belt process is so efficient so it’ll be challenging for me to try and improve it but I’ll be more than happy to take on that task 🥰
I am interested in your understanding of belt speed & related factors. Safety is real concern. Hanging a knife blade up on a 6500 SFM abrasive belt will send the knife flying on an unpredictable path ( 74 MPH or 118 KPH ).
Hi Daniel thanks for the comment! Yes, safety is always something we should be not just mindful of, but it should be number one on our list! I’m no PPE expert but always wear your chain mail or thick leather apron, goggles, ear defenders and respiratory protection are also a must. Do you feel it would be worth doing a video just on PPE?
Yes, understanding the stability & safety factors of PPE with knives projected toward them would be very interesting. Note . . . Big error in my math 6500 SFM = ( 1.2 MPH or 1.9 KPH ). I run my platen laid back at a 45 degree with the belts running up & away from me to minimize my risk.
Is there any chance you might be doing a video on Manchester Grinders ? I do really enjoy your vids , theres always plenty of info in them. All the best mate.😎👍
Hey man thanks for the feedback and the suggestion! I would love to reach out to Mike one day and see his grinders. I have seen quite a lot of people have them so I know they're good quality too! Thanks again!
- Vinz
No worries Vinz , love the channel and the content
Just found the channel. GREAT INFO! Ordering cubitron IIs this weekend.
Hi Anthony! Thanks for the feedback! Really appreciate you guys dropping by to comment! Hope to see you in our other knife making videos!
yes please more info on belts, what a great video thank you
Thanks Ironwood Jones! It seems like we have loads of people interested on the deep dive about abrasive belts!
Any thoughts on belt grease or belt lube? I can't tell a difference with or without but some guys swear by it. Could be I'm applying too much pressure as Im seeing alot of grit breakage. Thanks for the tips on pressure. First video I've seen that covers that.
Hi! You’re very welcome! Belt grease and lube “can” be useful as it will reduce the friction between the belts and help cool it down. However, be careful on what you use as some of these chemicals may not be made for the belt and could affect the resin composition that holds the grit together. If you were to use a belt grease, make sure it was designed specifically for grinding belts.
With your comment on the grit breaking, I highly suggest you try a softer duro backing (if working on contact wheel) or simply reduce your pressure. Hopefully that will prolong the life of your belts as they are not cheap are they!
Thanks for watching!
Awesome video, great info!👍👍
Thanks Joe! Glad to hear you found the video useful! May I ask what your current belt progression is and where do you feel you spend the most time / money on?
glad to see you back, amazing and informative as always
Cheers Shaun! Believe it or not, this was a very difficult video to produce as I had to do a lot of planning before making the video! Thanks again for watching and see you again on the next one!
What are the best belts to use on a single-speed grinder? I use budget grinder (2/42) as I can't afford the more expensive VSD units at this time.
Hi gundanium! Great question! I do have some questions in return so I can help you:
(1) What are the most common steels that you work with and what hardness HRC are they when you work with them?
(2) Do you prefer quick stock removal or belt longevity?
(3) What is your final finish for most of your knives (mirror finish/ satin finish/ etc)?
@@UKBladeshow sorry it too me so long to respond i don't often check my youtube email) 1 1075 and Ford leaf spring 5160(i like to work with leaf springs and always buy ford truck stuff) are what I mostly use along with Hitachi blue I like 26C3, and i like at about 59-55 HRC on the scratch test (i don't have room for anything bigger then the test files right now).
2: well, I forge to shape, so I prefer belt longevity.
3 i tend to go mirror hand finish as i like my end scratches going tip to the tang to express the beauty of the Hamons i form, starting at 220 right now but for time save want to start at around hand polishing at say 400. for a peasant use a set of pocket diamond stones to do it. As it's faster.
however, i have also been experimenting with brute de forge finishes where i try to keep as much scale and on the blade as possible, and only clean the edge bevels i call this a peasant (sorry of if i got a word wrong) polish. and do this after quenching and tempering with no clean-up beforehand. the idea is backed in medieval times you would have to pay many craftsmen to get the tool so a highly polished blade would not be as cleaned up for the peasants as it would for nobles or clergy, as you may not be able to afford a polisher, however, I am still perfecting it as you only get one chase with it. so defiantly belt longevity, and I hate silicon carbide belts with my machine.
Good afternoon from Washington State, I am new at knife making, I have a 4" belt/disc sander, and a 1" (Harbor Freight) belt sander....can you recommend any specific 1" belts (grit) and anything that would help me do a better job on the knife blank? Thanks Mike
Good afternoon Mike and thanks for reaching out!
It depends on what you intent to use it for as you’d usually use a different belt for metals and one for wood/kydex etc.
If you want a versatile multi-material belt, check out the Norton R929 SG Belts which has a friable ceramic grain with Seeded Gel (SG) that helps keep the belt from clogging. It’s also cheaper than the 3M Cubitron II so you can use this as a good all-around starting point.
When grinding the knife blanks, I suggest you use a worn belt first to remove the heavy burrs and prolong the life of your newer belts. Try and learn to find your own “medium pressure “ - you’ll know this when your removing metal quick but not causing discolouration on the steel.
I hope this helps!
That narrator aren't as abrasive as i expected.
Btw as an amateur blade fancier that cant even differentiate type of steel, i love your contents and just start binging it. It may not add any skill but at least itll help me to indentify real character against marketing buzzwords.
Hahahaha! Hi Dimas thanks for the feedback and lovely to hear that you’re enjoying the content that we have! I suggest you check out other makers that we showcase, see some playlists that might be good for you below:
Mosaic Damascus: ua-cam.com/play/PLFssspwgISv--BoDbM0IsriiSLlgeK5AE.html
Cold forging blades: ua-cam.com/play/PLFssspwgISv85rxZBb9orfjvC4DGe0RBM.html
Feather-Pattern Damascus: ua-cam.com/play/PLFssspwgISv8GPuCp4SMpQ2_BInVG-0SJ.html
Go into detail on belt speed. It's the most critical detail that is overlooked. You're just not going to get the life out of ceramics if you run them too slow. There's a reason industrial applications often exceed 8,000 sfpm.
Hi M E. Thanks for the input and you are correct, belt speed gets overlooked a lot. I can share information on recommended speeds for the common type of abrasives on the next video if that’s of interest?
@@UKBladeshow Yes, that would be interesting with your background in the abrasives industry.
There are many people sanding steel instead of grinding.
Just a quick bit of math reveals that even 4 1/2" angle grinders run at 11k+ sfpm. A quality flap style wheel on an angle grinder will remove a lot of steel for the amount of usable abrasive they have. This is an example that most people can grasp.
@@ME-pb2gf hi M E lovely to be speaking with someone who understands this - yes! I will definitely make more videos on this topic. And you are right, I used to put a 25mm disc sander to remove welds and people get surprised that a smaller diameter disc can remove stock quicker not realising the rpm and the type of abrasive makes a massive difference.
Super helpful, thank you
You’re very welcome! If you have any more questions about abrasive belts for knife making, I’ll be more than happy to help!
@@UKBladeshow No doubt the cubitrons are very good but they also cost a bit. Trizacts aren't cheap either. Where as I understand you get what you pay for, it would be helpful with a budget version using the £5-7 belts.
I'm pretty happy with my steel grinding. I use mostly cubitron2 and trizact belts. However I'm still looking for good belts in all grit sizes that work well with stabilised wood and plastics. The cubitron is expensive and loads up in a way a belt cleaning stick doesn't do the job. Thnx
Hi IP great question and great to hear you’re having success with Cubitron II and Trizacts! It depends on what wood and what plastics you are sanding but if you are not having success with the Cubitron II, I would consider the following (again, all dependent on your type of wood/plastic?
Definitely try A/O aluminum oxide belts on wood. G-10 is tough! Might have to mess with pressures and if you can get scalloped edge belts to keep things more controllable in the curves
@@UKBladeshow stabillised woods in general and stuff like micarta, juma, acryllic,... not extremely tough, but it tends to gum up the Cubitron fast. Also the pyramid structure of rhe cubiteon needs to break in order to stay sharp, this won't happen with handle materials.
Hi ssunfish great input thank you. Scalloped edge are fantastic- we used to supply these a lot on portable belt files (Dynafiles) in the automotive industry for grinding fillet welds or just getting into tight areas and complex grinding.
Thank you again!
Hi again IP Knives and thanks for the reply. If they are gumming-up too much on your belt, it could be because it’s heating them up too quickly. Acrylics as an example, have very low heat resistance so you have a number of ways you can solve this but the easiest method I can think of is to use an “open-coated” belt. I remember a product before (bot sure if it’s still available) called Klingspor CS311Y. Only issue I may see with it is that it has a stiff backing but other than that, it will be good for sanding wood without clogging it up too quickly. Read more about it here: www.klingspor.co.uk/products/belts/cs-311-y-act-1
Definitely a more in depth video would be awesome!!
Yay! Thanks for the comment Kevin and I will definitely make another video on abrasive belts for knife making!
Hey. Have you used, or heard anything about the trizact 953fa ceramic abrasive belts?
I just ordered some to try for the first time, in the past ive used a few other varieties of the trizact belts, but had never seen these ones before. They havent come in the mail yet so i have't had the chance to try the as of yet.
Hey buddy thanks for the message. I have not personally used 953FA but I believe that’s been out for a long time. What I know about it is that it’s a X-weight (semi-stiff) flexible backing; so it’s not got the 307EA backing flexibility and not as stiff as the 337DC. It’d be good to hear if you feel any difference, especially when you’re polishing the different facets.
@@UKBladeshow sure. When they get here ill update this after giving them a try.
Im really interested to see if it does any better polishing the high vanadium (and other alloy) content steels i often use. Those tend to start glazing belts, and they just start burnishing at around 120 grit when using more traditional abrasives, in my experience. So if i can make this work, and save myself from having to buy $100 dollar diamond micron polishing belts, to save time hand sanding, that would be amazing.
Don’t forget as well that most (if not all) 3M Trizact belts are meant to be ran at slower RPMs. You are not meant to put too much pressure either (unlike Cubitron II’s). Try a combination of doing both as that should have an implication on the longevity and performance of the Trizact belt.
@@UKBladeshow of course.
I do know that the for sure the trizact 337dc, which are the normal gator grit are meant for low speed, low pressure, and shouldn't be used with water cooling sprays.
However the 347fc are made to be used with high(er) pressure, higher speed applications, and are made to be able to be used with water.
I think even the "high pressure" ones, are still made to be used with lower pressure than cubitron though.
Hey bud sorry for the late reply.
Yes, 337DC (or the others 307EA and 237AA) are all designed for use with medium to low pressure. 3M made the technology behind Trizact as macro-replicated abrasives, which is designed to lower operator fatigue and consistent finishes.
Really interesting video! Good to see you back.
Getting the belt grinding part of making right is tricky for me and I'm struggling to figure out how to do it better. My grit progression, if you can call it that, is 60 then 120 ceramic on my tiny 1x36. No VFD obviously and can't grind lengthways. Can't seem to find the thickness to stop using the 60 when there's enough metal left to get all the 60 scratches out with the 120. As a result there's no point in using higher grits and I end up doing a lot of hand sanding >_<
Tried a gator belt but it just glazes over and stops cutting really quickly. Perhaps I'll try it again with more pressure but it doesn't take much pressure to just stall the grinder.
Hi Rob! Thanks for watching bud!
Great question by the way and let’s try and see how we can solve that. If you have a slower motor single-speed, I’d suggest you move away from ceramic or try a friable ceramic grain. Friable grits like the Norton R929 breaks down easy with little pressure but you still get a good cut rate; I wouldn’t suggest the shredder or something like that unless your grinder has the horsepower behind it. You can also consider a high quality Al/Oxide belt like the 3M 384F? I can get you some samples and see whether that can work?
As mentioned on the video, if you’re having to do tonnes of hand sanding, it may be because you’re putting too much deep scratches early on. I really feel trying the 3M 384F or a Norton R929 would help with your issue. To warn you though, the trade off would be a slightly slower stock removal on the P60->P120 BUT, less hand sanding potentially if done correctly. Whatcha say?
I had to go look up what "friable" meant! I have a couple of the Norton R969s, I was doing some comparative tests between them and the ceramic shredders to see which cut cooler and longer. I prefer the Nortons' feel but I have a bunch of shredders lying about. I'll get through them eventually but I won't worry about then blunting quickly. They're now just semi-sacrificial as I bought them without really understanding about pressure and grinding. Profile shaping for them. I'll pop a few 384Fs in the basket when I next order from GFS. It's where I get all my abrasives and steel atm.
I could well be putting in too many deep scratches early on. I think the root cause is lack of experience as I'm just a hobby maker who does it when I feel like it instead of daily like the pros. I've learned a lot of theory from various sources including YT, putting it into practice and muscle memory is the thing. I'm definitely up for trying different belts to see if it helps. I don't know how much difference it makes but the last few knives I've made have been hardened before bevel grinding. Partly due to it being easier to keep straight and partly because I've been trying stainless pre-hardened by Graham Clarke
Send me a DM on Instagram and I will see if I can talk to get you some belts to try out bud. Speak again soon! 🍻🍻🍻
Will do, thanks
Very interesting video
Thanks Lance. Let me know if you want more similar topics or any specific subjects you want us to discuss!
British Steel!!!! Sheffield!!!! I used to be able to buy wood chisels from Sheffield, England. I suppose the factory equipment is in China now.
Hi Taters, just in case you weren’t aware, GFS Knife Supplies sells a lot of British-made steel (I am certain a lot of it is actually from Sheffield as a matter of fact): www.gfsknifesupplies.com/News/ArtMID/420/ArticleID/22/New-British-Made-1095-Sizes-Available
I use angel grinder , I'm far away for this video
Hi choojoo! You’ll get there one day for sure! If you are interested in other knife makers that started from angle grinders or just hand files, check out Alfie of Cabin Knives (London):
ua-cam.com/video/ewk-1dPLEK0/v-deo.html
Any recommendations for removal of material in tight curves I.e choil in 36 grit.
Hi updanaki! Good question! I suggest the 3M Cubitron II 784F as it is a relatively flexible backing that can get into tight corners. As a matter of fact it’s used in “beltfiles” or Dynafiles in the aerospace and automotive industry where they use it to clean corner welds etc. have you tried the 3M Cubitron II before?
@@UKBladeshow I’ve used cubitron 2 a few times in the past in 36 and 60 grit for rough blade grinding. I didn’t notice enough increase in life to justify the extra cost over a vsm ceramic belt which for me is half the price. However I have noticed my ceramic belt resin cracking like the image you showed for a small wheel damage. Ill try cubitron again, particularly for tight radius.
VSM Ceramics are very good 👍 Depending on which VSM belt you are using, I feel the main advantage of the 3M 784F is the Precision Shaped Grain that micro fractures- you may not notice it when doing small batches of job but the Cubitron II grain will leave a better finish on a like-for-like grit comparison if that makes sense. I’d suggest you revisit the Cubitron II you were using, and control the amount of pressure you apply (less is more sometimes, again, all dependent on how much stock you have to remove). It will save you a lot of hand sanding in the later part of your finishing compared to a conventional ceramic belt would.
@@UKBladeshow will do. Thanks for the information. I never considered the abrasive use and finishing time after the rough grind in my comparison before. I will keep it in mind . Thanks again.
You’re welcome! The general rule of thumb with finishing is try and start with a finer grit if you can as it will put in lesser heavy marks, so less cleaning of those previous scratch marks when hand sanding! Although I am not a professional knife maker, I can still achieve decent finishes with very minimal hand sanding, and that’s because I start with higher grits (60+ Cubitron II rather than a 36+). Happy to have you on this channel and we hope you’ll enjoy the other knife-making-related content we put out there! Thanks!
Do it
It's a shame you put all that work into the video but your hearing protection was covering your microphone!!
Hi 👋 and yes you are correct. It’s an issue with an inexperienced content creator but hopefully a big lesson learnt for me 🤣🥳 hopefully the video still made sense
This barely even grinds the surface of this topic. Lolz
🤣😂🤣😂
The finer you start with your abrasive belt the less work you will have to refine those scratches? Said by person who claim to be expert
Hi hey daddy. Yes, this is a fact. I work for a company that manufactures abrasive belts, one of the largest in the world actually. Thank you for watching.
Useful information but video editing is horrid! Just couldn't watch till the end.
Sorry to hear that
Am I crazy for never wanting a knife on any motorized belt or wheel without water on it. I believe even the lightest belt use will affect hardness in very small areas along blade edge. I would love to see real scientific analysis and electron microscopy on this. We know how hot those sparks are so to me it is obvious that those sparks have enough heat to affect the atoms along the blade edge. IMO if it sparks you need water on it while grinding.
Hi Markas! Thanks for your comments. I myself would be interested in seeing a water wheel vs a belt grinder too! If that video was interesting, check out the rest of other pro tips we have HERE: ua-cam.com/play/PLFssspwgISv-q8YPgoAg1XNZYw9YbMkJT.html
Great video, thanks! I'd love to see that chart you teased us with! I've been thinking about asking gfs to do some kind of quick reference chart on the different kind of belts, but if you've got one, it would be ace. Thanks again, Andy @adel_knives
Hi Andy! I have been thinking about compiling a list of pros and cons of all the known belts we know in knife making so yeah, happy to test them so we know which one is which for each application!