Go to Melbourne and have a ride in their Sprinter and V/locity trains. Fabric covered "bucket" seats, even better than the Vs. Trains in Japan are very good too.
I agree with everything except the seats point. What makes the Vsets special to a lot of people is that they're so damn comfy, even if they're 60odd years old. They have the best seats of any of the Sydney trains fleet. It'll be super disappointing if the Dsets don't live up to them, and they're already put themselves behind the Vsets by not having reversible seating.
Overseas passengers do not know what they are missing so they don't complain. The argument that they are "happy" carries little weight. I don't miss the absence of a tray table on current trains for Sydney to Newcastle travel.
@@listohan Exactly. I'm only on the train for 1-2.5 hours. I'm not eating a three course meal (snacks and water bottle at most). If I need to work on my laptop, my lap has always worked well. These overseas passengers often don't have the interurban category like we do - Sydney to Springwood, Sydney to Gosford etc. Our country trains (e.g. Sydney to Grafton) are the best comparison to what's being cited overseas - a very different category of travel.
@@listohan Point well made. I'd only counter with, having travelled a lot in those other countries - you can't judge a seat from a photo. In fact the more I experience, the less I'm confident. I think people almost need blindfolds to judge seat comfort now. Side note: If you're buying outdoor furniture at Ikea etc, try every single option - I can't believe how good the ones I got are, every time I sit on them, when I see how square they look and even how lightweight they are to carry. Seat science - it's an art, not a science?? Or an under-appreciated skill. I sure know that the airlines can make some big mistakes when "upgrading" or refurbishing their planes, and newer doesn't mean better. But where it matters most - not trains, not planes, but it's buses. These get the LEAST attention and you can't even judge them in a showroom. Nothing wobbles MORE than a damn bus. You need support AND comfort otherwise the passenger is constantly working their core muscles instead of being able to relax. Some bus rides end up as a secret fitness gym. That's why - and you see people struggle to explain it - trams are so much better than buses. "Smoother ride" is barely scratching the surface of what rails versus roads is all about. Rails 100%.
When the XPTs first came out, they had fixed seating;. The feedback complaints resulted in them being replaced with rotators. The Tangaras got fixed seats, again the complaints resulted in the last batch, then the Oscars and Waratahs, getting reversibles (even if they are not the most comfortable). Seems the only thing that TfNSW has learned from past mistakes, is how to make them again.
Until the Railways of NSW (and Queensland and...) buy a handful of prototype trains, flog them to death to iron out all the bugs then order a decent train, problems with new train introductions will continue. Just look at the NSW order for bimodal country trains. Do you seriously think CAF is going to bend too much for the onslaught of government changes for that small order of rolling stock. Yeah, nuh. Just look at QR with the NGR introduction. 76 sets needing a second toilet pod plus seat adjustments, plus, plus because a dickhead in government doesn't know how to review a specification. $ 400 Ms. Open yah wallets Mr and Mrs J Taxpayer. Oops...blowing more smoke than an ALCo diesel lol.
As an intercity driver my self I highly doubt we will see these in service within the next few months, they are still having other issues with the train such as ATP.
Any insight into whether the management style has changed since March 2023, and whether that's sped up or slowed down anything? We're entering "Berlin airport" territory of bizarre delays now, or Opera House for another comparison (though that was easier to keep one eye on). I wouldn't even care so much except that these trains only last 30 years, not like the olden days, so we've shot past 10% and are in real danger of hitting 25% total lifespan now. I haven't even really thought about if that's a bigger deal than the additional storage costs (versus just buying something 5 years later and goes into revenue in record time) and maintenance of an old fleet, which surely only goes up per year, not even predictable.
Sure- but the line between Thirroul and Wgong is actually very straight and there have been some fairly advanced proposals in the past for a 160km/h tunnel between Thirroul and Waterfall. Who knows.
@@thetrainguy4 I think a Thirroul-Waterfall tunnel makes sense from an operational point of view anyway, they struggle to run even 4 trains an hour on the Illawarra line south of Waterfall consistently due to the single-track section and the grades are difficult, plus I think the maintenance of the current alignment is quite difficult and expensive and isn't viable long-term. Even in a context of a NSW High Speed Rail network which will likely go via Macarthur down the Maldon-Dombarton area, it makes sense to have a faster higher-capacity line from Wollongong along the coast to Sutherland.
@thetrainguy4 That was last proposed in the mid-90s in Action for Transport 2010. If it was going to happen, it would have happened already. If there was a chance it'd get resurrected, it would be dragged over multiple elections, 1 for the feasibility study, another for the start of construction, and it'd be finished in 12 years in time for another election. By then the trains will be around 20 years old and we'll have been stuck sitting backwards for 15 years. Pass.
@@BigBlueMan118 Yes except one thing. People really don't understand how much has been mined underneath the escarpment and how difficult said tunnel if not impossible it would be to actually build.
A Brit looking over from an outside perspective here - But even I agree that the reversable seats that you Aussies currently have are far superior to our fixed seat model. I often hate having to sit backwards, especially on longer journeys, it even makes me feel nauseous sometimes. You lot are truly lucky to have the option over there, it's a shame they've removed it with these sets to better match what we do over here (probably for the sake of capacity, a lot of trains here have non existent legroom). Still, a good video, we've had way too many issues with our own new train introductions here too (Especially the Class 777 in my own region).
If there was reversible seating, the trains would be much better. However, one thing I do like is that the door buttons will actually function, unlike those on the H Sets. It's the worst feeling ever when the train is nice and warm on a rainy day, and the doors just open, taking all the heat away and water comes into the vestibule like a waterfall.
No: door buttons have been removed and control given entirely to guards I thought. Reversible seats trope is totally overrated in NSW. People are currently putting up with TERRIBLE seats on H sets for long trips for the reversible seat fetish. As said in the video that means no tables, seats not properly moulded for ergonomics, chargers would have to be overhead or on the wall, trains are heavier I would much rather a comfortable high-backed seat than reversible ones. I live in Germany now, none of the long-distance trains here have reversible seats even on long trips, 50% face the direction of travel 50% away. It's fine.
I hope you are right that they'll have door buttons and consistent operation... I.e. passenger controlled all the time. Light rail was initially passenger controlled, but reverted to override during covid and they haven't switched back to passenger control 🤦🏻♂️
Tbh I don't know a single person that has actually has an issue with automatic doors opening and closing because of weather/temperature. It's not something that most people even notice, especially when most passengers are seated up and downstairs. I think reversible seating is what NSW folk are far more obsessed and picky with.
@@mgp1203 thats because the coldest line, the Blue Mountains Line, uses Vsets which are passenger operated and have an internal cabin door which shields the main passenger areas. Passengers will notice it for sure when the NIFs go into service in the Mountains and people will rightfully be Mad as hell.
@@BigBlueMan118 that's not an excuse to not have reversible seats as there are many examples worldwide with reversible seats that feature tray tables and charging points (even such in a double decker formation), such as the Shinkansen or bilevel Green Cars in Japan, or even our own XPTs.
Fully concur with the majority of your comments - they sure will be a major improvement for everyone, especially those with mobility issues. The V sets were a great 'workhorse' but well past their 'use by date'. The only issue is of course the 'reverse seating' ; something not many passengers like, especially for a long journey on a train (in fact some may suffer from motion sickness). True in Europe it is common to have the same forward & reverse seating on long-distance trains. In Japan, they overcome this problem with the crew being able to switch all the seats around with the flick of a button (trust the Japanese). Overall, if the frequency is increased then perhaps the issue of reverse seating is not as critical - only time will tell once the new fleet is finally in service.
I think people will eventally ignore it and just put up with it..... there are some people (like myself) that want to sit backwards rather than forwards and would go out of my way to pick it...
Most people don't want the V sets to run forever. What they do want is a spiritual successor to the V set - A train with the things people love, like closed in vestibules and comfortable reversible seats, but with better safety, better accessibility and toilets you actually want to use (I wouldn't go in a V set toilet to even just wash my hands). We made a great train before, we could do it again. But what we did instead was purchase the spiritual successor to the G and H set. A suburban train with some interurban features bolted on.
I hope these increase services to Newcastle as well especially on weekends, they have the same maximum speed limit as the XPT does today, their design is an evolution of the H set but with 2x2 rows and half have 6-cars and built overseas. Most of the trains are in Australia now with I believe only a few left getting built and tested in South Korea.
8:53 you can still have a properly molded seat, with charge ports and a tray table that also rotates. Shinkansen and other trains do this in Japan so is totally doable.
@@thetrainguy4until they were retired a couple of years ago, in Queensland, we had our ICEs which had seats that could be rotated, they didn't require crew, you pressed down a foot lever, and spun the seat.
Reversing seats I think is a bigger issue than suggested here. Sure you can point to the UK where they don’t have an alternative but we have an existing culture and etiquette with reversing seats which is great and sad to see go. Firstly facing towards is not a guarantee since once that half fills up first (which will almost always be the case as it is on tangaras) you’ll have no choice but an unpleasant backward journey. Secondly you lose the current advantage which is when a train is at low capacity you can get unobscured views outside without a seat back blocking half the window. And finally if you are in larger groups (which is often the case for these longer journeys from experience) there are far fewer spaces unlike right now when you can create group seating anywhere. I think charges can easily be put in the walls rather than the seats and that this is a bad move:/
I think this is a personal preference, for many it is a huge issue, for others like myself I'm happy with this choice as long as the seat is 3 hour trip comfortable...
@DAEMTAM For many like me, it's a necessary preference due to a medical condition that causes vertigo and sickness when facing backwards even for a short journey.
9:53 Thanks for a well constructed review. There will be more than one carriage in which to find a forward facing seat. Almost everywhere in Europe has a similar fixed seating arrangement. And saving weight means less wear and tear on the vehicles and infrastructure.
@kimballthurlow577 That's a stupid statement to make because the trains are 8 cars long, and it's not possible to know where to stand on the platform in order to get a forward facing seat unless we have some super power that sees the vacant seat and propels us to the seat from possibly 8 cars distant.
@@aussiejohn5835 you can walk through the entire train once you are onboard. Don’t people walk anymore? Queensland has not had reversible seating since 1979.
The reversing seats were amazing on all the years I got to use those trains (haven't been on a train in Sydney for like 6-7 years), they were comfortable and when you were travelling in groups of people you could have seats facing each other so you could talk and interact far easier. We have similar seats to the ones proposed up in Queensland, and they're average in comfortability, quite stiff and vertical. Also, I see those tray tables being wrecked in like six months, the charging ports probably stuffed full of gum... nice features, sure.. but good luck with how some people treat trains. Honestly wish these were being made in Australia, the lack of manufacturing of things like this down here these years is frankly disturbing.
The RTBU is a representative body for the majority of front-line workers who actually care enough about their jobs to say something when safety issues arise. This bashing of a union of workers is unhinged!
I fully support unions. The RTBU though have time and time again made it their policy to campaign against such trivial things (like rear door loading or passenger operated doors etc) and their push in this case to return to a proven unsafe operating model is just another example. I'm not supporting the former government, I'm not supporting this union specifically. The NIF safety report makes for grim reading regarding the operating model the RTBU insist on using.
@@thetrainguy4 you’ve just proven you have no idea what you’re talking about. If you think the NIF safety report is independent, you need to think again. Safety isn’t trivial to the RTBU and it’s members.
When you are on a train for a couple of hours the only thing you really care about is the comfort of the seat. I'll leave work later to skip the Oscar and get a v set just for the seat. Dreading the intro of the d set. Only half the seats pointing the right way and they look rock hard and way to vertical
The new carriages made by Pt. INKA Surabaya for Indonesia, Pilipinas & Thailand have moulded seats which spin around to face forward. They also have WiFi & mobile device power outlets for laptop, tablet, headphone & phone charging.
8:02 That accident with the blind man occurred at Leura, so he must have been travelling on a V set, not a H Set. Also, the doors of H Sets do NOT open at stations where the door/s might not be facing the platform. There are several short 1 car platforms around (and even a one-door platform at Wondabyne) and the guard controls which doors will open. It's the V sets which don't have that arrangement.
9:00 So, just because "few other countries" have reversible seats, NSW is not allowed to have them? What a weak argument! Two countries similar in size to Australia, Canada and the U.S., have had them. Indeed the reversible seats in the original Sydney Suburban sets had a U.S. patent mark on them. London trams had reversible seats from 1908 until the closure of their first tram system in 1952. A vintage Blackpool tram has reversible seats on one side and longitudinal seats on the other side! So they are more common than the reversible seat opponents claim.
Give jobs to Australians? Bring back our own manufacturing industries?! MADNESS! Think of those poor factory workers in like... Korea or Europe... or whatever.
Місяць тому
So then Australian manufacturers get screwed around by incompetent liberal governmetns and the unions? Okay...
This is the best introduction to the Dsets that I have seen and I agree with most of your points except for the seating not being reversible. I have a medical condition that is severely affected when not facing the direction of travel and I tend to avoid the Tsets for this reason. I have seen the crew door operating independently of the passenger doors soon after the trains arrival in 2020 whilst on display at Central. The union approved all the safety features including the driver only feature until it was evident that they would receive a severe backlash from their members. Thanks for this excellent presentation.
...but half the seats still face forwards? If they're all taken you could just politely explain that you need it - i don't mean to belittle your disability or anything but i don't really see how that's any different from how someone who can't stand for long periods would ask for a seat? I know it's not quite as ideal as the current situation but still
@strawberrysoup1 I do understand what you are saying, but unfortunately, I can't take the chance that nobody would give me their seat because the consequences of that would not be good. I will say that the majority of young people do offer me their seat on a short suburban journey but not so much on a journey of 2 or more hours, which I understand. Having reversible seats would make everyone happy.
Half the seats face in the direction of travel so I can't see any problems. What medical or mental issue would cause some people to be distressed facing the opposite direction of travel? I am nonplussed.
I only have one question: Does "5 years late" have any impact on service life? Does the clock start ticking when it starts testing? I feel like the answer is totally tied up to the equation of maintenance spending and refurbishments spending, in a comparison to amortised replacements in a 30-year versus 60-year period. It seems to me that 50 years ago, maintenance costs were just relatively lower than complete replacements - reflecting life in other areas of buying equipment and repairing it. 9:10 yes!! Why is nobody else asking about WHICH way the fixed seats are facing. Surely having all the seats face INWARD means that everybody gets more exterior views, from more window visibility. Plus it totally lets a group of 4 people meet and convene, with the rare opportunity of a common table laid out. It can be used for games, refreshments, or just laptops. (I'm sad that the original D-set thought-bubbles & scoping work included such Nice Things™ as cafeterias or even a drinks bar … just like the double-decker Manly Ferry used to have … but we're now in a world where both are going or going back into permanent service with no such luxury) 8:35 THANKYOU. It needs to be 100% reinforced that H-sets long ago, and then G-sets long ago before that, were deliberately purchased in spite of the Ten Tunnels problem, with a total inference that the tunnels were the real issue and needed changing. It was only a musical-chairs scenario that the last government had to announce an "oh no" style of works to change the tunnels. Disingenuous media clickbait, that's all … and the public narrative went solid.
I don’t like how there is only 1 seat per carriage to my liking on the D sets as there is only 1 seat row with a whole window view as the others face backwards or only have half a window and the front seat have the annoying display board in the way I get the feeling I won’t like them
Yeah, I generally like to sit far back in the carriage, in a seat that gets the full window. That way I get a good view outside and can see what's going on in my carriage - a habit I picked up when I was a kid growing up in the inner west (back when it was a bit rough). You didn't want to keep your back on potential trouble.
Completely agree that customer saloon operated doors should have been the model. Keep two crew operation, but have the second walking train and operating the doors from the customer saloons.
@@soph_the_great_Aus everything is a balance of the risk profile, likely hood and impact... If you can show me that your scenario is likely than I'll agree we need that mitigation... But I highly doubt your scenario has a high risk rating i.e. very unlikely
@DAEMTAM simply saying that something is highly unlikely so we don't need to mitigate the risk only makes the risk more possible and makes the impact of such event even worse. Not only that, none of our trains are designed to be walked through except a waratah. Not only that it takes on average 3 - 7 minutes to walk through an 8 car set. I'll also point out that given the people that train crew encounter, having them walk through the train increases the likely hood of injury from a passenger in the concept they're proposing. I'll also point out, that during peak a fully loaded train would make door operations near impossible from a vestibule control system and would have a higer risk of being operated by non authorised people. The reliance on CCTV cameras is another issue given that cctv is unreliable at the best of times given it has a 3 - 7 second delay depending on the set and 90% of the Fleet doesn't have external cameras. It's all well and good to suggest ideas but it's clear most of the people commenting have no absolutely no idea what it's like from an Operational point of view. Most rail staff in other countries that I have spoken to personally prefer our method of working, it's just that Management is cheap and trying to retrain the amount of staff would take years. If people do want staff walking through the train then Employee more staff to do that, don't restrict or change roles based on a suggestion from someone that has never had to do the job.
@@soph_the_great_Aus first off, there are multiple ways you can mitigate risk. These trains were designed to mitigate the risk by enabling driver only operations. If a seperation or derailment was to occur they have fail safe systems designed in.
@@soph_the_great_Aus these new trains are designed for walk through. Not sure what your point about the time taken to walkthrough is about? It takes me 5 minutes to walk to the bathroom at work, but it's not relevant to the operation of the office...
Think this video is fair and factual. It's important to remove train enthusiasts bias to make these kinds of videos relatable to an audience outside the train fraternity. I would find it difficult to create such a balanced video as I will now demonstrate... I love the V sets and remember the 80s and 90s where the ride quality was better than today and favourably comparable on an international basis. Now, carriages using different control systems...resistor camshaft v/s GTO chopper thyristor.. are mixed. This is known to worsen ride quality, particularly in adverse weather conditions. Dont get me started on the luke warm, if any, regenerative braking on most sets. Skidding into stations under harsh regen is now a faint memory. On the seats issue, it is true Sydneysiders have been spoilt with reversible seats. I suppose this comes from an era of pioneering train design and not the beige conformist approach taken today. The D sets are certainly very stylish, but fit the modern plastic approach to train design which shows no design innovation at all. p.s. The reason the D sets have been lolling around for so long is that the Railways were secretly doing static weathering tests on the exterior finishes 😮
CCN track side modifications on 11 stations for new operating model is slated for August 2-3rd, new signage and balises being moved to new locations. The inclusion of 8 car markers for NIF trains is interesting, they tested 8 car configs in 2021 so either they are future proofing for a potential 4+4 or just doing it as an optional thing. And according to railsafe notices Sydney Trains has taken over the intercity (non-booked) services from Trainlink, starting July 1st.
Looking forward to using the better bike racks on the blue mountains line, plus the big bike logo on the side of the train tells you where they are, unlike the current trains.
Several have commented on the fixed seating arrangement, it is an European concept, it follows on from the compartment seating arrangement, used for many years in NSW & other state railways on long distance over night country trains, the reversable or tip over seating was first used on rolling stock in sydney as early as 1880's on suburban "yankee" stock or end platform cars,( do not confuse these with the country yankee sets that had toilets), this type of seating came from the US, this seating arrangement was adopted on the first steel body suburban fleet later referred to as red rattlers during electrification in the 1920's, maybe those in Europe/England don't suffer from the discomfort of travelling backwards, but a lot of people here do, including myself.
A fair bit of status quo bias. It's a pretty cool feature in itself but it deprives passengers of much more worthy things (as I mentioned) that are beyond standard on similar trains in Europe, Asia and even the US (despite your suggestion). If you are uncomfortable facing backwards then sit in a forward facing seat, it's not rocket science.
@@thetrainguy4 are yes same old glib answer, of course I would if I was the first to board the train, but as most passengers prefer to face forwards, by time I board the train those seats are already occupied, & that is based on my experience travelling on the T4 line that has only the Tangara fleet these days, unless a converted Tangara G set is in train consist.
One of the great things abou the V set reversible seats, was that you could allow a family or group of friends to seat facing each other. It modern conveniences means anti social, then these trains fit the bill.
The D sets look absolutely gorgeous, and for me, them, along with the M sets, are one of the best train designs of the world. Though I don't really care to complain about the seats, they *could* have had rotating seats as seen on the Shinkansen and other East Asian trains, since Hyundai Rotem does have the technology to build them and has already done so for so many of the trains over here in South Korea. Really don't understand the hate about everything else though.
I think the problem with rotating seats is that they can't expect passengers to do it themselves, because it's easier to get your fingers caught in them, and you can't have people sitting on the seats adjacent while you rotate them, so they would have to do it at the terminus stations (which is definitely possible for long distance trains). However it would have also meant fewer seats or less leg room in the trains because right now they have two static seats back to back in the centres of the cars, you would have to space these further apart if they could rotate.
The seats are fixed and the way they are to meet the new fire-life safety requirements. A and B with low back seats are ok, but for a high back seat - look at the Oscars for how hard they are to meet that requirement. By making the seats fixed, you actually reduce weight and flammable material locations (one side being non flammable plastic or fibreglass, meaning you can install more padding
@@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042 One of the Hyundai Rotem-built trains (ITX-Cheongchun) has seats that rotate automatically, so if those were implemented it wouldn't be much of a problem. (as long as you only rotate them at the terminus that is)
@@rogue265 I'm not sure what the point of your comment is, rotating seats also require only 1 side of padding so I don't see your comment fitting my point
@@Skyler_Park because NSW won't do that because the NSW train link times require on board staff to rotate the seats. I'm sure the guard would love to do that 8-) but at least it would get them out of the damn cabin. I was giving the reason why the seats were fixed basically
I agree they look pretty good and will probably be a great step forward especially the 2+2 seating. But a few points... Reversible seating is not common internationally. But the best railway system in the world (Japan shinkansen) can do it. And it is a feature of Australian trains that is universally praised by visitors. Surely reversible seats and usb points can be made to be compatible. The tunnel stuff may be true - but was never mentioned until the trains arrived. I must admit it all sounds a bit like post facto justification (or post fxxxup). Call me cynical. But the most important point is the billions wasted because the government didn't have the fight with the unions before they ordered the trains rather than after they were delivered and paid for.
Also on the narrow gauge express services in Japan such as the Tokiwa and Hitachi. The cleaners rotate all seats to face forwards when the train terminates. You don't have a choice about facing forwards! I can't see any technical reason why charging ports could not be used in such a system. Their seats already have trays.
Rotating seats have to be spaced further apart and you can't have the back-to-back seats like the D sets do in the centre of the cars. This would either mean less leg room or fewer seats if they did it for these trains. As for "not hearing about the width thing until they were delivered" as someone who has been paying attention to the D sets from the start, the government most definitely designed the width of the trains intentionally and always planned on widening the tunnels to accommodate this. It was clear from day 1 that they had built the trains to practically the same dimensions as the Oscars, and stated their reason for doing so is consistency with the rest of the fleet, and extra width so they can have wider seating. This was a case of the news making up stories or rather, telling the story in a way which made people think they did it accidentally. The news said they ordered trains "too wide for the tunnels" which gives the impression it was accidental, which is not true and never was. They did order trains "too wide" for the (existing) tunnels (and also have had a plan for ages to widen the tunnels). If they had ordered narrow trains, the news could have gone on about how they are "sacrificing passenger comfort" by ordering narrower trains than the rest of the fleet, just because of a few tunnels in the blue mountains.
When these trains do come out, could they follow a similar timetable on the CCN on weekdays like how (Mostly) 1 Newcastle service does express all the way and one doing all stops to newcastle.
I see a lot of tourists getting on V sets at Central, with the seats still set for the inbound direction. These people don't realise the seats tip over, so will happily sit facing backwards for the trip, unless they see a local tipping them over and the penny drops. Of course these tourists include those clever Americans who get on the train from the Grand Concourse end, and the first thing they ask is "which way does the train go"?
5:46 - Wrong! The single track 1888 Clifton Tunnel and its associated 2km of single track considerably hampers South Coast train operations. No way you are going to get a 30 minute off-peak service, let alone a 15 minute frequency in peak periods. NSW Transport bureaucrats still do semantic somersaults to justify the 2-hourly service to smaller South Coast stations on weekends.
@@thetrainguy4 20 minutes is not 15 minutes. You might think that surely it would be easy to shorten the gap to 15 minutes in peak period, but it is not. South Coast trains have to compete for spots with the very busy section from Sutherland onwards. It also comes at the cost of half-hourly peak services in the opposite direction Central/Bondi Jun to Wollongong. The bureaucrats also justify the two hourly service on weekends to the smaller South Coast stations by saying that you can get a south-bound train to Thirroul and change there. The problem with this: if you can't get say the 3.15pm train from Otford to Central, they say get the 3.30pm train from there to Thirroul and change to the first stop Helensburgh train. The connection gap at Thirroul is, however, very tight, a mere 3 minutes. If the all stations train is just a few minutes late (as it often is) then "customers" miss the train at Thirroul. It's not the train planners and controllers I have an issue with, it's the politicians and their allied senior bureaucrats making silly announcements that the planners know can't be implemented.
Yeah they do their jobs, but they don't currently have any duties when traveling between stations so they sit in the cab doing what they want. I encourage guards to do this, what else are you going to do betweens stations? They do often speak to passengers when required, but if they started walking down the train now they might not be able to get back before the next station. They used to be able to perform their guard duties at any set of passenger doors, now days while it's physically possible, the operating rules prevent it I'm pretty sure.
@@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042 I think if guards were expected to roam trains for customer service or ticket-checking purposes, there would have to be 2 present on the train. Similar to how transport officers and police travel in multiples. What are your thoughts on this?
Seriously, guards these days are useless. Even their most basic job of making announcements they can't do properly. Sick of them mumbling or do nothing at all. Try peaking at rear carriage, you would see them glued on mobile phones.
Great video as always!😀I was wondering what this Oscar Obsolescence Program was and I haven't heard about it till I watched this video, could you provide a link for more info regarding the program and the H sets transfer into Sydney trains. However I don't think the transfer would be relavent as the government is proposing to transfer operations of NSWTrainlink to Sydney Trains from 1 July 2024, the operation of all ‘non-booked’ services - including the electric fleet, the South Coast and Hunter intercity diesel services, the Bathurst Bullet and Southern Highlands services, and Moss Vale and Lithgow depots - are proposed to transfer to Sydney Trains. Which I found from the NSW TrainLink Corporate Plan 2024-2025. I thought that Sydney trains and NSWTrainlink had the same operation like drivers and guards, probably seen why the RTBU wanted the D sets to have them be like the Waratahs operating style.
No public info about the OOP but it’s being done at Hornsby MC. Intercity services have been operated by Sydney Trains since 1 July as you say. Once enough D sets have entered service the H sets will all move to Hornsby MC and run sector 3 suburban services.
The V set seats were the best I've ever experienced. Just perfect for a tired and weary university student coming home late at night. Safer than the suburban trains too.
I still cannot get my head around the fact people can support the RTBU on this despite them demanding removal of passenger operated door function. This is just insane, why does the RTBU hate modern technology? Just irrational. Go and tell people in the Blue Mountains on a -4°C morning all doors have to open because the RTBU wants it that way. Or on a hot day up the coast or in the west. Just nuts. More than anything else, that shows you the RTBU isn't a good-faith negotiator. "Safety" removing proven modern tech and demanding their guards hang out the side of a moving train despite their staff having fallen out the train is another.
Seriously? I thought they were only complaining about the cctv and guard operated doors! Crazy if they forced the removal of passenger controlled options for cold and hot weather!
@@DAEMTAM theyre definitely being disabled and I have read a Lot of people saying they are being taken out of the new trains completely. Brought to you by the RTBU.
Amazing that Melbourne has been running all their suburban trains of different types for many years now with driver-only operation and passenger opening doors (after released by driver). No apparent decrease in passenger safety either.The RTBU is just about saving the guard's jobs (which is in their interest too). And how many accidents has having a guard prevented?
@@cliffleigh7450 there is a huge difference between the trains in Melbourne, and the trains in Sydney and intercity. There are platforms that have extreme curves, moreso than here. So yes it would be a severe decrease in safety. And to add, the incident in Melbourne where a school kid ended up being killed due to the curved platform would have been prevented if we had guards.
The fact you are so nonchalant about the reversible seats tells me you don’t rely on the v sets for long distances. It’s not so much the reservibility of them but they are so rugged and comfortable that the rough journey that occurs going up and don’t the mountain is negated by the comfort. They are rugged and thick because they are expected to move. The molded seats of these new trains will be fixed and only minimal padding.
I cannot wait for these to come out, I love going past near tuggerah on a train and seeing trains looking brand new like, just sitting there doing nothing.
I knew a guy who had worked as a guard on City Rail for 20 years who told me that all guards sleep the whole time until they train starts nearing Redfern and then they wake up to do the announcements for the city stations only
Airline tray tables have been found to be carry more bacteria than toilet seats, so results from a similar test of these train tables will make for interesting reading.
It’s ok, they’ll be broken in only a few months and they’ll realize it will be cheaper to take them out rather than continuously have to keep getting them repaired. They’ve made trains for countries who respect public property but we don’t have train passengers like that in Australia.
Been riding the V sets from Tuggerah to Central constantly for almost my entire life. I am beyond excited for competent bike racks and outlets, but man I will miss those reversible seats.
As a frequent OSCAR user from the extremety of the nextwork, I can confidently say that passenger -operated doos would definitely be an improvement. On a cold winter day, the temperature change from cozy and warm to freezing cold every time doors open for no reason is a absolute pain in the arse - as would having to face backwards for in excess of 3.5 hrs as would be the case with a peak hour trip from Newcastle to Sydney. There are plenty of trains built "off the shelf" with reversible seats, tray tables, and charging ports.
Pretty much nailed it. A 10 car D set is about 9 metres longer than an 8 car V set. The latter are too marrow to be considered safe by todays standards. Their replacements needed to have the same car length and body widrh as suburban trains so that gap fillers can be fitted where necessary. I caught a V set from Eastwood to West Ryde on the first day in service in 1970 (still had clear plastic on the carpeted wall panels). There were grumblings then about the cabins being stuffy with fixed windows and the risk of people talling down the stairs. My schoolmmates and i just loved it. Let's face it. The S sets were horrible.
9:11 they could have reversable seats and tray tables by having a cushioned tray table in the seat, kind of like in the back seat of a car although you probably cant have charger ports and it would also hinder the performance
Why not make longer platforms? I have a correspondence with V/line in Melbourne suggesting that every platform serviced by a Vlocity train be 6 cars long to avoid being told to alight from the centre of the train. I hope they do this instead of closing the short stations.
They aren't closing short platforms, these trains will make them safer (and more efficient) by allowing all possible doors to open but leaving all others locked. As for extensions they are expensive and often not justified by passenger use. Adamstown was extended to avoid blocking the level crossing but no other little stations were iirc.
The video mentions increased frequency on the South Coast lines, which is great, but they also need to fix the lousy frequency (once in 2 hrs!) from Mt Vic to Lithgow (and do something more for Lithgow to Bathurst/Orange). Lithgow is apparently good enough to stable D sets (for years). It's also good enough to RUN them there more often.
It would have been sensible for ALL stakeholders to be involved in developing the design brief. Then see what was available and negotiate the required mods and final details with the manufacturer. Might then have had a result which in the main suited most people, on time and within budget.
My big issue is the seats, they don't look comfortable in the slightest, the high back is way to straight and there is definitely not enough padding. Tray tables are completely unnecessary, they almost never get used on V/Line services so removing reversible seats for that was a waste. it would be a lot less controversial if they went with Vlocity seats.
If I remember correctly the W sets too had problems but they were ironed out and the problems will be overcome in time with these sets too unless they were a faulty design from the get go. In forty years time these new sets will be looked upon as not fit for current use and they too will have a cult following as it happens to all trains when they get to a certain age.
I think the usb and power outlet on the seat is probs the reason why the seats aren't reversible (that what i think, but can work with the plugs being underneath the seats for both sides) and probs more likely to break than set seats. But I find it pretty boring sitting front facing. The guard thing shouldn't have happened and due to the nature of NSW train stations. Its will need guards for the existance of NSW trains and be adopted into all future fleets. Yes Melbourne and others trains worked with driver only, but i think its far too messy to try and apply it here.... can be done but the as mentioned, the camera that the driver used is pretty shit.
Perth as an example uses Driver only operation, and their drivers don't have cameras or mirrors I'm pretty sure. They solely rely on the door interlock to warn them if someone is stuck in the doors.
Feel like they couldve had reversible seats if they wanted them though since the Shinkansen's seats are reversible and have tray tables and power outlets. They just spin around instead of flipping back and forth
Shinkansen seats are rotationally reversible, something that is a thing in NSW (regional trains) but not possible on regional seats cause it requires staff.
I’m looking forward to the D sets. My one concern is that they will continue to run 4 carriage trains in supposedly non peak times. Currently 4 carriage V sets are often packed around midday and the new trains are smaller. It will be amusing to see how the construction workers manage with the new trains as they like to stretch out across seats. I don’t really see the need for folding tables very few people would use them and I suspect they will be broken in short order.
its kind of wild that trains with such blatant flaws and bad design choices like the cctv stuff even got as far as they did and then they got upset when the union complained about the blatantly stupid design choices and threw about a bunch of name calling and what not and then the project went overbudget because they had to fix their own mistakes, which they then complained about some very smart people in charge here
The CCTV stuff is reasonable and is standard practice on railways around the world that are much safer than ours. The RTBU’s arguments (as always) relied heavily on emotional arguments rather than facts.
I'm still patiently waiting for the new regional trains! Canberra to Sydney is a very busy service and it would be great to at least get trains with power outlets! Wifi would be nice, but i can live without that for 4 hours.
Great video, very objective and thoughtfully explained. I agree with you regarding seats. I believe that NSW commuters are forfeited comfort to retain reversable seating. Moreover though I loved the V sets in teir day, the seats aren't nearly as comfortable and they are becoming less reliable.
The loss of the super comfortable, cosy, quiet and carpeted V sets is a tradgedy. The replacements lack that cosiness necessary for longer trips and reverse facing seats are never popular. Just watch which seats fill first on any train with half reverse facing seats.
V sets are life expired and needed replacing ages ago. Sure it’s not cost but it’s not your house, it’s a short distance train. Not the end of the world. Not to say they don’t have problems, just those aren’t it.
Hate on me, disagree with me but I don’t get why everyone is fussing about reversible seating, I get it it’s annoying to sit backwards, but just think about all of the new features that are relevant in todays time And some of these trains operate in 10 cars so your bound to find a seat that is in the direction of your satisfaction, I actually can’t wait till they enter service!
I think it's just frustrating that for no good reason we are going backwards (literally) in the name of progress, and if we dare to ask why we are told 'suck it up it doesn't matter' like we are naughty children.
I'm totally not impacted, but, I know people who get sick rolling backwards. When a train is full, it's simply not going to be possible to avoid the backwards seats. We're talking about daily trips, or twice-daily, when you look at most passengers. And for D-sets these are trips of 1, 1.5, 2 hours.
@@whophd Don't worry, because intercity trains are so sluggish many people are avoiding to catch these trains. From Newcastle to Sydney CBD driving is a LOT QUICKER via M1.
I do think they'll be great. But the issues and delays with the one man issue, no reversing seats and other difficulties slightly tarnish what would otherwise be a purely positive opinion for me.
I remember when XPTs wrer released with backwards facing seats - still charged the same for the less comfortable backeard seating. that did not last long until they were refurbished due to customer complaints. These people talk about customer service but I wonder waht they mean by customer service - is it the service the customers give to the transport gurus. We have the ne sardine can trains with few seats and many standing and now they want us to pay the same fare for the inconvenience of travelling backwards.
@@thetrainguy4 - if you pay the same money you do not ecpect to "cope" WHAT ARE YOU A TRANSPORT NAZI - the peasants who catch the train should be grateful - You sound like a former NSW Transport minister who had never travelled by public (socialist) transport.
Woah there settle down. I pay for a trip on the metro most days and I don’t get a seat at all. You pay for the service, not for the guaranteed seat. If there’s one free, that’s a happy coincidence, if it’s backwards and you would prefer to sit forwards, tough. Don’t call people Nazis.
@@thetrainguy4 - you must be politically connected - a supporter of Good time Gladys and Stupid McStupid Face. Such a devoted political disciple that you love being treated like cattle in the sardine can trains. If your want to ride in a sardine can then ride the toy train systems of London or Singapore. The UA-cam videos of visitors to Sydney love the character of our city and often comment on the big underground trains with reverseable seats.
Non-reversible seats on trains that don't reverse at the end of their trip are unforgivable. We've had them for a century & designing them isn’t hard. If they can't fix the alignments to allow for long stretches of 160km/h running to bypass Cowan Bank, Lapstone and Helensburgh curves entirely (extend suburban services for the local stations), and services remain 2-3 hours long, then no. Just no. Power belongs in the ceiling anyway, not the seats.
I think the non-reversible seats trope is totally overrated in NSW. People are currently putting up with TERRIBLE seats on the H sets for long trips for the reversible seat fetish. I would much rather a comfortable high-backed seat than reversible ones. I live in Germany now, none of the long-distance trains here have reversible seats even on long trips, 50% face the direction of travel 50% away. It's fine.
@kyletopfer7818 German trains are always late, but they're still faster than tottering up Cowan Bank or into Stanwell Park at 35km/h. You rarely have daily commutes that take 2 hours plus transfers in Germany.
@@PCLoadLetter German trains have running issues and poor on-time running for a few reasons as I understand it; firstly because since the mid 1990s the Government throttled back funding for improvements to the existing network so a lot of passing tracks were removed meaning express trains get stuck behind locals. Secondly some key stations, notably Frankfurt Stuttgart as well as München, are terminal stations running at or near capacity designed for far less train movements per day, and should have been replaced by through stations years ago as was planned for Frankfurt last decade and is currently under construction in Stuttgart. Thirdly deferred maintenance is a problem, and fourth sabotage for theft of copper wiring as well as general public interference in the rail corridors is a persistent issue. As for your other points, I regularly sit on regional trains for 2-3 hours to get to different places, but there are plenty of ICE journeys that take over 2 hours and plenty of people make them regularly a few times a week. But this is an argument in favour of better more comfortable seats though! As said in the video reversible seats means no tables, seats not properly moulded for ergonomics, chargers would have to be overhead or on the wall, trains are heavier: I would much rather a comfortable high-backed seat than reversible ones. I live in Germany now, none of the long-distance trains here have reversible seats even on long trips, 50% face the direction of travel 50% away. It's fine. Anyone that is doing the majority of the journey will be able to find a forward-facing seat most of the time anyway if they want, you are pretending trains will be full from first stop to last every trip which is nonsense.
Yes, they could have been designed but that would have come at a cost including the higher cost of manufacture, reduced seating capacity, high maintenance costs and the overall cost of moving away from standard designs. The rest of the world does without them just fine.
Who ever thought non reversible seats was a good idea is obviously not a regular traveller. It is a crap idea in the extreme. Thanks for the video…very informative.
Reversible seats are a blessing not irrelevant. International vistors remark on them and are amazed what a good idea they are. They do not preclude having charging points. Like many of the points you cite it is purely a matter of not too difficult design. Increased potential speed is a plus but only if it is used, which it won't be. The problem 10 car sets have added to the costs and added to the platform problems with no increase in capacity. That there are updates to technology on the new sets is a furphy when you admit considerable money was spent on refitting the older sets for suburban use. Same same. Could have updated the old to the new tech, something which should be allowed for in the original design, making easier maintenance and changes over time. The increased service frequency is very welcome, especially on the busy and getting busier Wollongong line. Money misspent on delays and design blunders should have gone towards finishing line electrification which will eliminate train changes, cut costs and pollution plus add to reliability. Trains running faster on straightened lines would in itself make existing stock service more people because they would not be taking as long to get from A to Z.
i been on bord the h set trains a few times when i was in sydeny back in september last year did a few trips a couple of times from central to gosford and back for a day trip not bad train the h set
What you failed to Mention was the Failure of the then LNP Government to meet with Unions and other stakeholders for their input. The LNP created a Huge mess and that should never be forgotten. We shall wait and see if they give us Lemons.
I've heard that the union bosses did agree to the plan initally, but changed their mind once they found out their members didn't like the idea. And besides, the Government was clear from 2016 at least about how the trains would operate, unions had nothing to say back then
Unions make up 51% of votes in Labor party pre-selections. They are literally an arm of the ALP, this happened in an election year, how is that remotely the LNP's fault that the ALP wanted to win the election?
Lots of good points. I feel a sense of nostalgia for the V sets but you’re right … they don’t meet modern passenger standards. Your video provides some useful balance to the negativity that seems to dominate about the D sets. Perhaps you’d consider making a video on the new NSW Regional Fleet at some point, which also receives a lot of negativity. 🤔
Excellent video. The sooner the new trains are operational on the Blue Mountains line the better. The old trains are dangerous, as mentioned, as I almost suffered a fall from a carriage at Leura in similar circumstances to the blind man. The Luddites in the rail union ought to find another vocation. I have no trouble using metro, subway, regular or non-reversible seating.
The union wasn't arguing against these trains because of the platform gaps which btw will be the same with the new trains if not only slightly smaller. The argument was the guard or driver wouldn't be able to see or hear you if you fell because they'd be stuck in the train relying on a poor cctv system.
No mate, reversible seats out rank tray tables and everything else for comfort and ease of journey. Regardless of international standing, it’s what makes Sydney and NSW trains unique for their passengers.
That's not being "unique", that's being inferior. No tray tables and plug sockets in a 3 hour journey is pretty annoying. Also, the V set seats aren't separated, and are unable to recline. If that isn't inferior, idk what is.
@@Skyler_Park You can still have plug sockets in reversible seating. Tray tables are over rated and unfortunately would get vandalised. It wouldn’t surprise me if the power USB sockets would get vandalised as well. The less objects to touch in public transport the better. Reclining has benefits yes but they only recline to a very small degree. One has to wonder if that’s even worth it for fixed seating.
@@jakez6851 That's a stupid excuse to have... Just because there is a chance of them being vandalised doesn't mean not having them at all is the solution. Those amenities might be nothing to most people, but there's always going to be someone who really needs it. And vandalism is more of a problem with the people using the trains, not the trains themselves. You can't guarantee they would happen often too, so there's no reason to just make the ride less convenient for everyone just to prevent something that's very unlikely to happen most of the time.
@Skyler_Park There isn't just a chance tray tables would be vandalized. It's guaranteed. These trains run almost 24x7, and they're used by eshays and bogans. The eshays will jump on them for fun.
@@Skyler_Park it’s a valid excuse. It is a people problem yes I agree however, the amount of money the tax payer has to pay to keep fixing the trains from vandals is absurd. Etching on the glass, breaking the seat handles (which I have seen broken a few times). In the case of trays and usb chargers it will cost more to fix over and over again. (Don’t forget people won’t wipe down their trays after use). In public transport less is more. The less people to interact with equipment the better. (Being a people problem). Why do you think they removed reversible seats ? They are a pain to repair, just look at the H set trains. The convenience is getting you from point A to point B via mass transit. No need for usb chargers when we have battery packs. Keep it simple. Hop on hop off. Accessibility for entry and exit, comfort and safety. It’s not supposed to be an electrical wonderland for people’s gadgets.
I think you have it wrong in regards to the forward and reverse facing seats. I for one cannot sit in the reverse direction and you just have to look people who avoid travelling in rear facing seats in the Tangara’s…the front facing seat always fill up first.
Your proposed 2-man system of operation is pretty much standard operating procedure here in the States and has been for DECADES. How can they really not think of that as an alternative in their debates?
the new sets are unfit for purpose based on the seating arrangement, fixed seats half backwards and for the regular commuter tables and charge ports are over kill and will be vandalised very quickly. 130 kph on the CCN is highly unlikely. when you have been a commuter for 40 years from Gosford nothing will ever better the V-Sets (except maybe the U boats)
The notion that no one or few people complain about fixed seats is laughable. It is a cost cutting measure by people who will not routinely use trains (or at least long distances). Other than that, it will be exciting once it’s in service.
@@thetrainguy4 If my options are between sitting backwards and having bad motion sickness or standing for a long trip (which is awful end of the day) then yeah I think it is a big deal, and I do believe a lot of people feel the same way
@anothercoginthemurdermachi7209 the rest of the world can manage siting backwards, so most people can here. If you genuinely have motion sickness you can ask for a forward facing seat, or else that’s kinda tough. Like if someone who couldn’t go up stairs couldn’t sit in the vestibule. I’d rather a tray table and charger for 3 hours than facing forwards.
I assume some Oscar sets will still operate peak hour CCN services via Gordon after the whole NIF fleet is in service due to short platforms in the city
@@thetrainguy4 I seen heaps of people board the peak hour CCN services via Gordon. I think its would be nuts to get rid of that service, unless if Gordon services do an cross platform interchange in hornsby or bewora to an CCN platform or frequency increased enough to jusify that for both CCN and gordon services.
A lot of them probably just go to suburban stations. People going further north can change at Central- the intercity North Shore trains chew up way too much capacity for not much benefit over a stopping train.
@@thetrainguy4 Which is faster (as an express, assuming minimal interference with locals), CCN or North Shore? North Shore looks more direct on a map, but both have a lot of curves.
I have caugt the train from Blacktown to Katoomba on a B-Set, and it was not great because, although the trains are great, frequencys suck, and we missed the train by 1 minute, and had to wait an hour at Blacktown
Yea the timing sucks but the D sets won't really improve the frequency on the BMT line. Everything gets stuck between St Mary's and Penrith and will probably get worse with the airport.
I am sorry but there is a reason why the V set have enclosed vestibules mainly cold winter mornings/nights in the Blue Mountains. Likewise these trains were never built to support the numbers of what I have seen, passengers doing short hops between stations, they should be really be using the suburban fleet instead of the intercity fleet. In regard to reversible seats which are the most comfortable out of the entire fleet, why should we accept something that has been like it for many years or accepting a step down in my opinion. Many people don’t know this but the V sets were originally designed to have non reversible seating initially until the community actually raised the issue that they wanted reversible seating for long trips. The D sets have a lot to live up to in comparison with the v sets. Kind regards, somebody who’s father was actually apart of the team that built the V sets at Comeng.
As a Central Coast resident I can only add, can we just get the bloody things on the rails as soon as possible? Let's face it, the old V sets are slower, brakes jerk every time they move off, and the retired 'Boomers' with their bulky bags make moving around impossible. A 4 car train from Woy Woy at 9.17am is a nightmare, people blocking seats with feet, luggage, laptops, people sitting on steps. Keep the guard as a guard, let the driver just drive. Please.
I see a few of these sitting at Gosford everyday probably the same ones with the Depot not far away. These will be the oldest new trains in history, most of them must be 5 years old and yet to run a revenue service. I wonder how that goes with Warranty... Just another NSW Government stuff up.
The trains may well have all the positive points you note, but the abolition of reversible seating, is a very poor step. I don't care that no other network in the world has them. We've had them in Sydney (and then outer-suburban trains) for a very long time. They are popular and are comfortable.
I hate these seats. Not only are they as hard as rocks. Being over 6 foot your shoulders always hit the parts that fold in and you're in for an uncomfortable ride the whole way home.
Sorry, but no. - The separate vestibule on the V-sets helps with insulation of noise, temperature, etc. The V-sets are very "cosy". These new sets are going to be far too "open". We're not architecting a house here. - Same with the windows and lighting. The V-sets small, tinted windows are fantastic for keeping excess sunlight, noise and heat/cold out. I don't want or need giant panes of glass everywhere. These new D sets are really just a facelifted M/H/A/B set train which, honestly, are a poor design for long-distance services. - The lighting on new trains is awful. V sets have dimmer, "warmer" lighting. This is FAR more pleasant. Travelling on the M/H/A/B sets at night is atrociously bad with their constant, blinding, blue-hue light. And I bet these new sets will be the same. No joke, I would go so far as to say this is actually a health hazard. - Reversible seating is a non-negotiable for Sydney commuters. Fixed seating been tried and rejected before. Just don't argue with what passengers want, let them flip the seats. I'm sure a bit of clever engineering could allow for this as well as having power sockets for charging etc. Nobody gives a flying F if others around the world are simply "used to it". If they had it, they would want to keep it as well. And as for "well 50% are forward facing" .. So? That means 50% are rear facing. So unless if the trains are always 50% empty (which they won't be) then you have a problem. The "cons" of the V-sets are trivial relative to the actual quality of the ride overall. There is something seriously wrong if a 50+ year newer train can't do what the V sets accomplished so well, especially when those things are so, so basic.
I agree with the vestibules, something that was going to be addressed by having passenger operated doors but the union threw a hissy fit etc. I hold back judgement on comfort until I can actually ride them. If they are uncomfortable and loud and too sterile then I'll say that. If I think they're nice then I'll say that. We will see.
@@thetrainguy4 Fair enough. To me, these are, for all intents and purposes, just the existing rolling stock but with a 2+2 seating arrangement. I really don't have high hopes, and no doubt a lot of wasted money.
@thetrainguy4 the view is gorgeous heading south winding around the coastline and seeing the beautiful beaches. Heading north there are reminents of old rail bridge supports and you can spot the odd oyster farms on the Hawksbury River. I have family that get sick travelling backwards so if all the forward facing seats are taken, what happens then?!
@nathanlee3748 then you can explain that and hope for the best. What happens if all the seats are taken now, but you get sick if you stand up. The rest of the world has figured this out, it’s not that hard!
No-one else whinges about the non reversible seats so why should we? Come on. Really? Who cares of Europe or Asia. We have reversable seats Central Coast/Newcastle so there would expect that same on the train replacements. I can see that these seats are NOT going to be comfortable for a 2.5 to 3 hours train ride. If you are going to be on re first service, bring a pillow to sit on. As far as usb charging ports are concerned, we do not need them. Read a book instead or carry a power bank.
While they may not whinge about it, visitors praise the fact that Sydney train seats are reversible and wish their trains had them. Also, many people get nauseous travelling backwards on trains. USB ports and wifi are unnecessary these days as we have better battery life in phones and plans with more data. Public wifi will be too slow.
At 1:35. That was what they claimed. Unfortunately a video surfaced of a train in test in South Korea at high speed with all the crew doors open. 5:03. The length is not important, the critical factor is carrying capacity. 5:30 This is where you start talking crap but I forgive you as you have no real world experience of knowledge of what either roll does. 6:44 This is where the non experience show its self. The guard on the train does not sit for 30 minutes doing noting. His task between stations is to monitor customer behaviour, monitor the train and driver behaviour and take action if any are not right. Your dismissive attitude could be applied to say a police officer when he is patrolling the streets or a firefighter waiting for a call to come in. 7:10 Please use trip view and calculate the number of train stops all trains in Sydney make each day, then multiply that by the number of days in a years then the number of years we have had railways in Sydney and then with that number calculate the ratio of incidents of a fall compared to the number of stops. Next find the number of cases where the train guard while watching the train out has observed an unsafe incident and acted to stop the train and so avoided a serious injury or death. I know in my time on trains I had that more times (me not the total network) that the total number of Burwood type incidents. 7:54 At it again. If only you would bother to get all the facts. Read the report. He was blind. Even if the staff did say do not alight from the first car, how can a blind man know he is in the first car and as he had a guide dog, ask why did it allow him to step out of the train, is its job not to guide him to not do that? This guy should be writing for Trump.
1) on test in Korea. Has that been repeated here? 2) 10 car D sets almost definitely carry more people than 8Vs 3) the best way to monitor passenger behaviour is surely to be in the passenger saloon…? I am dismissive because most operators put a second crew member to much better use. I don’t doubt there are some importantly tasks guards do but they can certainly do more. 4) the UK has less fatalities per passenger than NSW (of course most come from suicides and level crossing misuse) and do not have guards hanging out of trains, or even looking out of a window. CCTV turns off after 5mph. The number of falls is minuscule here and overseas and the number of deaths resulting from falls after a train has started departing is zero. 5) any competent rail operator would have systems in place to prevent a door from being opened when not alongside a platform. You cannot defend this obvious safety issue of the V sets. I support 2PO, but other models from around the world can deliver safer railways with models that don’t require guards to be locked away and hanging out of doors. Have you read the independent report? Because that conclusively found the D set proposed operating model (remembering that it did not analyse the actual equipment on the train like cameras etc, that’s a fair criticism) was not only safer than the Waratah model but also safer than every international model they analysed.
These are good points Warren. It means a new video needs to come out and take account of that, maybe deleting / hiding the old one if it's going to be misleading to leave it around. But I do want some kind of video like this one. It carried a number of other points that the mainstream news / public narrative / social media chat doesn't talk about or just simply gets wrong all the time. Things that weren't challenged in this comment. All up it's good really. Digging up the right information and if everyone just keeps going and doing this, we'll reach the right answers. It's SUCH a long way from what you'd learn on a 6pm news report or stupid newspaper article.
Great Video. Brace yourself for the flow of hate that will come from people who can't think critically or compromise on what the union told them. Don't stress there are some people you won't convince. You've explained the issue with the size of the trains in the mountains well, a lot of people don't seem to understand the asset upgrade that had occurred across the rest of the network over the past 20 years to run the OSCARs stopped at Springwood. Don't get me wrong, I don't think these trains are perfect, in fact I'm worried about the comfort factor but there's a few things that were not very well explained with these trains. In the Driver Only Operation model, the passenger interaction with the doors was never explained and allowed naysayers to prosecute their argument well. The argument was that train drivers would be trying to see all the train doors in the dark at unattended platforms in the outer regions. However doors would only operate if passengers interacted with them and the screen would be divided up between the number of doors interacted with. Likely some stations this would be a large number of doors, at others this would be sometimes no doors. The doors would also close after a period of time themselves, similar to the trains operated in Melbourne (with this operations accepted by the same union). I think a better option would have been the Vline model on the Vlocity, where the guard roams the train and is not in the cab, but stands on the platform with a remote and closes the doors. This means they are not stuck in place in a cab. I would also prefer to see the Guard and Driver in the same cab to ensure that there is no communication issue between them however this would not fit with the "Waratah Model" the union has requested.
I am not so familiar with the rail scene in Australia so please do correct me if I got anything wrong. So these are suppose to be intercity trains… right? As in the new ones that will run up to 3 hours. Are there even… any sort of catering is gonna be onboard? Surely they won’t be this cruel to not add any sort of vending machine onboard- would they?? If there isn’t, is that typically a norm for the past few decades for these type of train and services?
trains in aussie that dont run overnight / longer than 5 hrs generally dont have catering, im from tassie and had never caught a long train for commuting, i wasnt used to this and although i thought there would be food, i have caught a 3 hour train in nsw and you dont need food for that timr
@@ludwigtails no, we went from wynyard (sydney cbd) to blacktown (near the edge of the suburbs) on a 1 1/2 hr train and then anouther 1 1/2 hr train to katoomba (regional town) and although it was long, you dont actually notice cuz its not as long as it seems, especially whrn u arent a regular train personl as my home state doesnt have rail
@tasmanianmapping I remember when Tasmania had a wonderful train service. I caught the train from Devonport to Hobart in 1974 after arriving on the Ferry from Melbourne. The journey was beautiful, and the train was as good, if not better, than anything we had in NSW at the time.
@@aussiejohn5835 im not that old to have been on that, but im from launceston, have been on the trams at the tramway museum here, and it wouod be so much better if we had this transit. Currently we have metro buses that are so infrequent my suburb gets 3 buses a day and none on weekends, plus NO afternoon commuter service.
The Mariyungs are now in service (spoiler: they're REALLY nice!)
ua-cam.com/video/OMlWUTBT1Vo/v-deo.html
I don't care what anyone says, the V-Sets are the most comfortable train known to man. It's like riding on a Chesterfield lounge with wheels.
Could not agree more. And that Closed cabin and carpet. Can't sleep on the Oscars that's for sure 🤣
@@floydewar5880 Sure and I always liked them, but they have big issues you need to be honest with yourself about.
Go to Melbourne and have a ride in their Sprinter and V/locity trains. Fabric covered "bucket" seats, even better than the Vs. Trains in Japan are very good too.
i agree, also it is the legendary beast of sydney trains
@@BigBlueMan118 true
I agree with everything except the seats point. What makes the Vsets special to a lot of people is that they're so damn comfy, even if they're 60odd years old. They have the best seats of any of the Sydney trains fleet. It'll be super disappointing if the Dsets don't live up to them, and they're already put themselves behind the Vsets by not having reversible seating.
Overseas passengers do not know what they are missing so they don't complain. The argument that they are "happy" carries little weight. I don't miss the absence of a tray table on current trains for Sydney to Newcastle travel.
@@listohan Exactly. I'm only on the train for 1-2.5 hours. I'm not eating a three course meal (snacks and water bottle at most). If I need to work on my laptop, my lap has always worked well.
These overseas passengers often don't have the interurban category like we do - Sydney to Springwood, Sydney to Gosford etc. Our country trains (e.g. Sydney to Grafton) are the best comparison to what's being cited overseas - a very different category of travel.
@@listohan Point well made. I'd only counter with, having travelled a lot in those other countries - you can't judge a seat from a photo. In fact the more I experience, the less I'm confident. I think people almost need blindfolds to judge seat comfort now. Side note: If you're buying outdoor furniture at Ikea etc, try every single option - I can't believe how good the ones I got are, every time I sit on them, when I see how square they look and even how lightweight they are to carry. Seat science - it's an art, not a science?? Or an under-appreciated skill. I sure know that the airlines can make some big mistakes when "upgrading" or refurbishing their planes, and newer doesn't mean better. But where it matters most - not trains, not planes, but it's buses. These get the LEAST attention and you can't even judge them in a showroom. Nothing wobbles MORE than a damn bus. You need support AND comfort otherwise the passenger is constantly working their core muscles instead of being able to relax. Some bus rides end up as a secret fitness gym. That's why - and you see people struggle to explain it - trams are so much better than buses. "Smoother ride" is barely scratching the surface of what rails versus roads is all about. Rails 100%.
I hate the newer trains. Just salvage the V-set seats and everyone will be happy
The V sets used to be even more comfortable than they are now
When the XPTs first came out, they had fixed seating;. The feedback complaints resulted in them being replaced with rotators. The Tangaras got fixed seats, again the complaints resulted in the last batch, then the Oscars and Waratahs, getting reversibles (even if they are not the most comfortable). Seems the only thing that TfNSW has learned from past mistakes, is how to make them again.
So you're telling me there's a chance?
Until the Railways of NSW (and Queensland and...) buy a handful of prototype trains, flog them to death to iron out all the bugs then order a decent train, problems with new train introductions will continue.
Just look at the NSW order for bimodal country trains. Do you seriously think CAF is going to bend too much for the onslaught of government changes for that small order of rolling stock. Yeah, nuh.
Just look at QR with the NGR introduction. 76 sets needing a second toilet pod plus seat adjustments, plus, plus because a dickhead in government doesn't know how to review a specification. $ 400 Ms. Open yah wallets Mr and Mrs J Taxpayer.
Oops...blowing more smoke than an ALCo diesel lol.
As an intercity driver my self I highly doubt we will see these in service within the next few months, they are still having other issues with the train such as ATP.
Any insight into whether the management style has changed since March 2023, and whether that's sped up or slowed down anything? We're entering "Berlin airport" territory of bizarre delays now, or Opera House for another comparison (though that was easier to keep one eye on). I wouldn't even care so much except that these trains only last 30 years, not like the olden days, so we've shot past 10% and are in real danger of hitting 25% total lifespan now. I haven't even really thought about if that's a bigger deal than the additional storage costs (versus just buying something 5 years later and goes into revenue in record time) and maintenance of an old fleet, which surely only goes up per year, not even predictable.
What is ATP?
@@mightyknight automatic track protection... I think its like speed limiters for trains to basically make sure they don't exceed safe track speeds.
The track alignments in NSW rarely permit 160km/h running. This is especially true on the line to Wollongong.
Sure- but the line between Thirroul and Wgong is actually very straight and there have been some fairly advanced proposals in the past for a 160km/h tunnel between Thirroul and Waterfall.
Who knows.
@@thetrainguy4 I think a Thirroul-Waterfall tunnel makes sense from an operational point of view anyway, they struggle to run even 4 trains an hour on the Illawarra line south of Waterfall consistently due to the single-track section and the grades are difficult, plus I think the maintenance of the current alignment is quite difficult and expensive and isn't viable long-term. Even in a context of a NSW High Speed Rail network which will likely go via Macarthur down the Maldon-Dombarton area, it makes sense to have a faster higher-capacity line from Wollongong along the coast to Sutherland.
@thetrainguy4 That was last proposed in the mid-90s in Action for Transport 2010. If it was going to happen, it would have happened already. If there was a chance it'd get resurrected, it would be dragged over multiple elections, 1 for the feasibility study, another for the start of construction, and it'd be finished in 12 years in time for another election. By then the trains will be around 20 years old and we'll have been stuck sitting backwards for 15 years. Pass.
Then it's about time we improved those track alignments.
@@BigBlueMan118 Yes except one thing. People really don't understand how much has been mined underneath the escarpment and how difficult said tunnel if not impossible it would be to actually build.
A Brit looking over from an outside perspective here - But even I agree that the reversable seats that you Aussies currently have are far superior to our fixed seat model.
I often hate having to sit backwards, especially on longer journeys, it even makes me feel nauseous sometimes. You lot are truly lucky to have the option over there, it's a shame they've removed it with these sets to better match what we do over here (probably for the sake of capacity, a lot of trains here have non existent legroom).
Still, a good video, we've had way too many issues with our own new train introductions here too (Especially the Class 777 in my own region).
If there was reversible seating, the trains would be much better. However, one thing I do like is that the door buttons will actually function, unlike those on the H Sets. It's the worst feeling ever when the train is nice and warm on a rainy day, and the doors just open, taking all the heat away and water comes into the vestibule like a waterfall.
No: door buttons have been removed and control given entirely to guards I thought.
Reversible seats trope is totally overrated in NSW. People are currently putting up with TERRIBLE seats on H sets for long trips for the reversible seat fetish. As said in the video that means no tables, seats not properly moulded for ergonomics, chargers would have to be overhead or on the wall, trains are heavier I would much rather a comfortable high-backed seat than reversible ones. I live in Germany now, none of the long-distance trains here have reversible seats even on long trips, 50% face the direction of travel 50% away. It's fine.
I hope you are right that they'll have door buttons and consistent operation... I.e. passenger controlled all the time.
Light rail was initially passenger controlled, but reverted to override during covid and they haven't switched back to passenger control 🤦🏻♂️
Tbh I don't know a single person that has actually has an issue with automatic doors opening and closing because of weather/temperature. It's not something that most people even notice, especially when most passengers are seated up and downstairs. I think reversible seating is what NSW folk are far more obsessed and picky with.
@@mgp1203 thats because the coldest line, the Blue Mountains Line, uses Vsets which are passenger operated and have an internal cabin door which shields the main passenger areas. Passengers will notice it for sure when the NIFs go into service in the Mountains and people will rightfully be Mad as hell.
@@BigBlueMan118 that's not an excuse to not have reversible seats as there are many examples worldwide with reversible seats that feature tray tables and charging points (even such in a double decker formation), such as the Shinkansen or bilevel Green Cars in Japan, or even our own XPTs.
Fully concur with the majority of your comments - they sure will be a major improvement for everyone, especially those with mobility issues. The V sets were a great 'workhorse' but well past their 'use by date'. The only issue is of course the 'reverse seating' ; something not many passengers like, especially for a long journey on a train (in fact some may suffer from motion sickness). True in Europe it is common to have the same forward & reverse seating on long-distance trains. In Japan, they overcome this problem with the crew being able to switch all the seats around with the flick of a button (trust the Japanese). Overall, if the frequency is increased then perhaps the issue of reverse seating is not as critical - only time will tell once the new fleet is finally in service.
I think people will eventally ignore it and just put up with it..... there are some people (like myself) that want to sit backwards rather than forwards and would go out of my way to pick it...
Most people don't want the V sets to run forever. What they do want is a spiritual successor to the V set - A train with the things people love, like closed in vestibules and comfortable reversible seats, but with better safety, better accessibility and toilets you actually want to use (I wouldn't go in a V set toilet to even just wash my hands). We made a great train before, we could do it again. But what we did instead was purchase the spiritual successor to the G and H set. A suburban train with some interurban features bolted on.
I hope these increase services to Newcastle as well especially on weekends, they have the same maximum speed limit as the XPT does today, their design is an evolution of the H set but with 2x2 rows and half have 6-cars and built overseas. Most of the trains are in Australia now with I believe only a few left getting built and tested in South Korea.
8:53 you can still have a properly molded seat, with charge ports and a tray table that also rotates. Shinkansen and other trains do this in Japan so is totally doable.
also some Shinkansen seats even manage to also have a leg rest, adjustable headrest, reading light, seat heater and electric recline.
Yes but that requires rotating seats which must be operated by crew.
@@thetrainguy4 not really. Pax can still rotate the seats. I have done it multiple times
@@thetrainguy4until they were retired a couple of years ago, in Queensland, we had our ICEs which had seats that could be rotated, they didn't require crew, you pressed down a foot lever, and spun the seat.
@@thetrainguy4 The process can be automated as well, it's done even in Tokyo's routes.
Reversing seats I think is a bigger issue than suggested here. Sure you can point to the UK where they don’t have an alternative but we have an existing culture and etiquette with reversing seats which is great and sad to see go. Firstly facing towards is not a guarantee since once that half fills up first (which will almost always be the case as it is on tangaras) you’ll have no choice but an unpleasant backward journey. Secondly you lose the current advantage which is when a train is at low capacity you can get unobscured views outside without a seat back blocking half the window. And finally if you are in larger groups (which is often the case for these longer journeys from experience) there are far fewer spaces unlike right now when you can create group seating anywhere. I think charges can easily be put in the walls rather than the seats and that this is a bad move:/
I think this is a personal preference, for many it is a huge issue, for others like myself I'm happy with this choice as long as the seat is 3 hour trip comfortable...
@DAEMTAM For many like me, it's a necessary preference due to a medical condition that causes vertigo and sickness when facing backwards even for a short journey.
9:53 Thanks for a well constructed review. There will be more than one carriage in which to find a forward facing seat. Almost everywhere in Europe has a similar fixed seating arrangement. And saving weight means less wear and tear on the vehicles and infrastructure.
@kimballthurlow577 That's a stupid statement to make because the trains are 8 cars long, and it's not possible to know where to stand on the platform in order to get a forward facing seat unless we have some super power that sees the vacant seat and propels us to the seat from possibly 8 cars distant.
@@aussiejohn5835 you can walk through the entire train once you are onboard. Don’t people walk anymore? Queensland has not had reversible seating since 1979.
The reversing seats were amazing on all the years I got to use those trains (haven't been on a train in Sydney for like 6-7 years), they were comfortable and when you were travelling in groups of people you could have seats facing each other so you could talk and interact far easier. We have similar seats to the ones proposed up in Queensland, and they're average in comfortability, quite stiff and vertical.
Also, I see those tray tables being wrecked in like six months, the charging ports probably stuffed full of gum... nice features, sure.. but good luck with how some people treat trains.
Honestly wish these were being made in Australia, the lack of manufacturing of things like this down here these years is frankly disturbing.
The RTBU is a representative body for the majority of front-line workers who actually care enough about their jobs to say something when safety issues arise. This bashing of a union of workers is unhinged!
I fully support unions. The RTBU though have time and time again made it their policy to campaign against such trivial things (like rear door loading or passenger operated doors etc) and their push in this case to return to a proven unsafe operating model is just another example. I'm not supporting the former government, I'm not supporting this union specifically. The NIF safety report makes for grim reading regarding the operating model the RTBU insist on using.
@@thetrainguy4 you’ve just proven you have no idea what you’re talking about. If you think the NIF safety report is independent, you need to think again. Safety isn’t trivial to the RTBU and it’s members.
@jameslvsjo why wouldn’t it be independent.
I don’t like the non reversible seats & I think most will agree
"Most" will ask you to comment on what was in the video. The discussion went into detail, and you're still at the starting line.
When you are on a train for a couple of hours the only thing you really care about is the comfort of the seat. I'll leave work later to skip the Oscar and get a v set just for the seat. Dreading the intro of the d set. Only half the seats pointing the right way and they look rock hard and way to vertical
Trust me commuting from Central Coast, seats are hard and not comfortable. Apart from no change in speed, nothing you can make this train special.
The new carriages made by Pt. INKA Surabaya for Indonesia, Pilipinas & Thailand have moulded seats which spin around to face forward.
They also have WiFi & mobile device power outlets for laptop, tablet, headphone & phone charging.
8:02 That accident with the blind man occurred at Leura, so he must have been travelling on a V set, not a H Set. Also, the doors of H Sets do NOT open at stations where the door/s might not be facing the platform. There are several short 1 car platforms around (and even a one-door platform at Wondabyne) and the guard controls which doors will open. It's the V sets which don't have that arrangement.
That’s literally exactly what I said…
9:00 So, just because "few other countries" have reversible seats, NSW is not allowed to have them? What a weak argument! Two countries similar in size to Australia, Canada and the U.S., have had them. Indeed the reversible seats in the original Sydney Suburban sets had a U.S. patent mark on them. London trams had reversible seats from 1908 until the closure of their first tram system in 1952. A vintage Blackpool tram has reversible seats on one side and longitudinal seats on the other side! So they are more common than the reversible seat opponents claim.
Here is a crazy idea...now stay with me here, we build our own trains at facilities such near cardiff ensuring they're fit for purpose to begin with.
What a silly idea 😂😂😂
Give jobs to Australians? Bring back our own manufacturing industries?! MADNESS! Think of those poor factory workers in like... Korea or Europe... or whatever.
So then Australian manufacturers get screwed around by incompetent liberal governmetns and the unions? Okay...
This is the best introduction to the Dsets that I have seen and I agree with most of your points except for the seating not being reversible. I have a medical condition that is severely affected when not facing the direction of travel and I tend to avoid the Tsets for this reason. I have seen the crew door operating independently of the passenger doors soon after the trains arrival in 2020 whilst on display at Central. The union approved all the safety features including the driver only feature until it was evident that they would receive a severe backlash from their members. Thanks for this excellent presentation.
i don't like going backwards either, nor bus or train or light rail or ferry. I get sick
@@TheRealMillennium I am glad that I am not the only one.
...but half the seats still face forwards? If they're all taken you could just politely explain that you need it - i don't mean to belittle your disability or anything but i don't really see how that's any different from how someone who can't stand for long periods would ask for a seat? I know it's not quite as ideal as the current situation but still
@strawberrysoup1 I do understand what you are saying, but unfortunately, I can't take the chance that nobody would give me their seat because the consequences of that would not be good. I will say that the majority of young people do offer me their seat on a short suburban journey but not so much on a journey of 2 or more hours, which I understand. Having reversible seats would make everyone happy.
Half the seats face in the direction of travel so I can't see any problems. What medical or mental issue would cause some people to be distressed facing the opposite direction of travel? I am nonplussed.
I only have one question: Does "5 years late" have any impact on service life? Does the clock start ticking when it starts testing? I feel like the answer is totally tied up to the equation of maintenance spending and refurbishments spending, in a comparison to amortised replacements in a 30-year versus 60-year period. It seems to me that 50 years ago, maintenance costs were just relatively lower than complete replacements - reflecting life in other areas of buying equipment and repairing it.
9:10 yes!! Why is nobody else asking about WHICH way the fixed seats are facing. Surely having all the seats face INWARD means that everybody gets more exterior views, from more window visibility. Plus it totally lets a group of 4 people meet and convene, with the rare opportunity of a common table laid out. It can be used for games, refreshments, or just laptops.
(I'm sad that the original D-set thought-bubbles & scoping work included such Nice Things™ as cafeterias or even a drinks bar … just like the double-decker Manly Ferry used to have … but we're now in a world where both are going or going back into permanent service with no such luxury)
8:35 THANKYOU. It needs to be 100% reinforced that H-sets long ago, and then G-sets long ago before that, were deliberately purchased in spite of the Ten Tunnels problem, with a total inference that the tunnels were the real issue and needed changing. It was only a musical-chairs scenario that the last government had to announce an "oh no" style of works to change the tunnels. Disingenuous media clickbait, that's all … and the public narrative went solid.
The trains haven’t been used much in the 5 years so there won’t be much wear and tear etc. Some impact nonetheless
I don’t like how there is only 1 seat per carriage to my liking on the D sets as there is only 1 seat row with a whole window view as the others face backwards or only have half a window and the front seat have the annoying display board in the way I get the feeling I won’t like them
Yeah, I generally like to sit far back in the carriage, in a seat that gets the full window. That way I get a good view outside and can see what's going on in my carriage - a habit I picked up when I was a kid growing up in the inner west (back when it was a bit rough). You didn't want to keep your back on potential trouble.
Completely agree that customer saloon operated doors should have been the model. Keep two crew operation, but have the second walking train and operating the doors from the customer saloons.
Except if they train separates or derails that crew member is going to be a lot less useful if they're in the unoccupied set.
@@soph_the_great_Aus everything is a balance of the risk profile, likely hood and impact... If you can show me that your scenario is likely than I'll agree we need that mitigation... But I highly doubt your scenario has a high risk rating i.e. very unlikely
@DAEMTAM simply saying that something is highly unlikely so we don't need to mitigate the risk only makes the risk more possible and makes the impact of such event even worse.
Not only that, none of our trains are designed to be walked through except a waratah.
Not only that it takes on average 3 - 7 minutes to walk through an 8 car set.
I'll also point out that given the people that train crew encounter, having them walk through the train increases the likely hood of injury from a passenger in the concept they're proposing.
I'll also point out, that during peak a fully loaded train would make door operations near impossible from a vestibule control system and would have a higer risk of being operated by non authorised people.
The reliance on CCTV cameras is another issue given that cctv is unreliable at the best of times given it has a 3 - 7 second delay depending on the set and 90% of the Fleet doesn't have external cameras.
It's all well and good to suggest ideas but it's clear most of the people commenting have no absolutely no idea what it's like from an Operational point of view.
Most rail staff in other countries that I have spoken to personally prefer our method of working, it's just that Management is cheap and trying to retrain the amount of staff would take years.
If people do want staff walking through the train then Employee more staff to do that, don't restrict or change roles based on a suggestion from someone that has never had to do the job.
@@soph_the_great_Aus first off, there are multiple ways you can mitigate risk.
These trains were designed to mitigate the risk by enabling driver only operations. If a seperation or derailment was to occur they have fail safe systems designed in.
@@soph_the_great_Aus these new trains are designed for walk through.
Not sure what your point about the time taken to walkthrough is about? It takes me 5 minutes to walk to the bathroom at work, but it's not relevant to the operation of the office...
Think this video is fair and factual. It's important to remove train enthusiasts bias to make these kinds of videos relatable to an audience outside the train fraternity.
I would find it difficult to create such a balanced video as I will now demonstrate...
I love the V sets and remember the 80s and 90s where the ride quality was better than today and favourably comparable on an international basis.
Now, carriages using different control systems...resistor camshaft v/s GTO chopper thyristor.. are mixed. This is known to worsen ride quality, particularly in adverse weather conditions.
Dont get me started on the luke warm, if any, regenerative braking on most sets. Skidding into stations under harsh regen is now a faint memory.
On the seats issue, it is true Sydneysiders have been spoilt with reversible seats. I suppose this comes from an era of pioneering train design and not the beige conformist approach taken today.
The D sets are certainly very stylish, but fit the modern plastic approach to train design which shows no design innovation at all.
p.s.
The reason the D sets have been lolling around for so long is that the Railways were secretly doing static weathering tests on the exterior finishes 😮
CCN track side modifications on 11 stations for new operating model is slated for August 2-3rd, new signage and balises being moved to new locations. The inclusion of 8 car markers for NIF trains is interesting, they tested 8 car configs in 2021 so either they are future proofing for a potential 4+4 or just doing it as an optional thing. And according to railsafe notices Sydney Trains has taken over the intercity (non-booked) services from Trainlink, starting July 1st.
Looking forward to using the better bike racks on the blue mountains line, plus the big bike logo on the side of the train tells you where they are, unlike the current trains.
Several have commented on the fixed seating arrangement, it is an European concept, it follows on from the compartment seating arrangement, used for many years in NSW & other state railways on long distance over night country trains, the reversable or tip over seating was first used on rolling stock in sydney as early as 1880's on suburban "yankee" stock or end platform cars,( do not confuse these with the country yankee sets that had toilets), this type of seating came from the US, this seating arrangement was adopted on the first steel body suburban fleet later referred to as red rattlers during electrification in the 1920's, maybe those in Europe/England don't suffer from the discomfort of travelling backwards, but a lot of people here do, including myself.
A fair bit of status quo bias. It's a pretty cool feature in itself but it deprives passengers of much more worthy things (as I mentioned) that are beyond standard on similar trains in Europe, Asia and even the US (despite your suggestion). If you are uncomfortable facing backwards then sit in a forward facing seat, it's not rocket science.
@@thetrainguy4 are yes same old glib answer, of course I would if I was the first to board the train, but as most passengers prefer to face forwards, by time I board the train those seats are already occupied, & that is based on my experience travelling on the T4 line that has only the Tangara fleet these days, unless a converted Tangara G set is in train consist.
Well then unfortunately that’s tough. It’s the same for everyone if a train arrives and it’s standing room only. You can’t please everyone.
One of the great things abou the V set reversible seats, was that you could allow a family or group of friends to seat facing each other. It modern conveniences means anti social, then these trains fit the bill.
The D sets look absolutely gorgeous, and for me, them, along with the M sets, are one of the best train designs of the world.
Though I don't really care to complain about the seats, they *could* have had rotating seats as seen on the Shinkansen and other East Asian trains, since Hyundai Rotem does have the technology to build them and has already done so for so many of the trains over here in South Korea.
Really don't understand the hate about everything else though.
I think the problem with rotating seats is that they can't expect passengers to do it themselves, because it's easier to get your fingers caught in them, and you can't have people sitting on the seats adjacent while you rotate them, so they would have to do it at the terminus stations (which is definitely possible for long distance trains). However it would have also meant fewer seats or less leg room in the trains because right now they have two static seats back to back in the centres of the cars, you would have to space these further apart if they could rotate.
The seats are fixed and the way they are to meet the new fire-life safety requirements.
A and B with low back seats are ok, but for a high back seat - look at the Oscars for how hard they are to meet that requirement.
By making the seats fixed, you actually reduce weight and flammable material locations (one side being non flammable plastic or fibreglass, meaning you can install more padding
@@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042
One of the Hyundai Rotem-built trains (ITX-Cheongchun) has seats that rotate automatically, so if those were implemented it wouldn't be much of a problem. (as long as you only rotate them at the terminus that is)
@@rogue265
I'm not sure what the point of your comment is, rotating seats also require only 1 side of padding so I don't see your comment fitting my point
@@Skyler_Park because NSW won't do that because the NSW train link times require on board staff to rotate the seats.
I'm sure the guard would love to do that 8-) but at least it would get them out of the damn cabin.
I was giving the reason why the seats were fixed basically
I agree they look pretty good and will probably be a great step forward especially the 2+2 seating. But a few points...
Reversible seating is not common internationally. But the best railway system in the world (Japan shinkansen) can do it. And it is a feature of Australian trains that is universally praised by visitors. Surely reversible seats and usb points can be made to be compatible.
The tunnel stuff may be true - but was never mentioned until the trains arrived. I must admit it all sounds a bit like post facto justification (or post fxxxup). Call me cynical.
But the most important point is the billions wasted because the government didn't have the fight with the unions before they ordered the trains rather than after they were delivered and paid for.
Also on the narrow gauge express services in Japan such as the Tokiwa and Hitachi. The cleaners rotate all seats to face forwards when the train terminates. You don't have a choice about facing forwards! I can't see any technical reason why charging ports could not be used in such a system. Their seats already have trays.
Rotating seats have to be spaced further apart and you can't have the back-to-back seats like the D sets do in the centre of the cars. This would either mean less leg room or fewer seats if they did it for these trains.
As for "not hearing about the width thing until they were delivered" as someone who has been paying attention to the D sets from the start, the government most definitely designed the width of the trains intentionally and always planned on widening the tunnels to accommodate this. It was clear from day 1 that they had built the trains to practically the same dimensions as the Oscars, and stated their reason for doing so is consistency with the rest of the fleet, and extra width so they can have wider seating. This was a case of the news making up stories or rather, telling the story in a way which made people think they did it accidentally. The news said they ordered trains "too wide for the tunnels" which gives the impression it was accidental, which is not true and never was. They did order trains "too wide" for the (existing) tunnels (and also have had a plan for ages to widen the tunnels). If they had ordered narrow trains, the news could have gone on about how they are "sacrificing passenger comfort" by ordering narrower trains than the rest of the fleet, just because of a few tunnels in the blue mountains.
V sets have always been 2+2 and reversible. It's a step backwards
@@SomeGuy818 Absolutely. Hyundai Rotem, who build revervsible seats for the Korean market are laughing all the way to the bank.
When these trains do come out, could they follow a similar timetable on the CCN on weekdays like how (Mostly) 1 Newcastle service does express all the way and one doing all stops to newcastle.
I see a lot of tourists getting on V sets at Central, with the seats still set for the inbound direction. These people don't realise the seats tip over, so will happily sit facing backwards for the trip, unless they see a local tipping them over and the penny drops.
Of course these tourists include those clever Americans who get on the train from the Grand Concourse end, and the first thing they ask is "which way does the train go"?
5:46 - Wrong! The single track 1888 Clifton Tunnel and its associated 2km of single track considerably hampers South Coast train operations. No way you are going to get a 30 minute off-peak service, let alone a 15 minute frequency in peak periods. NSW Transport bureaucrats still do semantic somersaults to justify the 2-hourly service to smaller South Coast stations on weekends.
They already do a 20 minute peak frequency, you don't sound like you know more than Sydney Trains timetable planners...
@@thetrainguy4 20 minutes is not 15 minutes. You might think that surely it would be easy to shorten the gap to 15 minutes in peak period, but it is not. South Coast trains have to compete for spots with the very busy section from Sutherland onwards. It also comes at the cost of half-hourly peak services in the opposite direction Central/Bondi Jun to Wollongong.
The bureaucrats also justify the two hourly service on weekends to the smaller South Coast stations by saying that you can get a south-bound train to Thirroul and change there. The problem with this: if you can't get say the 3.15pm train from Otford to Central, they say get the 3.30pm train from there to Thirroul and change to the first stop Helensburgh train. The connection gap at Thirroul is, however, very tight, a mere 3 minutes. If the all stations train is just a few minutes late (as it often is) then "customers" miss the train at Thirroul.
It's not the train planners and controllers I have an issue with, it's the politicians and their allied senior bureaucrats making silly announcements that the planners know can't be implemented.
I think it’s unfair to paint all guards with the same brush. Vast majority are diligent and do their job with pride.
Yeah they do their jobs, but they don't currently have any duties when traveling between stations so they sit in the cab doing what they want. I encourage guards to do this, what else are you going to do betweens stations? They do often speak to passengers when required, but if they started walking down the train now they might not be able to get back before the next station. They used to be able to perform their guard duties at any set of passenger doors, now days while it's physically possible, the operating rules prevent it I'm pretty sure.
@@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042 I think if guards were expected to roam trains for customer service or ticket-checking purposes, there would have to be 2 present on the train. Similar to how transport officers and police travel in multiples. What are your thoughts on this?
Seriously, guards these days are useless. Even their most basic job of making announcements they can't do properly. Sick of them mumbling or do nothing at all. Try peaking at rear carriage, you would see them glued on mobile phones.
Great video as always!😀I was wondering what this Oscar Obsolescence Program was and I haven't heard about it till I watched this video, could you provide a link for more info regarding the program and the H sets transfer into Sydney trains. However I don't think the transfer would be relavent as the government is proposing to transfer operations of NSWTrainlink to Sydney Trains from 1 July 2024, the operation of all ‘non-booked’ services - including the electric fleet, the South Coast and Hunter intercity diesel services, the Bathurst Bullet and Southern Highlands services, and Moss Vale and Lithgow depots - are proposed to transfer to Sydney Trains. Which I found from the NSW TrainLink Corporate Plan 2024-2025. I thought that Sydney trains and NSWTrainlink had the same operation like drivers and guards, probably seen why the RTBU wanted the D sets to have them be like the Waratahs operating style.
No public info about the OOP but it’s being done at Hornsby MC. Intercity services have been operated by Sydney Trains since 1 July as you say. Once enough D sets have entered service the H sets will all move to Hornsby MC and run sector 3 suburban services.
The V set seats were the best I've ever experienced. Just perfect for a tired and weary university student coming home late at night. Safer than the suburban trains too.
I still cannot get my head around the fact people can support the RTBU on this despite them demanding removal of passenger operated door function. This is just insane, why does the RTBU hate modern technology? Just irrational.
Go and tell people in the Blue Mountains on a -4°C morning all doors have to open because the RTBU wants it that way. Or on a hot day up the coast or in the west. Just nuts. More than anything else, that shows you the RTBU isn't a good-faith negotiator. "Safety" removing proven modern tech and demanding their guards hang out the side of a moving train despite their staff having fallen out the train is another.
Seriously? I thought they were only complaining about the cctv and guard operated doors! Crazy if they forced the removal of passenger controlled options for cold and hot weather!
@@DAEMTAM theyre definitely being disabled and I have read a Lot of people saying they are being taken out of the new trains completely. Brought to you by the RTBU.
@@BigBlueMan118 thank you (and booooo to the RTBU)
Amazing that Melbourne has been running all their suburban trains of different types for many years now with driver-only operation and passenger opening doors (after released by driver). No apparent decrease in passenger safety either.The RTBU is just about saving the guard's jobs (which is in their interest too). And how many accidents has having a guard prevented?
@@cliffleigh7450 there is a huge difference between the trains in Melbourne, and the trains in Sydney and intercity. There are platforms that have extreme curves, moreso than here. So yes it would be a severe decrease in safety. And to add, the incident in Melbourne where a school kid ended up being killed due to the curved platform would have been prevented if we had guards.
The fact you are so nonchalant about the reversible seats tells me you don’t rely on the v sets for long distances. It’s not so much the reservibility of them but they are so rugged and comfortable that the rough journey that occurs going up and don’t the mountain is negated by the comfort. They are rugged and thick because they are expected to move.
The molded seats of these new trains will be fixed and only minimal padding.
As I said, I'm reserving judgement of comfort until I can experience it first hand. Then I'll be as critical as I like about seats of both sets.
Seats are fixed, so some people will have to sit facing opposite the direction of travel. A lot of people dont like travelling like that
I cannot wait for these to come out, I love going past near tuggerah on a train and seeing trains looking brand new like, just sitting there doing nothing.
I knew a guy who had worked as a guard on City Rail for 20 years who told me that all guards sleep the whole time until they train starts nearing Redfern and then they wake up to do the announcements for the city stations only
I can tell you now that is not the case. Who do you think open and shuts the doors??
Airline tray tables have been found to be carry more bacteria than toilet seats, so results from a similar test of these train tables will make for interesting reading.
It’s ok, they’ll be broken in only a few months and they’ll realize it will be cheaper to take them out rather than continuously have to keep getting them repaired. They’ve made trains for countries who respect public property but we don’t have train passengers like that in Australia.
Yes that's true. I doubt NSW has budget for maintenance and cleaning.
Been riding the V sets from Tuggerah to Central constantly for almost my entire life. I am beyond excited for competent bike racks and outlets, but man I will miss those reversible seats.
As a frequent OSCAR user from the extremety of the nextwork, I can confidently say that passenger -operated doos would definitely be an improvement. On a cold winter day, the temperature change from cozy and warm to freezing cold every time doors open for no reason is a absolute pain in the arse - as would having to face backwards for in excess of 3.5 hrs as would be the case with a peak hour trip from Newcastle to Sydney. There are plenty of trains built "off the shelf" with reversible seats, tray tables, and charging ports.
Pretty much nailed it. A 10 car D set is about 9 metres longer than an 8 car V set. The latter are too marrow to be considered safe by todays standards. Their replacements needed to have the same car length and body widrh as suburban trains so that gap fillers can be fitted where necessary.
I caught a V set from Eastwood to West Ryde on the first day in service in 1970 (still had clear plastic on the carpeted wall panels). There were grumblings then about the cabins being stuffy with fixed windows and the risk of people talling down the stairs. My schoolmmates and i just loved it. Let's face it. The S sets were horrible.
9:11 they could have reversable seats and tray tables by having a cushioned tray table in the seat, kind of like in the back seat of a car although you probably cant have charger ports and it would also hinder the performance
That’s not a great idea I can’t lie, it’d fill up with dandruff so quickly
@@thetrainguy4 yeah true lol
Why not make longer platforms?
I have a correspondence with V/line in Melbourne suggesting that every platform serviced by a Vlocity train be 6 cars long to avoid being told to alight from the centre of the train.
I hope they do this instead of closing the short stations.
They aren't closing short platforms, these trains will make them safer (and more efficient) by allowing all possible doors to open but leaving all others locked. As for extensions they are expensive and often not justified by passenger use. Adamstown was extended to avoid blocking the level crossing but no other little stations were iirc.
First revenue D set train leaves Newcastle Interchange platform 2 towards Central at 8:21am tomorrow morning on the 3rd of December 2024 AEDT
The video mentions increased frequency on the South Coast lines, which is great, but they also need to fix the lousy frequency (once in 2 hrs!) from Mt Vic to Lithgow (and do something more for Lithgow to Bathurst/Orange). Lithgow is apparently good enough to stable D sets (for years). It's also good enough to RUN them there more often.
there are less seats available more people have to stand on their commute home. possibly up to 2 hours
Its only bad due to the lack of reversible seats but for me it doesn't really matter as well as its late and cost
It would have been sensible for ALL stakeholders to be involved in developing the design brief. Then see what was available and negotiate the required mods and final details with the manufacturer. Might then have had a result which in the main suited most people, on time and within budget.
My big issue is the seats, they don't look comfortable in the slightest, the high back is way to straight and there is definitely not enough padding. Tray tables are completely unnecessary, they almost never get used on V/Line services so removing reversible seats for that was a waste. it would be a lot less controversial if they went with Vlocity seats.
If I remember correctly the W sets too had problems but they were ironed out and the problems will be overcome in time with these sets too unless they were a faulty design from the get go. In forty years time these new sets will be looked upon as not fit for current use and they too will have a cult following as it happens to all trains when they get to a certain age.
I think the usb and power outlet on the seat is probs the reason why the seats aren't reversible (that what i think, but can work with the plugs being underneath the seats for both sides) and probs more likely to break than set seats. But I find it pretty boring sitting front facing.
The guard thing shouldn't have happened and due to the nature of NSW train stations. Its will need guards for the existance of NSW trains and be adopted into all future fleets.
Yes Melbourne and others trains worked with driver only, but i think its far too messy to try and apply it here.... can be done but the as mentioned, the camera that the driver used is pretty shit.
Perth as an example uses Driver only operation, and their drivers don't have cameras or mirrors I'm pretty sure. They solely rely on the door interlock to warn them if someone is stuck in the doors.
Feel like they couldve had reversible seats if they wanted them though since the Shinkansen's seats are reversible and have tray tables and power outlets. They just spin around instead of flipping back and forth
Shinkansen seats are rotationally reversible, something that is a thing in NSW (regional trains) but not possible on regional seats cause it requires staff.
I’m looking forward to the D sets. My one concern is that they will continue to run 4 carriage trains in supposedly non peak times. Currently 4 carriage V sets are often packed around midday and the new trains are smaller. It will be amusing to see how the construction workers manage with the new trains as they like to stretch out across seats. I don’t really see the need for folding tables very few people would use them and I suspect they will be broken in short order.
Great video, couldn’t have said it better myself!
its kind of wild that trains with such blatant flaws and bad design choices like the cctv stuff even got as far as they did
and then they got upset when the union complained about the blatantly stupid design choices and threw about a bunch of name calling and what not
and then the project went overbudget because they had to fix their own mistakes, which they then complained about
some very smart people in charge here
The CCTV stuff is reasonable and is standard practice on railways around the world that are much safer than ours. The RTBU’s arguments (as always) relied heavily on emotional arguments rather than facts.
I'm still patiently waiting for the new regional trains! Canberra to Sydney is a very busy service and it would be great to at least get trains with power outlets! Wifi would be nice, but i can live without that for 4 hours.
Where is the dining car
Great video, very objective and thoughtfully explained. I agree with you regarding seats. I believe that NSW commuters are forfeited comfort to retain reversable seating. Moreover though I loved the V sets in teir day, the seats aren't nearly as comfortable and they are becoming less reliable.
The loss of the super comfortable, cosy, quiet and carpeted V sets is a tradgedy. The replacements lack that cosiness necessary for longer trips and reverse facing seats are never popular. Just watch which seats fill first on any train with half reverse facing seats.
V sets are life expired and needed replacing ages ago. Sure it’s not cost but it’s not your house, it’s a short distance train. Not the end of the world.
Not to say they don’t have problems, just those aren’t it.
Hate on me, disagree with me but I don’t get why everyone is fussing about reversible seating, I get it it’s annoying to sit backwards, but just think about all of the new features that are relevant in todays time And some of these trains operate in 10 cars so your bound to find a seat that is in the direction of your satisfaction, I actually can’t wait till they enter service!
I think it's just frustrating that for no good reason we are going backwards (literally) in the name of progress, and if we dare to ask why we are told 'suck it up it doesn't matter' like we are naughty children.
It will only be for long distance trains, the next generation of suburban trains should still have reversible seats.
I'm totally not impacted, but, I know people who get sick rolling backwards. When a train is full, it's simply not going to be possible to avoid the backwards seats. We're talking about daily trips, or twice-daily, when you look at most passengers. And for D-sets these are trips of 1, 1.5, 2 hours.
@@whophd Don't worry, because intercity trains are so sluggish many people are avoiding to catch these trains. From Newcastle to Sydney CBD driving is a LOT QUICKER via M1.
8:57 I know reversible seating is rare, thats what makes Sydney trains so good
I do think they'll be great. But the issues and delays with the one man issue, no reversing seats and other difficulties slightly tarnish what would otherwise be a purely positive opinion for me.
The information quality of your videos is excellent, you have a very level headed opinion on things too! Really well done
I remember when XPTs wrer released with backwards facing seats - still charged the same for the less comfortable backeard seating. that did not last long until they were refurbished due to customer complaints. These people talk about customer service but I wonder waht they mean by customer service - is it the service the customers give to the transport gurus. We have the ne sardine can trains with few seats and many standing and now they want us to pay the same fare for the inconvenience of travelling backwards.
How is it less comfortable sitting backwards. Maybe for the few who have motion sickness etc but the vast majority of people can cope.
@@thetrainguy4 - if you pay the same money you do not ecpect to "cope" WHAT ARE YOU A TRANSPORT NAZI - the peasants who catch the train should be grateful - You sound like a former NSW Transport minister who had never travelled by public (socialist) transport.
@@thetrainguy4 - read the comments. Fixed seating is terrible.
Woah there settle down. I pay for a trip on the metro most days and I don’t get a seat at all. You pay for the service, not for the guaranteed seat. If there’s one free, that’s a happy coincidence, if it’s backwards and you would prefer to sit forwards, tough.
Don’t call people Nazis.
@@thetrainguy4 - you must be politically connected - a supporter of Good time Gladys and Stupid McStupid Face. Such a devoted political disciple that you love being treated like cattle in the sardine can trains. If your want to ride in a sardine can then ride the toy train systems of London or Singapore. The UA-cam videos of visitors to Sydney love the character of our city and often comment on the big underground trains with reverseable seats.
I'm assuming they haven't brought back the old water dispensers of the V-set days ☹️
Little paper cups and a funny smell through the door. I remember.
Non-reversible seats on trains that don't reverse at the end of their trip are unforgivable. We've had them for a century & designing them isn’t hard. If they can't fix the alignments to allow for long stretches of 160km/h running to bypass Cowan Bank, Lapstone and Helensburgh curves entirely (extend suburban services for the local stations), and services remain 2-3 hours long, then no. Just no. Power belongs in the ceiling anyway, not the seats.
I think the non-reversible seats trope is totally overrated in NSW. People are currently putting up with TERRIBLE seats on the H sets for long trips for the reversible seat fetish. I would much rather a comfortable high-backed seat than reversible ones. I live in Germany now, none of the long-distance trains here have reversible seats even on long trips, 50% face the direction of travel 50% away. It's fine.
@kyletopfer7818 German trains are always late, but they're still faster than tottering up Cowan Bank or into Stanwell Park at 35km/h. You rarely have daily commutes that take 2 hours plus transfers in Germany.
@@PCLoadLetter German trains have running issues and poor on-time running for a few reasons as I understand it; firstly because since the mid 1990s the Government throttled back funding for improvements to the existing network so a lot of passing tracks were removed meaning express trains get stuck behind locals. Secondly some key stations, notably Frankfurt Stuttgart as well as München, are terminal stations running at or near capacity designed for far less train movements per day, and should have been replaced by through stations years ago as was planned for Frankfurt last decade and is currently under construction in Stuttgart. Thirdly deferred maintenance is a problem, and fourth sabotage for theft of copper wiring as well as general public interference in the rail corridors is a persistent issue.
As for your other points, I regularly sit on regional trains for 2-3 hours to get to different places, but there are plenty of ICE journeys that take over 2 hours and plenty of people make them regularly a few times a week. But this is an argument in favour of better more comfortable seats though! As said in the video reversible seats means no tables, seats not properly moulded for ergonomics, chargers would have to be overhead or on the wall, trains are heavier: I would much rather a comfortable high-backed seat than reversible ones. I live in Germany now, none of the long-distance trains here have reversible seats even on long trips, 50% face the direction of travel 50% away. It's fine. Anyone that is doing the majority of the journey will be able to find a forward-facing seat most of the time anyway if they want, you are pretending trains will be full from first stop to last every trip which is nonsense.
Yes, they could have been designed but that would have come at a cost including the higher cost of manufacture, reduced seating capacity, high maintenance costs and the overall cost of moving away from standard designs. The rest of the world does without them just fine.
@@BigBlueMan118I did some ICE trips last week and sat backwards. My doctor reported no adverse effects.
Who ever thought non reversible seats was a good idea is obviously not a regular traveller. It is a crap idea in the extreme. Thanks for the video…very informative.
Eh. The rest of the world does it.
Reversible seats are a blessing not irrelevant. International vistors remark on them and are amazed what a good idea they are. They do not preclude having charging points. Like many of the points you cite it is purely a matter of not too difficult design.
Increased potential speed is a plus but only if it is used, which it won't be. The problem 10 car sets have added to the costs and added to the platform problems with no increase in capacity.
That there are updates to technology on the new sets is a furphy when you admit considerable money was spent on refitting the older sets for suburban use. Same same. Could have updated the old to the new tech, something which should be allowed for in the original design, making easier maintenance and changes over time.
The increased service frequency is very welcome, especially on the busy and getting busier Wollongong line.
Money misspent on delays and design blunders should have gone towards finishing line electrification which will eliminate train changes, cut costs and pollution plus add to reliability. Trains running faster on straightened lines would in itself make existing stock service more people because they would not be taking as long to get from A to Z.
i been on bord the h set trains a few times when i was in sydeny back in september last year did a few trips a couple of times from central to gosford and back for a day trip not bad train the h set
What you failed to Mention was the Failure of the then LNP Government to meet with Unions and other stakeholders for their input. The LNP created a Huge mess and that should never be forgotten. We shall wait and see if they give us Lemons.
I've heard that the union bosses did agree to the plan initally, but changed their mind once they found out their members didn't like the idea.
And besides, the Government was clear from 2016 at least about how the trains would operate, unions had nothing to say back then
Unions make up 51% of votes in Labor party pre-selections. They are literally an arm of the ALP, this happened in an election year, how is that remotely the LNP's fault that the ALP wanted to win the election?
Lots of good points. I feel a sense of nostalgia for the V sets but you’re right … they don’t meet modern passenger standards. Your video provides some useful balance to the negativity that seems to dominate about the D sets.
Perhaps you’d consider making a video on the new NSW Regional Fleet at some point, which also receives a lot of negativity. 🤔
Oh I’ve already done that, unfortunately there’s much less to be positive about there…
@@thetrainguy4 Ah, good to know. Thanks!
Excellent video. The sooner the new trains are operational on the Blue Mountains line the better. The old trains are dangerous, as mentioned, as I almost suffered a fall from a carriage at Leura in similar circumstances to the blind man. The Luddites in the rail union ought to find another vocation. I have no trouble using metro, subway, regular or non-reversible seating.
The union wasn't arguing against these trains because of the platform gaps which btw will be the same with the new trains if not only slightly smaller.
The argument was the guard or driver wouldn't be able to see or hear you if you fell because they'd be stuck in the train relying on a poor cctv system.
Hey thats my photo of the new screens that i posted to reddit!! ( i don't care but its cool to see )
All of the image credits are in the description, thanks for watching and being a good sport!
The best looking double decker trains I've seen
No mate, reversible seats out rank tray tables and everything else for comfort and ease of journey. Regardless of international standing, it’s what makes Sydney and NSW trains unique for their passengers.
That's not being "unique", that's being inferior. No tray tables and plug sockets in a 3 hour journey is pretty annoying.
Also, the V set seats aren't separated, and are unable to recline. If that isn't inferior, idk what is.
@@Skyler_Park You can still have plug sockets in reversible seating. Tray tables are over rated and unfortunately would get vandalised. It wouldn’t surprise me if the power USB sockets would get vandalised as well. The less objects to touch in public transport the better.
Reclining has benefits yes but they only recline to a very small degree. One has to wonder if that’s even worth it for fixed seating.
@@jakez6851
That's a stupid excuse to have...
Just because there is a chance of them being vandalised doesn't mean not having them at all is the solution.
Those amenities might be nothing to most people, but there's always going to be someone who really needs it.
And vandalism is more of a problem with the people using the trains, not the trains themselves. You can't guarantee they would happen often too, so there's no reason to just make the ride less convenient for everyone just to prevent something that's very unlikely to happen most of the time.
@Skyler_Park There isn't just a chance tray tables would be vandalized. It's guaranteed. These trains run almost 24x7, and they're used by eshays and bogans. The eshays will jump on them for fun.
@@Skyler_Park it’s a valid excuse. It is a people problem yes I agree however, the amount of money the tax payer has to pay to keep fixing the trains from vandals is absurd. Etching on the glass, breaking the seat handles (which I have seen broken a few times). In the case of trays and usb chargers it will cost more to fix over and over again. (Don’t forget people won’t wipe down their trays after use). In public transport less is more. The less people to interact with equipment the better. (Being a people problem). Why do you think they removed reversible seats ? They are a pain to repair, just look at the H set trains.
The convenience is getting you from point A to point B via mass transit. No need for usb chargers when we have battery packs. Keep it simple. Hop on hop off. Accessibility for entry and exit, comfort and safety. It’s not supposed to be an electrical wonderland for people’s gadgets.
I think you have it wrong in regards to the forward and reverse facing seats. I for one cannot sit in the reverse direction and you just have to look people who avoid travelling in rear facing seats in the Tangara’s…the front facing seat always fill up first.
Your proposed 2-man system of operation is pretty much standard operating procedure here in the States and has been for DECADES. How can they really not think of that as an alternative in their debates?
the new sets are unfit for purpose based on the seating arrangement, fixed seats half backwards and for the regular commuter tables and charge ports are over kill and will be vandalised very quickly. 130 kph on the CCN is highly unlikely. when you have been a commuter for 40 years from Gosford nothing will ever better the V-Sets (except maybe the U boats)
The notion that no one or few people complain about fixed seats is laughable. It is a cost cutting measure by people who will not routinely use trains (or at least long distances). Other than that, it will be exciting once it’s in service.
I’m not saying people won’t complain, they will and they have. I’m saying it’s nowhere near as big a deal as people think.
@@thetrainguy4 If my options are between sitting backwards and having bad motion sickness or standing for a long trip (which is awful end of the day) then yeah I think it is a big deal, and I do believe a lot of people feel the same way
@anothercoginthemurdermachi7209 the rest of the world can manage siting backwards, so most people can here. If you genuinely have motion sickness you can ask for a forward facing seat, or else that’s kinda tough. Like if someone who couldn’t go up stairs couldn’t sit in the vestibule.
I’d rather a tray table and charger for 3 hours than facing forwards.
I assume some Oscar sets will still operate peak hour CCN services via Gordon after the whole NIF fleet is in service due to short platforms in the city
Fairly certain no CCN trains will use the north shore after either the 2024 or 2025 timetables.
@@thetrainguy4 I seen heaps of people board the peak hour CCN services via Gordon. I think its would be nuts to get rid of that service, unless if Gordon services do an cross platform interchange in hornsby or bewora to an CCN platform or frequency increased enough to jusify that for both CCN and gordon services.
A lot of them probably just go to suburban stations.
People going further north can change at Central- the intercity North Shore trains chew up way too much capacity for not much benefit over a stopping train.
They could just run the D sets as 8 cars and still do the CCN via gordon with them.
@@thetrainguy4 Which is faster (as an express, assuming minimal interference with locals), CCN or North Shore? North Shore looks more direct on a map, but both have a lot of curves.
I have caugt the train from Blacktown to Katoomba on a B-Set, and it was not great because, although the trains are great, frequencys suck, and we missed the train by 1 minute, and had to wait an hour at Blacktown
Yea the timing sucks but the D sets won't really improve the frequency on the BMT line.
Everything gets stuck between St Mary's and Penrith and will probably get worse with the airport.
I am sorry but there is a reason why the V set have enclosed vestibules mainly cold winter mornings/nights in the Blue Mountains. Likewise these trains were never built to support the numbers of what I have seen, passengers doing short hops between stations, they should be really be using the suburban fleet instead of the intercity fleet. In regard to reversible seats which are the most comfortable out of the entire fleet, why should we accept something that has been like it for many years or accepting a step down in my opinion. Many people don’t know this but the V sets were originally designed to have non reversible seating initially until the community actually raised the issue that they wanted reversible seating for long trips. The D sets have a lot to live up to in comparison with the v sets. Kind regards, somebody who’s father was actually apart of the team that built the V sets at Comeng.
I don't understand why these new trains were not built at Broadmeadow and Freemantle ?
Because neither of those plants actually build trains anymore. They bolt together parts made by foreign factories
As a Central Coast resident I can only add, can we just get the bloody things on the rails as soon as possible? Let's face it, the old V sets are slower, brakes jerk every time they move off, and the retired 'Boomers' with their bulky bags make moving around impossible. A 4 car train from Woy Woy at 9.17am is a nightmare, people blocking seats with feet, luggage, laptops, people sitting on steps. Keep the guard as a guard, let the driver just drive. Please.
I see a few of these sitting at Gosford everyday probably the same ones with the Depot not far away. These will be the oldest new trains in history, most of them must be 5 years old and yet to run a revenue service. I wonder how that goes with Warranty... Just another NSW Government stuff up.
most are younger than that, there are still some being delivered now.
The trains may well have all the positive points you note, but the abolition of reversible seating, is a very poor step. I don't care that no other network in the world has them. We've had them in Sydney (and then outer-suburban trains) for a very long time. They are popular and are comfortable.
I hate these seats. Not only are they as hard as rocks. Being over 6 foot your shoulders always hit the parts that fold in and you're in for an uncomfortable ride the whole way home.
Sorry, but no.
- The separate vestibule on the V-sets helps with insulation of noise, temperature, etc. The V-sets are very "cosy". These new sets are going to be far too "open". We're not architecting a house here.
- Same with the windows and lighting. The V-sets small, tinted windows are fantastic for keeping excess sunlight, noise and heat/cold out. I don't want or need giant panes of glass everywhere. These new D sets are really just a facelifted M/H/A/B set train which, honestly, are a poor design for long-distance services.
- The lighting on new trains is awful. V sets have dimmer, "warmer" lighting. This is FAR more pleasant. Travelling on the M/H/A/B sets at night is atrociously bad with their constant, blinding, blue-hue light. And I bet these new sets will be the same. No joke, I would go so far as to say this is actually a health hazard.
- Reversible seating is a non-negotiable for Sydney commuters. Fixed seating been tried and rejected before. Just don't argue with what passengers want, let them flip the seats. I'm sure a bit of clever engineering could allow for this as well as having power sockets for charging etc. Nobody gives a flying F if others around the world are simply "used to it". If they had it, they would want to keep it as well. And as for "well 50% are forward facing" .. So? That means 50% are rear facing. So unless if the trains are always 50% empty (which they won't be) then you have a problem.
The "cons" of the V-sets are trivial relative to the actual quality of the ride overall. There is something seriously wrong if a 50+ year newer train can't do what the V sets accomplished so well, especially when those things are so, so basic.
I agree with the vestibules, something that was going to be addressed by having passenger operated doors but the union threw a hissy fit etc.
I hold back judgement on comfort until I can actually ride them. If they are uncomfortable and loud and too sterile then I'll say that. If I think they're nice then I'll say that. We will see.
@@thetrainguy4 Fair enough. To me, these are, for all intents and purposes, just the existing rolling stock but with a 2+2 seating arrangement. I really don't have high hopes, and no doubt a lot of wasted money.
Not sure about sitting backwards for a 3 hour trip and unfortunate especially if you want to view the sea view heading south to Kiama.
Don’t see what difference it makes for looking out a window…
@thetrainguy4 the view is gorgeous heading south winding around the coastline and seeing the beautiful beaches. Heading north there are reminents of old rail bridge supports and you can spot the odd oyster farms on the Hawksbury River. I have family that get sick travelling backwards so if all the forward facing seats are taken, what happens then?!
@nathanlee3748 then you can explain that and hope for the best. What happens if all the seats are taken now, but you get sick if you stand up. The rest of the world has figured this out, it’s not that hard!
its been a while, and they still havnt realeased
No-one else whinges about the non reversible seats so why should we? Come on. Really? Who cares of Europe or Asia. We have reversable seats Central Coast/Newcastle so there would expect that same on the train replacements. I can see that these seats are NOT going to be comfortable for a 2.5 to 3 hours train ride. If you are going to be on re first service, bring a pillow to sit on. As far as usb charging ports are concerned, we do not need them. Read a book instead or carry a power bank.
While they may not whinge about it, visitors praise the fact that Sydney train seats are reversible and wish their trains had them. Also, many people get nauseous travelling backwards on trains. USB ports and wifi are unnecessary these days as we have better battery life in phones and plans with more data. Public wifi will be too slow.
XPTs manage to have tray tables and zero backwards seats.
Yeah but the crew have to switch them
At 1:35. That was what they claimed. Unfortunately a video surfaced of a train in test in South Korea at high speed with all the crew doors open.
5:03. The length is not important, the critical factor is carrying capacity.
5:30 This is where you start talking crap but I forgive you as you have no real world experience of knowledge of what either roll does.
6:44 This is where the non experience show its self. The guard on the train does not sit for 30 minutes doing noting. His task between stations is to monitor customer behaviour, monitor the train and driver behaviour and take action if any are not right. Your dismissive attitude could be applied to say a police officer when he is patrolling the streets or a firefighter waiting for a call to come in.
7:10 Please use trip view and calculate the number of train stops all trains in Sydney make each day, then multiply that by the number of days in a years then the number of years we have had railways in Sydney and then with that number calculate the ratio of incidents of a fall compared to the number of stops. Next find the number of cases where the train guard while watching the train out has observed an unsafe incident and acted to stop the train and so avoided a serious injury or death. I know in my time on trains I had that more times (me not the total network) that the total number of Burwood type incidents.
7:54 At it again. If only you would bother to get all the facts. Read the report. He was blind. Even if the staff did say do not alight from the first car, how can a blind man know he is in the first car and as he had a guide dog, ask why did it allow him to step out of the train, is its job not to guide him to not do that?
This guy should be writing for Trump.
1) on test in Korea. Has that been repeated here?
2) 10 car D sets almost definitely carry more people than 8Vs
3) the best way to monitor passenger behaviour is surely to be in the passenger saloon…? I am dismissive because most operators put a second crew member to much better use. I don’t doubt there are some importantly tasks guards do but they can certainly do more.
4) the UK has less fatalities per passenger than NSW (of course most come from suicides and level crossing misuse) and do not have guards hanging out of trains, or even looking out of a window. CCTV turns off after 5mph. The number of falls is minuscule here and overseas and the number of deaths resulting from falls after a train has started departing is zero.
5) any competent rail operator would have systems in place to prevent a door from being opened when not alongside a platform. You cannot defend this obvious safety issue of the V sets.
I support 2PO, but other models from around the world can deliver safer railways with models that don’t require guards to be locked away and hanging out of doors. Have you read the independent report? Because that conclusively found the D set proposed operating model (remembering that it did not analyse the actual equipment on the train like cameras etc, that’s a fair criticism) was not only safer than the Waratah model but also safer than every international model they analysed.
These are good points Warren. It means a new video needs to come out and take account of that, maybe deleting / hiding the old one if it's going to be misleading to leave it around.
But I do want some kind of video like this one. It carried a number of other points that the mainstream news / public narrative / social media chat doesn't talk about or just simply gets wrong all the time. Things that weren't challenged in this comment.
All up it's good really. Digging up the right information and if everyone just keeps going and doing this, we'll reach the right answers. It's SUCH a long way from what you'd learn on a 6pm news report or stupid newspaper article.
Great Video. Brace yourself for the flow of hate that will come from people who can't think critically or compromise on what the union told them. Don't stress there are some people you won't convince. You've explained the issue with the size of the trains in the mountains well, a lot of people don't seem to understand the asset upgrade that had occurred across the rest of the network over the past 20 years to run the OSCARs stopped at Springwood.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think these trains are perfect, in fact I'm worried about the comfort factor but there's a few things that were not very well explained with these trains. In the Driver Only Operation model, the passenger interaction with the doors was never explained and allowed naysayers to prosecute their argument well. The argument was that train drivers would be trying to see all the train doors in the dark at unattended platforms in the outer regions. However doors would only operate if passengers interacted with them and the screen would be divided up between the number of doors interacted with. Likely some stations this would be a large number of doors, at others this would be sometimes no doors. The doors would also close after a period of time themselves, similar to the trains operated in Melbourne (with this operations accepted by the same union).
I think a better option would have been the Vline model on the Vlocity, where the guard roams the train and is not in the cab, but stands on the platform with a remote and closes the doors. This means they are not stuck in place in a cab. I would also prefer to see the Guard and Driver in the same cab to ensure that there is no communication issue between them however this would not fit with the "Waratah Model" the union has requested.
I am not so familiar with the rail scene in Australia so please do correct me if I got anything wrong.
So these are suppose to be intercity trains… right? As in the new ones that will run up to 3 hours. Are there even… any sort of catering is gonna be onboard? Surely they won’t be this cruel to not add any sort of vending machine onboard- would they?? If there isn’t, is that typically a norm for the past few decades for these type of train and services?
trains in aussie that dont run overnight / longer than 5 hrs generally dont have catering, im from tassie and had never caught a long train for commuting, i wasnt used to this and although i thought there would be food, i have caught a 3 hour train in nsw and you dont need food for that timr
@@tasmaniantaswegian how were you not hungry at all? Did you bring your own food or ate earlier before you boarded?
@@ludwigtails no, we went from wynyard (sydney cbd) to blacktown (near the edge of the suburbs) on a 1 1/2 hr train and then anouther 1 1/2 hr train to katoomba (regional town) and although it was long, you dont actually notice cuz its not as long as it seems, especially whrn u arent a regular train personl as my home state doesnt have rail
@tasmanianmapping I remember when Tasmania had a wonderful train service. I caught the train from Devonport to Hobart in 1974 after arriving on the Ferry from Melbourne. The journey was beautiful, and the train was as good, if not better, than anything we had in NSW at the time.
@@aussiejohn5835 im not that old to have been on that, but im from launceston, have been on the trams at the tramway museum here, and it wouod be so much better if we had this transit. Currently we have metro buses that are so infrequent my suburb gets 3 buses a day and none on weekends, plus NO afternoon commuter service.
Ive seen these running across the Blue Mts Line ocassionly, Is that were they where hidden out of sight... Lol