Was Manfred Von Richthofen REALLY the best WW1 German Fighter Pilot?
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- Опубліковано 7 сер 2024
- Have you ever wondered if Werner Voss was the best German ace of WW1? I did.
That's why I took a deep dive into the aerial careers of Voss and Manfred Von Richthofen. I wanted to find out if, relatively, the young Rhinelander was a deadlier fighter pilot. I also wanted to find out which pilot was more effective for the war effort.
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Welcome to my channel where I share my love of history and aviation. I first fell in love with military aviation when reading Biggles books as a boy, then I studied history at university. I like finding interesting stories and sharing them with others.
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⏱️ Timestamp:
0:00 Voss vs Von Richthofen
2:25 Was Voss deadlier than Von Richthofen?
7:00 The importance of good leadership
10:44 Who was the better fighter pilot?
15:51 Bitter rivals or fast friends?
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In his book _”The Ace Factor”,_ Mike Spick postulated that there were plenty of successful pilots who were average fliers and ordinary shots but became aces because they had one thing everyone else around them lacked: situational awareness. Richthofen has long been described as not a natural flier but a natural hunter and he stalked his prey patiently, especially in the early days. Voss seems to have been a tremendous natural pilot with a great talent for deflection shooting but seems to have lacked discipline.
Agree with you. The sum of their differences would’ve made a murderous pilot!
Voss may have had greater piloting skills and may have been superior in a one vs one situation but I think Richthofen's qualities lay more in his leadership abilities. He was able to motivate and teach his men, he must have had exceptional eyesight usually discovering the enemy sooner than the pilots he led, and he must have had exceptional situational awareness as reported by several of his former men.
He was also able to file reports and doctrines that had some impact. All of this made him a much more valuable and influential officer than Voss could have been.
@@maxx-as4947 Well, that seemed to depend on what day it was. It seems Richthofen was pretty good some days and not so good on others. Being really focussed on his quarry meant that sometimes he was a bit careless which, from memory, was how he was wounded. He was certainly a better leader than Voss though. They were both rampant individualists but in different ways.
Voss must have had pretty exceptional situational awareness though to last 10 minutes against that kind of opposition. Not only were they all aces but McCudden was one of the finest flight leaders of the war. Voss spent ten minutes apparently unharmed while putting bullets into all of them.
This is not to downplay Richthofen, nor to lionise Voss. They were both exceptional in their own ways. Ironically, it probably wasn’t lack of situational awareness that cost Richthofen his life and getting into a fight with opposition like what Voss faced probably shows less than ideal situational awareness. Pierre Clostermann, when talking about the Luftwaffe _Experten_ in WWII, said they were both prudent and sure of themselves. A prudent pilot doesn’t take on six at once.
Good observation on Richthofen, his most successful flying was when he chose and stalked his prey as a hunter, reminds me of the line from Top Gun about IceMan waiting for you to make a mistake and then taking you.
In fact, he was noticed to abandon his usual flying technique on his last mission leading to his death, most likely from ground fire, imho.
Yeah from what I have read Richthofen was a below average pilot , but an exceptional marksman.
Voss’s engagement with 56 squadron was even more impressive than you realize.
He and a wingman flying an Albatros attacked a pair of SE-5's from 60 Sq, IIRC. Both of those were being damaged by Voss when spotted by a 56 Squadron flight of 6 pilots, all aces at the time, lead by Capt. James McCudden.
McCudden had Rhys-Davids stay high with one other pilot (my apologies, I am not where I can review my data to verify his name) and engaged with the rest of the flight. On the first pass the Albatros was dispatched, and McCudden tried to switch his targeting to Voss. That is when he discovered the Fokker could succeed in a flat rudder turn. Airplanes prior to the thick airfoiled Dr.1 would generally stall (largely due to the wing undercamber), or if under load, might snap roll. The Dr.1 moved sideways, effectively using the fuselage as an airfoil and supported by a better airfoil.
For a short time, Voss was 1-v-6 with 2 (neither his) in reserve. The first 2 aircraft that had been attacked by Voss quickly exited the fight. One was badly damaged, one smoking. A second Albatros in the area joined in, so Rhys-Davids and his wingman dove in and shot him down, probably unseen by the GAS pilot. The then joined the fray. Turning and firing as able, Voss damaged all of these aircraft eventually.
Voss had to fly level momentarily as he and McCudden passed wing-to-wing, allowing Rhys-Davids to put guns on. When he fired, the engine slowed, then the maneuvering decreased. Our young captain took that chance to pepper the Fokker again, and the Dr.1 headed toward the ground. While it shattered when it hit the ground, there was no explosion or fire afterward.
A “rest of the story” moment. First, at one point Voss was at least 100’ above the 56th flight, and could have departed to the East, leaving the 56th pilot's to head back towards their lines flying into the prevailing winds. but it appears that Voss’s fangs were hanging out too far, and he dove back into the fight!
At the time that Rhys-Davids got his shots off, Voss had been in the air over 90 minutes, and best records available show he impacted the ground 93 minutes after take-off. This means that 1 of 3 things could have happened. When Rhys-Davids fired, he may have hit the engine causing it to lose power, he might of hit Voss causing him to let go of the throttle on the stick. But another possibility is that the top time or shortly after, the DR 1 had used up all its fuel and lost power! This is not to take anything away from the 56th and Rhys-Davids.
I only point this out to remind those of us that have flown, or those that someday might, Boelke’s Dicta still apply.
Excellent summary.
Must of been a hell of a feeling sliding the aircraft.
"The escape when you can". Dicta
Oh damn, RFC 60, Billy Bishop’s squadron.
Wonder what he was up to on that day?
To me, Richthofen and Voss were both great pilots and extraordinary people, just as all the rest of the great aces of the First World War were. They both have rightly earned and deserve their place in the pages of history.
Ernst Udet was the better German Ace of WW1 scoring 62 confirmed kills plus he did what Werner Voss and Manfred Von Richthofen couldn't do and that was to survive the war. The only thing that kill Ernst Udet in the end was those damn Nazis forcing him to commit suicide.
Well said mate Udet was the man - NO Doubt AT All .
Udet Underrated ,One of the Best !
They drove him to commit suicide they didn't force him.
I love the way you show Voss' triplane as "light blue" with olive drab over painting. I believe this is the way the first two triplanes were painted. The later versions were painted olive drab over natural fabric color with the under side of wing and fuselage painted with the light blu... but the first two were painted differently. Also, I love analysis. I think Voss was a hot head, a heck of a pilot, but a hot head. On the other hand I believe MVR was a strict disciplinarian and a true leader and totally devoted to the "cause". I think his devotion to his men resulted in his death. There's no way he should have been flying with his injury...he felt it was his duty to stay with his men.
This was so incredible, thank you for the deep dive - such a great perspective 👏
Here's an unmentioned factoid: When Voss scored his first 2 victories on 27 November 1916, the Red Baron already had 11. At the time Voss was killed, Richthofen had 61 victories. So, he scored 50 victories during the same span of time Voss took for 48. Then again, Voss spent Bloody April on home leave, while Richthofen racked up 21 victories that month.
That's an interesting fact I didn't pick up on (and thanks for the correction: I said 10 instead of 11).
@@CalibanRising And why did Voss have to take leave during Bloody April? Because regulations mandated a month's leave upon scoring the 20th victory/being awarded the Pour le Merite. An incentive package, so to speak.
@@georgej.dorner3262 Thanks for that info, makes a lot of sense now!
I would also add that the number of aircraft in the air from the start of their career to the end was staedily increasing. The 'lone wolf' approach of people like Ball and Voss was a 'dying art' (pardon the pun). This means that M.V.R.'s approach was viable throughout the war, Voss's wasn't. If you ask me which WW1 Ace I would least want to face? Rene Fonck. Cold, calculating and a lethal shot.
I grew up dreaming about fighting airplanes. The first war really attracted me, but one day I realized that guys like Voss and Von Richtoven were creatures of the marketing department of the German army. Every day tens of thousands of young men were dying in the mud. More were dying in hospitals from disease. They weren't honored merely for thier exploits killing men on the otherside of no man's land. If they were honored at all it was for something that advanced their sides position or something that saved the lives of their trench mates.
As a Dane I have to mention, that both the Dutch and the Germans name the letter: V as "fau"!
So Voss is named "Foss", as also Manfred "Fon" Richthofen. 😀 And I think that most agree that Verner Voss was the best pilot during WW1. Canadian, Billy Bishop came very close to pass Richthofens number of shot down planes, but was then taken out of the war, as a live Hero was considered preferable to a possibly dead one!
It sounds by only flying when he /wasn't/ outnumbered von Richthofen was obeying Sun Tsu's Art of War's dictum.. 'Never enter into a battle you haven't already won.' As for keeping to the battle plan, there's a reason for the saying 'No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy.'
I like this video. I don't normally watch videos on WWI air combat but your speculative approach and use of statistics, tactics, flying and combat styles with a comparison between two aces added a lot more interesting granularity than a straight history and total tally approach would do.
Thanks David, that means a lot mate!
I think Voss (pronounced "Foss", by the way) was the better pilot, and probably the better dogfighter. Richthofen on the other side was a better tactician, picking his opportunities and utilizing the advantages of having a wingman or even the entire Staffel with him in the air. Fact of the matter remains though, neither one of them survived the conflict. It would be interesting with an analysis of either one of them versus the highest scoring surviving German Ace, Ernst Udet. 62 confirmed victories and still prudent (or lucky) enough to survive the carnage.
Wenn im zweifel, immer hart ruder und vollgas! - E Udet
(When in doubt, always apply full rudder and max power!.)
Thanks for the analysis and pronunciation correction, those Vs are tricky in German!
Wow thank you so much for this video! I have often wondered how Voss’s tally would have looked had he survived as long as Richthofen
I love these kinds of comparisons- Well done!!
Thanks for watching.
Great video...good job.
It shows how you should be equally scared if you found either of them on your "6".
If this were 1917...I'm thinking Voss's reputation/recognition was getting around, but MVR's was known to all.
It's always interesting to review the last-flight details of these famous aces, (from any of the world wars).
They typically meet their end by breaking one of their well known rules.
With Voss...what's that German saying their pilot used then..."Too many wolves, spell death to the rabbit"?
Thanks Kent, I like how you put that.
Some rabbit. He put bullet holes in them all. It was a matter of chance that none found flesh.
@@georgej.dorner3262 Yeah, and many of their planes were write-off's, and some of the pilots lost their nerve from the near death experience, effectively casualties.
And within months, most of those that stayed in combat after the Voss fight were dead, perhaps influenced one way or another.
Rhys-Davis reaped what he sowed, spared by Kurt Wolff in an earlier dogfight, returned the favor by hosing an effectively defenseless Voss flying dead straight.
Not saying he didn't do his duty, and were it in WW2 or today, nobody would have complained.
These guys were ,Old Men at 22 years of Age! Hard to even Imagine !
Who was the best? It depended upon who was having the best day, and who was luckiest, as there were plenty off very good fighter pilots. The master of them all, of course, was Boelcke, who literally wrote the book on aircraft combat tactics. Likely also a master of situational awareness, he was never shot down, instead dying from being in an air to air collision with one of his fellow pilots, one of his own friends aircraft. Had he survived, perhaps he would have perfected more maneuvers to increase his likelihood of surviving the war. His legacy, is that the tactics he developed over a century ago, have been advanced into the instructions to today's fighter pilots.
You hit it right on the nose, Boelcke wrote the book and Richthoven did his best to carry it out. . .
Very nice video. Bravo sehr gut!
I think the key difference is that Richthofen was a strategist. Like everyone else has said, Richthofen was a "Hunter." Hunting requires a keen eye and a cool but quick hand, but it also requires patience and planning. Richthofen may have been a good pilot, but he excelled at these last two things. It's what made him dangerous. You didn't make him fight on your terms, you fought on his terms. this is where voss loses it in my opinion. In his last fight he more or less charged in on the enemy's terms and tried to change the situation, and by doing so he got himself killed. The same could be said for Richthofen's last flight as well.
A good conclusion, thanks
I think 💭 Manfred was intent on having his score untouchable! He was by his own account not a natural pilot, he had exceptional gunnery skills, also he didn’t take unnecessary risks! Voss on the other hand had a Devil May care attitude, sadly this kind of disregard made it speed up his demise!! He would’ve surpassed Manfred’s score had he survived!! Great losses on Both accords! Thanks great content!!
Thanks for watching Ricardo!
Richthofen is said to have more kills, but a lot wasn't confirmed, some say close to 100
The best one was René Fonck, but because the french system of victory homologation was much more selective, he didn't count as much as she should, although he blasted Von Richthoffen in terms of real victories.
I would like to know more about this
@@SH-yx1es the french validation system was based on two testimonies from two different people not being in the same squadron as the pilot and only if the plane was shot down over allied territory.
This was mostly not the case at the end of the war because the combats occurred mostly over German territory , Alsace or Lorraine which at that time were parts of the German empire.
This explains also why the Germans like Von Richthoffen had a better rate of homologation per kill because they could easily find the remains of the planes that were shot down.
And he was better at surviving the war :P
Apparently Fonck was extremely vain and as hyper focused on his official score as MVR and Voss. He wasn't liked by his fellow pilots and not much concerned with social skills.
Fonck was a Hell of a fighter pilot (I personally think he was the best). Stalking his foes from higher altitudes, he studiously avoided dog fights, clinically dispatching his victims with incredible precision. Unfortunately for him, his aloof arrogance probably paid a part in his outstanding achievements not getting the recognition they deserved. Few of his own countrymen liked him, instead idolising his tragic compatriot Georges Guynemer, instead...
Very good research about those two Pilots. I like your statistical approach and it is very interesting. Wouldnt it be interesting to reflect on Boelke and Immelmann if they had survived till 21st of April 1918? What about Willi Gabriel and his fate, I mean, if he would have a little bit more obedient what could have become of him? It is all theoretical, we know the outcome :)
Thank you for enlightening me!
Thanks for watching mate and thanks for the suggestions.
Looking at Richtofen's score I've noticed that in the last 'half' of his career his scoring slowed considerably. Admittedly he did have a final flurry with 11 in March and another 6 in April 1918 but from July 17 to February 1918 he only managed 6 victories. In July he was shot down and badly wounded in the head and I have always wondered if he was no longer at his best because of the wound.
That said I hate to think (from an allied perspective) what would have happened if either MVR of WV managed to live long enough to get in the cockpit of a DVII - given what Udet managed to achieve in one (38 victories in 4 months with Jasta 4).
That is a frightening thought. Voss with altitude and the sun… and a D.VII!
Very interesting thought.
@@CalibanRising I know. But I still think Voss is unlikely to have survived the war unless he was pulled from combat flying. his grand finale - while impressive - was a grim reinforcement of the fact that the day of the Lone Hunter was definitely over. As for Richtofen I subscribe to the belief that he was worn out and became careless, just like so many others. Mannock and McCudden come to mind as both were killed doing something that they knew they should never have done - Mannock going down after an enemy to low level where Archie got him and McCudden trying to turn around and retun to the airfield with a dead engine and stalling (so to speak) instead of continuing on using forward momentum to make a forced landing. In both cases they should have known better, just as Richtofen should have known better than become fixated on a target but like I said, he was probably worn out and needed a good long rest.
Still Kudos for Wilfred May for keeping out of MVR's guns long enough for something to happen. Given a couple of his exploits postwar in civilian aviation he must have been a natural flier.
@@richardarcher7177 Yeah even Voss had had enough, completely worn out on the day he died.
They were getting surrounded and he literally left his squadron behind to fight for their lives and sped ahead to his doom, he couldnt possibly have been in his right mind IMO.
That was interesting.
Rise of flight posted a video of Voss last fight which is worth watching.
Nice video, what flight simulator are you using?
This was cool to watch. I want to know how many planes did they each operate and then damage or needed replacing? This question can go towards their skills and Airmanship. A good operator always looks after his machine
If memory serves MVR flew 15 different aircraft as a fighter pilot (more including his bomber days). Voss, I don't know off hand.
They both were excellent.
There is one stark conclusion. Wars kill the cream of the crop of humanity.
I would value command leadership over the hot stick. The idea is to win as a group. Not individual Glory.
How about a video on Douglas Bader and other pilots who flew with Disability's and how they were never held back by there Disability's!
Great suggestion Martin!
Excellent eyesight is the number 1 factor for a good fighter pilot. Everything else can be taught.
Good video! I think that Von Richthofen was more like Erich Hartmann, whereas Voss was more like Hans-Joaquim Marseilles.
Good point!
I remember reading "Reach for the Sky" when Douglas Bader talking about trying to reteach WW II pilots the flying methods he had learnt from pilots who had learnt how to fly in world war I, mainly the flying in circuses that MFR had been so famous for!
Really, boom and zoom was king. I feel Bader can sometimes be taken with a grain of salt with his support for the "big wing" fiasco with it's inferior kill loss ratios.
Bader was a first class ASS and prime candidate for Monty Python's Upper Class Twit of the Year.
Reach For The Sky was self serving justification full of faked figures in praise of " big Wing".
Let's not even mention sycophantic writing from Paul Brickhill
From what I've read over the years, I'd put Voss as the best. His handling and control of the aircraft was just stunning.
I never thought about this comparison but I’d have to say Voss was probably a better fighter pilot. The way he maneuvered the new Fokker DRI in his final battle was amazing.
Richtofen was, at that time, when aviation was at it's infancy and nobody could hv dreamed of what the next 1 year would be like - There was a reason Werner Voss and Richtofen were as close as they were ... only they understood each other as the new realm of air combat was beginning
MVR was also shot down in 1917 spending some time recuperating, i.e. lost flying time.
I always felt Voss was the more talented pilot. However, I feel based upon my research that Von R was more cautious. I read the 2 volume set Roy Brown by Alan Bennet which was very enlightening about how Von R operated.
What about the nature of their victories did mvr no specialise in. Taking down slower recon planes
Youth equals I will live forever Things seen and done in combat (what would your body do to survive) you really will not know till each individual faces it My body as I lay on my bedroom floor from a heart attack went into a hissy fit, I often wonder now as a wannabe fighter pilot of WW1 would I scream with nightmares in my bed and still have the courage the next morn to fly
There’s no doubt in my mind that, had he survived, Voss would’ve been the top ace of the war. One can only imagine what he would’ve pulled off in the Fokker D.VII. I also think that Richthofen would’ve retired from combat once he had scored his 100th kill, despite what he wrote about doing his duty like every other soldier in his diary.
Even so, Voss’ biggest weakness was his tendency to be a loner and lack of discipline compared to MVR, mainly due to his age.
Also, other pilots who scored impressive kill rates were McCudden, “Taffy” Jones, William Claxton & Irish ace McElroy (protege of Mannock). I think they’d be worth covering.
Good suggestions. Thanks
@@CalibanRising Yeah, I’ve noticed that quite a few British and Commonwealth aces in 1918 racked up quite a score, yet they’re not as well-known as they should be. I know it’s partly to do with the RFC, RNAS and RAF had different victory confirmation rules, but still.
@@RogueAce93 "yet they’re not as well-known as they should be" you mean like Philp Fullard who shot down 42 aircraft in under six months before a broken leg put an end to his active service.
@@petefl1818 Yeah, him too. I was just naming other aces who racked up high scores like Fullard (who got all his victories in Nieuports, no less).
I remember being 19 years old and looking at the famous picture of Voss standing by his Tri-plane. Thinking. He was only a year older than me and gave it his all. So sad, how war takes life away. In my opinion, I think he was a better pilot then Richthofen.
However, when you're that young you think you can take on the whole world.
He overplayed his hand in that fight that cost him his life. Where as Richthofen was more tatical. He always thought two steps ahead, and he always would run if he thought he couldn't win. I believe he got this trait from his love of hunting.
That's just my opinion, but I could be dead wrong.
How about the Australian ace Robert Lee, of the RNAS (and later the RAF). 47 victories between November 1916 and May 1918, but he was absent from combat duties for approximately 8 months from late 2017 to April 2018. In his first 8 months he had 38 kills, 34 of them between April and the end of July in Sopwith triplanes (24 - the most of any pilot in that type) and 10 in just over two weeks in Sopwith Camels after his squadron converted to them in mid July 1917. By my quick guesstimate he must have only been available for combat duties in fighter planes (Sopwith Pups, Trips and Camels) approximately 320 days (excluding any short periods of leave and non flying days). So perhaps a candidate to check against Voss’s record. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Little
I think it depends how you define best; most kills over a career? Most at once? Highest ratio of enemy to the pilot? IIRC watching your video yesterday on the Red Baron, where you said he wasn't always in red or in a triplane, I think you also said he was a pupil of von Boelcke? I might be wrong on that. Wouldn't that make von Boelcke better than him?
You may be right. Boelcke might have a better "daily" average, have to look into that.
I will just throw this out there: William "Billy" Barker, VC, 50 victories (12th ranking among all WWI aces), was the best overall combat pilot of WWI (flying skill, gunnery, tactics, bravery, tenacity, etc). Yes, I'm biased, as Barker was a Canadian. Oh and while I'm here, FOUR of the top 12 WWI aces were Canadian: William "Billy" Bishop (72); Raymond Collishaw (60); Donald MacLaren (54); Billy Barker (50).
To put this in perspective: the other countries represented were Germany (3), France (2), UK (2), South Africa (1).
The British Empire, therefore, took SEVEN of the top 12 places.
I wonder what made Canadians so prolific? I believe that Canadian units were also generally used as shock troops right into the Second World War: Vimy, Dieppe, D-day. Must be something in the water?
@@CalibanRising LOL, Well, actually, as a Canadian, I think I can say that the whole "shock troops" thing has been greatly overstated. Sure, Canadians took Vimy after both the French and the British had failed, but they had outstanding leadership, who drilled their troops and planned meticulously for that one particular operation. There is perhaps something to the "Canadian prowess" thing, however, for WWI, but not at all, I would say, for WWII. Will comment further on this a little later.....
Re: "Canadian prowess" in WWI, there is, in fact, SOMETHING to this, though again, it does tend to be overstated. There were a number of factors as I (NOT a historian of either world war) see them: 1) Can soldiers were just noticeably bigger, on average, than their allied and German counterparts, probably because Can soldiers were overwhelmingly rural farmboys who had grown up in clean air and with plenty of food; 2) as farmboys, they also had grown up with guns, and so were comfortable with them, even before army training and tended to be naturally good shots from lots of practice from a young age; 3) the successful Canadian plugging of the gap and holding of the line at Ypres early in the war (1915) while subjected to the first gas attack, after French colonial troops had fled the field (hence the gap) added to their confidence and renown; 4) rhe apocryphal story of a German atocity in the person of the "Crucified Canadian" enraged Canadian soldiers and put them in vengeance mode for much of the rest of the war, leading to a great number of documented acts of ruthlessness and making them fearful to the Germans; 5) the aforementioned taking of Vimy Ridge in April 1917 following French and British failures but after (perhaps) unprecedentedly meticulous preparation led by their brilliant commanders Julian Byng and Arthur Currie. I think that these were the 5 main factors that made "Canadian prowess" not entirely an empty boast in WWI, though again, it HAS been overstated. Maybe I will comment on WWII later....m
@@britishamerican4321 Excellent points. During WWII, my father's Sherman tank in "B" Squadron of the 8th N.B.Hussars was named "Byng" after Julian Byng. I think you and Caliban Rising would enjoy reading my historical WWII novels "Fighters, Bombers, Tanks, Wolves: Gitchigumi" and "Shokuzai (Atonement)". Which I shamelessly promote as being available at Amazon and fine bookshops world wide.
Now I feel curious about Red Baron vs Black Devil (Hartmann). Had Baron born it in 1920s, how he will become in ww2??
That would be an interesting study!
MVR I'm My opinion, was the gentleman flyer, the Knight of the sky where Voss was a reckless kid. Equally useful and for that matter, within a short period of time, equally dead.
As a Yank I'd be remised in not mentioning Fast Eddie. Who was a little bit Knight of the sky and a little bit reckless kid.
All that being said, the early pilots were in many ways not much different than pilots who serve now, hotshot adrenaline junkies. The difference is they were making it up as they went along. Now days it's doctrinal.
I should look into Eddie, maybe "just" 26 victories but he accumulated them fairly quickly. Thanks for the suggestion.
@@CalibanRising just doing my part for the cause! Thank you for what you do. You are always informative and thought provoking.
Try using your formulas to see what Canadian ace Billy Bishop who had over 70 victories would have tallied. Cheers.
A good suggestion!
G'day,
From
"Goshawk Squadron"
by
Derek Robinson.
Whereinat a character named Major Wooley says, or words to the effect, while his Pilots are standing in Mud, in the Rain, practising shooting with Lewis Guns at the Butts ; when the weather was too foul for flying.
"The Art of being a successful Fighter Pilot lies in sneaking up behind an unsuspecting Stranger, and shooting him in the back while he's picking his Nose... ; then running away before his mates notice, and come looking to get even.
"What's wrong with these Targets then ?
"The Heart you see here, is on the Right-hand side of the Centreline, and the Heart is only on your Enemy's Right-hand side when you are facing him - you dribbling bloody Infants...; and you are NOT going to be facing your Enemy..., because you will be coming at him from behind...!
"So..., take down these Targets and put up new ones, with the Heart on the Left hand side - the way it is when you're shooting someone in the BACK.
"Henceforth, the following words are banned from being used within this Squadron -
'Honourable', 'Fair-Play', 'Decency', 'Chivalry', 'Gentleman', and 'Luck'...; those are all foul, horrible, disgusting, and terrible words - words which will get you killed if you ever start believing in their meanings - so I will not tolerate their use within my Squadron... !"
So, from a moral and ethical Viewpoint...; who WANTS to become a successful (Suck Cess Fool...?) Fighter-Pilot - and why do they want to shoot Strangers in the back, for a living ?
Least we Forget
That
All
War is
Always
All
BULLSHIT....
Because 20 years after the shooting stopped, Douglas Bader and Adolf Galland were both working as Technical Advisors on the making of the Movie "The Battle Of Britain"...; and in 2012 the USAAF SAC B-52 Crew Veterans met up with the Vienamese Army SAM-Site Crews and MiG- Pilots, at the Hanoi War Memorial, for a Dinner-Dance - 40 years after Nixon's Xmas Bombing Campaign...
In 25 years, the ENTIRE War in Ukraine will have revealed itself to likewise be nothing but a Crock of Bullshit marinated in Blood and Misery, heated over a flame of burning Patriotism and Jingoism and Propaganda, and unthinking unblinking unquestioning Obedience - and an ambition to please one's Elders...
So...,
Tally Ho...! (?).
Just(ifiably ?) sayin',
Have a good one...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
Did the winner been contacted?
announcing today!
As a pilot he lived the longest despite more combat hours, i.e, he was their top man.
Voss was a natural, but they put in too much of the Maverick and none of the quit in him, SE5's ahead, Camel's below and Spad's above, and for some reason he went ahead of his squadron which got tangled up in a dogfight, they couldn't reach him, end result speaks for itself.
He couldn't have climbed out of it even if he tried.
Voss was arguably more like the French ace Georges Guynemer - a daredevil. While Ritchofen probably was more like top scoring allied ace René Fonck - cold and calculating. Being a daredevil will almost certainly get you killed in a prolonged war - being cold andcalculating give you a much better chance of surviving - although the Red Baron eventually ran outta luck. Ace of aces, Erich Hartmann, also belongs in the second category - he never engaged in dogfighting unless forced to, and would rather disengange than to take on vastly superior odds.
But luck is underrated. Just to survive taking off and landing with a WW1/WW2 fighter hundreds, even thousands of times requires luck.
Some of the WW1 fighters could be temperamental on take-off and landing, especially the DR.1 and the camel, but the WW2 ones were plenty stable and docile.
Besides, ultimately they were warplanes, everybody understood them to be tricky and have their vices.
hmm best is not a good word to describe pilots we can never know how was best just who was most sucessfull
i would like to well ad ernst udet to the list he i think deserves bonus points for "surviving"
Voss VS Richthofen was a contest between aerobatics and strategy. And as the war progressed, the later was time and time again proved to be more effective (en masse during the beginning of WW2, when Regia Aeronautica - Italians - taught their pilots to engage in aerobatics and outmaneuver their enemy, whereas RAF taught their pilots to fight in formations, cover each other, and run away if victory wasnt possible, and RAF proved to be MUCH more effective).
This is proves NOTHING. What has happened has happened, and this entertaining video does not change that. Manfred was the best!
Its similar to the case of Hans Joachim Marseille & Erich Hartmann, while Hartman was the greatest highest-scoring ace in history Marseille was far more skilled, in terms of combat and leadership,
However Voss's was a direct hands-on approach while Manfred favored organized fighting, and while Voxx did indeed fight the greatest fights of WW I, his skills are overshadowed by von Richthofen, tally and command, granted they are also in question based around stories,
I think to remember that Canadian, Billy Bishop came very close to Richthofens total number, but then was taken out. Better a live hero, than a dead one! And the greatest of them all, Eric Hartmann also survived!
Billy Bishop survived WW1. As to his 'kills', there isnt any German records that corroborate any of them, according to some WW1 aviation historians. Sure, records have been lost, etc etc, and the British 'kill' system included aircraft 'driven down' and not seen to actually crash, so personally I think he did have some legitimate kills according to British policy.
Same with Rene Fonck. I own all the volumes in 'The WW1 French Aces Encyclopedia' by David Méchin (a Frenchman). He states near the end of Fonck's biography that WW1 aviation historians can only find 27 of Fonck's claims that match German losses, out of his accepted total of 75. Still a very good score, and maybe not including aircraft that were shot to pieces yet somehow still made it back. But nowhere near 75, like Bishops, nowhere near 72.
@@sopwithsnoopy8779 William Barker was probably better than Bishop as Canadian Aces go (did not even start flying until 1917). Bishop as much said that when they were business partners. Then there is Raymond Collishaw of the "Black Flight" that most Canadians have never heard of let alone outside of Canada.
@peter white Barker should be much more well known in Canada. Outside of Dauphin Manitoba and to a lesser degree, Toronto almost nobody has heard of Will Barker. It's too bad that his most well known battle went on to ruin his post war life. And almost nobody knows the name Collishaw.
By the numbers? By the numbers, the hottest German ace was Lothar von Richthofen. 77 days flying combat. 40 kills. Kills/day = 0.52. But he was shot down three times and spent more days in hospital than flying.
Haha! Can't forget the younger brother. Good candidate.
Good to see you acknowledging the importance of the reconissance crews in the overall picture of the war in the air. It has always amused me that an unknown crew in an RE 8 could be responsible for the destruction of more of the enemy in a 20 minute line shoot than some ace pilot in a gaudily coloured triplane did in his entire career. As an aside, using British terminology of the time a fighter or fighting machine was a two seat aircraft, such as the Bristol Fighter, whereas a single seater was a Scout, originally itself an unarmed reconnaissance machine.
Well put. Those crews were never as glamourous as the scout pilots I suppose, so didn't get the media coverage.
Voss strikes me as someone who hated administration / paperwork, and thought 'I'm a fighter pilot! My job is flying not writing reports'. He also obeyed the Peter Principle, that being everyone rises to the level of their own incompetence. As a pilot therefore he was superb, but promoted to a leader as well as a pilot, not so much.
I think this is a good way of saying it.
Why everyone forgot about Rene Fonck?
No, although MvR was an above average pilot, he scored most of his victories due to patient stalking and hunting his prey, coupled with exceptionally accurate gunfire. Voss was (in my opinion) the most gifted combat pilot of WW1 (I think Harry Hawker might have been a better pilot but was not involved in combat). Voss was incredibly talented, and unbelievably brave. The finest fighter of WW1 without a doubt. Oswald Boelcke should be involved in that discussion too. He was the father of aerial combat, and his Dicta became the formula to save the lives of many fighter pilots, and also meant the demise of many.
Voss enters the Mess… *_Yo MVR… 1v1 me bro!_*
Voss is the lonely knight, von Richthofen the cavalry general.
Comparison between Richthofen and Voss' claims against fighters; Richthofen claimed more obsolete pushers in 1916-17, and thereafter mostly camels in 1918 who were bounced while strafing or bombing ground targets, not in dogfights.
With respect, does it really matter, especially in view of their virtually identical tallies?
Vos was a natural flier, MvR more a skilled hunter, but less skilled in the air. Voss' last battle is a study in flying tactics, his death an inevitable accident caused by disregard for safety in the pursuit of his "game".
8:41 sec in the video would’ve made a beautiful color shot 🌈
Voss is the boss!
Voss was a fighter, MVR was an assassin.
Voss could out manoeuvre, evade and schtimie his enemy while MVR could out shoot, out stalk and out fox his.
While Voss prefered an open brawl, MVR frequently 360 no scoped his...
Ironically, on the day he was killed, von Richthofen violated his own rules. With probable target fixation he chased after one plane by himself and flew over enemy territory in the process, to fall victim to either ground fire or fire from the plane chasing him.
Voss didn't have a Dr1 he flew one of four F1 prototypes, Richthofen got one Voss got one one was sent to Austria for evaluation and one was retained by the factory
Thanks, I think I mentioned that very briefly but obviously should have made it clearer throughout the video. Great feedback.
@@CalibanRising
The Fokker triplane was originally designed without the outer wing struts and the struts were added to instill confidence
The F.I prototypes were painted with blue dope instead of the green dope used on the production Dr.I
One was retained by the factory
One was sent to Austria for evaluation
One was given to Richthofen, who called it his "blue plane" and later passed it on to his friend Kurt Wolff who died while flying it
And Voss received one, if you look carefully at the photos of Voss's F.I you'll notice the tailplane has curved edges instead of the triangular tailplane of the Dr.I
This tailplane feature could've been unique to Voss's F.I, I can't say for sure, but there were difference among the prototypes
MVR had his Flying Circus, while Voss worked alone. In these days before gun cameras, Werner Voss once landed between lines and picked up the Observer’s machine gun from the plane he’d shot down, so he could confirm the victory. As Pilots, there was no comparison. As soldiers and military men, MVR came out ahead.
Voss was IN the Flying Circus and even led one of the 4 Jasta's that made up JG.1 (the Flying Circus).
Werner Voss
Not German, ok, but French René Fonk was the best, especially if you consider the process of counting victories in French air force vs German air force.
Lets remember the amount of respect the enemy showed when he was downed so they obviously felt he was the BEST at that time
Ernst Udet
Voss peaked early.
It reminds me of the talk of who is better Messi or Ronaldo.
Tallys are always relative. Its a matter of charisma instead.
a sabre scar or two helps
high closing speeds? you do realize how slow these things flew right? and chasing each other the closing speed is near zero at times. And some pilots ARE that accurate, just look at Hans Marseille.
I'm not sure I could land a burst in a particular point on a 200 MPH head on pass. As you say, might be easier approaching from the rear. As for H M, I'll have to read up more on that before commenting. Thanks for the comment.
@@CalibanRising you're changing the conditions to suit your argument. No one said anything about a head on pass.
Also, both in air combat, and in the infantry, skilled gunners can shoot amazingly accurately without sights.
In Afghanistan we'd lob grenades from an M203 into a car window are 400yds from the hip. We didn't even mount the M203 sights on the rifle because guys were more accurate hip firing. And when using tracers and such, you can walk rounds onto target. with enough practice you can get a feel for the trajectory just like throwing a baseball. Lot of WW1 fights were at very close range.
Go watch Growling Sidewinder flying WW1 in VR to see how this works.
British: " ... oh, if only I could have brought him down alive ... " Irishman: " ... I hope he sizzles all the way down ... " Irish = The Lower Order.
A killer is a killer mate
It was Foss who was the better pilot.
Not because of his flying skills, Which were superb but, How he was able to give his flying machines more power.
Foss did most of his own mechanical work on his planes. Richthofen had his own mechanic and would look over what had been done to his plane as where Foss did 90% of his own mechanics.
Foss was also recognized as the first person to ever hav a turbo charger in his albatross which gave him almost 35% more power to the aircraft that he applied himself.
All German pilots, as well as Allied flyers modified their own planes to fit their critiria.
When Foss was given his Triplane he put a Bentley engine in it as the Fokker was almost 1/3 lighter than the S.E.5A. With this engine in his plane he had better climb, faster acceleration, could slow down faster. They had a thing called the elevator. Where putting your plane into.tne wind pulling back on your stick to raise you're allerons & lower your tail flaps, which in turn took you horizontally straight up in a twenty mph head wind. One could climb a few thousand feet in just seconds in the Triplane which the British could not follow easily.
Putting that Bentley engine in his plane also gave his the ability to leave the Brits, In otherwords, he was able to fly almost 40 mph faster than the his opponents. A big thing in a dogfight of this era.
Foss had a big advantage in his last dogfight which may hav made him over confident.
Richthofen & Foss were like best friends. When th y were together, they were inseperable, exchanging stories & notes of their flying machines. They hit it off well. They were never enemies. Just rivals. Which made for a great relationship.
Foss did not make a good flight leader because of the kids they were sending him were alot of times older than him. He knew they wouldn't last long in the skies on how he saw them fly in combat or other ariel manuvers & would often comment on it to other people. Who sure enough would most likely be shot down threw their lack of expirece. In a way he quit caring.
The red baron would have simply climbed out of range and survive another day.
Richtofen was the best aerial tactician overall, but Voss was the best overall dogfighter.
Might have been American ,Eddie Rickenbacker ! Only flew a few months ,look at record .
Richthofen’s introduction to the trip lane came courtesy of the Australian ace of aces who jumped his jasta sending two down and manfred diving for home.
Fokker invented the synchronized machine gun system and then copied the E1 from a French design, the DR1 from wrecks of ‘borrowed’
Sopwiths and a bribe to get the thick airfoil of the DR 7.
I can name several allied aces who would have dispatched both Voss and Richtophen
Trip plane?
MvR actually disliked the DR.1, wasn't until Voss warmly recommended it that Richthofen gave it another try, before long two of his best pilots died flying it, Voss and Wolff.
Fokker was an up and coming premier warplane manufacturer, and the Eindecker was a natural evolution from the Taube, borrowing much of the same mechanisms.
And just to recap here: The whole thing started because rogue Entente aircrews were making deadly business blasting German recon planes out of the sky, Fokker had been working on it for 6 months before Garros ever conceived the idea.
Garros's idea was neat but wasn't bullet proof, those deflectors weren't balanced and may well have caused the troubles that caused Garros to crash land in the first place, Fokker stole diddly, the only thing Garros's captured plane did was getting the German's completely sold on the idea.
There were existing patents on synchronized interruptor gear, Saulnier and Garros hurriedly tried them all, they didn't work.
Fokker needed months, and even then it wasn't perfect.
Yes, LVG sued Fokker for the patent, and won, LVG were also lying profiteers, because they never designed and mass produced a fighter plane of their own.
You're mistaking Fokker with Pfalz, the French had the Parasol which Garros put a stripper-fed machinegun in, and deflectors on the propeller, Pfalz built a similarly looking plane but that's about it, there's no conclusive proof to suggest a direct rip-off.
The Sopwith Triplane and the Fokker DR.1 were both triplanes, other than that they were completely different.
What's a DR7? You mean the D.7? That wing design was thanks to a few of Fokker's many designers and engineers, what else were they gonna do, let someone else come up with a winning design? Going by your standards every warplane manufacturer might as well seize and desist.
You're pretty much blaming Fokker for doing standard wartime aircraft design, what about Herbert Smith? Ever heard of him? He designed your "Trip Plane", in fact he designed most of the well-known Sopwith fighters, seldom does anyone celebrate his name, and nobody's blasting Sopwith for that?
Sopwith was not the first nor the last to experiment with triplanes, Nieuport built some experimental models before Sopwith ever bothered with the idea, and Fokker wasn't the only manufacturer to fiddle with the idea as far as the German's went, Pfalz built a test example too, and others, like Caproni, put even more "planes on the plane".
That's the silly patent myth's done away with, onto the killing:
Anyone could have killed either of them, all it takes is one stroke of bad luck, one mistake.
Lanoe Hawker should have slocked Richthofen right outta the sky, for one he had much more experience, secondly he had the lighter, more maneuverable, D.H.2 at his disposal.
By all intents and purposes he should have utterly trashed and trounced MvR in a dogfight, 7 ways to sunday.
Yet what happened? MvR who *reputedly* hated dogfights, fought Hawker, the deadliest the Allies had to offer, into a retreat and gave him what for.
Richthofen had to break nearly every one of his beloved Dicta Boelcke's to buy the farm, and even then it wasn't by air to air combat.
Voss got his ticket punched by a relative newbie flying a SE5a, which is a bit faster than the DR.1 and dives better but that's about it.
It's effectively trash for dogfighting, and it couldn't run away as handily as some claim, you don't just immediately straighten out and dive away from a German fighter that's got you in it's sights.
The SE5, Scout Experimental 5 (Experimental being key word here) enjoyed no more than a 0-40hp difference in engine power, and wouldn't IMMEDIATELY accelerate out of machinegun range, and certainly couldn't outrun bullets, your survival isn't written in stone.
A lot of good pilots died unable to turn out of the firing arc of faster turning Germans, especially in situations where they couldn't run away at the snap of a finger.
You have to dodge oncoming fire, then dive.
The British were painfully aware of this, originally intending to replace the Camel with the SE5, they ended up supplanting the SE5 with the Camel, and later replaced it with a much improved morph of the Camel (Sopwith Snipe), that was equal to, or better than, anything in the sky at the time, and didn't kill pilots.
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Pronunciation error!! Richthofen is pronounced as Rick T Hofen, not Rishtofen!! Do NOT correct me on this!! One of my housemates is GERMAN, & she pronounces it as I wrote it!!
The ch sound in the German language can be pronounced in a hard sound like ck or a soft sh it depends on where you are from. Just like most other countries there are regional dialects. I lived in Germany for 4 years.
I am German and the pronounciation of the name "Richthofen" in this Video is not quite German but fair. The German pronounciation of the letter combination "ch" has no equivalent in English. If you know how to pronounce the "kh" in the Russian aircraft company "Sukhoi", that's close.
"Rick T Hofen" or "Rick-tofen" are pronounciation efforts by native English speakers, the German pronounciation is approximately "fonn Rikht-hohfen" with a longer "o" (like in "door", not like in "stroke"). The nobility title "von" is not pronounced like "Vaughn".
And Werner Voss' correct pronounciation is like "Vair-ner Foss".
At the end of the day you know who I mean, so....
@@markgranger9150 just because you lived there for a few years, it means nothing. When you share your house with someone who was born there to GERMAN parents, and GREW UP there, I’d take more notice of them than you.
@@maxx-as4947 thank you. Exactly what my German housemate said earlier.
Soooooooo, Oswald Boelcke created modern dogfighting and Oswald Boelcke inspired Manfred Von Richthofen.
This assumes that the kills of the _Red Baron_ were actually all genuine. There were occasions when after a sortie he would "tell" a junior pilot about his (MVR's) kill saying "You saw that didn't you Fritz" and what junior officer/pilot was going tell the "great man" and superior officer that no they didn't see it.
Where did you find that BS about the junior pilots? If you have doubt about the veracity of MVR's claims, I recommend "Under the Guns of the Red Baron" by Norman Franks and a couple of co-authors. The authors closely examine the details of every one of his claims, and come to the conclusion that over 70 of the 80 claims are accurate with all but one of the rest being damaged. That's likely a much better percentage than those of the highest scorers among his opponents.
The best German pilot is the one who survives the war with the most victories and that would be Ernst Udet with 62 victories because Werner Voss lost his life because he was too greedy to shoot down more pilots when he was in that air battle with the 56 squadron.
And Herr Richthofen was shot down from the ground when he flew too low and was killed by Cedric Popkin by one bullet through the chest. There is a autopsy report after the Red Baron was shot down and that report said that the man was brought down by one bullet.
Not by Capt Roy Brown.
Doesn't matter who was better....the Baron shot down the most.
Both ended up dead.
Many of Richtofen’s early kills were flying pieces of junk. Those planes were mainly used for reconnaissance and never intended to be armed.
His commander should have grounded him,probably for the remainder of the war for traumatic brain injury.
Voss was probably the best natural pilot but too impulsive, MVR was probably the better tactician of the two (although much obliged to Oswald Boelcke). Ernst Udet was probably the most complete military pilot and the only one that survived WW1 which in itself speaks of good judgemental skills and also some luck 😉
If you look at Richthofen's victories, you will find quite a few examples of multiple German fighters firing on the same British opponent with Manfred being " credited" by the simple expedient that he was the " senior" pilot.
I would rate Mick Mannock as better than both of them. Mannock " nursed" MANY new fighter pilots, putting in a burst or two that would only require a quick burst from the " newbie" to bring him down. Mannock lost count of the number of victories that he secured for new pilots, and there is a persistent story of his eyesight being less than required of a fighter pilot, but that is most likely just an unconfirmed.
Mannocks "true" total is likely far more than Richthofen, though uncounted.
His brother was supposedly a better fighter pilot with a better kill to months on service ratio.
well, would he not have been better, if he had made his mistakes after 80 kills…
😀
NO!!! Werner Voss... The greatest dog fight of all time...
so Voss was a brawn and Richthofen was a brain pilot? or Maverick vs Iceman if you will. No wonder he flew too close to the sun. His ego wrote a check his body couldn't cash.
This is irrelevant. Mick Mannock is the king of the air fighters!