I played in a fairly well-known band. Major touring, high billing at big festivals throughout Europe and Scandinavia, multiple sales, multiple awards, chart positions etc. We got paid ONE-SIXTH OF ONE PENNY for each Sp***fy stream (their top rate). Phil's absolutely bang on. You like an artist and want to support them? Buy the physical product. And wonder why gig ticket prices are through the roof? It's the only way artists can earn a living.
The money Spotify and others pay is the pits. I use Spotify and if. I like an album, I do buy the physical product as I prefer listening that way. Listening to streaming does help though as I have limited income due to bills etc.
Totally agree. You mentioned several problems which I can add to my 'he's on his soap box again' dislike of streaming. My primary reason being that it's unfair to the artiste. Apart from that, I really enjoy the tactile quality physical media.
Killing music might be a bit strong. I think the cost of vinyl lp’s and CD’s is killing my urge to invest in new music, like I used to in the past. For me personally, my streamer allows me to hear new music prior to purchase, and if I think it is worth adding to my collection, I will buy a physical copy.(Space is getting a bit tight now ! ) Also, it lets me listen to some old albums in my collection that I didn’t look after very well back in my teenage years ! Question is, if you did start selling streamers, what would you stock ?
Spot on, new vinyl is prohibitive price wise so for most of the time it has to be a CD for me and streaming to try new music before buying. I do however collect used vinyl and sound quality wise it’s simply the best format.
@@tonyjedioftheforest1364 youtube for new music and buying CDs are the best options for me. Obviously I prefer vinyl over any other music medium sound wise but I refuse to pay 25-30 euros for an album... it's a rip-off. 10 years ago the same albums were much much cheaper... they are inflating the prices.
£35 an album ! I couldn’t believe the price ! I know there is less of a market for people buying vinyl now and so costs may be higher but that was a shock ! That’s anlso not a reason I really buy, because surely there have always been a lot of musicians that were very niche and had a very small group of fans to buy the records ? I only recently returned to buying music and when I think my old punk albums were sometimes £1.99 “ pay no more” written on the cover , I am staggered . Whatever the cost, the format of vinyl albums still represented something more than the sum of its parts I think. When I think of playing my records as a kid ,,I loved hearing them as much then on my cheap turntable as I do now on a sophisticated set up , it was the abilityof the music to capture something that mattered most and when it’s more like a microwave meal than a well considered home cooked one , it doesn’t seem to satisfy . So, vinyl may be expensive , but it’s a considered buy and one that seems to have more ingredients that are satisfying instead of the consumerist I want it now culture that seems to devalue much of the things that vinyl and the slower format offers . I just wish it was still £1.99 ! @@ENGLISHISBEST
I completely understand your position. However I do stream using Roon/Tidal. I use this to discover new music and if I find myself listening and enjoying a particular artist, I go and buy the album. I do realise that I am certainly in the minority though. If you're an audiophile there are some big issues with streaming. More often than not older music is re mastered horribly, tracks appear and dissappear at random, often the tracks are compressed with a pitiful dynamic range.
I think you are describing a personality type rather than how people listen to music. I have seen people clean their homes, while playing vinyl as well as CDs and although I didn’t think they were listening, they were dancing, cleaning, cooking and could quote massive amounts of knowledge from the lyrics and the natural flow of the music. I don’t have this skill. I was once told music could be both a motivation or a depressant. I do respect your reason behind not selling streamers and although I do stream, I prefer physical medium and use streaming to discover new music and if I luv it I will buy the album or cd. I also use streaming as a way to avoid garbage one, two or no hit albums. CDs have become so cheap, that they have become a way of leveraging value from some over expensive vinyl. I have also heard a few CD players, especially with tubes inside that also can command your attention like an Audio Research cd7, cd8 and cd9 among others, who don’t use tubes like Rega.
I Use streaming before I buy , vinyl is expensive , I have taken a punt before on new music by reviews and have been let down , I will allways have hard copies of all the music I like if cd or vinyl
There's nothing magical about a CD player-it's just a CD transport with built-in DAC. So what's the difference between a CD transport into a DAC and a locally stored perfect CD rip into a DAC?
Its a question of compression and noise. My experience streaming online, I've had Tidal MQA, Apple Music with Spatial Audio, and Wobuz. Tidal and Apple are clearly compressed - a lot. Qobuz less so, but still not quite complete. A good player with a CD / CD Rom is bit perfect without compression each spin. Thats the difference
Got to say my own experiences are very different from yours. I listen to vinyl on a good turntable , cd on an excellent transport , reel to reel, cassette and streaming with an Auralic Aries G2 streamer into a Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC. For me, my best source is streaming, though it is not always the case. Sometimes well recorded vinyl or cd will pip the G2 at the post. Reel to reel is fantastic but content is very rare and expensive. In addition I go to gigs, buy vinyl, cd and blu-ray audio (often special editions and box sets) and find new artists on streaming I would never have found otherwise, so I will go and see tgem, buy their physical media etc. To me streaming is a fantastic addition to the musical ecosystem
I’ve had the G2 for around three and a half years. This was solely used for streaming from Qobuz but this changed when I added a server to the system so the G2 is used as a player. I still use Qobuz to determine if I like an album and will either download it from Qobuz or buy the CD and import it. I will be upgrading to the G2.2 as the improvements in sound quality is significant.
@jamesfarrow6752 Glad you have enjoyed your G2. I also used mine as a cd ripper and player, with an external cd drive. It's a versatile device. I now use a Jay's Audio transport for cd duties. I gradually moved up to the Aries from various other streamers and found sound quality improvements every step of the way, so I'm sure you are right, and the 2.2 will move things up a notch.
@@jimfarrell4635 Thank you. That’s a nice transport you have. My primary reason for moving to streaming was because I didn’t have room for more CD’s despite several purges. I also had an issue with the CD transport I was using so that went back to the dealer and helped fund the purchase of the G2. Most of what I streamed was albums I have on CD (I still have them stored in boxes) so that helped ease my conscience in terms of the limited revenue artists receive from streaming. I was also fun, and time consuming, importing my CD collection to the server. As I have a Qobuz Sublime subscription, I can get hi res downloads for less than the cost of the physical CD so this is how I purchase the majority of albums. I am not convinced that hi res is always better but it makes sense to me based on my subscription as the annual cost is only around £24 a year more. The G2.2 is hardly cheap but the level of improvement is astounding, a word I don’t often use. Listening to familiar albums that I’ve had since the 70’s and hearing them in a whole new way is such a joy.
Jim, nice system. I think that some types of music and recordings lend themselves well to streaming direct from Qobuz. I still believe that online streaming is regularly compressed, or something is off. If I listen to a good SACD on Sony's SCD-1 player, it has a sense of completeness and ease that tge hi-res stream can't quite convey. With the latest upgrades, the sound has definitely come a lot closer for me.
So my G2 has developed a fault with its USB output.I could get it fixed but have been offered a decent trade in deal against a G2.2 . Another option is the new Hifi Rose RS130, which is a bit more future proofed, and cheaper, though at the end of the day with trade in deals, both work out a similar outlay to change. Tricky choice. Currently the Rose is on order, but there are delays, so the 2.2 might be back in the frame.
Top video. I agree 100%. One of the biggest issues with streaming compared to vinyl and CD is that streaming services generally only offer the latest master of any music, and modern masters are usually heavily limited for volume. Hence older released CDs sound better than modern streams - because of the more dynamic mastering of 80’s and 90’s CDs. Income from streaming is so low there is no budget to record slowly any more, to experiment, to innovate. Streaming rewards instant gratification. So lowest common denominator is usually the most successful, and you have to grab someone’s attention within the first few seconds before they click on to the next song. Making something deeper, more challenging, more innovative is NOT rewarded.
I think you nailed the issue on the head. It's the mastering, not so much the medium (specifically CD vs streaming). The key is to have a good streaming server and then hunt for the best mastered version of the album and rip/download file to server. I'm heavy into jazz and the DCC jazz CDs are almost as good as the best vinyl versions I have heard.
You’ve hit the nail on the head. A useful exercise is to track the history of Thriller and how successive remixes have killed the ambience of Quincy Jones original production. The streaming 24 bit versions are the latest ‘loud’ mixes which are just dire.
Great video! I completely share your thoughts… although my favorite format is CD. As you know, a good CD player, with a carefull components matching it can be hugely satisfying and engaging in sound quality - especially when it comes to Jazz music. Continuing my 5000+ CD collection is indeed a thrilling hobby, especially visiting records stores in foreign countries :)
Ive had to go over to streàming ,after having two strokes and confined to a chàir. I need something that I can control from that,I've gt to sell my CD,s.
I have 2 sources, one is vinyl with an almost new Linn LP12 "Selekt" + Grado Reference3 MI cartridge + Primaluna Evo 100 phonostage, for streaming a Lumin P1 streamer/DAC using the fiber optic input. On sound quality alone the P1 is 90% most of the time volume matched, sometimes 85%, and infrequently BETTER than my vinyl source. Adding in the convenience and huge selection of streaming, it is a zero brainer choice - everyone should have BOTH types of sources.
This video is just a lazy and unprofessional rant. It’s possible to obtain great sound quality from streaming, at least as good as CD. Yeah, it does need a bit of work especially on the network connection. It’s all in the set-up, like all aspects of good HiFi sound.
A veery good Frend of mine streams his music and just as you pointed out he skips through tracks just like the way you described, it drives me insane he has a really good system it’s just a pity I never get to hear a song all the way through how can he say he enjoys his music when all he douses it flick though it like a mad man. I have to sit there and endure this and smile threw this torcher 🥴🥴🥴🥴🥴I do stream some music but the bulk is vinyl cd ore real to real tape and I sit and listen to it in it’s entirety start to finish, that’s how music shud be heard. One last thing in my experience streamed music has no soul. It’s just clinical and dead.
It's not about the format, that's a misconception. If you like music, you like music regardless of the format. I get as much enjoyment from listening to music on a stream on my Samsung earbuds walking to the gym as I get from listening to it on my £35k system full range. Except when cranking up 2000 Watts on tap with well mastered and recorded albums it's like a PA at a small venue with the room pulsating with bass pressure lol. I can enjoy the music either way.
When I started collecting vinyl 50 years ago there was always a certain demographic of people that did not have a vested interest in supporting the music and the artist yet they always wanted to borrow your vinyl or ask you to record a compilation on cassette (later CD-r). I see streaming very much akin to that culture, people want a certain amount of access to the music but don’t want to get behind the artist. Maybe some don’t realize how little artists receive from streaming but I have and always will buy physical media, sometimes the same title on different physical formats.
Yes, I was listening to a friends high end streaming set up and he was flicking between artists and tracks and the atmosphere was lost. As you say some music is difficult to get into and may need several plays to understand but for me this is always the best music in the end.
I certainly have no interest in streaming music. Vinyl sounds more natural even compared to CD, albeit my CD player is a good match with the rest of my system. But as with any format streaming has its place in the pantheon of hi-fi.
Ehyup Phil! Agreed. Have had subscriptions to Apple Music, Tidal, and Qobuz. Best sound quality Wobuz, so I kept it for second year subscription. Started with streaming from Apple Macbook Air - usb - Wyred4Sound DAC2SE. Got the Recovery (USB reclock). Then replaced with Denafrips Pontus DAC. Then a big improvement moving modem router next to system so direct ethernet connection, along with implementing dedicated streamer EverSolo DMP-A6. Also replaced DAC with Auralic Vega (first version). Auralic is great btw. Finally, got on the bandwagon with a new old stock Cisco 2960G switch, and implemented s fiber bridge for good measure. Yes, major improvements. The goal has been to match the sound of a decent CD / bluray player spinning silver discs. Even with all these upgrades, and with 'hi-res' streaming, the humble CD still is superior (forget about vinyl - good record player and phonestage is still reference class). It makes no sense, but even a 16/44 CD sounds more musically complete, more there, more resolved and clearly defined, and easier to listen to. Ok your coffee (or is it tea?) is getting cold so I will shut up and let you finish : ) Tahrah lad!
Totally agree with this. It's like if someone lends me a book. Often goes unread for a long time, but if I worked to find it myself it tends to get read a lot faster. Thrill of the chase is half of the hobby.
I fear that Phil is increasingly becoming stuck in the past, in a narrow groove with his views, and very out of touch. Expresses dislike of DAC’s in amps, Dislikes Rega turntable mods, won’t sell streamers, compares early CD players to sounding medium wave radio (!). Phil needs to take dose of reality pill and realise / appreciate many potential customers enjoy listening to music on the move digitally, there are more HiFi brands available than Rega, a majority of music consumers are unable to spend thousands on gear, and will not be able listen only to vinyl with a dedicated listening room.
I consider my streaming service as a 'try before you buy' service, like borrowing albums off mates as a lad, If I like it, I buy it. It has also diversified the music I listen to. I agree about gig ticket prices. they are bloody ridiculous. There is a time and a place for 'listening' sometimes (I have a gyrodec for that) but for just having some tunes on while going about your day, streamers are great for that. I don't really agrre bout streamers sounding terrible. My setup sounds good to my cloth ears.
You've articulated this very well. This is exactly how I use streaming. Vinyl is so expensive I want to invest in a redord that I really, really want to listen to. Everything in my collection is spot on.
I primarily steamed music for around 3 years. However, like yourself, I now use streaming as a way to determine whether or not to purchase an album. This can either be a download from Qobuz or on CD, either of which is imported to a server. I agree that streaming can sound good when using a suitable system.
Agree with your points, especially with the little to no revenue going back to the artist. I listen to all levels of media - vinyl, CD and streaming. Streaming is for general listening when I am doing work around the house. Based on my research, I went with Qobuz given they pass along the largest revenue p/stream to an artist. Serious listening is vinyl and CD which provides me the satisfaction with handling and engaging in the media. Brings back memories of the 70's & 80's.
Second mention of Linn here. For me, CD started to sound good with Cambridge CD2, then Linn Ikemi was a big step up, then CD12 was sublime. I found original spec KDS brought recordings to life more, 2011 audio board improved things quite a bit, was surprised how much Katalyst improved things, and Linn's DIY Organik DAC is astonishingly natural. Interestingly I still listen to things the same way, I listen to the radio, if I like, I buy vinyl, HD or CD, I then sit and listen. Streaming services weren't around in 2008 when I got my KDS so I've never got into them.
I’ve just been listening to Black eyed man by the Cowboy Junkies. I’ve always loved this album but only recently acquired it on vinyl for the first time and I’ve discovered tracks I used to gloss over are really good. I totally agree that listening to physical media makes you really listen end to end, there’s too much temptation to flick to another track when streaming if the music isn’t immediately grabbing you.
I stream music to check out Artists and Albums to see if I want to purchase I also make playlists for when I'm writing or driving. For physical media, it has to be vinyl.
Agree with this. I sample new music on youtube or itunes then try to buy the vinyl on the band's bandcamp page to make sure they get top $ from my purchase. Local record stores come next, then Discogs if no luck otherwise.
Outstanding opinions/content. (I actually think the CD vs streaming issue is more age related tbh. I'm 57 and love CDs and vinyl. A 27 year old will think differently..... until the very moment they actually hear CDs/Vinyl!)
Some valid points there, especially the exploitation of artists. I personally think people who are into music will always enjoy all formats whether its streamed or physical formats. I really enjoy and appreciate my streaming service, but I'm also buying more CDs and records than ever before, partly because I'm hearing more music via stream. I also struggle to really hear any difference in sound quality on my admittedly modest system. We all have different tastes and feelings of course- it would be a dull old world if we didn't!
I could not agree more, streaming has ruined hi-fi and music combined. I remember going to hi-fi shows about 10 or 12 years ago and seeing laptops instead of CD players. I knew then things has taken a turn for the worse, why stream when there are so many good CD players out there and CD's are relatively cheap!☹️
The idea that streaming is killing music is debatable tbh. I remember a similar campaign in the 80’s with vinyl album inserts proclaiming taping is killing music. It didn’t. In fact it helped spread music. If I taped something and it was good enough, I would buy it, and in terms of shifting physical units of LP’s CD’s & cassettes, the 80’s & 90’s are now considered a golden era for sales! The same applies today except streaming is the source. If the music is good enough, I buy it.
I first bought a Kenwood CD player in the late eighties and thought it was OK. I still listened to my vinyl mostly though as it gave a way better experinece. Then I bought a Rega Planet CD player and suddenly it all became alive. I still have that player and think it is still prety good. I completely agree with you regarding the experinece of listening to an LP. I would spend hours with friends just sitting and listening to the latest from our favourite artists. Sometimes playing the same album two or three times in a row. Younger members of my family laugh at me when I tell them that. I also really miss having a chat with the staff in a good record shop. I discovered many of my now favourite artists from recommendations of those guys. The demise of small, local record stores is a huge loss.
Somewhat silly Phil, but your the boss. My streamer and associated streaming service has pushed the purchase of more physical albums in my collection than even before. I personally rip my purchased albums to a network attached drive and use software to manage it all. My Atoll ST200 streamer makes it so easy to access all my music. It has a beautiful internal DAC, internet radio radio, DLNA discovery with other devices, Tidal connect, etc. Your poor customers don’t know what their missing. Brian
Great video. Thank you for sharing and expressing your opinion on streaming. While I don’t fully agree with you, your points on streaming are excellent. I do agree with the idea of owning your music. This is something I miss and is a downside to streaming. I’m in my late 60’s and starting a journey on two channel music. I currently only stream music, using Tidal and Roon as my music engines. Many decades ago I owned some decent audio equipment and as a result of that experience I have no nostalgia for vinyl. I still remember the ‘snap’, ‘crackle’ and ‘pop’ of vinyl when listening. Maybe someday I’ll revisit vinyl. I’ve enjoyed streaming because I do ignore the AI generated list of music I might like and deliberately try music genres I haven’t experienced. As an example, I never would have bought the Album “Kind of Blue” by Miles Davis. I recently found this album on Tidal and I gave it a listen. Wow…great experience. Loved the music. I’m now excited to try more and different types of jazz. I completely agree that the compensation model to artists is unfair. I can’t impact that business model. I recently attended a great audio show in Raleigh NC sponsored by Audio Advice. I was stunned as to the quality of the hardware as I was equally stunned as to the price! I can’t fathom spending $10,000 for a turntable and then finding out I need to spend another $5,000 for the needle! Streaming, as a way to engage with music in a cost effective manner, is probably the way I need to go in the short term. Again, great video. Loved hearing your opinions. Thank you.
I got rid of Spotify this year and started a vinyl collection. The cost is prohibitive. I've spent over a grand already so now I'm also collecting CDs. I still keep my digital collection on my PC and phone, but now I add to that digital collection by ripping the CDs I buy. I also sometimes try new music (to me) on UA-cam before buying the CD. I like your videos. I'm 34. Also a massive thank you for your Rega TT servicing video and the oil I purchased. The £8 was a small price when you factor in the oil, the how to video and the nice little instruction slip included. Now, how do I convince my Wife who uses Spotify that my physical media is not a waste of money?
I have thousand’s of vinyl albums but I couldn’t be doing with the background noise present with vinyl LPs. I do have a good turntable (SME + Koetsu) yes it can sound very good on some albums but I embraced digital because of the lack of clicks & pops, where as digital is quiet with no extraneous background noise.
Oh dear Phil 🙈 You are a quality guy , I’ve dealt with , I know you know you stuff . But Sorry mate , I was like you Anti streaming , now with an Eversolo A8 the quality via Tidal is excellent . I can enjoy more music all kinds of music it’s all about the music , algorithms that recommend new stuff all the time without searching for the same old CDs You went to the North West hi .Fi show ? ATC room always good , great gear sensible money , the source was a streamer and so on many many rooms , there are some wonderful streamers these days ..It’s the future , your missing a trick Best regards Allan Whittle
Not just you Phil👍Fellow paid up Luddite here🙂Tommy Vance! love it. Never had a seperate Dac, or even a 'smartphone' and have never considered 'streamers'. 'No such thing as a free lunch.' Common sense if you like real tactile quality. Enjoy your music, and all the best to you and all of your viewers❤
I have a Cambridge Audio CXN streamer in my setup, however I have it purely as an 'internet radio'. I can listen to stations all over the world in excellent quality, but my music is still listened to and purchased on CD or vinyl...
Agreed. A true high-end sound isn't accessible on a small budget, as much as many would like to think it is. It just isn't sadly, and it should be.... those who think it is, haven't heard what music reproduction is really capable of....
It’s the opposite to my experience, as soon as you get , a good streaming service like Qobuz , Tidal is not as good and am glad mqa is gone. Get a good resistor dac and a good high end streamer and feed it cd quality, or better , the sub bass is present un like records .. even good original pressings.
Disagree, that's for audiophiles who are obsessed with the tech probably more than the music. Buying a decent system for people's who budget is not "over the top" & enjoy the lyrics with the music rather than analysing every musical note is possible. A few months wage is more than enough to purchase a decent set up.
@@ENGLISHISBEST he means beyond a very basic, ok-ish vinyl set-up such as a Rega P3 with Elys cartridge.... but, on this, you will certainly get music with lyrics
I don't stream for four reasons: 1. the artists aren't paid enough, I buy CD's and downloads and I think that downloads sound as good as CD's 2. I listen mostly to classical music and Spotify etc don't have a proper way for searching the music. 3. there are many rare recordings that are not on the streaming services, also, they usually have the latest version, often 'remastered' one which are usually destroyed in the loudness war and I often like the first CD version better. 4. I am sure that soon the algorithms/bribery will push people more and more to the music the companies want you to listen to and block out any innovation. Can you imagine the Sex Pistols trying to get an audience right now? The same with local bands. LP's are not for me anymore. When I hear a LP on a high end system I still miss the high resolving quality of a CD. My standard: A piano on a LP does not sound like a real piano, it lacks a lot of the rich overtones which you do hear on a CD.
LP’s in my system have exquisite timbre, tone, decay and absolutely kick derrière soundstage. But you are not going to get any of that with a mediocre turntable and 50 dollar cartridge, and bad loudspeakers.
Agree with you Phil.will always prefer vinyl& cd.Okay there are issues,such as lasers/styli wearing out,but I prefer that to problems with internet connections.The only streaming system I heard that was A1 was a hideously ugly Wadax combo(£120,000 approx!!),even then I was still thinking a cd player or excellent tt would have been better at a fraction of the price.Stick to your guns,as I really believe if a lot of dealers were honest they would admit they are selling a retrograde format in terms of emotional involvement,but push it,as that is what so many tech slaves will only consider.
Your perfectly within your rights not selling streamers, but I’m afraid you can’t put the genie back in the bottle , there is some value to your points, supporting artists at local gigs is dying that’s really sad, I don’t have a answer sadly
An interesting listen thanks. I have a side shoot to the debate over the quality of different formats - most of my old records (LPs) from the late seventies and early eighties have gone AWOL over the decades for reasons that ultimately I have to take the blame for. However, my question is, what should I replace them with, a new, sealed, modern pressing on 180g vinyl from my local record store, or a decent condition original pressing found at a record fair, charity shop, etc. Assuming the forty year old pressing is in excellent condition, and all other things being equal, and cost not being a factor, which is likely to be the more entertaining listen…? Could be a topic for another talk, perhaps…
The problem with the main stream streaming services is - Spotify, Tidal and the like - that if you have a wide range of musical tastes you are pretty knackered. Especially for classical and jazz. I don't wan to listen to "Cool Jazz" I want to listen to John Coltrain !!!
You seem like a good person. I am surprised at this video, it reveals your ignorance towards the truth. Vinyl, Digital, Streaming....it's all about the mastering. Please don't behave like this, you are a better human.....
PS, I have noticed that with now buying higher quality equipment that the original recordings do make a massive difference in my ability to enjoy the music . My older less sophisticated record player in my teens made everything sound the same whether a good recording or bad and so it was a level,playing field in a perverse way . With higher quality systems , those less good recordings by some “ GarageBands” of the 70s sound pretty rough , even listening to the Velvet Underground first album wasn’t so good as it once did . Maybe letting Andy Warhol,produce it wasn’t such a good idea , still a genius record though . I think with streaming they reproduce a lot of the older music and clean it up a lot , often too much until it can sound sterile . Music for AI .
Hi, I have a close friend who used to play drums in a band who played the start and end tunes for the John Lennon Old Grey whistle test TV show back in the day. He would totally agree with you. He had to move to Berlin to support German bands and fill his spare time with taxi driving to make a living. As for your quality argument, I'm not so sure. It seems to me from experience that perhaps due to lack of money, a lot less effort is put into recording the band/orchestra and the mixing. Sometimes, it can sound like they only used one Mike, and someone was sitting on it at the time of recording. I have NAIM equipment just for the record, but i would like to give you one example. Chris Rea The Road to Hell album. I started to play it on CD with no problems, and so I thought that I would make a comparison with the streamed version. I was shocked by how thin the music sounded. On further investigation, it turned out that this was the American mix. Even track 4, although having the same name was a different tune. I then went from TIDAL to Spotify Conect and found that their version sounded on comparison better than my CD. It seems to be very much a case of potluck. The biggest outcome for me was that for all their claims, TIDAL wasn't all that they were made up to be.
Thanks for the video. I’m confused though: are you refusing to stock a streamer on principled grounds, or is this stand against digital music generally? If the latter I’d have to say it’s a hard sell for me: the lossless file is the same whether from a rip or a digital store, no? Audio snobbery is not my bag.
I’m a streamer but I’ve started buying CDs again as well. I personally don’t hear enough of a difference from my CD album vs the streamer version, it’s certainly close. However, I agree with all your points otherwise, we can’t lose music and physical media preserves it from a collection standpoint, and pays the artist properly. I believe streaming has to be overhauled to protect against music suffering, in the same way film is not taking risks because they don’t make enough money from streaming.
It's OK if your a massive sales volume shifter like Taylor Swift. Legacy acts & writers will have benefited from streaming as old tracks appear on playlists.
I prefer vinyl - BUT streaming enables me to try out recommended albums that are written about in the hifi magazines - and it's even better when they're by artists I've never heard of. There's no way I could afford to do that with new records at £25 a shot just to try them out. Then if I find a 'new' artist that I discover I like, THEN I'll seek it out on vinyl.
Hey Phil, this was a great video, thank you for uploading it. I live on the other side of the world in Seattle in the US but I am lucky enough to live near a long time Naim dealer called Hawthorne Stereo. The people there are amazing, so grateful they took the time to teach me to hear what good hifi gear can do. Listening to records on my Roksan Xerxes 20 plus (with Naim olive NAC 72/Hicap/NAP 250 through Audio Physic speakers) is really effortlessly captivating. Just on another level from any digital I have heard. A level where you really want to be present, and you're not thinking about what to play next or spacing out in any way (except the kind of emotional/imaginative engagement really great music inspires). When you say in this video that you can't have a record going in the background when you are doing something else because you keep getting drawn into the music, that chimes perfectly with my own experience. Thanks also for your opinion about streamers in general, and for mentioning high end Naim streamers in particular, which are supposed to be among the best. Not sure of my next step for the system, but I had been considering getting on the Naim streamer ladder. That or buying a used Naim CD player--CDS2 or 3 or CD555. But I have heard that even the best CD replay may not approach what I am hearing from the Xerxes. Now that I have heard your input on streamers, I will probably stick with my Primare for now, which I like a lot, though it is not compelling in the way listening to records is. Probably I will go all in on analog and get a Superline with Supercap for the Roksan--though going to take a while to save for that! Cheers and thank you again for your channel.
I think you are describing a personality type rather than how people listen to music. I have seen people clean their homes, while playing vinyl as well as CDs and although I didn’t think they were listening, they were dancing, cleaning, cooking and could quote massive amounts of knowledge from the lyrics and the natural flow of the music. I don’t have this skill. I was once told music could be both a motivation or a depressant. I do respect your reason behind not selling streamers and although I do stream, I prefer physical medium and use streaming to discover new music and if I luv it I will buy the album or cd. I also use streaming as a way to avoid garbage one, two or no hit albums. I have also heard a few CD players, especially with tubes inside that also can command your attention like an Audio Research cd7, cd8 and cd9 among others, who don’t use tubes like Rega.
I listen to a lot of music on UA-cam , with the computer connected to a stereo system . The sound can be surprisingly good through a quality amp , DAC , and speakers , but anything I especially like I'll buy on CD anyway . Unfortunately , the sound quality of a lot of older recordings transferred to CD is indifferent to downright poor , which hardly encourages me to buy them . I won't be going the streaming route though , because I can't be assed to research equipment choice or to spend even more money on it
You said recently that you never read the comments. Such a shame. I didn't realise how poor early CD players were until i bought a marantz CD 6005 player. Streaming definitely lacks soul. I suppose it will get better but until artists are paid what they are worth I wont be streaming. Vinyl still reigns supreme.
You make some good points about distraction with screens in your hand when operating streaming devices, and also about artists being ripped off by streaming services. But I just don’t think you’ve listened to streaming set ups that are done with the right gear in the right way, and the right hands and speakers and rooms to bring the music to life in full as much as it ever was with vinyl.
I agree with you but most vinyl is second hand with zero going back to artists. I agree about the rest of it. Especially people who think that streaming is music instead of just pixelated noise. I stepped back into vinyl, after being in cd land for years. It was a Rega player and it goodish, but I bought cheap Audio Technica turntable to experiment what I was missing and now plan to leap to a Rega 6
I don’t agree that most vinyl purchases are second hand. I only listen to vinyl and buy only new records, at least one new record a week. Please have a look, there is some amazing music being released every day.
I have a bluMe Pro, sub $200 usd, Bluetooth streamer that I use to clean house and DEMO music I am interested in. It is either for domestic chores or to play musical detective.
The local hi-fi gang with whom I associate, with the exception of one, listen almost exclusively via streaming. It’s a bit sad. There’s one who listens to a lot of vinyl so in that I take comfort. I do stream, but don’t think I will ever invest in “serious” streaming gear. My serious listening is vinyl where the only distraction may be reading the liner notes.
Another quick point that you make about the challenge...Think about CD, people popped the CD into the player, sat back and listened. Some early kit did sound a little hard and brittle, but others sounded Superb, The Sony CD101....Brittle, time shared DAC. The Philips CD100, Lovely, mechanical, slow, but DUAL DACS, dedicated per channel and with over sampling. Comparing to LP's, which were very interactive and interesting, a Joy to use and to listen to and see playing the discs gracefully, CD was too easy. Don't Blame digital, as there were already hundreds of titles that were released on LP that were Digitally recorded and mixed! 16 bit, 44.1 or 50KHz sampled. Interactivity is key, it is part of the challenge to use enthusiasts, but what made it super successful, was the ease and convenience for the masses, and quickly portability. Like Cassettes. LP's were all we had for years, there wasn't a choice until Philips, along with Sony's support, innovation and Excellence brought us the Cassette and the CD. Make things too easy and those that appreciate the challenge and involvement, lose some of that joy.
I mainly stream, I have to say it’s totally engaging and massively enjoyable, I also use CD for an offline alternative very similar in presentation just a little more detail, records for me are to maintenance heavy to take on.
We have Spotify they have up the rate. I am now disabled but my kids are not that interested in my my old record collection or cds. My youngest kid dances about if it’s got a beat
Talking about streaming, need at least cd quality in the stream. However I also used to listen to cassette a lot back in the early 90s in the car, cassette quality is rough at best but a good convenience.
Yes often I'll hear a track & comment on it in 2 cafes I use before work. Speakers are fed by a streamer via a phone. Staff rarely know whats playing or the artist as no announcer unlike radio 🙄
Just to add I dont stream but have every other format it depends on your mood, I dont stream but have a few thousand albums on hi-res as well as vinyl & cds, its whatever floats your boat at the time.
I experienced this at a hifi dealer using streaming to demonstrate speakers and amps they never finished a track kept swapping listen to this one then this one. I left with a headache..
I’m only interested in physical media. I love the inconvenience and storage space lost to my collection lol. Seriously, there are lots of good reasons why physical media is best overall. I also think KISS philosophy plays a part here.
I agree with your main point - the business model for streaming is unsustainable - there is nothing in it for the artist. The artists have to be compensated for their endeavours. I also agree with your other points but I think that may be my age! I have a now aging mid fi system and must say the newest component, a Cambridge streamer, sounds quite good. Get your point about lack of involvement but that’s getting really philosophical.
I've been living abroad in a rented flat for 13 years leaving behind my traditional system (TT/CD/Cassette/Tuner) and feel that the streaming explosion has passed me by. Out here I have a DVD player for CDs but no TT. I now have a 'streamer' - well an Amazon Echo Dot that doubles up as an alarm clock. I use it for background music rather than CD because I'd need a CD multiplayer for the length of time I need stuff in the background. I don't fancy investing in another format - another grumpy old Luddite - and will hopefully return home permanently soon to spend more time listening to my classic system.
I stream music on the go and in the car, rarely at home. I agree that the relationship with music streaming is a very different experience- skipping tracks after a a minute or two and an impatience attached to the process. There is no doubt streaming is cost effective- you have access to the worlds biggest juke box- all that music just a couple of clicks away. That is mind blowing when you think about it- my 12 year old self would be awestruck at that prospect. I do agree that the thrill of chase- visiting all the local record stores on a Saturday was a ritual and going on holiday visiting a new town or city was always exciting- first stop was the record stores. The adrenaline rush at discovering "gold" was better than sex. The internet kinda ruined that and it became the drunken shopping experience late at night on Amazon and the surprise when a load of discs started to arrive as you had no memory of buying them!
Good Video Phil I have been collecting gear for over 40 years I agree the streamers are convenient but to rig one up as a main central sonic focus point is rather cumbersome. I had a lot of gear and still have and also make Music to. Hi Res is exactly like You mentioned and I am glad that You nailed it. Its so devoid of distortion and such that its actual quality is very linear and dark in that it lacks life. Everything today they try and push as something to do with resolution being the main goal and side stepping the actual components that are in the chain like power supply's and circuit topology. They are trying to get something out of nothing in a virtual platform instead of a physical medium one thats dedicated. I see some Hi end systems and in the middle of the photo is some sort of streaming device which really narks Me. Its like when You see a decent audio rig and in the middle of it is a large flat screen TV which dictates the entire presentation and extremely detracting. I had some really rare items Phil and still own them and will never ever sell them because I know I will never be able to equal or beat there sonic attributes. A lot of the Younger generation have never known what it was like to do trial and error on a buying basis which is an awful shame. If anything when these Streamers are pumped into even a medium quality system there flaws are drawn out. I also design Hi-fi from time to time to and have many concepts I would love to make. Great video and thoughts Phil. Many Thanks Sir.
MQA is a solution looking for a problem in my opinion. As for hi res files well what you have to take into account is that the vast majority of original recordings are on analogue audio tape so no matter how high res the file is it will only be as good as the original analogue master tape, you cannot magically improve it. CD and vinyl sound different as one is producing sound by dragging a rock through 20 pence worth of plastic and the other uses noughts and ones. Which you prefer is a personal choice rather than a technical choice.
I played in a fairly well-known band. Major touring, high billing at big festivals throughout Europe and Scandinavia, multiple sales, multiple awards, chart positions etc. We got paid ONE-SIXTH OF ONE PENNY for each Sp***fy stream (their top rate). Phil's absolutely bang on. You like an artist and want to support them? Buy the physical product. And wonder why gig ticket prices are through the roof? It's the only way artists can earn a living.
Plus streaming content can disappear at any time. Physical is better quality, doesn’t need internet, can be taken anywhere etc
From Hell?
@@steverobinson939 Yup ........
Like Napalm Death/Carcass?
The money Spotify and others pay is the pits. I use Spotify and if. I like an album, I do buy the physical product as I prefer listening that way. Listening to streaming does help though as I have limited income due to bills etc.
Totally agree. You mentioned several problems which I can add to my 'he's on his soap box again' dislike of streaming. My primary reason being that it's unfair to the artiste. Apart from that, I really enjoy the tactile quality physical media.
Killing music might be a bit strong. I think the cost of vinyl lp’s and CD’s is killing my urge to invest in new music, like I used to in the past. For me personally, my streamer allows me to hear new music prior to purchase, and if I think it is worth adding to my collection, I will buy a physical copy.(Space is getting a bit tight now ! )
Also, it lets me listen to some old albums in my collection that I didn’t look after very well back in my teenage years !
Question is, if you did start selling streamers, what would you stock ?
well, the cost of CDs is lower than many digital music subscriptions... vinyls are a rip off btw.
Spot on, new vinyl is prohibitive price wise so for most of the time it has to be a CD for me and streaming to try new music before buying. I do however collect used vinyl and sound quality wise it’s simply the best format.
@@tonyjedioftheforest1364 youtube for new music and buying CDs are the best options for me.
Obviously I prefer vinyl over any other music medium sound wise but I refuse to pay 25-30 euros for an album... it's a rip-off. 10 years ago the same albums were much much cheaper... they are inflating the prices.
Picking up cds at present for £2 a pop at present is a no brainer, my vinyl purchases have dropped since the crazy surge in price.
£35 an album ! I couldn’t believe the price ! I know there is less of a market for people buying vinyl now and so costs may be higher but that was a shock ! That’s anlso not a reason I really buy, because surely there have always been a lot of musicians that were very niche and had a very small group of fans to buy the records ? I only recently returned to buying music and when I think my old punk albums were sometimes £1.99 “ pay no more” written on the cover , I am staggered . Whatever the cost, the format of vinyl albums still represented something more than the sum of its parts I think. When I think of playing my records as a kid ,,I loved hearing them as much then on my cheap turntable as I do now on a sophisticated set up , it was the abilityof the music to capture something that mattered most and when it’s more like a microwave meal than a well considered home cooked one , it doesn’t seem to satisfy . So, vinyl may be expensive , but it’s a considered buy and one that seems to have more ingredients that are satisfying instead of the consumerist I want it now culture that seems to devalue much of the things that vinyl and the slower format offers . I just wish it was still £1.99 !
@@ENGLISHISBEST
I completely understand your position. However I do stream using Roon/Tidal. I use this to discover new music and if I find myself listening and enjoying a particular artist, I go and buy the album. I do realise that I am certainly in the minority though. If you're an audiophile there are some big issues with streaming. More often than not older music is re mastered horribly, tracks appear and dissappear at random, often the tracks are compressed with a pitiful dynamic range.
I think you are describing a personality type rather than how people listen to music. I have seen people clean their homes, while playing vinyl as well as CDs and although I didn’t think they were listening, they were dancing, cleaning, cooking and could quote massive amounts of knowledge from the lyrics and the natural flow of the music. I don’t have this skill.
I was once told music could be both a motivation or a depressant. I do respect your reason behind not selling streamers and although I do stream, I prefer physical medium and use streaming to discover new music and if I luv it I will buy the album or cd.
I also use streaming as a way to avoid garbage one, two or no hit albums. CDs have become so cheap, that they have become a way of leveraging value from some over expensive vinyl. I have also heard a few CD players, especially with tubes inside that also can command your attention like an Audio Research cd7, cd8 and cd9 among others, who don’t use tubes like Rega.
I Use streaming before I buy , vinyl is expensive , I have taken a punt before on new music by reviews and have been let down , I will allways have hard copies of all the music I like if cd or vinyl
There's nothing magical about a CD player-it's just a CD transport with built-in DAC. So what's the difference between a CD transport into a DAC and a locally stored perfect CD rip into a DAC?
Its a question of compression and noise. My experience streaming online, I've had Tidal MQA, Apple Music with Spatial Audio, and Wobuz. Tidal and Apple are clearly compressed - a lot. Qobuz less so, but still not quite complete. A good player with a CD / CD Rom is bit perfect without compression each spin. Thats the difference
Got to say my own experiences are very different from yours. I listen to vinyl on a good turntable , cd on an excellent transport , reel to reel, cassette and streaming with an Auralic Aries G2 streamer into a Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC.
For me, my best source is streaming, though it is not always the case. Sometimes well recorded vinyl or cd will pip the G2 at the post. Reel to reel is fantastic but content is very rare and expensive.
In addition I go to gigs, buy vinyl, cd and blu-ray audio (often special editions and box sets) and find new artists on streaming I would never have found otherwise, so I will go and see tgem, buy their physical media etc.
To me streaming is a fantastic addition to the musical ecosystem
I’ve had the G2 for around three and a half years. This was solely used for streaming from Qobuz but this changed when I added a server to the system so the G2 is used as a player. I still use Qobuz to determine if I like an album and will either download it from Qobuz or buy the CD and import it.
I will be upgrading to the G2.2 as the improvements in sound quality is significant.
@jamesfarrow6752 Glad you have enjoyed your G2. I also used mine as a cd ripper and player, with an external cd drive. It's a versatile device. I now use a Jay's Audio transport for cd duties.
I gradually moved up to the Aries from various other streamers and found sound quality improvements every step of the way, so I'm sure you are right, and the 2.2 will move things up a notch.
@@jimfarrell4635 Thank you. That’s a nice transport you have.
My primary reason for moving to streaming was because I didn’t have room for more CD’s despite several purges. I also had an issue with the CD transport I was using so that went back to the dealer and helped fund the purchase of the G2. Most of what I streamed was albums I have on CD (I still have them stored in boxes) so that helped ease my conscience in terms of the limited revenue artists receive from streaming. I was also fun, and time consuming, importing my CD collection to the server.
As I have a Qobuz Sublime subscription, I can get hi res downloads for less than the cost of the physical CD so this is how I purchase the majority of albums. I am not convinced that hi res is always better but it makes sense to me based on my subscription as the annual cost is only around £24 a year more.
The G2.2 is hardly cheap but the level of improvement is astounding, a word I don’t often use. Listening to familiar albums that I’ve had since the 70’s and hearing them in a whole new way is such a joy.
Jim, nice system. I think that some types of music and recordings lend themselves well to streaming direct from Qobuz. I still believe that online streaming is regularly compressed, or something is off. If I listen to a good SACD on Sony's SCD-1 player, it has a sense of completeness and ease that tge hi-res stream can't quite convey. With the latest upgrades, the sound has definitely come a lot closer for me.
So my G2 has developed a fault with its USB output.I could get it fixed but have been offered a decent trade in deal against a G2.2 . Another option is the new Hifi Rose RS130, which is a bit more future proofed, and cheaper, though at the end of the day with trade in deals, both work out a similar outlay to change. Tricky choice. Currently the Rose is on order, but there are delays, so the 2.2 might be back in the frame.
Top video. I agree 100%.
One of the biggest issues with streaming compared to vinyl and CD is that streaming services generally only offer the latest master of any music, and modern masters are usually heavily limited for volume. Hence older released CDs sound better than modern streams - because of the more dynamic mastering of 80’s and 90’s CDs.
Income from streaming is so low there is no budget to record slowly any more, to experiment, to innovate.
Streaming rewards instant gratification. So lowest common denominator is usually the most successful, and you have to grab someone’s attention within the first few seconds before they click on to the next song.
Making something deeper, more challenging, more innovative is NOT rewarded.
I think you nailed the issue on the head. It's the mastering, not so much the medium (specifically CD vs streaming). The key is to have a good streaming server and then hunt for the best mastered version of the album and rip/download file to server. I'm heavy into jazz and the DCC jazz CDs are almost as good as the best vinyl versions I have heard.
@@arize84 Most times only the latest master is available.
You’ve hit the nail on the head. A useful exercise is to track the history of Thriller and how successive remixes have killed the ambience of Quincy Jones original production. The streaming 24 bit versions are the latest ‘loud’ mixes which are just dire.
Great video!
I completely share your thoughts… although my favorite format is CD.
As you know, a good CD player, with a carefull components matching it can be hugely satisfying and engaging in sound quality - especially when it comes to Jazz music.
Continuing my 5000+ CD collection is indeed a thrilling hobby, especially visiting records stores in foreign countries :)
Just rip end encode your CD's. Multi room, album art, tagging etc.
I only stream from Spotify when I'm away in my campervan When at home I only play Vinyl and CDs I have bought 40 albums in the last 3 months
Ive had to go over to streàming ,after having two strokes and confined to a chàir. I need something that I can control from that,I've gt to sell my CD,s.
I have 2 sources, one is vinyl with an almost new Linn LP12 "Selekt" + Grado Reference3 MI cartridge + Primaluna Evo 100 phonostage, for streaming a Lumin P1 streamer/DAC using the fiber optic input. On sound quality alone the P1 is 90% most of the time volume matched, sometimes 85%, and infrequently BETTER than my vinyl source. Adding in the convenience and huge selection of streaming, it is a zero brainer choice - everyone should have BOTH types of sources.
This video is just a lazy and unprofessional rant. It’s possible to obtain great sound quality from streaming, at least as good as CD. Yeah, it does need a bit of work especially on the network connection. It’s all in the set-up, like all aspects of good HiFi sound.
A veery good Frend of mine streams his music and just as you pointed out he skips through tracks just like the way you described, it drives me insane he has a really good system it’s just a pity I never get to hear a song all the way through how can he say he enjoys his music when all he douses it flick though it like a mad man. I have to sit there and endure this and smile threw this torcher 🥴🥴🥴🥴🥴I do stream some music but the bulk is vinyl cd ore real to real tape and I sit and listen to it in it’s entirety start to finish, that’s how music shud be heard. One last thing in my experience streamed music has no soul. It’s just clinical and dead.
LOL HD audio surpasses vinyl. 24 bit 192khz and better wipes floor on vinyl
It's not about the format, that's a misconception. If you like music, you like music regardless of the format.
I get as much enjoyment from listening to music on a stream on my Samsung earbuds walking to the gym as I get from listening to it on my £35k system full range.
Except when cranking up 2000 Watts on tap with well mastered and recorded albums it's like a PA at a small venue with the room pulsating with bass pressure lol.
I can enjoy the music either way.
When I started collecting vinyl 50 years ago there was always a certain demographic of people that did not have a vested interest in supporting the music and the artist yet they always wanted to borrow your vinyl or ask you to record a compilation on cassette (later CD-r). I see streaming very much akin to that culture, people want a certain amount of access to the music but don’t want to get behind the artist. Maybe some don’t realize how little artists receive from streaming but I have and always will buy physical media, sometimes the same title on different physical formats.
Yes, I was listening to a friends high end streaming set up and he was flicking between artists and tracks and the atmosphere was lost. As you say some music is difficult to get into and may need several plays to understand but for me this is always the best music in the end.
I certainly have no interest in streaming music. Vinyl sounds more natural even compared to CD, albeit my CD player is a good match with the rest of my system. But as with any format streaming has its place in the pantheon of hi-fi.
Your spot on I bought a ifi steamer 2 years ago and won't be buying another,stick with my rega and Yamaha CD player 👍
Ehyup Phil! Agreed. Have had subscriptions to Apple Music, Tidal, and Qobuz. Best sound quality Wobuz, so I kept it for second year subscription. Started with streaming from Apple Macbook Air - usb - Wyred4Sound DAC2SE. Got the Recovery (USB reclock). Then replaced with Denafrips Pontus DAC. Then a big improvement moving modem router next to system so direct ethernet connection, along with implementing dedicated streamer EverSolo DMP-A6. Also replaced DAC with Auralic Vega (first version). Auralic is great btw. Finally, got on the bandwagon with a new old stock Cisco 2960G switch, and implemented s fiber bridge for good measure. Yes, major improvements. The goal has been to match the sound of a decent CD / bluray player spinning silver discs. Even with all these upgrades, and with 'hi-res' streaming, the humble CD still is superior (forget about vinyl - good record player and phonestage is still reference class). It makes no sense, but even a 16/44 CD sounds more musically complete, more there, more resolved and clearly defined, and easier to listen to.
Ok your coffee (or is it tea?) is getting cold so I will shut up and let you finish : ) Tahrah lad!
Totally agree with this. It's like if someone lends me a book. Often goes unread for a long time, but if I worked to find it myself it tends to get read a lot faster. Thrill of the chase is half of the hobby.
I fear that Phil is increasingly becoming stuck in the past, in a narrow groove with his views, and very out of touch. Expresses dislike of DAC’s in amps, Dislikes Rega turntable mods, won’t sell streamers, compares early CD players to sounding medium wave radio (!). Phil needs to take dose of reality pill and realise / appreciate many potential customers enjoy listening to music on the move digitally, there are more HiFi brands available than Rega, a majority of music consumers are unable to spend thousands on gear, and will not be able listen only to vinyl with a dedicated listening room.
I consider my streaming service as a 'try before you buy' service, like borrowing albums off mates as a lad, If I like it, I buy it. It has also diversified the music I listen to.
I agree about gig ticket prices. they are bloody ridiculous.
There is a time and a place for 'listening' sometimes (I have a gyrodec for that) but for just having some tunes on while going about your day, streamers are great for that.
I don't really agrre bout streamers sounding terrible. My setup sounds good to my cloth ears.
You've articulated this very well. This is exactly how I use streaming. Vinyl is so expensive I want to invest in a redord that I really, really want to listen to. Everything in my collection is spot on.
I primarily steamed music for around 3 years. However, like yourself, I now use streaming as a way to determine whether or not to purchase an album. This can either be a download from Qobuz or on CD, either of which is imported to a server.
I agree that streaming can sound good when using a suitable system.
Quite obvious really. Record players gives repeat custom, with cartidges, mats, cleaning products, phono stages. Streamers don't.
I only buy CD from charity shops. I'm mostly vinyl, tape and FM radio
Agree with your points, especially with the little to no revenue going back to the artist. I listen to all levels of media - vinyl, CD and streaming. Streaming is for general listening when I am doing work around the house. Based on my research, I went with Qobuz given they pass along the largest revenue p/stream to an artist. Serious listening is vinyl and CD which provides me the satisfaction with handling and engaging in the media. Brings back memories of the 70's & 80's.
Second mention of Linn here. For me, CD started to sound good with Cambridge CD2, then Linn Ikemi was a big step up, then CD12 was sublime. I found original spec KDS brought recordings to life more, 2011 audio board improved things quite a bit, was surprised how much Katalyst improved things, and Linn's DIY Organik DAC is astonishingly natural. Interestingly I still listen to things the same way, I listen to the radio, if I like, I buy vinyl, HD or CD, I then sit and listen. Streaming services weren't around in 2008 when I got my KDS so I've never got into them.
Still have my Cambridge Audio CD3 and listen to it daily.
Cheers from Australia.
For me it was the Naim CDS1 and then the CDS2.
I’ve just been listening to Black eyed man by the Cowboy Junkies. I’ve always loved this album but only recently acquired it on vinyl for the first time and I’ve discovered tracks I used to gloss over are really good. I totally agree that listening to physical media makes you really listen end to end, there’s too much temptation to flick to another track when streaming if the music isn’t immediately grabbing you.
That is true.
👍😎
I stream music to check out Artists and Albums to see if I want to purchase
I also make playlists for when I'm writing or driving.
For physical media, it has to be vinyl.
Agree with this. I sample new music on youtube or itunes then try to buy the vinyl on the band's bandcamp page to make sure they get top $ from my purchase. Local record stores come next, then Discogs if no luck otherwise.
Outstanding opinions/content.
(I actually think the CD vs streaming issue is more age related tbh. I'm 57 and love CDs and vinyl. A 27 year old will think differently..... until the very moment they actually hear CDs/Vinyl!)
Some valid points there, especially the exploitation of artists. I personally think people who are into music will always enjoy all formats whether its streamed or physical formats. I really enjoy and appreciate my streaming service, but I'm also buying more CDs and records than ever before, partly because I'm hearing more music via stream. I also struggle to really hear any difference in sound quality on my admittedly modest system. We all have different tastes and feelings of course- it would be a dull old world if we didn't!
I could not agree more, streaming has ruined hi-fi and music combined. I remember going to hi-fi shows about 10 or 12 years ago and seeing laptops instead of CD players. I knew then things has taken a turn for the worse, why stream when there are so many good CD players out there and CD's are relatively cheap!☹️
Excellent video - well said.
The idea that streaming is killing music is debatable tbh. I remember a similar campaign in the 80’s with vinyl album inserts proclaiming taping is killing music. It didn’t. In fact it helped spread music. If I taped something and it was good enough, I would buy it, and in terms of shifting physical units of LP’s CD’s & cassettes, the 80’s & 90’s are now considered a golden era for sales! The same applies today except streaming is the source. If the music is good enough, I buy it.
I first bought a Kenwood CD player in the late eighties and thought it was OK. I still listened to my vinyl mostly though as it gave a way better experinece. Then I bought a Rega Planet CD player and suddenly it all became alive. I still have that player and think it is still prety good.
I completely agree with you regarding the experinece of listening to an LP. I would spend hours with friends just sitting and listening to the latest from our favourite artists. Sometimes playing the same album two or three times in a row. Younger members of my family laugh at me when I tell them that.
I also really miss having a chat with the staff in a good record shop. I discovered many of my now favourite artists from recommendations of those guys. The demise of small, local record stores is a huge loss.
Somewhat silly Phil, but your the boss.
My streamer and associated streaming service has pushed the purchase of more physical albums in my collection than even before.
I personally rip my purchased albums to a network attached drive and use software to manage it all.
My Atoll ST200 streamer makes it so easy to access all my music. It has a beautiful internal DAC, internet radio radio, DLNA discovery with other devices, Tidal connect, etc.
Your poor customers don’t know what their missing.
Brian
A good music scanner and database makes a streamer. Generic DNLA is lousy and unusable.
@@johnsmith-i5j7i UPNP may be unusable for you, but works perfectly when having well implemented hardware.
Take care.
Great video. Thank you for sharing and expressing your opinion on streaming. While I don’t fully agree with you, your points on streaming are excellent. I do agree with the idea of owning your music. This is something I miss and is a downside to streaming. I’m in my late 60’s and starting a journey on two channel music. I currently only stream music, using Tidal and Roon as my music engines. Many decades ago I owned some decent audio equipment and as a result of that experience I have no nostalgia for vinyl. I still remember the ‘snap’, ‘crackle’ and ‘pop’ of vinyl when listening. Maybe someday I’ll revisit vinyl. I’ve enjoyed streaming because I do ignore the AI generated list of music I might like and deliberately try music genres I haven’t experienced. As an example, I never would have bought the Album “Kind of Blue” by Miles Davis. I recently found this album on Tidal and I gave it a listen. Wow…great experience. Loved the music. I’m now excited to try more and different types of jazz. I completely agree that the compensation model to artists is unfair. I can’t impact that business model. I recently attended a great audio show in Raleigh NC sponsored by Audio Advice. I was stunned as to the quality of the hardware as I was equally stunned as to the price! I can’t fathom spending $10,000 for a turntable and then finding out I need to spend another $5,000 for the needle! Streaming, as a way to engage with music in a cost effective manner, is probably the way I need to go in the short term. Again, great video. Loved hearing your opinions. Thank you.
I got rid of Spotify this year and started a vinyl collection. The cost is prohibitive. I've spent over a grand already so now I'm also collecting CDs.
I still keep my digital collection on my PC and phone, but now I add to that digital collection by ripping the CDs I buy.
I also sometimes try new music (to me) on UA-cam before buying the CD.
I like your videos. I'm 34. Also a massive thank you for your Rega TT servicing video and the oil I purchased. The £8 was a small price when you factor in the oil, the how to video and the nice little instruction slip included.
Now, how do I convince my Wife who uses Spotify that my physical media is not a waste of money?
Surprised you mentioned MQA, which is compressed, and not Qobuz which gives lossless high-res. There's also DSD which can be downloaded at a price.
I have thousand’s of vinyl albums but I couldn’t be doing with the background noise present with vinyl LPs. I do have a good turntable (SME + Koetsu) yes it can sound very good on some albums but I embraced digital because of the lack of clicks & pops, where as digital is quiet with no extraneous background noise.
Oh dear Phil 🙈
You are a quality guy , I’ve dealt with , I know you know you stuff .
But
Sorry mate , I was like you Anti streaming , now with an Eversolo A8 the quality via Tidal is excellent .
I can enjoy more music all kinds of music it’s all about the music , algorithms that recommend new stuff all the time without searching for the same old CDs
You went to the North West hi .Fi show ?
ATC room always good , great gear sensible money , the source was a streamer and so on many many rooms , there are some wonderful streamers these days ..It’s the future , your missing a trick
Best regards
Allan Whittle
Not just you Phil👍Fellow paid up Luddite here🙂Tommy Vance! love it. Never had a seperate Dac, or even a 'smartphone' and have never considered 'streamers'. 'No such thing as a free lunch.' Common sense if you like real tactile quality. Enjoy your music, and all the best to you and all of your viewers❤
I have a Cambridge Audio CXN streamer in my setup, however I have it purely as an 'internet radio'. I can listen to stations all over the world in excellent quality, but my music is still listened to and purchased on CD or vinyl...
over 5 million streams own 90% of the recording rights and I work in a supermarket !
You have to spend big money on the vinyl and streaming for it to sound good. Some vinyl sounds better than streaming and vice versa.
Agreed. A true high-end sound isn't accessible on a small budget, as much as many would like to think it is. It just isn't sadly, and it should be.... those who think it is, haven't heard what music reproduction is really capable of....
@@dirtharris Well said!! 🙂
It’s the opposite to my experience, as soon as you get , a good streaming service like Qobuz , Tidal is not as good and am glad mqa is gone.
Get a good resistor dac and a good high end streamer and feed it cd quality, or better , the sub bass is present un like records .. even good original pressings.
Disagree, that's for audiophiles who are obsessed with the tech probably more than the music. Buying a decent system for people's who budget is not "over the top" & enjoy the lyrics with the music rather than analysing every musical note is possible. A few months wage is more than enough to purchase a decent set up.
@@ENGLISHISBEST he means beyond a very basic, ok-ish vinyl set-up such as a Rega P3 with Elys cartridge.... but, on this, you will certainly get music with lyrics
Smaller artists make money by selling CD's at gigs. If they have an online presence such as UA-cam, CD, Track and album sales on-line n-line.
I remember seeing the Red Hot Chilli Peppers, Pearl Jam, and Soundgarden and Living Color amongst other for £12 a ticket in the mid 90s
I don't stream for four reasons: 1. the artists aren't paid enough, I buy CD's and downloads and I think that downloads sound as good as CD's 2. I listen mostly to classical music and Spotify etc don't have a proper way for searching the music. 3. there are many rare recordings that are not on the streaming services, also, they usually have the latest version, often 'remastered' one which are usually destroyed in the loudness war and I often like the first CD version better. 4. I am sure that soon the algorithms/bribery will push people more and more to the music the companies want you to listen to and block out any innovation. Can you imagine the Sex Pistols trying to get an audience right now? The same with local bands.
LP's are not for me anymore. When I hear a LP on a high end system I still miss the high resolving quality of a CD. My standard: A piano on a LP does not sound like a real piano, it lacks a lot of the rich overtones which you do hear on a CD.
LP’s in my system have exquisite timbre, tone, decay and absolutely kick derrière soundstage. But you are not going to get any of that with a mediocre turntable and 50 dollar cartridge, and bad loudspeakers.
I agree with what you saying. All magics lost
Agree with you Phil.will always prefer vinyl& cd.Okay there are issues,such as lasers/styli wearing out,but I prefer that to problems with internet connections.The only streaming system I heard that was A1 was a hideously ugly Wadax combo(£120,000 approx!!),even then I was still thinking a cd player or excellent tt would have been better at a fraction of the price.Stick to your guns,as I really believe if a lot of dealers were honest they would admit they are selling a retrograde format in terms of emotional involvement,but push it,as that is what so many tech slaves will only consider.
Your perfectly within your rights not selling streamers, but I’m afraid you can’t put the genie back in the bottle , there is some value to your points, supporting artists at local gigs is dying that’s really sad, I don’t have a answer sadly
An interesting listen thanks. I have a side shoot to the debate over the quality of different formats - most of my old records (LPs) from the late seventies and early eighties have gone AWOL over the decades for reasons that ultimately I have to take the blame for. However, my question is, what should I replace them with, a new, sealed, modern pressing on 180g vinyl from my local record store, or a decent condition original pressing found at a record fair, charity shop, etc. Assuming the forty year old pressing is in excellent condition, and all other things being equal, and cost not being a factor, which is likely to be the more entertaining listen…? Could be a topic for another talk, perhaps…
Spotify playlist I've created in the car or when I'm writing. For proper listening, vinyl or occasionally CD
The problem with the main stream streaming services is - Spotify, Tidal and the like - that if you have a wide range of musical tastes you are pretty knackered. Especially for classical and jazz. I don't wan to listen to "Cool Jazz" I want to listen to John Coltrain !!!
You seem like a good person. I am surprised at this video, it reveals your ignorance towards the truth. Vinyl, Digital, Streaming....it's all about the mastering. Please don't behave like this, you are a better human.....
Compressed music i dont like it a good cd transport destroys streaming
PS, I have noticed that with now buying higher quality equipment that the original recordings do make a massive difference in my ability to enjoy the music . My older less sophisticated record player in my teens made everything sound the same whether a good recording or bad and so it was a level,playing field in a perverse way . With higher quality systems , those less good recordings by some “ GarageBands” of the 70s sound pretty rough , even listening to the Velvet Underground first album wasn’t so good as it once did . Maybe letting Andy Warhol,produce it wasn’t such a good idea , still a genius record though . I think with streaming they reproduce a lot of the older music and clean it up a lot , often too much until it can sound sterile . Music for AI .
This trend also unfortunately shapes the music culture and production. Rick Beato has extensively discussed it.
Hi, I have a close friend who used to play drums in a band who played the start and end tunes for the John Lennon Old Grey whistle test TV show back in the day.
He would totally agree with you. He had to move to Berlin to support German bands and fill his spare time with taxi driving to make a living.
As for your quality argument, I'm not so sure. It seems to me from experience that perhaps due to lack of money, a lot less effort is put into recording the band/orchestra and the mixing.
Sometimes, it can sound like they only used one Mike, and someone was sitting on it at the time of recording.
I have NAIM equipment just for the record, but i would like to give you one example. Chris Rea The Road to Hell album. I started to play it on CD with no problems, and so I thought that I would make a comparison with the streamed version. I was shocked by how thin the music sounded. On further investigation, it turned out that this was the American mix. Even track 4, although having the same name was a different tune. I then went from TIDAL to Spotify Conect and found that their version sounded on comparison better than my CD. It seems to be very much a case of potluck. The biggest outcome for me was that for all their claims, TIDAL wasn't all that they were made up to be.
i would buy more CD's but being retired in Thailand you can not find them.
Thanks for the video. I’m confused though: are you refusing to stock a streamer on principled grounds, or is this stand against digital music generally? If the latter I’d have to say it’s a hard sell for me: the lossless file is the same whether from a rip or a digital store, no? Audio snobbery is not my bag.
I’m a streamer but I’ve started buying CDs again as well. I personally don’t hear enough of a difference from my CD album vs the streamer version, it’s certainly close. However, I agree with all your points otherwise, we can’t lose music and physical media preserves it from a collection standpoint, and pays the artist properly. I believe streaming has to be overhauled to protect against music suffering, in the same way film is not taking risks because they don’t make enough money from streaming.
It's OK if your a massive sales volume shifter like Taylor Swift. Legacy acts & writers will have benefited from streaming as old tracks appear on playlists.
I prefer vinyl - BUT streaming enables me to try out recommended albums that are written about in the hifi magazines - and it's even better when they're by artists I've never heard of. There's no way I could afford to do that with new records at £25 a shot just to try them out. Then if I find a 'new' artist that I discover I like, THEN I'll seek it out on vinyl.
Hey Phil, this was a great video, thank you for uploading it. I live on the other side of the world in Seattle in the US but I am lucky enough to live near a long time Naim dealer called Hawthorne Stereo. The people there are amazing, so grateful they took the time to teach me to hear what good hifi gear can do. Listening to records on my Roksan Xerxes 20 plus (with Naim olive NAC 72/Hicap/NAP 250 through Audio Physic speakers) is really effortlessly captivating. Just on another level from any digital I have heard. A level where you really want to be present, and you're not thinking about what to play next or spacing out in any way (except the kind of emotional/imaginative engagement really great music inspires). When you say in this video that you can't have a record going in the background when you are doing something else because you keep getting drawn into the music, that chimes perfectly with my own experience. Thanks also for your opinion about streamers in general, and for mentioning high end Naim streamers in particular, which are supposed to be among the best. Not sure of my next step for the system, but I had been considering getting on the Naim streamer ladder. That or buying a used Naim CD player--CDS2 or 3 or CD555. But I have heard that even the best CD replay may not approach what I am hearing from the Xerxes. Now that I have heard your input on streamers, I will probably stick with my Primare for now, which I like a lot, though it is not compelling in the way listening to records is. Probably I will go all in on analog and get a Superline with Supercap for the Roksan--though going to take a while to save for that! Cheers and thank you again for your channel.
I think you are describing a personality type rather than how people listen to music. I have seen people clean their homes, while playing vinyl as well as CDs and although I didn’t think they were listening, they were dancing, cleaning, cooking and could quote massive amounts of knowledge from the lyrics and the natural flow of the music. I don’t have this skill.
I was once told music could be both a motivation or a depressant. I do respect your reason behind not selling streamers and although I do stream, I prefer physical medium and use streaming to discover new music and if I luv it I will buy the album or cd.
I also use streaming as a way to avoid garbage one, two or no hit albums. I have also heard a few CD players, especially with tubes inside that also can command your attention like an Audio Research cd7, cd8 and cd9 among others, who don’t use tubes like Rega.
I listen to a lot of music on UA-cam , with the computer connected to a stereo system . The sound can be surprisingly good through a quality amp , DAC , and speakers , but anything I especially like I'll buy on CD anyway . Unfortunately , the sound quality of a lot of older recordings transferred to CD is indifferent to downright poor , which hardly encourages me to buy them . I won't be going the streaming route though , because I can't be assed to research equipment choice or to spend even more money on it
You said recently that you never read the comments. Such a shame. I didn't realise how poor early CD players were until i bought a marantz CD 6005 player. Streaming definitely lacks soul. I suppose it will get better but until artists are paid what they are worth I wont be streaming. Vinyl still reigns supreme.
You make some good points about distraction with screens in your hand when operating streaming devices, and also about artists being ripped off by streaming services. But I just don’t think you’ve listened to streaming set ups that are done with the right gear in the right way, and the right hands and speakers and rooms to bring the music to life in full as much as it ever was with vinyl.
I agree with you but most vinyl is second hand with zero going back to artists. I agree about the rest of it. Especially people who think that streaming is music instead of just pixelated noise. I stepped back into vinyl, after being in cd land for years. It was a Rega player and it goodish, but I bought cheap Audio Technica turntable to experiment what I was missing and now plan to leap to a Rega 6
I don’t agree that most vinyl purchases are second hand. I only listen to vinyl and buy only new records, at least one new record a week. Please have a look, there is some amazing music being released every day.
I have a bluMe Pro, sub $200 usd, Bluetooth streamer that I use to clean house and DEMO music I am interested in. It is either for domestic chores or to play musical detective.
You just have to change from rock to jazz, then it not so expensive to go to a concert.
The local hi-fi gang with whom I associate, with the exception of one, listen almost exclusively via streaming. It’s a bit sad. There’s one who listens to a lot of vinyl so in that I take comfort. I do stream, but don’t think I will ever invest in “serious” streaming gear. My serious listening is vinyl where the only distraction may be reading the liner notes.
Another quick point that you make about the challenge...Think about CD, people popped the CD into the player, sat back and listened. Some early kit did sound a little hard and brittle, but others sounded Superb, The Sony CD101....Brittle, time shared DAC. The Philips CD100, Lovely, mechanical, slow, but DUAL DACS, dedicated per channel and with over sampling. Comparing to LP's, which were very interactive and interesting, a Joy to use and to listen to and see playing the discs gracefully, CD was too easy. Don't Blame digital, as there were already hundreds of titles that were released on LP that were Digitally recorded and mixed! 16 bit, 44.1 or 50KHz sampled.
Interactivity is key, it is part of the challenge to use enthusiasts, but what made it super successful, was the ease and convenience for the masses, and quickly portability. Like Cassettes. LP's were all we had for years, there wasn't a choice until Philips, along with Sony's support, innovation and Excellence brought us the Cassette and the CD. Make things too easy and those that appreciate the challenge and involvement, lose some of that joy.
You're just used to distortion with records. That's it.
mmmmm gig price has put me off alot of bands etc.. chris Stapleton cheap seats 167 quid, no thank you
I mainly stream, I have to say it’s totally engaging and massively enjoyable, I also use CD for an offline alternative very similar in presentation just a little more detail, records for me are to maintenance heavy to take on.
We have Spotify they have up the rate. I am now disabled but my kids are not that interested in my my old record collection or cds. My youngest kid dances about if it’s got a beat
Talking about streaming, need at least cd quality in the stream.
However I also used to listen to cassette a lot back in the early 90s in the car, cassette quality is rough at best but a good convenience.
Yes often I'll hear a track & comment on it in 2 cafes I use before work. Speakers are fed by a streamer via a phone. Staff rarely know whats playing or the artist as no announcer unlike radio 🙄
Streaming quality and how people get paid are two different things.
Give me reel to reel and a nakamichi cassette deck and a valve amp and vinyl not digital crap 💩
Just to add I dont stream but have every other format it depends on your mood, I dont stream but have a few thousand albums on hi-res as well as vinyl & cds, its whatever floats your boat at the time.
Best way to discover new material is the radio. Costs nowt.
I love vinyl but some of the recordings are very poor for a premium product i never stream music because as Phil says the artist gets nowt
Streaming is good to see if an album is any good, if you like it then buy it . Can save you money .
We have so much older music on streaming services, do we really need any new music at all.
I experienced this at a hifi dealer using streaming to demonstrate speakers and amps they never finished a track kept swapping listen to this one then this one. I left with a headache..
Excellent points!!
I’m only interested in physical media. I love the inconvenience and storage space lost to my collection lol. Seriously, there are lots of good reasons why physical media is best overall.
I also think KISS philosophy plays a part here.
I agree with your main point - the business model for streaming is unsustainable - there is nothing in it for the artist. The artists have to be compensated for their endeavours.
I also agree with your other points but I think that may be my age! I have a now aging mid fi system and must say the newest component, a Cambridge streamer, sounds quite good.
Get your point about lack of involvement but that’s getting really philosophical.
Heard of people who sold their CDs, invested in streaming, then regretted it.
i think in a first for me i agree with all you said lol
I've been living abroad in a rented flat for 13 years leaving behind my traditional system (TT/CD/Cassette/Tuner) and feel that the streaming explosion has passed me by. Out here I have a DVD player for CDs but no TT. I now have a 'streamer' - well an Amazon Echo Dot that doubles up as an alarm clock. I use it for background music rather than CD because I'd need a CD multiplayer for the length of time I need stuff in the background. I don't fancy investing in another format - another grumpy old Luddite - and will hopefully return home permanently soon to spend more time listening to my classic system.
I stream music on the go and in the car, rarely at home. I agree that the relationship with music streaming is a very different experience- skipping tracks after a a minute or two and an impatience attached to the process. There is no doubt streaming is cost effective- you have access to the worlds biggest juke box- all that music just a couple of clicks away. That is mind blowing when you think about it- my 12 year old self would be awestruck at that prospect. I do agree that the thrill of chase- visiting all the local record stores on a Saturday was a ritual and going on holiday visiting a new town or city was always exciting- first stop was the record stores. The adrenaline rush at discovering "gold" was better than sex. The internet kinda ruined that and it became the drunken shopping experience late at night on Amazon and the surprise when a load of discs started to arrive as you had no memory of buying them!
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Good Video Phil
I have been collecting gear for over 40 years
I agree the streamers are convenient but to rig one up as a main central sonic focus point is rather cumbersome.
I had a lot of gear and still have and also make Music to.
Hi Res is exactly like You mentioned and I am glad that You nailed it.
Its so devoid of distortion and such that its actual quality is very linear and dark in that it lacks life.
Everything today they try and push as something to do with resolution being the main goal and side stepping the actual components that are in the chain like power supply's and circuit topology.
They are trying to get something out of nothing in a virtual platform instead of a physical medium one thats dedicated.
I see some Hi end systems and in the middle of the photo is some sort of streaming device which really narks Me.
Its like when You see a decent audio rig and in the middle of it is a large flat screen TV which dictates the entire presentation and extremely detracting.
I had some really rare items Phil and still own them and will never ever sell them because I know I will never be able to equal or beat there sonic attributes.
A lot of the Younger generation have never known what it was like to do trial and error on a buying basis which is an awful shame.
If anything when these Streamers are pumped into even a medium quality system there flaws are drawn out.
I also design Hi-fi from time to time to and have many concepts I would love to make.
Great video and thoughts Phil.
Many Thanks Sir.
What about digital radio
Agree with everything!
MQA is a solution looking for a problem in my opinion. As for hi res files well what you have to take into account is that the vast majority of original recordings are on analogue audio tape so no matter how high res the file is it will only be as good as the original analogue master tape, you cannot magically improve it. CD and vinyl sound different as one is producing sound by dragging a rock through 20 pence worth of plastic and the other uses noughts and ones. Which you prefer is a personal choice rather than a technical choice.