Thanks to Matt's Fantasy Book Reviews contribution to this discussion. I would encourage everyone to watch Matt's video to gain a better understanding of his arguments! ua-cam.com/video/T2cu0B0I4Zg/v-deo.htmlsi=zrLPaKjPpDk3XOqs
Thanks for the nuanced discussion! I hope you don't get offended by my "AI generated content" comment because it wasn't directed towards you. It was directed at the half dozen other videos that spawned immediately after yours that felt like a carbon copy of your video.
Haha, no, I wasn't offended mate! Thanks for making the original video! I hope I didn't offend you in anyway in this response video. I tried my best to highlight my disagreements in a respectful way and hope that came across. All the best!
@@libraryofaviking Your all good, definitely not offended in the slightest! I work in politics, and am married. Having disagreements is basically my life :)
Did you know, there were about x4 more fantasy books published over 2010-2020 than over the whole 80s & 90s combined! I feel like both arguments have merit, but i feel like we are just seeing ALOT more diverse fantasy, there are just as many (if not more) epic fantasy books coming out, but there are no longer the main type of fantasy book published. They are there, just harder to find. A very complex issue, and i hope it prompts people to look further and find those unsung epic fantasy gems!
I think the crux of the argument is that, if you want to write a fantasy series with Sanderson's worldbuilding complexity (with the corresponding wordcount) and you're not Sanderson, you're not getting traditionally published. Not in this economy. Not until who knows when. If that means epic fantasy is dying then it's a matter of debate. The argument of epic fantasy not needing huge wordcounts is the most interesting one, since there are other subgenres (urban, portal, sword and sorcery) where this is definitely the case, but with epic is much more complex.
I think you pretty much nailed it! There is definitely an argument to be made that limiting the word count might lead to authors becoming more creative which might be a long-term good thing! We will have to wait and see!
I think one of the main things here is societal trends greater than fantasy itself - which is the increasing fragmentation and digitization of culture. Which makes big business less likely to serve certain markets, something of which has happened in every entertainment industry. It doesn't necessarily mean that the form is dying - it's a service issue. Which is such a shame for those of us who aren't interested in the mass market forms of the present day. Even worse when you're not accessing something like self-publishing, which is where underserved creators have to go. Romantasy and cozy lit have been fueled by Tiktok... people forget that these are still also niches/subgenres, just like epic fantasy, regardless of how immediately exploitable they are by the modern business model. I take umbrage with people trying to turn it into a culture war, as if certain forms of art should be elevated because of whatever social trends and politics of the past have done. It's a chicken and egg thing - if you want women and minorities to make more epic fantasy, the form has to be accessible. If it didn't entice those demographics in the past, of course the work salient in the cultural zeitgeist will have been produced by the people most directly inspired by it. You can have both epic fantasy, romantasy, and everything else existing at the same time. It's not an either-or outside of whatever limitations capitalism is placing on it. Anyway, this whole discussion reminds me a lot of both movies and AAA gaming, which I think are great reference points for the monetary dynamics and how consumers are losing out in the end. The big statements attract interest, but the core problem is being decided from the top - businesses don't see something as profitable enough, so they don't want to invest in it. Which makes it less accessible to people, so of course people have less investment in it themselves. It's rather cynical, but take AAA publishers trying to tell us things like horror and single-player games are dead while making no effort to create good products in those categories. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. (Edit - forgot to mention the modern attention span and information bombardment, which was where I was headed before getting distracted. Has to make long-form investments a tougher sell than ever)
Interesting comment and agree that it is a service issue! It sounds like you should have a channel as well since you are good at articulating your points!
Still watching, but I completely agree with your response to claim 2! Epic fantasy doesn’t *have* to be long, but it’s unfortunate that authors who do who want to write long books are currently being told to limit their word count
Great video and this discussion has been so interesting to follow! I don't think epic fantasy will ever die but longer fantasy series do seem to be taking a backseat for a bit
Great video, mate! If there's anything to hope from this discussion, whichever argument/deduction is correct or wrong, it is that for more people reading epic fantasy beyond the already famous names. As I said, despite the state it is now, I have no doubt traditional epic fantasy (maybe even grimdark?) will return stronger! 😁
I think that a video doing a statistical analysis as to how many epic fantasy are being published by debut authors year on year, as well as epic fantasy books being published overall by each of the biggest epic fantasy publishers in the UK and the US. I think this might be the best way to reduce the back and forth between separate booktube channels, because it'll be difficult for subjective opinions to argue against statistical evidence.
yeah I find it weird that people are saying that this information is inaccessible, there are trade magazines that cover those statistics. Since they are for professionals they tend to be pricy, but yeah this is not something that needs to be speculated on, people can for sure find out sales numbers. Its not a secret.
A lot of what you're talking about is technically abductive reasoning but that's a quibble. As a trad published author of a debut fantasy novel, I call tell you that your claims are valid. Generally speaking, publishers are NOT interested in 100,000+ word novels, don't want to hear about long series plans, and so forth. King of the Forgotten Darkness is only 96k and my publisher initially still asked me to trim it. You are simply not going to publish a long book (which epic fantasy commonly needs to feel satisfying), unless your name rhymes with Frandon Jamberson. So, yeah, I think the genre is suffering. Great video, as usual, love your content!
random fact gathering questions so I can situate you in my mind with a lot of other peoples' experiences: What publisher, and where were you on the Low/mid/high list end of things?
I'll repeat a point I made on Patrick's original video that I think it is about the packaging and pricing: It makes sense that when people pay for "books" and not "words" that authors (both indy and trad) will be encouraged to publish more short books than fewer long books since the ROI per time is going to be a lot better for 5 60K books than 1 300K book. If you were paid per word, or per time it takes to consume, you could have many more chunky books. But when you don't, the safer bet is the shorter books. The other problem with longer series (in terms of number of books), is the natural audience for each further book in your series is generally a subset of those who have read the earlier books. Now if the earlier books were super popular (like a Harry Potter or Hunger Games or Twilight or something) then that built in audience is great. But if the earlier books were not as popular, that may make book 3, 4, 5, etc. harder to motivate/market. You could get lucky and if book 3 or 4 or whatever ends up a huge success you push more readers to the backlist and refresh the interest in book 1, 2, etc., but usually book 1 will have more readers than book 2, book 2 more than book 3, and so on. I mean arguably this chain of sequence is impacting even things like Marvel movies where some people are not as interest as they feel they've missed some movies or TV series or some of the relatively loose continuity that these have. A densely epic fantasy series may be even harder to pick and choose from (although something like wider Cosmere or Vorkosigan Saga does a pretty good job of allowing one to skip or read out of order without too much impact so far). So put these together and you get an effort to have shorter rather than longer books, and to be skeptical about too many promises for multi-book series (at least until the series is proven a hit). As a reader, I prefer multibook series for at least a couple of reasons: If it is multibook, that likely mean it is good enough to be worth multiple books; If I like it, that means there is more content to consume. But the very worst IMO is to have multibook series that clearly need more books but that might not be finished. That trend that happens to TV shows (Netflix especially, but others too) really hurts the ability to invest in more complex narratives in these shows/stories. A trend in the book world to shorter books so that an epic story might be lots of short books instead of few long ones could work, but also runs the risk of a higher chance of a series ending incomplete. Take something like the Dandelion Dynasty. There are interviews where Ken Liu describes the series as "like one very long book"). Could it still be an epic story when it is one long book published as 4 very long books? Would it also work if it were published as something like 20 short books in one series? There are chapters or sections or significant events that could be somewhat natural break points for books, but cutting it up to fine might cause problems as each book wouldn't necessarily have a satisfactory ending point, so it would likely be more a packaging decision than a true book on its own.
An important truth to remember is that there are trends in publishing. Trends come and go. The current boom in epic fantasy thanks to the proximate publication of ASOIAF Book 5 and the last full novel by Patrick Rothfuss. HBO also boosted sales thanks to their miniseries. Since than many years have passed, there's been a printing crunch, a paper shortage, a pandemic, and global turmoil. All these factors contribute to marketplace changes. Fantasy isn't going away. Just like the end of the big boom in horror which ended abruptly at the sawn of the nineties contraction is occurred. But there will be more books in your favorite genre. Relax. It'll be OK.
I personally agree more with Matt but I also really appreciated these clarifications and the encouragement of more discourse about these topics! I love Romantasy and fantasy, and honestly, I think with new terms in publishing every day it feels like, people are bound to get confused trying to define them. Like, the same thing with cozy fantasy. Anyway, I think we just have to be careful not to marginalize female fantasy writers, and we have to encourage and promote all fantasy. Some Romantasy leans more romance, some leans more epic fantasy, and you don’t know til you read them.
I am not the biggest “romantasy fan” you could say but it feels like an attack on women readers in fantasy coming into the genre but then saying now that “romantasy” is not epic fantasy when that is simply not true. To me it feels like the same vibe as devaluing twilight for example just because women and young girls like it en masse
He didn't say anything about women at all though. Disliking things like twilight or sjm can in fact be taste and not sexism. As a woman, I (often) dislike these popular romance/romantasy books because the authors and/or the content are extremely toxic. Which wouldn't matter as much to me, if they weren't continuously marketed towards very young, impressionable girls, and it also gets annoying when your whole fyp is full with people telling you it's the single handedly greatest thing ever written just to end up feeling very wattpad. (Coming from someone who used to enjoy e.g twilight and sjm in her teens andkeeps on trying out romantasy here and there) Now, there is nothing wrong with (especially adult) people enjoying their time with these books, getting excited over these characters and worlds etc. But the number one argument against criticism conerning many romantasy works continues to be "oh you just hate women". And I get it How many times as a young girl has an uncle or male teacher smirked or rolled theor eyes at my choice of book? And if I read something they deemed "high quality" would be surprised that "someone like me" would even know of xyz. And there are their fair share of men like that on the internet. But when someone is just talking about own personal taste, and bringing up valid arguments while also not mentioning women in any sort of derogatory way, I find it incredibly disheartening to see the "it's sexism" response.
I am a woman. My e-reader is bursting with romantasy because I never give up hope of finding something interesting for me. Emily Wilde's Encyclopaedia of Faeries is one of my favorite series. But I can't help the fact that Fourth Wing is dumb. I can't bring myself to admire books like this just because women write them if I think they're stupid and I can't read more than three paragraphs without rolling my eyes at its illogicality and sheer nonsense. The same goes for fantasy written by men. I hate The Dark Elf Trilogy by R. A. Salvatore with passion. I never tire of making fun of it every time I get the chance.
@@booksandhappiness432 certainly not to make any accusations, hopefully you don't perceive them, but i often see the sexism response be loaded in a different way than usually expected. i'll see proclaimed feminists saying that books have to be a certain way, lest we as women be seen as lesser, and it becomes a very counter-productive mindset somehow. there can definitely be a vague argument made for "protecting the children", but the onus of a strong moral compass should be on parents and not on media. those with a compass can digest media and take it with a grain of salt much better. but, further, the moral compass can look different from one's own and still be okay. not to say anything about you, but i'll often see people saying that romantasy books are "trashy and unhealthy because it's all harems and BDSM and smut and women need to be more clean than that because otherwise we wont be respected." however, people who perpetuate that clean image of women are the people who make women like me prefer the unclean image. i'm not who you tell me to be, and i'm fine how i am. i'm still a woman fit for respect, and any girl who grows up to love these things for any reason should still be respected. conditional respect of anyone based on anything so harmless as entertainment is a little... meh.
This is a great (and important) discussion. I love both of your channels and enjoyed both viewpoints. I don't feel there's any definitive answer to this question, but the discussion likely puts more eyes on more epic fantasy, which is a great thing!
It seems like most of the people angry at you in this comment section are mad because they feel the need to defend romantasy as a form of literature. I think you are right about most of what you said in this video, but the argument needs to be reframed. The publishing industry has always been chasing trends one way or another. Right now that trend is romantasy, so of course that’s being favored over everything else by publishers. People can love or hate that, but I think the real issue is that publishers HAVE to do stuff like this to make money. They want guarantees that people are going to buy something because not enough people are buying books! It’s an obvious observation, but it’s true. The only way they will publish more epic fantasy is if there is a higher demand for it. Anyway, people need to stop being so mad and defensive. We all want the same thing here, guys!
I wish Romantasy was a subgenre of Romance instead of Fantasy. If the industry standard focused on fewer words and emphasized romance, it would encourage authors to develop the romantic elements more deeply while cutting back on the fantasy aspects.
100% agree, the average reader of Fourth Wing is far more likely to also read Colleen Hoover than they are George Martin. Romantasy is by and large not written for fantasy fans.
Yes, and often at times I feel like the fantasy aspect of romantasy is often used as an aesthetic which is why it's easy to find holes and aspects of it that don't make sense.
@@ozharmounian8497Yeah, um… I read and loved Fourth Wing. The only Colleen Hoover book I read I literally threw in the trash when I was done. There is zero crossover appeal. People who read Colleen Hoover tend to not like fantasy at all, and vice versa. Romantasy is where the romance and the fantasy aspects are equal in terms of plot space given. It’s cool to hate on Fourth Wing because it blew up so much so fast, but there is quite a lot of Romance Fantasy/Fantasy Romance that reads nothing like Fourth Wing, but still have the hallmarks of epic fantasy. (i.e. the grand scale, the huge cast of characters, the multi POV, the political machinations, quests, magical items and fantasy creatures.) For reference i love Sanderson, Tolkien, Eddings, McClellan, and many other men who write epic fantasy. Romantasy can often be very epic.
100% agree with this ! I love Epic Fantasy and Romantasy and even plain old Romance and definitely agree it should be a sub genre of Romance. Doesn't take away from the fantasy element of those books but really they don't compare to epic fantasy
I think publishers want less niche and more universal. Long word counts, 9393993 book series-- that doesn't appeal to the average reader or to literary readers, and publishers are trying to get book into as many people's hands as possible. I dont think it means the genre is dying, just that it's changing. 😊
I wanted to see what AI would say to your premise. Therefore, I asked the AI: "Is epic fantasy dying?" AI's Answer: "Not at all! Epic fantasy remains a vibrant and beloved genre in literature. While trends may ebb and flow, epic fantasy continues to captivate readers with its rich world-building, intricate plots, and compelling characters. Authors like Brandon Sanderson, Patrick Rothfuss, N.K. Jemisin, and many others continue to produce bestselling epic fantasy novels, and new voices are constantly emerging in the genre. Additionally, epic fantasy has found new life in other media, such as television and film, with adaptations like "Game of Thrones" and "The Witcher" series drawing large audiences. So, rather than dying, epic fantasy seems to be evolving and expanding its reach across different platforms and audiences."
It is really nice to see discourse between two decently sized figures that isn't just shit flinging. I appreciate you both. I think you both make good points though. Mike's key point in his video especially about Romantasy being a gateway into different (not necessarily better) is a great point to make. I would have never read Lord of the Rings if it wasn't for Peter Jackson's adaption. I would have never read Stormlight Archive if I didn't read Lord of the Rings. I would have never discovered Booktube without reading Stormlight Archive. And lastly, I would not have read Sun Eater without Booktube. Everything each person does is a gateway and I really think the more people pickup what most of us deem, inferior, or ineffectual Romantasy books, the more publishers will want to work to establish bigger series' again. Even so. I think the biggest problem in fantasy is size. Lord of the Rings is three books that are in total a single Stormlight Archive book in length. I don't think I need to spell out what the issue is.
wait no spell that out, i thought LoTR was a decent size. i've not read basically any widely-acclaimed(lack of better word) books so i dont have a physical reference for that but... at the very least I figured that they were standard. is Stormlight Archive like... over a thousand pages?????
J maas has massive books with a vastly (imho) exaggerated wordcounts. But her books are romantisy right? I dont think the focus on a declining wc in books has anything to do with epic fantasy. It just doesnt make any sense.
Big author names will always get exceptions. It is the debut and smaller authors that are hurting by this limitation. I don't have any insights into how many authors have been asked to limit their word count but Mike Shackle, Peter McLean and E.L Lam were told to write fewer words.
@@libraryofaviking yeah but how many of those exceptions are there? I remember writing fantasy 10 years ago and debut authors got way lower wordcounts back then too - even J K Rowling. You can see how her first book is a lot shorter than the rest of them. Maximum 100k words for debuts, even 90k or 75k I heard back then. So Why is it surprising now? :/ Maybe the thing you thought to be normal, (giving a debut 120K words) was never really normal, only an exception.
I appreciate your careful, nuanced response to the backlash from your previous video. I also appreciate how kind, and careful you are about your response. It amazes me how butt hurt people still are despite how clear and careful you are with your counter arguments. You are definitely more careful than Matt. One thing I would like to say about romantasy is that, yes, some works can also be considered epic fantasy by definition. That said, most of them are not. It’s rather like how all golden retrievers are dogs, but most dogs are not golden retrievers. It’s just a small niche of the romantasy sub-genre that even qualifies for this discussion, so all the people getting their feathers ruffled, are doing so over a small issue. The only truly powerhouse name in romantasy that can also be considered epic fantasy is Sarah J. Maas (powerhouse being defined as many people knowing about the author and their works outside of the author’s fan base). Maybe an argument can be made for Rebecca Yarros because of Fourth Wing, but she doesn’t have that many romantasies under her belt yet. Anyway, the point is, if you ask the average person what they consider to be epic fantasy, and which authors write epic fantasy, I guarantee almost none of them will mention a romantasy series or author. This may change in the future, because romantasy is booming in popularity, and there will certainly be authors whose works are technically both sub-genres. Today is not that day though. Most people still separate epic fantasy and romantasy in their heads. Heck, most people don’t recognize romantasy as a sub-genre of fantasy at all, and just see it as romance in general. Regardless of whether the traditional epic fantasy genre seems to be dying or not, I would say, read what you love. There is plenty out there to choose from in every genre and sub-genre imaginable. Who knows, maybe there will be an epic fantasy renaissance at some point, where traditional epic fantasy will make a come back. Maybe not. Maybe it will evolve into something new. We’ll see.
This is a nice comment. I tried really hard to be fair and respectful but appreciate it is impossible to please everyone. Thanks for the commenting and watching ☺️
If we’re honest… has Epic Fantasy ever been alive? Hasn’t it always been something just us nerds think about? 😬 You and Petrik are definitely right though. But I’d say it’s not so much dying rather than being in a bit of a slump, when it comes to traditional publishing. It’s definitely true that in all media, not only books, publishers are favouring “short form”. So obviously, a long epic series doesn’t fit that. However, I do believe this is something that’s always evolving and won’t always be the case. I’m actually quite hopeful. When I read all these amazing books by incredibly talented authors as Ryan Cahill, Daniel T. Jackson, Philip C. Quaintrell, Joao F. Silva,… just to name a few, I’m quite confident we’ll be fine. Of course, it’s not traditional publishing, but as I said, that’s an ever evolving thing. In any case, it’s up to us to share these hidden gems and support new/indie authors. We’ve got the authors and the readers. Whatever happens to the publishing industry, Epic Fantasy is here to stay! 😁 PS: I’m sure publishing will settle down at some point and things will become more stable for our beloved authors!
This has been a fascinating discussion. I think the underlying issue is that traditional publishing in general--regardless of genre, is in trouble. Barnes and Noble, the largest US retailer, has been struggling for years. Print runs for books have gotten smaller and smaller, even for popular authors, for a couple of decades or more. Amazon saw the trend early on and diversified quickly--first into DVDs, and then eventually into everything. I don't think epic fantasy is dying--I think publishing is on the precipice of monumental change, and has been for many years. More people are writing fantasy now than ever have, and technology has made it much easier (but still hard) to get published than ever. Trad publishing is still figuring out its place in this modern high tech world.
@@libraryofaviking Thanks for the recommendation but I have another idea for a video make a video about Top ten upcoming fantasy book sequels which you are most excited or everyone is so hyped about it like Stormlight archive book 5 please reply your thoughtss
I said it in Matt's comments, and I'll say it in yours: NEITHER of you define your terms, with frankly Matt being a bit smug about it. Just saying Fourth Wing is Epic fantasy doesn't make it so. I would call it Serial High Fantasy, and, since neither of you make a case for it actually being Epic Fantasy, my assessment stands as equally valid. It's High Fantasy; I win. Into the dustbin of Fantasy history, Horny Dragon Book!
You maintain that epic fantasy and romantasy are separate, or at least that people read them for separate reasons. As someone who reads both and has been reading both for decades (romantasy is newly popular but not actually a new subgenre!), I feel qualified to state that is not the case for many of us. Warbreaker by Brandon Sanderson fits the definition of romantasy. It is fantasy with a strong romance storyline which is completely central to the main plot. The only difference honestly is how it is marketed. It's one of my favourite books and that comes equally from the epic fantasy and romance parts of the novel.
I really appreciate you sharing your view and I will definitely take this into consideration going forward. It is an interesting point regarding Warbreaker because I never considered Warbreaker romtantasy but it would probably qualify (and maybe even marketed) as romantasy if it was published today! Thanks for your comment! Definitely giving me some food for thought!
Uh… no. I don’t think Warbreaker counts as Romantasy for several reasons. 1: The primary focus of the book is not on the couple in question. It is telling that most of the interactions between the two take place behind closed doors and off page. In fact, if it was romantasy the main POVs would have been the couple, not the girl and her sister. Oh, and the god who doesn’t take himself or anything seriously. 2: There is little to no focus on the characters’ romantic feelings. They don’t talk about how hot their love interest is, there are no sparks, and no pining or romantic tension. 3: There is little to no discussion about the romance between them by characters outside of the couple in question. The most you get is that the sister is surprised that they care so much for each other at the end of the book. Basically, all the hallmarks of traditional romance and romantasy are just not there. Warbreaker is epic fantasy with a romantic subplot.
@@annmoore321To your point 1: there are fantasy romances that are closed doors. Most of Ilona Andrews' books are closed doors and Half a Soul by Olivia Atwater is a regency romantasy that is closed doors. Also, there are many romantasy books that do not have both couples as the POVs. Some of them have 5-6 POVs. For example, Lady of Darkness series or the Everflame series. To your point 2: I hate it when books focus on the hotness of the love interest in general, and I tend to not enjoy those as much. So there are some out there that don't have that as a focus. Radiance is a great example because the 2 love interests thinks the other is ugly. There are no sparks between them. They learn to love each other because of their personalities and grow closer out of mutal respect. To your point 3: That happens a lot in so many books that there are too many examples to give you. Personally, I hate the term romantasy because it's just a TIkTok and marketing creation to get more clicks, views, etc. Fantasy is fantasy and some of romance and some don't, just like other fiction genres.
@@natcommon You make fair points, but I still disagree. Partially because when I said closed doors, I didn’t just mean lime and lemon content. I meant all the intimate moments like when they confess their love, the smoldering looks, and all that stuff. The point is that the romance is the CENTER focus of the plot. In that sense, Half A Soul, regardless of the lack of physical intimacy, is very obviously romantasy. Also the romance must be the MAIN aspect of the plot that brings readers to the table to qualify as romantasy. And the love birds must be the MAIN points of view regardless of how many others there are in a series. I’m willing to bet that is the case with the other series you mentioned. And if it’s not… Is it possible that those series have been erroneously classified as romantasy simply because the author is female? Food for thought. What I’m saying is, a romantic subplot does not a romantasy make. If you’re going to argue that I’m wrong, then Wheel of Time and The Lord of the Rings are romantasy. And I have never heard anyone refer to them as such.
you're right. Im a very eclectic reader and read everything and anything. Mixing genres and tropes are good, fun. Marketing however, is an entire different beast. I mean even Lord of the rings has romance in it so, should we call it crossover lit? However, if the main character is female, especially if the author is also female, it just seems like the work will be called more romance and less epic fantasy. Which is really annoying. People are, as usual, very biased. It being romance is also another reason to just say that the quality is lacking. Fantasies that tend to favor female readers are framed as more silly, compared to the ones that favor male readers that are framed as more "realist" or even, (sadly, usually) "realistic". The whole epic fantasy vs romance and fantasy are not really different genres used in academia to describe fantasy either. Its a very new and rather blunt concept. And it seems to be shaped as a form of... "true fantasy" vs "girls fantasy" in how the discourse takes its shape. It just seems like there is this bitterness among fantasy readers - that more young girls today read books, and less boys read books. And there is no real will to fix this issue - instead people are just... bashing at the stuff that the girlreaders tend to like instead. Like fix illiterasy among boys instead - that's the real issue.... or learn to see the epic in female literature too?
You know what the problem is? People unwiling to call Epic Fantasy works that are not written by white male authors. There are so many active female Epic Fantasy writers: Rebecca Roanhorse, "Between Earth and Sky" Janny Wourts just concluded a 11 volumes epic, "Wars of Light and Shadow" Tasha Sury, "The Burning Kingdoms" Fonda Lee, R. F. Kuang, N. K. Jemisin, Jen Lyons, Shannon Chakraborty , M. L. Wang and the list goes on and on...
JOHAN to be honest you do great. You should do videos like this and defens yourself cause of comments but I understand where you come from! You are a good booktuber and informer. Keep going. Let us know when you are in Sweden 🇸🇪
I started to read 4th wings and now I have to finish it because I dont leave books in mid way bit it is hard … I found annoying when there is so much emphasis in a love story
it feels like fantasy is suddenly competing with itself or something. since fantasy adaptations to screens have become increasingly popular, i think publishing is trying to get that slice of the pie. greed, yk, fuels every industry. it sounds pessimistic, it's just realistic. the only reason people ever actually decided to print things for the public was because profits were to be made in the efforts of satisfying demand for it. and, now that fantasy is getting demand (but in another seemingly-more-profitable medium), publishers are trying to change their game to get that pie. they want fantasy novels to be peoples alternatives to fantasy television, not knowing that their system cannot keep up with that. they want to capture a demographic that they were never truly entitled to, by changing how their industry handles everything. fantasy enjoyers are not readers, readers can be fantasy enjoyers. but they'll insist that they can create readers by making the reading space into a less-ready environment by game-ifying it. "how many books did you finish this year?? share it with your friends! your friend challenged you to read this book, you better buy it up and start! we made em shorter so we could get you another title to add to your total, and you dont have to read as much to get there! awesome, take another!"
My problem is the size of book. I would rather read 10 books of 400-500 pages, than 5 books of 1000 or more. I had no problem with the Path of the Ranger series that runs to 20 books. If it were 10 humongous books, I wouldn't have even tried the first one. Also, Patterson went in with a trilogy idea, Maximum Ride series, and waited for the readers. He then got a forth book offer. And then a second trilogy offer and then another book and then another book. So he is up to 9 Maximum Ride books. But wait! He then offered a manga of Maximum Ride books and got that deal. Maybe more authors should not run into a publisher's office yelling, "I have a great fantasy series in mind that are huge books and there will be 100 books in the series!" Writers need to rethink their thinking. I recommend they look to British screenwriters. Julian Fellowes wrote a one-off show and sent it to PBS. Downton Abbey. Americans went crazy and wanted more more more. And Julian Fellowes had a little DA cottage industry. (I might add Doc Martin to that, as well.) In other words, wait until you see what happens. If your book or trilogy hits the best seller list and people beg for more. Then fill out your full fantasy (many authors are now doing prequel books...ala Star Wars). And, BTW, why aren't all the 381 Star Wars books never mentioned? I think most of them made the NY Times best seller list as #1s. They're fantasy and romantasy and sci fi and are very well written...many by top selling authors who write other books. Hmmm?
Trusting that an epic fantasy will conclude, and that it won't be a waste of time, is a huge ask regarding unknown authors. That's what I say as a *reader*. I half expect Martin to die before A Song of Ice and Fire is done, so I'll wait until it is and learn if it's good before wasting more time. Also longer does not mean better, and I've been recommended really long. (Never again, Robin Hobb.) Sometimes telling writers to trim the fat is because the fat makes the story worse.
My stance is pretty firmly in the middle here, however I think this video is a really good rebuttal and treats both the topic and Matt with the appropriate amount of respect. People are so often afraid to disagree respectfully but still discuss as I feel like its a skill that has been decreasing with time. You made a lot of good points and clarified your stances well here.
I mean, it is also easier to write romance than epic fantasy due to the sheer scale, so, maybe it's dying because many authors start doing something easier?
Epic fantasy is evolving, just as books and how they are being marketed are evolving. Personally, I think the fantasy genre as a whole feels like an umbrella such as fiction these days. Yes fantasy fits under fiction, but it also has so many more sub-gernes than so many other genres that fit under fiction. Romantasy or say, urban fantasy can still have Epic Fantasy elements, qualifying it as epic fantasy and many do! Fantasy and epic fantasy, both traditionally and indie published, are evolving with the help of authors of color, women and those of the LGBTQ+ community. The genre looks different today because so many people are telling their version of epic fantasy with voices that have been sequestered for so long.
I personally am writing a story myself. Why do I call it a story and not a book? This is because I don't know how long it's gonna be. After a certain point it may be better for me to make it multiple books. Or I might be able to fight it into one really big book. But who wants to pick up a single book that has a million words? I wouldn't mind it. But I am fifty chapters in about 50k words and I don't think i am close to done at all. Granted I have taken inspiration from the asian lightnovels. So that may affect how I write it as well. As those are all epic in length.
When I think epic fantasy, I don't define it by what the story is about, but by the length. If it isn't of a certain length it doesn't feel like epic fantasy to me. So limiting the word count doesn't make sense to me. As if the epic fantasy is just as long as other forms of fantasy then it makes less sense to say this story is an epic high fantasy, a epic scifi, or even epic romance fantasy. As to me my first experierence with epic fantasy was the high epic fantasy. But I have read so many other epic fantasies at this point. What makes them feel epic isn't swords, magic, tech, or anything else. It is their length.
Working on a fantasy with a team of characters, an expanding world full of adventure, creatures, cultures - no diversity quotas, and world changing events. There will be a minor magic system based on physical implants, swords/daggers, & fire arms from 1800s. I say 1800s because this time frame will be that off a golden period; scientific advancement. This will also serve to limit singular impact of any one person while creatures range from typical animals , beasts, dinosaurs, things you would classify as monsters, & finally dragons. Dragons will be massive and not the small miserable crap you see in todays movies. Characters will be required to think strategically and out of the box similar to a D&D session crossing into dangerous game hunting. Dont know that you would classify it as epic fantasy or something crossing into sci-fi but I want to emphasize adventure and exploration. Would anyone be interested in something like this?
There's a lot of gatekeeping in fantasy. Not everyone wants another Viking or Roman story about conflicted men at war. Heaven forbid we have women characters with romance plots too.
Don't think it's necessarily gatekeeping. For example, I grew up on the Arthurian Mythos, where romance is a really central to the story, and I loved it. I mean, one of my favorite authors used to be Marion Zimmer Bradley, and her books are full of women with romantic plots. And a lot of fantasy has always had that part, and we (I mean people my age) never had any problem with that. The thing with most of what's nowadays called Romantasy is that it isn't fantasy first and foremost with a romantic (sub-)plot being part of it, but that it is basically love stories with a thin veil of fantasy smeared unto it. Probably also doesn't help that a lot of it constantly adresses all those basic instincts with all the sex scenes, instead of focusing on the story. Also, they completely ruined vampires. And if you don't care about that, romantasy just isn't for you. Wouldn't necessarily be a problem, but if you're constantly bombarded with the stuff you don't like by all the platforms you would go to find new stuff to read, I think it's hard to not get angry at least a few times. And that's when you get called a gatekeeper. The thing is I'm not. I don't mind if Romantasy is as successful as it is these days. I just wished that everyone did it like goodreads now does it and separates it from the rest of fantasy to stop it from overshadowing the rest of the genre
I honestly am even more disappointed by this, this felt like you dragging matt to prove your own points. I would love to see the proof in your reasoning, besides my author friend said this. And it's the same five author friends. That's not a large enough sample size. Also you doubled down on romantasy not being the same as epic fantasy. When most romantasy is epic fantasy. There was also no reason for you to keep pointing out that you don't like romantasy in this, your taste shouldn't be relevant to a video like this. I also can name a bunch of 5 book series recently that are epic fantasy the thing is you wouldn't count them cause they are "romantasy". Fourth wing for example as one of those... Lady of darkness. All of SJM is interconnected the way the cosmere is. (and has been since her debut) Crowns of Nyaxia is a six book series, The Bridge Kingdom is 6 books. The plated prisoner is 5 books long. From Blood and Ash has 2 series connected both over 5 books long. Romantasy can and often is very much be a subgenre of epic fantasy. Maybe you personal view and bubble on what is epic fantasy is dead. But epic fantasy as a whole is still going. When I pick up epic fantasy I'm looking for sprawling world building, politics stretching across borders, intricate details, characters I am rooting for. I want those same things out of romantasy. I mean GOT has more s*x than most of the romantasy I read...... tbh I dont think I've picked up an epic fantasy before that doesn't revolve some what around romance...... so why when its written from a woman is it looked upon so differently?
I won't be able to respond to all your points but I am really sorry to hear that you are disappointed but it sounds like this might be an area where we might have to agree to disagree. I tried my best to emphasise in this video that I see the rise of romantasy as a general good thing and there is nothing wrong with loving both! I have always found your channel as fantastic since you promote more genres than I do and I will keep watching your videos for inspiration. I did ask Matt for permission before making a response video and he said I should go for it! I really tried my best to not come across as disrespectful to Matt! It is always challenging to make a rebuttal without coming across as "negative" but I tried my best. I hope most people will see it didn't come from a place of malice but rather a place of wanting to further the discussion along! Thanks for your comment Cassidy. I wish you all the best.
Crown of Nyaxia was the first that comes to mind as a recent contender as venn diagramming epic fantasy and romance. The Helen Scherer series as well (I can’t think of the name)…. Idk I think I need some other people who read epic fantasy AND “romantasy” traditionally AND self published. I follow quite a few women who have a broad reading scope and I would love to see what they think about this discourse
@@availandco ToriTalks has a video called Where Did Epic Fantasy Go? with Johanna Reads where they have a live discussion about the topic. It's really good and goes into a lot more detail to the nuances of this topic.
Why does any of this matter? If you are not an author and you don’t work in the publishing industry, all you have is anecdotal evidence and impressions. It’s obvious you’re more interested in making videos/money than you are in reading and reviewing books.
@@arthurhaag9434 If you glance at his list of uploads, most of his videos are “Top 10” lists and whining about female fantasy authors gaining more popularity than male “epic fantasy” authors. That’s how I know. This is more a drama channel than a book channel. Facts are facts, America 🤷
@@eruditearchive what is the problem with top 10 list? They get more views because more people enjoy watching it. Why would you make this about gender, doesnt even make sense, he is just saying that epic fantasy is less atractive to publishers that romance, and in just 2 vídeos out of 100s. How can you be so mad about a simple video of this guy telling some normal opinions
@@arthurhaag9434 The problem for me personally is when a channel primarily puts out flashy videos like top 10 lists, I see someone who is trying to get as many views as possible/game the algorithm/make it big on UA-cam. It is inauthentic. There are genuine booktubers aplenty that don’t care about this stuff, who talk about books, reading, and their reading life in a genuine way, and that is the type of book content I want to consume. This guy is a hack who “reads” to make flashy videos and cash in on genuine book lovers’ love of reading. I’m sorry you can’t see through this guy’s facade but when I discovered him a few years ago, I smelled the scam right away and unsubscribed.
@nealsteplaws that's how it sounds to me, too. I look at his lists of best epic fantasy, all written why white men and whining about romantasy which we all know is predominantly written by women. And he's not the only booktuber doing it. If there's a market for these tropes and they raked in millions of dollars why wouldn't these authors use that to their advantage? I've been waiting for authors like GRRM to finish his epic fantasy series and he and others seem to have no interest in finishing their books. People keep pretending as if publishing isn't a business, not a charity organization. Romance has foot the bill for years and people go put of their way to whine and be snobbish towards the genre.
I think the reason why people react negatively on your video was because literature and publishing is a high risk buisness. So, if someone says "this genre is dying" and that then becomes a discourse - that will deter investors from that genre. It is a self forfilling prophesy. So once you started to say that, all these people that have money invested in that type of literature must speak out and try to prove to you, and their investors, that yeah no this is not in fact dying - is not in fact a bad investment.
I checked out the guys video. Talking about wood pulp demand being the real reason why publishers are asking for less pages. What kind of argument is that called? I saw the video and I knew what you were trying to say. It's good that people are picking apart and reacting to your videos.
Upfront I dont agree with this video, and this can be potentially dangerous. I think this is missing the mark with what, at least, my own criticism was in the original video. Since this is now a formal argument, I will comment on that this response is more experience of a small limited sample size, which can and is probably leading to bias. This can be more hurtful, and leads can lead to marginalized communities possibly being silenced or not considered. Opinions are fine but need to be stated as such, but this is being stated as fact with little no cited evidence, which is dangerous from a community sense.
It seems obvious that the old era of fantasy, of which we typically associate epic fantasy with, is all but over apart from a few notable exceptions. These books tended to cater more to male adolescent readers and typically featured male protagonists, even when the writers were female (like the great Ursula Le Guin ). Today, just go into a bookstore and see for yourself. Nowadays, more women read than men, they have higher literacy, and the hard-to-accept truth is that not as many men read in general, let alone fantasy. By contrast, women's reading rates have increased, they purchase far more books, and publishers are businesses and have to publish in line with this demand. Since the early 2000s, massively successful YA fiction, written by women for women, increasingly began to comprise fantasy and supernatural themes and these directly grew into all of the booming Romantasy hybrid genres of today which dominate the field. These books skew a little shorter as the focus is on romantic relationships, rather than on traditional fantasy world-building. None of this is bad per se, just a reflection of changing times.
This was such a disappointing follow up video. You didn't bring any additional proof or evidence of causation that isn't hearsay or from anyone new. It appeared that you made this video just to primarily disagree with someone else's opinion and to push your own thoughts and biases. Which is fine in an opinion video, but you displayed this as an essay video where you did research to get your viewpoints across. From my point of view, you esstentially doubled down and wanted to reemphasize what you had already said in a different way without doing too much more research. A great video you may want to watch is a liveshow by ToriTalks. And with your thoughts on romantasy, I think you need to read more of them before you can comment on whether or not they are epic fantasy. Actually, you needed to define what you think epic fantasy is in more detail and then define what you think romantasy is. Because if you did that, maybe you'd discover a few things about romantasy that you weren't aware of. Romantasy readers read romantasy for more than just the smut. I will let you know that I dislike smut scenes. I skip them, but I love the stories, the characters, the themes, and the world epic romantasy books have introduced me to.
When did he say romantasy readers read the genre for the smut? He never used that term. As someone who has read romantasy quite a bit and has been steeped in the romance community for a very long time, he is right in saying that the genre expectations are different when someone picks up an epic fantasy book and a romantasy. They are formulated with different audiences in mind. Romantasy clearly has to focus on the chemistry and the romantic and/or sexual relationship between the main characters. Epic fantasy focuses on other aspects of fantasy more, even if it contains some sort of romantic subplot.
@@angelxxsin He never really stated what different things romantasy readers and epic fantasy readers are looking for in books. I'm assuming smut because in his previous video and other videos he mentioned Fourth Wing (which is his prime example for romantasy), he talks about and quotes intimate scenes or says things to the like in reference to romantasy. That is why I'd like him to clarify, hence why I'd like him to define epic fantasy and romantasy in these videos. He leaves a lot up to interpretation and it can be harmful to others.
Epic Fantasy may be dying, but the real shame is that competent writers are becoming less and less prominent in favor of straightforward, dumbed down, low vocabulary, non-descriptive, poorly if at all edited works from people who probably never finished the tenth grade. And from what I've seen, many of the top booktubers are leading the charge in moving this trend forward. I unsubbed to all other booktubers (with the exception of you) this week because it has become obscenely clear to me that not only do they not care about the adequacy of the writing itself, but I am 100% convinced none of them have any idea what the difference between competent and decent prose is.
Epic Fantasy is dying because men don't read fiction anymore. With the market being dominated by women, it's only natural that genres that traditionally veer towards the male demographic would fall by the wayside.
Don’t take it personal. Matt has a style but it’s funny. 😁 Ok, but make a real list of epic fantasy series by publishing order how many we had in each year to read in reality? Because one thing is common in you two with Petrik: you are reading a backlog. I’m not that much. I read fantasy for 30 years. So I look at this a bit differently and I give a bit more credit to Matt. In each year we didn’t have that much of these famous stories to read what now you call epic fantasy and are so big and intimidating. Or take Asian Saga - Shogun… read it 25 years ago. With the following books. And you have a sci-fi backlog too to finish. From Asimov to Lem and so on… 🤷♂️
Back in the late 70’s I was reading Lord of the Rings, Anne McCaffrey’s Pern books, Ursula LeGuin Earthsea, Roger Zelazny’s Chronicles of Amber and in the 80‘s we actually had an explosion of fantasy. Stephen R Donaldson’s Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Mists of Avalon, David Eddings‘ Belgariad, Terry Brooks‘ Shannara, Hickman & Weiss’ Dragon lance, Raymond E.Feist’s Riftwar and Empire Series, GGK Fionavar, David Gemmel’s Drennai Saga, and Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow and Thorn just to name a few. There were absolutely loads more. We certainly had no dearth of epic Fantasy in the 80s ! Then came along Wheel of Time in the early 90’s which kicked off even more epic fantasy!
@@SuperPuddingcat and? I asked how many they actually read of those so called epic fantasy stories? Not much. I did read Drenai but it’s not that, it’s separated mini series in it again. I read dragonlance it’s not that, short game books of D&D golden age. I did read a lot of what you say. It’s not that. Wheel of Time came and that what they are talking about. Don’t forget what are the parameters. It has to be a long book! Actually Drenai is not. Dragonlance is not etc.. those are short books. Shannara is probably fitting but it’s also meh… half. Because of its many entry points… is it really the same structure as Wheel of Time? No. It’s close but no. It’s a collection of trilogies. So again fits what Matt says. First it was a trilogy and then again was a trilogy… etc… it’s not 1 long arc… Raymond E. Feist… he wrote it until now. He just finished it recently. Again: relatively short books, but even then: very trope-y, it becomes a copy-paste thing fast of its own and from the golden age of D&D. And Earthsea? It’s a short story. 200 pages each and written in 2 parts. Ursula Le Guin was a master storyteller without doubt. Yet she wrote only a few short books in fantasy. I have the collection here in one with illustrations. It’s shorter than Lord of the Rings+Hobbit. Basically the First Law is way more an epic fantasy here and so is Dresden Files. It’s almost 20 books and one long story. Will of the Many has that potential in it. But at least will be a trilogy. The thing is: it’s not necessarily the publisher. To write Wars of Light and Shadow took a lifetime for Janny Wurts as she just said. That’s how it works. Because one thing to write those low quality novels like Drizzt in a row, but high end English literature? On the level of Malazan or that? Or even a story of Wheel of Time? Now that’s not going the same time. For the fast writer Sanderson took 2 years to write Stormlight 5. And he had plans for it and no other things to worry about if he wanted to work. So… yes. It’s very much possible that there are epic fantasy stories in progress and we don’t know about it. The Wheel of Time category is very rare and was back then. We don’t have many series to recommend to the readers today yet both of us read a lot in the past. If someone tells you to recommend something like Wheel of Time from the past? What can you say? And I mean it! Something like that! You said we had a lot of things. So? Why don’t we recommend a lot? 👀Because only a few are quality books. So is romantasy today! Nothing changed.
@@nazimelmardi I understood your comment to mean that back in the day we didn’t have much famous stories to read either and I disagree with that. I don’t think fantasy has to be one long arc, that it has to be longer than 3 books or that each book has to be a huge tome in order to be classified as epic or famous. I made this same comment on the first video . If all the epic tales that went before do not count because they were not “big” enough and only the likes of Wheel of Time, A Song if Ice and Fire, The Faithful and the Fallen, Malazan, Stormlight etc are considered epic that is a very narrow classification of “epic” and you are correct, epic fantasy in those terms never really existed long enough for it to be considered as a dying genre.
@@SuperPuddingcat I use this method to make a point to establish what Matt said. Before this “romantasy” thing back at the day there was D&D and we played a lot that gave a strong base for books. Not all were directly related like Salvatore or Feist or in fact Dragonlance but in general had some similar stuff. So there is always a common factor. Now the main thing is female presence in marketing and management of the publishing industry is one. The second is TikTok like it or not. But not in the way we interpreted it. While back then we shared our thing (RPG) as boys/guys so now the girls on TikTok. It’s a very female dominated area the booktok. That’s why if any man starts an account with epic fantasy they welcome him very much. He is rare. Yet basically that fuels the romantasy. And not just romantasy but in general contemporary romance - We see you Coleen Hoover. Yes, these books are cheap in writing and they know it, but… in UK the q1 in fantasy ended with the win of Sarah j Maas again in book selling. Period. Guess who was the second? Yes, Rebecca Yarros. 4th Wing and its sequel… it’s killing the epic fantasy and sci-fi but not the way he thinks or Petrik thinks. It’s because they go after the money and the boys/men literally can’t find their interest in the stores. It’s not there. Because we are not showing it in the virtual world that we want it. Aka TikTok’s female dominance and again the irony in the gender identity in the employment of that many female workers in marketing. Yes, it’s really a thing that in publishing of fantasy the decision makers are women in majority. 👀 so that also changed. But there is one other factor. This industry was always extremely slow in adapting things. So they followed trends but very slowly and very badly. See what they did after Harry Potter. Everything became YA including Wheel of Time…. They learn but it takes time. First the dollar next the adjustment properly. Give them a 3-5 years and let’s see because this booktok hype can go around plus women grow up (a lot are very young there) and we also started to appear on it and gain audience. If we can balance it and authors!!! appear too not just romantasy? It can turn back. Sanderson already there and started to create content, comment to the fantasy girls accounts. A new sci-fi author joined a book club of sisters personally and with that gained thousands of readers immediately. That’s how you do it. ☝️I told before to Petrik. I blame the booktubers too. They ignored TikTok and looked down when it was time. Now we have the consequences. 2 billion videos there and growing about books. That includes authors new authors (4th wing is you see came from there and pushed down every fantasy) . So instead of this video? Let’s go guys and turn the romantasy girls to epic readers! Create on booktok! Follow Sanderson’s lead. He is right again about business.
I actually find the conversation this video spawned quite pertinent and I'm a romance reader. It'd be better to say "he made a video that annoyed people". Drop the "bad" from the sentence. Just because something is annoying to some, that doesn't mean it's bad or a conversation that shouldn't be had.
@@TRUc972 I mean you can say your name is Princess Banana Hammock. And my opinion is I don't think "bad" applies to the video, but that's me, luv. You do you.
Romantaticy? Is the same or different to gender swap lgbt stuff? All great if there are really fans out there for it. Its just a wonder, people really read that? It might actually be our Grandmothers....
I started to read 4th wings and now I have to finish it because I dont leave books in mid way bit it is hard … I found annoying when there is so much emphasis in a love story
Thanks to Matt's Fantasy Book Reviews contribution to this discussion. I would encourage everyone to watch Matt's video to gain a better understanding of his arguments!
ua-cam.com/video/T2cu0B0I4Zg/v-deo.htmlsi=zrLPaKjPpDk3XOqs
Thanks for the nuanced discussion! I hope you don't get offended by my "AI generated content" comment because it wasn't directed towards you. It was directed at the half dozen other videos that spawned immediately after yours that felt like a carbon copy of your video.
Haha, no, I wasn't offended mate! Thanks for making the original video! I hope I didn't offend you in anyway in this response video. I tried my best to highlight my disagreements in a respectful way and hope that came across.
All the best!
@@libraryofaviking Your all good, definitely not offended in the slightest! I work in politics, and am married. Having disagreements is basically my life :)
@@MattsFantasyBookReviews Legend!
You two are cute, this is some of the politest & most respectful UA-cam discourse I've ever seen. Love the booktube community!
I'm hoping for a rivalry though, a Messi vs Ronaldo kind of thing ? 😛
Did you know, there were about x4 more fantasy books published over 2010-2020 than over the whole 80s & 90s combined! I feel like both arguments have merit, but i feel like we are just seeing ALOT more diverse fantasy, there are just as many (if not more) epic fantasy books coming out, but there are no longer the main type of fantasy book published. They are there, just harder to find. A very complex issue, and i hope it prompts people to look further and find those unsung epic fantasy gems!
That's a really good point! Epic fantasy has definitely been in a golden era!
It is definitely a complex issue. Thanks for watching!
I think the crux of the argument is that, if you want to write a fantasy series with Sanderson's worldbuilding complexity (with the corresponding wordcount) and you're not Sanderson, you're not getting traditionally published. Not in this economy. Not until who knows when.
If that means epic fantasy is dying then it's a matter of debate. The argument of epic fantasy not needing huge wordcounts is the most interesting one, since there are other subgenres (urban, portal, sword and sorcery) where this is definitely the case, but with epic is much more complex.
I think you pretty much nailed it! There is definitely an argument to be made that limiting the word count might lead to authors becoming more creative which might be a long-term good thing! We will have to wait and see!
I think one of the main things here is societal trends greater than fantasy itself - which is the increasing fragmentation and digitization of culture. Which makes big business less likely to serve certain markets, something of which has happened in every entertainment industry. It doesn't necessarily mean that the form is dying - it's a service issue. Which is such a shame for those of us who aren't interested in the mass market forms of the present day. Even worse when you're not accessing something like self-publishing, which is where underserved creators have to go.
Romantasy and cozy lit have been fueled by Tiktok... people forget that these are still also niches/subgenres, just like epic fantasy, regardless of how immediately exploitable they are by the modern business model. I take umbrage with people trying to turn it into a culture war, as if certain forms of art should be elevated because of whatever social trends and politics of the past have done. It's a chicken and egg thing - if you want women and minorities to make more epic fantasy, the form has to be accessible. If it didn't entice those demographics in the past, of course the work salient in the cultural zeitgeist will have been produced by the people most directly inspired by it. You can have both epic fantasy, romantasy, and everything else existing at the same time. It's not an either-or outside of whatever limitations capitalism is placing on it.
Anyway, this whole discussion reminds me a lot of both movies and AAA gaming, which I think are great reference points for the monetary dynamics and how consumers are losing out in the end. The big statements attract interest, but the core problem is being decided from the top - businesses don't see something as profitable enough, so they don't want to invest in it. Which makes it less accessible to people, so of course people have less investment in it themselves. It's rather cynical, but take AAA publishers trying to tell us things like horror and single-player games are dead while making no effort to create good products in those categories. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
(Edit - forgot to mention the modern attention span and information bombardment, which was where I was headed before getting distracted. Has to make long-form investments a tougher sell than ever)
Interesting comment and agree that it is a service issue! It sounds like you should have a channel as well since you are good at articulating your points!
Still watching, but I completely agree with your response to claim 2! Epic fantasy doesn’t *have* to be long, but it’s unfortunate that authors who do who want to write long books are currently being told to limit their word count
100%. I feel so sad for authors wanting to tell a story that demands lots of words but are told 'no'... It doesn't feel right.
Long story short: It's not dying, but it's not very healthy either. Someone needs to give it some medicine 😄
Glad you are doing your part to give it some medicine! I need to pick up book 2 in your series!
@@libraryofaviking I will mail it over soon! :)
Great video and this discussion has been so interesting to follow! I don't think epic fantasy will ever die but longer fantasy series do seem to be taking a backseat for a bit
Thanks mate! Yes, it looks like it is taking a backseat but I believe epic fantasy will make a strong comeback!
Great video, mate! If there's anything to hope from this discussion, whichever argument/deduction is correct or wrong, it is that for more people reading epic fantasy beyond the already famous names. As I said, despite the state it is now, I have no doubt traditional epic fantasy (maybe even grimdark?) will return stronger! 😁
Well said!
I think that a video doing a statistical analysis as to how many epic fantasy are being published by debut authors year on year, as well as epic fantasy books being published overall by each of the biggest epic fantasy publishers in the UK and the US. I think this might be the best way to reduce the back and forth between separate booktube channels, because it'll be difficult for subjective opinions to argue against statistical evidence.
yeah I find it weird that people are saying that this information is inaccessible, there are trade magazines that cover those statistics. Since they are for professionals they tend to be pricy, but yeah this is not something that needs to be speculated on, people can for sure find out sales numbers. Its not a secret.
A lot of what you're talking about is technically abductive reasoning but that's a quibble. As a trad published author of a debut fantasy novel, I call tell you that your claims are valid. Generally speaking, publishers are NOT interested in 100,000+ word novels, don't want to hear about long series plans, and so forth. King of the Forgotten Darkness is only 96k and my publisher initially still asked me to trim it. You are simply not going to publish a long book (which epic fantasy commonly needs to feel satisfying), unless your name rhymes with Frandon Jamberson. So, yeah, I think the genre is suffering. Great video, as usual, love your content!
random fact gathering questions so I can situate you in my mind with a lot of other peoples' experiences: What publisher, and where were you on the Low/mid/high list end of things?
@@PonderingsOfPete Roundfire Press, small/midsize.
I'll repeat a point I made on Patrick's original video that I think it is about the packaging and pricing:
It makes sense that when people pay for "books" and not "words" that authors (both indy and trad) will be encouraged to publish more short books than fewer long books since the ROI per time is going to be a lot better for 5 60K books than 1 300K book.
If you were paid per word, or per time it takes to consume, you could have many more chunky books. But when you don't, the safer bet is the shorter books.
The other problem with longer series (in terms of number of books), is the natural audience for each further book in your series is generally a subset of those who have read the earlier books. Now if the earlier books were super popular (like a Harry Potter or Hunger Games or Twilight or something) then that built in audience is great. But if the earlier books were not as popular, that may make book 3, 4, 5, etc. harder to motivate/market. You could get lucky and if book 3 or 4 or whatever ends up a huge success you push more readers to the backlist and refresh the interest in book 1, 2, etc., but usually book 1 will have more readers than book 2, book 2 more than book 3, and so on. I mean arguably this chain of sequence is impacting even things like Marvel movies where some people are not as interest as they feel they've missed some movies or TV series or some of the relatively loose continuity that these have. A densely epic fantasy series may be even harder to pick and choose from (although something like wider Cosmere or Vorkosigan Saga does a pretty good job of allowing one to skip or read out of order without too much impact so far).
So put these together and you get an effort to have shorter rather than longer books, and to be skeptical about too many promises for multi-book series (at least until the series is proven a hit).
As a reader, I prefer multibook series for at least a couple of reasons: If it is multibook, that likely mean it is good enough to be worth multiple books; If I like it, that means there is more content to consume. But the very worst IMO is to have multibook series that clearly need more books but that might not be finished. That trend that happens to TV shows (Netflix especially, but others too) really hurts the ability to invest in more complex narratives in these shows/stories. A trend in the book world to shorter books so that an epic story might be lots of short books instead of few long ones could work, but also runs the risk of a higher chance of a series ending incomplete. Take something like the Dandelion Dynasty. There are interviews where Ken Liu describes the series as "like one very long book"). Could it still be an epic story when it is one long book published as 4 very long books? Would it also work if it were published as something like 20 short books in one series? There are chapters or sections or significant events that could be somewhat natural break points for books, but cutting it up to fine might cause problems as each book wouldn't necessarily have a satisfactory ending point, so it would likely be more a packaging decision than a true book on its own.
An important truth to remember is that there are trends in publishing. Trends come and go. The current boom in epic fantasy thanks to the proximate publication of ASOIAF Book 5 and the last full novel by Patrick Rothfuss. HBO also boosted sales thanks to their miniseries. Since than many years have passed, there's been a printing crunch, a paper shortage, a pandemic, and global turmoil. All these factors contribute to marketplace changes. Fantasy isn't going away. Just like the end of the big boom in horror which ended abruptly at the sawn of the nineties contraction is occurred. But there will be more books in your favorite genre. Relax. It'll be OK.
I personally agree more with Matt but I also really appreciated these clarifications and the encouragement of more discourse about these topics! I love Romantasy and fantasy, and honestly, I think with new terms in publishing every day it feels like, people are bound to get confused trying to define them. Like, the same thing with cozy fantasy. Anyway, I think we just have to be careful not to marginalize female fantasy writers, and we have to encourage and promote all fantasy. Some Romantasy leans more romance, some leans more epic fantasy, and you don’t know til you read them.
I am not the biggest “romantasy fan” you could say but it feels like an attack on women readers in fantasy coming into the genre but then saying now that “romantasy” is not epic fantasy when that is simply not true. To me it feels like the same vibe as devaluing twilight for example just because women and young girls like it en masse
He didn't say anything about women at all though. Disliking things like twilight or sjm can in fact be taste and not sexism. As a woman, I (often) dislike these popular romance/romantasy books because the authors and/or the content are extremely toxic. Which wouldn't matter as much to me, if they weren't continuously marketed towards very young, impressionable girls, and it also gets annoying when your whole fyp is full with people telling you it's the single handedly greatest thing ever written just to end up feeling very wattpad. (Coming from someone who used to enjoy e.g twilight and sjm in her teens andkeeps on trying out romantasy here and there)
Now, there is nothing wrong with (especially adult) people enjoying their time with these books, getting excited over these characters and worlds etc. But the number one argument against criticism conerning many romantasy works continues to be "oh you just hate women". And I get it
How many times as a young girl has an uncle or male teacher smirked or rolled theor eyes at my choice of book? And if I read something they deemed "high quality" would be surprised that "someone like me" would even know of xyz. And there are their fair share of men like that on the internet. But when someone is just talking about own personal taste, and bringing up valid arguments while also not mentioning women in any sort of derogatory way, I find it incredibly disheartening to see the "it's sexism" response.
I am a woman. My e-reader is bursting with romantasy because I never give up hope of finding something interesting for me. Emily Wilde's Encyclopaedia of Faeries is one of my favorite series. But I can't help the fact that Fourth Wing is dumb. I can't bring myself to admire books like this just because women write them if I think they're stupid and I can't read more than three paragraphs without rolling my eyes at its illogicality and sheer nonsense. The same goes for fantasy written by men. I hate The Dark Elf Trilogy by R. A. Salvatore with passion. I never tire of making fun of it every time I get the chance.
If hating crappy works makes one a misogynist then so be it.
@@booksandhappiness432 certainly not to make any accusations, hopefully you don't perceive them, but i often see the sexism response be loaded in a different way than usually expected. i'll see proclaimed feminists saying that books have to be a certain way, lest we as women be seen as lesser, and it becomes a very counter-productive mindset somehow.
there can definitely be a vague argument made for "protecting the children", but the onus of a strong moral compass should be on parents and not on media. those with a compass can digest media and take it with a grain of salt much better. but, further, the moral compass can look different from one's own and still be okay.
not to say anything about you, but i'll often see people saying that romantasy books are "trashy and unhealthy because it's all harems and BDSM and smut and women need to be more clean than that because otherwise we wont be respected." however, people who perpetuate that clean image of women are the people who make women like me prefer the unclean image. i'm not who you tell me to be, and i'm fine how i am. i'm still a woman fit for respect, and any girl who grows up to love these things for any reason should still be respected. conditional respect of anyone based on anything so harmless as entertainment is a little... meh.
This is a great (and important) discussion. I love both of your channels and enjoyed both viewpoints. I don't feel there's any definitive answer to this question, but the discussion likely puts more eyes on more epic fantasy, which is a great thing!
It seems like most of the people angry at you in this comment section are mad because they feel the need to defend romantasy as a form of literature. I think you are right about most of what you said in this video, but the argument needs to be reframed. The publishing industry has always been chasing trends one way or another. Right now that trend is romantasy, so of course that’s being favored over everything else by publishers. People can love or hate that, but I think the real issue is that publishers HAVE to do stuff like this to make money. They want guarantees that people are going to buy something because not enough people are buying books! It’s an obvious observation, but it’s true. The only way they will publish more epic fantasy is if there is a higher demand for it. Anyway, people need to stop being so mad and defensive. We all want the same thing here, guys!
I wish Romantasy was a subgenre of Romance instead of Fantasy. If the industry standard focused on fewer words and emphasized romance, it would encourage authors to develop the romantic elements more deeply while cutting back on the fantasy aspects.
100% agree, the average reader of Fourth Wing is far more likely to also read Colleen Hoover than they are George Martin. Romantasy is by and large not written for fantasy fans.
Yes, and often at times I feel like the fantasy aspect of romantasy is often used as an aesthetic which is why it's easy to find holes and aspects of it that don't make sense.
@@ozharmounian8497Yeah, um… I read and loved Fourth Wing. The only Colleen Hoover book I read I literally threw in the trash when I was done. There is zero crossover appeal. People who read Colleen Hoover tend to not like fantasy at all, and vice versa. Romantasy is where the romance and the fantasy aspects are equal in terms of plot space given. It’s cool to hate on Fourth Wing because it blew up so much so fast, but there is quite a lot of Romance Fantasy/Fantasy Romance that reads nothing like Fourth Wing, but still have the hallmarks of epic fantasy. (i.e. the grand scale, the huge cast of characters, the multi POV, the political machinations, quests, magical items and fantasy creatures.) For reference i love Sanderson, Tolkien, Eddings, McClellan, and many other men who write epic fantasy. Romantasy can often be very epic.
100% agree with this ! I love Epic Fantasy and Romantasy and even plain old Romance and definitely agree it should be a sub genre of Romance. Doesn't take away from the fantasy element of those books but really they don't compare to epic fantasy
Romantasy IS a subgenre of romance. That is why it is so popular, since romance has a far greater readership than science fiction/fantasy.
I think publishers want less niche and more universal. Long word counts, 9393993 book series-- that doesn't appeal to the average reader or to literary readers, and publishers are trying to get book into as many people's hands as possible. I dont think it means the genre is dying, just that it's changing. 😊
I wanted to see what AI would say to your premise. Therefore, I asked the AI: "Is epic fantasy dying?"
AI's Answer: "Not at all! Epic fantasy remains a vibrant and beloved genre in literature. While trends may ebb and flow, epic fantasy continues to captivate readers with its rich world-building, intricate plots, and compelling characters. Authors like Brandon Sanderson, Patrick Rothfuss, N.K. Jemisin, and many others continue to produce bestselling epic fantasy novels, and new voices are constantly emerging in the genre. Additionally, epic fantasy has found new life in other media, such as television and film, with adaptations like "Game of Thrones" and "The Witcher" series drawing large audiences. So, rather than dying, epic fantasy seems to be evolving and expanding its reach across different platforms and audiences."
It is really nice to see discourse between two decently sized figures that isn't just shit flinging. I appreciate you both. I think you both make good points though. Mike's key point in his video especially about Romantasy being a gateway into different (not necessarily better) is a great point to make. I would have never read Lord of the Rings if it wasn't for Peter Jackson's adaption. I would have never read Stormlight Archive if I didn't read Lord of the Rings. I would have never discovered Booktube without reading Stormlight Archive. And lastly, I would not have read Sun Eater without Booktube. Everything each person does is a gateway and I really think the more people pickup what most of us deem, inferior, or ineffectual Romantasy books, the more publishers will want to work to establish bigger series' again. Even so. I think the biggest problem in fantasy is size. Lord of the Rings is three books that are in total a single Stormlight Archive book in length. I don't think I need to spell out what the issue is.
wait no spell that out, i thought LoTR was a decent size. i've not read basically any widely-acclaimed(lack of better word) books so i dont have a physical reference for that but... at the very least I figured that they were standard. is Stormlight Archive like... over a thousand pages?????
As someone who started reading Wheel of Time in 2008….. was epic fantasy ever in its heyday??? lol no shade but I feel like this discourse is moot 😭
The LOTR movies marked its heyday imo, got me to pick up his books as a kid, as well as the works of Eddings and Martin too.
J maas has massive books with a vastly (imho) exaggerated wordcounts. But her books are romantisy right? I dont think the focus on a declining wc in books has anything to do with epic fantasy. It just doesnt make any sense.
Big author names will always get exceptions. It is the debut and smaller authors that are hurting by this limitation. I don't have any insights into how many authors have been asked to limit their word count but Mike Shackle, Peter McLean and E.L Lam were told to write fewer words.
@@libraryofaviking yeah but how many of those exceptions are there? I remember writing fantasy 10 years ago and debut authors got way lower wordcounts back then too - even J K Rowling. You can see how her first book is a lot shorter than the rest of them. Maximum 100k words for debuts, even 90k or 75k I heard back then. So Why is it surprising now? :/ Maybe the thing you thought to be normal, (giving a debut 120K words) was never really normal, only an exception.
I appreciate your careful, nuanced response to the backlash from your previous video. I also appreciate how kind, and careful you are about your response. It amazes me how butt hurt people still are despite how clear and careful you are with your counter arguments. You are definitely more careful than Matt.
One thing I would like to say about romantasy is that, yes, some works can also be considered epic fantasy by definition. That said, most of them are not. It’s rather like how all golden retrievers are dogs, but most dogs are not golden retrievers. It’s just a small niche of the romantasy sub-genre that even qualifies for this discussion, so all the people getting their feathers ruffled, are doing so over a small issue. The only truly powerhouse name in romantasy that can also be considered epic fantasy is Sarah J. Maas (powerhouse being defined as many people knowing about the author and their works outside of the author’s fan base). Maybe an argument can be made for Rebecca Yarros because of Fourth Wing, but she doesn’t have that many romantasies under her belt yet.
Anyway, the point is, if you ask the average person what they consider to be epic fantasy, and which authors write epic fantasy, I guarantee almost none of them will mention a romantasy series or author. This may change in the future, because romantasy is booming in popularity, and there will certainly be authors whose works are technically both sub-genres. Today is not that day though. Most people still separate epic fantasy and romantasy in their heads. Heck, most people don’t recognize romantasy as a sub-genre of fantasy at all, and just see it as romance in general.
Regardless of whether the traditional epic fantasy genre seems to be dying or not, I would say, read what you love. There is plenty out there to choose from in every genre and sub-genre imaginable. Who knows, maybe there will be an epic fantasy renaissance at some point, where traditional epic fantasy will make a come back. Maybe not. Maybe it will evolve into something new. We’ll see.
This is a nice comment. I tried really hard to be fair and respectful but appreciate it is impossible to please everyone.
Thanks for the commenting and watching ☺️
If we’re honest… has Epic Fantasy ever been alive? Hasn’t it always been something just us nerds think about? 😬 You and Petrik are definitely right though. But I’d say it’s not so much dying rather than being in a bit of a slump, when it comes to traditional publishing.
It’s definitely true that in all media, not only books, publishers are favouring “short form”. So obviously, a long epic series doesn’t fit that. However, I do believe this is something that’s always evolving and won’t always be the case.
I’m actually quite hopeful. When I read all these amazing books by incredibly talented authors as Ryan Cahill, Daniel T. Jackson, Philip C. Quaintrell, Joao F. Silva,… just to name a few, I’m quite confident we’ll be fine. Of course, it’s not traditional publishing, but as I said, that’s an ever evolving thing.
In any case, it’s up to us to share these hidden gems and support new/indie authors. We’ve got the authors and the readers. Whatever happens to the publishing industry, Epic Fantasy is here to stay! 😁 PS: I’m sure publishing will settle down at some point and things will become more stable for our beloved authors!
This has been a fascinating discussion. I think the underlying issue is that traditional publishing in general--regardless of genre, is in trouble. Barnes and Noble, the largest US retailer, has been struggling for years. Print runs for books have gotten smaller and smaller, even for popular authors, for a couple of decades or more. Amazon saw the trend early on and diversified quickly--first into DVDs, and then eventually into everything. I don't think epic fantasy is dying--I think publishing is on the precipice of monumental change, and has been for many years. More people are writing fantasy now than ever have, and technology has made it much easier (but still hard) to get published than ever. Trad publishing is still figuring out its place in this modern high tech world.
Hey can please do a video about top 10 fantasy worlds of all time
Good idea! I recently made a video discussing Top 10 Favourite Fantasy Series which might be helpful!
@@libraryofaviking Thanks for the recommendation but I have another idea for a video make a video about Top ten upcoming fantasy book sequels which you are most excited or everyone is so hyped about it like Stormlight archive book 5 please reply your thoughtss
@@libraryofaviking Also I forgot to tell I love your videos so much your videos are so informative and entertaining
Ruocchio had to go to another publishing house to get his series published in full
I said it in Matt's comments, and I'll say it in yours: NEITHER of you define your terms, with frankly Matt being a bit smug about it. Just saying Fourth Wing is Epic fantasy doesn't make it so. I would call it Serial High Fantasy, and, since neither of you make a case for it actually being Epic Fantasy, my assessment stands as equally valid. It's High Fantasy; I win.
Into the dustbin of Fantasy history, Horny Dragon Book!
You maintain that epic fantasy and romantasy are separate, or at least that people read them for separate reasons. As someone who reads both and has been reading both for decades (romantasy is newly popular but not actually a new subgenre!), I feel qualified to state that is not the case for many of us.
Warbreaker by Brandon Sanderson fits the definition of romantasy. It is fantasy with a strong romance storyline which is completely central to the main plot. The only difference honestly is how it is marketed. It's one of my favourite books and that comes equally from the epic fantasy and romance parts of the novel.
I really appreciate you sharing your view and I will definitely take this into consideration going forward. It is an interesting point regarding Warbreaker because I never considered Warbreaker romtantasy but it would probably qualify (and maybe even marketed) as romantasy if it was published today!
Thanks for your comment! Definitely giving me some food for thought!
Uh… no. I don’t think Warbreaker counts as Romantasy for several reasons.
1: The primary focus of the book is not on the couple in question. It is telling that most of the interactions between the two take place behind closed doors and off page. In fact, if it was romantasy the main POVs would have been the couple, not the girl and her sister. Oh, and the god who doesn’t take himself or anything seriously.
2: There is little to no focus on the characters’ romantic feelings. They don’t talk about how hot their love interest is, there are no sparks, and no pining or romantic tension.
3: There is little to no discussion about the romance between them by characters outside of the couple in question. The most you get is that the sister is surprised that they care so much for each other at the end of the book.
Basically, all the hallmarks of traditional romance and romantasy are just not there. Warbreaker is epic fantasy with a romantic subplot.
@@annmoore321To your point 1: there are fantasy romances that are closed doors. Most of Ilona Andrews' books are closed doors and Half a Soul by Olivia Atwater is a regency romantasy that is closed doors. Also, there are many romantasy books that do not have both couples as the POVs. Some of them have 5-6 POVs. For example, Lady of Darkness series or the Everflame series.
To your point 2: I hate it when books focus on the hotness of the love interest in general, and I tend to not enjoy those as much. So there are some out there that don't have that as a focus. Radiance is a great example because the 2 love interests thinks the other is ugly. There are no sparks between them. They learn to love each other because of their personalities and grow closer out of mutal respect.
To your point 3: That happens a lot in so many books that there are too many examples to give you.
Personally, I hate the term romantasy because it's just a TIkTok and marketing creation to get more clicks, views, etc. Fantasy is fantasy and some of romance and some don't, just like other fiction genres.
@@natcommon You make fair points, but I still disagree. Partially because when I said closed doors, I didn’t just mean lime and lemon content. I meant all the intimate moments like when they confess their love, the smoldering looks, and all that stuff. The point is that the romance is the CENTER focus of the plot. In that sense, Half A Soul, regardless of the lack of physical intimacy, is very obviously romantasy.
Also the romance must be the MAIN aspect of the plot that brings readers to the table to qualify as romantasy. And the love birds must be the MAIN points of view regardless of how many others there are in a series. I’m willing to bet that is the case with the other series you mentioned. And if it’s not… Is it possible that those series have been erroneously classified as romantasy simply because the author is female? Food for thought.
What I’m saying is, a romantic subplot does not a romantasy make. If you’re going to argue that I’m wrong, then Wheel of Time and The Lord of the Rings are romantasy. And I have never heard anyone refer to them as such.
you're right. Im a very eclectic reader and read everything and anything. Mixing genres and tropes are good, fun. Marketing however, is an entire different beast. I mean even Lord of the rings has romance in it so, should we call it crossover lit? However, if the main character is female, especially if the author is also female, it just seems like the work will be called more romance and less epic fantasy. Which is really annoying. People are, as usual, very biased. It being romance is also another reason to just say that the quality is lacking. Fantasies that tend to favor female readers are framed as more silly, compared to the ones that favor male readers that are framed as more "realist" or even, (sadly, usually) "realistic".
The whole epic fantasy vs romance and fantasy are not really different genres used in academia to describe fantasy either. Its a very new and rather blunt concept. And it seems to be shaped as a form of... "true fantasy" vs "girls fantasy" in how the discourse takes its shape. It just seems like there is this bitterness among fantasy readers - that more young girls today read books, and less boys read books. And there is no real will to fix this issue - instead people are just... bashing at the stuff that the girlreaders tend to like instead.
Like fix illiterasy among boys instead - that's the real issue.... or learn to see the epic in female literature too?
You know what the problem is? People unwiling to call Epic Fantasy works that are not written by white male authors.
There are so many active female Epic Fantasy writers:
Rebecca Roanhorse, "Between Earth and Sky"
Janny Wourts just concluded a 11 volumes epic, "Wars of Light and Shadow"
Tasha Sury, "The Burning Kingdoms"
Fonda Lee, R. F. Kuang, N. K. Jemisin, Jen Lyons, Shannon Chakraborty , M. L. Wang and the list goes on and on...
JOHAN to be honest you do great. You should do videos like this and defens yourself cause of comments but I understand where you come from! You are a good booktuber and informer. Keep going. Let us know when you are in Sweden 🇸🇪
I started to read 4th wings and now I have to finish it because I dont leave books in mid way bit it is hard … I found annoying when there is so much emphasis in a love story
Love your videos mate but Matt is definitely right on this one.
it feels like fantasy is suddenly competing with itself or something.
since fantasy adaptations to screens have become increasingly popular, i think publishing is trying to get that slice of the pie. greed, yk, fuels every industry. it sounds pessimistic, it's just realistic. the only reason people ever actually decided to print things for the public was because profits were to be made in the efforts of satisfying demand for it. and, now that fantasy is getting demand (but in another seemingly-more-profitable medium), publishers are trying to change their game to get that pie.
they want fantasy novels to be peoples alternatives to fantasy television, not knowing that their system cannot keep up with that. they want to capture a demographic that they were never truly entitled to, by changing how their industry handles everything.
fantasy enjoyers are not readers, readers can be fantasy enjoyers. but they'll insist that they can create readers by making the reading space into a less-ready environment by game-ifying it. "how many books did you finish this year?? share it with your friends! your friend challenged you to read this book, you better buy it up and start! we made em shorter so we could get you another title to add to your total, and you dont have to read as much to get there! awesome, take another!"
My problem is the size of book. I would rather read 10 books of 400-500 pages, than 5 books of 1000 or more. I had no problem with the Path of the Ranger series that runs to 20 books. If it were 10 humongous books, I wouldn't have even tried the first one.
Also, Patterson went in with a trilogy idea, Maximum Ride series, and waited for the readers. He then got a forth book offer. And then a second trilogy offer and then another book and then another book. So he is up to 9 Maximum Ride books. But wait! He then offered a manga of Maximum Ride books and got that deal.
Maybe more authors should not run into a publisher's office yelling, "I have a great fantasy series in mind that are huge books and there will be 100 books in the series!" Writers need to rethink their thinking. I recommend they look to British screenwriters. Julian Fellowes wrote a one-off show and sent it to PBS. Downton Abbey. Americans went crazy and wanted more more more. And Julian Fellowes had a little DA cottage industry. (I might add Doc Martin to that, as well.) In other words, wait until you see what happens. If your book or trilogy hits the best seller list and people beg for more. Then fill out your full fantasy (many authors are now doing prequel books...ala Star Wars).
And, BTW, why aren't all the 381 Star Wars books never mentioned? I think most of them made the NY Times best seller list as #1s. They're fantasy and romantasy and sci fi and are very well written...many by top selling authors who write other books. Hmmm?
Trusting that an epic fantasy will conclude, and that it won't be a waste of time, is a huge ask regarding unknown authors. That's what I say as a *reader*. I half expect Martin to die before A Song of Ice and Fire is done, so I'll wait until it is and learn if it's good before wasting more time. Also longer does not mean better, and I've been recommended really long. (Never again, Robin Hobb.) Sometimes telling writers to trim the fat is because the fat makes the story worse.
My stance is pretty firmly in the middle here, however I think this video is a really good rebuttal and treats both the topic and Matt with the appropriate amount of respect. People are so often afraid to disagree respectfully but still discuss as I feel like its a skill that has been decreasing with time. You made a lot of good points and clarified your stances well here.
Thanks, mate! I appreciate it!
I mean, it is also easier to write romance than epic fantasy due to the sheer scale, so, maybe it's dying because many authors start doing something easier?
Y'all just like to push clickbait headlines and content. Cause nothing is dying until authors stop writing whatever genre.
What are you thoughts on forth wings?
Epic fantasy is evolving, just as books and how they are being marketed are evolving.
Personally, I think the fantasy genre as a whole feels like an umbrella such as fiction these days. Yes fantasy fits under fiction, but it also has so many more sub-gernes than so many other genres that fit under fiction. Romantasy or say, urban fantasy can still have Epic Fantasy elements, qualifying it as epic fantasy and many do!
Fantasy and epic fantasy, both traditionally and indie published, are evolving with the help of authors of color, women and those of the LGBTQ+ community.
The genre looks different today because so many people are telling their version of epic fantasy with voices that have been sequestered for so long.
I personally am writing a story myself. Why do I call it a story and not a book? This is because I don't know how long it's gonna be. After a certain point it may be better for me to make it multiple books. Or I might be able to fight it into one really big book. But who wants to pick up a single book that has a million words? I wouldn't mind it. But I am fifty chapters in about 50k words and I don't think i am close to done at all.
Granted I have taken inspiration from the asian lightnovels. So that may affect how I write it as well. As those are all epic in length.
When I think epic fantasy, I don't define it by what the story is about, but by the length. If it isn't of a certain length it doesn't feel like epic fantasy to me. So limiting the word count doesn't make sense to me. As if the epic fantasy is just as long as other forms of fantasy then it makes less sense to say this story is an epic high fantasy, a epic scifi, or even epic romance fantasy. As to me my first experierence with epic fantasy was the high epic fantasy. But I have read so many other epic fantasies at this point.
What makes them feel epic isn't swords, magic, tech, or anything else. It is their length.
Working on a fantasy with a team of characters, an expanding world full of adventure, creatures, cultures - no diversity quotas, and world changing events. There will be a minor magic system based on physical implants, swords/daggers, & fire arms from 1800s. I say 1800s because this time frame will be that off a golden period; scientific advancement. This will also serve to limit singular impact of any one person while creatures range from typical animals , beasts, dinosaurs, things you would classify as monsters, & finally dragons. Dragons will be massive and not the small miserable crap you see in todays movies. Characters will be required to think strategically and out of the box similar to a D&D session crossing into dangerous game hunting. Dont know that you would classify it as epic fantasy or something crossing into sci-fi but I want to emphasize adventure and exploration. Would anyone be interested in something like this?
I'm fine with it because Sword & Sorcery is returning in the underground, and that was always more redonk and fun anyways.
There's a lot of gatekeeping in fantasy. Not everyone wants another Viking or Roman story about conflicted men at war. Heaven forbid we have women characters with romance plots too.
There are plenty of non-Roman, non-Viking books with female protagonists and/or strong female fronting characters.
Don't think it's necessarily gatekeeping. For example, I grew up on the Arthurian Mythos, where romance is a really central to the story, and I loved it. I mean, one of my favorite authors used to be Marion Zimmer Bradley, and her books are full of women with romantic plots. And a lot of fantasy has always had that part, and we (I mean people my age) never had any problem with that. The thing with most of what's nowadays called Romantasy is that it isn't fantasy first and foremost with a romantic (sub-)plot being part of it, but that it is basically love stories with a thin veil of fantasy smeared unto it. Probably also doesn't help that a lot of it constantly adresses all those basic instincts with all the sex scenes, instead of focusing on the story. Also, they completely ruined vampires.
And if you don't care about that, romantasy just isn't for you. Wouldn't necessarily be a problem, but if you're constantly bombarded with the stuff you don't like by all the platforms you would go to find new stuff to read, I think it's hard to not get angry at least a few times. And that's when you get called a gatekeeper. The thing is I'm not. I don't mind if Romantasy is as successful as it is these days. I just wished that everyone did it like goodreads now does it and separates it from the rest of fantasy to stop it from overshadowing the rest of the genre
What is epic fantasy?
I honestly am even more disappointed by this, this felt like you dragging matt to prove your own points. I would love to see the proof in your reasoning, besides my author friend said this. And it's the same five author friends. That's not a large enough sample size. Also you doubled down on romantasy not being the same as epic fantasy. When most romantasy is epic fantasy. There was also no reason for you to keep pointing out that you don't like romantasy in this, your taste shouldn't be relevant to a video like this. I also can name a bunch of 5 book series recently that are epic fantasy the thing is you wouldn't count them cause they are "romantasy". Fourth wing for example as one of those... Lady of darkness. All of SJM is interconnected the way the cosmere is. (and has been since her debut) Crowns of Nyaxia is a six book series, The Bridge Kingdom is 6 books. The plated prisoner is 5 books long. From Blood and Ash has 2 series connected both over 5 books long. Romantasy can and often is very much be a subgenre of epic fantasy. Maybe you personal view and bubble on what is epic fantasy is dead. But epic fantasy as a whole is still going. When I pick up epic fantasy I'm looking for sprawling world building, politics stretching across borders, intricate details, characters I am rooting for. I want those same things out of romantasy. I mean GOT has more s*x than most of the romantasy I read...... tbh I dont think I've picked up an epic fantasy before that doesn't revolve some what around romance...... so why when its written from a woman is it looked upon so differently?
I won't be able to respond to all your points but I am really sorry to hear that you are disappointed but it sounds like this might be an area where we might have to agree to disagree. I tried my best to emphasise in this video that I see the rise of romantasy as a general good thing and there is nothing wrong with loving both! I have always found your channel as fantastic since you promote more genres than I do and I will keep watching your videos for inspiration.
I did ask Matt for permission before making a response video and he said I should go for it! I really tried my best to not come across as disrespectful to Matt! It is always challenging to make a rebuttal without coming across as "negative" but I tried my best. I hope most people will see it didn't come from a place of malice but rather a place of wanting to further the discussion along!
Thanks for your comment Cassidy. I wish you all the best.
LOL, here we go, playing the woman card.
Crown of Nyaxia was the first that comes to mind as a recent contender as venn diagramming epic fantasy and romance. The Helen Scherer series as well (I can’t think of the name)…. Idk I think I need some other people who read epic fantasy AND “romantasy” traditionally AND self published. I follow quite a few women who have a broad reading scope and I would love to see what they think about this discourse
@@availandco ToriTalks has a video called Where Did Epic Fantasy Go? with Johanna Reads where they have a live discussion about the topic. It's really good and goes into a lot more detail to the nuances of this topic.
I said this last time, but I still stand by it. Book genres are cyclical. Epics will have their turn in the sun again.
Well check out the secrets of silver clouds for a new take on fantasy, why not take a chance on a new author? The book is currently in early access
Why does any of this matter? If you are not an author and you don’t work in the publishing industry, all you have is anecdotal evidence and impressions. It’s obvious you’re more interested in making videos/money than you are in reading and reviewing books.
That last sentence was a huge leap in logic, how would you know?
@@arthurhaag9434 If you glance at his list of uploads, most of his videos are “Top 10” lists and whining about female fantasy authors gaining more popularity than male “epic fantasy” authors. That’s how I know. This is more a drama channel than a book channel. Facts are facts, America 🤷
@@eruditearchive what is the problem with top 10 list? They get more views because more people enjoy watching it. Why would you make this about gender, doesnt even make sense, he is just saying that epic fantasy is less atractive to publishers that romance, and in just 2 vídeos out of 100s. How can you be so mad about a simple video of this guy telling some normal opinions
@@arthurhaag9434 The problem for me personally is when a channel primarily puts out flashy videos like top 10 lists, I see someone who is trying to get as many views as possible/game the algorithm/make it big on UA-cam. It is inauthentic. There are genuine booktubers aplenty that don’t care about this stuff, who talk about books, reading, and their reading life in a genuine way, and that is the type of book content I want to consume. This guy is a hack who “reads” to make flashy videos and cash in on genuine book lovers’ love of reading. I’m sorry you can’t see through this guy’s facade but when I discovered him a few years ago, I smelled the scam right away and unsubscribed.
@nealsteplaws that's how it sounds to me, too. I look at his lists of best epic fantasy, all written why white men and whining about romantasy which we all know is predominantly written by women. And he's not the only booktuber doing it. If there's a market for these tropes and they raked in millions of dollars why wouldn't these authors use that to their advantage? I've been waiting for authors like GRRM to finish his epic fantasy series and he and others seem to have no interest in finishing their books. People keep pretending as if publishing isn't a business, not a charity organization. Romance has foot the bill for years and people go put of their way to whine and be snobbish towards the genre.
This looks like hostage video where Viking is held on gunpoint by Rebecca Yarros
I think the reason why people react negatively on your video was because literature and publishing is a high risk buisness. So, if someone says "this genre is dying" and that then becomes a discourse - that will deter investors from that genre. It is a self forfilling prophesy. So once you started to say that, all these people that have money invested in that type of literature must speak out and try to prove to you, and their investors, that yeah no this is not in fact dying - is not in fact a bad investment.
Nah you are correct. It is dying and any who say otherwise is lying to themselves
I checked out the guys video. Talking about wood pulp demand being the real reason why publishers are asking for less pages. What kind of argument is that called? I saw the video and I knew what you were trying to say. It's good that people are picking apart and reacting to your videos.
HOW DARE YOU HAVE AN OPINION
🤣🤣
Upfront I dont agree with this video, and this can be potentially dangerous. I think this is missing the mark with what, at least, my own criticism was in the original video. Since this is now a formal argument, I will comment on that this response is more experience of a small limited sample size, which can and is probably leading to bias. This can be more hurtful, and leads can lead to marginalized communities possibly being silenced or not considered. Opinions are fine but need to be stated as such, but this is being stated as fact with little no cited evidence, which is dangerous from a community sense.
What a slew of comments!
Personally, I liked the video. 🙂
It seems obvious that the old era of fantasy, of which we typically associate epic fantasy with, is all but over apart from a few notable exceptions. These books tended to cater more to male adolescent readers and typically featured male protagonists, even when the writers were female (like the great Ursula Le Guin ). Today, just go into a bookstore and see for yourself. Nowadays, more women read than men, they have higher literacy, and the hard-to-accept truth is that not as many men read in general, let alone fantasy. By contrast, women's reading rates have increased, they purchase far more books, and publishers are businesses and have to publish in line with this demand. Since the early 2000s, massively successful YA fiction, written by women for women, increasingly began to comprise fantasy and supernatural themes and these directly grew into all of the booming Romantasy hybrid genres of today which dominate the field. These books skew a little shorter as the focus is on romantic relationships, rather than on traditional fantasy world-building. None of this is bad per se, just a reflection of changing times.
Great video Johan
Thanks mate!
This was such a disappointing follow up video. You didn't bring any additional proof or evidence of causation that isn't hearsay or from anyone new. It appeared that you made this video just to primarily disagree with someone else's opinion and to push your own thoughts and biases. Which is fine in an opinion video, but you displayed this as an essay video where you did research to get your viewpoints across. From my point of view, you esstentially doubled down and wanted to reemphasize what you had already said in a different way without doing too much more research. A great video you may want to watch is a liveshow by ToriTalks.
And with your thoughts on romantasy, I think you need to read more of them before you can comment on whether or not they are epic fantasy. Actually, you needed to define what you think epic fantasy is in more detail and then define what you think romantasy is. Because if you did that, maybe you'd discover a few things about romantasy that you weren't aware of. Romantasy readers read romantasy for more than just the smut. I will let you know that I dislike smut scenes. I skip them, but I love the stories, the characters, the themes, and the world epic romantasy books have introduced me to.
When did he say romantasy readers read the genre for the smut? He never used that term. As someone who has read romantasy quite a bit and has been steeped in the romance community for a very long time, he is right in saying that the genre expectations are different when someone picks up an epic fantasy book and a romantasy. They are formulated with different audiences in mind. Romantasy clearly has to focus on the chemistry and the romantic and/or sexual relationship between the main characters. Epic fantasy focuses on other aspects of fantasy more, even if it contains some sort of romantic subplot.
@@angelxxsin He never really stated what different things romantasy readers and epic fantasy readers are looking for in books. I'm assuming smut because in his previous video and other videos he mentioned Fourth Wing (which is his prime example for romantasy), he talks about and quotes intimate scenes or says things to the like in reference to romantasy. That is why I'd like him to clarify, hence why I'd like him to define epic fantasy and romantasy in these videos. He leaves a lot up to interpretation and it can be harmful to others.
@@natcommon fair enough
Epic Fantasy may be dying, but the real shame is that competent writers are becoming less and less prominent in favor of straightforward, dumbed down, low vocabulary, non-descriptive, poorly if at all edited works from people who probably never finished the tenth grade. And from what I've seen, many of the top booktubers are leading the charge in moving this trend forward. I unsubbed to all other booktubers (with the exception of you) this week because it has become obscenely clear to me that not only do they not care about the adequacy of the writing itself, but I am 100% convinced none of them have any idea what the difference between competent and decent prose is.
The words "epic fantasy" and an image of Fourth Wing just makes me laugh. 😂 Two things couldn't be more polar opposites!
Epic Fantasy is dying because men don't read fiction anymore. With the market being dominated by women, it's only natural that genres that traditionally veer towards the male demographic would fall by the wayside.
Think you guys have missed something, agents aren’t looking for epic fantasy anymore. Agents are the first gatekeepers.
Why are you making these videos?
Don’t take it personal. Matt has a style but it’s funny. 😁
Ok, but make a real list of epic fantasy series by publishing order how many we had in each year to read in reality? Because one thing is common in you two with Petrik: you are reading a backlog. I’m not that much. I read fantasy for 30 years. So I look at this a bit differently and I give a bit more credit to Matt. In each year we didn’t have that much of these famous stories to read what now you call epic fantasy and are so big and intimidating. Or take Asian Saga - Shogun… read it 25 years ago. With the following books. And you have a sci-fi backlog too to finish. From Asimov to Lem and so on… 🤷♂️
Back in the late 70’s I was reading Lord of the Rings, Anne McCaffrey’s Pern books, Ursula LeGuin Earthsea, Roger Zelazny’s Chronicles of Amber and in the 80‘s we actually had an explosion of fantasy. Stephen R Donaldson’s Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Mists of Avalon, David Eddings‘ Belgariad, Terry Brooks‘ Shannara, Hickman & Weiss’ Dragon lance, Raymond E.Feist’s Riftwar and Empire Series, GGK Fionavar, David Gemmel’s Drennai Saga, and Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow and Thorn just to name a few. There were absolutely loads more. We certainly had no dearth of epic Fantasy in the 80s ! Then came along Wheel of Time in the early 90’s which kicked off even more epic fantasy!
@@SuperPuddingcat and? I asked how many they actually read of those so called epic fantasy stories? Not much. I did read Drenai but it’s not that, it’s separated mini series in it again. I read dragonlance it’s not that, short game books of D&D golden age. I did read a lot of what you say. It’s not that. Wheel of Time came and that what they are talking about. Don’t forget what are the parameters. It has to be a long book! Actually Drenai is not. Dragonlance is not etc.. those are short books. Shannara is probably fitting but it’s also meh… half. Because of its many entry points… is it really the same structure as Wheel of Time? No. It’s close but no. It’s a collection of trilogies. So again fits what Matt says. First it was a trilogy and then again was a trilogy… etc… it’s not 1 long arc… Raymond E. Feist… he wrote it until now. He just finished it recently. Again: relatively short books, but even then: very trope-y, it becomes a copy-paste thing fast of its own and from the golden age of D&D. And Earthsea? It’s a short story. 200 pages each and written in 2 parts. Ursula Le Guin was a master storyteller without doubt. Yet she wrote only a few short books in fantasy. I have the collection here in one with illustrations. It’s shorter than Lord of the Rings+Hobbit. Basically the First Law is way more an epic fantasy here and so is Dresden Files. It’s almost 20 books and one long story. Will of the Many has that potential in it. But at least will be a trilogy. The thing is: it’s not necessarily the publisher. To write Wars of Light and Shadow took a lifetime for Janny Wurts as she just said. That’s how it works. Because one thing to write those low quality novels like Drizzt in a row, but high end English literature? On the level of Malazan or that? Or even a story of Wheel of Time? Now that’s not going the same time. For the fast writer Sanderson took 2 years to write Stormlight 5. And he had plans for it and no other things to worry about if he wanted to work. So… yes. It’s very much possible that there are epic fantasy stories in progress and we don’t know about it. The Wheel of Time category is very rare and was back then. We don’t have many series to recommend to the readers today yet both of us read a lot in the past. If someone tells you to recommend something like Wheel of Time from the past? What can you say? And I mean it! Something like that! You said we had a lot of things. So? Why don’t we recommend a lot? 👀Because only a few are quality books. So is romantasy today! Nothing changed.
@@nazimelmardi I understood your comment to mean that back in the day we didn’t have much famous stories to read either and I disagree with that. I don’t think fantasy has to be one long arc, that it has to be longer than 3 books or that each book has to be a huge tome in order to be classified as epic or famous. I made this same comment on the first video . If all the epic tales that went before do not count because they were not “big” enough and only the likes of Wheel of Time, A Song if Ice and Fire, The Faithful and the Fallen, Malazan, Stormlight etc are considered epic that is a very narrow classification of “epic” and you are correct, epic fantasy in those terms never really existed long enough for it to be considered as a dying genre.
@@SuperPuddingcat I use this method to make a point to establish what Matt said. Before this “romantasy” thing back at the day there was D&D and we played a lot that gave a strong base for books. Not all were directly related like Salvatore or Feist or in fact Dragonlance but in general had some similar stuff. So there is always a common factor.
Now the main thing is female presence in marketing and management of the publishing industry is one. The second is TikTok like it or not. But not in the way we interpreted it. While back then we shared our thing (RPG) as boys/guys so now the girls on TikTok. It’s a very female dominated area the booktok. That’s why if any man starts an account with epic fantasy they welcome him very much. He is rare. Yet basically that fuels the romantasy. And not just romantasy but in general contemporary romance - We see you Coleen Hoover. Yes, these books are cheap in writing and they know it, but… in UK the q1 in fantasy ended with the win of Sarah j Maas again in book selling. Period. Guess who was the second? Yes, Rebecca Yarros. 4th Wing and its sequel… it’s killing the epic fantasy and sci-fi but not the way he thinks or Petrik thinks. It’s because they go after the money and the boys/men literally can’t find their interest in the stores. It’s not there. Because we are not showing it in the virtual world that we want it. Aka TikTok’s female dominance and again the irony in the gender identity in the employment of that many female workers in marketing. Yes, it’s really a thing that in publishing of fantasy the decision makers are women in majority. 👀 so that also changed. But there is one other factor. This industry was always extremely slow in adapting things. So they followed trends but very slowly and very badly. See what they did after Harry Potter. Everything became YA including Wheel of Time…. They learn but it takes time. First the dollar next the adjustment properly. Give them a 3-5 years and let’s see because this booktok hype can go around plus women grow up (a lot are very young there) and we also started to appear on it and gain audience. If we can balance it and authors!!! appear too not just romantasy? It can turn back. Sanderson already there and started to create content, comment to the fantasy girls accounts. A new sci-fi author joined a book club of sisters personally and with that gained thousands of readers immediately. That’s how you do it. ☝️I told before to Petrik. I blame the booktubers too. They ignored TikTok and looked down when it was time. Now we have the consequences. 2 billion videos there and growing about books. That includes authors new authors (4th wing is you see came from there and pushed down every fantasy) .
So instead of this video? Let’s go guys and turn the romantasy girls to epic readers! Create on booktok! Follow Sanderson’s lead. He is right again about business.
Jeez man, just let it rest. You made a bad video that annoyed people. Learn and move on rather than patronize people.
I actually find the conversation this video spawned quite pertinent and I'm a romance reader. It'd be better to say "he made a video that annoyed people". Drop the "bad" from the sentence. Just because something is annoying to some, that doesn't mean it's bad or a conversation that shouldn't be had.
@@angelxxsin but it’s my view that the video was bad. So I will say it was bad.
@@TRUc972 I mean you can say your name is Princess Banana Hammock. And my opinion is I don't think "bad" applies to the video, but that's me, luv. You do you.
@@angelxxsin how did you know my name was Princess Banana Hammock?
@@TRUc972 just a hunch
Romantaticy? Is the same or different to gender swap lgbt stuff? All great if there are really fans out there for it. Its just a wonder, people really read that? It might actually be our Grandmothers....
I prefer Matt by far, he doesnt appear fake and highly edited.
I started to read 4th wings and now I have to finish it because I dont leave books in mid way bit it is hard … I found annoying when there is so much emphasis in a love story