Point Source, Constant Curvature Array, or Line Array | Which One Should You Choose?
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
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01:37 - Three Speaker Types Overview
10:12 - Point Source Strengths & Weaknesses
14:21 - Constant Curvature Array Strengths & Weaknesses
17:49 - Line Array Strengths & Weaknesses
Thank you for taking the time to do this. I’m so tired of hearing some people prescribe a line array as the “fix” for every venue, and others claiming point source is the only way. It’s all about the application
You're very welcome. Yup, pick the right tool for the job, you nailed it.
As it is with everything in life. There is no one perfect solution, like how people say we need to switch every vehicle to electric. Not EVERY vehicle..
A guest engineer who was a Clair Bros veteran and I were talking about my niche of business in live sound reinforcement and I told him I use the JBL VRX 932LA as my primary cab. He responded telling me that Clair Bros. actually designed these boxes and sold the tech to JBL AND that Clair kept their own version but it uses a 14” woofer instead of the 12”. Yes, you read that right. A 14” instead of a 12”. No one can dispute the R&D reputation of either JBL or Clair Bros. As JBL together with Altec pioneered the original loudspeaker in the first place, followed up by the FACT that MOST either currently boutique or were in the past and now high volume brand companies including EAW, Clair Bros., and plenty of others, started their newly designed boxes using JBL drivers. The first Kenton Forsythe (yes, the KF of EAW acclaim) 850s used JBL drivers, but ultimately when they start moving lots of product they need to reduce overhead and try to find another source, which is where RCF gained notoriety as the supplier to many EAW cabs, although it must be noted or argued that driver to driver, very few can compare to the musicality of JBL and EV drivers. They might get loud, but they don’t sound as good on the way there. Anyway, can anyone shed some light on that claim that Clair Bros. designed the VRX cabs? I love them and for my needs I have never needed more. I used to wish that I could could change the splay angle until I realized that they were CCAs and were basically “perfect” by design. I have yet to hear ANY other cab setup where you could stand right in front of them or 100 feet away with very little tonality difference to the ear, meaning they weren’t harsh up front and dint get noticeably dull at some distance. I know that there are compromises with a line array, as each “partner” cab is having a “dispute” with one or more cabs in the line, not necessarily the neighbor of course, but by frequency dependent wavelength, obviously, SOMEWHERE and in multiple places, zones, levels, even frequency response outcomes, there will be problems, and these are bound by the laws of physics. It is for this reason that the drivers have gotten progressively smaller, as CONTROL is more manageable with the longer, lower frequency wavelengths using smaller drivers, which equal a smaller “baffle” if you will. You can’t manipulate every six inches within one 12” or 15” driver, but you can using three 6” or three 5” drivers, not to mention back when it was L’Acoustics and Vertec with 15” low frequency drivers, you had to have a line a trillion feet tall and weighing a zillion pounds to get any REAL control, and even then there were compromises. I have listened to some big ass line arrays setup by the best in the biz, and was amazed at how BAD they sounded in different places. Harsh and shrill and absent LF info in one place, muddy and hollow in another, and flat response balanced mostly around FOH, naturally. But only some small percentage of the audience were paying for tickets around FOH. And isn’t that what this is all about in the first place? Pleasing every single seat? I have heard huge rigs sound great everywhere, but at the expense of throw, which I think is the better of the evils. They throw farther than any old trap horizontal array anyways, so what kind of dick measuring contest is this anyway, and whoever said that mixing at 112dbc at FOH was a mandatory minimum SPL or more importantly volume at the ear. From my wide ranging and high density 28 years of hardcore experience, the people who want to be crushed with SPL find a way to get to the front, and NEVER have I had one single person come from the back of any house and say they wanted it louder. Never. I HAVE had assholes sitting in non-designated seating areas 90 degrees off axis while I was mixing the local orchestra outdoors complain he couldn’t hear it. Mind you, he was sitting 30 feet off stage right, with a 70 piece symphony orchestra playing. I should have told him to transport back to 1820. I asked where he was sitting, he pointed, I couldn’t believe it and asked again, and I told him that I didn’t think that was a designated seating area. He told me that’s where he wanted to sit. I happened to at the time (2008) have an EON under my FOH table just as a cue for my non-soundcheck check. I told the guy I would come check in his spot shortly. I went to my trailer and grabbed two 100’ XLR and two 100’ stingers, and went to grab that EON. My assistant knew what I was about to do and stopped me and my impulsive “I’ll show you you stupid mothefucker, you want sound, I’ll give you sound that will make you bald!!” and yanked the EON from me and told me to ignore him and mix the symphony. Cooler heads prevailed. Anyway, I feel like the whole idea of line arrays has lost its focus, been abused, and has become the only accepted cabinets, regardless of the venue. Short throw, very wide venues are not he place for line arrays where horizontal trap cabs would be a better fit. Even having multiple hangs of arrays with outfills are a compromise unless spaced far enough apart to evade cross cancellation or worse yet, deep and wide bandwidth comb filtering. And by the time they are far enough apart to reduce those problems, you have a hole in the frequency response that can’t be accurately filled. Point source is ALWAYS BEST, period. But that’s a loaded statement in itself. What is a point source then? Any two drivers in close company attempting to reproduce the same information will have a compromise, and then with crossovers the info is theoretically divided, but even then there is compromise, as the filters themselves have side effects. It’s all math of the highest caliber, hence the ever evolving tech ATTEMPTING to resolve these problems. The FIR technology used in many newer powered speakers to get the HF and LF drivers in relative phase comes to mind and are quite effective, allowing astonishing gain before feedback that older cabs can’t even compete with. So I return to the CCA. It might be termed an array, because it is, but as they are joined, they become more than the sum of their parts, especially when driven from one bug amp channel per side. Using separate amp channels, even when the same model of amp, does something to the unification of the sound. The impedance per channel is layered, thusly the phase response. All I know is that when I hang three VRX 932s aside and give them big Crown power, they simply sing like no other. I’ve had hangs of four, five, six, eight, RCF HDL20s, and while they sound good and make volume, they don’t “sing”, and that’s ultimately what our job is, to make the people on stage who are singing be heard louder such that a wider and deeper audience can hear them through a PA that sings accordingly. When the vocals just jump out at you clearly without a bunch of manipulation, and you can walk anywhere around and it still sounds great , you know you have a unified system. Of note, another quick Clair story. A guy brought his support package with a very notable tour to a 1000 seat venue where I was house guy. This was maybe 7 years ago. We had four dbl 18” JBL subs, but he went ahead and brought his pair of Clair dbl 18” subs in. He asked me to remove the pair we had which were mobile. I did. Before hearing his subs I asked him about why he only wanted to use his pair. They were even placed in a kind of compromised position, on stage, at the downstage corners, where they could have been easily placed on the floor, even together off stage down center. This was fixed seating room. He told me he would take one pair of these cabs over a row of anything else, or otherwise more of these cabs. he said that somehow or another, Clair had finally figured out the magic. i think the boxes were even called a. "C" something, maybe C218, the "C" being for "coherent" . And boy was he right. They sounded awesome. Just awesome. When soundcheck was almost dine he showed me how they were barely being touched, and indeed up close they sounded effortless in their sub-frequency response, and I'm not sure what filters they were using, but there was NOTHING above 90 hz coming from those cabs. Yeah theres never supposed to be anyway, but despite what others may say, get up close and listen, and info even up into the 200-300hz range is bleeding past the filters. not with these. and they were doing 25, 23 hz like nothing I've heard besides a 21" piston driven driver. Anyways, VRXs rule, screw the naysayers. They are like a point source and an array as one. To wit, any cab with more than one driver is an "array" and even one system with multiple drivers in proximity enough for frequency interaction is an "array". But if one cabinet is considered a point source, then two or three VRX932s together become "as one" and arguably become a very high SPL, very articulate, controlled beam height point source cabinet. You know that at one point in the past, Clair Bros. experimented with using just TWO 21" drivers, back to back, driven by two channels of massive amps driving the piston drivers, on U2 coliseum type gigs. it worked well as far as control of SOME bandwidth, and easily handled the needed SPL. But ultimately they didn't have the tailorable tonality that the systems guys and FOH mix guys were seeking snd had grown accustomed to. That is all. As you were.
you shoulda made that stupid mothefucker go bald!! hahaha
If I had an hour left to live I’d watch this show, because every minute feels like a lifetime.
Another advantage of a constant curvature array... Some constant-curvature arrays (like L'Acoustic A-series) can also be flipped on their side for when you need really wide coverage.
Great point!
I've had an insane imagination of overstacking JBL VRX speakers so that they could form a complete circle, and then hang'em up on their sides to form an omnidirectional speaker
Oh, and by the way, I used my VRX932s, two aside, in a tennis stadium where I have been the stage manager on many huge shows with huge hangs of world tour type line arrays, the best, from Martin, JBL, L’Acoustics, etc. I had my normal mix going on, and only had to cover maybe 500-700 people, but some were across the stadium in VIP boxes. I was mixing from my iPad of course. At 30’, I had 110+dbc. Later I went to the other side where those VIP boxes were, and one of the patrons asked if I was doing the sound from my iPad, and they thought that was neat, but also commented that it sounded amazing, and that they could hear every note and every bit of the vocals, perfectly, and even though it sounded very full and great, they were happy that it wasn’t overpowering. I measured the SPL at that spot, 175’ from the PA. 100-104dbc. I try to keep my mixes at about 100-102 with 105dbc max in the middle of the room or listening area. Enough said. The passive VRXs sound better than the powered ones by the way.
I've been a sound guy for 34 years. I did my first tour in the summer of 1989.
Eventually I was touring with big enough bands to take production on the road. I was lucky enough to get to use Showco's Prism rig from time to time.
It was a very secretive concept at the time. But it sounded great.
The way I understand it is, there were about 4 different types of trap boxes. The concept was based on a horizontal array, as opposed to the vertical arrays of today. It was explained to me that the furthest seats were the first thing tackled...and the top row(s) of speakers would address that. And each additional row would commence filling in the audience space, using various combinations of the four types of boxes, in each row, to address/alleviate phase interaction...as it worked it way down. In my mind, the coverage and sound, was far more desirable than a current line array.
I'm sure it would be cost prohibitive to do that in todays audio market... But it was very interesting technology.
Great informative video ,when I do medium to large venues I use EAW kf850 and sb850 point source speakers and large venues to festivals I use martin audio line arrays
Michael, had no idea you were on YT. You’ve come through my room with multiple artists. Although I stay anonymous on YT, I’ll say your mixes always sound great! 😊
Thank you very much for the kind words!
One of my biggest gripes with working with an audio vendor for my job is their go to "solution" (for most vendors) no matter the space or size of the environment the system would be in is to get a full range speaker line array system for long throw situations. And the room could be a 50ft depth with 14ft ceilings. Thank you for giving me the info I need to know if the vendors are scamming the company I work for lol
You got it!
Greatly appreciate your inputs. Its a great blessing.
You're very welcome!
Great clip Michael! From Barcelona
Danley Sound Labs is creating a new category you could add to these three. A point source with a high number of drivers. The Jericho J8 has 46 speakers in one box, combining to make one point source, which allows them to throw sound much further. That's why you see them in the stadiums lately. It's interesting to see where they fit into or in between the other three categories.
It is called a unity horn and achieves the best point source due to all bands feeding into the same horn but at different points . In my opinion the best speaker design yet .
Thank you Michael for the video. I have learnt immensely. Question. As an estimate, how many cabs array do you need to cover an audience of 5,000 with ground level and tier seating layout in an arena. I think it varies between venues and difficult to design a system unless you are there.
GREAT VIDEO
I HAVE A QUESTION?
Despite the differences between line array and point source being dispersion or coverage,is there any other difference between line array and point source speakers with reference to the manufacture components eg inbuilt cross over unit,voice coil ?
as you were talking about point source boxes, did you consider products like those from danley? I know that they have some very large loudspeaker enclosures that can achieve exceedingly high spl's, I know that would reduce quite a lot of the benefits from some of the other point sources that you mentioned though.
Yes, Danley makes some boxes that have INSANE SPL capabilities. I've used several of their small/mid size products, but none of their large format boxes.
Point sources can be handy in a lot of situations, but the range ratio needs to be low.
Michael, great video! I’m learning a lot from your channel. I have a question for you: how would you set 2 point source speakers (JBL EON712) in a worship gathering with the band playing in the center of the room? It is a small room, maybe 10 meters long by 5 meters wide. People will be standing around the band 360 degrees. I know it is not the best gear for the gig, but that’s all I have available to use this time. In the past I used to place the speakers at opposite corners facing the center of the room, but after all I am learning, I don’t think this is the optimal placement.
Thank you for the kind words! That's a super tough one. From a coverage standpoint, the way you had them would be best. It's very weird from a perception standpoint, however. With any other configuration you'd only be able to cover half the audience at best.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks for your answer!
I have 2 EAW KF850s, I play them side by side standing up. Would there be a significant difference if I laied the horizontally and stacked on top each other like a line array?
What an awesome video! Super informative stuff, and all explained really well.
I do have one question though. Would something like a small line array system work for smaller gigs?
An example would be using HDL20'S for a small 200 cap venue, with 2 or even just 1 on each side? Or in a venue where constant curvature would be ideal, would it still sound fairly ok with line arrays?
I am not super knowledgable about this stuff, but I'll try to answer as best as I can: line array speakers are designed to work in an array to produce a wide coverage, so the coverage of a single speaker is going to have quite a narrow vertical angle, as opposed to a speaker that was designed to work on its own. Thus, when using a line array speaker on its own, you'll need to think of it as a point source speaker with that coverage angle. This might work, but it might not work, and that depends largely on the dimensions of the space and whether you can fly the speakers, and if, to which height. As Michael said in this video, line arrays can overcome greater distance ratios (distance from the speaker to the front row vs distance from the speaker to the back row), but this does not apply to a single speaker. To increase the distance ratio a point source setup can overcome, you would typically lift the speaker in the air. Because this increases the overall distance, the difference between the distances decreases. Also, a greater vertical coverage angle of your speaker means that you can lift it up and still have it cover the entire space by angling it downwards. As line array speakers have quite a narrow vertical coverage, you would probably want to hang two of them with the upper one angled towards the back and the lower one aiming at the people in the front. If your space is not very deep, you might also get away with not flying the PA as the distance ratio is not so big in that case, and then, you won't need to worry as much about the coverage angle. However, all anyone can give you without knowing the dimensions of your space are such rough guidelines and no concrete answer. Thus, I'd recommend that you try out what could work in a prediction software such as EASE Focus 3 (it's free).
Your videos are usually very educative and informative, thank you for impacting us with vital information like this.
I'm a sound engineer for my church. I'm not professionally trained for it but I'm learning on the go. You talk so much about the science/physics of sound in your choice of words. And sometimes I get lost in your explanation. Any advice on how to understand the science of sound? And the lingos you're using?
Hey, Isaac. Great question here. You're right in that I do use a lot of "inside baseball" language. I do need to be better about using more approachable language when appropriate!
The vernacular I use is common in circles who do system design for a living and most of it stems from Bob McCarthy, who most would consider the godfather of our craft as systems engineers. His book, Sound Systems: Design & Optimization is where a TON of this comes from. That being said, I think there's a case to be made to take his language and break it down a bit more for folks who don't do this for a living.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thanks a lot for your understanding Michael.
@@isaacokunola9073 Are there any particular terms or phrases that I've used consistently that have been confusing?
Well, not exactly confusing but terms I can't claim to have a firm grasp of. Like SPL, I know it's Sound Pressure Level but I don't know the effect as it applies to the topics you explain.
SPL seems to be the least of them. But I can't quite lay my hands on the other lingo. Cause I'm not so familiar with them. But I could watch the video again to be specific.
High range ratio?
Tonal uniformity
Low/High SPL
High frequency shading
DSP
@@isaacokunola9073 That's all super helpful. Thank you so much! Maybe I could do a video of the "inside baseball" of sound system design? Or maybe put out a glossary term PDF?
Any insight on the tendency of line arrays to be generally more prone to feedback than point source? I’ve heard this brought up a few times and experienced it quite a bit myself, but I’m not clear on the technical reason for it. Is it just because people try to configure line arrays to avoid the need for fills and then end up with too much of the coverage range hitting the stage?
I wouldn't say full stop that line arrays will always get you more feedback than a point source system. There's honestly so many variables in how each could be deployed and tuned that I can't say for certain that one would be more or less stable than the other.
I have had a very poor quality experience with the VRX LAP series. Hope you had better luck than I did
Hey pal! I recently upgraded from the old JBL SRX to QSC KLA. It works amazingly for the immediate area in the stage in the bars and small outdoor places that we play, but that big-ol voice coil on the SRX throws for a literal quarter mile, whereas the QSC falls off substantially after about 100 feet. Is it realistic to use both for a big outdoor Street-Dance type setup? The clarity and dispersion on the QSCs (2 per side) are unmatched, especially this time of year when we move inside.
I guess the bottom line is, is it reasonable to set it up in such a way to use both, the big 725 JBLs for the long throw, and the QSC for short and medium? Or would that cause more issues than it is worth?
I haven't used the older SRX stuff much, but I'm not surprised with just two per side that the QSC's top out after 100ft. Like you said, they're a great box, but asking them to go beyond that is asking a lot.
In your situation I'd try and see if you could set up a delay or relay system with the SRX. Have the QSC's take care of the main portion of your audience, then have the SRX hold down the rear.
If I have to choose between the line array or towers (point source), both with subwoofers.... for a crowd of 500-1000. what would be the best pick? mostly for an outdoor event ...wedding and outdoor dance parties.
It ultimate depends on the audience size and geometry, but likely a line array in that situation if I had to shoot from the hip.
Good stuff! Even better if you could translate audio math spreadsheet to metric? Feels are a bit uncommon here at Europe 😁
That's coming out this summer!
What can you say about RCF NXL-24's column speaker stacked 2 per side versus 4 X HDL6's per side? Would line array still get you more DB's and coverage?
I'd say definitely the four HDL6-A's per side. You don't to overlap two column speakers horiztonally next to each other.
Great video
Thanks for your video
You're welcome!
Hey dude! Thanks for the video. Any experience or opinions on the Bose F1 Flexible Array Loudspeaker? I don't currently have the ability to hang stuff but my point source system isn't doing it for me as we are starting to play larger rooms.
It looks like a cool system, but I've never used it. Having a variable coverage pattern is nice. Is this something you're looking to purchase?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio gotcha. Yes I'm planning on it.
At 19:26, you should have noted, by your equation you provided, that a longer line array doesn’t just mean you can focus more mid and low energy, but as you said, line array length equals any frequency whose wavelength is the same. But another problem is that it’s not that simple, as we are equating the height of a stack of speakers with 72 degrees vertical coverage at that wavelength, regardless of what’s going on in between. What if you had one cab that had a 6” LF, and one 1.5” inch HF driver, but the cab is 18” tall, and they call it a line array. The LF drivers are easy enough to sort out, as unless you fold the LF driver, which they DID DO with Vertec cabs, especially the later series, was the mid drivers were indeed folded to allow more drivers emitting forward focused or at least as controlled as possible within one cab, forward and with a pattern. But what if my hypothetical speaker? Are three 1.5 drivers, on a “lens” or “waveguide” AKA the horn, that’s let’s say 90 wide by 60 vertical degrees in separate 18” tall cabs with one 6” driver spaced equidistant from the Hf driver and the edged, meaning one driver 6” from the edge and the other 12” from the same edge. And of course how to do you define where the “driver” “starts”. When you could have a myriad shaped waveguides, but lets just mean the driver itself, the voice coil. You’ll notice that the voice coils on very small drivers meant for high SPL are relatively big compared to the driver cone or diaphragm itlsef. Note the old JBL 2445 HF was massive, but that’s a different story, but also why big line arrays don’t need huge voice coiled HF drivers because it’s really the BAFFLE that matters. So would my example still get you the figure you stated? The drivers would be 18” apart on 18” cabs. So that’s 3 feet or 372hz. Are three of those cabs and those three 6” drivers going to give me 72degrees of beam at that frequency/array height, now 4 feet, so down to 279hz? I doubt it. Maybe so. I doubt it. It really should be a more defined and qualified equation, but I like it. So what does that mean for the rest of the frequencies above that height? Do 450, 600, get progressively tighter beams, maybe like at 4’ everything above 279hz gets progressively narrow, would be like 48 degrees, (2/3 of 72 degrees) for 450, and then maybe like 36 degrees for 600hz? It needs to be defined what makes for a line array cab in the first place, and box height isn’t just dictated by driver sizes and desired orientation, but also desired spacing. If they don’t want 12” drivers closer than 14” apart, center on center, then they’ll engineer in an inch above and below in the cab such that they can’t be oriented that way. My VRXs are such a box, and that’s where I get that number. I, sure they used a combo of depth, angle, as easy box, any box, is really a progressively smaller subwoofer enclosure which just happens to also house a HF driver. They may or may not want 120hz fighting itself to work. But, at 858hz, you have a 14” tall array, and each line array is supposed to have “control” down to at least 1k, hence the three stacked horns with 14 vertical inches in a VRX. Hmmm. Also note that the JBL LF drivers in that line are shaped uniquely from conventional LF drivers. The front outer parts of the cone are similar to conventional cones as far as the depth of dish, but towards the driver the depth of the dish steepens dramatically, and I think it’s bevies they want the drivers to be a certain distance apart, as in the voice coils, such that they have figured out how low the HF drivers will control frequency and beam, and then they might determine that say, my 858hz example, they want below that frequency to be steered as well, passively as much as possible. The higher the density, the lower the frequency you can control. When you force a fixed splay, you also dictate the distance between the LF drivers, and as such, the drivers are tilted back with the drivers slightly closer to each other, and if the driver is further away from the front edge of the cone, or deeper into the cab, the closer the drivers will be. In the VRXs, when stacked, the LF voice coils are roughly 10” apart, so does that mean that those three as their own line array, totaling 30” center to center, would have a 72 degree pattern at 446.5 hz? Maybe. But just calling the height of a line array as one of the parts of the equation is opening up a lot of variables. That’s all. Problem is we are assuming that each cab has a LF driver with the cab ats close to the edge of the driver as is practical, and then one or more HF drivers packed as such also. In the VRX, the HF drivers are at the very back of the cab, with a manifold looking waveguide which ends up the height of the cab, and in fact, uniquely to the VRX and Vertec, that waveguide doesn’t have a horizontal border at the bottom and top of each cab, yet another contributing factor to them sounding “as one”. When stacked in the CCA, the HF section looks like and sounds like one long continuous HF driver, roughly 50” in arch. With drivers in a “line” array, all vertical, the relationship between the distance of the drivers can’t be changed, which is where the splay adjustments make a huge difference, and it’s as much a contributing factor in vertical coverage as the degree of the cabinets top and bottom edges, which are no doubt indeed designed around this factor. The old Clair Piston Box was 2 x 12” drivers and a HF driver and the boxes were extremely deep and narrow. These were horizontal array types, so the splay was a horizontal splay. But closing the rear of the cabs all together gave a wider pattern and putting space between the rears narrowed the coverage, which might seem obvious but it was less because of the shape of the cab but the distance between the drivers dictating where some kind of pattern control would get down to. It’s so da,n complicated but so damned simple at the same time. But certainly not linear.
Thanks for all the detail here. I agree that in reality the simple equation I offered gets complexed, but I still think it's a helpful rule of thumb!
Their are some speakers with fixt curves with different angles like the L-acoustics arcs, or A10 and A15. There you can have 10 or 30 degrees lind up.
Yes, totally right.
please i need a video how to calculate how many speaker i can connect together in one sub ?
the important information about line array before i buy it
I have 2 QSC K10.2 K2's 2,000 watt speakers and i have these for a few years now and i do love these speakers. I am thinking of at somepoint on gonna upgrade tthe Mackie Thump Mackie SRM V-Class Series, 15-Inch 2,000W High-Performance Loudspeaker, Powered-Black SRM215 V-Class. 2 of them
The K series from QSC is great stuff. I've never used that Mackie series.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio One of my friends used to have an ALTO 12 1100 watt powered speaker and holly shit that speaker got some powerful bass. Ihaven't heard the mackies in person yet but i played some of my music on his ALTO 12 Powered PA speaker and i was amazed by how it soudned. But, i wanna get a couple Mackie powered speakers and maybe a mackie sub next too. I want a pair of the 2,000 watt Mackie speakers and the 1,600 watt mackie 18 inch sub. But it is just sooo expensive!
Hi Michael! What is range ratio? Do you have a video explaining what range ratio is in more detail?
Hey, Destin! Yup, I explain it in this video. It's the first term of the 10. - ua-cam.com/video/3u_jQCshHXw/v-deo.html
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Wonderful! Thank you for the uber quick response. Dude I'm loving your channel. Your videos are super informative and helpful. Can't wait to watch more!
@@destinmoffett1593 You're very welcome!
What about a dual 8" Line array vs dual 10" Line Array? Which sonic-ally sounds better?
The 10" would seem to get better bass response, but I see a lot of dual 8" Line Arrays being sold. Thoughts?
I've heard both dual 8" rigs and dual 10" rigs sound amazing, as well as terrible. The only thing that clearly separates the two classes is that you can generally get more total level out of a dual 10" than a dual 8", but manufacturers (like Nexo for instance) have opted to do a single 12".
It really comes down to how a specific manufacturer has their product lines laid out, but in general you can bet on a bigger driver giving you more headroom and level. There are some exceptions to the rule, of course. Meyer's new PANTHER array is a 12" box, but has the SPL capability of their 15" flagship box, LEO.
That makes sense. I've also seen the L 'Acoustics Focus series. They are almost like they took a standard Trap and put a Line array compression driver wave guide on them to make a constant curvature box like the VRX932's accept they are 15" or 10". It serves a purpose!
Awesome video, been looking for someone to explain this. I’m currently using 2 qsc 12.2’s and a ks118 sub but I have been doing bigger weddings, would you recommend going up to a constant curvature speaker? If so any recommendations? I have been looking at mackie drm series, presonus cdl 12p , and yorkvill. Thanks for your vids ! A lot of good info !
Thank you so much! Do you feel like the K12.2's are "running out of gas" when trying to push to bigger rooms?
I've heard good things about the CLD 12p's, but haven't used them. If you're not able to fly the speakers anyway, the biggest thing you'd gain from constant curvature is being able to focus your high frequencies towards your audience more (less reflections vertically since it's a tighter vertical pattern than the K12.2's) and some possible SPL gain.
In any case, getting your speakers up as high as you can on sticks (if you can't fly) will help even out the sound throughout your space and also help you cover a larger area. I'd invest in tall stands first before getting new speakers!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio yea I just feel like they don’t fill up the room or at least not at the venues that I’ have been working lately . A lot of the venues I’m doing have high ceilings or outdoor barn venues…I’ll have to try putting them up higher for my next event . I just hate having them stick out so much lol
@@Eric_Morado I know it's an eyesore, but I promise the height will help!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you 🙏🏼 , I’m going to definitely try that this Saturday to put them up higher… but i think in a few months I’ll have to end up buying something else that holds up a little more at bigger events. As always very good info
@@Eric_Morado You're very welcome!
Thank you for all your vids i learn a lot from all your tuto..i am from mauritius small island in the indian ocean ..my question is why is one line array box so expensif compare to a point source speaker..
Hmmm, I don't know the answer to that for sure, but I'm guessing it's because it has more drivers in it. A two-way line array box will have two woofers plus three compression drivers, or a ribbon. So, more parts?
Great videos! Question.....wouldn't a constant curvature array be a multi box point source, seeing all the boxes would have a common center point behind the boxes?
Yup, you're right from a technical standpoint. I guess we need better categories!
👏😎👏
the VRX Its been on the market for a lil over 15yrs. I got mine on 2008.
what do you think of the DB Technologies VIO X206. ill say very versatile as a point of source and line array.
I've actually never used that speaker before, so I can't help you there!
i wanna buy speaker for my band wich one yal recommended
Hello,
Thank you for the explicit, detailed description,.....One thing you forgot to mention is that ALL systems you outlined CANNOT achieve the very task they were designed for. They can give you a lot of sound, throw it reeeeeaaaaaaallllly far, but NONE OF THEM CAN PLAY MUSIC.
They CANNOT play STEREO music (the way was created by the artist) for more than 20% of the audience that are equidistant between the speakers. Everybody Left or right of the venue hear ONE channel only,....that is worst than mono, that at least is a summation of both channels. All of the software sims show only the "throw" and the dispersion of the sound. NONE of them show any Stereo image information, because there is none.
It is similar to going to the movies and only 20% of the people that sit in the middle can see ALL the colors. The ones on the left will see ONLY red yellow and orange and the ones on the right will see ONLY green, blue and violet.
So, welcome to the pre 1930 audio show,....Line array half of the music show.
Sorry to bust your bubble.
You're extrapolating a studio mixing/listening environment mindset to live sound, which is the main flaw in your argument.
Sound field imaging is but one of many factors in creating an engaging live mix. There's many more factors and tradeoffs to consider.
People don't go to live concerts for stereo separation... they go to live concerts for the experience, friendship, maybe for the volume, and maybe for the rumble from the subwoofers.
The only things I allow to go stereo into my board are guitar / bass pedals & keyboards that have factory installed stereo outputs with generally well balanced sound. Everything else goes mono, no panning, so that as many people as possible in the audience get a similar, enjoyable experience.
I work with some junior engineers that love to pan instruments and vocals all over the place. The only thing this does is create audience complaints. Guy standing in the crowd on the left side of the stage says to me "Hey, sir, you are controlling the audio, right? I can't hear the lead guitar" (who is on the right side of the stage). I pull up the mix on my iPad & sure enough, one of the junior engineers thought it would be cool to pan the 2 guitars to their respective sides of the stage. Faawk. Stupid. Don't do it. I tell them not to, and they still keep doing it cause it sounds cool from the mix position. The audience is more important than your ego and your personal preferences at the sound board. If you are not mixing for them, then you're not doing your job, and you don't deserve to be at the controls.
Mike can you do a video on speaker placement using column I have a lot of column speaker or is the same as point source
There's a lot of similarities, but some key differences in column speakers that I think are worth exploring. I can make a video on that in the future!
Thanks I would like that
Yeah, column speaker video would be great 👍
@@lassew4497 You got it!
Do you think the bose L1 pro 8 is a value for money im in the market of a Bluetooth speakers for our company new years party thanks in advance and merry Christmas and a happy new year!
I've never used one, but I have a few colleagues that have and had got great results.
Thanks for video👍
You're very welcome!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Hey. With due respect, what's your educational qualification?
@@josealfredfernandes I've got a Bachelor's in Music. I studied string bass and bassoon. All of my studio and live audio has been gained from lots of experience, books, gigs, and UA-cam.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio cool. I'm currently persuing bachelors degree in economics, followed by bachelors degree in business administration, according to your opinion, is 3rd additional music degree worth it? 😂 Everyone asks me whether I'm a sound engineer whenever I display my knowledge.. so.. just to shut their mouth.. I wanted to persue sound related degree
@@josealfredfernandes No employer or client has ever asked to see my degree besides Starbucks : ). There's still a ton to be gained from a formal education, but there's so much out there that you can learn on your own and on the job that it usually doesn't make sense to get a formal audio degree unless that specific knowledge is hindering you from pursuing a very specific career path. Just my two cents!
How do column array speakers fit into this setting. speakers like Bose F1 812 turbosound ip2000 and CDL12p
Great question. Column speakers are like a line array with no physical array changes. The internal processing in the speakers uses small phase differences between each one of the drivers in the column to "steer" the energy into its desired coverage shape. Many column arrays often advertise having a VERY wide coverage (160° or so), and a fairly narrow vertical coverage (15-40° per column, if I remember correctly.
Any opinion on the new "column type" speakers Vs traditional speakers?
They're just another tool in the toolbox. They're perfect for some applications, but not ideal for others, It just depends on context, budget, goals, room architecture, etc.
Hi Michael
Thanks again for another very helpful video😊👍
We currently have 4 older ev sx300 hanging in our church. They are 25 years old! Still running! We are wanting to upgrade to something better. We have recently purchased 2 Qsc ks212c subs which we are very happy with. Would the qsc k10.2 be a good option? Or the k12 maybe? Our room is very wide. Audience wider than the stage so good coverage is a must. There is maybe only 15 meters from the stage to the back of the room. 1 meter from the stage to the first row. Its totally the wrong way around! Haha!🤣 Should be turned the other way really but thats not an option unfortunately.
Hey, Mark. Glad this was helpful to you!
I'm shooting from the hip here since I don't know your available trim height or room width, but the K10.2 is a 90° box and the K12 is a 75° box. If you need to get wide in a hurry, I'd go with a wider box. BUT, the K12 does have 2 more dB of max SPL and a larger woofer.
You could always divide and conquer further and use three distributed mono mains if needed.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio great help!😊👍thanks! Having not heard the k 10.2 would you say they are a good speaker? Better than the ev 300sx? (Assuming you have heard the ev's😉)
@@markq23 The K10.2's are great speakers. It's been a long time since I've heard the EV 300sx's, but I'd say they'd be an upgrade, for sure. Just for clarity, without seeing the space and knowing dimensions I can't offer exact advice on what speakers would be a good fit. All I'm saying that the K10.2's are a fairly wide point source, and with a wide room you'll get more coverage.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks again!😊👍
We have a very wide room so it sounds like the k10.2 will be a good choice. Going to try out some stuff iv learnt on this channel with system design and tuning so hopefully this will help a lot👍
Would putting two of the 10.2 together in a cluster increase coverage and reduce comb filtering issues?
question: 2 Line arrays on sticks; How is that different from a point source being that it is not hung?
Thanks for the informative video. Are line array speakers mostly active speakers?
I'd say more of them are passive. It's really up to the manufacturer's design philosophy and implementation.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks!
Is there any good way to use multiple points source speakers per side? For instance, 2 K12s per side?
If you're wanting to run them at equal level (they're "throwing" the same distance and covering equal areas), then you would splay them 75° apart so the high frequencies wouldn't overlap.
The low frequencies would couple, but we don't want comb filtering in the top end, so you don't want them to overlap.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thanks, that's exactly the approach I've been taking when I need wide coverage.
@@ToddWCorey1 Glad to hear it!
Don’t forget that EACH JBL VRX932LA is in itself an “array” as each cabinet has three horns vertically placed. How many other cabs have multiple Hf drivers within one cab? Some, but few.
I don't know of many. The only other one that comes to mind immediately is the PreSonus CDL-12 (I think that's the model).
Looking up to you.
19dB is not 9 times louder, when it comes to human perception of loudness 10dB is twice as loud, so 19dB will be almost 4 times as loud.
Good catch. Yes, when talking about loudness for human perception you're totally right. I should have been more clear on the specific type of "loudness" I was referring to.
Could we stack a couple point sources?
Yes you can, but make sure that their high frequency coverages aren't overlapping. So, you could have to 90° boxes at a 90° splay and coverage 180° horizontally.
And also micheal can you use powered speakers with passive speakers point source
I think I understand what you're getting at, but can you clarify? Are you asking if you can mix powered and passive point sources in the same sound system?
Yes that is correct
@@gemk007 Mixing active and passive speakers is not a problem at all. What you have to watch out for is mismatched phase response between two different product lines or manufacturers. Not doing your homework there can get you into trouble.
Thanks that will help me out a lot
@@gemk007 You're very welcome!
I don’t tend to like the sound of line arrays. Besides introducing massive comb nodes, the sagitta from the CD is so manipulated. Very much not like the way sound prefers to expand. However pattern control rules, so they are ‘convenient’ much like a low rate MP3
I've always had doubts on the popular line array . Albert Einstein once said not everything good is popular and not everything popular is good😅
how about column speaker?
Check this video out - ua-cam.com/video/2Zd_5xwHotI/v-deo.html
❤
Man.. I know your videos are full of fantastic views and opinions.: and a lot of technical stuff for gear and all that.. but I haven't been able to make it through ONE SINGLE video.. I'm bored to death within like 5 min.. I wish there's a way you can condense some of this stuff.. or approach it differently.. cause I just lose interest very quickly.. even though, I'm very interested in the subject matter..
If my teaching style isn't your thing, try checking out Nathan Lively, Merlijn Van Veen, Dave Rat, or Alpha Sound.
You really really need B roll footage to show what you're talking about
I'll keep that in mind for next time. Thanks for the feedback.
Where can I learn about audio systems?
The best one stop show is Bob McCarthy's Book - Sound Systems: Design & Optimization, 3rd Edition
This is an unfair comparison. True point source would be something like the Jericho by Danley Sound Labs
If you want to get super technical, maybe. But the vast majority of the industry would call a simple woofer + tweeter speaker setup a point source, so I'm comfortable using that language.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio in my opinion, a true point source design will always sound more natural than anything else due to the way our ears perceive sounds in nature and the way the same sound does not emanate from multiple points in space anywhere in nature. The sort of speaker designs and concepts developed by Tom Danley are simply overlooked by many. A true point source full range loudspeaker design such as the Jericho is not even in the same class as something like the k12.
I would be interested in a video comparing true point source speaker designs to line array & constant curvature and the pros and cons of various use cases.
@@collinbischoff592 Great idea!
@@collinbischoff592 You're right, Danley makes incredible gear, no doubt about it. You're of course entitled to your own opinion on what you think sounds best.
Of course the Jericho and a K12 are different. So what would you call a K12?
Neither, unless you're on Taylor Swift's payroll.