Great video! I have seen these creases in brass before, but never realized exactly what they were or the failure issues they could cause. Appreciate the great content!!
Persom considers the mass volume of brass being made, it is no small wonder we don't have more issues with it than we do. Not so sure there have been all that many big changes in the way it has been made in the last 100+ yrs, maybe some sorting out of metallurgical parameters and processes, or in the basic forming tools, other than adding various types of improved automation, automated QC, and perhaps some more accurately made tools.
You mentioned significant flaws in all bullet manufacturers(and other components). I just got done measuring a sample of Sierra match king 0.224" 77gr BTHP. Whether it's your favorite or not, they have a pretty good reputation. The extreme spread for bullet base to ogive was 0.0225". Sample size 198 pieces. This makes me wonder, if their variation is this bad, how in the world do they have the reputation that they do?? Their weight was pretty dead on.
The vast majority of shooters are not excellent shooters. The popularity of something does not correlate to the excellence of something. All that means is that the majority of people using a thing are having an experience that meets or exceeds their expectations of it. So if something works for most people, they'll like it. My Prometheus powder measure is not popular... but it is the best. No question about either of those statements. This isn't a bad thing, however, it's very important to understand that when you decide to pursue the highest aim you can envision within any discipline, what's popular doesn't much enter into your mind. Instead the pursuit of excellence drives its own discovery process. Some things will allow advancement, while others will have you stuck on the same plateau indefinitely.
@@primalrights I agree, still kinda shocked to find that much variation. Especially in projectiles marketed for match shooting. Maybe all the match BTHP have that much variation in base to ogive, I haven't measured them all. Or maybe that much variation doesn't matter as much as I think it does.🤷♂️
Joearledge - Flaws in bullets are a whole separate study. For one thing, the expansion gasses will ALWAYS expand the bases of the bullets. How much expansion is the real question. For example, I know an owner of an original 30-40 Krag. His accuracy with that rifle is 6 to 8 inches at 100 yards using normal flat based OR boat tailed bullets - UNLESS you load FMJ or Nosler Partition bullets with the exposed lead at the bottom. THEN, he gets 1.5 inches of accuracy. The only difference is the amount of potential expansion available in the BASE of the bullets. The actual measurable diameter of bullets is less important than several other factors. Cast lead? Recommend 2 thousandths OVER measurable bore diameter. Jacketed bullets? ACTUAL or ONE thousandth over measurable bore diameter. Then you have exceptions such as the Ruger Mini 30. Bore diameter 308, but DESIGNED to handle ANY 7.62x39 ammo which is a nominal 311 to 312 diameter (3 to 4 thousands OVER - which is more than acceptable practices, but the rifle was DESIGNED to handle those differences. As you can see, bullet variation is a whole separate subject.
@kochj0713 0 seconds ago These cases are necked down and shoulder pushed to 22 PRC. Or is it a 6.5 PRC necked down to a .224 cal? I Believe the factories when making brass draw the brass towards the top, unlike we draw the case towards the base when resizing because we don’t have the nice equipment like the manufacturers do…. It looks like that would’ve split regardless but I just think when we resize these cases down just like when I take a 6 mm and resize it to 22 cm I expect there to be some imperfections they will fail much sooner than if I would’ve just shot it as a 6 mm Creedmoor
This could not come at a better time for myself with it being so difficult to find 284 or 6.5x284 Norma brass. So both these cracks seem very extreme to myself. What I'm wondering only because I can not tell the camera moves too quickly. Greg, did you Neck turn them both? the once fired did not look that way, which with more brass you would think it would hold up better. Greg, you just keep delivering awesome teachings and instructional videos truly a gift to us, brother. Thank you.
Thanks for the kind words. Both pieces of brass in the video were treated identically prior to the testing. Both started out at 6.5 PRC cases that were neck turned to 12.5 thousandths thickness on the AutoDOD, with a variance of less than 3 ten thousandths. When a case is neck turned, it is very shiny and has definite machining marks from the cutting implement. After subsequent sizing and firing, those faint machining marks are ironed out from the combination of being hammered against the chamber walls, pressed into the neck portion of the sizing die, and being pulled open by the expander in the sizing die. To the untrained eye it can be difficult to see, but those with experience in neck turning will be able to see the indications plainly in the images provided. Both pieces of brass were from the exact same lot number and box of brass, and were both treated identically to each other in the process. One had a manufacturing defect in the form of a creased neck, the other did not. That was the only difference between them.
I have reloaded for the 6.5-284 Norma for a goodly amount of time Lapua brass) . After you have fired the brass 3-4 times, along with trimming the cases, anneal the necks to cherry red. It changes the molecular structure of the brass and softens up the case necks. I recently was reloading 30-30 cases and they were hard. I annealed them and they became smooth as butter.
I have a couple boxes of federal American eagle 30.06 after shooting a few rounds I noticed the neck split my son went through the unfired rounds and found that they all had cracks so I won't be using them
And then you have the guys that shoot one case and reload at the bench to the point the extractor wears the rim off so it doesn't grip it reliably, file a new index mark and shoot a bunch more. From one case. Literally hundreds and hundreds of rounds.
Nosler 6.5prc I’ve had many seams in and will nit buy another expensive bx of that stuff….i don’t own an annealer….are there a way to re tighten the primer pockets after a hot load?
@@primalrights factory precision hunter 6.5prc had pressure the few I fired yesterday and basically ruined every one I fired…pressures come up at 500rds on my waypoint and I just did a heavy scrub on the bore and I’m still way lower charges at same speeds I was…after some blown primers and stuck ejectors…carbon ring was my thoughts but i should’ve brushed that out when I cleaned it…? Gonna borrow a scope to look inside this week
I had 4 bags of Nosler 6.5 creedmoor brass that had some obvious manufacturing issues such as creases and what I can only describe as wrinkles. Sent them all back.
Unfortunately not. If the neck has a crease, there is no "fixing" it. Obviously annealing when taking massive steps during neck-down operations is a good idea and will avoid stress fractures in otherwise healthy brass. However, the failure outlined in this video is from a creased neck. It will fail regardless of preventative measures.
Unfortunately not. The issue outlined in this video happens during manufacturing. It has nothing to do with damage during shipping. However, the dinged and out-of-round necks found in Lapua cases would probably be helped by individual packaging as you suggest.
Just finished Deuteronomy this morning. Thanks for sharing Greg.
Great video! I have seen these creases in brass before, but never realized exactly what they were or the failure issues they could cause. Appreciate the great content!!
Persom considers the mass volume of brass being made, it is no small wonder we don't have more issues with it than we do. Not so sure there have been all that many big changes in the way it has been made in the last 100+ yrs, maybe some sorting out of metallurgical parameters and processes, or in the basic forming tools, other than adding various types of improved automation, automated QC, and perhaps some more accurately made tools.
I find myself anxiously awaiting your next video. I've learned a great deal from them. Plus the Bible passages add icing to the cake. God Bless.
Good discussion. I was getting ready to say, "Yes, BUT....." and then you answered everything.
👍 Good video.
You mentioned significant flaws in all bullet manufacturers(and other components). I just got done measuring a sample of Sierra match king 0.224" 77gr BTHP. Whether it's your favorite or not, they have a pretty good reputation. The extreme spread for bullet base to ogive was 0.0225". Sample size 198 pieces. This makes me wonder, if their variation is this bad, how in the world do they have the reputation that they do?? Their weight was pretty dead on.
The vast majority of shooters are not excellent shooters. The popularity of something does not correlate to the excellence of something. All that means is that the majority of people using a thing are having an experience that meets or exceeds their expectations of it. So if something works for most people, they'll like it.
My Prometheus powder measure is not popular... but it is the best. No question about either of those statements.
This isn't a bad thing, however, it's very important to understand that when you decide to pursue the highest aim you can envision within any discipline, what's popular doesn't much enter into your mind. Instead the pursuit of excellence drives its own discovery process. Some things will allow advancement, while others will have you stuck on the same plateau indefinitely.
@@primalrights I agree, still kinda shocked to find that much variation. Especially in projectiles marketed for match shooting. Maybe all the match BTHP have that much variation in base to ogive, I haven't measured them all. Or maybe that much variation doesn't matter as much as I think it does.🤷♂️
Joearledge - Flaws in bullets are a whole separate study. For one thing, the expansion gasses will ALWAYS expand the bases of the bullets. How much expansion is the real question. For example, I know an owner of an original 30-40 Krag. His accuracy with that rifle is 6 to 8 inches at 100 yards using normal flat based OR boat tailed bullets - UNLESS you load FMJ or Nosler Partition bullets with the exposed lead at the bottom. THEN, he gets 1.5 inches of accuracy. The only difference is the amount of potential expansion available in the BASE of the bullets. The actual measurable diameter of bullets is less important than several other factors. Cast lead? Recommend 2 thousandths OVER measurable bore diameter. Jacketed bullets? ACTUAL or ONE thousandth over measurable bore diameter.
Then you have exceptions such as the Ruger Mini 30. Bore diameter 308, but DESIGNED to handle ANY 7.62x39 ammo which is a nominal 311 to 312 diameter (3 to 4 thousands OVER - which is more than acceptable practices, but the rifle was DESIGNED to handle those differences. As you can see, bullet variation is a whole separate subject.
Love your hand loading content, but I appreciate your reference to Gods word even more. Thanks
@kochj0713
0 seconds ago
These cases are necked down and shoulder pushed to 22 PRC. Or is it a 6.5 PRC necked down to a .224 cal? I Believe the factories when making brass draw the brass towards the top, unlike we draw the case towards the base when resizing because we don’t have the nice equipment like the manufacturers do…. It looks like that would’ve split regardless but I just think when we resize these cases down just like when I take a 6 mm and resize it to 22 cm I expect there to be some imperfections they will fail much sooner than if I would’ve just shot it as a 6 mm Creedmoor
This could not come at a better time for myself with it being so difficult to find 284 or 6.5x284 Norma brass. So both these cracks seem very extreme to myself. What I'm wondering only because I can not tell the camera moves too quickly. Greg, did you Neck turn them both? the once fired did not look that way, which with more brass you would think it would hold up better. Greg, you just keep delivering awesome teachings and instructional videos truly a gift to us, brother. Thank you.
Thanks for the kind words. Both pieces of brass in the video were treated identically prior to the testing. Both started out at 6.5 PRC cases that were neck turned to 12.5 thousandths thickness on the AutoDOD, with a variance of less than 3 ten thousandths. When a case is neck turned, it is very shiny and has definite machining marks from the cutting implement. After subsequent sizing and firing, those faint machining marks are ironed out from the combination of being hammered against the chamber walls, pressed into the neck portion of the sizing die, and being pulled open by the expander in the sizing die. To the untrained eye it can be difficult to see, but those with experience in neck turning will be able to see the indications plainly in the images provided. Both pieces of brass were from the exact same lot number and box of brass, and were both treated identically to each other in the process. One had a manufacturing defect in the form of a creased neck, the other did not. That was the only difference between them.
I have reloaded for the 6.5-284 Norma for a goodly amount of time Lapua brass) . After you have fired the brass 3-4 times, along with trimming the cases, anneal the necks to cherry red. It changes the molecular structure of the brass and softens up the case necks. I recently was reloading 30-30 cases and they were hard. I annealed them and they became smooth as butter.
Have you covered the effects of long term storage? I.E. cold welding bullet to brass.
I have a couple boxes of federal American eagle 30.06 after shooting a few rounds I noticed the neck split my son went through the unfired rounds and found that they all had cracks so I won't be using them
How damaging is a split neck to your rifle?
True
And then you have the guys that shoot one case and reload at the bench to the point the extractor wears the rim off so it doesn't grip it reliably, file a new index mark and shoot a bunch more. From one case. Literally hundreds and hundreds of rounds.
Nosler 6.5prc I’ve had many seams in and will nit buy another expensive bx of that stuff….i don’t own an annealer….are there a way to re tighten the primer pockets after a hot load?
There are gimmicks that claim to tighten pockets... but it's a pointless endeavor. Once the primer pockets go, toss the brass.
@@primalrights factory precision hunter 6.5prc had pressure the few I fired yesterday and basically ruined every one I fired…pressures come up at 500rds on my waypoint and I just did a heavy scrub on the bore and I’m still way lower charges at same speeds I was…after some blown primers and stuck ejectors…carbon ring was my thoughts but i should’ve brushed that out when I cleaned it…? Gonna borrow a scope to look inside this week
I bought 6.5 PRC Nosler brass that split as well. Absolute junk never again
I had 4 bags of Nosler 6.5 creedmoor brass that had some obvious manufacturing issues such as creases and what I can only describe as wrinkles. Sent them all back.
Happens far to often.
All the pressure that these brass goes through after multiple firings will crack the necks. All handloaders have seen this and you just throw em away.
Had a few in 303--25.
Would the first firing crack have been avoided, if it had been annealed just before neck turning and fire forming?
Unfortunately not. If the neck has a crease, there is no "fixing" it. Obviously annealing when taking massive steps during neck-down operations is a good idea and will avoid stress fractures in otherwise healthy brass. However, the failure outlined in this video is from a creased neck. It will fail regardless of preventative measures.
I got 20firings on 2 hornady 6.5prc cases rn…
Help to key chain bullet mr.
Lapua could package their Brass the way Alpha Munitions does and that would take care of their case neck issues
Unfortunately not. The issue outlined in this video happens during manufacturing. It has nothing to do with damage during shipping. However, the dinged and out-of-round necks found in Lapua cases would probably be helped by individual packaging as you suggest.