This isn't a failure of the device, it works like this by design. It's a manual belay device so needs to allow for letting out slack just as much as taking it in. If you have the deadrope oriented wrongly then a fall is the same as letting out slack as far as the grigri cares. No tension on the dead rope will mean you rely solely on friction in the gri gri to allow it to lock up - which is dangerous as your tests show. And as you said, people should 100% be aware of this when using it for self-belay. The "fix" is to tie the deadrope/cache into a bag or weight - this will keep it oriented correctly and put enough tension through the deadrope to let the grigri lock up properly. Treat it like a normal belay device 1st - you'd never use that in a system without securing the deadrope, a grigri is just a lot more convenient and safer, but same principles apply.
Sure! But a lot of people use the Grigri like this! Look at Alex Honnold here: ua-cam.com/video/VrxQxYMYkRc/v-deo.html No weight... If it is not a failure of the DEVICE, it is a failure of the SYSTEM. A dead body is a dead body, failure or misuse..
Thanks for the video Yann, what a valuable resource. I can confirm that this is a very, very real issue - just happened to me exactly like this at my local crag, fell 4ish meters until my backup knot. Super scary, this has really eroded my confidence in this system.
Haha yes it was quite a hard fall! And yes I am committed to the craft: I say no to all offers of climbing with a partner to maximize my time experimenting with all rope soloing systems!! Yesterday, I led successfully one of my hardest rope solo leads with... a Clove Hitch!!! Rope soloing is great!
LukesWorldTV humbling you are right! I like to have as little peer pressure as possible. Feel that I am here just for myself. Pure bliss! But then I return to people and share if I can :-)
OK, if the grigri works without a breaking hand on the rope also depends on the diameter of the rope. The thinner the rope, the less it works. Tried to manage a fail with the old grigri and a 11mm rope and the grigri worked in 100% with only about half a meter rope weight on the outcoming side of the grigri. You can watch on my channel (sorry it´s in german language).
Yes each grigri model / spring tension will have a certain diameter that will lock more reliably without a break hand. I looked at your video and I see you used a semi-static rope. I would only use dynamic rope for LRS (lead rope solo) and would never use the grigri for TRS (top rope solo)... Thanks for the comment!
I wouldn't recommend that anyone take a factor 2 fall on static rope. Your body is not made for that. And in life safety applications, 2=1, 1=none. Grigri for lead climbing should be backed up with a minimum of a catastrophe knot AND a friction multiplier for dead fall stop. Good on you for such dedication but man a slipped disc is nothing to laugh at. And that limb looks weak at best for a ~3kN fall. Happy climbing
Thanks! I setup something like this: foot ascender and knee ascender with the LOV to keep progress / rappel if need be... ua-cam.com/video/xv3hZVWVOQw/v-deo.html
What about re-directing the loose end through the Gri-gri's own carabiner. I think this way it runs over the lip as if when being belayed. Perhaps it helps?
Thanks for these great videos , it lets me know what I'm working with in the real world , better safe than dead or hurt , you hit the right word or idea right on the spot ' Evolve' , humans in motion aren't static by definition, so learning dynamically is key to survival . stellar work Yann Thanks
Hi yann, great content in all your videos! What do you think about using a Petzl ASAP on front gear loop, no cahe loop between the ASAP and the grigri (i think it should let the rope run freely and catch if a slip happens like in this video) and a microtaxion/ropeman/kong duck on the rear gear loop next to ASAP to manage the cache loop? In order grigri > no cache loop to asap > cache loop > microtraxion, should this work in case of a slip and would the asap lock with with his centrifugal mechanism letting the grigri lock? Feeding rope from the grigri ascendin or clipping would be a pain? (i don't know how much resistance the asap put on the rope, especially if put before the cache loop). Hope you can try this system or answer my doubts because asaps are not cheap at all😜
TLDR: Don't use the ASAP in a rock climbing situation. Details: I broke an ASAP with a factor zero fall (NO SLACK) on a dynamic rope. The ASAP is not an item that should touch the rope in a LRS setup as it could damage your rope and expose you to dire consequences. The falls that resulted in damage were on top rope with no slack (read: not one centimetre). I did multiple of these falls (maybe 5-10?). There was about 8m of rope absorbing the fall. Don’t remember the diameter. Then the ASAP drum was deformed so the « wheel » was not turning properly… My takeaway is: the ASAP is made to save your life ONCE. Then, You retire the device and buy a new one… Also! See what can happen when you use toothed devices in lead falls. docs.google.com/document/d/1u9weKscpu0TOdUQyMzsvtLqj8FGd5QMD_R3LkpTYjss/edit
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing do you think this failure would have not happened if the device was a grigri+ in the TOP ROPE mode?(love all the videos by the way👍)
@@milesm9115 this failure shown here with that long of a fall cannot happen with a grigri+ in TR mode or a device without spring like the Petzl Grillon or the Mad Rock Safeguard…
Great video! I use a Grigri when i climb trees and this really was a eye opener. I use 2 ropes, one is a Mamut static 10.1mm and the other is a 10.5 from Petzl. What is the diameter of the rope you use??
I have had 2 falls using Grigri and both held lucky me!.Thanks for the tests it has shown me the necessity of backup knots with the grigri which I am using a lot more of them.
Depending on your rope diameter but usually if you have 5 m of rope dangling, the weight is sufficient to activate the cam. But remember that anything preventing the cam from activating may create failure of the system. So yes: backup knots are a must. Note that there are far better options for top rope soloing. As for the lead rope solo, the discussion is (almost) endless. If you are interested in any details, everything is in my online courses (see link in description).
Hi Yann, nice video. At 4:00min you say that the GriGri plus in lead mode would have been worse. (meaning than the other Grigri's) To my understanding that would mean that the cam spring of the plus version set in leading modus would be more than the 40N /4Kg of other versions. I always thought that the plus, the spring was in leading modes the same, and in the towrope modus lower than 40N. I only have a one and two so I can not check this myself. Can you? thanks.
I would love to measure this! Can you make a video of how you measure it? But yes: I believe the spring of the plus in lead mode is a bit harder than in the other models.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Hi Yann, If the spring in the lead mode is harder, is in the toprope mode the spring weaker than the standard 40N of the older models? I will try to make a video of this lateran, but this is the setup. The dynamics of friction and a rotating cam in a grigri are comple. but a simple test did show the possibility of not blocking the rope. I did my test, (not very scientific with a digital suitcase pull/weigh scale:) I attached a 10,5mm static rope to a fixed point. One leg of the table and lay the grigri open with a carabiner and attached on the tabletop and fed the rope through. I attached the scale to the carabiner. Then I pulled on the scale with grigri attached watching the cam rotating till it touched the rope. I measured between 2,7 - 3,9kg. The difficulty is that if you pull very slow, there is no friction and the rope slides through the grigri. Therefore a hand on the braking rope is needed, to start this friction. A 7--9cm always will slip through the grigri causing friction to rotate the cam in case of a fall.. When you are higher up, the weight of hanging rope will result in the friction needed to activate the cam. When ascending with a RAD system were the rope from the brake side of the grigri is going up to the pulley, will result in the cam rotating and pinching the rope sooner. But on a descend without a pulley or when breaking side of the rope is on a branch, or legde, then, from a standing position where the cam is open, leaning slowly backwards, you might slide as much as 60 cm before the cam engages. leaning a 4kg bodyweight backwards is the exact moment you feel out of balance wanting to take a step backwards...which could be .a step in the in the air. . For me it is this aspect don't like or trust the Grigri. One could then better, buy a the cheapest Grillon, take the supplied rope out. The Grillon does not have any spring on the cam and always grabs the rope immediate, Where we have a bit of a different scope, as solo self belay or in my climbing as a stopper in ascend and descender where weight is less of an issue. I choose for just a bit more money and weight a Petzl RIG, I'D Sirius or D4 kind of device which have are faster locking and have a full lock off function to be fixed on the rope, for work etc.
@@LucScheffers Thanks for the very detailed comment! I agree 80% to what you say. The "60cm before the cam engages" is proved wrong by my video: it can slide 2m or more in my opinion! What do you think? Thanks!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Hi Yann, About 3,9kg of friction is needed to overcome the fixed spring tension, let the cam rotate and grab/pinch the rope. If due to rope size, rope surface, the angle of rope input, angle of device etc, the cam wil not, or rotate just partly, Rope is sliding through endless. Most of the time it grabs within 15 to 60cm's . But as you also tested (scary!)can be as far as 2.70 meters. Too close to the comfort, life, and end mass for specs of the material.
An optimist might not even consider this a total failure. Do you think the Grigri finally caught due to increased friction from the backup getting closer during the fall or perhaps the backup pulling the rope to one side. Would love to find out if the Grigri just takes time to catch or if the backup was really the only reason it started to catch at all in this scenario.
I have no idea what the reason is for the grigri to catch with 30cm of cache loop left. Increased friction because of speed could help, flickering of the rope in the cache loop could provide some help for the grigri to catch, and there might be other reasons I don't think about. My test is to show that it is sketchy to use a grigri for an "unassisted" rope solo device. A helpful phenomenon is what I call the "magic belayer's hand" (see my other videos with one on this very subject). Thanks for the comment!
It’s not clear what happened. I have taken falls on Gri Gris over 30 years off and on in climbing, bolting, and tee work climbing. If you don’t use the correct diameter rope or fall with a gri gri in the manner where it is not intended, I can see where the cam will slip. This tool is primarily intended to belay lead climbers (rock climbing) and I imagine aid climbing or ascending vertical ropes. I use it to ascend SRT to the highest part of the tree then use my custom tree lanyard to work around the tree. I have rigged 75 foot trees using my gri gri to get around the tree. I trust my life to this device if used as intended. I will try to do a video on how I use the gri gri. Sorry you had a bad experience.
I did not have a bad experience! I test the device to show people it is not foolproof and they should know the limitations of their gear and have the proper backups...
Now this test done and Petzl has seen it. What is there reply to the way it was tested. And what was their response on why such a drop rate before engaging. Lets be professionals on this topic.
Petzl has not answered. They don't need to: Petzl has always been clear: "Self-belaying with the GRIGRI is prohibited." Is that enough for you? www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Self-belaying-is-prohibited-?ProductName=GRIGRI
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Ok I get this. Did I. miss it in the beginning where you clearly state what Petzl clearly says do not do. And this is why they warn against using it in this manner. That would of set the stage for your vid. By the way it is a good video you did and thank you for showing the danger. I climb with a 1/2 line and I don't think it would let me drop that far for one reason. It is very snug fitting in the Grigri. But now I. will always have your demonstration sitting in the back of my head when climbing. Thank you.
do you think that the emptying of the cache loop (down to 30cm) caused the "brake" strand to become oriented correctly, causing the grigri to catch? Do you think using a maillon to orient the brake strand would solve this issue?
Good questions! 1- The problem is not orientation but rather a kind of "pull" that acts as a break hand... I believe the "brake strand" moved wildly in the air causing the jerk needed to activate the grigri. 2- The maillon may help with orientation but also cause some extra drag that could help activate the grigri. But I am not sure it is needed: I like to keep my systems as simple as possible. Look at this "unpublished" video for an explanation of why you might be safer than you think! ua-cam.com/video/ibel2NgcmcA/v-deo.html
Hahaha! Everything went as planned. I wanted it to fail to show everyone the Grigri can fail in that situation. If someone ever wants to use a Grigri without a hand on the brake side of the rope, he has to plan taking into account that the Grigri can slip. The Grigri slipped because there was only 1.5 m of rope weight on the break side and it needs 2 - 2.5 m (with that particular rope) to activate every time! (given no other failure mode happens LOL) Does that answer your question?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Can you talk more about rope weight in regards to the Grigri failure? I've done a quick google search to learn more about it but could not find any resources. I know 2-2.5 meters (of your particular rope) is adequate for the GriGri to lock from your comment but how do I find how what length of my rope (Sterling Nano IX 9.0mm) will cause the GriGri to lock? Will it also be 2-2.5 meters? Is the only way to confirm is to test this myself? Also, when you say with 2-2.5 meters it will lock each time, is this with the rope between your legs or off to the side of your hip? PS: That 3rd fall you took...ouch. You do not mess around and I very much appreciate this content. Shared it with my friends who use the Grigri as a TRS device (by pulling slack through as they go).
Mike Reid thanks for thé good comments!! Yes the 2-2.5 m of rope to lock the grigri every time is with my rope only. You will need to test with your rope: everyone should test their rope with their device before they go lead rope solo anyway. If you buy my TRS+LRS online course (link in description), I will add all the testing techniques you should do before you go out. Also I am in the process to explain what I call the « magic belayers hand » that explains how you might be safer / more at risk in some situations. Proper knowledge is pretty key for rope soloing!! That or tomfoolery... ;-)
It was installed like you see here: ua-cam.com/video/drxMAMczPwU/v-deo.html (from 0:00 to 0:30). It failed like you see explained here: ua-cam.com/video/dXc-7s6ielo/v-deo.html . Makes more sense now?
Ofcourse if there is no resistance on the rope going into the grigri but I don’t see how or why someone would be using it in a manner you have here. You had to force it to fail.
People lead rope soloing with the grigri use it in this manner every day... I understand your confusion as normal belaying will always have the belayer holding the dead rope: the grigri will never fail like I show in this case!! Thanks for the comment!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing no I am not confused, I do not ever belay, I only solo. And if it’s not backed up with a Prussic or another system. The way you force the slack to self feed is not realistic
I think that I expose myself to this type of failure when I climb with a grigri on LRS. If you think this is unrealistic, you might have a better system, or something else!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing yes I use a grigri but I do use it in a different configuration that would allow the slack to feed like that. The rope is always in a bag as I’m climbing and the other end is on my ground anchor.
@@BetaBreaker So I understand that you pull some rope prior to climb a couple of meters. This loop of rope you create by pulling prior to climbing is what I call the cache loop. This loop is the length you risk to fall if the grigri fails as in the video. If the failure occur, the grigri should activate when the rope going to your bag gets tight. Just never put enough rope in the cache loop that you risk falling on a ledge or to the ground. Makes sense?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing This is just what i heard but i am certain it's valid information. Don't want to go through the details, just 've heard that it was in Yosemite when falling down grigrid was (perhaps) turn on to left or right position and the metalic part of grigri which purpose is to open/close when putting the line was just dropped and they guy was lucky the line hangded on some part of clothes. That's just what i've heard. Not sure either but i think it was rope solo climb.
@@CookieMonsteeerrr interesting... A couple of things can happen with grigris to make them fail. That's why Petzl asks to keep a hand on the dead side of the rope!!
Hi Yann , from the video I can't figure out how you connected the grigri to your harness. Was it the upside-down configuration (which I suspect..) or the standard one? From my experience there's a huge difference between the two modes in how the device sucks in the rope. The upside-down configuration can easily (and quickly!) eat all the cache loop before something happens. The standard configuration, on the contrary, should cause a little more rope drag, a bit annoying when you climb, but crucial when you fall with a lot of rope inside the cache loop. I believe that the standard configuration should be ok and safe if used on this test. Ironically more cache loop shoud give more weight (virtual brake hand) and faster device activation.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing : Hi Yann. By zooming in on the video, it seems that the grigri handle is on your right side. This would lead me to think that it's rather a grigri upside-down (or reversed) configuration. In this case, could it be close to a "high clip failure" situation and explains why it fails ?
In lead rope solo the Micro Traxion is used backwards in order to create a cache loop which helps to give slack to your belay device, eliminating the weight of the dead rope. It's not acting as a backup. The backup here is the stopper knot.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing as a caver who use assender every time i go underground, can tell you it is a very bad idea to dynamically fall onto toothed rope grabs (especially a micro traxion; as it is designed for steady hauling loads). They are not designed for shock loading, though they will save your life (most of the time). As evidence of what would happen to your rope if you fell on a micro traxion.... see: ua-cam.com/video/4P5DX2mgPoM/v-deo.html
@@carlspence-jones8447 or this: caves.org/section/vertical/nh/45/ivyaccrpt.html Andrea and I are fully aware teeth are not to be loaded dynamically. Listen to the intro of this video for a very quick explanation on how we use the micro traxion for lead solo backup: ua-cam.com/video/KLar6eXD40E/v-deo.html
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Thanks, i see how you are using it now. Sorry for my ignorance and for you taking the time to explain, i am a lot less scared for you than i was watching the video for the first time knowing how you actually use it. You are just using it as a pulley, with the teeth the opposite (not griping during a fall). Makes a lot more sense. Thanks for putting your body on the line to show how a gri gri can not be trusted 100%. Your braver than me for deliberately taking that fall. How do you avoid a Locking karabina on your micro-traction being gate loaded during the free fall? I would have attached it with a locking malion to my harness to avoid any gate loading danger (and probably just tied a barrel knot to it for energy adsorption instead of using a pulley for the test).
So, if you are leading 2 mts above the bolt the fall should have been (2+2+3slack)+30% = 9,30 mts aprox? When I leaded with a grigri+backpack I assumed that the only thing that was going to stop me was the friction of the rope on my shoulder (kind of similar to the first two falls in the vídeo) or the backup knots in the dead rope, because in my gym tests the grigri 3 slided too much (1,5 mts) before catching. Any lenght of rope in the cache loop could be considered to slide and fail. Am I wrong?
I would say you are right! You describe the worst case scenario. Because of the jerk when you fall the initial 4 m, hopefully the grigri will activate and stop your fall! But yes: any rope you put in the cache loop, adds a risk of making your fall longer... By the way, what was your rope diameter at the gym? Note that when at the gym on TR, if you have more than 2.5 m (maybe 3 m) of rope under you, the grigri should lock every time (except if something pushes the cam "down").
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing At the gym I was Leading (not TR) on an old gym rope (so probably 10 mm, not really sure) . Jumped at the level of the bolt WITHOUT ANY SLACK (which is the same scenario than TR). Fell 1,5 mts. (probably fell "slowly"). It is dissapointing because you can fall "slowly" if the rock-wall is not fully vertical or overhanging or if you hit ledges while falling. I IMAGINE it would have been the same with any other grigri version.
@@mmliboreiro Your test is interesting and could be analysed in details but I would need a lot more information because many parameters can be at play in such a fall... It is not right to say that the same would happen with all Grigris: in my case here, it would have been easier to make a Grigri 1 fail, easier to make a Grigri + fail in the LEAD mode, but impossible to make a Grigri + in TR mode fail in such a dramatic way! My recommendation is you check out my online course in the description. This should make you a safer and freer climber! :-)
Hi Yann Camus, I think this failure mechanism can be overcome by changing the ascending device used for the cache loop. The wild country ropeman 1 applies more pressure on the rope than the microtraxion, so the gri gri would be more likely to engage.
The rope getting to tension at the end of his cache loop triggers the grigri. One has to be mindful of the limitations of one’s device. Impossible to do if you don’t know the limitations to start up with.
This isn't a failure of the device, it works like this by design. It's a manual belay device so needs to allow for letting out slack just as much as taking it in. If you have the deadrope oriented wrongly then a fall is the same as letting out slack as far as the grigri cares. No tension on the dead rope will mean you rely solely on friction in the gri gri to allow it to lock up - which is dangerous as your tests show. And as you said, people should 100% be aware of this when using it for self-belay. The "fix" is to tie the deadrope/cache into a bag or weight - this will keep it oriented correctly and put enough tension through the deadrope to let the grigri lock up properly. Treat it like a normal belay device 1st - you'd never use that in a system without securing the deadrope, a grigri is just a lot more convenient and safer, but same principles apply.
Sure! But a lot of people use the Grigri like this! Look at Alex Honnold here: ua-cam.com/video/VrxQxYMYkRc/v-deo.html No weight... If it is not a failure of the DEVICE, it is a failure of the SYSTEM. A dead body is a dead body, failure or misuse..
The bottom line is that the grigri is not designed for rope soloing. Better to use a dedicated device.
you got me scared on the last fall man. I hope you're ok. I learned something though! thanks for sharing.
Yes very ok thanks! There are so many people thinking the grigri works every time... I had to setup this setting to show it can fail! Cheers!
Thanks for the video Yann, what a valuable resource. I can confirm that this is a very, very real issue - just happened to me exactly like this at my local crag, fell 4ish meters until my backup knot. Super scary, this has really eroded my confidence in this system.
WoW this is scary. Lucky you had a backup knot!! Thanks for the comment!!!
Awesome video and man what a fall haha you are very committed to the craft! Stay safe on your climbs! :)
Haha yes it was quite a hard fall! And yes I am committed to the craft: I say no to all offers of climbing with a partner to maximize my time experimenting with all rope soloing systems!! Yesterday, I led successfully one of my hardest rope solo leads with... a Clove Hitch!!! Rope soloing is great!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing that sounds awesome! I myself much prefer climbing alone, its a very humbling experience.
LukesWorldTV humbling you are right! I like to have as little peer pressure as possible. Feel that I am here just for myself. Pure bliss! But then I return to people and share if I can :-)
Nice stand-man high quality test bounced heads
Thanks!
OK, if the grigri works without a breaking hand on the rope also depends on the diameter of the rope. The thinner the rope, the less it works. Tried to manage a fail with the old grigri and a 11mm rope and the grigri worked in 100% with only about half a meter rope weight on the outcoming side of the grigri. You can watch on my channel (sorry it´s in german language).
Yes each grigri model / spring tension will have a certain diameter that will lock more reliably without a break hand. I looked at your video and I see you used a semi-static rope. I would only use dynamic rope for LRS (lead rope solo) and would never use the grigri for TRS (top rope solo)... Thanks for the comment!
Camp Giant and Petzl Industrial descender are also good options. great video.
Damn that looks scary , glad your ok
Thanks!
I wouldn't recommend that anyone take a factor 2 fall on static rope. Your body is not made for that. And in life safety applications, 2=1, 1=none. Grigri for lead climbing should be backed up with a minimum of a catastrophe knot AND a friction multiplier for dead fall stop. Good on you for such dedication but man a slipped disc is nothing to laugh at. And that limb looks weak at best for a ~3kN fall. Happy climbing
"2=1, 1=none" I like that! All good comments here. Thank you!
Hey how did you jug up that so frickin fast! I’m interested in what that’s system is called, have never seen it.
Thanks! I setup something like this: foot ascender and knee ascender with the LOV to keep progress / rappel if need be... ua-cam.com/video/xv3hZVWVOQw/v-deo.html
What about re-directing the loose end through the Gri-gri's own carabiner. I think this way it runs over the lip as if when being belayed. Perhaps it helps?
Thanks for these great videos , it lets me know what I'm working with in the real world , better safe than dead or hurt , you hit the right word or idea right on the spot ' Evolve' , humans in motion aren't static by definition, so learning dynamically is key to survival . stellar work Yann Thanks
Thanks so much for the encouragements!
Hi yann, great content in all your videos! What do you think about using a Petzl ASAP on front gear loop, no cahe loop between the ASAP and the grigri (i think it should let the rope run freely and catch if a slip happens like in this video) and a microtaxion/ropeman/kong duck on the rear gear loop next to ASAP to manage the cache loop? In order grigri > no cache loop to asap > cache loop > microtraxion, should this work in case of a slip and would the asap lock with with his centrifugal mechanism letting the grigri lock? Feeding rope from the grigri ascendin or clipping would be a pain? (i don't know how much resistance the asap put on the rope, especially if put before the cache loop). Hope you can try this system or answer my doubts because asaps are not cheap at all😜
TLDR: Don't use the ASAP in a rock climbing situation.
Details:
I broke an ASAP with a factor zero fall (NO SLACK) on a dynamic rope. The ASAP is not an item that should touch the rope in a LRS setup as it could damage your rope and expose you to dire consequences.
The falls that resulted in damage were on top rope with no slack (read: not one centimetre). I did multiple of these falls (maybe 5-10?). There was about 8m of rope absorbing the fall. Don’t remember the diameter. Then the ASAP drum was deformed so the « wheel » was not turning properly…
My takeaway is: the ASAP is made to save your life ONCE. Then, You retire the device and buy a new one…
Also! See what can happen when you use toothed devices in lead falls. docs.google.com/document/d/1u9weKscpu0TOdUQyMzsvtLqj8FGd5QMD_R3LkpTYjss/edit
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing m.ua-cam.com/video/2152Zhs-8yg/v-deo.html i asked because of this video, thanks for your advices!
why would the grigri+ in lead mode have been worse?
Spring is stronger than the gg2019 so I could have done a longer fall with the gg+ in lead mode. Makes sense?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing do you think this failure would have not happened if the device was a grigri+ in the TOP ROPE mode?(love all the videos by the way👍)
@@milesm9115 this failure shown here with that long of a fall cannot happen with a grigri+ in TR mode or a device without spring like the Petzl Grillon or the Mad Rock Safeguard…
If I whipped like that on some stoppers I think I’d have a heart attack.
LOL!!!! What I have to do to prove a point... Pretty happy about the result!
Can the love2 be used for sport climbing like belaying a partner ?
I am not sure I understand the question.
Great video! I use a Grigri when i climb trees and this really was a eye opener.
I use 2 ropes, one is a Mamut static 10.1mm and the other is a 10.5 from Petzl. What is the diameter of the rope you use??
It must have been my Beal Booster III 9.7mm rope.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Okay, thanks!
I have had 2 falls using Grigri and both held lucky me!.Thanks for the tests it has shown me the necessity of backup knots with the grigri which I am using a lot more of them.
Depending on your rope diameter but usually if you have 5 m of rope dangling, the weight is sufficient to activate the cam. But remember that anything preventing the cam from activating may create failure of the system. So yes: backup knots are a must. Note that there are far better options for top rope soloing. As for the lead rope solo, the discussion is (almost) endless. If you are interested in any details, everything is in my online courses (see link in description).
Good vid x
Thx!
Hi Yann, nice video. At 4:00min you say that the GriGri plus in lead mode would have been worse. (meaning than the other Grigri's) To my understanding that would mean that the cam spring of the plus version set in leading modus would be more than the 40N /4Kg of other versions. I always thought that the plus, the spring was in leading modes the same, and in the towrope modus lower than 40N. I only have a one and two so I can not check this myself. Can you? thanks.
I would love to measure this! Can you make a video of how you measure it? But yes: I believe the spring of the plus in lead mode is a bit harder than in the other models.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Hi Yann, If the spring in the lead mode is harder, is in the toprope mode the spring weaker than the standard 40N of the older models? I will try to make a video of this lateran, but this is the setup. The dynamics of friction and a rotating cam in a grigri are comple. but a simple test did show the possibility of not blocking the rope. I did my test, (not very scientific with a digital suitcase pull/weigh scale:) I attached a 10,5mm static rope to a fixed point. One leg of the table and lay the grigri open with a carabiner and attached on the tabletop and fed the rope through. I attached the scale to the carabiner. Then I pulled on the scale with grigri attached watching the cam rotating till it touched the rope. I measured between 2,7 - 3,9kg. The difficulty is that if you pull very slow, there is no friction and the rope slides through the grigri. Therefore a hand on the braking rope is needed, to start this friction. A 7--9cm always will slip through the grigri causing friction to rotate the cam in case of a fall.. When you are higher up, the weight of hanging rope will result in the friction needed to activate the cam. When ascending with a RAD system were the rope from the brake side of the grigri is going up to the pulley, will result in the cam rotating and pinching the rope sooner. But on a descend without a pulley or when breaking side of the rope is on a branch, or legde, then, from a standing position where the cam is open, leaning slowly backwards, you might slide as much as 60 cm before the cam engages. leaning a 4kg bodyweight backwards is the exact moment you feel out of balance wanting to take a step backwards...which could be .a step in the in the air. . For me it is this aspect don't like or trust the Grigri. One could then better, buy a the cheapest Grillon, take the supplied rope out. The Grillon does not have any spring on the cam and always grabs the rope immediate, Where we have a bit of a different scope, as solo self belay or in my climbing as a stopper in ascend and descender where weight is less of an issue. I choose for just a bit more money and weight a Petzl RIG, I'D Sirius or D4 kind of device which have are faster locking and have a full lock off function to be fixed on the rope, for work etc.
@@LucScheffers Thanks for the very detailed comment! I agree 80% to what you say. The "60cm before the cam engages" is proved wrong by my video: it can slide 2m or more in my opinion! What do you think? Thanks!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Hi Yann, About 3,9kg of friction is needed to overcome the fixed spring tension, let the cam rotate and grab/pinch the rope. If due to rope size, rope surface, the angle of rope input, angle of device etc, the cam wil not, or rotate just partly, Rope is sliding through endless. Most of the time it grabs within 15 to 60cm's . But as you also tested (scary!)can be as far as 2.70 meters. Too close to the comfort, life, and end mass for specs of the material.
@@LucScheffers I don't understand when you say: "About 3,9kg of friction is needed to overcome the fixed spring tension"
An optimist might not even consider this a total failure. Do you think the Grigri finally caught due to increased friction from the backup getting closer during the fall or perhaps the backup pulling the rope to one side. Would love to find out if the Grigri just takes time to catch or if the backup was really the only reason it started to catch at all in this scenario.
I have no idea what the reason is for the grigri to catch with 30cm of cache loop left. Increased friction because of speed could help, flickering of the rope in the cache loop could provide some help for the grigri to catch, and there might be other reasons I don't think about. My test is to show that it is sketchy to use a grigri for an "unassisted" rope solo device. A helpful phenomenon is what I call the "magic belayer's hand" (see my other videos with one on this very subject). Thanks for the comment!
It’s not clear what happened. I have taken falls on Gri Gris over 30 years off and on in climbing, bolting, and tee work climbing. If you don’t use the correct diameter rope or fall with a gri gri in the manner where it is not intended, I can see where the cam will slip. This tool is primarily intended to belay lead climbers (rock climbing) and I imagine aid climbing or ascending vertical ropes.
I use it to ascend SRT to the highest part of the tree then use my custom tree lanyard to work around the tree. I have rigged 75 foot trees using my gri gri to get around the tree. I trust my life to this device if used as intended. I will try to do a video on how I use the gri gri. Sorry you had a bad experience.
I did not have a bad experience! I test the device to show people it is not foolproof and they should know the limitations of their gear and have the proper backups...
Now this test done and Petzl has seen it. What is there reply to the way it was tested. And what was their response on why such a drop rate before engaging. Lets be professionals on this topic.
Petzl has not answered. They don't need to: Petzl has always been clear: "Self-belaying with the GRIGRI is prohibited." Is that enough for you? www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Self-belaying-is-prohibited-?ProductName=GRIGRI
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Yes so then what is the dam point of your video?
@@1stFlyingeagle a lot of people self belay with it. I want people to be more educated about the risks involved.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Ok I get this. Did I. miss it in the beginning where you clearly state what Petzl clearly says do not do. And this is why they warn against using it in this manner. That would of set the stage for your vid. By the way it is a good video you did and thank you for showing the danger. I climb with a 1/2 line and I don't think it would let me drop that far for one reason. It is very snug fitting in the Grigri. But now I. will always have your demonstration sitting in the back of my head when climbing. Thank you.
do you think that the emptying of the cache loop (down to 30cm) caused the "brake" strand to become oriented correctly, causing the grigri to catch?
Do you think using a maillon to orient the brake strand would solve this issue?
Good questions! 1- The problem is not orientation but rather a kind of "pull" that acts as a break hand... I believe the "brake strand" moved wildly in the air causing the jerk needed to activate the grigri. 2- The maillon may help with orientation but also cause some extra drag that could help activate the grigri. But I am not sure it is needed: I like to keep my systems as simple as possible. Look at this "unpublished" video for an explanation of why you might be safer than you think! ua-cam.com/video/ibel2NgcmcA/v-deo.html
So what went wrong ???
Hahaha! Everything went as planned. I wanted it to fail to show everyone the Grigri can fail in that situation. If someone ever wants to use a Grigri without a hand on the brake side of the rope, he has to plan taking into account that the Grigri can slip. The Grigri slipped because there was only 1.5 m of rope weight on the break side and it needs 2 - 2.5 m (with that particular rope) to activate every time! (given no other failure mode happens LOL) Does that answer your question?
Yann Camus BlissClimbing
Yes got it now
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Can you talk more about rope weight in regards to the Grigri failure? I've done a quick google search to learn more about it but could not find any resources.
I know 2-2.5 meters (of your particular rope) is adequate for the GriGri to lock from your comment but how do I find how what length of my rope (Sterling Nano IX 9.0mm) will cause the GriGri to lock? Will it also be 2-2.5 meters? Is the only way to confirm is to test this myself?
Also, when you say with 2-2.5 meters it will lock each time, is this with the rope between your legs or off to the side of your hip?
PS: That 3rd fall you took...ouch. You do not mess around and I very much appreciate this content. Shared it with my friends who use the Grigri as a TRS device (by pulling slack through as they go).
Mike Reid thanks for thé good comments!! Yes the 2-2.5 m of rope to lock the grigri every time is with my rope only. You will need to test with your rope: everyone should test their rope with their device before they go lead rope solo anyway. If you buy my TRS+LRS online course (link in description), I will add all the testing techniques you should do before you go out. Also I am in the process to explain what I call the « magic belayers hand » that explains how you might be safer / more at risk in some situations. Proper knowledge is pretty key for rope soloing!! That or tomfoolery... ;-)
I'm afraid I don't understand what happened. I can't see what is going on. please do another video where you explain grigri failre.
It was installed like you see here: ua-cam.com/video/drxMAMczPwU/v-deo.html (from 0:00 to 0:30). It failed like you see explained here: ua-cam.com/video/dXc-7s6ielo/v-deo.html . Makes more sense now?
No it doesn’t make more sense you clown. Please stop making videos
Ofcourse if there is no resistance on the rope going into the grigri but I don’t see how or why someone would be using it in a manner you have here. You had to force it to fail.
People lead rope soloing with the grigri use it in this manner every day... I understand your confusion as normal belaying will always have the belayer holding the dead rope: the grigri will never fail like I show in this case!! Thanks for the comment!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing no I am not confused, I do not ever belay, I only solo. And if it’s not backed up with a Prussic or another system. The way you force the slack to self feed is not realistic
I think that I expose myself to this type of failure when I climb with a grigri on LRS. If you think this is unrealistic, you might have a better system, or something else!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing yes I use a grigri but I do use it in a different configuration that would allow the slack to feed like that. The rope is always in a bag as I’m climbing and the other end is on my ground anchor.
@@BetaBreaker So I understand that you pull some rope prior to climb a couple of meters. This loop of rope you create by pulling prior to climbing is what I call the cache loop. This loop is the length you risk to fall if the grigri fails as in the video. If the failure occur, the grigri should activate when the rope going to your bag gets tight. Just never put enough rope in the cache loop that you risk falling on a ledge or to the ground. Makes sense?
you right, i heard about colleague who almost died because of grigri in fall
Interesting... Please if you can provide a few details! Was it in a lead belay situation? Self-belay on a fixed rope? Lead rope solo?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing This is just what i heard but i am certain it's valid information. Don't want to go through the details, just 've heard that it was in Yosemite when falling down grigrid was (perhaps) turn on to left or right position and the metalic part of grigri which purpose is to open/close when putting the line was just dropped and they guy was lucky the line hangded on some part of clothes. That's just what i've heard. Not sure either but i think it was rope solo climb.
@@CookieMonsteeerrr interesting... A couple of things can happen with grigris to make them fail. That's why Petzl asks to keep a hand on the dead side of the rope!!
Hi Yann , from the video I can't figure out how you connected the grigri to your harness. Was it the upside-down configuration (which I suspect..) or the standard one? From my experience there's a huge difference between the two modes in how the device sucks in the rope. The upside-down configuration can easily (and quickly!) eat all the cache loop before something happens. The standard configuration, on the contrary, should cause a little more rope drag, a bit annoying when you climb, but crucial when you fall with a lot of rope inside the cache loop. I believe that the standard configuration should be ok and safe if used on this test. Ironically more cache loop shoud give more weight (virtual brake hand) and faster device activation.
I believe this was in the « standard » configuration, not the upside-down one…
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing : Hi Yann. By zooming in on the video, it seems that the grigri handle is on your right side. This would lead me to think that it's rather a grigri upside-down (or reversed) configuration. In this case, could it be close to a "high clip failure" situation and explains why it fails ?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing and many thanks for your test ! Still very useful even after 2 years ! You rock
You used a micro traction as your backup? I thought those things only hold 2kn because of the sheath strength...
In lead rope solo the Micro Traxion is used backwards in order to create a cache loop which helps to give slack to your belay device, eliminating the weight of the dead rope. It's not acting as a backup. The backup here is the stopper knot.
+1 : Adrea is right!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing as a caver who use assender every time i go underground, can tell you it is a very bad idea to dynamically fall onto toothed rope grabs (especially a micro traxion; as it is designed for steady hauling loads). They are not designed for shock loading, though they will save your life (most of the time). As evidence of what would happen to your rope if you fell on a micro traxion.... see: ua-cam.com/video/4P5DX2mgPoM/v-deo.html
@@carlspence-jones8447 or this: caves.org/section/vertical/nh/45/ivyaccrpt.html Andrea and I are fully aware teeth are not to be loaded dynamically. Listen to the intro of this video for a very quick explanation on how we use the micro traxion for lead solo backup: ua-cam.com/video/KLar6eXD40E/v-deo.html
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Thanks, i see how you are using it now. Sorry for my ignorance and for you taking the time to explain, i am a lot less scared for you than i was watching the video for the first time knowing how you actually use it. You are just using it as a pulley, with the teeth the opposite (not griping during a fall). Makes a lot more sense. Thanks for putting your body on the line to show how a gri gri can not be trusted 100%. Your braver than me for deliberately taking that fall. How do you avoid a Locking karabina on your micro-traction being gate loaded during the free fall? I would have attached it with a locking malion to my harness to avoid any gate loading danger (and probably just tied a barrel knot to it for energy adsorption instead of using a pulley for the test).
People should see this....
Thanks for the comment!!
"I watched some youtube videos and thia setup is increadible." So it is true, you can become an expert from youtube videos!!!!
@@b0mazor 😂 I guess the 10,000 hours rule would hold truer. Study 10,000 hours of UA-cam videos and we talk again!! ;-)
So, if you are leading 2 mts above the bolt the fall should have been (2+2+3slack)+30% = 9,30 mts aprox?
When I leaded with a grigri+backpack I assumed that the only thing that was going to stop me was the friction of the rope on my shoulder (kind of similar to the first two falls in the vídeo) or the backup knots in the dead rope, because in my gym tests the grigri 3 slided too much (1,5 mts) before catching. Any lenght of rope in the cache loop could be considered to slide and fail.
Am I wrong?
I would say you are right! You describe the worst case scenario. Because of the jerk when you fall the initial 4 m, hopefully the grigri will activate and stop your fall! But yes: any rope you put in the cache loop, adds a risk of making your fall longer... By the way, what was your rope diameter at the gym? Note that when at the gym on TR, if you have more than 2.5 m (maybe 3 m) of rope under you, the grigri should lock every time (except if something pushes the cam "down").
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing At the gym I was Leading (not TR) on an old gym rope (so probably 10 mm, not really sure) . Jumped at the level of the bolt WITHOUT ANY SLACK (which is the same scenario than TR). Fell 1,5 mts. (probably fell "slowly").
It is dissapointing because you can fall "slowly" if the rock-wall is not fully vertical or overhanging or if you hit ledges while falling. I IMAGINE it would have been the same with any other grigri version.
@@mmliboreiro Your test is interesting and could be analysed in details but I would need a lot more information because many parameters can be at play in such a fall... It is not right to say that the same would happen with all Grigris: in my case here, it would have been easier to make a Grigri 1 fail, easier to make a Grigri + fail in the LEAD mode, but impossible to make a Grigri + in TR mode fail in such a dramatic way! My recommendation is you check out my online course in the description. This should make you a safer and freer climber! :-)
If you use it properly it wont have those issues.
Yes: use it for what it is for also? Like belaying someone?
Hi Yann Camus, I think this failure mechanism can be overcome by changing the ascending device used for the cache loop. The wild country ropeman 1 applies more pressure on the rope than the microtraxion, so the gri gri would be more likely to engage.
the microtraxion never did anything in this scenario, as the cache loop never ran out. Ropeman wouldn't have made a difference
Voluntary factor 2 fall lol
Technically it is a less than factor 1 fall... www.vdiffclimbing.com/kn-ratings/
improper use/education of the device. This is user error.
Yann just watched this vid. He came up with a backup to the Grigri. ua-cam.com/video/5i4YsMb4xzU/v-deo.html
The rope getting to tension at the end of his cache loop triggers the grigri. One has to be mindful of the limitations of one’s device. Impossible to do if you don’t know the limitations to start up with.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Exactly and your video proves that.
Holy Crap!!!
You are out of your mind, dude. Just lost few years of my life.
LOL!!!
dziękuję :) pozdrawiam z polski
To wielka przyjemność! Bardzo chciałbym cię poznać, kiedy przybędę do Polski! (Google translation)
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing And with reciprocity;)
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudawy_Janowickie pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wy%C5%BCyna_Krakowsko-Cz%C4%99stochowska zapraszam czekają ;)