Thank you Mr. Baxter. You go above, and beyond for your viewers. We M8 owners, have only pondered on what these issues could possibly look like, and you just showed us, and got really dirty in the process. lol INCREDIBLE.
I am a retired heavy duty mech. and engine rebuilder. This fellow that owns the bike must have had a tremendous over heavy problem with the flywheels beating the oil to death. Your video was very interesting and can always teach an old hand new tricks. I am sure you have let Harley Davidson know about this problem if they are not aware all ready. This is a huge problem for the motor company. Keep up the good work Kevin!
This series is fantastic, so much information not available from any other source including Harley Davidson. It's easy now to see how even the best engineered oil pump could not keep up with this.
So, I've been riding my shovel seems like forever, and was thinking about getting a newer ride, and after watching your videos on TC's & M8's, I am hesitant to pull the trigger. LOL
Another awesome vid,20 revs every 5 seconds .so about 240 rpm you were doing,tops,and what a mess,can't wait to see the next vid,thankyou,you are the best,cheers,from Auckland,New Zealand.
Great video! These are the kind of experiments I do at the shop also. Oil scavenging is a big problem on the m8. If you look at the tiny threaded hole in the sump, that may be partially blocked off by a plug, you’ll see why! Feuling makes a short plug to prevent blockage but I feel the whole oil hole and passage is too small. I’m putting a Feuling race series pump and plate on a 131 along with the shorter plug. It should scavenge much better. 👍
I have 19 107 soft tail....5k miles. I used to think the fluid transfer issue was bad. But that was apparently not in the soft tail versions. Now this sumping issue in a dry sump oil system that could affect all M8s. Great! Very interesting video but a little disheartening for all us Harley faithfuls. I'll watch for symptoms you pointed out and just roll the dice and see what happens. Your efforts are much appreciated!
NEW SUB! and THUMBS UP! I've watched many of your videos and you're alone at the top with these empirically experienced and informational videos. This video explains/demonstrates sumping like no other... I've watched many videos and spoken to at least a dozen experienced HD service techs who have no idea. HD should be requiring your videos for training tutorials - seriously!
Hopefully you are engineering a custom oil pan baffle and crank scrape kit ,like hot rodders/race car builders do. Maybe that will stop that from happening. Thanks for the great videos !
My thoughts exactly when I saw this,I used to have one in the sump on my 327 and it worked really well,great minds think alike,best wishes,from,Auckland, New Zealand...
Another excellent series and presentation Kevin. I’m glued to the discovery (since I have a 2019 RGS with Feuling pump/plate and other mods). So far I’m running fine but man these M8’s make me nervous....
With the oil pump running, how much of that oil sloshing in the sump would be in process or in the cam chest? You would think a crank wiper of some kind or a windage baffle placed strategically over the crank weight might alleviate the splash some what. Just some thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to record and share. 👍
Hey Kevin, great hands on. I have a 2020 R.K. 1400 MILES. Vented,stick and intake breather. So far oil level is good. But this is definitely disturbing issue. I am wondering if I made a mistake with the purchase. I will be waiting on the next video. Thank you sir.
in all, relatively speaking, a small percentage of bikes have these issues....just helping people understand it if they do. go for an hour ride and stay above 2500 rpm....then check. most likely, you are good to go.
@@KevinBaxter Hi Kevin sorry late to the party I have a 2020 m8 no issues so far all stock was wondering if it would be a good idea to pop out crank sensor at every oil change to drain out any oil they say some is normal but over time it would build up to not so ok level ? Thanks again
Glad it was helpful! thank you. there are many, many, M8s that dont have these issues. just trying to educate folks so they can recognize and understand it if it does happen.
I'm from Carrollton Georgia and always enjoy watching videos tons of information 👍, I have a m8 less than 6000 miles on seems to be okay for now but I'm thinking about some upgrades to keep it issues down. Thank you for your technical videos 🇺🇸
I’ve noticed that my engine looks like it’s using a quart of oil every 2k miles. Could this just be sumping and not returning to the oil pan to be read on the dipstick? Should I pull the crank sensor and see if I get that quart in there? Can’t wait for the next episode to see what we can do to fix this issue if all the other fixes help but don’t cure the issue on their own. Thanks Kevin informative as always.
So, .002 is acceptable, will oil pump function at 100% ? Both suction and pressure. Suction pick up location? Obviously the sump pick up is not on the bottom of the crank case?
Yes. .002 is fine. While not ideal, .003 is fine too. I've seen up to around .005 not cause an issue with oil pump as well but above that seems to be the point when issues begin.
Hi Kevin Dave from the UK here thanks for instruction great demo and explanation, I’ve just bought my second M8 anew Streetbob 114 I’m hoping HD have cured some of these probs but looking at that a 2020 engine I fear not but will keep my eye on the oil, I was given a snippet of info that after a run and the engine is still hot undo the dipstick if it tight it’s under pressure if loose it hasn’t got what we call Crank Case compression stay safe stay well
I have a question. I have a 2020SG 2020 has the updated oil pump . So everyone talks about the vented dipstick. I ordered the trask transmission top cover with the oil vent reed valve in it . Did I make a good decision. I also at 1800 miles I have not noticed any oil sumping yet. Trying to stop it before it happens . I am also running the se heavy breather elite . Cobra NH slip ons se street tune stage 1. Want to go next step . Stage 2 . Now I am unsure if I should
you made a good decision. having the reed valve is a key element. one of the key points of this series....is that his problem started from NEW...ZERO mods. The mods didnt cause it. I wouldnt be afraid to make a mod (done well of course), but....make sure its not sumping now, do a leak down and cyl pressure test, scope the cyls, measure crank runout. if all is healthy, go for it. Too often the mod is being blamed, when in reality, the problem was there already and it wasnt known.
Hey Don. Part 4 will actually tie in to an upcoming video. I'm combining a Tool Tech Video showing how to test piston oilers and we will be testing the very oilers that cam out of this engine to demonstrate how that was most likely his issue from the very beginning. Thanks for asking!
New member here in Scotland. Excellent video series. When rotating the crank rapidly, there was a whine coming over the audio. Was this from the balancer shaft gearing? Seems quite loud.
Welcome aboard! and thank you for your support sir! I actually traced my family heritage. Turns out, in the late 1800s, at 12 years old, James Baxter came over on a boat alone, worked on a farm, and started my family. He was offspring of David Baxter who built Kilmaron Castle near Cupar, Fife which i understand was demolished in the mid 1980s. Anyway....yes...that is the balancer gear whining. quite loud.
@@KevinBaxter It's a small world! I live 13 miles south-west of Cupar in Glenrothes, a new town in Fife that was designated in 1948 and developed around the fledgeling semiconductor industry. Keep up the good work!
I’m just now starting on this video after part 1 and 2. I have a 2019 with a cam. Did the vented dipstick, can chest, hp oil pump. Bike was amazing for over a year. I do ride my bike hard. But I always have. Just recently it sumped about 45 mins from the house. Got home, drained almost 2 quarts out the case! It’s done it 3 more times. It’s at the shop now getting the race oil pump. I sure hope this is fixes the issue. If it doesn’t, I’m bringing it to you or I’m burning it to the ground 🤣
Indeed! However, it has been my first hand experience that engineers do not always have the final say in design approval. (they can't always be blamed for design issues). If a problem looks like an absolute bone head engineering mistake, you can almost bank on the fact that the engineers did not approve it. 😐
So clearly if you pull the crank sensor and any oil at all comes out there is sufficient oil for the crank to be striking and consequently aerating the oil, not to mention the mechanical stresses being imparted on the crankshaft. Have to wait another week to find out where all of the oil is coming from. Can't help wondering if some sort of windage tray would be helpful, but the crankcase effectively has one cast in, would the S&S oil pump's extra cavity/gears have helped?
true however....many are saying "4 ounces is ok". if none comes out, it is marginal....if 4 oz comes out, it can become a problem. the goal was to set the minimum. you are correct in what you say sir. Part 2 i explained what caused this one.
So how do you now stop all that oil in the crankcase. I followed your theory on the breathers just fine, but now what is holding all that oil in the crankcase? Steve
Excellent video. But why do you rotate the crank in reverse for demo? (if it makes any difference) And I wonder why Harley has far shorter than possible piston skirts. (not that the objective is to have them as long as possible)The diameter to skirt length ratio is tiny. I wonder how that might effect cylinder ovaling. It is clearly visible where downward piston travel limit is reached because of untouched fresh crosshatch. Nothing wrong with leaving no stone unturned, but it's difficult to believe that the weight reduction of the piston can be noticed in acceleration to 6 or 7 thousand rpms in terms of horse power if at all.
I have a 2017 RGS with lots of mods like breather, pipes, suspension etc. and I have no idea if the pump or cam plate has been done but it has 12000 miles with no issues. Would you look inside or just wait to see if anything happens?
I checked my oil level after the dealership performed my 5K service. Owners manual states to check oil when warm and in the jiffy stand. So, I waited for a while after I got home to check the oil. When I did check, I was unable to get a reading as there were so many air bubbles that I couldn’t see. I assumed I just did not let engine cool enough so I water a while longer. When I checked the second time, the reading was a quart low. I was upset, called the person the salesman and was ready to go to the service department the next day and ask why they can’t do an oil change correctly. (Service from dealer is very expensive so would hope to get the best service). I decided to check the following morning before going to the dealer. I let the engine idle for 1 minute and then checked. The reading was right in the money. I called my salesman, apologized and have been under the impression this entire time that everything is good. After watching this video, I’m concerned I might be experiencing this same problem. Bike is a 22 SGST with the 117 M8. I have almost 8k miles and have not noticed any difference in performance. Is there anything that I can do to check and see if my engine is doing this? I have not noticed any oil in the filter.
Kevin, if you were to do the same test with the camplate and pump installed, wouldn’t the pump evacuate some of the oil? Especially with the Fueling upgrade. Obviously this engine had severe issues. Just curious as to how much oil the pump would remove. Thanks for the videos.
the oil drained, was the amount of oil contained and building up inside the case while the engine was running. so with the combined blow by issue, and the piston oiler, the pump was not able to evacuate the case.
Kevin, just bought a 2021 Triglide and I’m trying to learn as much as I can, thru your videos. Is this something that can happen at any time during the engines lifecycle or is one scott free after a certain point? Thanks
Kevin, great video on the sumping issue! Just wondering when you may do the follow up on the M8 engine to explain how to not have that issue or if it is because of a flaw on certain engines? I installed a vented dipstick on my stock 114. No issues with it. I also did an external venting system for my air cleaner. No issues. Then I had some work done to install a Woods 22XE cam/lifters, S&S camplate/oil pump, billet tappet cuffs, pushrods, chain tensioner, and Andrews crank sprocket. I now have oil coming out of the vented dipstick. Really frustrating.
This is a bit late Full at running temp or cold? I ask because i had the thousand mile service when i got it back it was full to the hot line. I can’t figure why they would put that much oil in any bike. I haven’t gone back yet but i intend on asking.
Have a 2020 Softail, I hear sumping is not really an issue. Is that actually true? Have about 6,300 miles on it, half of it was last week. Long ride at speeds of 70-85 for a 100 miles at a times. If I have not had any issues yet, what are the odds of me having any issues? Bone stock, only thing I did is vent the heads to a filter and catch can under seat.
a small percentage overall have these issues...and when they do, seemed to be some confusion with what is really going on out there. educating folks so they know what to look for. I dont see as many softails with the issues. if youre riding under those conditions and arent having a problem, you are most likely good to go.
i get that there are x number of causes to this issue but I was wondering if you could maybe tie this all together on what We can do to minimize sumping. I just want a reliable bike that will last so I was thinking oil pump/cam plate / alum tappet guides, ordered the trask transmission vent. but now seeing this series that means nothing if it is "another cause" In your opinion what are the top 5 things or more (I dont know) to do to a M8 to minimize this issue. it seems there is no way to negate this 100%. And thinks for the series on this.
Kevin I’ve been viewing several of your episodes on u tube and am following your M8 sumping issues. I own a 2019 street glide special with the 114. Did HD address this issue prior to the 2019 M8’s? I have installed a Fueling vented dipstick, should I upgrade the cam plate? If I do does it void the warranty?
Hey Kevin there's a dude on UA-cam who carburated a m8 and removed most of the electronics in it. Is that a bad idea, why? Will the lower rpm hurt the motor? It sure sounds better to me. The channel is tonemother
i will not critique another creator for what they choose to do...so please see this as my personal opinion and not being in opposition to his choices. I would not carb an M8...or convert any EFI system on an HD to carb unless it was an old MM system with lots of problems. Tuned proper, EFI is very reliable and efficient. I also would not set idle below around 900 to 1000 rpm. The oiling system is more efficient at that rpm. I did special ECM programming for a Japanese builder for several years. They wanted their EFI Twin Cams to idle at 650. It was possible, but required high flow/high pressure oil pumps to keep the engine healthy...and the off idle throttle response was terrible but....they love that lopey idle and were accepting of that.
@@KevinBaxter thanks for responding to my questions. I know you know what's up and wanted to see what you said about it, not as a critique of dudes work but just for some insight for me who thought it was cool. Makes sense on why. Thank you
@@KevinBaxter The one on bottom of engine few inches away from oil drain plug,like a 6mm maybe. My best friend and I tore my transmission apart a few weeks ago, and he said I need to pull out a plug to see if it has more than 3 ouces,before we start for first time, I currently have all 3 fresh fluids, but have not fired it up,Crankcase oil plug is what my best friend said we need to pull out. He said he has learned stuff he never knew from you ( You the man !!!)
Excellent video series Kevin. I bought a 17 CVO limited last Aug. I've put about 10k miles on it. Current miles is just shy of 48K. I pulled the CPS a couple of days ago and drained about 12oz of oil. I do a lot of long distance runs, just got back from a 2800 mile run. Do you think that much of oil in the crankcase is a reason to be concerned? Bike is stock besides stage 1 stuff. If you have time to answer, thanks much.
I bought a 2021 Sport Glide last month. Of course H-D does a great job of hiding inherent problems. So I didn't even know about this issue until seeing these videos. As far as my bike, the only thing I've done is replace the stock muffler with a Rinehart muffler and I don't plan on doing anything else. The engine is a 107 and I mostly keep my RPMs around 2,100 to 2,500 - except during acceleration of course. A few questions: 1) Have any corrections been made for the '21 model year to mitigate the sumping issue? 2) Is this issue mostly attributed to engines with performance or stage upgrades? 3) Are there any "backyard mechanic" fixes that I could do that won't affect warranty if this issue hasn't been addressed for the '21 model year?
From my discussion with a trusted and seasoned Harley Master Tech (I had similar questions about my bike): 1) HD upgraded the oil pump on the M8 in late half of 2019. Notwithstanding, I defer to Kevin Baxters comments that it's not just "one" thing causing this. 2) No. If you recall, the subject engine of this video had issues from new, not just "after" upgrades. 3) I have no idea or expertise to answer this. 🙂
The surprising thing is that every M8 doesn't sump....maybe they do and we're just catching up on what Harley has known since they began making the Milwaukee-Eight engine. The weak link seems to be the piston oilers. From what I've seen, at least with the early ones (2017 to early 2019) the screws are too long and not properly torqued, and the face where they mount to the case is not as flat as it should be so they seal poorly and tend to blow gaskets. I've become very disillusioned with Harley-Davidson....this problem potentially exists on every M8 they have made and they won't even acknowledge it. The right thing to do would be to bring every bike to the shop and fix the oilers and any damaged caused by the sumping problem. I'm not holding my breath for that.....Harley has never given anything but lip-service to their customers. I got my first HD in 1977 (a 1971 Super Glide....I should have kept that bike!!) and I expect my 2018 Ultra Limited will be my last.
you are correct. a small percentage overall has these issues. my goal is to educate so folks in case they do...and know how to recognize it. from low tension piston rings, small oil rails, etc...
Its a small percentage of M8's seeing this problem to this extreme. Don't buy a bike that was built on a monday or friday, haha. I have a 2020 CVO streetglide, I immediately installed a fueling vented dipstick when I bought it. So good so far. Are you seeing any 117's with this issue?
So as my 2017 Ultra approaches 27000 Miles I now feel some power loss after riding for a while. whats the best way to gauge if it's sumping. you mentioned checking the oil through different intervals. You see a lot of people saying to measure how much oil comes out after Crank Position sensor being more than 60z which after watching your video I think that's not the test. ...or is that accurate or maybe hearing knocking or what?
I think I missed it. I just maybe thick headed. I’ve watched all 4 episodes so far. I don’t remember why there was actual sumping for this particular engine. It’s crystal clear what happens and even if it starts if you can get back and why you may never recover if it goes on too long. I get the rings and cylinders glazed. Are we to assume that once you started sumping and the cylinders were impacted that you never really recover until a rebuild? Was there too much oil at one point. The rings and seals were they not broke in or heat cycle issue. I don’t remember the oilers being looked at. Maybe we are supposed to wait for the cases to be split for the final.
That's a lot of oil getting thrown up the piston skirt, SO why the need for piston oiler's ? How about we just ripp'em out and hammer a bit of wood in there instead..... Kevin, When the bike is doing 3000 rpm down the road, how much of that oil (oil that's been drained out of crank) is spread out ,through out the rest of the motor , or is that the amount constantly in the crank case because the oil level is up to the cam case hole (pick up port for oil pump ? ) ? and what about any oil still in the sump under the gear box ?
to keep the pistons cooler...allowing for leaner fuel mixtures. this would represent the constant level of oil in the case while running....or building up over time at least.
@@KevinBaxter Hi Kevin, Thank-you ,What i meant was with that much oil already been flung up the piston skirts. Does it really need the extra oil squirted up there "as well" from the piston oilers ... Any idea of the amount of oil mist that gets injected from the piston oilers each revolution? HD didn't know of this sumping problem THEY created, so maybe they went over board with the additional oil injectors, and so putting to much oil in the crank and over loading the scavenge and oil pump system, or is it a cunning plan to keep every one guessing and in a job and money coming in. Sorry , just dribbling shit.........
I know that this question is not about sumping, but it does relate to engine oil shenanigans. I've asked around, and searched the internet, but no really helpful information, so this seems as good a place to ask as any. On my '18 M8 107 For the past amount of time, I've noticed that my engine started using a lot of engine oil. Over the past 800 km., I've taken notes, and it shows that the engine uses about 0.1L per 100 km. When I removed the derby cover to check the oil level in there, a ton of oil came out. After getting the level in the primary to the correct level, I have noted that the amount of engine oil disappearing, is pretty exactly equal to the surplus in the primary. If anybody has any ideas, it would be greatly appreciated!
Perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention, but I never saw in all three of these videos WHY the engine sumped in the first place. You just kept showing the sumping in action, not what caused having too much oil in the crankcase.
the scraper is relatively far below the crank, and well below the oil level. It's full. So regardless...it's not doing its function at that point anyway.
Incredible video series on this engine. I have learned that I'm never buying another HD, and I'm going out to my garage to give my DCT Wing a hug.
You should start a Harley tech school, you’re a natural teacher. Pass the torch down to the next generation of techs.
The best explanation and demonstration I've seen. I really appreciate you taking the time to show this.
You're very welcome!
Thank you Mr. Baxter. You go above, and beyond for your viewers. We M8 owners, have only pondered on what these issues could possibly look like, and you just showed us, and got really dirty in the process. lol INCREDIBLE.
Thank you kindly
You are truly breaking new ground with your visual presentation of what is occurring inside the cases. Bravo! And thank you.
Thank you kindly sir. I appreicate you!
prayers for pete and you all
That Kevin was just Astounding and Somewhat Disturbing , But Thanks Very Much for a Very Definitive Demonstration.
You're very welcome
I am a retired heavy duty mech. and engine rebuilder. This fellow that owns the bike must have had a tremendous over heavy problem with the flywheels beating the oil to death. Your video was very interesting and can always teach an old hand new tricks. I am sure you have let Harley Davidson know about this problem if they are not aware all ready. This is a huge problem for the motor company. Keep up the good work Kevin!
thank you for commenting and for following along. Best of luck sir.
This series is fantastic, so much information not available from any other source including Harley Davidson. It's easy now to see how even the best engineered oil pump could not keep up with this.
thank you sir.
so that now begs the question, why doesn't the oil drain properly to where the pump can scavenge it?
Amazing demonstration !!!!!! Keep them coming. Thanks for letting us watch.
Thanks, will do! I appreciate your support Johnny. Thank you so much!
Amazing stuff Kevin. Nowhere else can we see this stuff and get a true understanding of whats going on in our engines. Thanks for that.
My pleasure! thank you for the kind words.
Well done man. Explains the mechanics of the engine as well as the problems associated with sumping.
Great video Kevin I must admit that is the fastest I have ever seen the wheels turn without pistons on them
Me too. Lots of coffee. LOL
Hope your anniversary dinner was warm and your wife was in a good mood.
Yes, thank you
Great video! Oooffff that was a mess..
the sludge that drained out was something else....enough that is separated and settled. cooked.
So, I've been riding my shovel seems like forever, and was thinking about getting a newer ride, and after watching your videos on TC's & M8's, I am hesitant to pull the trigger. LOL
Superb learning experience! I watch most of these 2 and 3 times each. Thank you very much , Kevin!
Very welcome THank you greg!
I can see you have alot of practice stroking it!! Love you content and scientific knowledge!!
heck yeah....I've been stroking (engines) daily for over 30 years! hahahaha
Thanks sir for the great video and visual explanation of sumping & cavitation. Glad to hear that Pete is better and gonna be back in the shop.
youre welcome. thank you sir.
You spoke of the oilier stuck open. A short video of the test would be helpful. Tom
that is coming in our next Tool Tech Tuesday episode. I'll show the tool to test them and how to do it.
All I can say is after watching your videos, if I ever decide to have my 114 done it's coming to you.
Thank you sir!
Thank you for this great educational series on M8. One of the best explanations out there.
Glad you enjoyed it. Thank you sir!
Glad to here Pete is doing better.
Awesome demonstration.....thanks .. Will be watching for sure ...Thanks Kevin keep up the good work...
Thanks 👍
Another awesome vid,20 revs every 5 seconds .so about 240 rpm you were doing,tops,and what a mess,can't wait to see the next vid,thankyou,you are the best,cheers,from Auckland,New Zealand.
Thanks 👍 I think its awesome you counted that. Love it.
Well explained Kevin thank you I’m learning all the time..👍🏻🇦🇺
Glad to hear it. thank you sir.
Great video! These are the kind of experiments I do at the shop also. Oil scavenging is a big problem on the m8. If you look at the tiny threaded hole in the sump, that may be partially blocked off by a plug, you’ll see why! Feuling makes a short plug to prevent blockage but I feel the whole oil hole and passage is too small. I’m putting a Feuling race series pump and plate on a 131 along with the shorter plug. It should scavenge much better. 👍
Great series. Thanks Kevin
WOW! This confirms my choice on the Shovelhead S&S engine. This is crazy stuff.
I have 19 107 soft tail....5k miles. I used to think the fluid transfer issue was bad. But that was apparently not in the soft tail versions. Now this sumping issue in a dry sump oil system that could affect all M8s. Great! Very interesting video but a little disheartening for all us Harley faithfuls. I'll watch for symptoms you pointed out and just roll the dice and see what happens. Your efforts are much appreciated!
Little off topic but seeing that twin cam fxr coming together in the background is cool
thats a very good topic! LOL. its getting there slowly. Engine and trans is done....not a ton left to do really.
NEW SUB! and THUMBS UP! I've watched many of your videos and you're alone at the top with these empirically experienced and informational videos. This video explains/demonstrates sumping like no other... I've watched many videos and spoken to at least a dozen experienced HD service techs who have no idea. HD should be requiring your videos for training tutorials - seriously!
Hopefully you are engineering a custom oil pan baffle and crank scrape kit ,like hot rodders/race car builders do. Maybe that will stop that from happening. Thanks for the great videos !
My thoughts exactly when I saw this,I used to have one in the sump on my 327 and it worked really well,great minds think alike,best wishes,from,Auckland, New Zealand...
Another excellent series and presentation Kevin. I’m glued to the discovery (since I have a 2019 RGS with Feuling pump/plate and other mods). So far I’m running fine but man these M8’s make me nervous....
Ride it like you stole it! Best of luck. thank you.
With the oil pump running, how much of that oil sloshing in the sump would be in process or in the cam chest?
You would think a crank wiper of some kind or a windage baffle placed strategically over the crank weight might alleviate the splash some what. Just some thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to record and share. 👍
Hey Kevin, great hands on. I have a 2020 R.K. 1400 MILES. Vented,stick and intake breather. So far oil level is good. But this is definitely disturbing issue. I am wondering if I made a mistake with the purchase. I will be waiting on the next video. Thank you sir.
in all, relatively speaking, a small percentage of bikes have these issues....just helping people understand it if they do. go for an hour ride and stay above 2500 rpm....then check. most likely, you are good to go.
@@KevinBaxter Hi Kevin sorry late to the party I have a 2020 m8 no issues so far all stock was wondering if it would be a good idea to pop out crank sensor at every oil change to drain out any oil they say some is normal but over time it would build up to not so ok level ? Thanks again
Many thanks, Kevin.
Thank you Kevin.. great video. This information is so amazing. I have an older Evo.. not sure I want to move to an M8
Glad it was helpful! thank you. there are many, many, M8s that dont have these issues. just trying to educate folks so they can recognize and understand it if it does happen.
@@KevinBaxter yeah absolutely. Looking forward to the next steps and build.. thanks!
I love my m8 107
Extremely good video, Kevin!
Thank you kindly!
Thanks for your time and video. Very informative.
I'm from Carrollton Georgia and always enjoy watching videos tons of information 👍, I have a m8 less than 6000 miles on seems to be okay for now but I'm thinking about some upgrades to keep it issues down. Thank you for your technical videos 🇺🇸
I’ve noticed that my engine looks like it’s using a quart of oil every 2k miles. Could this just be sumping and not returning to the oil pan to be read on the dipstick? Should I pull the crank sensor and see if I get that quart in there? Can’t wait for the next episode to see what we can do to fix this issue if all the other fixes help but don’t cure the issue on their own. Thanks Kevin informative as always.
So, .002 is acceptable, will oil pump function at 100% ? Both suction and pressure. Suction pick up location? Obviously the sump pick up is not on the bottom of the crank case?
Yes. .002 is fine. While not ideal, .003 is fine too. I've seen up to around .005 not cause an issue with oil pump as well but above that seems to be the point when issues begin.
Great content, Is the sumping issue covered by the warranty?
thank you. yes sir it is.
Hi Kevin Dave from the UK here thanks for instruction great demo and explanation, I’ve just bought my second M8 anew Streetbob 114 I’m hoping HD have cured some of these probs but looking at that a 2020 engine I fear not but will keep my eye on the oil, I was given a snippet of info that after a run and the engine is still hot undo the dipstick if it tight it’s under pressure if loose it hasn’t got what we call Crank Case compression stay safe stay well
I have a question. I have a 2020SG 2020 has the updated oil pump . So everyone talks about the vented dipstick. I ordered the trask transmission top cover with the oil vent reed valve in it . Did I make a good decision. I also at 1800 miles I have not noticed any oil sumping yet. Trying to stop it before it happens . I am also running the se heavy breather elite . Cobra NH slip ons se street tune stage 1. Want to go next step . Stage 2 . Now I am unsure if I should
you made a good decision. having the reed valve is a key element. one of the key points of this series....is that his problem started from NEW...ZERO mods. The mods didnt cause it. I wouldnt be afraid to make a mod (done well of course), but....make sure its not sumping now, do a leak down and cyl pressure test, scope the cyls, measure crank runout. if all is healthy, go for it. Too often the mod is being blamed, when in reality, the problem was there already and it wasnt known.
Wow you moved that so fast wow.
Hey Kevin. Just curious when will part 4 will be posted? Thanks
Hey Don. Part 4 will actually tie in to an upcoming video. I'm combining a Tool Tech Video showing how to test piston oilers and we will be testing the very oilers that cam out of this engine to demonstrate how that was most likely his issue from the very beginning. Thanks for asking!
@@KevinBaxter Thanks Kevin for the update. I enjoy your videos very much and you're a great teacher.
Great video,explains alot
Thanks for the info
Glad it was helpful!
Wow! Very interesting! Sure hope my 2020 114 M8 doesn't have this problem.
Fingers crossed! not all have it. just trying to make people aware if it comes up.
@@KevinBaxter how do I know if I am having a sumping issue?Mine is a 2020 107M8
New member here in Scotland. Excellent video series. When rotating the crank rapidly, there was a whine coming over the audio. Was this from the balancer shaft gearing? Seems quite loud.
Welcome aboard! and thank you for your support sir! I actually traced my family heritage. Turns out, in the late 1800s, at 12 years old, James Baxter came over on a boat alone, worked on a farm, and started my family. He was offspring of David Baxter who built Kilmaron Castle near Cupar, Fife which i understand was demolished in the mid 1980s. Anyway....yes...that is the balancer gear whining. quite loud.
@@KevinBaxter It's a small world! I live 13 miles south-west of Cupar in Glenrothes, a new town in Fife that was designated in 1948 and developed around the fledgeling semiconductor industry. Keep up the good work!
I’m just now starting on this video after part 1 and 2. I have a 2019 with a cam. Did the vented dipstick, can chest, hp oil pump. Bike was amazing for over a year. I do ride my bike hard. But I always have. Just recently it sumped about 45 mins from the house. Got home, drained almost 2 quarts out the case! It’s done it 3 more times. It’s at the shop now getting the race oil pump. I sure hope this is fixes the issue. If it doesn’t, I’m bringing it to you or I’m burning it to the ground 🤣
And those other 3 times, they all drained about 2 quarts!
Another question: Have you considered becoming an H-D engine designer? You seem to have more engineering prowess than the H-D engineers themselves.
Indeed! However, it has been my first hand experience that engineers do not always have the final say in design approval. (they can't always be blamed for design issues). If a problem looks like an absolute bone head engineering mistake, you can almost bank on the fact that the engineers did not approve it. 😐
So clearly if you pull the crank sensor and any oil at all comes out there is sufficient oil for the crank to be striking and consequently aerating the oil,
not to mention the mechanical stresses being imparted on the crankshaft. Have to wait another week to find out where all of the oil is coming from.
Can't help wondering if some sort of windage tray would be helpful, but the crankcase effectively has one cast in, would the S&S oil pump's extra cavity/gears have helped?
true however....many are saying "4 ounces is ok". if none comes out, it is marginal....if 4 oz comes out, it can become a problem. the goal was to set the minimum. you are correct in what you say sir. Part 2 i explained what caused this one.
@@KevinBaxter Ah, missed it, stuck piston oiler. Clearly not paying attention. My bad.
So how do you now stop all that oil in the crankcase. I followed your theory on the breathers just fine, but now what is holding all that oil in the crankcase? Steve
Excellent video. But why do you rotate the crank in reverse for demo? (if it makes any difference) And I wonder why Harley has far shorter than possible piston skirts. (not that the objective is to have them as long as possible)The diameter to skirt length ratio is tiny. I wonder how that might effect cylinder ovaling. It is clearly visible where downward piston travel limit is reached because of untouched fresh crosshatch. Nothing wrong with leaving no stone unturned, but it's difficult to believe that the weight reduction of the piston can be noticed in acceleration to 6 or 7 thousand rpms in terms of horse power if at all.
I have a 2017 RGS with lots of mods like breather, pipes, suspension etc. and I have no idea if the pump or cam plate has been done but it has 12000 miles with no issues. Would you look inside or just wait to see if anything happens?
check for signs now. doesnt hurt to have a look but if you arent having any issues...most likely you are ok regardless of whats in there.
Just wondering how long Will the motor company continue with this type of engineering
Another awesome video Kevin. Thanks for educating the less knowledgeable!
My pleasure! thank you
I checked my oil level after the dealership performed my 5K service. Owners manual states to check oil when warm and in the jiffy stand. So, I waited for a while after I got home to check the oil. When I did check, I was unable to get a reading as there were so many air bubbles that I couldn’t see. I assumed I just did not let engine cool enough so I water a while longer. When I checked the second time, the reading was a quart low. I was upset, called the person the salesman and was ready to go to the service department the next day and ask why they can’t do an oil change correctly. (Service from dealer is very expensive so would hope to get the best service). I decided to check the following morning before going to the dealer. I let the engine idle for 1 minute and then checked. The reading was right in the money. I called my salesman, apologized and have been under the impression this entire time that everything is good. After watching this video, I’m concerned I might be experiencing this same problem. Bike is a 22 SGST with the 117 M8. I have almost 8k miles and have not noticed any difference in performance. Is there anything that I can do to check and see if my engine is doing this? I have not noticed any oil in the filter.
damn we got it kevin!! lol freaking oil everywhere
Cool
Kevin, if you were to do the same test with the camplate and pump installed, wouldn’t the pump evacuate some of the oil? Especially with the Fueling upgrade. Obviously this engine had severe issues. Just curious as to how much oil the pump would remove. Thanks for the videos.
the oil drained, was the amount of oil contained and building up inside the case while the engine was running. so with the combined blow by issue, and the piston oiler, the pump was not able to evacuate the case.
Thank you sir.
Kevin, just bought a 2021 Triglide and I’m trying to learn as much as I can, thru your videos. Is this something that can happen at any time during the engines lifecycle or is one scott free after a certain point? Thanks
Kevin, great video on the sumping issue! Just wondering when you may do the follow up on the M8 engine to explain how to not have that issue or if it is because of a flaw on certain engines? I installed a vented dipstick on my stock 114. No issues with it. I also did an external venting system for my air cleaner. No issues. Then I had some work done to install a Woods 22XE cam/lifters, S&S camplate/oil pump, billet tappet cuffs, pushrods, chain tensioner, and Andrews crank sprocket. I now have oil coming out of the vented dipstick. Really frustrating.
I run my oil level 4 dots down from full. That's 4.5 quarts of oil. That will most likely fix the issue.
This is a bit late Full at running temp or cold? I ask because i had the thousand mile service when i got it back it was full to the hot line. I can’t figure why they would put that much oil in any bike. I haven’t gone back yet but i intend on asking.
Have a 2020 Softail, I hear sumping is not really an issue. Is that actually true? Have about 6,300 miles on it, half of it was last week. Long ride at speeds of 70-85 for a 100 miles at a times. If I have not had any issues yet, what are the odds of me having any issues? Bone stock, only thing I did is vent the heads to a filter and catch can under seat.
a small percentage overall have these issues...and when they do, seemed to be some confusion with what is really going on out there. educating folks so they know what to look for. I dont see as many softails with the issues. if youre riding under those conditions and arent having a problem, you are most likely good to go.
@@KevinBaxter thanks
Is there a Part 4 somewhere?
And that's what we get for spending 30 some thousand dollars and to put all good parts in is roughly another 5-7 thousand Great!
I noticed the 2020s have a vent on the Trans cover. Would the vented cover from Trask still be of benefit to these models?
i get that there are x number of causes to this issue but I was wondering if you could maybe tie this all together on what We can do to minimize sumping. I just want a reliable bike that will last so I was thinking oil pump/cam plate / alum tappet guides, ordered the trask transmission vent. but now seeing this series that means nothing if it is "another cause" In your opinion what are the top 5 things or more (I dont know) to do to a M8 to minimize this issue. it seems there is no way to negate this 100%. And thinks for the series on this.
great suggestion. thank you.
Kevin I’ve been viewing several of your episodes on u tube and am following your M8 sumping issues. I own a 2019 street glide special with the 114. Did HD address this issue prior to the 2019 M8’s? I have installed a Fueling vented dipstick, should I upgrade the cam plate? If I do does it void the warranty?
Hey Kevin there's a dude on UA-cam who carburated a m8 and removed most of the electronics in it. Is that a bad idea, why? Will the lower rpm hurt the motor? It sure sounds better to me. The channel is tonemother
i will not critique another creator for what they choose to do...so please see this as my personal opinion and not being in opposition to his choices. I would not carb an M8...or convert any EFI system on an HD to carb unless it was an old MM system with lots of problems. Tuned proper, EFI is very reliable and efficient. I also would not set idle below around 900 to 1000 rpm. The oiling system is more efficient at that rpm. I did special ECM programming for a Japanese builder for several years. They wanted their EFI Twin Cams to idle at 650. It was possible, but required high flow/high pressure oil pumps to keep the engine healthy...and the off idle throttle response was terrible but....they love that lopey idle and were accepting of that.
@@KevinBaxter thanks for responding to my questions. I know you know what's up and wanted to see what you said about it, not as a critique of dudes work but just for some insight for me who thought it was cool. Makes sense on why. Thank you
What size is the plug to take out to drain the oil where there should only be like 3 ounces?
its the crank sensor being removed. 3/16" allen. none is best...4 is when the problems start.
@@KevinBaxter The one on bottom of engine few inches away from oil drain plug,like a 6mm maybe. My best friend and I tore my transmission apart a few weeks ago, and he said I need to pull out a plug to see if it has more than 3 ouces,before we start for first time, I currently have all 3 fresh fluids, but have not fired it up,Crankcase oil plug is what my best friend said we need to pull out. He said he has learned stuff he never knew from you ( You the man !!!)
Excellent video series Kevin. I bought a 17 CVO limited last Aug. I've put about 10k miles on it. Current miles is just shy of 48K. I pulled the CPS a couple of days ago and drained about 12oz of oil. I do a lot of long distance runs, just got back from a 2800 mile run. Do you think that much of oil in the crankcase is a reason to be concerned? Bike is stock besides stage 1 stuff. If you have time to answer, thanks much.
4 to 6 oz is about the high limit. 12 is a bit much im sorry to say. Wish you the best with it. Thanks for watching.
That would be called aeration which will cause the pump to cavitate
I bought a 2021 Sport Glide last month. Of course H-D does a great job of hiding inherent problems. So I didn't even know about this issue until seeing these videos. As far as my bike, the only thing I've done is replace the stock muffler with a Rinehart muffler and I don't plan on doing anything else. The engine is a 107 and I mostly keep my RPMs around 2,100 to 2,500 - except during acceleration of course.
A few questions:
1) Have any corrections been made for the '21 model year to mitigate the sumping issue?
2) Is this issue mostly attributed to engines with performance or stage upgrades?
3) Are there any "backyard mechanic" fixes that I could do that won't affect warranty if this issue hasn't been addressed for the '21 model year?
From my discussion with a trusted and seasoned Harley Master Tech (I had similar questions about my bike):
1) HD upgraded the oil pump on the M8 in late half of 2019. Notwithstanding, I defer to Kevin Baxters comments that it's not just "one" thing causing this.
2) No. If you recall, the subject engine of this video had issues from new, not just "after" upgrades.
3) I have no idea or expertise to answer this. 🙂
The surprising thing is that every M8 doesn't sump....maybe they do and we're just catching up on what Harley has known since they began making the Milwaukee-Eight engine. The weak link seems to be the piston oilers. From what I've seen, at least with the early ones (2017 to early 2019) the screws are too long and not properly torqued, and the face where they mount to the case is not as flat as it should be so they seal poorly and tend to blow gaskets. I've become very disillusioned with Harley-Davidson....this problem potentially exists on every M8 they have made and they won't even acknowledge it. The right thing to do would be to bring every bike to the shop and fix the oilers and any damaged caused by the sumping problem. I'm not holding my breath for that.....Harley has never given anything but lip-service to their customers. I got my first HD in 1977 (a 1971 Super Glide....I should have kept that bike!!) and I expect my 2018 Ultra Limited will be my last.
you are correct. a small percentage overall has these issues. my goal is to educate so folks in case they do...and know how to recognize it. from low tension piston rings, small oil rails, etc...
Its a small percentage of M8's seeing this problem to this extreme. Don't buy a bike that was built on a monday or friday, haha. I have a 2020 CVO streetglide, I immediately installed a fueling vented dipstick when I bought it. So good so far. Are you seeing any 117's with this issue?
So as my 2017 Ultra approaches 27000 Miles I now feel some power loss after riding for a while. whats the best way to gauge if it's sumping. you mentioned checking the oil through different intervals. You see a lot of people saying to measure how much oil comes out after Crank Position sensor being more than 60z which after watching your video I think that's not the test. ...or is that accurate or maybe hearing knocking or what?
Forgot to Thank You for your videos wish I lived closer.
Phew! That's Alotta air bubbles! Smh!
Hom much oil would a M8 sling if the M8 did sling oil?
I think I missed it. I just maybe thick headed. I’ve watched all 4 episodes so far. I don’t remember why there was actual sumping for this particular engine. It’s crystal clear what happens and even if it starts if you can get back and why you may never recover if it goes on too long. I get the rings and cylinders glazed. Are we to assume that once you started sumping and the cylinders were impacted that you never really recover until a rebuild? Was there too much oil at one point. The rings and seals were they not broke in or heat cycle issue. I don’t remember the oilers being looked at. Maybe we are supposed to wait for the cases to be split for the final.
piston oiler stuck open from day 1
What is the blue object sitting on the side of the table?
So much for a "dry sump" oil system.
That's a lot of oil getting thrown up the piston skirt, SO why the need for piston oiler's ?
How about we just ripp'em out and hammer a bit of wood in there instead.....
Kevin, When the bike is doing 3000 rpm down the road, how much of that oil (oil that's been drained out of crank) is spread out ,through out the rest of the motor , or is that the amount constantly in the crank case because the oil level is up to the cam case hole (pick up port for oil pump ? ) ? and what about any oil still in the sump under the gear box ?
to keep the pistons cooler...allowing for leaner fuel mixtures. this would represent the constant level of oil in the case while running....or building up over time at least.
@@KevinBaxter Hi Kevin, Thank-you ,What i meant was with that much oil already been flung up the piston skirts. Does it really need the extra oil squirted up there "as well" from the piston oilers ...
Any idea of the amount of oil mist that gets injected from the piston oilers each revolution?
HD didn't know of this sumping problem THEY created, so maybe they went over board with the additional oil injectors, and so putting to much oil in the crank and over loading the scavenge and oil pump system, or is it a cunning plan to keep every one guessing and in a job and money coming in.
Sorry , just dribbling shit.........
After watching all 3 parts of the video, I still cannot figure what causes this sumping issue
Can someone explain to me why I would spend $36,000 to get this level of engineering?
I know that this question is not about sumping, but it does relate to engine oil shenanigans. I've asked around, and searched the internet, but no really helpful information, so this seems as good a place to ask as any.
On my '18 M8 107 For the past amount of time, I've noticed that my engine started using a lot of engine oil.
Over the past 800 km., I've taken notes, and it shows that the engine uses about 0.1L per 100 km.
When I removed the derby cover to check the oil level in there, a ton of oil came out.
After getting the level in the primary to the correct level, I have noted that the amount of engine oil disappearing, is pretty exactly equal to the surplus in the primary.
If anybody has any ideas, it would be greatly appreciated!
👍
Does it help to run3 qt low
No. besides...less oil, less cooling capacity.
Perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention, but I never saw in all three of these videos WHY the engine sumped in the first place. You just kept showing the sumping in action, not what caused having too much oil in the crankcase.
Cavitation? Don't you mean the entrapment of air in the lubricating oil is called oil "Aeration".
Holy shit !!!!!
that is ridiculous Harley should take care of the bill
But why is it slumping?
So is the m8 motor no good
Why not just add an electric suction pump to kick on when sumping starts 🤔
im already on that. releasing it very soon. have been testing for a while.
Kind of reminds you of a kid playing in a mud puddle, don't it?
I questioned the rotation, given the
Scraper can only function one way.
the scraper is relatively far below the crank, and well below the oil level. It's full. So regardless...it's not doing its function at that point anyway.
kevin the motor turned faster manually than running.lol