The Melian Dialogue
Вставка
- Опубліковано 21 кві 2010
- A modern re-enactment of the negotiations between the Athenians and the Melians as reconstructed by Thucydides, the ancient Greek historian of the Peloponnesian War (taken from 'The War that Never Ends', 1991, directed by Jack Gold)
I'm not sure why they chose to dress them as some sort of 80s-futuristic aliens, but it absolutely makes me want to see an 80s-style sci-fi series based on the Peloponnesian War but set in space
bsg?
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Legend of the Galactic Heroes
Because it's the words that matter, not the clothes.
Honestly just give the Athenians Imperial uniforms and the Melosians something else, like former CIS uniforms or some shit and it will still work
Its a shame this does not contain the famous "the strong do what they can; the weak suffer what they must" phrase. But excellent.
GrecoSwede I believe that’s from the Mytilenaean debate
Ithad been said, justparaphrased or translated differently- 4:36 it is necessary law of nature to rule whereever one can
it's just the backbone of the dialogue...
Melians : "You might someday find your own fall attended by the most terrible vengeance"
History : "let me write this down ✍️"
Wow. Michael Kitchen (House of Cards, Foyle's War) and Stephen Moore (Brideshead Revisited, A Bridge Too Far, Foyle's War) as the Athenians and Oliver Ford Davies (Philby, Burgess and Maclean, Foyle's War) as the Melian rep. Cracking stuff!
Not to mention Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, Stephen Moore played Marvin.
The birth of Realpolitik as a science. Interesting to think about that Thucydides was a contemporary of Socrates. So this philosophical search to uncover all hidden truths and eternal natural laws that govern all aspects of life and universe, was widespread among the Athenian society.
I want the rest of Thucydides
I theorize that Thomas Paine was very familiar with the Melian Dialogue when he wrote Common Sense.
Lovely, great work.
Excellent dramatization of the Melian Dialogue! Thanks for sharing. I just produced a video that summarizes the Melian Dialogue and explores its relation to Political Realism and Political Idealism.
this was great, thanks
wow sooo catchy and memorable
The universe is full of cold, hard facts...and this is one of them: Nature always will award cruelty with power.
So good
The Melian guy... was he a cardassian in DS9?
I would commend to everyone that they also compare the earlier Pericles Funeral Oration to Abe Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. The similarities in the two documents are striking. Vis-a-vis this famous dialog, one might say that the Athenians had "lost their way" from the exceptional democracy that they thought of themselves as. One wonders what the US Melian dialog might be? Or one may even wonder if we have had one yet? The closest we have come perhaps is Vietnam, but even that still has a strong air of enlightened self-interest versus the naked self interest on display here.
John T. Kuehn, Stofft Professor, Army Command and General Staff College
"We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality-judiciously, as you will-we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
Since the Melian dialogue is a comment on the ethical blindness that attends Imperial power and the oftentimes naked nature of actions which perpetuate this Imperial, military and economic domination, Vietnam could be a good example, but so too could the gulf war, the second Iraqi invasion, United States backed revolutions and upheavals in Libya, Syria, Yemen, Egypt, Lebanon, etc etc.
Pericles and Lincoln´s speeches are so similar in essence, that one has to wonder whether old Abe didn´t borrow some ideas....
abe copypaste linkin
" Nevertheless "........one of my favourite words . It can mean - " perhaps " or " Sorry , but that is complete BS ! "
or various other things. ?
@4:40 Lysander: 4 obols says otherwise
Where do you buy those shirts?
Is that a young Michael ("Foyle's War") Kitchen on the Athenian side?
James Guinivan Yep! I recognized him at 2:18 when he did that thing where he's kind of looking off to the side while he addresses somebody and then turns his face directly toward them when he concludes.
YES! Isn't he GREAT!?
They're all in Foyle's War at some point: Sam's father and a corrupt magistrate.
3:24 "Right makes might" Ah, if only it were truly so.... but alas such is not the case.
Woah, its Sio Bibble from The Phantom Menace
And the dialouge is even in the movie. Fascanating.
Trey Gowdy sent me here
Me too.
Feda me three. My grandfather used to say "Sometimes one has to be an island to do what is right, but prepare for the hurricane"
How so?
me too !
This was clear
This dialogue is very different in tone and style to the rest of Thucydides. Is it accepted that he did indeed write this section?
The original differs from language because it is from old greece, and there has been both rough translations aswell as simplified versions for school children to use. It could also be changed because of dramatic effects since this is from a old movie.
That is atleast what I think.
The nation that produced Socrates and Plato reduced to might makes right level of politics.
Unfortunately Realpolitik never goes away.
Bill Decker sent me
lol Spartans can't swim
are you serious??? spartans made sure they knew how to do everything. They had extremely strong swimmers!!
The Spartans wuz actually black
WE WUZ KINGS N' SHIET!
The spartans defeated the athenian navy at sea bringing an end to the peloponiasian war
They can, but they are afraid of bathing
Coming from where I come from, the Athenians come across as cowardly to me! While it is true that war may be full of great surprises, one in which the gods favor whomever they please as they did in this case and if one were to believe in their existence and intervention, my modern female mind cannot tolerate the lack of solutions or works towards fairness or justice instead of overpowering and subjugation through war. I am greatly saddened by the inner treachery that contributed to the conquering and enslavement of the people of Melos, but it is a common strategic tactic used by the powerful to subjugate a people. Unfortunately, it has taken many examples of such treason to understand it and to this day it still happens because individuals within groups do not necessarily understand or even care to know the many cases of betrayal that have condemned their own people. And by this I also mean our species and its development. That is simply a position used to justify war in what might have been a world where people were mostly convinced that either one group rules or they will be ruled in turn. Had they not believed it or spread the idea like a virus, they might have lived differently.
I agree but it is human nature to be afraid and to be selfish. the people who commit treason are most likely because they can see the reality of where their side stands. like in the case of Melos the people who committed treason could see that in the scenario of strong and weak they are the weak which will result in them dying or losing all they have worked for. so the treason is quite understandable because humans are more driven by gains unlike moral conduct. it is of my opinion that even if people were more aware of the benefits of sticking to morals they would have still chosen power over morality because POWER IS POWER and it is intoxicating.
"my modern female mind cannot tolerate the lack of solutions or works towards fairness or justice" - oh the salt of the earth...
The Athenians would answer as follows: "Justice and fairness can only be found among equals (in strength/power). There isn't and never can be justice and fairness among unequals". "The strong move forwards as far as their strength permits them and the weak retreat backwards as far as their weakness forces them".
I was brought here because I am an Anarchist and someone thought this was an argument against anarchism.
While I understand what the person was saying, I would counter that it seems this situation does not apply. These are two city states in conflict. As an anarchist, if confronted with such a power as the Athenians, it would probably be best to let them "take over." The power of men with weapons is real. The authority to govern is an illusion.
And that's the point
How anarchism be achieved if you simply roll over to whoever comes to you
And what happens if they are against anarchism
@@ypsawbones3646 It's the rejection of the idea of an abstract such as "State" or "God" having legitimate authority. An Athenian government can't police everyone all the time. They can say "You are now under Athenian rule", but is that true? Is it legitmate? Do the Melians see it that way or do they see it as a hostile group has got the upper hand on them in that moment?
There are plenty of insurgencies. Afghanistan "rolled over" to let the U.S. invade, but these institutions always overextend themselves and the insurgencies take advantage.
People tend to look at Anarchism through a statist lens.
@@socialismo52
The first and most obvious problem with that line of thought is a practical one
Even if you are philosophically right
It won't amount too much since the guy with the shinny badge can kill you for it
Second all authority derives from violence or the ability to cause harm directly or indirectly to say they have no right is wrong the fact that they can force you is right enough you may go socratic on my ass and say might doesn't equal right but in this case the argument isn't that but were their right for authority comes for
As for the insurgencies it's more complicated than they rolled over and then pop up again
First of all America was very loose (and stupid)when it came on handling the situation (if you had nazi Germany invading Afghanistan
I doubt if any effective resistance could occur even if you don't want be genocidal America neglected the topical politics) secondly the insurgents were well trained and well received in their societies thirdly they were very well organized (an anarchist revolution would lack that) fourth the terrain and environment allows for such insurgencies to take place
Fifth their ideology(religious fundamentalism) allows for fanatical resistance to outside parties and more importantly cultural influences plus it acts as a very strong unifier.
Afghanistan isn't your typical environment for revolution and it wasn't a political revolution but more of an ethnic- religious one
@@ypsawbones3646 what's funny is that I'm in agreement with most of what you are saying and it's because it's an Anarchist's argument. Absolutely. The state is the monopolization of violence. In standard situational conflict the winner is the one that can escalate force the fastest and longest, but not all paths need to be direct to be won. Warfare is the game of the oppressor. What if instead of killing an authority figure you manipulate them, or gain their sympathy, or operate covertly?
100% correct about U.S. long term strategy. They can absolutely project force and take land, but lack the will to hold it. That's something that was exploited. The terrain absolutely was a factor, but you only take what you can defend. Today we have an empire that's on the verge of collapse and an Afghani populace that is doing what it did before occupation. Also, Germans still had problems with insurgency and in the end lost. Asymmetrical warfare is always an option. If there is a guy in the swamps of Louisiana who believes the Federal government is illegitimate and all day he is making full-autos and growing weed is he really conquered? Same with "extremists" that get to spend all day spreading ideology. The state may say "Sure! We won. They're outliers and we'll get them eventually. Look at what we have", but I would say that's evidence that the State is not omnipresent and has weaknesses. The only cop a person needs to kill is the one in their mind. It's a tricky thing. You can easily look around and say that the Nation-state is stronger than ever before. The weapons are the most sophisticated, censorship is at an all time high, spying is unlimited, but I see more people than ever distrusting news, skeptical of centralized power, and seeking alternatives to "the grid".
@@socialismo52 "someone has as much authority over you as you allow it"
That statement is true but that is exactly the reason why authority exist on the first place people are interdependent on each other both physically and emotionally
As for converting leaders to your cause It either wills leads to a new ideology with the old leader or a new ideology with new leaders
A state is not omnipotent I'm well aware of that and I use it on my advantage in my personal life as well but say it has no influence over you is a fallacy
Yes people can revolt and it can be successful (history has shown that
But be carefull not all revolutions end in victory for the revolutionary )
I'm not American but seeing the state your country is saddens me (its like watching the fall of Rome 2 electronic buggalo)
By the way about the off the grid point is obvious why people don't choose it.(not really a comfortable existence is it)
1. What is the main request by the Athenians?
2. How do Melians respond to the request?
3. How successful were the Melians in persuading the Athenians?
4. Does the Melian Dialogue confirm the realist paradigm? How?
how can i answer these qustions?
Try applying the minimal common sense you use navigating traffic on the way to work.
Lol. Do your own fucking homework.
socialismo52 I did it thanks 🙏 ,, I have graduated 1 year ago
@@sumayaalhinai4704 what were the answers my guy im interested
LOL Spartans and friendship shouldn't be in the same sentence.
Friends don't let friends eat pig blood soup.
This... This aged horribly.