Firstly, thank you for all your good thoughts and wishes. It's been 4 years almost to the day and I thought I'd revisit the video my son posted. Yep, it was driver error all the way......my fault. My car seemed to accelerate through the hard-sandy run off. I braked hard, but never slowed down. I even looked down to see was I really pressing the brake? I looked up and there was the wall and bam.........I hit hard. My son cut out the rest of the video, but I was in excruciating pain. They extracted me from the car in a stretcher and I was taken to Antelope Valley Hospital. I laid in bed for 3 months to allow my back to heal. Turns out I broke 5 lumbar vertebrae (2 were compression breaks) as well as my left foot. Ironically, the left foot took the longest to heal. So now I'm about 1 inch shorter and will live in pain for the rest of my life. I believe the seat, which was very well bolted to the sub-floor, tore loose and the bracket broke, which caused the seat to move forward and put the downward pressure on my back. Simply grading the run-off and making it soft sand along with a tire barrier are inexpensive fixes and would have made all the difference in the world. I went to the owner 2 years later and described my accident and suggested the changes, but he shrugged as if he's heard this story plenty of times before. I also suggested if the racers saw that he had a coherent plan, they would gladly pay a higher entrance fee to pay for it. Stay safe!!
I'm so sorry for your accident, and thank you for sharing the video. I feel that watching the videos of incidents can give a great sense of awareness of the risks at those particular sectors and/or maneuvers. I really hope you will recover completely!
Willow is dangerous. Has been since before 1970. Many folks have lost their lives there. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve raced there and I have always thought that turn two is arguably the most dangerous turn on the track, strongly challenged for that dubious honor by turn eight. So glad this turned out OK.
The problem is Willow doesn't have to be dangerous. It's got plenty of space to build some nice smooth runoffs, and the elevation change isn't that crazy compared with many other tracks. It's the crappy track pavement and runoffs that kill people. In other words, it's the cheap maintenance that kills people, not the track itself. What a shame
@@nodical802 of course. But most track owners will try to make their tracks as safe as possible. Again, WSIR can easily be safer without losing its speed and fun, which benefits everyone. Why do you think it’s the cheapest track to rent these days in California… also it has not seen any races above the regional level for many years… all for the same reason.
Thanks for the wake-up call. Big Willow is my home track. Been off at 1, 3, 6 and 9. I run in a Miata so my top speed is 105. My average speed around the track is 92 though. I'm in the spine business. What vertebrae were affected. thorasic or lumbar. did they have to fuse many levels? This is a serious injury either way.
Tbh, I am so glad the new owner of willow spring are taking over the place soon, hope they gonna make the willow great again. Good drive, good to know you healed from such a impacter.
Holy shit. watched various Willow lap vids as research for a video game, observed the texture of the sides of the track. Didn't look at the title, my eyes went so wide. Vid did show me a lot more of the track sides than I had imagined, but five vertebrae, damn. Scary how that line looked so perfectly fine and innocent until the ride suddenly started oscillating.
Oh man, so sorry to see this happen! Heart breaking. Hope you are ok. cars can be replaced or fixed, but your well being is most important. Hope you recover quickly and back to racing some day soon.
I have been on Big Willow a number of times. Seeing your video I an not sure how it happened. You were mid track which is where you want be. Under control and not going overly fast. What happened?
I like the idea of tracking my car but the more accidents I watch the more I think I should just content myself with the racing sims and just drive my car on the street
My first trackday was here. Someone brought their brand new Mitusbishi Evo that was very expensive and track built trailered there. Oversteered the last turn onto the straight and spun around and flipped a whole bunch of times landing upright in the infield. They left it there and the guy went to the hospital so for the rest of the track day, as you were coming to the final straight, the wrecked car was a reminder not to mess up. Remember seeing the video from inside the car on youtube
I understand the idea, but having a wrecked car out in the track runoff is bad for safety because if cars go off, they have a chance of impacting the car which can transmit more damage because it's body metal can turn into a cutting saw at high speed. This is why flags are thrown and damaged cars are recovered immediately. I've heard that this track in general is very negligent with safety and has poor runoff and pavement design so I'm not at all surprised they left that car out in the field and use the excuse of it being a "reminder". I think it's more of a reminder of the negligence of the track management. I would not race at this track, my life is not worth the profits of a psychopath owner who puts profit over safety.
That is the time you stop and go home. Because clearly whoever is running the track that day doesn't care about you. Remember if one car can crash and land in a certain spot there is a good chance if you go off in the same spot you are going to hit that car.
Never been there, probably don’t know what I’m talking about here- but why is there a giant berm acting as a brick wall, rather than a run-off of dirt or sand?
Willow Springs was built way back in 53 and hasn't really changed since. Its a pretty big track and what he hit was basically the wall to prevent drivers going out and hitting fences and possibly houses. Its located in the middle of the desert and the town of Rosamond, the town you basically enter if you go there, doesn't really give a shit or doesn't want a change as its a historic landmark its a 50/50.
I was curious, if he was wearing a neck restraint, and which one? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to share here. The seat coming loose is a big worry of mine for side impacts. I never considered the implications for a frontal impact. Hoping for quick healing for your dad.
Damn this track there might as well be a greased field right off of the pavement. Has anyone in America ever heard of gravel traps??? They make mistakes like these something you can live through. Maybe for tracks like these it would be advisable to have an ejection seat and parachute.
1:47. tap the gas and turn-in slightly, then did the same 1/2 second later. Car's rear started to come around which almost seems like what the drive wanted to do in an effort to tighten-up the turn. Once the oversteer started, he would have been better off trying to slide it through the turn very gently instead of trying to come out of oversteer . Either way, not an easy fix in that turn at that speed for that car. Hope your dad healed well!
I was thinking, wouldn't it have been better to lift off the throttle as soon as he started oversteering? Also in any case oversteering is better than understeering in a corner like this.
@@DrDrift-rl6cc No sir (but idk tho... i am trying to recreate this crash in my racing simulator rn), the porsche RR setup works like this: throttle = understeer (plows straight, great traction.... super hard to make it rotate (feels like a strange AWD car), off throttle = oversteer (will rotate like crazy, front gets grip and the rear gets none, the force of the engine no longer pressing down, guiding you forward.... think of it like balancing a shovel upsidedown via the handle). * Note to self, always try to crash rear first as your back will slam into the seat BACK not towards the steering wheel! IDK tho, if I was the driver, I would have 1st always considered how I would crash on each turn if I had to. There is an art of crashing that the racing simulators have taught me...Imma nered to to reasearch
Watching this at first I was like "oh, look at all that space he has to scrub off some speed" and then I quickly realized that he needed 5 times that space... :-(
+Dick Handler I'd say it was a combination of old heat cycled tires, and a bit too much mid corner speed. That caused the car to drift offline to the outside of turn 2 where the track is quite dirty/ slippery.
+evan c those corrections looked a bit too harsh from the videos point of view. Maybe just smoother and smaller corrections could have saved it. Never driven a Porsche on willow so I can't give first hand advise for that car but when my back end gets a little loose in my rx-7 small smooth corrections seems to get me through. Smooth is fast! Nice car!
He apexxed way too early and then once he tried to adjust his angle mid corner he had to much speed for the tires to bite, some braking here would've helped once he realized his apex was too early, if he did realize that. Gentle angles and soft hands can prevent this from happening. But also this track has no run off for being one of the fastest tracks on the west coast.
looked like when he let off on the throttle, the front end grabbed quicker than he could correct and off he went. 911 get light in the front when under power an when letting off the Front wheels gains some traction.
I avoid this track even in sim racing. Barely any brake markers and so easy to loose your place in a turn and under steer off track. Incredible that they still have the ditches that flip your car when you go off. One small mistake and you will be seriously injured and the car totaled.
You made a mistake with your foot work when you went on and off throttle abruptly while the rears had broken traction which caused that tank slapper, you should have just let off until you gained traction again.
Baaad. Yes jiggling the throttle was likely not the best to do, it let go fast at one throttle off point, lift offs even for a moment are not good. That circuit looks like it gets dusty too.
I want to get me a Rush sr1 to take here and drive. I always wanted to race cars since i was a kid . I race dirt bikes but i found out i can get a race car brand new street illegal single seater for 29k!!! Im so excited
They always oversteer. When a car gets sideways, the front somewhat maintains its original line and trying to correct is almost always too much. Drifters understand this better than anyone, they feel the car ride out. Watch them, they don't manhandle it, they let the car do the work. ua-cam.com/video/rKv2p_o1FUA/v-deo.html watch 2:14-2:15 at .25 speed. The car automatically corrects when it oversteers. This is an extreme example but it shows what the car naturally wants to do- correct itself. No need to fight it.
yeah besides this is a bmw and not a 911 with all the weight in the back, front engine so much easier to drift thats why u NEVER see a 911 as a driftcar
Willow Springs is no more dangerous than most road courses around the country. It is a very fast track. I've been on this track over 40 times. It appeared that he overcorrected for ab issue. I don't think he was driving too fast. He was driving an excellent track car. I have no idea what condition the tires were in. Once you're in the sand it's hard to control a car. I hope the driver is doing well.
Try Chuckwalla or even just Buttonwillow, and you will see how easy it is to control a car that's going straight-line in the sand. I didn't see any sand in the video here, all I saw was bricks, rocks, and rough surface that is impossible to slow down a car
So, to answer a lot of questions regarding Williow Springs; It was built in 53 and is regarded as a Historic Landmark. There are houses, fences and other shit on the other side of that birm so they would rather you hit the birm than to run the track, fences and possibly into someone's house or one of their auto garages. That's what I assume of course. I sure as fuck don't want to walk down that dirt road and have a speeding track car come at me.
Still doesn't explain why the runoff is so rough that he couldn't really brake to slow down, or why there isn't a tire wall at least to reduce the impact. The real reason is simple: willow is run by some cheap ass snobs who refuse to make their property better.
Firstly, thank you for all your good thoughts and wishes.
It's been 4 years almost to the day and I thought I'd revisit the video my son posted. Yep, it was driver error all the way......my fault. My car seemed to accelerate through the hard-sandy run off. I braked hard, but never slowed down. I even looked down to see was I really pressing the brake? I looked up and there was the wall and bam.........I hit hard.
My son cut out the rest of the video, but I was in excruciating pain. They extracted me from the car in a stretcher and I was taken to Antelope Valley Hospital. I laid in bed for 3 months to allow my back to heal. Turns out I broke 5 lumbar vertebrae (2 were compression breaks) as well as my left foot. Ironically, the left foot took the longest to heal. So now I'm about 1 inch shorter and will live in pain for the rest of my life. I believe the seat, which was very well bolted to the sub-floor, tore loose and the bracket broke, which caused the seat to move forward and put the downward pressure on my back.
Simply grading the run-off and making it soft sand along with a tire barrier are inexpensive fixes and would have made all the difference in the world. I went to the owner 2 years later and described my accident and suggested the changes, but he shrugged as if he's heard this story plenty of times before. I also suggested if the racers saw that he had a coherent plan, they would gladly pay a higher entrance fee to pay for it.
Stay safe!!
Thanks for the description thank you for sharing
Thanks for the description. Wishing the best for you!
I'm so sorry for your accident, and thank you for sharing the video. I feel that watching the videos of incidents can give a great sense of awareness of the risks at those particular sectors and/or maneuvers. I really hope you will recover completely!
Sorry to hear about the incident. Its frustrating to hear that the track owner is not interested in improving track safety.
What was the driver error?
Willow is dangerous. Has been since before 1970. Many folks have lost their lives there. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve raced there and I have always thought that turn two is arguably the most dangerous turn on the track, strongly challenged for that dubious honor by turn eight. So glad this turned out OK.
The problem is Willow doesn't have to be dangerous. It's got plenty of space to build some nice smooth runoffs, and the elevation change isn't that crazy compared with many other tracks. It's the crappy track pavement and runoffs that kill people. In other words, it's the cheap maintenance that kills people, not the track itself. What a shame
@@RacerCurtis still relevant after the repave for anyone curious.
@@RacerCurtis because owner is cheaper as fuck.
@@RacerCurtis a race track will never not be dangerous
@@nodical802 of course. But most track owners will try to make their tracks as safe as possible. Again, WSIR can easily be safer without losing its speed and fun, which benefits everyone. Why do you think it’s the cheapest track to rent these days in California… also it has not seen any races above the regional level for many years… all for the same reason.
even with full roll cage and harness still hurt like that? OMG, hope your dad is ok
Thanks for the wake-up call. Big Willow is my home track. Been off at 1, 3, 6 and 9. I run in a Miata so my top speed is 105. My average speed around the track is 92 though. I'm in the spine business. What vertebrae were affected. thorasic or lumbar. did they have to fuse many levels? This is a serious injury either way.
I went to one of my SCCA driver schools to get my race license at Willow….but that was 35 years ago. Still looks about the same.
that was scary...those straights were pretty fast, and that track was so wide open... hope you are better!
Tbh, I am so glad the new owner of willow spring are taking over the place soon, hope they gonna make the willow great again. Good drive, good to know you healed from such a impacter.
Is there any real renovation plan for the track pavement and runoffs? I mean they could make this place as nice as chuckwalla if they want to
@@RacerCurtis I heard the street of willow getting refreshed already.
@@elile7599 I just checked that out today lol. Far from a complete repave. It was only a few big cracks and bumps that got fixed.
Holy shit. watched various Willow lap vids as research for a video game, observed the texture of the sides of the track. Didn't look at the title, my eyes went so wide. Vid did show me a lot more of the track sides than I had imagined, but five vertebrae, damn. Scary how that line looked so perfectly fine and innocent until the ride suddenly started oscillating.
sorry to hear that I hope you heal quickly!
Oh man, so sorry to see this happen! Heart breaking. Hope you are ok. cars can be replaced or fixed, but your well being is most important. Hope you recover quickly and back to racing some day soon.
qikqbn77 Thank you for your kind thoughts and well wishes.
I have been on Big Willow a number of times. Seeing your video I an not sure how it happened. You were mid track which is where you want be. Under control and not going overly fast. What happened?
willow spring is probably the worst in facility. once a car is out of control, it is just too easy to roll and crash.
jeff zhu it's called a go-kart track in the desert it's not a grand pre track, don't like it don't race there lol
this track is not for go karts bud
How many times you been there?
@@VaunShiz it is not a go-kart track. Clearly you’ve never raced there
If you’re still scared, just say it
Dangerous track for sure, always worries me to push @ Willow. I felt the pain brother wishing you the best.
I like the idea of tracking my car but the more accidents I watch the more I think I should just content myself with the racing sims and just drive my car on the street
That's a terrible track, there's not enough run off anywhere for the speed of this place. They don't maintain the track surface either.
damn scott, never knew this even happened. Not sure why there arent more tires around wsir.
Fuck glad you’re okay. I was just there today in my c8. Makes me really question if this track is worth driving to the limit. So unforgiving
Wow! How has the recovery gone? I hope he's doing great!
... man, i am very sorry for you. hopefully you feel better in the meantime!!!
My first trackday was here. Someone brought their brand new Mitusbishi Evo that was very expensive and track built trailered there. Oversteered the last turn onto the straight and spun around and flipped a whole bunch of times landing upright in the infield. They left it there and the guy went to the hospital so for the rest of the track day, as you were coming to the final straight, the wrecked car was a reminder not to mess up. Remember seeing the video from inside the car on youtube
I understand the idea, but having a wrecked car out in the track runoff is bad for safety because if cars go off, they have a chance of impacting the car which can transmit more damage because it's body metal can turn into a cutting saw at high speed. This is why flags are thrown and damaged cars are recovered immediately. I've heard that this track in general is very negligent with safety and has poor runoff and pavement design so I'm not at all surprised they left that car out in the field and use the excuse of it being a "reminder". I think it's more of a reminder of the negligence of the track management. I would not race at this track, my life is not worth the profits of a psychopath owner who puts profit over safety.
That is the time you stop and go home. Because clearly whoever is running the track that day doesn't care about you. Remember if one car can crash and land in a certain spot there is a good chance if you go off in the same spot you are going to hit that car.
Ouch. Is there any safety gear for the car that could have softened the blow to the driver's back?
Was at Streets Friday night and watched 4 hour night race going on at Big. Most guys went off at top of track. 8 and 9 scare the crap out of me.
Never been there, probably don’t know what I’m talking about here- but why is there a giant berm acting as a brick wall, rather than a run-off of dirt or sand?
Willow Springs was built way back in 53 and hasn't really changed since. Its a pretty big track and what he hit was basically the wall to prevent drivers going out and hitting fences and possibly houses. Its located in the middle of the desert and the town of Rosamond, the town you basically enter if you go there, doesn't really give a shit or doesn't want a change as its a historic landmark its a 50/50.
I was curious, if he was wearing a neck restraint, and which one? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to share here. The seat coming loose is a big worry of mine for side impacts. I never considered the implications for a frontal impact. Hoping for quick healing for your dad.
Hello Chris. Yes he was wearing the Hans II, with 6 point schroth mounted at the appropriate angle spec. Thank you for your message.
This is probably what would happen to me :( Hope he's OK now
Damn this track there might as well be a greased field right off of the pavement. Has anyone in America ever heard of gravel traps??? They make mistakes like these something you can live through. Maybe for tracks like these it would be advisable to have an ejection seat and parachute.
Very fast and sometimes scary track without much forgiveness.
I prefer the streets of Willow.
Bummer this happened.
No Monday morning QB here.
Willow springs is dangerous. I seen a lot of vids just like this.
Once your off the tarmac you've had it!
The thing about willow is once you're off the track, you just have to hope the dirt can stop you fast enough.
Something broke on the car or driver error? I've raced here many times in my Triumph TR4A. Beat many Porsches. Split window Vette beat all the others.
1:47. tap the gas and turn-in slightly, then did the same 1/2 second later. Car's rear started to come around which almost seems like what the drive wanted to do in an effort to tighten-up the turn. Once the oversteer started, he would have been better off trying to slide it through the turn very gently instead of trying to come out of oversteer . Either way, not an easy fix in that turn at that speed for that car. Hope your dad healed well!
I was thinking, wouldn't it have been better to lift off the throttle as soon as he started oversteering? Also in any case oversteering is better than understeering in a corner like this.
@@DrDrift-rl6cc No sir (but idk tho... i am trying to recreate this crash in my racing simulator rn), the porsche RR setup works like this: throttle = understeer (plows straight, great traction.... super hard to make it rotate (feels like a strange AWD car), off throttle = oversteer (will rotate like crazy, front gets grip and the rear gets none, the force of the engine no longer pressing down, guiding you forward.... think of it like balancing a shovel upsidedown via the handle).
* Note to self, always try to crash rear first as your back will slam into the seat BACK not towards the steering wheel! IDK tho, if I was the driver, I would have 1st always considered how I would crash on each turn if I had to. There is an art of crashing that the racing simulators have taught me...Imma nered to to reasearch
Geez. It could have been worse but thankfully he was ok.
Watching this at first I was like "oh, look at all that space he has to scrub off some speed" and then I quickly realized that he needed 5 times that space... :-(
why tf is there a big ass hill right there. Looks like they made it
Damn that was a big hit...
Any idea what caused the car to wobble and lose control? Was it just too much speed into the turn?
+Dick Handler I'd say it was a combination of old heat cycled tires, and a bit too much mid corner speed. That caused the car to drift offline to the outside of turn 2 where the track is quite dirty/ slippery.
+evan c those corrections looked a bit too harsh from the videos point of view. Maybe just smoother and smaller corrections could have saved it. Never driven a Porsche on willow so I can't give first hand advise for that car but when my back end gets a little loose in my rx-7 small smooth corrections seems to get me through. Smooth is fast! Nice car!
Porsche's like throttle, get loose pull out and things get tricky fast
He apexxed way too early and then once he tried to adjust his angle mid corner he had to much speed for the tires to bite, some braking here would've helped once he realized his apex was too early, if he did realize that. Gentle angles and soft hands can prevent this from happening. But also this track has no run off for being one of the fastest tracks on the west coast.
looked like when he let off on the throttle, the front end grabbed quicker than he could correct and off he went. 911 get light in the front when under power an when letting off the Front wheels gains some traction.
I avoid this track even in sim racing. Barely any brake markers and so easy to loose your place in a turn and under steer off track. Incredible that they still have the ditches that flip your car when you go off. One small mistake and you will be seriously injured and the car totaled.
front went light , ouch
Oh man, he's grunting due to pain. Hope he's OK. Hope Porsche OK.
There should be a tire wall instead of concrete. Dangerous track
Classic lift off oversteer
You made a mistake with your foot work when you went on and off throttle abruptly while the rears had broken traction which caused that tank slapper, you should have just let off until you gained traction again.
That sucks😢
That hurt
You let go of the steering wheel.
Ouch ouch ouch!
why would they leave that stupid sand hill there..there is no way out ..sorry to hear about your dads accident..
Cheap shitty condition track.
wow man that was just crazy. The proper line to take it has such a small margin for error this could have happened to anyone. Glad he's ok.
anyone? not really
Baaad. Yes jiggling the throttle was likely not the best to do, it let go fast at one throttle off point, lift offs even for a moment are not good. That circuit looks like it gets dusty too.
When inertia takes over
I want to get me a Rush sr1 to take here and drive. I always wanted to race cars since i was a kid . I race dirt bikes but i found out i can get a race car brand new street illegal single seater for 29k!!! Im so excited
They always oversteer. When a car gets sideways, the front somewhat maintains its original line and trying to correct is almost always too much. Drifters understand this better than anyone, they feel the car ride out. Watch them, they don't manhandle it, they let the car do the work.
ua-cam.com/video/rKv2p_o1FUA/v-deo.html
watch 2:14-2:15 at .25 speed. The car automatically corrects when it oversteers. This is an extreme example but it shows what the car naturally wants to do- correct itself. No need to fight it.
yeah besides this is a bmw and not a 911 with all the weight in the back, front engine so much easier to drift thats why u NEVER see a 911 as a driftcar
Willow Springs is no more dangerous than most road courses around the country. It is a very fast track. I've been on this track over 40 times. It appeared that he overcorrected for ab issue. I don't think he was driving too fast. He was driving an excellent track car. I have no idea what condition the tires were in. Once you're in the sand it's hard to control a car. I hope the driver is doing well.
Try Chuckwalla or even just Buttonwillow, and you will see how easy it is to control a car that's going straight-line in the sand. I didn't see any sand in the video here, all I saw was bricks, rocks, and rough surface that is impossible to slow down a car
shouldn t go on before learning control a drift
If you failed on a corner in Willow spring, you couldn't save it
shit for this crash... is the car sold? and was it a gt3 cup?
So, to answer a lot of questions regarding Williow Springs; It was built in 53 and is regarded as a Historic Landmark. There are houses, fences and other shit on the other side of that birm so they would rather you hit the birm than to run the track, fences and possibly into someone's house or one of their auto garages. That's what I assume of course. I sure as fuck don't want to walk down that dirt road and have a speeding track car come at me.
Still doesn't explain why the runoff is so rough that he couldn't really brake to slow down, or why there isn't a tire wall at least to reduce the impact. The real reason is simple: willow is run by some cheap ass snobs who refuse to make their property better.
I think I'll just stick with sim racing.