LS GOES OFF On Why The Meta Isn't The Meta
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- Опубліковано 11 лис 2023
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"it's never about who you are, it's about what you're saying" is the truest most gigachad based-est statement ever and why i will always respect LS even when he starts balding
it says a lot if you will still respect him even if he’s bald
I'm turning 25 and I'm pretty much bald :(
whats wrong with balding
This is the nth time that LS is talking about this and it's still needed.
critics tend not to follow or even remember what someone they dont like has said. Also new people show up and have never heard these points before.
It's like the people you play in card tournaments that go 1-6. And when you try to give them advice on how to improve, they'll reference their one win as to why you're wrong.
shout out to reven here
I understand LS's frustration and he is emotional sure but he has a point
reven is just really calmly explaining the other side as best he can
helps for good discussion and contrast
I actually think LS and Reven is the best combo in terms of game logic discussions exactly because of this.
Think LS is kind of acting like a man child, it’s bull shit to simultaneously entertain just about everyone’s argument and then get perma one guyed over and over
Regardless of how you feel about the guy he's never afraid to say sht and he's passionate about improving league and the proscene. Also he's definitely a WoW player by the way he's balding.
man i remember back in the day when one patch note changed the meta of at least 2 roles and item builds for half of the champs
I really enjoy listening to Nick talk, it was a nice and very needed talk.
i love how passionate LS is abt game analysis
I appreciate LS and what he's saying.
The funniest part of this is that Sam is trying to explain to him the Meta of "talking to people," and that's the thing LS won't engage with in a way reminiscient of the problems that he's delineating in the professional league scene.
I don't think he should respect the person either, nor should LS be the one responsible for educating every person coming at him who are more interested in arguing than learning.
But if the meta of talking to people became "crush them while respecting that this is the worst part of them, until the only part left of them is the part that wants to earnestly learn or improves" -- then I don't think LS would change strategies too quickly. And that's as someone who's one of the best at what they do.
Ls doesnt have to be nice to people who disagree with him. He can be condescending all he wants. That's his prerogative. He could lay out the perfect argument with 100 sources and video clips etc. but at the end of the day people don't listen to condescension.
Exactly. And the current pro's will still get jobs without adapting, and with only few people being particularly upset at them for it.@@ACE112ACE112
So for once I have to disagree with LS. Meta does in fact NOT mean "most efficient tactic availlable". Thats just the result of people trying to make a greek prefix (meta = beyond) into an acronym for some reason. Meta does by common definition describe the most used tactics by the best players. "Metagaming" means something like "playing the system of the game instead of the game". Which in practise means very different things depending on the game. E.g. in cardgames "metagming" would be to show up to a tournament not necessarily with the best deck in a vacuum, but with the deck that beats the best deck as prescribed by the most players. So while LS is correct that the "best tactic" on any given patch cannot change as the game doesnt change, the meta very much can change.
I'm actually baffled that coming from a card game background LS can think that meta = most efficient tactic available or think that the meta changing requires a patch change.
In almost any card game the decks people play will gradually cycle as more people play deck a that can beat popular deck b more people will like the meta position of deck c which has a good match up against a, etc etc.
While it's true that meta is not an acronym and that the common definition for the word (the way it's understood by most people) is the tactics most used by the best players, the problem arises from the fact that most people equate that definition to exactly that acronym, in one way or another. In fact, you can clearly tell that even pro players don't use the meaning of the word that you described. Hearing statements such as "The meta didn't suit us" from pro players after they are eliminated from a tournament is all-too-common and clearly the definition of "the most used tactics by the best players" doesn't make sense in such a sentence, since nothing forces them to play what other pros play. In that sentence clearly the definition carried by the backronym is implied, and so we're back to exactly what LS said. In fact, the problem is that most people, pros and casters included, assume that the two definitions are equivalent, which as we can see cannot be true with the most played champions rapidly changing in an unchanging game. LS is really trying to just point to that fact.
In addition, the card games example you gave is clearly inapplicable to league drafting since drafting in league is face-up - games are not blind pick and unlike card game tournaments, you get to construct your "deck" with precise knowledge of your opponent's "deck". In a sense, you don't need to guess what the most popular "decks" at the tournament will be, because you don't need a "deck" to hold it's own against any other "deck" at the tournament - you need the one which will perform the best against the one that your opponent is showing you, which by no means has to be in any way related to the rest of the "decks" at the tournament, popularity gives the "deck" no power in an isolated game setting.
@@Rissper. While it's true that you can change picks on the fly vs whatever draft your opponent does in League, you're still facing the problem that you may not have practised the theoretical counters vs said draft. So in that sense you do have to make a meta call beforehand, assuming you (the pro player) cannot play every single champ at the highest level at any given time and has to focus their practise on a specific subset of champions that they think will be "meta". So in that sense when a pro says "the meta didn't suit us" doesn't really make sense, I agree with that, but a statement like "we didn't predict the meta correctly and therefor prepared the wrong champions before the tournament" would sound reasonable to me. I know that LS sometimes assumes (or at least seems to assume) that a pro player should be able to play every champion at any time at a high level but that very clearly is not the case. Idk what the reason for that is, I don't have any insights into the scene and don't want to speculate.
@@TheNorwegianThunder yup. I haven't found anything to substantiate the claim that meta/metagaming = acronym. im still gathering my thoughts/sources. I'll try to remember to drop some links that provide evidence to suggest meta/metagaming is not an acronym
It's like you didn't even listen to what he was saying. In the video, he literally says: "the meta will always be the best response to what your opponent is playing". This is his whole argument. If he has the stance that you are saying, he would always pick the same 5 champs in draft and ignore the entire enemy comp. The best tactic is unchanging, because your way of drafting should be unchanging, i.e answer your opponent's picks. This means for blue side: pick the best/most efficient blind and for red side: answer with a counter/pick 2 more safe blinds. This is why red side should be stronger, as it has access to the first and last counterpicks: two versus the "safest" and "strongest" blind champion and one versus the entire enemy team comp.
You're so real for this, go off king
He's not taking this BS anymore lol.
Ls is the only hope I have tht this game can be saved XD pls don’t quit
it ain't getting saved. people are not listening to him well enough. he's been saying this stuff for so long.
deadass
Even though LS has changed a good amount of picks, I don’t think we will get a lot of pros, actually trying to figure out, what counters what and how to draft on the fly, with finding blind picks, that can be flexed. Only team that ever did that, was G2, if it comes down to a lot of flexing and ADCs even being able to contribute to that flex. Like the syndra or the gragas yasuo.
I hated that bot changes when mages were played there at first, but nowadays, I want bot to change, because everyone keeps sticking to ADCs, when there is WAY more options.
Be ziggs, Cassio (can be really good with twich), Senna n friends (tahm, cho, Seraphine, swain, ziggs, karthus, Sion, zilean,etc)
Double poke bots (xerath, ziggs, varus, sivir, vel koz, Lux, caitlyn, etc.)
Combos that counter hard engage, (poppy anivia) (veigar ziggs) (kindred taric)
Just champion combos that are ridiculously strong together, who can even be mutliflexed, ivern rengar, who would probably only be countered by something like juggernaut+ enchanter. (Olaf, Darius, udyr)
Or just the fact that some champs can be put in really weird spots, if the enemy match up, is ok. Like orianna instead going support in one of the t1 JDG drafts and instead putting a kassadin on mid, when all we usually ever see is orianna mid.
Seraphine on toplane into tanks, enchanters in general on toplane into tanks.
There is way to many different draft sequences, to test them all out, but there is a lot of interesting once, when players know, how to play many different champion archetypes and teamcomp archetypes.
@@tomwanders6022completely agree. But defending pros a little bit, i think that needs to be said that the competitive environment isnt suitable to that much experimentation. Im sure many players entertain the thought of playing a huge array of champions to counter x,y,z but they just dont have the freedom to do so. I do agree with the fact that 5 ms or 3 ad changes are obsolete changes and if a champion is inherently good or overtuned, there is no way that makes an effort into balancing it.
Thank for no one’s listening to LS 🙏
idk its always the same with the Internet and LS. Best example was when people could pay LS for time in a call. The first person didnt even know what he wanted to talk about. Because he didnt even try to think ahead of action and response. Then they're just running mouths and talk about shit they dont even fully understand to someone who LITTERLY came from the gutters and became a respected expert AND millionare in the topic. Its litterly the equivalent of me running to shac and run my mouth over Basketball, just because i played some in junior High. People should realise some shit about respect, how to propperly analyze and then discuss shit. Maybe then they dont get completly obliderated in a discussion and have no need of attacking the person behind the statements.
Based LS. First he had a really good rant about content creation back at MSI this year with how the audience of League doesn’t care about information and facts anymore. Now, he continues the journey by striking again at pro players because no one is correcting either side. (Most) Pro players are just as static as league’s patch notes and (most) content creation is just emotional rather than intellectual. Even LS’s content creation is more emotional than intellectual and he knows that.
I know your content has changed LS, but I hope you still never change and remain as the gigachad you are. There are people like you that want more informative content, but I personally blame social media’s algorithm for pushing emotional content rather than informative and intellectual content.
meta =/= most efficient tactic available. It is not an acronym it's the contraction of metagame. meta- stands for something that is on a higher level and encompassing. Metanarrative = narrative about the narrative. metagame/metagaming: high level view/discussion about game that encompasses both the current state and the most efficient tactics overall or in context and all the game theory elements.
It can happen a dominant strategy is discovered and players shift to that: the meta is solved (for mtg eldrazi winter, combo winter, hogaak summer,... for lol stuff like ardent meta). Before that the meta is evolving.
It can happen there's a rock paper scissor (or rock paper scissor lizard Spock) situation. Then a dominant strategy doesn't exist and while a global meta can be identified, there are also local/temporary metas depending on the ebbs and flows of popularity
I'm pretty confused a card game player would get so perplexed by that world as to make a whole video arguing in favor of the wrong usage when the casters are correct.
pretty real and true again this is why i like ls :)
balding
Dota is a lot more like what LS talking about here then league is, its sad that DOTA players and staff is more "free" in their thinking about the game...
I don’t play a lot of DOTA, but it doesn’t have clear cut roles right? Or is it nowadays more something like (what I have heard) double lane vs single lane jungle +midlane.
@tomwanders6022 There are clear roles in the game like LOL. But unlike league, the champs itself r not have to be bound by 1 role but r highly suggested to be in that particular role. So some players think outside of the box and able to use some champ that got suggested by the dev to go in 1 role and make it work in other roles as well. Riot actively don't want this because of reasons I don't want to discuss here since it can get very heated very quickly.
@@thunderhead8367 as a dota enjoyer but league player, i'm interested to know what you mean by that last part lol
@biruitor1680 take the sp roam top as an example. It take sp champs to top lane and Riot is actively don't want that to happen so they change/nerf the sp items for that. Or the sp Seraphine, where if Riot buff her she will be op on that role. Or Sona got sharfted on every build expect her enchanter build because she too good at those builds and too ez 2 play (but not the same treatment for Kata thought). But in Dota, you can play any champ in any role and Icefrog don't care about it because the game is balanced around items first. Io is a good example for this as he is intended to be hard sp (sp role in LOL) but have great success on carry role (adc/apc in LOL) and no one nerf/change him so that he can only be play as his intended role.
@@thunderhead8367 in fairness io is one of the few heroes in dota that suffers from so many proplay nerfs like many league champs do lol. i just like how pretty much every hero has some level of viability in pro dota, wish we would get some more of that in league. was a good time a few years ago when FPX won worlds on some silly picks
LS really will talk with anyone fr. i respect that because hes always been really good at engaging with his audience
3:58 This depends on who you talk to.
Meta could also mean the strategy most popular at the time. The term meta was originally derived from the word metagame, a phrase used to refer to people playing the game differently over time as a result of interactions with one another. Hence the word meta (to self reference).
Using meta as an acronym came much later on specifically within the MMO community.
In it's most broad sense you talking about the meaning of meta and how people come up with strategies is also the meta.
yeah, Most Efficient Tactic Available is one of the best examples of a backronym
I remember when my friends couldnt understand when I said that the meta is what they think its the antimeta because the most efficient tactic availiable aka the meta is what beats the most popular tactic used, etc. (I mean technically there is a graphic optimization about strongest tactic hollistically vs strongest tactic vs most popular tactic and at certain point you find the optimal strat overall which is n either the most popular or the best vs the popular, except if everybody uses the popular and you are the black sheep, cuz then there arent 2 variables to optimize so the best against the popular is the best period.) but the issue is that people doesnt understand the meaning of meta because of how empty the word became via people using it non stop to talk about the popular strat and antimeta as outsider strats, when thats not what meta means by definition and yeah we end up in a language issue that I hate because I feel the same when people arguing talk about definitions and I use the etimological objective dennotative and they are non stop with subjective connotative wrong definition and yeah in conclusion, I feel ya.
I don't think Crownie being wrong on ADC supports necesarily means he didn't do his "homework".
I never knew META stood for something. I always thought it was meta like “meta-Knowledge.” As in using knowledge around the circumstances of what people perceive to be strong. For example, a few patches ago a TON of people could safely blind pick Azir because they believed that no one else (or at least their opponent) doesn’t play/know the counter
It doesn't LS is actually wrong here Meta is a Greek prefix/preposition for Beyond/after. In gaming the meta is most often meant as what most pro players play. I understand why he belives what he said but it isn't.
The way LS used it is a backronym created by MMO players.
The way the casters used the term in the clip is correct.
@@littlemacu lmao, in gaming, Meta is just "most efficient tactics available". This term literally existed since the early day of competitive gaming. Even if we go by the definition of meta game = "Beyond the game", it literally means that "stepping outside of what is directly experienced within the match and looking at the wider context" or in simple terms "most efficient tactics available" or "best strat avaiable".
In the past or in other games where people care about what actually the best strats there are, those best strats "happen" to be used wisely by pro players since they are the one who care the most about winning (people spam the most OP thing to win, crazy right? I know). In short: a strat is the best => it helps pro players win more => pro players spam it, this is a one-way conclusion. It's not that pro players spam it => it must be strong => it must be meta.
@@user-sz9or2ne5o It's not what it means. It has existed since the early days of competitive gaming but it just refers to how play is influenced by previous matches. It was popularized by Magic: the Gathering creator Richard Garfield in discussions about how when you're building a deck, you don't only build based on what is powerful at the time, but also taking into account what others are building (based on what's powerful and what they expect to face, etc.) and what you expect to face. It actually really does just refer to the environment that you're playing in (in terms of how past matches affect the match you're about to play). A game can have different environments, like NA server vs. Korea, which means that "the meta" will be different from place to place even though the game itself is structurally identical in both environments.
I sometimes selfishly wish ls wasn’t famous cause I’d just like to… like interview him. Bro could talk about any subject for hours and I’d listen
TL:DR Meta/metagaming predate any mention of acronyms (most effective/efficient tactic available). The strategies that players use can change when a games ruleset is unchanging. The caster(s) isn't/aren't spreading misinformation.
3:16 "I think the meta favors T1"-Caster (Feel free to tell me his name)
3:17 "Oh, stop using the word meta like this. Oh my god this is part of the problem man. Worlds has millions of fucking viewers and we're using language this way so it only continues to perpetuate."-LS
3:33 "Language is so important. Such a responsibility by casters and everyone. Like so sick."-LS
3:47 "Meta stands for most efficient tactic available. The most efficient tactic available has always and will always be to fucking respond to what the opponent is doing and layer it"-LS
4:30 "The strategies are changing that's more apt for what's actually happening. The meta isn't changing. The most efficient tactic is not changing. It's actually false to fucking say that.
So what they're doing is perpetuating the narrative that something is changing or altering the game and it's not. It is the same patch in 13.19 was virtually identical to 13.18 which was also virtually identical to 13.17 which was also virtually identical to 13.16." -LS
6:51 "These aren't like you know unfounded concepts... they've existed in other games for hundreds of years... these typs of ideologies exist in games that don't even have to do with games"-LS
I would like to see some examples as to what these concepts are, which games that have been around for hundreds of years with these concepts and examples of these concepts in their respective games.
LS cares about language. Here is information I found about what meta/metagaming means.
Meta is not an acronym. Meta/metagame is going beyond the game itself to devise strategies. Meta isn't a tactic by itself to mean responding to what opponents are doing. A game can be unchanging and still have different metas/strategies being used. The casters aren't perpetuating an incorrect usage of a word.
Metagame can also talk about the "environment itself" according to Mark Rosewater. source near bottom.
Would be cool if LS could provide a source that meta is the acronym: Most Efficient Tactic Available and that this acronym predates uses of Meta/metagaming in a gaming context.
= objectively best tactic-> respond to what opponents are doing + "layer". (I'm not exactly sure what he means by layer it).
LS also says on twitter:
"Meta predates modern esports, originally comes from card games pretty sure, it's not a backronym lol. Was used in early card game articles."
nitter.net/LSXYZ9/status/1723984756952662128#m
The 2 articles below describe meta as being from Greek. Both reference metaphysics. Meta has existed before card games, but I'm not sure if the video game meta-gaming concept was first used with card games.
Both mention meta as meaning self-referential. Dictionary.com says that meta in a gaming context is short for metagaming; meta is not an acronym.
"In the 1990s-2000s, meta took special root in online gaming communities when discussing the most successful strategies, characters, or weapons. While some claim this meta is an acronym for Most Effective Tactic Available (a folk etymology), it is short for metagaming, using knowledge about the game itself to beat the “game” of mastering that game."
www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/meta-adjective-self-referential
www.dictionary.com/e/pop-culture/meta/
Here are the articles/documents contradicting LS's claim that meta is an acronym. The word meta comes from greek and has been used in 1936 www.etymonline.com/word/meta-
Richard Garfield defines metagame "how a game interfaces with life" and uses Poker as an example.
The rules of Poker don't change, but how player experience the game will change. He also mentions that a game played with "the exact same rules will mean different meanings to different people."
He also makes the claim that implies that a lack of a metagame doesn't exist. Hence, "A game without a
metagame is like an idealized object in physics"
edt210gamestechsociety.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/2000-garfield-metagame.pdf
Rosewater claims that Wizard's R&D created the word metagame to describe the game beyond the game. (2006)
R&D came up with the term “metagame” to describe the game around the game. (And yes, it has two meanings since the word is also used now to talk about the environment itself.) The metagame is a major component of what makes Magic the game it is. When you crack open your very first pack, you're not just getting fifteen pieces of cardboard. You're getting an organized play system, online resources, a library of material, and numerous communities.
magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/good-it-gets-2006-06-05
mtg wiki uses the example of the card Shatter. paraphrasing. People use shatter to counter artifacts. People use less artifacts. Shatter is useless if opponents don't use artifacts.
mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Metagame#:~:text=The%20Magic%20metagame,-In%20Magic%2C%20%22Metagame&text=Simply%20put%3A%20%22what%20everyone%20else,called%20'playing%20the%20metagame'
Talks about the term meta-game. article written February 11, 2003 by Brian Gleichman
www.rpg.net/columns/elements/elements5.phtml
Magic the Gathering standard metagame from July 13, 2005. No mention of meta being an acronym.
www.spekkionu.com/2005/07/the-standard-metagame-tier-1-decks/
None of these articles/documents above mentions Meta being an acronym.
Earliest mention of meta = most efficient tactic available that I can find is in 2007 via this Google search:
"'most efficient tactic available' before:2007-12-31"
replace the apostrophes with a double quote. Ignore the " in the text above.
I haven't found a way to search "m.e.t.a." on Google because Google ignores all punctuation regardless of using "exact match" feature.
Earliest mention of meta = effective tactic available is from 2007.
"Although some people think that switching
sides is too much trouble to bother with, it is
actually the most effective tactic available to
control a canoe."
Date: 6/19/07
www.wenonah.com/pdf/wc_owners_manual.pdf
"Currently the M.E.T.A. (Most Effective Tactic Available) is to craft/buy the highest value cards within your colors and their archetypes (universally mythics and rares) regardless of your personal playstyle or preference."
www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-modern-legal-Planeswalker-in-Magic-The-Gathering-MTG
meta just means “as something exists outside of its existence”. Every game of chess starts equal, but because of a chess game 30 years ago which exists outside of the actual chess game i am playing, my game is changed.
The worlds meta has changed. Even though every digital variable remains the same there is a difference in humans therefore the meta has shifted.
But there's not a META for chess. There are strategic openings used and certain tactics, but they aren't the META. There is however, a META for tic-tac-toe.
I'm not sure I like the chess explanation. Chess analogy would make more sense that there are multiple openings that players use. There's no one correct way to play chess.
m.ua-cam.com/video/yO_JJexKFCY/v-deo.html
Stockfish A.I. with 5 openings.
I agree that meta is just what's currently the best strategy/trying to predict what the opponents strategies are and countering them
The definition of meta you stated is correct but your chess comparison is awful. My game being altered because of a game that was played 30 years ago isn't a meta, it's literally just learning a strategy that you could've figured out even without that game, akin to learning how to dribble the ball in football or pull off a combo in a fighting game. Chess is a zero sum game with a theoretically perfect set of moves, the only meta it can have is on the psychological (or programming, for engines?) level, for example if you know your opponent is worse at certain openings and so you opt into them even if they're objectively not as good. League on the other hand doesn't have a theoretically perfect set of champion picks in draft, and even if it did it would change with every patch, thus there _is_ a more clearly defined meta, both on the psychological level which is what you mentioned and what chess also has and on the game's level which is what LS talks about, and is what ought to be focused on. (Hey, it's almost like "meta" isn't a one-dimension concept, huh?)
There's no one correct way to play league.@@ACE112ACE112
i love that he is playing classic hardcore. It will fit him.
Did LS say nonces ? 🤣🤣
As a Brit I also thought wtf 😂😂
LS is exactly wrong about what the word means. It has never been an acronym for "Most Efficient Tactic Available." Meta is a prefix that means with/after/beyond. Like a meta-analysis is basically an analysis of other analyses. In gaming, meta is short for "meta-game." The term "meta-game" refers to how play is influenced by prior matches, or the impact of matches on future matches. It came into popular consciousness from Magic: the Gathering and refers to the fact that when you are building a deck, you are not only building based on what is powerful at the time, but you are also building based on what you expect others to be building, taking into account what's popular and what you expect them to expect, etc. It's many layers deep. Taken as a whole the word "meta" actually does just refer to the *environment* that you're playing in, in terms of the impact of past games on the game you're about to play. The meta can change all the time even if the rules of the game don't change. Social conformity, popularity, etc. Yes, that's all encompassed in the term "meta." It's actually surprising that LS is so opinionated about a fact that he's just wrong about. Definitions aside, I don't really disagree with the point he's making.
Meta isn't an acronym it's short for metagaming, meta- being the Greek prefix giving meaning along the lines of 'beyond'
He knows this, he's just describing meta in a different way to break you from your bias of the word. If you associate meta with some meaning and always have, it's really hard to argue about it. So if you start to abstract it, it can help. It's a meta-argument.
Meta means beyond, the game beyond the game, the approach to winning and studying outside of the game. Most effective tactics available is just an acronym to simplify it for dumbos.
LS on his villain ark
"most efficient tactic available" is a backronym, "meta" stems game theory research in the 50s & 70s, and was more recently popularized by Richard Garfield's work with Magic the Gathering. The metagame - the game about the game - for Worlds has shifted because, despite the patch not changing, the conventional wisdom about the patch has shifted.
Got a source for this? "meta" stems game theory research in the 50s & 70s,
Truly a BatmanLS moment
It's always tough cause there are two competing meanings of the term "meta". Most Efficient Tactics Available is an acronym based off the original word, which is the "metagame" or the game within a game. The reason double AD botlanes are 'meta' is because lane prio is so valuable and AD items are busted. It doesn't mean it's the MOST EFFICIENT way to play. But it counters the way people thought was best.
Also, unless League gets to have a single patch for a few years, it's very unlikely there will ever be one best way to play. Only competing narratives.
Worlds ending just in time for another MENTAL HEALTH break.
Ls understands the struggle
What LS is missing is that he is entering LOLCOW territory and needs to realize that you do not have to take the bait if it is presented to you. Why take to heart insincere comments and people?
Haven’t touched league in 2 years, randomly got this recommended.
Glad to see LS is still doing his schizo rents 😂 truly amazing how nothing has changed.
not schizo rants anymore. they have now become autistic rants (he was diagnosed a couple months ago). just so you know (but I assume you are NOT surprised as was no one)
Because of takes like this I genuinely think it’s people like LS that should be elected into The Hall of Legends. When you have someone that is this passionate and willing to explain and entertain new and cool ideas that push the game forward, that is someone that leaves a positive impact on League and defines it and the community. While Faker js the performer and on stage making plays, we as the League community should credit LS with the driving force of how some pro players and even regular players of League play and think about this game rather than solely focusing on the FEEL of things or solely focusing on specific nitpicked stats and not the whole picture.
I know you’re taking a break from making content, but you are what should be the face and driving force of league especially for the west.
just from the beginning on what ls was saying that they're like flat earthers. whoever was on the call with him doesn't realize that you can't speak logic to people like that. they are not receptive to logic if they have a flat earther mindset. there is not point in trying to explain something to someone who can't even begin to process it and won't try because they think they're right. trying to change someone's mind is so much harder than explaining a concept to someone who is willing to learn
This is the essence of why my interest in League has declined rapidly. Noone actually tries to play or min-max like people do in other esports or games. Just handshake "whatever is popular/being played in LCK/LPL" and then hands diff whoever has better mental that day. Fucking boring.
To be honest I remember you misusing the word "meta" too
Hear out, riot should make a few rotating maps to reallt change/diversify the meta! Aye!
You can show people legit EVERYTHING about a topic. But they would not trust it if it "feels weird" to them.
NO SHIT YOU FEEL WEIRD IT'S CALLED THINKING, TRYING SOMETHING FOR TIME, GETTING OUT OF THE COMFORT ZONE. IT'S SUPPOSED TO FEEL DIFFERENT.
What he says is inherently truth, but people just don't try to get answers to what is coming from the other people aside when worlds is happening, if we had a full length championship on the same patch this things would happen every time, because x is good against y which is good against z that is good against x, and then it becomes an execution inide the game thing, T1 fisted JDG because they executed better their idea of play, I don't think the best thing to win games is to respond to your opponent, but it is where you can get the most advantage
A game analyst should be more open-minded and hands on when it comes to what the game provides and what is available to be played and how it should be implemented. That's what I got out of this video and I agree. That can be applied to life when you're passionate about something you love and enjoy. Get your hands dirty and find out what needs to be done.
I was todays years old when I learned META was an acronym and what it stood for 😅
idk if your beiing serious but Its not an acronym.
"most efficient tactic available" is a backronym, "meta" stems from game theory research from like the 70s, and gained modern popularity through Richard Garfield's work with Magic the Gathering in the 90s.
the meaning of LS is wrong lol, thats the funny thing. Meta is the most used tactic, not the most efficient tactic available
@@robenrivenWdym he is wrong?Meta can mean both depending on the context it is used in. In league it clearly means "most efficient tactic available."
Idk how competitive works, but in soloq getting really granular about countering the exact features of an enemy champion or comp will never beat our raw damage on a very fast bruiser or untargetable or unhittable assassin. Garen, Kayn, Kaisa, Zed, Evelyn, these champs will always dominate the game until they change the structure of the game itself.
I think they need to look at the way combat works, death timers and respawns, and drag/baron/shelly and rebuild it. Fights are kinda braindead this far into the game. They are over too quickly and in the statistical sense, actual randomness like fast poke (in a game where objectives now have to be contested, you can't just let the poke comp get all of them) can determine too much.
10-minute rant predicated on a false premise. Classic LS
What is the context to this take?
Some ORG get this man a team with players that are open to his strats!!
C9 did and then they fired him
@@petergriffin9554 Specifically, they did, had success and was gradually changing the way the game was being played, then they fired him because "systems".
Unfortunately, LS is a visionary far ahead of his time, and if he continues bashing his head against the wall he will just end up as another Ignaz Semmelweis, who first proposed the simple act of handwashing would reduce the rate of deaths and complications but was mocked, derided and disparaged to the point he was admitted to a mental asylum and died there. It took 2 additional decades for Pasteur to come around with his germ theory (leading to the well-known process of pasteurization) for the former to be vindicated.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg, plenty of scientists, visionaries etc. have had the same treatment or worse, it's all based on luck of the draw.
Still crazy to me that C9 got rid of him, even tho he showed that his thinkings and teachings can work IF they work with him.
And then they ditch him (even tho it has never been confirmed), because he was changing the stuff too much, that they already built (which was flawed as hell)
@@cat-vv9xb they fired him for not sticking to the practice schedule the LCS teams had agreed on, lol. Not because he was "changing the systems" or whatever fucking fantasy y'all are creating.
The gaming community took the term meta from philosophy, but the true "definition" of meta is: of itself.
I dont think not too many people in esports are going to think differently like you. It seems like people are too tunnel vision about playing in a patch like rotations as a team than actually thinking of prep like team comp and archtypes.
Have genuinely wished to have a long chat on stream with ls and try to fill in the holes. The intention has always been good and the delivery continues to get better over time. That process could be expedited by some examples of good spokesmen or a teacher that is well versed. I know that the environment of pro-players is good at getting a grasp for something or effectively just an intuition, but the skills for overlapping that with conveying it are present in very few.
Such as properly forming a thought, presenting it in a manner available to as many as possible in the sense of understanding and the supporting framework for how to land those points and to adapt them on the fly if need be without dropping the strength of the argument.
Ls should debate someone on the points made in this video.
Human priest, Omegalul
LS JUST CASUALLY SPITTING SOMETHING ONLY EINSTEIN WOULD COMPREHEND . THIS MAN IS OUT OF THIS WORLD . The reason He falling off cause We human can no longer understand him
It’s quite easy to understand, he says that language is important, like for example, people using the word meta, when it means, most effective tactic available, when it shouldn’t really change at all, with these micropatches.
He is also just explaining, that pros don’t think about, what moves can get you an actual advantage in draft or game.
This is just referring to, flex picks, that can go in multiple roles and or teamcomp themes, counter picks, freezing in midgame, use of f keys, etc.
He is saying people do not try everything they can, to counter what the enemy is doing, nor do they try to find out, what is really the most optimal strat.
@@tomwanders6022 meta does not mean "most efficient tactic available". Meta is not an acronym.
the strategies players use can change regardless of whether the rulesets of the game stay the same. Certain players are better with certain champions. Some people might come up with new champions/strategies to shift the meta.
Super Smash bros melee has had like 1 official patch and a universal controller fix and the tier list of what is good has changed over the years. People can look at a game that has had the same version bar new input methods and come to different conclusions on what is the best strategy. Players can get better at the game and come to new conclusions on what is considered to be good or bad.
I'll try to find some some sources of Leffen talking about Yoshi being S-tier and the historical tier lists on the wiki later. Need to sleep.
@@ACE112ACE112 Bullshit. Words evolve. Meta in gaming and especially in league means "most efficent tactic available" so LS is 100% right.
So what youre saying is the coaching meta changed ... 😮
One thing I've realized more and more is that the LoL community struggles to properly define power. I get it, it's very hard, but people settle for very flawed definitions like statistics, popular opinions and "feelings".
Sam Reven is based
1:50 What ever happened to turning the other cheek? I don't think you get anywhere by perpetuating a cycle of disrespect.
Petition for LS to become NEXT AMERICA PRESIDENT. His speech conversational and vocab is through the roof
I wonder how many of these rage moments would change if LS just knew that people mean metagame and not some acronym mtg players made up way later
Chad comment
True, a lot of people do confuse metagame for the most effective tactic available, but that's on them.
Yeah, but the word "meta" is moot here. The entire substance of LS' point isn't dependent on the word "meta" and its "true definition". Its just what provoked the discussion.
@@egonomics352 Oh the word provoked the discussion? I wonder how many discussion would change if LS knew that people mean metagame since that’s what incited it.
TL;DR what the OP said
@@imsorrythankyouplease7613 sure, but saying "oh LS isn't using the word meta right so what he's saying is wrong" Is unironically a part of what he's talking about
League is a normal people game, only nerd games get solved and evolved
Most Effective Tactic Available? Isn't Meta derived from Metagame, as in "what lies beyond the game"?
It's both, it is not originally Most Effective Tactic Available , but it evolved into also meaning that with mordern gaming. I think it is called a Backronym
Its t1s fault
10 minutes of yapping that can be summarized to simply - "herd mentality, basic human psychology"
Wait, does LS actually think meta is an acronym? Meta just means referring to itself or conventions of the genre, so saying the Meta game is changing when the draft strategies of teams is changing is completely correct.
Im agreeing with ur points on this instance, but its not a reason to be immature and just get personal if someone is on the other side of the argument, even if they are blind and factually wrong. Its like a doctor getting mad over an argument with some random npc from a village with no knowledge about the subject, its kinda baffling.
Proving intelectually superiorety does nothing to push the argument further, even if the other party is clueless and not engaging. I wouldnt care about this at all, but doing on stream is just cringe.
Yeah, I get its frustrating but you can just ignore disrespectful people, if you act the same way you'll push away the people who are actually in good faith because not everyone has the time/opportunity to look into the full story.
If after the doctor spent x number of years explaining why that person from the village was wrong and said person refused to listen, I think it's reasonable that the doctor gets mad about it.
I've never heard of meta meaning "most effective tactic available". It sounds like a backtronym to me. The standard definition of meta makes perfect sense and is how almost everyone actually uses it. Like a meta analysis is "examination of data from a number of independent studies of the same subject, in order to determine overall trends." The high level trends of drafting and positioning in lane etc is the meta. It does change within a single patch, and that's how everybody else uses it. The word itself is basically unusable if it describes some perfect strategy no humans can attain! Even the acronym you think is the real definition is subjective - "available" could mean best possible, or best known so far.
it sounds like a backronym because it is one
Seems LS premise is starting from an incorrect assumption. Meta isn’t an acronym, it doesn’t stand for “most efficient tactic available” that’s just a backronym by some nerd that somehow lingered.
It’s just short for metagame which literally means the most popular strategies in a game.
@powerfamiliar Agree that his definition of meta is incorrect. But I feel like LS takes are based on another premise that the meta should always be exploited/countered and finally evolved into the “most efficient tactic available”, assuming no change to game balance during the process.
This is just me trying to make sense of LS take, based on personal TCGs knowledge. Might just be on copium.
The substance of LS' point could be made and comprehended without ever mentioning the term "meta" and trying to define it though. Its not dependent on it. Not really a premise. Its just what provoked the discussion.
Yes, meta stands for metagame and LS is wrong on the acronym, but metagame doesn't mean the most popular strategy, it means a strategy understood to be the best for reasons outside the game itself. Picking a champion because you can flex it is a meta choice because it's entirely predicated on your opponent actually caring about counterpicking you, regardless of how popular that champion is, whereas picking the most popular champion in the role because you think it's the strongest even if it loses 100% to a specific counterpick is a choice that entirely disregards the metagame.
@@mrmcawesome9746 It can mean other things, but imo “the popular strategies” is the most common usage (outside of RPGs). From wiki “In competitive games, the metagame can refer to the most popular strategy, often called a game's meta, or preparation for a match in general.” If I ask a card game player or a fighting game player “what’s the meta for the upcoming tournament” I believe most would answer me telling me which decks/characters I’m most likely to face. Or the common strategies “early game rush, ramp, etc”.
@@thiennguyenngoc9911 As a TCG player if we’re both preparing for the tournament and I ask you “what do you think the meta will be.” What would your answer be?
My take on LS comment is actually the opposite. He says the meta never changes. That the most powerful champions were always meta (his definition) and just were not being picked. That the meta at worlds didn’t shift.
if ls was a headcoach and ppl would actually listen it would be guranteed that he could lead a team to winning worlds.
Let's don't overreact dude
@@itsgonnabeokay9341 it's not an overreaction to this clip specifically. It is simply my observation
Autism
I gotta disagree with ya here LS, meta- is a prefix that means "next to" or "beyond" (ie. metaphysics, metagaming), so the term meta is referencing the game "beyond" the game that is happening in picks and bans. Therefore the "meta" can change as the chess game of picks and bans changes in terms of *this* counters *that which was considered most effective*, and then *this* counters *the counter*. This is to say that the term "meta" reference specifically what we are seeing take place in the thought process of the players as acted out on the stage. To your credit though, it does also reference what *isn't* happening but is still possible within the confines of the game. What I'm really saying is that I just hate that stupid acronym and refuse to believe it is the meaning of the word.
(Credentials: MfA in English, Minor in Philosophy, Silver IV in League)
Meta is different in gaming look it up.
You cannot fight against the evolution of language. The meaning of the word has changed already. It's a meaningless battle.
you can tell ls is talking to someone who plays wow, cause they sound like a reddit mod and playing devils advocate as much as possible
lol
When people say meta aren't they usually referring to what teams think is the strongest available tactic? Like isn't the strongest available tactic subjective because deciding what the strongest is subjective?
It seems strange to me that he's using it like there's some objective truth to what is the strongest on each given patch.
people pretty much always use meta to refer to what's popular. Because it's popular, it wins more than it loses, and because of that, people think it's strong.
That has nothing to do with if the picks are actually good or not, but only to their success, regardless of whether countermeasures or actual strategy against those picks is considered.
@@cascadingdreams8743then it should be called results based analysis not meta ?
@@user-fd6lw5xg1p Probably, yeah. But since that phrase has a negative connotation no one would ever actually call it that.
@@cascadingdreams8743not exactly. meta = best tactic, generallly what the pros are doing. there's not really an objectively best strategy unless you can solve the game. solve game = 100% win rate with a certain set of moves.
it couls be that x strategy wins more than others so that 1 gets picked up by pros. i dint think a strategy is necessarily bad even when thete might exist a better strategy. if my opponents dont know how to counter my strategy, it's good enough and should be easy to execute
@@ACE112ACE112 You don't need to entirely solve the game to know that one choice is objectively better than another. Chess hasn't been solved, yet even a brand new player knows that there are objectively better and objectively worse moves, same thing with league. Just because a strategy is winning in pro play doesn't mean it's objectively better than other strategies. It _could_ mean that, or it could mean lots of other things.
Caedrel videos on DRAFTING is way better than what LS is saying.
Nope. Ls beat him in the 5 games draft
@@user-bt2qy6yx4i true bro game 5 draft was crazy from both t1 and jdg lmao
@@user-bt2qy6yx4i got a link? i wanna watch
what is he yapping about?
how can LS have such a big audience when he'll just run his mouth for 10 minutes straight to say nothing of substance and claim 37 wrong things along the way?? actual wtf
Huh?
Cut your balls off, or watch this entire video?
I understand LS' frustration but I think this is just autism brain taking over, the 'available' part of META has never in my experience been used literally, it always eluded to top players' perception of available strategies, therefore the rest of the word 'Most Effective Tactic' refers to deciding what is the most effective from that pool, if there's a strategy that isn't widely understood or is just unknown it is not available to those who decide what the META is. There are several parallels to this in games that have a state of no changes like we've seen at worlds, the first of which being Melee in which the game has literally never been changed and we've seen massive changes in how people view top characters and strategies, or another parallel in Yugioh formats like GOAT and Edison where we've seen a massive change in deckbuilding sensibilities and the decks themselves as a whole despite no new cards being introduced, these are both examples of META changes based on available knowledge as the term has always been used.