Transgressions of Four Mormon Church Leaders | Gary James Bergera | Ep. 1703
Вставка
- Опубліковано 29 лип 2024
- Nearly since its founding, leaders of the LDS Church have excommunicated members for wrongdoing. In earlier times, such punishments might have lasted only weeks. Over the course of succeeding decades, this practice became more severe, constituting a wrenching removal from the community. Gaining readmittance often required intense penance and evidence of significant change stretching over a prolonged period of time. Sometimes this process even involved the leaders' colleagues. Justice and Mercy offers in-depth examinations of several high-profile case studies in church discipline, using journals and other sources close to the participants to provide candid detail.
The book can be purchased here:
www.benchmarkbooks.com/pages/...
Chapters:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:20:00 Reasons for the book
00:21:00 Church disciplining of church leaders
00:23:30 How the book came about
00:24:00 Albert Carrington
00:31:00 Not adultery if seed "doesn’t mix"
00:35:00 Polygamy & blurred lines
00:38:00 Carrington excommunicated to avoid PR scandal
00:41:00 Restoration of blessings
00:45:00 Thomas Taylor, molesting bishop
00:58:00 Richard Lyman
01:00:00 Anna Jacobson, excommunication
01:05:00 Relationship between Lyman and Jacobsen
01:06:00 Lack of discernment in Q15
01:07:00 Breaking down the door and busting Lyman w/ police force
01:10:00 Lyman and polygamy
01:14:00 Lyman excommunicated, brethren terrified of fundamentalists
01:23:00 Amy Lyman aftermath
01:26:00 Excommunication of Anna Jacobsen
01:29:00 Reflections on the first three offenders
01:32:00 Anna Jacobsen tragedy
01:34:00 Joseph F. Smith, the gay church patriarch
01:37:00 Reports of gay relationship between Joseph F. Smith and other male church member
01:40:00 Released for “unspecified condition”, exiled to Idaho
01:42:00 Blood lineage of church patriarchs, position retired.
01:45:00 Joseph F. Smith in Hawaii, inquiries. Told to not give callings. Eventually served in high counsel. No punishments.
01:49:00 The rest of the book
01:56:00 Gary’s books (e.g., Conflict in the quorum)
01:58:15 Benchmark Books, rare books
www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
_________________________
ABOUT US:
Mormon Stories Podcast is the longest-running and most successful podcast in Mormonism - hosted by Dr. John Dehlin. At Mormon Stories we explore, celebrate, and challenge Mormon culture through in-depth stories told by members and former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We also occasionally interview scholars, authors, LDS apologists, and other professionals. Our overall mission is to: 1) Facilitate informed consent amongst LDS Church members, investigators, and non-members regarding Mormon history, doctrine, and theology, 2) Support Mormons (and members of other high-demand religions) who are experiencing a religious faith crisis, and 3) Promote healing, growth and community for those who choose to leave the LDS Church or other high demand religions.
Mormon Stories Podcast is a product of the Open Stories Foundation - a 501c3 non-profit dedicated to supporting Mormons in religious transition.
Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today:
One-time or recurring donations: donorbox.org/mormon-stories?d...
Patreon: / mormonstories
Amazon Smile: Be sure to select “Mormon Stories”
website: smile.amazon.com
app: amz.run/5r2M
Our Platforms:
Mormon Stories Blog: www.mormonstories.org/episodes
Patreon: / mormonstories
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/4sDzk7d...
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
Instagram: / mormstories
TikTok: / mormonstoriespodcast
Discord: / discord
Contact us:
MormonStories@gmail.com
PO Box 171085, Salt Lake City, UT 84117
#MormonStories #Mormon #lds
I see betrayal by denying their affairs. As a woman, I see betrayal in the affairs. I got a divorce in 1975 because my husband had been having affairs. I wanted a man that I could trust and lay my soul next to. I never found that in my 82 years so I never got married again.
I was born and raised Mormon. Got sent home early from my mission and lived my most of my life feeling like I was never good enough. I don't know all the trauma I have dealt with, but these videos have been tough to watch because it is so personal to me.That said, they are also helping me get through the emotional blocker I have had my whole life when it comes to the Church. 31 now and up until yesterday I would still claim to be mormon, even though I haven't been super active in 8-9 years.... I felt strength from these videos to finally admit its not true. It sucks feeling like most of your life was a lived on a lie. Thank you for what you do. I'd be honered to be on your show. My parents moved to Missouri for the 2nd coming.
John, you had me at "Transgressions of Church Leaders". You magnificent bastard, you!
🤣🤣🤣
Book purchased!
😂
John, I'm a non-mormon but I find your interviews fascinating! You always have done your homework and know exactly what questions to ask...
It was randomly interesting that all four excommunicable transgressions were sexual, not embezzlement or other such criminal offenses.
Please consider liking and subscribing. John puts a lot of time so much research and time into these Productions. So much of his research needs to be shared with members of the church so they can have informed consent
Is it just me? This cult is so crazy!
No it is not just you, Cindi. This cult is so effing bat shit crazy.
@@China-Clay Others have noticed
It's not just you.
OUTDATED...!!!
I will never-ever forget being 16 years old, moving into a new ward and having the bishop who I had just met five minutes ago threaten to excommunicate me on our meet and greet. I know now my former bishop was progressive. I immediately felt the power shift. I never felt loved and only went back to church after moving again. Excommunication is barbaric. I felt it, which is different from hearing about it
@John Grigg Because bishops are not men of God
I love Mormon Stories.
Try Catholic stories and you will really love it.
The language of how the wife salvation is based on the husband preisthood the history of it just wow
I like it when guests ask John Dehlin questions. :)
This panel really needed a female perspective, bonus for a female historian who could speak to the impacts of the women in these situations
I can’t disagree.
Fascinating episode, please come back!!
Great to see Brian! I instantly recognized his voice. Mormon History podcast is one of my favorites! 🤩
Love that Signature Books publishing is located where my Great-Great grandparents settled. That parking lot used to host community events with music and dancing
My ex was excommunicated three times that I know about. No one told me about the first two while I was dating him. Of course the third time was when I found out about his double life after 8 years of marriage. I think he was excommunicated again after our divorce and married to another lds woman.
Fascinating!!! More of this please!!
They should be in prison and be processed through the courts system not the church system this is abhorrent
Great discussion!
Good recap and visit to stories Gary, Bryan, John
Great episode guys!
The higher the level in anything, the more the narcissists try to get away with murder. Often times they don’t get caught
Great podcast!
U work so hard, Yr so fair, respectful & sincere, I could listen 2u All day! ThankU So much John! Sending loads of love n support from the UK! 💖💖🌸🌸
Very interesting!
FWIW, the phrase "folly in Israel" is a phrase used in the King James Version of the Old Testament that is associated with serious or disgraceful behavior, including sexual sin. See Gen 34:7, Deut 22:21, Josh 7:15, and Judg 20:6.
I know a pedophile who went to prison for 6 years and didn't get excommunicated. Within the last year i heard that they were thinking about it. Hes been out of prison now for about 6 or 7 years.
James Hamula ??? (pronounced Ham-you-la) was our Stake President. At age 32. Julie and I also served a 2 year mission with his Mother-in-law. She said James was perhaps the finest man she'd even known. We found him to be the same way. He is an incredible man and was an incredible stake president. He was also a scriptorian. Church officials have said he was excommunicated but it wasn't for apostasy. ??? When do they ever say, so-and-so was excommunicated but it wasn't for bank robbery. Excommunicated but it wasn't for embezzlement. They don't. Elder Hamula was put in charge of the Church history department. He was excommunicated in 2017, shortly after he was assigned that duty, and shortly after the GTE's came out. Hamula has way too much integrity to find out what really happened, and willingly look the other way and just sign off on it. He's not for sale. He would have objected. His objection would have gotten him in trouble. His continued refusal to go along with it, would have gotten him excommunicated. Notice, the only elder in half a century to be excommunicated, has never asked to be reinstated. If he had tried, or had gotten reinstated, it would be all over the news. James Hamula is a man of honor, and his honor is not for sale. To say he wasn't excommunicated for apostasy, is to say that he was. Knowing him as we do, we think that like the rest of us, he found out and couldn't go along with it. Therefore, it was, hasta la by-by Elder Hamula.
My understanding is different. He was the head of correlation. That’s different than history. And I’ve been told by multiple sources that it was a marital transgression.
Geez, this whole situation with the police breaking down the door and catching Lyman in the act.....wow.....was this even legal at the time to enter his residence?
With Lyman, the State at that time practiced a near perfect Theocracy. The church is the police. That justice system was biasly rigged, bent toward the power of the church, the jury would be bias, and there are no warrants/ very limited rights as per vs US judicial processes. The church also owned many supporters within the police to use them as their own internal processes.
You must be new to American cops lol…
Speaking of gray behavior- totally black to us now- was the foot washing ceremony that William Clayton had unwed women do to him while a missionary before engaging in sex, although his journal is heavily redacted making it unclear. The ceremony was like an ad hoc temporary marriage.
Where can I find a copy of this journal? I'd love to read it.
One of the characteristics of cults is their emphasis on sex.
So this guy Carrington apparently had not recieved the 2nd anointing ... because that would have given him a pass for his "little follly in israel", right?
The Lyman story is all around 😢😢😢😭!!
Day 1 of asking for yall to interview Owen Morgan aka Telltale (ex jw)
Commenting for the algorithm!
My big claim to fame was hanging out with Maxine at SEP and a shout out in from Gary in his history of BYU. 🙄
@JohnDehlin: John, these 2 guests are among your BEST (and you have had some VERY GOOD guests!).
If you have Gary back at a later date, there are a couple of loose ends from this visit I'd like further clarification on.
He stated that Heber J. Grant did not want to call Eldred Gee Smith as Patriarch. Why was that? It sounds as though he had something against Eldred. Was it his age? I would find that hypocritical, since HJG was called to the Twelve at age 26. Then, he said HJG wanted to call his SIL as Patriarch. I suspect that many of the Brethren blocked that idea, for I doubt his SIL was of the "chosen" lineage. These are two ideas that were mentioned, only. I want "meat on them bones." I want to hear the details! I am deeply interested.
Has it ever been considered that those who were excommunicated and those who are not may or may not have received the second anointing and that this may have played into such action.
where i can find transcriptions of your podcasts? listening is always very hard for me, can i find this in spanish? UA-cam doesnt give me the option to translate in spanish , thanks
I don’t know about Spanish translation, but click where it says “more” - and then scroll down and you’ll be able to see where you can choose to see the transcript. Hope this helps.
Also, you can slow down or speed up the rate of speech by clicking on the wheel (sorta looks like this🛞). Hope this helps.
@@Hklbrries thank you is just the are a lot of Words that i dont know it would take days to finish this episode hehe but i Will try to find the important parts
I’m not able to find the book, Justice and Mercy on Amazon or Signature sites. Any ideas?
www.benchmarkbooks.com/advSearchResults.php?action=search&orderBy=relevance&category_id=0&keywordsField=bergera+justice
Thanks 🙏
@@patricianoel7782 Thanks from me too-I couldn’t find it either!
Hi, just a note. It has come to my attention that many of the people who listen in have no connection to the Morgan church. It would be nice if you could explain what a persons title mean. Like Apostle, what does that title involve? Is it a ceremonial title or does it carry some authority?
💛
Don't you think the over emphasis on sexuality causes too much focus by everyone.
What’s the one thing that comes to mind? It’s MEN. Not just LDS but everywhere.
It so you can't come home for your own parents funeral or closest funeral as they are afraid you won't go back no it is not it's more harmful to not let them come home just for the numbers just for the numbers good grief numbers is
@@deanabraden9871 so say you but I've heard many other accounts
@@deanabraden9871 this is not worth every play because you know it's not true
23:00
That is how they handle it at the Ward level as well. If the person lies and says they did not do it that is the end of it. They then just leave it up to God. They do not investigate things.
Time to put women in more positions of power.
Very interested in the book, adding it to my reading list. I’m gathering a better picture now of the church runnings.
Listening to this brings so many things back to my mind. When in YSA a peer was disciplined after being bedded by a visiting seventy. My husband met with an apostle mentioned on this episode who kept patting his bottom during a prayer. Husb wants to believe it was accidental as he’s quite a tall guy. My bishop that was practicing polygamy on the quiet and my stake pres who was caught banging a temple worker (not his wife) in the temple.. It’s interesting to me that this is seemingly common within leaders of the LDS and other religions.
@56:20 There's more to it than that. The dynamics that was being lived in the community, the dynamics of practices imposed on the system of belief, the political management on beliefs, and tradition of practices changes the situation quite a bit. It would be too much to put in a post and I don't feel like getting a zealot stalker during this holiday season. They make poor company to entertain and besides its better for them to be with their families rather than freeze their butt off in the cold.
The individual walking away from his polygamist marriage was more than likely let off the hook because that is how the trust believed, belief in practice-trust was structured, and the domain of leadership of jurisdiction was handled. The weird practice to punish and then to reunite through an apostle was a 'ploy' tactic to appease the transgressions created by expectation of the inner church dynamics still practicing polygamy. The ones that were practicing either had to have a great number of affiliations to the inner church or they were put on a long waiting que for decision (longer story to that and that evolution). Besides it being a ploy it was also to create an oath of trust by a representing responsible party. My guess is the man flaked out, after seeing how heavy his situation got and he just wanted something easier under his domain to seize control. After being confronted with a structure of practice, it was too much out of his own element to concede.
As to law enforcement... That is a hot mess. Church uses law enforcement to bend in their own ways... their authority on 'right', to menace the arm of enforcement to build a force to 'straighten their own mess out of control' on authority in order to use for their own purposes than what is legally practiced/ legally represented. There are issues with the Church swaying law enforcement resources to promotion to sway their own wedge of law to be served or the Church can buy off enforcers that are swayed to their cause through favors or notoriety to improve their own personal life. That story with Lyman isn't the first time that law enforcement has been used/abused to serve the arm of 'law' in the Church. The Church needs to stay out of law entirely.
The church will use law enforcement to police the extremity of their internal agenda/ get rid of political 'enemies' and to build a tighter more loyal following while still in the same practice to build who is saved and what is allowable, when really they are consolidating their own personal power and campaign for power, it's that duplicitous and insane. It makes an easy issue on power to turn a small event into a new turn in practice/and power for another 20-30 yrs to build in extreme devotion + extreme cruelty to uphold the practice + an extreme retentive counter public following to keep the practice controllable and away from public eyes/ the bias held in general membership, and then to sit back and sip on their own lemonade having an easier adjustment/power to rule than their last predecessors. If coercion/manipulation is significant enough greatly, one can just stand around, soak up the glory, and let the internal processes work themselves out then get back into 'business' favoring whatever is left over to build a new 'right'.
What makes the church/ or a church to go above the law and to exercise their own proceedings over the law? (1) Their own commitment and dependence in Theocracy (2) The belief and addiction to own 'right' (3) Sucking off of the power to represent the extreme elevations of right for their own personal purposes not based in any practicing legal law.
**As per the moral police turning in members to be admonished or eventually be excommunicated, this societal influence is also useful to the leadership's way and command on power. If the leadership gets tired of regulating practice and esteeming their own height in power, I suppose they got wise to nudge the other direction to build a bit of mock-morality to parody on righteousness and have its own membership destroy itself to remake a 'new world'.
(Or perhaps they wanted create a division to hold onto their own self right and create a stance of greater height to be favored by their congregation as greater. The creation of elitism vs general membership needing to be more dependent on their leader/ their leaders image... which would otherwise be extremely vain and conceited in selfishness)
This repeated behavior in church/ church culture makes me grievously ill. You have leaders who don't care about their own responsibility on leadership, whom they lead, and the lives they affect through their policies etc. They just want a tragedy so they can profit off of it , to feel better about themselves to save their own face, or to create a division of reality and power to wedge their own white knight after they just destroyed anyone about to 'wake up' or whomever begins to move more independent and away from the leaders. You see this same pattern in polygamy, WWII Red herring communist witch trials, social program reformation disgraces, Republican voting when the church gets involved, Prop 8, When the church turned Abstinence (alcohol) into full practice, new narratives, the ejection of political dividers to accountability, etc
The gross thing is the moral police may do it for reasons of morality, but they are given power to hate and be put in the path of right only to be used for the church to not do the dirty work themselves and still believe they do it for a duty of greater right or more duty. Most moral police don't realize how extensively they are used until the table is turned and they are in a similar circumstance a few decades down the road for a different matter, or they give up in understanding and become a weak willed sycophant to the wills of power to the leadership... always believing internally themselves that they must be tested and proved in their righteousness or all is lost.
The issue with vigilante Morality Police as per church member can only see morality in their own paradigm on construct, and perception of tender, and bound of knowledge they put themselves into to assume they know all. They make a great guard dog, but they are incapable of noticing their own hubris to their own way of belief towards applying a morality. They often live in a hypocrisy of their own accord without realizing their own design otherwise they divorce their own mind until they lose the capability to understand morality themselves or they lose themselves entirely to conceptualize fairly what they represent. The Moral police in the church often favors their own benefits, than to see the issue to its greater whole or how an influence affects matters and then act accordingly addressing those matters fairly.
It gets so nutty and ridiculous to stay in such a system. The moral police has their own way to feel pride and accomplished in their own side, meanwhile...
The power in leadership... whoever wins, has the ability to rollover the ship, throw out everyone in the ship, roll the ship back over and re-roll the leadership to their influence, strategy to wedge their own power over the liberty of the moral police, fantasy to hubris, and success.
The moral police believes they have made a victory for the church, but they just allowed the church to put a squeeze on where their requirements of life/lifestyle are tender and they believe the leadership is all the more holier for it.
I am a non Mormon and wondering what the goal of this show actually is? Are you a Mormon after hearing all of this or how do you balance your thinking and belief system? I find this all interesting and I'm curious.
This should explain it!
ua-cam.com/video/mLFx9i9yzM0/v-deo.html
It is difficult having your family drama broadcast. Richard’s father and grandfather might have set a bit of a presidence. Don’t think it’s completely fair not to factor that in. Cheers.
J rueben clark i mean !!
I’ll be honest, the fact that the Lyman’s marital s*xual situation (basically saying the wife wouldn’t have s*x with him) creating feelings of understanding and sympathy towards him, rubbed me the wrong way.
The church really needs to reconsider its policy of excommunication. It's totally outdated..!! Offenders need to be lovingly counselled and FORGIVEN.. !!! BTW Why was Joseph Smith not excommunicated???? The law equally applies to everyone...!!
But really what they need to do is de emphasize the seriousness of certain sins IE over the pulpit etc.
The second annointing. The law DOESN'T apply to everyone.
It's good to be king.....
Oooh,when are we doing Catholics?
They aren't. This is about the LDS church. But there is plenty on catholic popes especially during the dark ages
Boy that tells you a lot about church politics doesn't it and it's not what you know it's who you know and that women are second-class citizens for sure in this church
It seems hypocritical when polygamy and affairs are the same?
No thinking, reasonable person (LDS church member or otherwise) would look at any of these four cases and give these men a pass. Church hierarchy may have done so to one varying degree or another historically with these cases, but that doesn't make the nature of what these men did "okay" on any level. That said (here comes my active church member bias), in the nearly 200 yrs of latter-day church history, four out of over approximately two thousand plus general authorities represents 99.8% of church leaders who have NOT "transgressed" in such egregious ways. Yes, I know I'm leaving out countless bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents, etc. from the 99.8%. But given the positions of admiration that these men hold among members, the miracle is that the number is not much, much higher than 0.2%. Again, this is not to minimize the obvious damnable actions of some, but to paint this as anything but rare is a kind of salacious fodder. This podcast should be titled "Latter-day Peyton Place". Good grief... Thanks for the two hours of detail!
Teachers=missionaries.... Im sure it's not by coincidence that his 3 known victims were approx missionaries age and this is who he is most concerned about losing the privilege of their visits.... Like u said these people don't lose their urges or learn how to control them they just get better about covering their tracks
Headline is designed for maximum interest and viewing by haters. Hope you think the results are worth the cost.
What cost?
You are aware of the sexual abuse problem in the LDS church, aren't you?
@@zacheryeckard3051no but I am aware of it in the Catholic Church.
It’s everywhere not just one church
Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow, now there’s a pair of outstanding cultists 1:27:45
Prey to advances? You are doing nothing but speculating.
Why does this host hate the LDS church so much? He acts like this doesn’t happen in other churches and places.
You probably aren’t ready to hear the facts that John can tell you backed up by research. You are on the right path. Keep an open mind.
Does the bad behavior in other religions somehow lessen the need to shine a light on it here? That’s an odd position to hold. I saw we call bad behavior out, whatever the circumstance, instead of trying to minimize it because it might be from a part of our own community.
@@OuttaMyMind911 I personally believe that most if not all religions have corruption and greed that doesn’t surprise me. But I also think that we have a duty to logically call out our evidence of their lies. Hypocrisy is an evil sin. And corrupting some innocent people.