Harmony Battle: John Adams' “Harmonielehre” as a response to Arnold Schoenberg
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- Arnold Schoenberg changed the course of music history permanently. In John Adams' 1985 piece "Harmonielehre" he musically responds to the legacy of Schoenberg in a variety of critical ways.
4:46 A Case for Tonality
5:45 Poking fun at Schoenberg
10:28 Musical Quotes
www.danielkrenzmusic.com
This was really fun to watch and you have a great style of presentation, thanks!
I first became aware of John Adams’ work through the score to “I am Love,” a film not ultimately for the faint of heart. After having then been immersed in a classical music education for 50 years, and coming to think of Schoenberg as an acquired taste as the heralded next post-Mahler progression following Hindemith, Milhaud, Stravinsky, etc., I dug into exploring Adams’ other works
and experienced quite frankly a great
sense of relief that the future evolution of classical music accessible to the listener lay in good hands. Harmonielehre is a stunning work that can take one’s breath away.
I still haven’t seen “I am Love” although I have been meaning to.
Schoenberg certainly saw himself in a line of German composers starting with Bach and extending through himself.
Great video, it was really helpful for getting a. bit closer to this magnificent piece by Adams and trying to understand what it meant, thank you
The analysis, the historic background... everything is extraordinarily interesting, many thanks! Just came back from the 1st audition of "Harmonielehre" at the Teatro Colón, played by the Buenos Aires Philharmonic Orchestra under the outstanding, amazing young director Pablo Druker (the rest of the program featured Unsuk Chin´s "Frontispiece" and Thomas Adès´s "Concentric Paths", violin solo Alejandro Aldana). However... please dear Daniel, watch out for the pronunciation of "Harmonielehre", it should sound "harmoníiiileeere", accent on the long "i", the "e" is also long and should sound like "e" in "met" with a small dose of "i", a very German "e" !!! (best with an available German coach 😂)
Very insightful! Hearing this piece always reminds me of the time I went to Chicago to see Edo de Waart conduct it.
That whole story needs to be a separate video :)
Great discussion, thank you. Personally I love this composition. To my ear it’s the best thing Adams has done
Thank you, this was very informative on several levels.
Excellent video. I was a student of John Adams until he left the SF Conservatory, and I learned some things from your presentation.
That is awesome to hear! How was he as a teacher?
@@danielkrenz He was a fantastic teacher. He had a real gift for being able to "inhabit" a student's style and musical language, without imposing his own stylistic preferences, so that he could offer useful comments and advice to everybody. He made no secret of his lack of enthusiasm for serialism, but even so he was able to offer helpful commentary to the students who wanted to write dodecaphonic works.
@@billclarkcomposer7719 I am glad to hear that. It always seems to be the mark of a good teacher that no matter what their students style, they can still help coach them.
Excellent video!
Well done!
I’m still trying to not overlook the obvious.
Nice video
Thanks for this! It answered questions I had about Harmonielehre, a piece I love, ever since hearing the west coast premier (around 1985?). I knew it referenced Schoenberg's harmony treatise, but didn't know about the quotes/references to music by Schoenberg, Sebelius and Mahler. To what extent do you think Adams' chamber symphonies were inspired by or otherwise relate to the Schoenberg chamber symphonies? Another possible video topic (something I'd love to learn more about): the relationship between Mahler and Schoenberg and their influence on each other.
That is an interesting question. I don’t know the Adams chamber symphonies well enough to have a good answer. I heard Schoenberg’s Second String Quartet live once and that was a very striking piece.
I know Schoenberg and the entire Second Viennese School really admired Mahler. They saw him as still in line with the German tradition but he had expanded it in many ways.
That's a big chord that Mahler used. I found it difficult to understand the harmonic 'justifications' just from listening to your description so I wrote it out. I think it's something like the following: C#7 (M7, nat.9, b9, #11, b13). Thanks for this really interesting video on a great piece! So much has been said about serial, atonal and 'post-tonal' music that it's refreshing to hear about a 20th century tonal piece for a change.
I’m glad that you enjoyed it!
I played in a performance of Harmonielehre with the New Mexico Symphony, I think in the 90s. One movement is based on an Emily Dickinson poem called "Wild Nights." The women in the chorus had t shirts printed that said, "I survived Wild Nights with...." followed by the names of the conductors.
I think you may be referring to Adams piece “Harmonium.” That piece has a chorus and was written a bit before Harmonielehre. Also an absolutely amazing piece!
@@danielkrenz Quite right. Thank you.
Real interesting stuff , have came across mention of Arnold written theory. Have you read his manual on harmony? But yeah not come to grips with him yet - I've got a strong ear for dissonance and unusual harmony - only heard pieces at uni or on radio. But6 yeah this may be a good entry point as I've always loved Adams.
I have Schoenberg's treatise on harmony. I haven't read it completely, but I have flipped through it for reference. I plan on going through it systematically one day. Schoenberg was incredibly highly regarded as a professor of theory and harmony.
This is very interesting, very good! I'm interested in the Sibelius 4th quote. Could you say from where in the 4th it's taken?
Adams has said (on his website I believe) that he was directly inspired by Sibelius’ use of muted celli. So in Adams 2nd movement he uses extensive muted celli.
@@danielkrenz Thanks! I didn't find that; I have yet to explore Earbox thoroughly.
Very interesting video. Since the Adams piece is polyvalent in it's meaning, there is a great deal going on , particularly in the final movement (!). I think on one level, the target is T.W. Adorno, most especially, his "Philosophy of Modern Music" (not directly Schoenberg or his work.), most especially the very unpleasant remarks directed at Stravinsky. The finale of the Adams work, with it's American exuberance and machine - like, all instruments going full blast ( le Sacre?) , seems very much a defense of Igor-in- America to my ears. Thanks for your thoughts on this piece
I
That is an interesting angle I have not considered before. I know Adams explicitly references Schoenberg in this piece, but maybe Stravinsky by proxy. It is interesting to note that even Stravinsky turned to the 12-tone method later in his life.
Thanks for video! Very exciting! I didn't understand the name of music at 7:00. Can you reply with the name of piece? Thanks!
That is Gurrelieder by Arnold Schoenberg!
@@danielkrenz Thanks a lot!
Merci good commentary.
I might be one of those disillusioned with modern music since I don’t like it and will never make the effort to try. I had a season pass to the St Paul Symphony in the nose bleed section during my college days. They would play one or two modern pieces followed by a classic. They did it that way on purpose so that people wouldn’t leave when the music stopped and the cats started howling. I don’t know if they played one or two modern pieces since I caught up on my sleep from working as a night time security guard. I know that nobody complained of my snoring.
I always found the choice of e-minor very interesting because there are few large symphonic works in this key. But the most prominent is probably Brahms IV, another piece where a composer tries to reach the borders of (his personal, at least) tonality. Might also be intentionally by Reich - Brahms being the predominant musical figure in Vienna before Mahler...
Really good video, I learned quite a bit.
It's pretty depressing when you're a fan of more than one composer but they both feel or one feels the need to draw a sword
It's the same as usual I guess but I'm surprised the classical lane hasn't gotten over these quarrels yet - I envy Adams' daringness though.
Then again this was still the 20th century and I think we actually have gotten over it to some extent now.
So glad we have Schnittke, Ives, Crumb.
I don't think Adams was being petty or anything. I think he was expressing (and re-expressing) his belief in the power of tonality. That just happens to cut against Schoenberg. Still a fascinating and great piece though!
@@danielkrenz
It's even more ironic that Adams is defending tonality and not minimalism. This bares no similarities to someone like Mozart or the Artusi scandal.
To him minimalism must be a language, which kind of sets him apart from Reich.
I'm kind of curious what will be considered "simplistic" in the future, possibly Schoenberg himself?
Have you read "Hallelujah Junction" by Adams? It is his auto biography and a very well written book imo. It is also very well curated and produced, but nevertheless there are some great insights in there about his thoughts on minimalism and an 'effective' musical language.
Schoenberg rules!
I can almost see him doing the Ozzy metal hand gesture. Just at the entry of the retrograde inversion of the row.
"...finds faults with the 12-tone method." At my wedding reception we had the Penguin Cafe Orchestra playing on the sound system. Somebody found it so disturbing that they went over and turned it off.
I don't know the Penguin Cafe Orchestra, I will go check it out!
Where can I find the score of Harmonielehre
I am not sure where you can for free online. But it is published by Hal Leonard.
Didn't Schoenberg make a comment that he thought he had done damage to music? I recall reading that.
I don't know about that quote, but if you find it let me know. I couldn't imagine Schoenberg saying that, but he also did say that "there is plenty of good music still to be written in C major."
@@danielkrenz I heard that quote about C major too and don't find it completely surprising he'd says that. I also heard Schoenberg thought the 12-tone method he developed was a fantastic way to generate interesting material to work with, but it wasn't an end in itself. Have you read anything that confirms he said something like that? He did step back towards tonality in some of his late works, such as the Theme and Variations in G minor Op. 43b and Ode to Napoleon Bonaparte Op. 41. The latter is one of my favorite pieces of his. FWIW, I love most of his music (romantic, free-atonal, late-somewhat-tonal) but not the stricter 12-tone works.
@@chrispc I have had trouble tracking down the source of those quotes. I see them posted online, but I can't seem to find any source deeper than that. I think it is a way to generate material, but I doubt that a composer like Schoenberg would just see the 12 tone method as a way to generate material.
I prefer late Scriabin over them two. Even Messiaen is more interesting to me.
I need to do a video about those two…
@@danielkrenz It would be great. Synesthesia for live... and death.
What the hell is a sharp 7?
If Adams wanted to avoid being godlike, he has succeeded eminently.
Hi! A fine introduction to some of the thinking behind Harmonielehre and John Adams's music in general. I love Harmonielehre, such a powerful piece with such spicy dissonances that still resolve into actual emotions. Some years ago I bought a few cd sets of new Viennese school music conducted by Boulez, but I simply cannot stand listening to them, alas. So I'll confess to a marked preference for tonalism. Just a side note, your pronunciation of German and French words and names distracts from your very interesting remarks. Harmonielehre, Gurrelieder, Pierrot Lunaire, Schoenberg. Try to do better next time! 🎻😎
I think I know the CD set that you are talking about, and I really cherish the recording of Webern's Passacaglia on there.
A bit of a snob remark about his German pronunciation there...
@@JohnathandosSantos No, I don't agree. To me, it's a matter of respect for other cultures and languages. We (the rest of the world) go through the trouble of learning another language, the least that an American or Englishman can do is get the pronunciation right of a language they certainly did nothing to understand.
This was fascinating. I love John Adams and hate Schoenberg, it's good to hear my feelings are backed up by some sort of logic.
Haha I do not intend for this video to bash Schoenberg. But just to show Adams’ relationship with him.
"Arnold Schoenberg changed the course of music history permanently. " Sure about that? Outside of academia? Compared to Jazz? The work of say, Van Doesberg in architecture, had an enormous impact - you can see it simply by walking down the streets of any major city. Or Picasso in painting. It's undeniable that he had an impact on how we represent the world in visual art. Now. Let's hear an example of comparable magnitude with regard to atonality in music. You won't. Simply because it doesn't exist outside of the rarified and artificial environment of the classroom or faculty lounge.
I do not think that the modern day popularity of one’s work determines if it had an impact. Certainly Schoenberg’s brand of dodecaphonic music has fallen out of fashion, however, I am at a loss to think of a more consequential musical figure in the 1900’s. Perhaps Stravinsky? But even Schoenberg had an effect on Stravinsky. Would you say that Schoenberg didn’t change the course of music? If so, I’m curious who you think has changed the course of music.
@@danielkrenz Thanks for asking. Louis Armstrong. Also Duke Ellington, Gershwin even. The consequential western music of the early 20th century is the Afro-American style called Jazz. It is this style that parallels the work of the important visual artists of the day, not the music of composers like Schoenberg. Similarly Jazz musicians effectively added to the musical vocabulary of western music, including new ways of being dissonant and new ways of using traditional instruments. These new sounds and techniques had a powerful impact, on par with the visual arts. I'm not commenting on the quality of Arnold's music, but how important it really is to western civ. Not very. Let's have the same sense of scale applied to music that we do to the visual arts.
Harmonielehre is a nice word, please learn how to pronounce it!
Adams is unlistenable
Do you find that for all Adams? I find there is a pretty big gap between his earlier works and his later stuff. I much prefer the earlier works like Harmonium.
@@danielkrenz sure. I’m being dramatic. But I’d rather listen to something else. ;)
Schoenberg, being one example
Thank you, very interesting. Let me give one tip: put "" in front of your website in the comments and it will become a clickable link. Otherwise people have to copy and paste it, an extra step (which I took) which will reduce the number of people who go to your website.
Fixed it, thank you!