Kart Racers - Designing Fun for Everyone ~ Design Doc
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
- Kart racers have such a wide appeal compared to most other genres. What do they do to draw in such a large audience? Let's look at the tools used by Mario Kart, Sonic All-Stars, Crash Team Racing and Diddy Kong Racing to appeal to so many people.
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"The Sonic & SEGA & All-Star & Racing & Transform & Knuckle"
That joke never died, i guess
Bayu Swatama
At least this guy is using it in a context where it’s actually kind of funny and doesn’t just scream „& Knuckles“ in the comment sections of unrelated videos.
This joke should never die
This joke stays and never leave
The Android version isn't updated anymore even though nowadays phones should be able to handle it very easily :/
Legends never die.
I also liked how in CTR, getting 10 Wumpa Fruit gave you an upgraded item, too. It gave more incentive to target Wumpa Fruit and really changed how the track played out the later in the race it was. Going from TNT that can be shaken off to Nitro crates that blow up on contact is a small change that impacts the gameplay in big ways.
There's one aspect of item design that you didn't bring up - skill (rather than item) based countering, such as how in Double-dash and DS a correctly timed mini-turbo could dodge the blue shell.
I liked blue shell dodging better in double dash, because the timing was a 1 frame window. So while it's possible to dodge , it's EXTREMELY hard to do consistently, especially with how loose the handling is in that game. In DS, it's laughable how easy it is to dodge blue shell, which makes first place absolutely untouchable if they can also snake (which is also simplified from double dash). I love both games though!
MK7 makes things REALLY interesting because everyone can see what items everyone else was holding. Back before the online became a swamp of hackers, there were entire metas just revolving around what happens once a blue shell enters play. Like, it became viable (but not 100% reliable) to deliberately dive down a pit just after the shell was fired, so that -- hopefully -- the #2 player ends up in first just in time to take the hit. Then you get fished out, hit the boost landing, and sail back by them.
I think those are just exploits that the developers might have missed.
In Mario Kart Wii, you can destroy a red shell against a flat wall if you drift to it and immediately drift away. It's really hard to do but extremely rewarding if you do it consistently. In MK8, it's nearly impossible to dodge them without an item.
@@tomcrawley3343 that's one of my favorite mechanics in MKWii, the loose red shell tracking that lets you manipulate them just a bit at a higher skill level
like the video says, MKWii is a bit too hectic at times, but there were a couple nice things like that which just never saw the light of day in other mario kart games
That said, the POW blocks suck
either you don't know how to dodge them and they kick your ass, or you know how to counter them and they actually become interesting. A prompt that says "Shake!" would be really useful there, because once you know how to counter them, when one pops up you actually have to think about how you're driving since it makes you glide in the direction of your momentum in a completely straight line for a bit and can really disrupt the race, plus if you're too in the middle of something to shake your wiimote you get hit by the more powerful uncountered POW block :)
I appreciate the acknowledgment of Snowboard Kids and Sonic & All-stars Racing Transformed. Those games definitely deserve it. Especially Sonic
I think S&ASRT is better than MK8, in almost every way.
It's definitely underrated.
I think Transformed is the best single player Kart Racer out there. 90% of the tracks are great (The returning retro courses got a slight downgrade compared to the original Sonic All Stars), tons of content, lots of unlocks. It's a good campaign to chip away at. I think the online multiplayer falters a bit compared to Mario Kart. Online lobbies are clunky, races take a bit too long to start, and I think runaway victories are too common with veterans often being ahead by at least a quarter of the track. You can still get into online races now (on PC at least) but it's kind of sparse and after revisiting it last month, I think there's a reason (beyond general marketing) for why the online player base for it fell off faster than Mario Kart or Modnation Racers.
@@DesignDoc All of those are fair criticisms of the game (even though I do love it for the skill it rewards I can see why newcomers would not want to come back)
Maybe if they gave the game Team Sonic Racing's team based Racing options along with single Racing options, do you think it would keep newcomers coming back?
+Design Doc Transformed is certainly a high-quality game, but in terms of tracks/kart handling I think I preferred the first Sonic and SEGA game more. In Transformed there's a lot more long stretches of road compared to the first game and I find that the vehicles are harder to handle around corners.
Sonic isnt very good
Sonic All Stars Racing Transformed remains my go-to kart racer. It's just so fast, frantic and rewarding. It's a kart racer designed to feel like an arcade racer. It's just a shame folks don't give it much of a chance because "WHY IS SONIC IN A CAR?". You'd think people would look past that and see what's under the hood.
Yep, along with CTR it is my favorite of the entire genre. I just love the more skill based gameplay and how good it feels to get a flow going constantly linking tricks and drifts together. Honorable mention goes to Modnation Racers too despite the fact that the online is now dead for it.
megasoniczxx Yeah, and UFG closed years ago too.
Yeah the typical and toxic sonic fanbase. They’re kind acting dickishly with TSR cause i doesn’t have the Transformed gimmick or track design style. I do like the the mechanics.
Sonic outside a car would make it a bad game
@@apagan0075 I dont like TSR because they let their non-Sonic character in the closet once again...
Darn Nintendo is still doing great by adding Link, the villager, the inklings and some other guest in MK8DX
Great video, I love Kart racers. I don't know if you'll read this, but there's a point about this games I want to discuss: how the damage by items is reflected in your character. I think Mario Kart is vastly superior in this point. Ever since 64 if you got hit by a shell, you'll be knocked... In motion. Sure, you stop totally, but that's less than a second. Banana peel? Just slide in motion.
Now let's see another games... The one that comes to my mind is mod Nation Racers. Great game, but.... Missile? Black screen, reset position, full stop. Land mine? Black screen, reset position, full stop. It breaks the inmersion and the game just feel... Weird.
Well, just my opinion.
That's why I like the snowman and parachute item in SBK. Once you're hit with it, you're stuck on a straight line until you mash out of it or you collide into something to be unstuck.
Did you imply Garfield Kart Racing™ was bad?
*yes*
@@Artoliann Then you haven't played it my boy!
@Arks you're right I haven't played it yet
it's bad and i have played it
@@NickKrishnan its bad for todays standards, but you got to remember its over 20+ years old, even mario cart had its falts back then. it was an amazing racer game at the time.
What you said about Crash Team Racing is so true, glad you mentioned it.
In my opinion, is the only kart racing game that gives to the pros something fun and not luck based.
Is just an amazing game.
The skill cap for CTR is actually insanely high
One other game that is very deep (not much as ctr) is sonic and allstars trasformed. If you learn how to use the boost in that game, even itens can't keep up with you.
I disagree with what you said about Mario Kart Wii’s item system. It’s easy to dodge some of these items like the Pow block, by shaking you Wii wheel, or the red shell, by holding a defensive item behind you. The game is also very shortcut heavy, (with tracks like N64 Mario Raceway and Mushroom Gorge), so getting an item like a mushroom in a bottom spot can really bring your race back.
I feel like you didn't go into CTR's (Crash Team Racing) boosting mechanics deeply enough. Boosting while drifting requires timing, which rewards skilled play and creates a higher skill cap. It adds a level of decision making into CTR's driving because each boost compromises control, and to stay drifting long to reach the third boost (which also gives a bigger boost), it requires good positioning and possible compromise from the earlier two boosts (better timing gives a better boost, so the player might need to use the first two boosts earlier in order to even reach the third boost).
The timing mechanic isn't even the best part of the boosting. The best part is the fact that good drifts build up a reserve of boost (which can only be built up if the player is using a boost that has either been built from a boostpad, landing a high enough jump or from the starting boost). If the player is skilled enough, they can build enough boost to last several seconds of normal driving. Being able to build up boost, knowing when and how to build up boost, and knowing when to use the boost creates a nice little meta game in being able to keep and use boost. Being able to keep top speed by boosting after hitting a boost pad keeps the speed from the boostpad, (which is higher than normally attainable) but only keeps the boost from the boostpad if you drop below top speed.
This system is further improved by the loose kart mechanics. In CTR you are able to gain boost from any jump that sends you high enough, you gain and lose momentum with hills, and can take shortcuts and cut across grass that would normally only be possible by using items. CTR's loose courses with it's loose mechanics can create interesting paths through courses because there are so many little ways to create speed or cut corners.
This is why I like CTR over other kart racers like Mario Kart. Boosting is as simple as drifting in Mario Kart, while in CTR it requires and rewards more skill. Due to the boosting mechanic, every time you take a turn in CTR it will be different because different levels of boosting will create different speeds, but in Mario Kart, every turn will be taken the same (relatively) because they will be coming at the same speed since boosts from drifts disappear. You can't cut across grass in Mario Kart without having an item even if you use the boost from a drift, making the path making more rigid. The drift arc is much more stiff than in CTR, because in CTR, the angle in which you enter a drift has a much greater affect on the angle of a drift(though brake drifting is cool). And there are no CC options in CTR because skilled players can find ways to make speed while still giving unskilled players the ability to go slower with higher control, unlike in Mario Kart where the CC is low, making it unbearable slow for the skilled players, or setting it to a high CC, making it unwieldy for unskilled players.
Mario Kart is too rigid, creating low skill cap and limited depth because the gameplay is too deterministic. While I find CTR to have really dynamic gameplay with a lot of depth to it's mechanics, which creates varied gameplay with a lot of decision making and interesting ways to drive around the different courses, creating high skill cap that is incredibly fun because of how much is packed into it. I know there are optimisation and high skilled tech in Mario Kart, but these kind of optimisations come with any game, they aren't developed as intentional core mechanics, making them marginally affect gameplay. As well as me not going into a lot of CTR's high skill tech that would be comparable to the high skill tech in mario Kart that I didn't mention.
Edit - ua-cam.com/video/GMHYrCZBmk0/v-deo.html
Just found this interview. It seems like they intended to make the drift system as deep as it was. They also wanted the game to be more just trying not to fall of the track, and the challenge coming from optimising the path through the track. It seems they wanted to make CTR more vertically involved by adding the hang time boost meter, as well as giving life to a lot of CTR's advanced techniques: Mid air power drifting, Projectiling, cresting, speed ghost and froggy. (they all involve jumping or vertical movement).
I was trying not to go too deep into the mechanics, if I did, my post would have been twice as long and I was trying to keep it (relatively) short. I was also trying to demonstrate how CTR was good on a basic level, and how it's core mechanics make it a good game, rather than trying to say the whole game was good based on a few unintentional mechanics like Fire Hopping and Wavedashing. Though I also do like the more advance tech because they really do add more to a great game, but I also appreciate how much CTR has to offer without going into the advanced tech.
S&ART Is also surprisingly deep in it's drifting, for starters there's a possibility of 10 boost levels.
CTR has an incredibly high skill ceiling and amazing depth to it's driving mechanics, mostly brought about by the boosting mechanics like you said. Every boosting and driving mechanic in CTR intersects so brilliant. The skill cap is fantastically high and honestly makes it the best kart racer to date. It's a shame that more people don't know how deep CTR's core mechanics go.
+Tom Crawley I'm afraid if they make a remake, it won't be as good as the original. If they change the mechanics slightly, it could completely change the game.
It also bothers me when people want a remake when they don't understand the mechanics. They say they used to play when the were five, and because of that, it's the best kart racer.
+Toowiggly I agree completely. Likelihood is, Vicarious Vision would remake the game for a casual player base and aim for a more mario kart-esque approach. It's unlikely that anybody who would work on the remake would be massively familiar with the in-depth boosting mechanics that made CTR so great. A great deal of the big short cuts that made CTR interesting would also be removed. I just can't see a remake being faithful to the mechanics enough to satisfy the hardcore player base, so I'm very sceptical of one.
Could you imagine the exact same CTR, mechanics and all, with updated graphics and an online mode? It would be a dream come true!
Sneaky! I was thinking, "I wonder if he'll reference ModNation Racers", and the song at the end got me.
I think he should have talked about it because it's in my opinion one of the best Kart Racing games of all time. It did everything absolutely right.
@@c.t.a.5983 and it had a level editor!
It has one problem...
It's a PS3 exclusive!!!!
IT waS oN tHe PsViTa ToO unCULTURed swINe
@@Definitely_a_Fox Vita version was actually alot better too adding more item types that helped with balance and all theme types are in it. Defeault level design was better too. Only issue was it's framerate and the fact it wasn't like 12 players. We need a real MNR2 with all the additions on Vita
Never talked about Modnation Racers yet included the music at the end. thats pretty petty right there. One of the best kart racers with solid mechanics, a funny and engaging story, a robust online multiplayer mode, and home to some of the best user generated content out there. Some UGC tracks in that game have reached legendary status for what they offer and the fact that it has this UGC element is what makes it the ultimate kart racer in my opinion.
Infinite tracks, infinite replay
The game's real good but it was also heavily reliant on online connectivity which is being shut down. Because of that, we decided to not talk about it but we also wanted to give it a little nod.
@@DesignDoc Wonder if that has anything to do with the developer's studio shutting down. That sucks! Hopefully someone makes some sort of online recreation on PC if Sony doesn't own the IP.
Yeah, the online servers were shut down yesterday. Really disappointing, you barely get any racing games at all that allow you to customise character, kart and tracks and share them amongst the community, and Modnation Racers was probably _the_ best at doing just that. But of course after 8 years now it was going to happen eventually, especially when United Front Games themselves went defunct.
I'm just hoping a similar game comes out at some point in the future, because Modnation Racers definitely stood out, and will (in my opinion) remain one of the best kart racers out there.
Yeah it was a great game, but, to me, the long loading times made it very tedious to play it
I love a good kart racer. The combination of wacky fun and arcade style racing makes it a competitive but casual experience that feels just right for everyone.
It's been so long since I've played MKWii as a casual game so I can't really comment on that, but the game really shines in a more advanced setting. Tight lines with inside drifting bikes, knowing how and when to wheelie, plus techniques like low tricking and spindrifting really set it apart from other kart racers in that its mechanics allow for a much more competitive environment. Not to mention all the amazing shortcuts (intentional and unintentional) that range from easy to still risky for a veteran and you get a really special game that I still play regularly online via custom servers.
@@ddd7038 your a fuckin idiot
I think another factor you could have taken into account is the effect of hitstun after getting hit by an item. Mario karts like 64 and every entry after DS have really high stun after getting hit, whereas double dash has by far the lowest in the series (seriously, look at how little damage items do in that game, it's insane). Personally, I think because of the low hitstun, Double dash has the most satisfying item system, where items do with enough damage to where you can feel it, but not so much to where you'll lose seven spots because of one red shell at the line.
I feel like good track design is the same as good level design in general. Consistent theming that alters mechanics. Just look at Mount Wario in Mario Kart 8. In every lap there’s like, 3 different mechanics. They squeezed out every bit of potential that the theme of “Snowy Mountain” had for a Mario Kart track.
Also, I never liked how they removed the wiggle boost mechanic ever since Wii. Yeah, it needed a nerf to prevent a serpentine meta, but now every turn is just that much more safe. Risk vs reward mechanics should be added, not removed!
The risk-reward of drifting is still there; they just removed the asinine thumb-twiddling to lower the dexterity ceiling.
To me, it felt like the kind of "hard for the sake of being hard" input you'd find in a fighting game, not a racer.
It's been 6 months and I'm still not over *_*IMPLICIT LOVE INTEREST BEEP BOOP_** from the Pokémon Rivals video. It becomes relevant in pretty much every movie.
Considering the modnation music at the end, I'm surprised you didn't bring it up since it does the diddy kong racing item level up system better. For those unaware, modnation racers also has an item system where there's only 4 items but they can be leveled up to level 3, and the leveled up versions are SIGNIFICANTLY better.
For example a level 1 rocket is just a straight shot, a level 2 rocket fires 3 homing rockets at the guy in front of you, and a level 3 rocket fires like 20 homing rockets at everyone in front of you. This isn't even mentioning how every single weapon and weapon level can also be used as a mine if you're in the lead
Wait what's this modnation you are talking about? I'm interested to know
Modnation Racers, it released a couple years after Little Big Planet on the PS3 and followed the same general design principles where you could basically make whatever you wanted. tracks, karts, and drivers were all massively customizable. It's my favorite kart racer of all time because of all the good memories I have and also it's well thought out game design concepts
Dude modnation is the best cart racer of all time. So much freedom!
1. Course maker. Download karts and courses for free.
2. Items r powerful but balanced. I love how boost maxed out leaves a wormhole where a skilled chaser can sneak through.
3. Tapping x after a drift to stabilize your kart and to immediately cancel Into another drift.
4. So many other reasons to type out alone.
I wish it would come back for PS4.
@@Invenbel Holy crap!!! A friend was telling me yesterday about this racing game that he used to play in which you could customize everything and download created characters but he didn't remember the name, and now the day after i read your comment! @_@
I'm still waiting for it to make a comeback. But San Diego studio decided to make drawn to death instead :/ They had something really special there. I can't express how much I love that game.
Transformed's comeback items is exactly why i enjoy the game. I don't like the idea of being at the line in Mario cart, getting hit by an item, and going from first to 3rd in a 4 person race when the finish was only 5 feet away. The wasp in Transformed reward player skill for being able to weave through them, and it doesn't have the MK8 problem where instead of getting actually defensive items to defend against RC cars/red shells, the leader gets stuck with coin pickups
snakevenom56 In MK8DX, the 1st place racer gets shells, bananas, bombs and the rare chance of the Super Horn. When you have one coin in your item slot try to hold it and get another item box, you’ll always get a defensive item cause the game won’t give you 2 coins. Bob-ombs are super good in 200cc
DD dorsett The Ford GT GTE It depends, is all about item management but i do have gotten some dumb RNG like getting a horn and a bomb.
9:57
Wrong. Sonic Transformed brings in the Swarm item to replace the Blue shell, and to much greater effect. Instead of being a random "Screw you" to first place that they have to be lucky to avoid, it's an item that both the thrower and the defender(s) have to have skill for. If the thrower uses it when the defender is in a tight chamber, it's incredibly difficult to avoid. Also, while it doesn't always have a guaranteed way to avoid damage, the defender can minimize the amount of times they get hit by maneuvering carefully. Even if they avoid it all, they still have to go out of their way and slow down to do so. The blue shell, on the other hand, is near unavoidable and can take away a skilled person's incentive to even bother playing, when they suddenly drop five places right before the finish line. That just isn't fair, and you can't argue that it is.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Amen to that.
At least he mentioned how unfun the Blue Shell is, but it was a missed opportunity to mention that Sonic Transformed got the item designed to slow down front runners in a non bullshit way right
Ikr! The first game's items were just copies of Mario Cart Items, but in transformed they really thought about the items more than just a gamble for a better place.
+2
that depends on if the second place player is close by. otherwise, you're left with no options if you don't have a mushroom. and people make strategies for everything; that doesn't support the idea that the blue shell in particular needs to be there (The post you replied to just laid out how the swarm item in the sonic racing game makes the game deeper and more complex by giving the defender some ways around the item when skillfully done).
I loved diddy kong racing more than any other cart racer. The mechanics of mario kart when you go zero g or fly are barely different. With diddy kong, it truly feels like another challenge. Also, the bosses and story are amazing, and the levels are not as chaotic so developing a strategy feels more consistent.
That snowboard kids music at the beginning... I hear you.
We really wanted to talk about it but felt that we couldn't fit it in without going off on a tangent. We'll touch on it one day though. Those first two SBK are STILL good. The DS game is the worst.
@@DesignDoc I'm very ready to talk about the lifts in that game and HO BOY. I remember being so excited hearing about the DS game. I never got it, and I guess I'm glad I didn't.
The only good thing about that game is that Jack Frost from SMT is playable.
Can't wait!
Love snowboard kids, I'd watch that video. Maybe work in beetle adventure racing or vigilante 8, nobody seems to remember those
Rip modnation...
Right. I like how he used their menu music at the end but didn't mention them lol
Sadly, the online function has ended but its spirit lives on!!
#MNR2
I used to have so much fun with that game when I was younger
Great video. I think it's also interesting to talk about Sonic riders and how that game changed some of the basics ideas of a kart race to be something unique. I disagree that mario kart has a better items than Sonic and all star racing transformed because a skillful player in SASRT can avoid any items making the system fair and competitive.
I like that you showed off Sonic & All Stars Racing Transformed. That game is very underrated
would have loved to have seen some coverage of the original lego racers game. That game was the jam.
jontiways yea it's item and track design are really in-depth
i fucking love lego racers but that game isn't really anything to write home about lol. the whole game is about who gets the first warp boost (or level 3 green block) and chains them for the rest of the race
yea that's very apparent when racing against Rocket Racer, the way to win is just to take all the green and white so that he cant fuck off in front of you, I may have nostalgia for that game but its hard as nails that last race. fuck that
I would argue that Mario Kart 8 had a worse item distribution than Mario Kart Wii, due to the fact that they're distributed according to distance and not position. (and the fact that you couldn't trail your items to chain another one and the prevalence of the coin in 1st place.)
So strong items being awarded to 2nd through 4th were not a rare occurrence if 1st was far enough which emptied the stock of power items for the players at the back.
2nd place being able to pick up triple red shells while you can only one item to defend yourself with was absolutely atrocious and was one on the reasons I stopped that game alltogether.
I personally also disliked much of the mchanics with laikitu in Mario Kart 8 in comparison to wii and other Mario Kart games, ir elt to controlling, and like it had a lack of freedom.
11:37 one thing to note: the Mage Mushroom is a less powerful star. While it does have a big hitbox it loses to the star in most other aspects and actually makes you more vulnerable to others' stars or Bullet Bills due to its size. I also think the POW Block is pretty interesting: When on a straight line, it barely has an impact on you aside from losing your items, which is usually more benefitial to leading players, and if used correctly it can be timed so it hits certain players when they're in the middle of a turn, messing up their lines
Really great video man, makes me really miss the days where I grinded CTR all day long.
Was waiting to see if Modnation Racers would get a mention glad it got a nod in the music :D
Awesome video! I find it interesting how you saved "the best for last", leaving the most iconic aspect of kart racers as the last visited topic.
It was very interesting to see the footage of track design and be instantly reminded of those tracks in the games shown. It was an instant and powerful proof of what you just said about good design making tracks memorable.
And lastly, a remark about MKWii: I think it's too chaotic because of the great increase in racers. 4 more players, and you have 150% of the usual chaos that items bring. It could not be exactly 150% if it was balanced out by design of how items show up, but I vouch for the ones that feel this wasn't a thing done very well. :P
"Items let kids play kart games with their parents"
This truly brings a tear to my eye
I really enjoy the vector art in each of your videos, such a clean way to present yourself.
I think Chocobo racing should have been included here.
Everyone always forgets about it. It was pretty good.
Yes! Overlooked game, everyone called it a Mario Kart clone back in the day but it certainly has unique stuff.
Chocobo Racing is amazing, my second favorite after CTR
Motor toon grand prix is overlooked too
CTR best kart racer ever. Mario Kart series is still great, but they're all so stiff in comparison to CTR, and o swear the Newer ones are only getting more stiff with each iteration.
I don't remember if it was said here, but one of the big reasons that people hate the blue shell, is that it is not only a random fuck you, it doesn't even help the person who uses it. You're basically giving 2nd place the lead. Which is why you rarely hear bad talk about items like lightning, which outside of team battles, solely helps the person who used it, slows down first, but keeps the rest of the pack where they are, unless they fell into a pit. And games have figured out since before Mario Kart 64, with Wipeout 2097. Wipeout's Quake not only feels and looks amazing to activate, but it slows down everyone in front of you, allowing it to be an effective comeback mechanic, while not solely screwing first place.
I caught my son watching this video saying that Diddy Kong racing wasn't perfect in every way. I won't be having this blasphemy in my house
My favorite kart racer is SRB2 Kart, which is built off of a Sonic fangame called Sonic Robo Blast 2, which was made in the Doom engine. Yes, really. This game's history is weird.
My favorite design aspect of the game is the blue shell replacement: The self-propelled bomb. The SPB actually slows down as it gets closer to you, going below your top speed around when it enters the bottom of your screen. As long as you stay at your top speed, it won't be able to hit you. If you slow down for a bit, even by drifting, the SPB will probably hit. However, by drifting well (knowing when to do it, releasing at the right time), the mini-turbo will barely save you from getting hit, allowing you to complete an entire lap with the SPB following you. Hell, someone made a mod that spices up time attack mode by throwing an SPB on your tail from the starting line. So getting targeted by an SPB is never a death sentence, but you can't make any mistakes or you WILL get hit. If you get the lightning shield item, it can be detonated to actually remove an SPB (I think it's equivalent to a Mario Kart item that also destroys blue shells?), meaning if you last long enough to get one from an item box, you can basically be rewarded for outrunning the SPB until that point.
The presence of an SPB also means it's risky to pass the frontrunner, because the SPB will quickly turn to chase you instead. If you're confident in your ability to outrun it, you can take 1st and try your luck, or you can play it safe and try to hit the frontrunner with another item (like the red or green shell equivalents, or just running them over with invincibility) so they spin out and get hit by the SPB, allowing you to safely take 1st if they fail to dodge. It can be an interesting strategic decision, and opting to just take 1st and deal with the SPB becomes an easier decision when you're on the final lap.
Would absolutely recommend SRB2 Kart. It being open source and in a well-understood engine means there's a LOT of really cool mods for it. Like Juicebox, which rebalances the game to make races a lot tighter, and catching up from setbacks a lot easier. There's even a lot of gamemode mods, like Frontrun, which changes the win condition to holding 1st long enough to deplete your own timer, king of the hill style. Plus there's dozens of character mods you can add to your server if you wanna play as just about any popular character.
Instant sub! I've been thinking about Kart Racers a lot lately, and honestly this is the sort of video that I wish I had made. Excellent work top to bottom!
Funny, I actually thought Super Circuit had a lot of memorable tracks. Cheep Cheep Island, Lakeside Park, Cheese Land, Sky Garden, I could go on.
Can i comment that sonic transformed, to me, feels significantly better than mario kart in almost every sense? Emphasis on transformed, that new one doesn't look like it will be anywhere near as good.
I think aside from the smaller roster, it could be as good as the first game but with Transformed's mechanics... which sounds fun to me. And I've heard it has a good amount of depth and people have used the new team mechanics in ways the dev team hadn't even thought of, or something along those lines.
It's just SEGA marketing the game so poorly that's the main problem. The focus is revealing the roster (understandable since many of the characters are ones who've yet to be playable in over a decade) rather than communicating practical uses of the new elements and showing us how they're going to set up the stage themes. The whole "zones" thing seems vague. Sonic like, sure, but vague, and gives people the impression we're only getting 7 Sonic stages reused 3 times for each one, rather than 21 different stages from a variety of games in the series being turned into tracks. I wish they would go into more detail about this shit instead of keeping us in the dark and only giving us a small trailer every other month. Not to mention- there's no concrete release date. They said winter 2018, and now that it's October, I'm starting to think Smash Ultimate having a December 7th release scared them away from the holiday 2018 money and they're silently delaying it until they decide on a date to avoid the game bombing and possibly even for extra polish and more content. But the way they're communicating things with Sonic games these days in general needs to change. Even just a public demo or track showcase would go a LONG way to get the message out that this game is worth investing in.
@@LeopoldLitchenstein
It has a May release date.
@@SeanUCF I heard. And I'm glad they finally gave it a date and hope the delay is worth it.
@@LeopoldLitchenstein
Same! I want this game now!
4:40 crash nitro kart did the subtle vehicle gravity transformations in 2003....!
12:04 "Comeback mechanics exist to let kids play with their parents"
You clearly had cooler parents than I did. Stars and Chain-Chomps meant that my Dad didn't ALWAYS finish 12th.
Totally here for the CTR love!...
...& Knuckles
I feel like you misunderstood Diddy Kong Racing. The reason its good is because of its drifting and control, which was not seen in the video. It has no mini turbo yes, but your speed increases when you're drifting. Ideally, you want to be drifting all the time, giving the game a high skill ceiling. This doesn't lend itself to a casual experience. You are the one who said that tending to casual players = good design. Where tending to competitive players can also = good design.
Same with comeback mechanics. I think DKR was designed to never rely on random outcomes - it literally has no RNG in the gameplay. Why knock the game that doesn't have any comeback items? I get the drawbacks for casual players, but not all racers need them. Also, the reason it has 4 level themes was because of the adventure mode... each area had those themes, which I know you know. But you just withheld.
Its just another option for a kart racing experience. I think not having comeback mechanics works for 2-4 players but not 12 players like modern racers have however.
But if anyone wants a DKR game with comeback items with more interesting tracks, Mickey Speedway USA uses the same engine and was partly developed by Rare.
"items dont turn it into a marioparty factory of randomness"
...have you played mkwii?
edit: 11:28 i really need to watch the whole video before commenting, hecc
With the modnation outro music, i respect that. That game was so underrated and awesome.
I think the pow block block and the mega mushroom are ok, because they are hold back by the fact that the pow block takes away the front racers items and doesn't affect racers mid air and the mega mushroom is not fully invincible, stars and bullet bills can still hit the users.
I think the thundercloud should be activated with the item button and give more speed and shrink the racer for less time.
This is why CTR is the best. The items feel fair. Rockets home in on targets, but they B line. So they can easily turn into walls, the warp portal targets 1st place, bombs roll and either blow up on impact or you can press the item button again to detonate it yourself, this also stops you from shooting 3 out at once if you happen to get the triple bombs. You can get the nitro off your head by bouncing over and over before it blows up, vials can be thrown forward or left behind. And so on. But most importantly, unlike in Mario kart, having 10 wumpa fruit gives all the items new effects or boosts in different ways. Warp portal hits everyone in front of you instead of only first place plus anyone who happens to be in the way. TNT turn into nitro crates that explode on contact instead of letting you bounce it off, and the vial effects you for a short time even after the initial hit. It's a good way to make people want to have 10 fruit while also not requiring you to have 10 fruit.
In my opinion, Dragon Driftway is inspired by Dragon Road from Sonic Unleashed.
I think as 1st place you should always have the chance (through high skill) to keep that place. There should always be a way to avoid the blue shell, it should be hard to do. But always possible. Like you need a specific Item to block the blue shell. That of course would also depend on luck, but what if you could hold multiple items at a time... hmm maybe that would be too much since then players would stock up on items until the final round and then total chaos... idk
My friends and I would always play CTR 7 Lap Races. It was alot of fun but there wasn't really anything happening until like the final two rounds.
If you could stock up on items maybe those rounds would be more meaningful.
I think though if you had one blue shell already stocked the chance of getting another one is like 1%
Wonder if any kart racer does something similar to this
I would say the first place should have options counter come-back measures, but that they should have to stray from the optimal path to do so. For example holding certain items longer, or taking weird paths to avoid things.
They should have a chance to lessen the impact of comeback-mechanics, but not to totally mitigate them.
CTR is still the best cart racer as far as I'm concerned!
And it always will be!
Kart*
Sorry it took a whole year to be told you're wrong.
@@davidm2031 it's okay ;) I always knew it was an unpopular opinion
@@davidm2031 sorry it took me a month to tell you that he's right
9:51 "Which prevent runaway victories."
I've had several runaway victories in online multiplayer on Mario Kart.
Craps on 'Diddy Kong Racing' - while using 80% of the video's musical background.
Arguments are fair though. The game excels as an Adventure Mode game primarily, along an acceptable battle mode. This type of gameplay and progression - with collectibles, bosses & overworld - is rarely seen in today's kart racers.
harm991 i'm always gonna love daddy Kong racing but I think it's understandable that it's going to not be as good as Mario kart 8 because it was the third cart racer ever made
Something to note about the racing line idea is how it's subverted in Mario Kart 8's anti-gravity sections. During these sections, the wheels of a player's kart will flip on their sides as they drive, meaning that if they collide with a glowing spinning bumper on the rack they get a speed boost. However, this also applies when they collide with another player, meaning that players can forgo their racing line in favour of driving a crowd of other players and using each other as speed boosts. It's just a subtle thing that completely changes the way an experienced player thinks about the race.
the issue with blue shell as a comeback mechanic is that it's used by the backline to give an advantage to the person in second place.
And to top it off it's not dodgeable if it's targeting you. There's nothing you can do, and there's a lot it can do to you if it hits at a bad time.
So that's where Lego Racers got the item upgrade mechanic from. Even though, like was said, only missile and speed boost is worth it, Lego Racers was still really fun. Plus that great soundtrack!
You guys should have talked about Zero Gear. The premier kart racer game for the PC!
Lego Racers did powerups very well.
Find a coloured brick to get a powerup related to that colour. Find a glowing white brick to power up your powerup. Do you use your powerup now, or wait until it's uber powerful? Use it to activate a shortcut? A line of them awaits up ahead. Will you sverve off track to keep your current powerup?
Modnation Racers deserves more love.
It's almost unfortunate that it has such easy and robust track, character, and kart making tools.
The game mechanics were sublime and addictive.
It really was one of the best kart racers of all time.
It only suffered from lack of bankable characters to sell it even though it sold more than a million copies. LBP Karting came out after and performed pretty bad both critically and financially.
Which is probably why Sony hasn't greenlit a Modnation Racers sequel. :(
#MNR2
I'd like to mention LEGO Racers. In Racers 1 the items were using the Diddy Kong Racing system but I thought it was way more engaging and fun. And their course design was great too!
Racers 2 switched the items to a classic system and it worked well, although with less charm. Where Racers 2 buried its competitors however was with its overworld. All of the courses were part of a specific biome you could explore at will, meet characters there or just look for shortcuts.
Both games were great in their own way and I still love them.
Oh, Big Snowman. I really liked the Snowboarding kids series... well the first one and second. The third one was the stake in the heart.
Appreciate the Modnation nod at the end, loved that game.
Walt Disney World Quest Magical Racing Tour has in my opinion one of the greatest track designs ever but nobody seems to notice it
There was some kart racer that was based on some sonic game? Like Sonic R? Don’t know the name but I think it had a perfect design for homing weapons.
The blue shell or homing missile equivalent only connected if the racer went below a certain speed. Essentially it meant that one could in theory out run the homing missile if they were good enough.
This is far more rewarding design than the largely unavoidable blue shell. There should be a way to overcome items with skill. It’s why I think in general I prefer the sort of obstacle placement type items and power up items (boosts, invincibility).
It takes away those moments of “there was nothing I could do” or at least diminishes them and makes them less frequent.
As for comeback mechanics I think track design is more crucial to this. To allow people who are behind to take more optimized routes I think is a much better way to promote skill in a racing game.
I LOVE All Star Transformed. I have it on Steam and the car transformation was a great mechanism for a racing game.
A chargeable drift mini-turbo was actually also in SNES super mario kart. As far as I know it wasn't in the instruction manual though, so very few people knew you could even do it.
Micro Machines was the original themed racing game. Legendary.
As the first game I ever played, it's hard hearing about the shortcomings of DKR, and in that way I find it fascinating that it's kept its appeal in spite of its shortcomings in design. Might be interesting to make a video analyzing how it kept itself interesting in that way. Great video!
Comback mechanics are really tricky for kart racers.
I do feel that the presence of coins for those it's present in helps act as a counterweight to the item handicapping. The frontrunner gets to coins first, so they get a coin advantage even when they're at an item disadvantage.
As far as the items themselves go... I dislike blue shells and target-all items, but some extra thought into what roles players in certain positions need is important.
A good goal is to aim to keep the distance between first and last relatively narrow. I think item handicapping based on the distance away from first and other players would be the best strategy.
For the pack leader, they should get defensive items to fend off attacks from those behind them. Bananas, green shells, etc (which is how Mario Kart works.)
However, attacking items, shells etc. are useless if 1st place is too far away. I think it would be appropriate to give those in close proximity to first attack items, but those a bit further away speed boost items to help close the gap.
If a player is in a tight pack, giving them multi-shells would make sense, as they need tools to deal with the chaos around them. And if a player is really far behind, give them some OP items like the star. The Blue shell really has no place in Mario Kart though... as really, how does ruining the day of the pack leader help the guy that's in last? That's really just chaos for the sake of chaos.
I feel like you could make a kart racer with the complexity and competitiveness of a fighting game while retaining the fun. A 1 on 1 race where the powerups are character specific. earned through skillful play and differ depending on whether you are first or second. Varied ways to gain speed, with harsher timings than traditional kart racers. Maps with interesting design but built to be predicted. Things like pendulums and changing geometries, bonuses to be found by taking riskier routes, and harder obstacles like periodically produced homing missiles. A fuel mechanic, forcing you to either play a more efficient character, hold back on the player input boost, or take slower, fuel regenerating routes.Skilled techniques such as improved slipstreaming, which could be countered by the lead player by a well timed brake-cancel (which I just made up), combo-like trick inputs, and matching your acceleration to the terrain to reduce wasted fuel where acceleration is capped.
Get on it developers!
Here's a point that I think might actually be great examples of these ideas. Take the ModNation Racers games. Despite ModNation being all about customization (thus kinda making a bad point with the course design segment as you can make tracks), it's the item design and skill gap I think is great.
In the game, when you do a drift, draft in front of players, hit an opponent, or gain airtime (spin system included) you gain "Boost." You can then have two choices that can integral to the game. You can just use it for boosting your way, or you can make a shield out of it, which can be a life-saver if you're about to get attacked by an item (the item system is similar to Diddy Kong Racing, but the original has random itemboxes, the sequel full-on embraced the DKR method). ModNation gives you upgradable items, with Level 3 being the most devastating. There's a high risk, high reward method of gameplay with the Boost you get, and if you fail to succeed using it, you can lose pretty hard. ModNation is still another great example of a good kart racer.
My favorite thing about Diddy Kong racing, apart from the vehicle choices, was the powerups not being random.
The only thing I can add is about MK Wii, the Mega is a weaker version of a star. If you hit a star or bullet in a mega you get hit like a normal player, you don´t get a speed boost, just accelerate faster than normal and can drive faster on offroad. It´s still a good item.
I think my first kart racer was Diddy Kong Racing. Had a lot of neat ideas, while not executed in the best ways, I did find it quite enjoyable.
Snaking in MKDS was the best. It was fun to play a kart racer that rewarded skill more than luck. I enjoy kart racing mechanics more than realistic racers, but hate their reliance on luck. Though I understand how snaking in MKDS would be alienating to newer players and the skill gap too large. This is why CTR remains the best kart racer out there. It's items and boosts enable to game to be more accessible to newer players and allow for an amount of randomness, but true skill in being able to chain boosts with jumps mini-turbos sets apart the skilled players without alienating casual players. The driving mechanics are so well done that you can ALWAYS be doing something and you rarely ever sit in a straight line driving. The APM of top tier CTR players is surprisingly high!
Odd to talk about DKR and not the thing that makes it so memorable; being a collect-a-thon with a Hub World ala Mario 64.
You had to go out of your way (and in many cases still win) to get Silver Coins and Keys, but the trade-off was that the AI usually didn't go the optimal route which allowed an experienced player to catch up.
Oh shit that Modnation Racers music at the end! Nice! It's so unfortunate that the servers for the game got shut down!
Yeah, that's the major reason why we avoided talking about it. Kind of a dead series that relied heavily on online play.
Modnation Racers had split-screen, it's not like it stopped working. You talked about Mario Kart DS who also had their servers shut down, which I'd argue is even harder to play today since you'd need 4 consoles with 4 games.
I can't really blame him for not talking about it too much since it's kinda similar to Diddy Kong Racing just with more interesting track layouts and removing the boat and plane gameplay. Just briefly mentioning the boosting system in Modnation Racers and talking about its dual-purpose design would have been nice though.
In case of the game mechanics - there is a possibility for developers to focus on simulated karting. In other hand the typical arcadish mechanics of Kart Racers can be implemented into any type of vehicle without being sized into go-kart.
The item strategy seems a good idea, but the luck that losing players get makes that the unfair battle race.
Tracks are technically good if they're challenging and fit the theme, however the hazards can really harden to complete the race.
11:07 I guess that's why I liked Diddy Kong Racing so much. Not too random, but if you know what you're doing, you win.
I was thinking through out the video that you didn't show modnation racers atall (in my opinion one of the best racing games) so it was a nice easter egg to have the music at the end!
in Motor Toon Grand Prix,instead of picking random item boxes,you have to collect coins to buy your still randomized items. from that you can make your race plan easier
You could have mentioned Crash Tag Team Racing and the coop shotting mechanic, aswell the shortcut/new paths that you unlock during the game
loved the outro music, Mod nation racers is under rated
This is a great video. I wonder what would happen if these games relied less on random effects to reign in leading players and built in some other kinds of negative feedback loops. There was a video on Sonic Riders I saw a few days ago that had an interesting approach. Each player has an energy meter which is used for special moves but it doesn’t regenerate. However you can ride behind the player in front of you you can refill your energy meter. This gives players further back a bit of a boost that the leader doesn’t get. Looking for more of these mechanics could give some great strategic choices to kart racers.
Never heard of that Sonic Transform game before.
You should play it if you want a challenge
Best thumbnail in history
my favourite mario kart track of all time is easily maple treeway. it has the players and CPU's drifting along the branches of a giant forest mid atumn. it combines beautiful scenery with a theme that clearly impacts the level design, as well as being fun to play on. there is one major flaw however, it is not much for new players as you can easily fall off of some of the branches. i think that maple treeway is a near perfect example of a course done right, mind the lack of edge rails
great video!
i wonder how Team Sonic Racing will be with its new team mechanic.
Anyone else play Lego racers?
The portals in that game were way overpowered if you could get an early lead. Friggen Rocket Racer just can't be beat unless you steal his white pieces out from under him
*listening to video*
“Eminem’s Kart Racer”
WHAT!?
Oh... he means the candy.
Sonic air ride for the GC had the most interesting comeback mechanic IMO. It took drafting to its extreme and players infront changed the track for players behind.
you mean Sonic Riders?
6:40 That makes sense. Coming from the old skool I've been rocking that d-pad/stick back and forth in the newer games and getting nothing. Duh!
TFW you're playing as Yoshi driving a motorcycle version of Yoshi while driving on a track that's actually a Yoshi.
Thanks for the excelent deep analysis of the genre, I will use your video for my game design classes!!
2:57 I guess they never miss huh
r/therewasanattempt
Nice Modnation Racers music at the end
This was a good video, despite some points I disagree with. I'm kind of astonished you didn't go into detail about the Swarm powerup from Transformed, or even CTR's powerup system in general. In Transformed, the Swarm would attack first place. However, instead of just being some near-undodgable Blue Shell, the player always had the opportunity to dodge and weave through the Swarm. Depending on placement and circumstance, the player could struggle quite a bit. Maybe they can weave through all of it, but at the cost of having to slow down. Maybe the player could hold onto a Glove powerup and use that as an extra hit point against a Swarm. The strategy behind it, I think, made it far more well designed than the Blue Shell.
CTR had a unique powerup system because of the Wumpa Fruit system you talked about. If you were able to collect 10, your powerups would also become "juiced up." While the CPU never used powerups like the Warp Orb or N.Tropy's Clock, multiplayer matches could potentially see tons of those. But again, there are multiple defensive options. Potions, TNT/Nitro Crates, and backwards Bowling Bombs could block most projectile attacks. But there was also the Bubble Shield. If you had juiced up powerups, the Bubble Shield could remain active until you either fired it, or it got hit by something. So do you ditch it, or do you save it for a potential Warp Orb or N.Tropy Clock?
Powerups in CTR could even be used to activate a couple of shortcuts, like the one in Tiger Temple. A Bowling Bomb, Homing Missile, Bubble Shield, or a forward-thrown Potion could open up a wall, allowing you to cut a huge turn.
Then there's the boosting/drifting systems in both games. Other comments already went into enough detail, but to simply summarize...
CTR basically gave you full control of your kart. When drifting, you controlled your boost. When going off ramps, you controlled your speed and hangtime. Boost reserves could be built up depending on how much boost you could chain and how you were chaining it. A player who knew how to control their boost would defeat a player who didn't by MILES. Any time.
Transformed can initially be a bit deceptive, but there are AT LEAST 6 levels of boost. Knowing how to time your drifting, knowing where to perform stunts (you can actually pull off stunts in some pretty tight areas), and knowing what order to do things in when drift-boosting, hitting boost pads, and using boost powerups, can make or break a race. And this is not even getting into Risk Boosts when using planes. Just look up some professional run of a Time Trial in Transformed. It's actually incredible what can be pulled off in that game. (Now, there are some balancing issues when it comes to the Boost stat, but that's for another discussion entirely.)
I love MK8D. I play it just as religiously as I do CTR and Transformed. And I won't deny that game has its fair share of advanced mechanics. But from my personal point of view, I find MK8D to be rather limited and held back compared to the likes of CTR or Transformed. Maybe that makes it more accessible to all players, and therefore "better" and "more fun." However, I find that's awfully subjective.
If I'm playing a casual game with friends, sure, I'd like to play something like MK8D. But when I'm playing with randoms, or players who are more equal to my skill level, I VASTLY prefer CTR or Transformed. They feel much more competitive and less restrictive in design, and to me, that makes them more fun. :)
Don’t forget the best one of them all
Crazy Frog Racer
2:57 i guess they never miss! huh?
shut up