This is most of the writing advice I knew I needed, because I have no idea which combination, or combinations, of perspective and tense are best for my character and stories... I wish the last part of this video was expanded more, even though I know it is ultimately my job to figure out what perspective and tense I should use. Every combination of perspective and tense opens some doors and closes others as far as what you can do...
It’s so bizarre to me hearing you talk about how you thought 3rd person was the harder one and the more mature one, for me it’s the exact opposite. I usually default to 3rd person because it’s so much easier and simpler for me to be an omniscient narrator than to accurately capture the thoughts, emotions and internal dialogue of a primary character for the entire duration of the story. It feels so cumbersome because I can’t just tell the story, I have to filter everything through that character’s singular experience and point of view, then have to filter it again through how they individually perceive things in their own subjective way. For me 3rd person is much easier because it’s just me going, “This is what happened” and not having to always elaborate or extrapolate on the main character’s biased and limited perception of these events. Weird.
I feel similarly to the way you do. I enjoy writing in third person because it allows me to write in whatever way I feel best encompasses the scene, regardless of how the character would view it. I can still describe the characters' reactions, but it's far enough removed that the reader can tell where the character's emotions start to cloud their judgement. One of the main characters in the novel I'm working on is disconnected from her own feelings and labels other characters by 1-2 personality traits that she doesn't really allow them to work outside of, so it would be difficult to show the seriousness of her situation or the complexity of the other characters if I were stuck in her head the whole time. What's weird is I used to write primarily in first person, but now it's the POV I never even consider writing from.
@@user-mr1qw2bl6w I think I'm the polar opposite of you guys finding 1st person so much easier (especially retrospectives, as though the writing reflects journal entries). That's not to say I'm more skillful at it being a total neophyte to writing and lacking much writing skill in general, but it comes more easily and intuitively to me. The main reason I find 3rd person so difficult is that I feel like the narrator has to be far more observant and know a whole lot more than any single character ever would. For example, a character who isn't well-educated might only refer to a complex contraption as a "thingamajig" in first person (after all, it's basically like the character's own dialogue) as well as communicating, in a thick dialect, how it offends them that people have grown so reliant on such "thingamajigs". When I'm writing in 3rd person, I feel the need for the narrator to precisely specify what it is and describe some details about it in a neutral and reasonably intelligent fashion. When the narrator is bright and observant like this, I tend to feel the need to research endlessly and I get lost in "Encyclopedia mode". I get caught up in details like the precise mechanics of a combustion engine, the way buildings are constructed, botany to describe plants, and so forth. Of course, I'd be quite overwhelmed if I had to write in 1st person the thoughts of a quantum physicist. Then I'd feel the need to research quantum physics endlessly and perhaps even befriend a quantum physicist to observe how he/she talks so that I can role-play one semi-convincingly to a target audience. Most of the time I use the 1st person perspective of more ordinary characters who aren't so bright and observant for that very reason. It allows my not-so-bright character to, say, refer to a Bald Cypress as "Some sort of giant tree growing out of the swamp with needley leaves and mossy branches". I can pass off my own lack of knowledge about botany as being in alignment with the character's lack of knowledge given that they are also the narrator of their own story.
it’s such a relief to hear you talk positively about third person present. i’ve been struggling deciding between 3rd present & past. and i’ve mostly been struggling because EVERYONE talks very negatively about it. but third person present is the right choice, because the past itself is still an active force/role/character in the story. also, i disagree about having an unreliable narrator in 3rd person. characters with mental illness, issues with addiction, and other reality processing problems would be unreliable, even in their own head. thank you for the video!! it was very helpful. ❤️
Shaelin, thank you for sharing your experience and gathered knowledge with us. Your channel has incredible value to all of us out here aspiring writers. I love how you lens your information through how it's impacted your work and process. Never stop sharing :)
Me: here's 29 minutes of detailed analysis on POV People in the comments: I'm Really Mad about the 2 seconds where you said gender was a spectrum. unsubscribing.
Funny thing is I'm Turkish and when I'm writing in Turkish present tense is out of the picture. In Turkish present tense isn't used in storytelling at all to the extent that present tense novels when translated to Turkish are in past tense now, such as The Hunger Games. So these rules are actually limited or diversified by language. This is because present tense in Turkish only implies continuous habits and such, in fact we call it wide tense. So we also don't have headlines in present tense.
Young hearts be free tonight Time is on your side Don't let 'em put you down, don't let 'em push you around Don't let 'em ever change your point of view
I really needed this, I've always wanted to write a novel but I'm in my 30s and can't remember any of my highschool English classes! I've got plenty of ideas but I tend to panic when it comes to the technical side of writing. So glad I found your channel! Thank you :)
Wow, I think you paid attention in class or you're a prodigy. One thing for sure, you're brilliant. My favorite point of view to write and read is third person past tense. :)
I had only a vague idea about point of view, and even less understanding of tense. I’m dense, but gradually emerging from my ignorance with each review of this video. You have an amazing grasp of the skills that you offer, to make an aspiring writer relevant in this artistic realm. Having begun your search for knowledge at such a young age has given you an exponential head start on your detractors, who only wish they had your skills. You will far surpass them in lifelong accomplishments.
Great video Shaelin. Just a addendum. You said that first person past means that the character lives, but that is not always true. There is this Brazilian book called Posthumous Memoirs of Bras Cubas or Epitaph of a Small Winner where the narrator is telling us the story after his death as he is reflecting back on his life.
1st person present tense : YA voice, coming of age, experiences, don't know if character lives. Psychically close. Linear + flashbacks. Less unreliability of the charachter. Harder to notice redundant details. Melodrama heavy. 1st person retrospective: character lives. Most accurate way the person remembers the story. Can garner sympathy, less melodrama. Meditative and methodical. Unreliable charachter +++, can have effect on theme. 2nd person present tense: specific pov. Experiencing on the go,. Charachter is dissociating from the events while they are happening. Specific reason to use it. 2nd person retrospective: retelling the story to themselves. To show pain and guilt. 3rd pe tense limited: immediacy of present tense+ distance of third person. No retrospection. Unknowingly unreliable . Can't have knowingly unreliable charachter. 3rd person limited: unobtrusive, ideal for multiple povs. ( Especially past) can't be knowingly reliable. Cinematic. Psychic distance ++++. Most freedom. Rarely impacts theme. 3rd person omni: (as past tense usually) Anything !!!!!
I just discovered you. This is an albatross around my pencil. I absolutely love this explanation. I will have to listen a few more times to understand all of it. Thank you so much.
I am absolutely in love with your channel, I listen to it while drawing and I feel like I learn so, so much! Right now I'm working on two novels: one in third person limited present tense, and another in first person retrospective, but it is sometimes kind of stream-of-consiousness-y because the narrator is able to tap into the emotions of her younger self.
What are your thoughts on a story written in first person past tense reflecting on the story but addressing a character in the story, using second person. For example, “Your body set off into dreams while mine was awake for every moment. I was aware that all things pass and cautious to not let this one slip under consciousness.” Thank you so much for your incredibly useful videos by the way.
Hi Shaelin, thanks for your amazing content. I'm a new writer and am binging all your videos and learning so much. Learning a lot from this video as well - it's like having a free course!
Wow, I am boggled; mind blown! Now I need to revist some of my stories and consider POV change for those that aren't working. This makes so much sense. Thanks for the information.
Strangely this was exactly the video I needed to really reel in how I want to tell the story. Strangely though, I've mixed tenses and povs depending on the scene. I'll reconsider, but the effect it currently has blending it dramatically increases the stakes and tension of the story I feel.
This is so helpful! Thank you! I'm half way through a first draft rn and I used first POV and past tense, and reflecting if this was the right choice and should I put it to present tense (I'm a pantser and work more on instinct which brings a lot of second guessing haha) but your video made me realise my instinct was right ! and understand why! :'D
I feel like I'm late to this conversation, but I wanted to say this is all excellent content, and thank you for supporting the trans community. It really means a lot! 😊
the thing you term first person referral is also done to INCREDIBLE effect in a magnificent novel called Dear Thief, by Samantha Harvey. that one is right up your alley, Shaelin. :)
Gosh--point of views may be my weak point. I just ignore it, because I thought I could just pick one and write in it from their rules. So thanks! It really helped a lot!
This is a wonderful video. It’s exactly what I need at this particular point in my writing. I am writing a creative nonfiction piece on my grandmother and her life in the very early 1900s in rural Texas. It shows family life as well as how they existed at the turn-of-the-century as well as getting into the depression and World War II. I started off writing in third person but now I am going back and editing to change everything in the first person. First person is really giving me much more depth to the entire story.
Thank you for sharing, this was just the prescription for my tense and head-hopping conundrum. So grateful I found your video; I didn't watch until the end but I'll definitely be returning to this one in the future. The comments, as well, have great information and reassurance. Happy writing, all (:
What about: when can you switch tense within a story? Could you make a video on that? I'm not sure I've almost ever seen it talked about. I've seen published short stories shift from past to present tense for the ending, and of course with flashbacks this can and should be done, but there might be other reasons and it would be really interesting to hear your take on it.
I really hadn’t been thinking at all about the pov of my story before watching this but now I’m obsessed. It could add so much. I might just go absolutely bonkers and do omniscient 3rd person present tense.
3rd person is very hard for me. I feel like when I write it has no heart in it, it feels robotic, so I put a lot of importance on PoV because it's the only thing that seems to work for me lol I was reading The Assasin's Blade by Sarah J. Maas and the tense was on 3rd person, but it limited to the toughts of the character focused on. It was fun reading so far
I was waiting intently for you to get to 3rd person present, because I'm writing a book using that POV. You were kind of dismissive of it in another video so I was worried you might trash on it , but your description absolutely confirmed for me that I made a good choice. Thank you for this interesting analysis!
I think I know the video you're talking about and I'm sorry I was dismissive of it. That video was very old and I was much less educated/nuanced on some craft topics back then, but 3rd person present tense is actually one of my favourite points of views now!
@@ShaelinWrites Oh my gosh, don't worry about it, haha. I'm really loving your videos lately and this was the best video on POV I've ever seen, so thank you!
Thank you SO much for explaining the pitfalls of first person present, and pointing out that it's the standard for most YA. I KNEW something was getting me stuck on my draft, and it was absolutely the repetitive sentence structure that tends to show up with this POV. Something has been feeling off and it's like you pointed it out to me without even reading my draft!!! 😭 seriously thank you ❤️❤️❤️❤️🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Thank you for talking about this. There really isn’t a “bad” POV. I definitely agree with your thoughts-it all depends on the writer and story. For myself, I can’t stand second person because it makes a lot of assumptions of the reader and when it doesn’t match, it really throws me off. But that’s just a taste issue. For some people, they love second person because it immerses them in the story. I’ve done both first and third person and I definitely prefer third. Namely because I jump around from place to place and in most of my stories, the reader needs information my characters don’t have. I’ve never liked present tense just, again, for a taste issue. It’s just my preference.
I was struggling with this issue in my story, I kept coming back to how should I tell it. Now I'm worse. Nah serioulsy, this is amazing info, thank you Shaelin!
Working on a story written in 1st person retrospective - trying to balance the points of retrospect and those points of intense, in-the-moment activity is pretty tough, but so far very rewarding to write! It's a nice chance to tell a story about two characters at once: the version in the story in the past, and the one that's at the end of their development. A note to visitors: don't let the "unreliability" or complexity of the 1st person retro scare ya. Even if the overtness of the storytelling is more on the discreet side, if you allow the narrator to feel things about their own character in their past, it works to better highlight the evolution they have undergone/will undergo through the story.
Thsnk you for sharing these thoughts. I'm also a big fan of point of view. I could talk about this all day. Understanding point of view and its purpose within stories is interesting and makes writing so much easier and fun. Thanks Shaelin.
Your videos are very informative. I must have watched a handful of them and I plan to watch most of your videos. I want to suggest one thing: As your speech delivery is a little faster, not all will be able to grasp the contents. Thanks.
Well I think we can reflect in 1st person present just give a scene like 'well, I'm resting now, I'm going to sit and think over what the hell is being happening with in last few days and make sense out of it'
Spill Simmer Falter Wither is probably the greatest use of 2nd Person Retrospective. And there's a book about a 10yo girl written in 2nd Person Present that was really good (can't remember the name though)
I subconsciously write in 3rd person. I think this has a lot to do with my high school writing classes where they wanted you to default in 3rd pov. I think you have a video mentioning this too. For me when I write 1st pov it's like I'm talking to someone, talking about myself versus telling others about another person as 3rd pov.
I can't wait for the 2nd pov video.. because I do have a whole pov of my book in 2nd person present tense and I love it and I love the reason for it.. :) I also have 2 povs in 3rd person present tense and 1 pov in first person present tense.
Thanks for another awesome video! I had not known about third person present tense and it is really interesting, possibly a great POV for a horror story. When you say third person present tense needs to feel earned, how would one make it feel earned? Thank you
Omg, i struggle to convince myself to write in first person even when I feel the story calls for it. Why does it feel so unprofessional when it clearly isnt?
you make some interesting points. it just understanding the "flavor" when to use. Ice cream, single flavor, multi-scoop, multi-flavor scoop, or multi-scoop turned into a milk shake. some flavors work together others don't. for story telling multi-flavor milk shake pov (head hopping) does not sit well. and like ice cream you have many choices of the same base flavor. if it does not fit, don't eat the ice cream. and never assume everyone loves pistachio garlic jalapeno ice cream. and yes it does exist.
If you write in 3rd person limited, how many POV's would you recommend as a limit? I currently have 8 POV's and wonder if it's too much? (I am going to format the chapters in a way that the reader never has to switch perspectives in the middle of a chapter. Every chapter will be seen from a different POV character and the events are chronologic. Kind of similar to Six Of Crows.)
There is no official limit, as long as every POV is benefitting the story. At a certain point (different for every author/book), the number of POVs can kind of implode on itself, but if you feel each POV is adding something necessary to the book, go for it.
Hi Shaelin, love the video. I know the chance of you seeing this comment is slim, but if you do I'd like to pose you a question. What is your opinion on mixing PoV in a multiple character perspective novel? E.g one PoV character being in 1st person retrospective, and the other PoV characters being in 3rd person retrospective because that first character is also the one telling their stories.
Hi! I want to write books but don't know if I have what it takes or if it's the horse to bet on. I don't just want to write a story, I want to write a story that conveys something, something that asks and answers some question. I understand that you're taking a BFA in writing and I wondered if I should do the same or if perhaps it would better to study for instance philosophy so that I gain a better understanding of the world around us. I wanted to ask you what writers should focus on?
Love the video! And it was very insightful Thanks Shaelin for giving us a rundown on the usual POVs and your own two cents on POV in general! But I'm a lil confused on the questions you posited at the end (specifically 26:43) with regards to helping us answer the main question of "what is our story?" Because most of what you listed seems to be more geared toward first person and second person POVs and not third person, as usually in third person, the narrator isnt necessarily a character that really affects much in terms of the events of the story, especially in third person limited Do you have any alike questions that may apply to such perspectives in that case?
In Brent Week's Lightbringer (the third book) there are several points of views. Most of them are written in third person close, past tense. But every now and then you get a chapter in first person present tense. One of them is from the POV of a weapon. That's kinda weird. XD But it hammers home something, and that's that those chapters are different, in a different time, and not the main characters. It's pretty cool and creates this slightly uncanny feeling. :)
My 2 MG novel WIPs are in 1st person present, which I think suits the youthfulness of the protags, while my MG short story collection WIP is in 3rd person limited past and present since the stories are structured more like tales. I'm really enjoying writing the ones in 3rd person ltd. present, though.
Honestly I think this completely changed the way my book was going. Originally, I was planning for a simple third person past tense limited because there’s different povs and that’s how the books I like to read go. However, I made my outline for the scenes in third person present objective, and I like how that makes the story feel similar to a play or a movie script, so I think I’ll go with that. We’ll see how that goes (^ ^;;;;
These videos are really helpful. The guides are clear as always which I'm greatly thankful for. But, I've been having a problem for the past months. It's been difficult to write-it's not only the motivation nor inspiration, I don't want to have those as my excuse. It's just that, even if attempt to get back on track, nothing is considered satisfactory. I try to write daily but it's just not working for me. I desire to improve, really, but it's creating a turmoil in my already chaotic mind. What should I to cease these thoughts and loss of will?
I am still very confused between third person omniscient and limited, It's kind of annoying me, they are very similar also Frank Herbert in Dune uses 3rd person omniscient but he head hops alot and sometimes focuses on a character making it more limited, he also does alot of head hopping but it works, so can you blend the two? Is it possible to have both blends in your story I keep hearing people say no because it's confusing I'm just so confused in all of this It's very unmotivating to write for beginners
They are actually quite different! In 3rd person omniscient the narrator knows literally everything. They can head hop into any character's mind and share any character's thoughts. If Frank Herbert is writing in omniscient, the head hoping is a natural result of that. Sometimes an omniscient POV might focus more on one character for a time, but it still has the capability of going into any character's head. In a 3rd person limited narrative, the narrator only knows what the main character knows. They can't head hope at all. Their scope of the story is the same as a 1st person narrator. You can't really blend the two, because once a narrative leaves the main character's thoughts, it's no longer limited.
@@ShaelinWrites thank you for that answer I really appreciate it, but with 3rd person limited can you still add backstory to describe something or no? You can do that in 3rd person limited omniscient correct? The character might not know some background info but the narrator does, is that ok, frank Herbert does them both though, he head hops and narrates what's going on from a neutral standpoint
@@barajas27ka I'm a year late to this but I think a prologue chapter might help you communicate the backstory if you think it is necessary for the readers to know those details before your character does without leaving your third person limited pov. But ofc you could just do third person omniscient and make things easier for yourself.
How to Get Filthy Rich in Rising Asia by Mohsin Hamid uses 2nd person present tense, and the conceit is that the narrative is a self-help be-your-best-self book about a boy rising from poverty using sometimes coldhearted means. Theres also a book called And Then We Came to the End by Joshua Ferris where it's a 1st person plural POV where an entire office recites the story like a Greek chorus.
This video is informational. It would have been much more powerful if each perspective / tense had a couple paragraph excerpt in the appropriate style.
Great video, as usual. :) I have a question I don't know how to word into google; my story is in first person present tense. The first chapter is in the present, and the next like five chapters is a flashback. Like my characters basically describes the events of a week ago when the inciting incident happened. Should I do the flashback as in past tense, or keep the entire book in first present? I don't know if you can kind of mix tense. The flashback-I don't know if that's the correct term but I hope I make sense-is all at once because I tried to do it in parts and it didn't really work out. I could try again but I was just curious if I could have it all in a chunk, and then do the right tense. It doesn't matter either way, but I'm finding myself switching tenses. If anybody has an answer, it's greatly appreciated!
Personally, I like to write in present omniscient, present first-person, retrospective first-person, and present third-person limited. I used to feel like first-person was too casual and almost cheating. I've since changed my view and try to write in the POV best for the story. My favorite to write in is present omniscient, very close to the character.
I consider you an authority on narration honestly. This video honestly changed how I think when I first watched it. Also, the emphasis you've put on specificity has changed my writing for the better I think I tried to put this on the wrong video at first, whoops
There isn't one POV that is best for a newbie necessarily, since everyone finds different POVs more natural. Just go with what feels most natural for you to write! If you read a lot of YA it's probably 1st person present tense, otherwise lots of people find 3rd person past tense the easiest. 1st person past tense can be a good choice too!
Would it be so bad to mix povs? I mean i want to write most of the story with 1st person but sometimes i need to write some scenes without her and focus on the other characters. But would it be so confusing for the readers? Should i write it from 3rd person's view? Help please
This is the writing advice I didn't know I needed.
Yess
This is most of the writing advice I knew I needed, because I have no idea which combination, or combinations, of perspective and tense are best for my character and stories...
I wish the last part of this video was expanded more, even though I know it is ultimately my job to figure out what perspective and tense I should use. Every combination of perspective and tense opens some doors and closes others as far as what you can do...
I'm a young writer, and I just discovered your channel. You motivate me a lot, thank you!
I hope you’re still at it :)
It’s so bizarre to me hearing you talk about how you thought 3rd person was the harder one and the more mature one, for me it’s the exact opposite. I usually default to 3rd person because it’s so much easier and simpler for me to be an omniscient narrator than to accurately capture the thoughts, emotions and internal dialogue of a primary character for the entire duration of the story. It feels so cumbersome because I can’t just tell the story, I have to filter everything through that character’s singular experience and point of view, then have to filter it again through how they individually perceive things in their own subjective way. For me 3rd person is much easier because it’s just me going, “This is what happened” and not having to always elaborate or extrapolate on the main character’s biased and limited perception of these events. Weird.
I feel similarly to the way you do. I enjoy writing in third person because it allows me to write in whatever way I feel best encompasses the scene, regardless of how the character would view it. I can still describe the characters' reactions, but it's far enough removed that the reader can tell where the character's emotions start to cloud their judgement. One of the main characters in the novel I'm working on is disconnected from her own feelings and labels other characters by 1-2 personality traits that she doesn't really allow them to work outside of, so it would be difficult to show the seriousness of her situation or the complexity of the other characters if I were stuck in her head the whole time.
What's weird is I used to write primarily in first person, but now it's the POV I never even consider writing from.
@@user-mr1qw2bl6w I think I'm the polar opposite of you guys finding 1st person so much easier (especially retrospectives, as though the writing reflects journal entries). That's not to say I'm more skillful at it being a total neophyte to writing and lacking much writing skill in general, but it comes more easily and intuitively to me.
The main reason I find 3rd person so difficult is that I feel like the narrator has to be far more observant and know a whole lot more than any single character ever would. For example, a character who isn't well-educated might only refer to a complex contraption as a "thingamajig" in first person (after all, it's basically like the character's own dialogue) as well as communicating, in a thick dialect, how it offends them that people have grown so reliant on such "thingamajigs". When I'm writing in 3rd person, I feel the need for the narrator to precisely specify what it is and describe some details about it in a neutral and reasonably intelligent fashion.
When the narrator is bright and observant like this, I tend to feel the need to research endlessly and I get lost in "Encyclopedia mode". I get caught up in details like the precise mechanics of a combustion engine, the way buildings are constructed, botany to describe plants, and so forth.
Of course, I'd be quite overwhelmed if I had to write in 1st person the thoughts of a quantum physicist. Then I'd feel the need to research quantum physics endlessly and perhaps even befriend a quantum physicist to observe how he/she talks so that I can role-play one semi-convincingly to a target audience. Most of the time I use the 1st person perspective of more ordinary characters who aren't so bright and observant for that very reason. It allows my not-so-bright character to, say, refer to a Bald Cypress as "Some sort of giant tree growing out of the swamp with needley leaves and mossy branches". I can pass off my own lack of knowledge about botany as being in alignment with the character's lack of knowledge given that they are also the narrator of their own story.
it’s such a relief to hear you talk positively about third person present. i’ve been struggling deciding between 3rd present & past. and i’ve mostly been struggling because EVERYONE talks very negatively about it. but third person present is the right choice, because the past itself is still an active force/role/character in the story. also, i disagree about having an unreliable narrator in 3rd person. characters with mental illness, issues with addiction, and other reality processing problems would be unreliable, even in their own head. thank you for the video!! it was very helpful. ❤️
Shaelin, thank you for sharing your experience and gathered knowledge with us. Your channel has incredible value to all of us out here aspiring writers. I love how you lens your information through how it's impacted your work and process. Never stop sharing :)
Thanks so much!
Me: here's 29 minutes of detailed analysis on POV
People in the comments: I'm Really Mad about the 2 seconds where you said gender was a spectrum. unsubscribing.
I love all your videos. Just stay you because you're awesome.
don't say that, it's not that bad lol. most comments say it's a great video, and it is!
i subscribed immediately when i heard that actually
It is a great video although not entirely accurate but still no reason for anyone in the comments or you to get mad🤷🏽♂️
@@irispetal hard same.
Thanks for showing those specific examples. Too many other UA-camrs ramble on about POV but don't actually compare specifics. Great job!
Your passion for these POV/tense combinations shows in the best way. Thank you for giving us a good and comprehensive understanding of these mixes.
Funny thing is I'm Turkish and when I'm writing in Turkish present tense is out of the picture. In Turkish present tense isn't used in storytelling at all to the extent that present tense novels when translated to Turkish are in past tense now, such as The Hunger Games. So these rules are actually limited or diversified by language. This is because present tense in Turkish only implies continuous habits and such, in fact we call it wide tense. So we also don't have headlines in present tense.
Young hearts be free tonight
Time is on your side
Don't let 'em put you down, don't let 'em push you around
Don't let 'em ever change your point of view
damn this is the best pov video I've ever watched. it was so in-depth and honestly perfect 😭
I really needed this, I've always wanted to write a novel but I'm in my 30s and can't remember any of my highschool English classes! I've got plenty of ideas but I tend to panic when it comes to the technical side of writing. So glad I found your channel! Thank you :)
Wow, I think you paid attention in class or you're a prodigy. One thing for sure, you're brilliant. My favorite point of view to write and read is third person past tense. :)
@@luminouswords3560 I totally agree. :)
Wow, I love your nuanced videos and how you use examples from different genres, not just YA or fantasy, but also literary as well.
I had only a vague idea about point of view, and even less understanding of tense. I’m dense, but gradually emerging from my ignorance with each review of this video. You have an amazing grasp of the skills that you offer, to make an aspiring writer relevant in this artistic realm. Having begun your search for knowledge at such a young age has given you an exponential head start on your detractors, who only wish they had your skills. You will far surpass them in lifelong accomplishments.
Second person has been my favorite point of view since I realized it was possible.
Great video Shaelin. Just a addendum. You said that first person past means that the character lives, but that is not always true. There is this Brazilian book called Posthumous Memoirs of Bras Cubas or Epitaph of a Small Winner where the narrator is telling us the story after his death as he is reflecting back on his life.
That's true, there are always exceptions!
1st person present tense : YA voice, coming of age, experiences, don't know if character lives. Psychically close. Linear + flashbacks. Less unreliability of the charachter.
Harder to notice redundant details. Melodrama heavy.
1st person retrospective: character lives. Most accurate way the person remembers the story. Can garner sympathy, less melodrama. Meditative and methodical. Unreliable charachter +++, can have effect on theme.
2nd person present tense: specific pov. Experiencing on the go,. Charachter is dissociating from the events while they are happening. Specific reason to use it.
2nd person retrospective: retelling the story to themselves. To show pain and guilt.
3rd pe tense limited: immediacy of present tense+ distance of third person. No retrospection. Unknowingly unreliable . Can't have knowingly unreliable charachter.
3rd person limited: unobtrusive, ideal for multiple povs. ( Especially past) can't be knowingly reliable. Cinematic. Psychic distance ++++.
Most freedom. Rarely impacts theme.
3rd person omni: (as past tense usually) Anything !!!!!
Thank you so much for this, Shaelin. I'm writing a piece in third person/present tense and this has sold me on sticking with it.
I do loveee 3rd person present tense!
Honestly, Shaelin, thank you so much for these videos. You're the most inspiring and helpful person ever, so really, thank you so much
I just discovered you. This is an albatross around my pencil. I absolutely love this explanation. I will have to listen a few more times to understand all of it. Thank you so much.
I am absolutely in love with your channel, I listen to it while drawing and I feel like I learn so, so much! Right now I'm working on two novels: one in third person limited present tense, and another in first person retrospective, but it is sometimes kind of stream-of-consiousness-y because the narrator is able to tap into the emotions of her younger self.
This was fascinating! You have a very thorough knowledge of your craft.
You are on point. "What the story is almost inherent to the point of view----boom!"
What are your thoughts on a story written in first person past tense reflecting on the story but addressing a character in the story, using second person. For example, “Your body set off into dreams while mine was awake for every moment. I was aware that all things pass and cautious to not let this one slip under consciousness.” Thank you so much for your incredibly useful videos by the way.
That's actually one of my favourite techniques !!
So expansive! I think I am going to need a flowchart guiding me in the right direction when choosing point of view lol. You're brilliant!
Oh wow thank you so much. I'm starting a story.. first time I'm writing since high school. I wasn't sure which POV I wanted. You are the best.
Hi Shaelin, thanks for your amazing content. I'm a new writer and am binging all your videos and learning so much. Learning a lot from this video as well - it's like having a free course!
Wow, I am boggled; mind blown! Now I need to revist some of my stories and consider POV change for those that aren't working. This makes so much sense. Thanks for the information.
OMG, Shaelin! This video helped me a lot! Thank you for sharing such essential information.
Strangely this was exactly the video I needed to really reel in how I want to tell the story. Strangely though, I've mixed tenses and povs depending on the scene. I'll reconsider, but the effect it currently has blending it dramatically increases the stakes and tension of the story I feel.
This is so helpful! Thank you! I'm half way through a first draft rn and I used first POV and past tense, and reflecting if this was the right choice and should I put it to present tense (I'm a pantser and work more on instinct which brings a lot of second guessing haha) but your video made me realise my instinct was right ! and understand why! :'D
"PoV is like gender - a spectrum" O BOY AVOIDING THE COMMENT SECTION
underrated comment-
mood lmao
lol i immediately subscirbed to shaelinwrites after hearing that
OH YEAH. Luckily it seems like everyone, for the most part, has gone the agree to disagree mode. Which is relieving
Surprisingly it's not that bad
I feel like I'm late to this conversation, but I wanted to say this is all excellent content, and thank you for supporting the trans community. It really means a lot! 😊
the thing you term first person referral is also done to INCREDIBLE effect in a magnificent novel called Dear Thief, by Samantha Harvey. that one is right up your alley, Shaelin. :)
Gosh--point of views may be my weak point. I just ignore it, because I thought I could just pick one and write in it from their rules. So thanks! It really helped a lot!
This is a wonderful video. It’s exactly what I need at this particular point in my writing. I am writing a creative nonfiction piece on my grandmother and her life in the very early 1900s in rural Texas. It shows family life as well as how they existed at the turn-of-the-century as well as getting into the depression and World War II. I started off writing in third person but now I am going back and editing to change everything in the first person. First person is really giving me much more depth to the entire story.
Thank you for sharing, this was just the prescription for my tense and head-hopping conundrum.
So grateful I found your video; I didn't watch until the end but I'll definitely be returning to this one in the future. The comments, as well, have great information and reassurance.
Happy writing, all (:
What about: when can you switch tense within a story? Could you make a video on that? I'm not sure I've almost ever seen it talked about. I've seen published short stories shift from past to present tense for the ending, and of course with flashbacks this can and should be done, but there might be other reasons and it would be really interesting to hear your take on it.
I really hadn’t been thinking at all about the pov of my story before watching this but now I’m obsessed. It could add so much. I might just go absolutely bonkers and do omniscient 3rd person present tense.
Thank you so much for your advice and helping me write better stories shealin I really appreciate the help.
3rd person is very hard for me. I feel like when I write it has no heart in it, it feels robotic, so I put a lot of importance on PoV because it's the only thing that seems to work for me lol
I was reading The Assasin's Blade by Sarah J. Maas and the tense was on 3rd person, but it limited to the toughts of the character focused on.
It was fun reading so far
I was waiting intently for you to get to 3rd person present, because I'm writing a book using that POV. You were kind of dismissive of it in another video so I was worried you might trash on it , but your description absolutely confirmed for me that I made a good choice. Thank you for this interesting analysis!
I think I know the video you're talking about and I'm sorry I was dismissive of it. That video was very old and I was much less educated/nuanced on some craft topics back then, but 3rd person present tense is actually one of my favourite points of views now!
@@ShaelinWrites Oh my gosh, don't worry about it, haha. I'm really loving your videos lately and this was the best video on POV I've ever seen, so thank you!
First! Love you, Shaelin! Thank you for all the great info! Hope you're doing well.
Thank you!
Thank you SO much for explaining the pitfalls of first person present, and pointing out that it's the standard for most YA. I KNEW something was getting me stuck on my draft, and it was absolutely the repetitive sentence structure that tends to show up with this POV. Something has been feeling off and it's like you pointed it out to me without even reading my draft!!! 😭 seriously thank you ❤️❤️❤️❤️🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Thank you for talking about this. There really isn’t a “bad” POV. I definitely agree with your thoughts-it all depends on the writer and story. For myself, I can’t stand second person because it makes a lot of assumptions of the reader and when it doesn’t match, it really throws me off. But that’s just a taste issue. For some people, they love second person because it immerses them in the story.
I’ve done both first and third person and I definitely prefer third. Namely because I jump around from place to place and in most of my stories, the reader needs information my characters don’t have. I’ve never liked present tense just, again, for a taste issue. It’s just my preference.
Thanks for talking "so much" on this seemingly narrow subject. It will really help me plan my future stories!
I was struggling with this issue in my story, I kept coming back to how should I tell it. Now I'm worse.
Nah serioulsy, this is amazing info, thank you Shaelin!
"It's how you're taught POV in highschool english" oof. I was never taught POV in highschool english. Big sad
I think it's one of those side note subjects where if you lose focus at the right moment you miss it.
I remember you mentioning the ghost story you're planning on tumblr! I have been hooked ever since. Can't wait to hopefully read it one day!!
Working on a story written in 1st person retrospective - trying to balance the points of retrospect and those points of intense, in-the-moment activity is pretty tough, but so far very rewarding to write! It's a nice chance to tell a story about two characters at once: the version in the story in the past, and the one that's at the end of their development.
A note to visitors: don't let the "unreliability" or complexity of the 1st person retro scare ya. Even if the overtness of the storytelling is more on the discreet side, if you allow the narrator to feel things about their own character in their past, it works to better highlight the evolution they have undergone/will undergo through the story.
Brilliant. Your insights prevented me needing to do a lot of reading to find out about point of view.
Thsnk you for sharing these thoughts. I'm also a big fan of point of view. I could talk about this all day. Understanding point of view and its purpose within stories is interesting and makes writing so much easier and fun. Thanks Shaelin.
Nice to know you've learned so much over the past few years. The medium is the message!
Your videos are very informative. I must have watched a handful of them and I plan to watch most of your videos. I want to suggest one thing: As your speech delivery is a little faster, not all will be able to grasp the contents. Thanks.
THIS WAS SO HELPFUL! Thank you!
Well I think we can reflect in 1st person present just give a scene like 'well, I'm resting now, I'm going to sit and think over what the hell is being happening with in last few days and make sense out of it'
Spill Simmer Falter Wither is probably the greatest use of 2nd Person Retrospective. And there's a book about a 10yo girl written in 2nd Person Present that was really good (can't remember the name though)
I subconsciously write in 3rd person. I think this has a lot to do with my high school writing classes where they wanted you to default in 3rd pov. I think you have a video mentioning this too. For me when I write 1st pov it's like I'm talking to someone, talking about myself versus telling others about another person as 3rd pov.
Thank you so much for this valuable information. It helped a lot!
your videos are amazing im going to watch every single one!
Thanks so much for sharing this!
I can't wait for the 2nd pov video.. because I do have a whole pov of my book in 2nd person present tense and I love it and I love the reason for it.. :) I also have 2 povs in 3rd person present tense and 1 pov in first person present tense.
It should be up in a week or two!
@@ShaelinWrites thanks :) I really love your tipps. They help me to stay organised :)
Love your personality and your insight.
As always, great video! Thank you. Will share with friends in hopes that it will help them with any POV questions and issues.
Thanks so much!
Thanks for another awesome video!
I had not known about third person present tense and it is really interesting, possibly a great POV for a horror story. When you say third person present tense needs to feel earned, how would one make it feel earned?
Thank you
I'm so glad HS English didn't stick with me. I feel more opened minded when watching your vids :)
i really like writing poetry in second person present/past tense to put the reader more directly into the emotion
Omg, i struggle to convince myself to write in first person even when I feel the story calls for it. Why does it feel so unprofessional when it clearly isnt?
does unprofessional mean immature
@@Mureirsa depends on the context...
you make some interesting points. it just understanding the "flavor" when to use. Ice cream, single flavor, multi-scoop, multi-flavor scoop, or multi-scoop turned into a milk shake. some flavors work together others don't. for story telling multi-flavor milk shake pov (head hopping) does not sit well. and like ice cream you have many choices of the same base flavor. if it does not fit, don't eat the ice cream. and never assume everyone loves pistachio garlic jalapeno ice cream. and yes it does exist.
Super insightful. Thank you!
If you write in 3rd person limited, how many POV's would you recommend as a limit? I currently have 8 POV's and wonder if it's too much? (I am going to format the chapters in a way that the reader never has to switch perspectives in the middle of a chapter. Every chapter will be seen from a different POV character and the events are chronologic. Kind of similar to Six Of Crows.)
There is no official limit, as long as every POV is benefitting the story. At a certain point (different for every author/book), the number of POVs can kind of implode on itself, but if you feel each POV is adding something necessary to the book, go for it.
Hi Shaelin, love the video.
I know the chance of you seeing this comment is slim, but if you do I'd like to pose you a question.
What is your opinion on mixing PoV in a multiple character perspective novel?
E.g one PoV character being in 1st person retrospective, and the other PoV characters being in 3rd person retrospective because that first character is also the one telling their stories.
Hi! I want to write books but don't know if I have what it takes or if it's the horse to bet on. I don't just want to write a story, I want to write a story that conveys something, something that asks and answers some question. I understand that you're taking a BFA in writing and I wondered if I should do the same or if perhaps it would better to study for instance philosophy so that I gain a better understanding of the world around us. I wanted to ask you what writers should focus on?
Love the video! And it was very insightful
Thanks Shaelin for giving us a rundown on the usual POVs and your own two cents on POV in general!
But I'm a lil confused on the questions you posited at the end (specifically 26:43) with regards to helping us answer the main question of "what is our story?"
Because most of what you listed seems to be more geared toward first person and second person POVs and not third person, as usually in third person, the narrator isnt necessarily a character that really affects much in terms of the events of the story, especially in third person limited
Do you have any alike questions that may apply to such perspectives in that case?
INCREDIBLY HELPFUL
In Brent Week's Lightbringer (the third book) there are several points of views. Most of them are written in third person close, past tense. But every now and then you get a chapter in first person present tense. One of them is from the POV of a weapon. That's kinda weird. XD But it hammers home something, and that's that those chapters are different, in a different time, and not the main characters. It's pretty cool and creates this slightly uncanny feeling. :)
My 2 MG novel WIPs are in 1st person present, which I think suits the youthfulness of the protags, while my MG short story collection WIP is in 3rd person limited past and present since the stories are structured more like tales. I'm really enjoying writing the ones in 3rd person ltd. present, though.
Dune by Frank Herbert is in 3rd person omni and some Tolstoy and older Victorian in origin authors I believe.
SHAELIN SAID TRANS RIGHTS! 😍
We stan!
My novel is a retrospective scrapbook made by two high school graduates remembering their 11th grade year in 1998.
This is so interesting, will definitely rewatch (multiple times)! You missed one question though: Is it point of views or points of view? :D
It's points of view :)
Hey I love your videos! Can you recommend any books on creative writing?
This was really helpful. Thanks Shaelin :D
Honestly I think this completely changed the way my book was going. Originally, I was planning for a simple third person past tense limited because there’s different povs and that’s how the books I like to read go. However, I made my outline for the scenes in third person present objective, and I like how that makes the story feel similar to a play or a movie script, so I think I’ll go with that. We’ll see how that goes (^ ^;;;;
These videos are really helpful. The guides are clear as always which I'm greatly thankful for.
But, I've been having a problem for the past months. It's been difficult to write-it's not only the motivation nor inspiration, I don't want to have those as my excuse. It's just that, even if attempt to get back on track, nothing is considered satisfactory. I try to write daily but it's just not working for me. I desire to improve, really, but it's creating a turmoil in my already chaotic mind.
What should I to cease these thoughts and loss of will?
I am still very confused between third person omniscient and limited, It's kind of annoying me, they are very similar also Frank Herbert in Dune uses 3rd person omniscient but he head hops alot and sometimes focuses on a character making it more limited, he also does alot of head hopping but it works, so can you blend the two? Is it possible to have both blends in your story I keep hearing people say no because it's confusing I'm just so confused in all of this It's very unmotivating to write for beginners
They are actually quite different!
In 3rd person omniscient the narrator knows literally everything. They can head hop into any character's mind and share any character's thoughts. If Frank Herbert is writing in omniscient, the head hoping is a natural result of that. Sometimes an omniscient POV might focus more on one character for a time, but it still has the capability of going into any character's head.
In a 3rd person limited narrative, the narrator only knows what the main character knows. They can't head hope at all. Their scope of the story is the same as a 1st person narrator.
You can't really blend the two, because once a narrative leaves the main character's thoughts, it's no longer limited.
@@ShaelinWrites thank you for that answer I really appreciate it, but with 3rd person limited can you still add backstory to describe something or no? You can do that in 3rd person limited omniscient correct? The character might not know some background info but the narrator does, is that ok, frank Herbert does them both though, he head hops and narrates what's going on from a neutral standpoint
@@barajas27ka I'm a year late to this but I think a prologue chapter might help you communicate the backstory if you think it is necessary for the readers to know those details before your character does without leaving your third person limited pov. But ofc you could just do third person omniscient and make things easier for yourself.
How to Get Filthy Rich in Rising Asia by Mohsin Hamid uses 2nd person present tense, and the conceit is that the narrative is a self-help be-your-best-self book about a boy rising from poverty using sometimes coldhearted means. Theres also a book called And Then We Came to the End by Joshua Ferris where it's a 1st person plural POV where an entire office recites the story like a Greek chorus.
This video is informational. It would have been much more powerful if each perspective / tense had a couple paragraph excerpt in the appropriate style.
Eggcelent! good job.
Great video, as usual. :) I have a question I don't know how to word into google; my story is in first person present tense. The first chapter is in the present, and the next like five chapters is a flashback. Like my characters basically describes the events of a week ago when the inciting incident happened. Should I do the flashback as in past tense, or keep the entire book in first present?
I don't know if you can kind of mix tense. The flashback-I don't know if that's the correct term but I hope I make sense-is all at once because I tried to do it in parts and it didn't really work out. I could try again but I was just curious if I could have it all in a chunk, and then do the right tense. It doesn't matter either way, but I'm finding myself switching tenses. If anybody has an answer, it's greatly appreciated!
Typically you would write flashbacks in past tense!
@@ShaelinWrites thank you! That's what I figured and what I'm editing it as, but I wanted be sure.
Personally, I like to write in present omniscient, present first-person, retrospective first-person, and present third-person limited. I used to feel like first-person was too casual and almost cheating. I've since changed my view and try to write in the POV best for the story. My favorite to write in is present omniscient, very close to the character.
I don't think I've ever read anything in present tense omniscient, but it seems like such a cool POV to try!
I consider you an authority on narration honestly. This video honestly changed how I think when I first watched it.
Also, the emphasis you've put on specificity has changed my writing for the better
I think I tried to put this on the wrong video at first, whoops
I like third person limited. Because my current story my main character is near illiterate so it is helpful to tell his story.
Is it acceptable to write the preface in third person omniscient and the story in third person limited? thanks! :-)
I LOVE THIS!
What would you say is the best tense to use for a short story for a newbie?? I'm so confused! But I have an assignment on a short story. Thanks :)
There isn't one POV that is best for a newbie necessarily, since everyone finds different POVs more natural. Just go with what feels most natural for you to write! If you read a lot of YA it's probably 1st person present tense, otherwise lots of people find 3rd person past tense the easiest. 1st person past tense can be a good choice too!
@@ShaelinWrites ah much appreciated for the reply :) I keep hearing about YA, no idea what it means?
@@The8thdecade YA is young adult!
@@The8thdecade YA is young adult novels, like John Green and Rainbow Powell's books that are about teenagers.
Superb!
Hi! I watch your videos regularly, especially during NaNoWriMo month! Do you write first drafts on paper or type them on the computer?
I type them!
awesome video, great thesis
Would it be so bad to mix povs? I mean i want to write most of the story with 1st person but sometimes i need to write some scenes without her and focus on the other characters. But would it be so confusing for the readers? Should i write it from 3rd person's view? Help please